Driving Class Gone Wrong/Buggy Wreck [Archive]

arena run

Mar. 2, 2009, 01:31 PM

Sylvia's answers to the questions posed by Cielo Azure

Would you have:
1) stayed in the seat and held tight to the reins and tried to keep your horse calm from the driver's seat?
Hm, heck no.

2) got someone to head while you got out and then you held the horse from the ground?
Yes, to begin with. But it would just seem prudent to have carried it one step further and unhitched the horse from the buggy. Only saw one person who'd done this.

3) tried to get someone to head your horse (I noticed there weren't headers in the ring), while you sat in the driver's seat,still holding onto the reins?
We all saw what can happen when you do this. Although... it's possible that the lady in the seat couldn't get out due to physical restrictions. In that case, all she could have done was to just sit there. BUT... If I'm sitting in a cart and am where I can't get out and there's a loose horse who has proven he/she does NOT want to be caught and is kicking at the buggy... you better believe I'm wanting OUT no matter what. Get me some folks over and GET ME THE HECK OUTTA MY BUGGY! And at the very least get my horse UNhitched from the buggy I'm sitting in. And you better believe I'm gonna be fairly vocal about it til one of the two things happens.

4) It seemed like different drivers employed one or a combination or the above strategies and I know horses are all different but what would you do?
You just can't answer that question until you're faced w/that situation. BUT it is the prudent thing to have a plan in place and practice it. Whether that plan is put forth by the individual driver (seems like at least a couple in that class had this type plan) or put forth by the arena... things like this need to have been thought out beforehand.

5) And would any of these strategies made any difference to the horses/drivers in the ring?
Oh decidedly. ANYTHING would have made a difference to that one lady who stayed in her buggy. And as for the folks who stayed seated in their CHAIRS in front of the announcer's booth.... oh boy. What was their plan???? <lol>

6) What was the safest thing to do?
Looking at it from the end point... the safest thing to have done was to get all the other horses out of the arena, which is what eventually happened, but through no real 'plan'. You can probably bet those show organizers and that arena had a plan in place next time though.

Maybe have a 'catch pen' on one end and have some 'pig boards' (of a nature) out in the announcer's area. If a horse gets loose you put everyone else to the inside and then form a human fence w/the boards or whathave you... herding that loose horse into the catch pen (which would need to be longish and narrowing in order to safely stop the horse).

One other thing would be to have a cowboy in the arena to rope loose horses.

It does seem that these particular horses (the first one expecially) just did NOT want to be stopped or headed off in any manner though. Did ya'll notice the first loose horse literally ran down a guy who was standing in front of him, waving his arms, and didn't give ANY ground. Looked like he just got smeared into the arena dirt.

7) How could the announcer/stewards/help/volunteers/etc been used better. What, IF ANYTHING, could have been done differently by ground personnel (others?), once the train wreck started?
Have folks IN PLACE to head and unhitch the other horses and have the announcer ready to give prepared orders. Two people (capable people) per horse/buggy. In the case of the lady who possible could have been physically unable to get out of her buggy... an additional person assigned to that team to get the driver out.

8) I noticed that they all seemed to be driven with a snaffle, again, would leverage on the bit helped stop this from ever happening?
It does seem that, from what we see, nothing would have mattered to that first horse.

9) Did the original driver actually bail or was he thrown? Looks to me like he was thrown. Possible by jerking backwards to avoid being kicked.

10) Shudder, what about those little show carts? Well, it did look as though they held up well. :) Maybe have some sort of mechanism where by the cart detatches from the shafts OR the shafts detach from the harness when the cart flips. ?? Like the stirrups that release when a rider falls off. Not sure how that would have helped stop the horse but it would have been that much less stuff dragging behind.

Mainly... Train the horses to be handled, and stopped, in large areas. sylvia

arena run

Mar. 2, 2009, 01:44 PM

I've just got to ask... reckon the blinders played a role in this? Looking the footage of the first horse slamming into the horse (whose driver was still in the buggy, right at 1:54 or so into video)... that horse never even slacked. It was like the horse didn't see ANYTHING in front of it.

Tell ya what... that guy who caught the horse (right then) had his hands full keeping a hold of it, too. He thought fast and grabbed what he could as the horse blew past him. Looked like he had to twist an ear in the process, too.

Wow... just a major wreck. sylvia

Sithly

Mar. 2, 2009, 02:14 PM

Wow! My heart was pounding watching that footage. It just kept escalating. Lot of innocent people got mowed down. I almost thought it would have been better to rope that horse's legs out from under him right away. He may have been injured, but it probably would have cut down on the other casualties. It was obvious that he was not going to stop.

Honestly, I don't know what I would have done if I was driving, but I would probably have set a new land-speed record unhitching my own horse! :eek: Then I would try to stay out of the way.

It's good that some discussion is coming out of this, though. Next time I show, I'm definitely going to have a plan.

goodhors

Mar. 2, 2009, 02:44 PM

That is one of the ugliest videos I have ever seen. First loose horse was about unstoppable, no care for himself or anyone/anything else.

The announcer needed to say something, folks in the arena STILL were not aware or attentive, after loose horse had gone around NUMEROUS times!! Horse almost hit a man out in the middle, who was not paying attention. I think that second loose horse is the same one who got hit in the first part, but didn't run, got calmed down. Then got hit AGAIN, lost his driver!

I do not believe blinkers were much a part of the problem with first horse, as horse losing all his brains, or they never got engaged in the first place. He acted more ticked off than truly frightened when he started kicking. It all appeared rather deliberate, kicking, hitting things instead of turning aside. Did not react like normal scared horses do, moving away instead crashing into things.

ANY driving class, there should be a plan in place for a runaway, where folks keep moving along the rail, loose horse NORMALLY won't try jumping on them. He may go beside them and catch them with his vehicle. However to all go to the center, making a BIG TARGET area is ALL WRONG!!!

Moving along the rail, the harnessed horses are in motion, can quickly be funneled out the gates as they get near it. Moving horses let the loose horse flow around them a bit easier, not be targets he can't or won't avoid. Gates can be closed for loose horse to go by, then opened quickly to remove other animals. This where the Announcer is speaking to TELL THE DRIVERS AND GATE FOLKS what to do!! The removal of driven horses from ring, in case of a runaway, has always been the plan at shows we worked or attended.

Whoever caught the first horse DID ear him down to prevent losing his grip on horse. Other folks got damaged in their efforts before that. Horse DID NOT care who or what he hit, and he was moving FAST.

Gathering in the center was a poor choice for all. Horses want to be together, and after second horse lost his driver, that horse just wanted to be with the others. Circled and wove in and out of the ring center the whole time, wiping out vehicles and most everyone left standing, until he tripped on his harness. He did go down hard. Not fighting to get up either. Scared and hurt, reacting badly, with no person giving him directions after being hit so hard by first horse. Did not look like his reins were grabbable, not sure what was flapping on his chest, but it tripped him real hard.

I don't know if I would try unhitching or not. Pretty sure I
would NOT unhitch! Rather be driving my horse, tight on the wall, instead of standing still and waiting to be hit! Have to undo several harness parts with me on the ground, with no header. Would probably make you a target in that time period.

I would be driving toward the gate, yelling for him to open it!! I also would have my whip, to defend my horse and self from the loose one. MIGHT deter him away from me, or jumping on my cart from behind.

You do your best, each setting is different in an accident or wreck.

Sure did not appear that ANYONE in the management had a clue about what to do. No directions, aid, from announcer or anyone. I thought the white coat guys were grooms for the carts, head them, uncheck when lined up. They were pretty useless milling about. The whole thing brings to mind a very bad word, which describes going from simple to expansive, in things going bad!!

Watching made me sick, but you just can't seem to shut it off! Won't watch it again, BLECH!

goodhors

Mar. 2, 2009, 03:01 PM

Roping the loose horse SOUNDS COOL! However, to my knowledge, there has never been a roping cowboy on Staff, for an incident like this.

I love the roping skills cowboy may have, but unless he could throw a figure 8, grabbing BOTH those forefeet, a cowboy on foot was not going to stop him either. One foot only in the rope, MIGHT slow horse down, but won't throw him or even hold him much.

Even forefooting him, cowboy with rope has to be able to HOLD the rope, to stop the horse going forward. Horse weighs LOTS more than a cowboy on foot with heels in the dirt. The guys who do the forefooting are usually mounted on their good rope horse, to manage the weight on the end of the rope as horse goes down.

Cowboy with all the skills needed, is just not that common, especially at the fancy harness show rings. Even then, he still would have to work around all the other folks and horses in the ring wandering about, getting in the way!

The white hat hero, with a good rope, who just happens to be on hand for this mess would be a miracle! The heros like this in books, are in the FICTION section. Not going to happen except in the movies.

Sithly

Mar. 2, 2009, 03:16 PM

Hang on, what is the standard procedure for a runaway? I thought you were supposed to go to the center and let the runaway have the rail. Is that wrong?

They did try to rope one of the horses, but it looked like they missed. Hard to tell for sure, but it looked like they missed with the rope, and at the same time, the cart shafts caught the gate and it broke free. Then the horse tripped on loose harness and went down.

arena run

Mar. 2, 2009, 04:24 PM

Yeah... not much certain details about that wreck to be found. One would think that, yes... having the horses stop would help the loose one want to stop, too. Obviously, this is an idea in error. At least for the horses in that ring!

Having the driven carts stay ON THE RAIL and being driven out as they come to the gate seems, far and away, the best solution.... to be implemented immediately and not waiting for the horse to careen into everything and everyone.

And yes, it does seem 'smart' to let the loose horse have the rail but horses are herd animals and they feel much safer in their herd. If you notice, when the announcer says to let the horse out the gate the one the camera was following (the second loose horse that the first one hit broadside)... that horse makes a decided turn to go WITH the other horses.

Just a bad, bad, bad situation all together. Couldda, shouldda, wouldda. sylvia

twofatponies

Mar. 2, 2009, 04:56 PM

Wow, that was a wreck.

I saw a fairly well-handled (I thought) similar wreck at a big show - a class of Percherons, in show carts. One horse out of the dozen got a touch close to the rail, and the hub of the cart caught on a large banner advertisement, and tore it loose. The sound spooked him and he bolted forward and tried to jump the six foot wall of the arena. He failed, spilled the driver, and bolted with the cart dragging, and all but three of the other horses bolted or spooked hard in reaction. Carts overturned, ladies in sequined jackets tumbled to the ground. Being Percherons, they weren't as fast and longwinded as the Arabians in the video.

The announcer called for silence, and the gates opened, and the entire ground crew poured in - the guys who change out the jumps for the jumping classes. There were like a swarm of ants. They had 6-8 guys on each horse in a matter of moments, helping the remaining drivers down, unhitching the horses and leading them out. The three horses who did not panic were already being headed by groundsmen by this point, and had moved to the center of the ring. They each got a ribbon once the remaining wreckage had been cleared.

Renae

Mar. 2, 2009, 05:05 PM

It is standard in a class when a horse gets loose (be it a riding or driving class) for all entries under control to gather in the middle and wait for the loose horse to get caught. Loose horses will usually run around on the rail, and if all the other horses are together in one place it is easier to keep them safe. goodhors I have seen other driving classes at Arabian, Morgan and Saddlebred shows where horses have gone loose over the years on occasion, drivers always come in the middle, this is about the only incident I have seen where the loose horse wasn't stoppped quickly and the class resumed. You are all wrong in saying what the people in this class did was wrong. It is so easy to sit back and judge and say you could have done better, isn't it.

Loose horses do not normally take this long to catch. This one was obviously in a blind panic and if any drivers had stayed on the rail it surely would have just run over the top of at least the cart the other hosre was pulling if not the other horse.

On the www.trot.org forum there are comments from someone who was at the show.

Really this kind of incident is not common. At all. This video is from 9 years ago.

Jill by Arabian division rules you must show in country pleasure driving in a snaffle with either a side check or overcheck. I myslef would have stayed in the cart holding the lines until I had a header in front of the horse so that I could decide what was safest to do next.

goodhors

Mar. 2, 2009, 05:54 PM

Renae, thanks for the comments from the other side. I have never seen a mess like this go on so long either. Or escalate into such a bad mess.

As you say, that horse was "not home", not normal in his actions.

With my 100% hindsight view of the film, there is no way I would have chosen the center of the ring. Rail might have been almost as dangerous, but at least you have some room to move. And your whip might have been some use in self-protection. Unlike the center gathering of horses, carts and people. They could NOT get out of the way! And as you said, horses want to be together, so the loose ones ran thru AGAIN AND AGAIN to cause more damage in the ring center.

Of course it is easy to say "I would do this or that" when scene is happening or you see the results of horse caused carnage. But seeing this mess, might make you think of doing something else, if being in the middle was not a safe place.

This has to be a very isolated instance of bad horse in a class. Now you tell us it was 9 years ago. I have not heard of any instances like this before. With the quantity of horses wrecking, being hit and duration of loose horses shown in the film, the scenes shown are NOT common in any breed ring, driving classes.

Shall we speculate that because of all the other, abnormal things that happened on film, that common methods of behaviour during a loose horse period, heading into center, was this time only, the wrong choice to make?

mjhco

Mar. 2, 2009, 06:03 PM

I know a few who were there that day. A couple horses and carts did get out right when this started. They happened to be right by the out gate--they got out fast. Then the gate was closed.

Having been in the middle of a wreck (not nearly so bad as this) if you cannot get out safely normally you go to the center of the ring.

The ring master was injured. Took a shaft to the chest.

When things go bad in a driving class, they go bad fast. I suspect not many of the horses were driven again. I suspect not many of the drivers have driven again.

mjhco

Mar. 2, 2009, 06:09 PM

Oh, and the guy with the rope IS a real cowboy who also happens to show horses.

Galloway Farms, L.L.C.

Mar. 2, 2009, 06:24 PM

It was like watching a multicar pile up. Just one after the other after the other. The last horse was so scared, and in need of help, it just kept running to the middle in some sort of strange attempt that the group of people could do something for it.

I drive our pony with my daughter next to me. I have often wondered what I would do if this happened. We show in classes with horses not always ponies. I always think my knee jerk reaction would kick in....but I have somewhat of a plan if it doesn’t. I would protect her first and foremost....trying to get her to safety first...by a judge or ring Stuart...or people on the rail. Then I would unhitch. I can unhitch our pony in about 2 sec.....I just reach over his back. I have practiced this at home with my daughter.....I just pray to GOD I never have to do this.

Did you notice how all the loose horses run to the other horses......inevitabely plowing them over...I think a herd instinct kicks in, but they are to afraid to stop..... Because of the flight! That darn cart is so scary without a person in it....why is that?

My thoughts and prayer go out to all involved in this accident.

Best
Christy

HCF

Mar. 2, 2009, 06:33 PM

And I'll tell ya what. That lady in the blue flowered shirt might be on this forum, I don't know, but WHY did she stay in her buggy during that mess? Truly. (NOTE: have since thought that maybe this person had a physical handicap that prevented her from disembarking.)

The person who posted the video is the trainer of both of the horses that ran loose. In the comments below the video, he said that woman in the flowered shirt is handicapped and that is why she did not initially get out of the cart. He said that once her horse was run into and she fell out, she had to be dragged to safety.

Amazingly, he also stated that no one, horse or human, was seriously injured. Just some bumps and scrapes.

My heart is still pounding!

Kyzteke

Mar. 2, 2009, 07:35 PM

All I know was that no one was "seriously" injured. I don't know anything about it. But I have general questions for everyone: If you were one of the "sitting targets" (the other exhibitors who had brought their horses into the center of the ring), would you have:

I'm not a driver, so this maybe the entirely wrong answer, but I do know panic'ed horses go for other horses...that's a given. So if they wouldn't let me take my horse OUT of the arena, then I would have unhitched it from the cart, PRONTO (if such a thing is possible) and had it stand in an area where it could see the other horse & what was going on.

I would be very curious to hear from more experienced drivers, 'cause that was sure one train wreck!

twofatponies

Mar. 2, 2009, 08:15 PM

I'm not a driver, so this maybe the entirely wrong answer, but I do know panic'ed horses go for other horses...that's a given. So if they wouldn't let me take my horse OUT of the arena, then I would have unhitched it from the cart, PRONTO (if such a thing is possible) and had it stand in an area where it could see the other horse & what was going on.

I would be very curious to hear from more experienced drivers, 'cause that was sure one train wreck!

In my experience unhitching (in an emergency) is something requiring two people. As a driver I don't want to get out of a cart in a situation like that without a header holding my horse, and I can't unhitch safely without a header holding my horse. There is (with my cart at least) a period during that process where I am on the ground holding the reins and trying to pull leather straps loose (or cut them), and if my horse bolted I would have very little control from the ground, might get hit by the cart, plus my horse would be HALF attached to the cart.

I have had to unhitch once, on the road. My trainer was driving, we had a near accident, and I was the one who jumped down, got my horse's head, and held her while he unhooked her. It would have been very difficult if not impossible for one person to handle.

So for me, in that scenario, the bestest thing would be to have someone, anyone, appear, head my horse, and then I could jump out and do an emergency unhitching. One reason I never drive alone, even at home in the arena...

War Admiral

Mar. 2, 2009, 08:47 PM

My thoughts:

For one thing, this wreck doesn't actually start where everyone here seems to think. IMO where the whole mess gets started is with the horse driven by the lady in black and white, who breaks to canter right in front of (what is to become) Loose Horse #1. Soon-to-be Loose Horse #1 then breaks to canter too, tries to pass a horse outside on the rail, clips the cart of that horse, then richochets into the rail, unseating the driver.

Would you have:
1) stayed in the seat and held tight to the reins and tried to keep your horse calm from the driver's seat?

No.

2) got someone to head while you got out and then you held the horse from the ground?

No.

3) tried to get someone to head your horse (I noticed there weren't headers in the ring), while you sat in the driver's seat,still holding onto the reins?

I'd have had a header in; I would also have tried to place my horse as close to the judge's stand as I could possibly get to give the loose horse NO room between me and the stand. In this particular circumstance I would have absolutely unhitched after about 3 revs of Loose Horse #1. As Renae says, it is EXTREMELY rare for a loose horse scenario to go on this long. Usually they are caught very quickly or are forced to stop one way or another.

Unhitching in a loose horse scenario goes against the grain for me, b/c you're always going to have that scary moment where your horse is "half unhitched" and I'd be wary of the loose horse barreling in at that point. But in this particular case I'd have felt that was a calculated risk worth taking.

4) It seemed like different drivers employed one or a combination or the above strategies and I know horses are all different but what would you do?

As above. As Renae says, bringing the horses to the center is SOP at these shows. I have to say this is the first time I've ever seen a loose one head for the center. For those thinking they would have stayed on the rail, please take another look at the beginning of the video and tell me if it still looks like a good idea to stay on the rail to you!

5) And would any of these strategies made any difference to the horses/drivers in the ring?

Impossible to say, really...

6) What was the safest thing to do?

A couple of things spring to mind. First off, IMO that venue isn't really designed for this kind of thing. Notice that there is no eye contact between the gate crew and the ring - they have a big fat wall in front of them and can't see what's going on. Venues that are suitable for cowboy stuff are not necessarily suitable for equestrian stuff!

This is where, though I hate to say it b/c I know how hard it is for female announcers to get gigs, I do blame the announcer somewhat. "Time out" in the breed show ring usually means something simple like a lost shoe; everybody pulls into the center, stops and waits. The announcer should have made it clear to the gate crew that there was a loose horse. With permission from the ringmaster, she should also have called for "headers in".

The ringmaster should have assembled everybody in line and gotten them out one at a time - but this would have been *tremendously* difficult, if not impossible, because of the gate crew not having a sight line. I've seen it done successfully (and have also been on the gate crew when it was done successfully!), and it requires split-second timing on the part of ringmaster, gate crew, horse, driver and header. Even if the gate crew had walkie-talkies (which we don't know), it would have been extremely difficult for the gate crew to open and close that type of gate quickly enough to get a horse and vehicle out, without letting one of the loose ones out, while manipulating a walkie-talkie as well!

So: bad choice of venue, unspectacular handling by the show staff, and inexperienced whips. Which is why my driving trainers have always advised me to check the number of entries if I have a green horse, and pick the smallest class, and compete HC if I have to! (Which I did: I put Avery in with the drafts his first time out, because they only had two!)

Sure glad nobody was hurt. From reading the YouTube comments, it seems one of those horses not only drove again but ribboned at nationals later.

enjoytheride

Mar. 2, 2009, 08:56 PM

To answer a few questions... Nobody was seriously injured. The original driver (who was in his 80s and on a very well trained horse) had a broken thumb. A few people had heart trouble (it was very hot and humid). The original driver turned the horse to the outside in an attempt to keep the horse on the rail. The lady that stayed in the cart had a double knee replacement and could not get out of the cart on her own. All of these horses drove again. This class requires a snaffle bit and blinders (on another BB people thought the blinders caused the panic and were unsafe).

The person with the rope missed the horse and caught the shaft which caused the cart to flip.

This class had already gone in the reverse direction and this was a finals class so these horses had already been driven in this ring before. These were not green horses. This was an ammy class so had people from under 18 all the way to 80.

HCF

Mar. 2, 2009, 09:11 PM

The video has now been taken down....

arena run

Mar. 2, 2009, 11:35 PM

The person who posted the video is the trainer of both of the horses that ran loose. In the comments below the video, he said that woman in the flowered shirt is handicapped and that is why she did not initially get out of the cart. He said that once her horse was run into and she fell out, she had to be dragged to safety.

Amazingly, he also stated that no one, horse or human, was seriously injured. Just some bumps and scrapes.

My heart is still pounding!

<lol> Interesting that he would claim the training of the two horses who ran and ran and ran and ran and ran..... <lol>

As for the lady w/the knee replacements.... I thought it was odd that they should just leave her lying there on the ground. The video didn't catch everything that happened w/her but you could sort of tell that one guy leaned over her, and then took off. It would seems she maybe said, "I'm fine! Get my horse!". <g>

The video is gone. ;( I was wanting to show the hubby. sylvia

enjoytheride

Mar. 3, 2009, 06:12 AM

2enduraceriders

Mar. 3, 2009, 08:21 AM

Very well put!
I just wish I could see the video now... :cry:

My thoughts:

For one thing, this wreck doesn't actually start where everyone here seems to think. IMO where the whole mess gets started is with the horse driven by the lady in black and white, who breaks to canter right in front of (what is to become) Loose Horse #1. Soon-to-be Loose Horse #1 then breaks to canter too, tries to pass a horse outside on the rail, clips the cart of that horse, then richochets into the rail, unseating the driver.

Would you have:
1) stayed in the seat and held tight to the reins and tried to keep your horse calm from the driver's seat?

No.

2) got someone to head while you got out and then you held the horse from the ground?

No.

3) tried to get someone to head your horse (I noticed there weren't headers in the ring), while you sat in the driver's seat,still holding onto the reins?

I'd have had a header in; I would also have tried to place my horse as close to the judge's stand as I could possibly get to give the loose horse NO room between me and the stand. In this particular circumstance I would have absolutely unhitched after about 3 revs of Loose Horse #1. As Renae says, it is EXTREMELY rare for a loose horse scenario to go on this long. Usually they are caught very quickly or are forced to stop one way or another.

Unhitching in a loose horse scenario goes against the grain for me, b/c you're always going to have that scary moment where your horse is "half unhitched" and I'd be wary of the loose horse barreling in at that point. But in this particular case I'd have felt that was a calculated risk worth taking.

4) It seemed like different drivers employed one or a combination or the above strategies and I know horses are all different but what would you do?

As above. As Renae says, bringing the horses to the center is SOP at these shows. I have to say this is the first time I've ever seen a loose one head for the center. For those thinking they would have stayed on the rail, please take another look at the beginning of the video and tell me if it still looks like a good idea to stay on the rail to you!

5) And would any of these strategies made any difference to the horses/drivers in the ring?

Impossible to say, really...

6) What was the safest thing to do?

A couple of things spring to mind. First off, IMO that venue isn't really designed for this kind of thing. Notice that there is no eye contact between the gate crew and the ring - they have a big fat wall in front of them and can't see what's going on. Venues that are suitable for cowboy stuff are not necessarily suitable for equestrian stuff!

This is where, though I hate to say it b/c I know how hard it is for female announcers to get gigs, I do blame the announcer somewhat. "Time out" in the breed show ring usually means something simple like a lost shoe; everybody pulls into the center, stops and waits. The announcer should have made it clear to the gate crew that there was a loose horse. With permission from the ringmaster, she should also have called for "headers in".

The ringmaster should have assembled everybody in line and gotten them out one at a time - but this would have been *tremendously* difficult, if not impossible, because of the gate crew not having a sight line. I've seen it done successfully (and have also been on the gate crew when it was done successfully!), and it requires split-second timing on the part of ringmaster, gate crew, horse, driver and header. Even if the gate crew had walkie-talkies (which we don't know), it would have been extremely difficult for the gate crew to open and close that type of gate quickly enough to get a horse and vehicle out, without letting one of the loose ones out, while manipulating a walkie-talkie as well!

So: bad choice of venue, unspectacular handling by the show staff, and inexperienced whips. Which is why my driving trainers have always advised me to check the number of entries if I have a green horse, and pick the smallest class, and compete HC if I have to! (Which I did: I put Avery in with the drafts his first time out, because they only had two!)

Sure glad nobody was hurt. From reading the YouTube comments, it seems one of those horses not only drove again but ribboned at nationals later.

arena run

Mar. 3, 2009, 10:04 AM

I don't see how its the fault of the trainer that the horses ran in a blind and total panic. Who can predict a huge accident like that and the carts tipping over? Maybe the video was deleted because of all the Monday morning quarterbacks on several different BBs. There are people that think these horses are saddlebreds, think that they are running in pain from their tail sets and gigantic bits (no tail sets and snaffles), think they are green, think that arabians are dangerous under saddle or in a cart, think that the horses were rogue and didn't care about the people they ran into, etc.

Never said he was at fault... I was making a funny. You know, a joke. Ha-ha? I gave notification that it was a joke by preceding and following the comment with "<lol>". :yes:

As far as why the video was taken down, I would feel quite confident that, human nature being what it is and horse education for the general masses being what it isn't, there were tons of inappropriate comments. It's also possible that some of the folks in the video wanted it taken down and the video owner obliged.

The horses were being... horses. Horses are, by their nature, dangerous when running loose in an enclosed area. :eek: sylvia

arena run

Mar. 3, 2009, 10:10 AM

War Admiral

Mar. 3, 2009, 10:30 AM

No matter how it got started, it was, as has been noted, a fracking mess. :) sylvia

True dat!! :lol:

olehossgal

Mar. 3, 2009, 02:29 PM

I go along pretty much w/ War Admiral.

I would have tried to unhook, IF I could have a competent header--but not without one! ("Fine" harness has no breeching, attached ONLY via whatever tug attachement(wrapstraps, Tilbury, French are most usual for that kind of harness, I've seen)-and traces, so *should* be fairly quick to 'undo', IF you have decent help and the horse isn't already acting up.
I would have stayed in the cart if no header was available...not a good choice, but IMO, the best, under the circumstances.
I agree w/ trying to let other drivers out of the ring, but in this situation, it seemed a real challenge to do so!
goodhors is right; as one who has spent some fair time working livestock, I can testify that it is largely imprudent to try to rope a fullsized, full-out running animal while on the ground! You are VERY unlikely to be able to 'hold' it IF you succeed in roping it, even if you 'forefooted' it...I could tell that the attempt to rope, if that was what it was, failed...but seemed to have 'some' effect--the horse was thrown off-balance by 'something'(looked to be like entanglement in dangling harness), and went down--but not because it was successfully roped!
Agree it is SOP for others to go to center ring, stop and line up, when trouble occurs...but clearly, it may not ALWAYS be the 'best answer'.
Breed ring rail driving is something I do no longer (and I spent some years doing so with success)---and I drive MINIS! Too much ignorance on the part of 'trainers' and whips, increasingly 'going the way' of OTHER breed rings, where perceived 'flash' is of prime importance to basically uneducated judges,many of whom may NEVER have driven, or if so, only in the breed ring, and horses have idiotic things 'done to them' before going in the ring, to make them 'show themselves'(!!), raucous ringsiders....and the like...has only gotten ever worse in the mini breed show ring since I began there in '86, and besides, I actually made it my goal to learn more about PROPER driving practices...thank goodness!
What a blessing that no person or horse was seriously hurt!

Margo in New Mexico

eponacowgirl

Mar. 19, 2009, 11:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03YcT74h5Mg

I can't even imagine.

Turn your sound on. It's all I could do to just watch in horror. :dead:

tbracer65

Mar. 19, 2009, 11:47 PM

wow....something I've definitely never seen at a show.

I'm assuming they had to put the other horse down? ....they didn't show him get up

shireluver

Mar. 19, 2009, 11:48 PM

That had to seem like an eternity for the people in the ring. SCARY!

asanders

Mar. 19, 2009, 11:58 PM

One of the comments said that all the horses were OK.

But that was quite horrific.

Duramax

Mar. 20, 2009, 12:11 AM

The scary thing is that it looks like they have some sort of loose protocol for this... "keep the horse on the outside" and all the people who appear to be vets that are in the ring? Does this happen often? :confused:

Woodland

Mar. 20, 2009, 12:29 AM

Geez people stop yelling and chasing! Pull to the center - unhitch your horse and avoid the train wreck!

Most importantly SHUT UP screaming NEVER helps! And chasing a frightened prey animal - Good God - no brains!!!!

I have seen this happen at the old Fox Valley Saddle Club in Elgin to a NSH named Color Guard - it was horrific! There too people thought screaming and chasing were the best reaction - it's a forehead whacker to be sure!

OK - now that we know all the horses and people were OK - can we make Arabian comments :lol: Or should we all join hands and thank GOD almighty it wasn't a bunch of stupid draft horses :yes:

Either way - it just makes you think YIKES!!!!

silver2

Mar. 20, 2009, 12:44 AM

To be fair a lot of the people sprinting around the ring initially are grooms scrambling to hold the other horses. For which I'm sure the drivers were very thankful. And the people shooing the loose horses to the outside are doing absolutely the right thing because they're wearing blinkers / pulling a cart and they don't want him running into the center group and taking out another cart. They need to catch him on the rail. That's also what the announcer is telling them to do.

The guy who jumps in front of the horse is just crazy. I have no explanation for him. An the crowd sounds like a 5th grade class trip showed up at the wrong moment, lol.

What fun it must have been when this was a common occurrence on public streets!

nashfad

Mar. 20, 2009, 12:47 AM

those folks in the white coats are referred to as "headers" & yes, they go out & hold the horse inthe line up---personally, if I'd been caught up in that mess, the men in white coats would probably have had to haul me out!! That was an awful situation.

TheJenners

Mar. 20, 2009, 03:00 AM

What a horrible, helpless feeling. And poor, frightened horses.

enjoytheride

Mar. 20, 2009, 06:24 AM

dizzywriter

Mar. 20, 2009, 06:31 AM

Holy crap! Mr. DZ is a cde driver and the whole thing scares the pants off me. Controlling (or not) a ton of animal with just two pieces of yarn. I think driving is way scarier than riding. eek.

Texarkana

Mar. 20, 2009, 07:39 AM

I saw that video a couple weeks ago. That is possibly the worst horse show accident I've ever seen. It doesn't get any easier to stomach the second time around, either. I'm relieved to hear the people and horses were OK.

If any "good" came from watching this video, I learned if heaven forbid I find myself in a similar situation, get to the middle and unhitch as soon as possible. And get the heck out of the ring if you can.

Mali

Mar. 20, 2009, 07:47 AM

Well, driving is one of the few remaining disciplines I haven't tried. I might just keep it that way after watching that video! I almost had a panic attack just watching it on my computer, can't imagine actually being a part of something like that. :eek:

Jumpin_Horses

Mar. 20, 2009, 08:08 AM

wow, prayers to everyone involved :eek:

the dude with the rope (at the end) is my new hero.

Woodland

Mar. 20, 2009, 08:21 AM

This wreck happened in the Illinois State Fair Colosseum - perhaps one of the scariest places for horses in my opinion. The sound echoes down in that arena and the light can make the horses think they need to jump over a non existent object. I have had many a steady horse snort, spook, spin and jump in there over the last many decades. I never find that at any other Colosseum - hmmmmm

fargonefarm

Mar. 20, 2009, 08:31 AM

I cannot see the video (dial-up internet on a dinosaur computer) but I will say this: I have friends that drive and show Percherons and it is perhaps the grandest and most beautiful thing you can watch. I have been to a few shows and was lucky enough to have my very good friend and expert driver allow me to be in the wagon with him as he showed two of his horses in a hitch class. It is awesome. These horses are so amazingly trained - we riders should be so lucky to have our horses trained so well. Disasters can happen in any discipline. Heck, I'm an eventer and my own sport is scaring the pants off me lately:eek: I encourage everyone to go to a Draft show and see how cool it is. Just watch your feet :winkgrin:

trubandloki

Mar. 20, 2009, 08:58 AM

So relieved to hear that all horses and humans were OK!

Bluey

Mar. 20, 2009, 09:20 AM

When I was in our instructor system, we had to learn to drive also and drove single, double and assisted in other kinds of driving.

I saw the worst wrecks I have seen with horses when driving and I always wonder when people say they will drive when they are older, as they seem to see it as safer.

I think that driving is more dangerous, because there is just so much more that can go wrong when you add a contraption and all that harness to a horse than when just a saddle and rider.

Driving is fun and many enjoy it, but when things go South, it causes the biggest wrecks.

Glad that no one was killed in that wreck.:eek:

Maybe they ought to think to have a mounted cowboy handy with a rope, as they do in chuck wagon races, so if some horse/team gets out of control, there is some way to stop them before they kill themselves and some of those around them.

Jealoushe

Mar. 20, 2009, 09:26 AM

If everyone formed a line, they could have stopped the horse, it trampled a lot of people but they were just one. A line of people flapping their arms might have helped....maybe?

Just scary

trubandloki

Mar. 20, 2009, 09:39 AM

If everyone formed a line, they could have stopped the horse, it trampled a lot of people but they were just one. A line of people flapping their arms might have helped....maybe?

Just scary

It trampled another horse and ran into lots of things. I doubt a line would have changed its mind.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Mar. 20, 2009, 09:46 AM

I know the steward of the show. This was an amature driver class but the horses were all experienced. The horse that started it has never acted up before, drove after this accident, and nobody knows what set him off. All the horses were fine, the horse on the ground had friction burns from getting a leg over the shaft but he got up and was fine.

whew. Every time a horse flipped over I freaked (I'm sure my students thought I was getting bad news about my grants). Shhhhh...

As long as I know they are all okay. But how horrific,a nd how much worse it could have been.

arabhorse2

Mar. 20, 2009, 10:02 AM

Like Woodland, my first thought was why the heck didn't they get the OTHER horses to the inside and unhitched?!

The first horse was blindly panicked, as evidenced by him plowing over people, running into other horses, and over their buggies.

After the second one got loose, I couldn't believe it. I could tell from the way he fell that he wasn't seriously hurt, but seemed to be tangled in the long reins and harness.

This appears to have been a Regionals competition, which means these drivers were trying to qualify for the Nationals.

Scary, very scary, and the crowd shrieking like a bunch of 10 y/o girls didn't help the horses. I'd wager that most of those in the stands were horse people, so they really have no excuse for acting like that.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 20, 2009, 10:06 AM

If it had been I, and I drive a 1900lb Percheron, I would of immediately gone to the center of the ring, had my groom or whomever come right out, if they could and unhitched!! And those carts, what do they weigh? 30 or so pounds? And yea, the tail looks oh so pretty flowing but they WILL and CAN get caught up in the lines and I wonder if that wasn't part of the problem. And their head sets, good god! Lets pull it to their chest and drive.

I have been in a wreck before with two Percheron/shire cross geldings and believe me, it was no way in Hades we were going to stop those boys, worse yet, we were in a wagonette giving rides a a fair. The team started to spook backwards, I was at that time, in the back with the passengers when the whole thing over turned. The drive tried to hold the lines but they bolted foreward, everything going with them. As they ran, the wagonette was bouncing all around, hit 4 cars then they jumped a cement median, ripping the wagon off the traces, breaking the harness and they kept going. Several MP's went after them lights and sirens blaring, I am running as fast as I could then stopped long enough to tell an MP on foot to tell the fools in the cars to shut their crap off!

We got them back, ripped shoes off one of the geldings, another had a gash in his cheek, cuts, scrapes, and I thought, that is the end of my driving career. Never did go out with my friend with that team again, I just did not trust them nor did I have the confidence anymore.

Second time I saw a wreck was at a fun day last year in Culpeper. I was to the side with my mare hitched to a long log waiting to do the obstacle, suddenly my husband runs up to us and unhitches the single tree from the log and pulls it away and tells me to step up. I turn and there is a team of halflingers dancing and spinning, they had spooked as they were a green team and were trying to get away from their driver. Within seconds they slammed right into Smoke, who you saw brace herself and she never flinched! I was so proud of her but she did have a left back swollen hock from the double tree slamming into her. If she hadn't been right there that team would of gone into the crowd.

katie16

Mar. 20, 2009, 10:57 AM

I noticed that the person (woman?) in the cart of the poor horse that got run into/over by the first horse (and subsequently got loose himself), appeared to be the only driver who did not get out of the cart. And I have to say how WONDERFUL her horse was about standing there quietly (until it got plowed into). I think later, while her horse was loose, this same driver was sitting near the end of the fenced area within the middle of the ring. I came to wonder if possibly she/he was physically handicaped in some way? If, so I would think the situation would have been that much more frightening for that driver.

Miss Aria

Mar. 20, 2009, 11:00 AM

That was absolutely awful to watch; thank God no one got seriously injured. Since those were seasoned driving horses, I suspect something seriously spooked the original horse and all those people screaming and chasing sure didn't do a lick of good in helping the situation.
I had a sleigh overturn once while driving it; two other people were in it. The poor horse panicked at first but he was trained to voice commands and I calmly called "Whoa" to him several times. After about the 4th Whoa it clicked and my horse simply stopped dead in his tracks, sleigh turned sideways, lines cascading around his legs. He was trembling and snorting and poised for flight but bless his heart, he trusted me enough to rescue him. Once I got to him he calmed down immediately.
But that was a "private" situation; show scenarios are so much more chaotic.

CA ASB

Mar. 20, 2009, 11:51 AM

Yes, the woman who stayed in the cart was handicapped. You'll notice that she was lifted from the cart when her horse ended up being run into and she was sitting in the middle of the ring.

trakehner013

Mar. 20, 2009, 12:14 PM

WOW that is pretty scary.

SteppinEasy

Mar. 20, 2009, 04:10 PM

The first horse show I can remember attending as a child involved a fatal accident involving a driving horse. The horse in the ring spooked at something, came over the low outdoor rail and his front foot cracked into the head of a spectator sitting along the rail in a lawn chair. The guy was taken away to the ER immediately, but pretty much everyone knew he was already dead. I don't think the horse and driver were injured.

Interestingly, the show is a popular local one and to this day, the spectators sit right along that rail in their lawn chairs.:eek: And they pay extra for the privilege!

Personally, I've taken one driving lesson in my life and was bored stiff, but even at that, I'll never forget the image of that accident. Unless it's with minis or hackney ponies, driving scares me!

drmgncolor

Mar. 20, 2009, 05:01 PM

that was horrid. absolutely horrid. I am so thankful that no horse or human was seriously injured.

I hate to say that I have had a similar accident, but alas, not in a show ring or a ring at all. My horse spooked while driving and kicked me out the back of the jog cart. She ran over a mile and was finally caught by a smart neighbor who used his Ford Explorer to herd her. I can't imagine what could have happened if he had not seen the horse running loose, hit a tree and proceed down the road with sparks flying. I went to the ER... I was pregnant and probably in mild shock with a messed up back and a possible broken hand. My mare went into mild shock. Vet inspection revealed only minor abrasions. The cart was totaled, wheels crushed. seat missing. The harness broke in ONE spot. We were very, very lucky.

Driving, in my humble opinion, is actually more dangerous than riding. No more for me, thank you very much.

dogchushu

Mar. 20, 2009, 05:06 PM

Holy cow! That was pee-in-my-pants scary! I can't imagine being there. I'd feel so helpless.

arabhorse2

Mar. 20, 2009, 05:11 PM

Drmgn, my nearest neighbor also had a driving accident.

She rides and drives, so teaches all of her horses to do both.

She was driving one of her greenies down our quiet, country road, and he spooked at something. He took off, and she couldn't get him stopped.

She got thrown out and bashed into a tree, and he went running off down the road. The only reason he finally stopped was because he got the cart caught on something, and couldn't break free.

She spent quite awhile recuperating, and hasn't used that horse since for driving.

Unfortunately for her, she recently broke her left ankle while riding. This is the same ankle she broke 3 years ago on a trail ride with me and another rider, and the doctor said she'll be lucky to keep her foot this time, because the bones are completely shattered. :no:

I think maybe God is trying to tell her something, and it's time for her to quit riding and driving. Poor woman!

Trixie's mom

Mar. 20, 2009, 05:12 PM

after watching the video i can name about 5 of the nations best riding/driving trainers in the arabian industry were in that video. the man with the lasso was Bob Hart...he works cows with his show horses on a regular basis.

scary for sure...

driving horses is scary...not sure i want to try it...

Gunnar

Mar. 20, 2009, 05:25 PM

I saw an accident like this at a Morgan show when I was a kid! To this day I would never get in a cart! :sadsmile:

enjoytheride

Mar. 20, 2009, 05:39 PM

The woman who stayed in the cart had a double knee replacement and could not get out of the cart.

The did remove horses from the ring at first, but then it was safer to stay in the middle and keep the loose horse to the outside.

These horses are arabians, the tail carriage is natural, and they are in snaffle bits. They are not gingered or chased with fire extinguishers, that is a different breed.

Three horses were treated for mild injuries. Three people went to the hospital with minor injuries, including the ringmaster who decided to step in front of a horse. The lasso missed the horse, he either went down when the lasso caught the shaft or the gate.

This class was a qualifer and I believe they held a meeting and the judges placed the top five based on what they had already seen but could not place a winner. They could not run the class again because there were not enough functioning carts!

This was a very large class and had been split so these horses had already shown in this arena the day before, and this was the reverse so they had already gone in the other direction in this class.

I believe it is standard to go to the middle and keep the loose horse on the outside until it stops (which is what the people in the white coats were doing).

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 20, 2009, 09:06 PM

For those who think that driving an equine in a cart is the most dangerous thing we can do with our horses, I beg to differ. If you do a search on line, you will find that riding your horse is the most dangerous....

"A new Canadian study says horseback riding is more dangerous than motorcycling, skiing and football.

The University of Calgary-Calgary Health Region study recommends that riders wear helmets and safety vests to avoid life-altering injuries.

The research team says a review of 7,941 trauma patients at Foothills Medical Centre over 10 years found that 151 people were severely injured while horseback riding.

And almost half of the those who were injured were veteran riders who required surgery.

"For many of the people we interviewed, their riding accident was a life-changing moment," Jill Ball, an occupational health therapist at Foothills, said in a release Sunday.

"These are riders with an average of 27 years of experience at the time of their injury, riding horses that were also experienced and well-trained.

"I love horses, and grew up on horseback, but now I wear a helmet and vest when I go riding."

The study published in the American Journal of Surgery says the hospital injury rate for equestrian activity was more than three times higher than for motorcycle riding.

Researchers discovered a high incidence of chest injuries.

They were also surprised to learn that most riding accidents occurred in wide-open spaces on firm ground on sunny, summer afternoons.

"Previous studies assumed that major accidents on horseback were caused by rookie riders on untrained horses or bad weather - something we now know is simply not true," said Dr. Rob Mulloy, clinical assistant professor of surgery at the university.

Mulloy, who is also a trauma surgeon, said while most riders said their accidents were preventable, only nine per cent were wearing helmets.

"That tells us we need to focus our efforts on experienced horsemen and women, reminding them to respect their training and embrace the safety equipment that save lives."

ALSO:

http://www.localriding.com/five-common-causes-of-equine-accidents.html

I question the lady who has the handicap driving. I would have thought if she was incapacitated, did she not think if something were to happen, as it did, what would happen to her? She could of been seriously injured or worse. And I also have to wonder, how well trained are those horses? How are they kept? Are they worked every day or kept in a stall until needed?

I had hoped that Thomas or someone with more experience than I would come in and comment. I think it is unfair to assume because of this that everyone would assume that driving is the worst and the most dangerous when in fact I am sure it is not. I worked at the local hospital here in Fauquier County and we had more equine related accidents due to riders being thrown off their horses while hacking out, while foxhunting, or just being stupid.

Woodland

Mar. 20, 2009, 10:53 PM

It trampled another horse and ran into lots of things. I doubt a line would have changed its mind.

No, but the aftermath would have required additional ambulances!

CA ASB

Mar. 20, 2009, 11:04 PM

Belplosh -

I would venture that it's because there are more riders than drivers. Also, I'd bet that study didn't cover equine driving activities. Having witnessed riding and driving accidents, I can say with certainty, every driving accident has been really bad. Riding accidents run the gamut from mild to deadly.

As to why a handicapped person might be driving ... well, if it was the only horse related activity that I could do, yes, I would do it and I am aware of the dangers.

toowoomba2

Mar. 20, 2009, 11:22 PM

It was interesting to watch how the herd mentality of the horse worked against everyone in this case. Usually, in a hunter class, if someone falls off and the horse gets loose, you just wait for him to join the group and it usually settles to be caught.

In this case, the herd mentality was way too dangerous because the horse was still being driven forward by this "monster" connected to them, so couldnt' stop when it met up with the other horses. The blinders made it impossible to judge where his buddies were, so he knocked all over them.

That's always been my biggest fear when driving my mare. If I get separated from the cart, there's no one to tell her to stop because the cart automatically signals them to drive forward with all that clanging and banging. Only when the cart discintegrates do you have a chance to stop them - which is not good either.

summerhorse

Mar. 20, 2009, 11:59 PM

My friend was badly hurt when her shetland broke the check rein (or maybe she didn't use it that day) and took off. I think he destroyed the cart too. And he was a LITTLE shetland!! I like to train my horses to ground drive but I have no intention of getting in a cart behind one! Not after all these youtube and "when good animals go bad" videos!!

Beasmom

Mar. 21, 2009, 12:54 AM

The horses that got away lost their bridles and blinkers pretty fast. Once they can see the cart "chasing" them, there's no stopping that runaway until the cart is disconnected or destroyed. Even then, those horses had yards of lines flapping around them as well.

What a mess! Glad the injuries were relatively minor.

Years ago a friend's husband mistakenly removed the bridle of their driving horse before he unhitched the cart. Horse saw the cart hitched to him, panicked, and ran through a fence.

Fairview Horse Center

Mar. 21, 2009, 01:57 AM

Horrific video. Glad no one was seriously injured.

I can't find it now, but I remember another video a year or so ago of a loose driving horse in a crowd of people. Some guy runs out along with the horse, and makes a perfect grab to stop the horse. This video shows just what happens if that perfect grab does not happen. Better to let them run it out.

nightsong

Mar. 21, 2009, 02:19 AM

What fun it must have been when this was a common occurrence on public streets!
I don't think you had Arabians driving on the public streets very often. Especially well-fed, show-tuned Arabians. Although the book I was reading last night said that the British nobleman character (in this historical novel) customarily travelled in acarriage pulled by eight black Arabian stallions.:sigh:

lewin

Mar. 21, 2009, 02:22 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uhID7H8THc&feature=related

Loose percherons. But they did manage to catch the horses quickly and everyonne kept from screaming.

Thomas_1

Mar. 21, 2009, 05:07 AM

I hadn't realised that this posting was over here. For some reason though the moderators seem to think it's better away from Driving!?!?

The sport of driving is a fantastic sport. I personally don't understand why so many wait so long to start it. My mother showed hackney horses in harness and my first memories of proper driving lessons was when I was just 9 years old - though I know I started earlier than that. I was extremely fortunate in having perhaps a couple of the best drivers in the world take me under their wings and mentor me from youth. They'd forgotten more than I'll ever know. One was IMO one of the all time great horsemen in the world. Sadly he died earlier this month at the grand age of 91.

I've had fantastic opportunity because of driving and been places and met people that I would never have had the chance to experience had it not been for driving. More than anything though I've had a lifetime activity which I've actively pursued for pleasure, sport, profession, business.

Hence it saddens me when I see driving so tragically represented and practiced.

I had this video sent to me for opinion by several folks. By PM here and also via email from another couple of professional drivers. I'd also posted a thread about it in the driving section.

Since I first saw it I've had numerous emails from other professional drivers and instructors about it and all are of the same view as me.

Never in our lives have we seen anything that is such a total cock up!

From start to finish.

PLEASE don't anyone who's not driven think this is typical. It's not.

Just goes to show what can happen with a load of appallingly harnessed horses, duffer drivers, inappropriate and darn right dangerous carriages and well meaning but stupid stewarding.

It's a salient message to all about the "have a go Joe" brigade!

Thank goodness I'm all Uppity about safety and doing things right!

I saw here there's some debate about whether riding or driving is more dangerous.

Driving horses are generally trained a lot better than riding horses. Trained to stand for hours. Trained to obey voice. It's extraordinarily rare to see driving horses messing about at such as shows or competitive events. BUT it does happen. Sadly more frequently.

Regrettably the genuine skill of driving is in decline even though there's an increase in number of those who are driving.

Not surprising really. Driving used to be commonplace as a sport, a form of transport, a way of life. Then with the advent of mechanisation it went so it became an elite minority sport and with some pockets of use in traditional agriculture. It's an expensive hobby and there's no getting away from that. However a lot of folks kid themselves into thinking they can do it on the cheap with dreadful harness that isn't fit for purpose and doesn't even fit! And carriages! Well I'm loathe to call them that!!! For some reason folks seem to ignore all the strong messages from experienced drivers about carriages and go and buy cheap crap on pneumatic tyres and wire spoke wheels and that are WAY too light and WAY too low. You can't drive a horse sitting under it's backside! You can't stay in a carriage if the carriage is tipping back because the shafts aren't level! You can't drive a horse with the carriage up to the horse's hocks and with no britching on and no tug stops (or brakes if it's a 4 wheeler) so that if something happens it runs forward and hits the horse!

Then to top it all, there's a heck of a lot of self taught drivers who were are passing on their lack of knowledge to other self-taught drivers.

With driving there's a heck of a lot of stuff to learn. All that harness for a kick off! Now I'm a licenced and tested Light Harness Horse Instructor and have become totally unshockable by what I've seen from "experienced" drivers. The saving grace has been an utterly biddable and willing horse and good luck. However I retrain horses and I've done way way too many driving horses that are being done purely because they're owner has had them harnessed incorrectly or put to a poorly or appallingly balanced carriage.

Truth is that when there's a bolt with a driving horse it's always always always going to be more dangerous. This video started with a poorly harnessed horse put to an appalling vehicle that was totally intrinsically unsafe and unbalanced. The horse was nervous the driver hadn't got a clue! The driver turned the situation from bad to worse to a disaster!

This was a genuine bolt and a genuine example of what happens with a genuine bolt. The horse totally loses its mind. It heads off in blind panic and totally and utterly oblivious of it's own safety.

When most folks say a horse bolted they merely mean a spook and scoot!

If an incident happens with a riding horse and maybe its a spook and scoot .... you fall off and it tanks off having "lost its brain" - the worst that will happen to the horse is it might get its leg through its rein and the rein might snap or its saddle might twist round and under it. the horse might if it gets a leg caught and the reins don't snap .... fall down or it might be in a total blind panic and run into something. But 99 times out of 100 the horse just does a short gallop and then regains its mind and just stops and no real long lasting harm done.

Accidents with a driving horse by their nature just aren't like that and intrinsically are potentially always much more serious - lets say you have the spook and scoot. Remember when the horse does that he's just being a flight and fright animal and he's looking after himself as he momentarily "loses his brain". He's not thinking "oh and I've a carriage behind me", so the carriage might hit a pothole or a ditch as the horse spooks and scoots or a bit of harness fails or shifts and the carriage tips because the driver drastically moves or the carriage gets caught on something and then a bit of harness fails - the very event in itself puts on a "command" to the horse that you don't want: all of a sudden something breaks and slackens and puts pressure elsewhere so there's a command and then the spook and scoot occurs ... but as the horse begins its run away lets say the carriage tips the driver falls out - When a rider falls off he merely risks being hit by a hoof and an awkward fall on the hard ground. The driver in addition to that also has the vehicle to contend with. He hits the deck and then gets smacked with or run over by a great heavy carriage. And trust me, they hurt and do SERIOUS damage!

So the driver has intrinsic higher risk of more serious injury.

So the horse is now off on its flight and fright response and because the carriage is being dragged with a failed harness slapping and flapping and staying with the horse, then the horse's mind stays switched into its flight and fright mode and what would be a spook and scoot or short burst with a riding horse continues on as the horse gallops. The carriage continues often smashing into things - all of which further terrifies the horse and it cannot switch its mind back to "nothing to fear" mode.

So with driving more so than riding, I'd say that it's vital as in VITAL to get it right from the onset. To really know what you don't know! Not to mistake "experience" for competence and skill. Experience is too often just time spent.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 21, 2009, 06:59 AM

Thank you Thomas, I had hoped you would come in and post on this. What I think all of you don't understand is, most, not all, driving horses are well trained. The video of the Percherons getting loose could of been a lot worse, yes, but...the big difference is the training. Did you see any of the other drafts getting panicky? No. Again, I too stress training, training, training.

The times I have seen accidents happen was either a young or inexperienced team or that and the driver was green. I too can contest that if you have someone teach you who has no formal training or know how, yes, you pick up bad habits and your knowledge is not correct. Before I do anything, I have a friend who is knowledgeable and experienced come and watch what I am doing then I ask, is there anything I did wrong? Could I have done it better, etc. I take driving classes, I talk to those who are professional at this. Last time I took a driving class, I didn't know my mentor called the teacher who is a good friend of his to ask if he would work a little more with me as I do on occasion tense up, I can't tell you how many times I got my knuckles wrapped with the end of the driving whip for not properly checking my lines up, I know better now!

I am VERY VERY fortunate to have a well trained draft mare. When it comes time to retire her I am going to be hard pressed to find another Percheron that is as good as she is. I honestly contribute half my success driving to her, she was trained to listen and listen she does. That too, I humbly think, is another factor when driving, you HAVE to trust your animal and you and they need to know what you are doing.

So please, don't discount driving because of what you have seen. If anyone is ever out in my area, please, come on over and I will take you out on my cart and you can see how enjoyable it is. Better yet, come out and watch me ground drive Smoke, I will even let you try it yourself in our field. Like anything equine related, it has its dangerous and it has it's thrilling. If we all only focused on the bad we would never ride, drive, or do anything else but let them be out in the field getting fat and sassy and enjoying them from afar.

Doodlebug1

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:09 AM

Unfortunately accidents like this do happen - and not just in driving. Yes, it may be more complicated with driving in that when a horse bolts the fear understandably seems to escalate when the carriage doesn't follow smoothly or flips etc.

The inexperience seemed to come from some of the drivers and stewards (hmmm, to the kamikaze one, I'm frankly lost for words....) but particularly the crowd.

I was teaching at Pony Club a long time ago and had a 30 year old pony drop dead in front of parents and the other (about 8 year old) kids. There were very few people who reacted appropriately there. I was only about 17 or 18 at the time and I knew I wanted the other kids out of the way but surrounded by panicky and bossy parents the whole event turned into a hideous mess with parents (I kid you not) trying to persuade the kids the (very dead but still twitching) pony was fine by trying to pull it to it's feet. ACK!

This happened at Rolex 3DE last year too. I was sadly at the Laine fence - and people were indescribably stupid. I'm sure if in a rational state of mind they looked back at their actions they would be mortified - but honestly, about 20 people ran directly in front of Karen O'Connor's horse (the Laine accident was at fence 4 - Karen was at about fence 23 - there is no way Karen would have seen or even been able to come into contact with Laine/Frodo as the course was completely separately fenced off) - but people ran onto the course just on the landing side of the fence she was due to jump in front of Karen and her by now tired horse (she must've had about 3 more fences to jump) as it prepared to take off.

How that didn't cause another accident I will never know. Luckily, once pulled up, Karen was experienced enough to deal with the situation (but imagine being told by hysterical crowds that Laine and Frodo were dead (as the do-gooder-lets-hold-up-the-course-people assumed) when you still had to finish the course on a tired horse). Imagine if it'd been someone less experienced who allowed the horse's adrenaline level to drop and fatigue to set in before asking it to pick up and jump home...

Whether in any of these situations you will ever have enough people to react calmly and professionally in a way that is in the best interests of the horse is debatable - I'd guess not. By nature I'm someone who'll deal with death, blood/guts fairly calmly in the crisis but then dissolve into a little puddle of uselessness when I get home, that works well in times like in the video - but isn't necessarily 'right'.

Horses have to learn to cope in different show environments and sometimes, however good a rider, driver, jockey you are things can get beyond your control and you need those around you to act in everyone's best interests - sometimes it happens but sadly sometimes it doesn't happen.

In the driving video the commentator person seems to have handled the situation well and asked competitors to walk and then come into the centre relatively quickly - she also urged people to be quiet, managed to keep her voice relatively steady and continued to instruct people not to try and stop the horse, but to keep it out on the rails and to let the adrenalin to come down naturally and for it to run it's course. Not sure what else she could have done. It's only a very few people acting inappropriately who managed to turn a small drama into a major catastrophe.

Really, that happens in all disciplines, not just driving!

Equitate.

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:14 AM

I would be SO scared:eek:. The announcer handled the situation beautifully though.
Was the crowd horsey? I couldn't imagine having a crowd of people squealing at my loose horse. When a group of horses get loose at H/J shows (yes it happens...) I've only heard "WHOOOAAAAAAAA", never "EEEEEEEEEEP!" like a pack of schoolgirls.
Then again one of the previous posters said that the acoustics were funny in this stadium. but still... Shut up people.

MistyBlue

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:17 AM

That driving video was a cluster****....I have to assume it was a green class? With green stewards and a green crowd? Yeesh.
FWIW...the modus operandi of a bolt in a class should not be "Everyone scream and blindly panic too!" :no:

bird4416

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:20 AM

trubandloki

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:21 AM

Thank you for your post Thomas.

This video is scary. I can not believe the number of horse people (assuming they are horse people since they are posting here) are willing to base their entire opinion of a horse sport from one bad video. :eek:

Bad things happen every where.

Tiffani B

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:49 AM

I've worked with many trainers who work their driving horses at home without blinkers. It IS much safer. Unfortunately the rules specify a blind bridle so you don't have a choice in the show ring...

These carts have shaft stops on them. The cart cannot run up on the horse at all... Since we are not driving at speed or on hills, britching has been eliminated and is never found on "light harness" in any breed. Take a look at the manufacturer's catalogs - Freedman's, Hunts, Walsh, Smuckers - to see that it's simply not available, even if desired. I'm not sure it would be allowed in the show ring, either. It would not have helped in this situation, anyhow. The carts did not run up on the horses' behind. A horse put properly to cart will be far enough forward that the cart, even if it moves up as far as the shaft stops will allow, will never touch the horse at his stride extension.

Also, the carts are not flimsy nor do they weigh 30 pounds. My show cart is probably close to 350 pounds (I think the bill of lading was 345#). It is solid wood, including the oversize wheels. The carts with the pneumatic wheels do weigh less, but they are still rather heavy. If you notice, none of the carts broke. The harnesses broke, but the carts remained intact. To take such a beating and not fall apart is testament to their sturdiness.

I do agree, seated below the horse is not a good place to be for driving. My cart has extra tall wheels and I am noticeably higher than when I had my older cart with smaller, pneumatic tires. The most common thing I have seen in the ring when a horse gets out of control is the driver falling out the back, or falling into the basket. The carts have a spring system for comfort, but at high speeds, it acts against the driver, bouncing them around.

One thing that I don't care for in the ring is the level of experience (or lack thereof). Many of these drivers drive at most once a week for a month or so, before they're deemed competent to show, and then they might have a practice drive once in awhile right before a show. I once lent my cart to a customer of my trainer to show his horse in a driving class. He had shown twice before... and had only driven a total of maybe six times. Needless to say, during the class, when they called for the walk, he took too much hold on the horse, who started to back up, and almost backed into the rail. Fortunately it happened right in front of me and I was able to jump into the ring, grab the horse and walk it forward. The chain of "could happen" events flitting through my mind was horrible...

I don't lend my cart to anyone anymore, for any reason.

I take my life in my hands every time I enter that gate. All I can do is drive my horse with an eye on everyone else.

Renae

Mar. 21, 2009, 08:50 AM

Before more know it alls come on here and post how much better they could have done or how they never have accidents in the first place because they are so prim and proper:

Both horses that got loose were very seasoned driving horses.

Both coincidentally came from the same trainer's barn, that trainer being very experienced with driving horses.

The horses are being shown in snaffles as that is what is permitted by the rules of the class they are showing in.

The driver of the first horse was an older gentleman (80 I have heard). It was never clear why his horse acted the way it did in the first place.

The driver of the second horse did not get out of her cart because she had recently had surgery and could not exit the cart on her own power.

The second horse that got loose was a National Champion Driving horse that same year.

All the horses in the class were safely driven again.

It was a freak accident. The trainer put the video back up on youtube so people could learn how to better handle these accidents. This sort of accident could easily happen anywhere that a group of horses is being driven together. Other sorts of accidents happen too, such as the videos I have seen of combined driving horse's harnesses breaking or the whip and navigator falling fromt eh carriage and the horses running fre about the course and spectators either without or with a carriage attached!

Accidents of this sort in the video being discussed are in no way common at all at these types of shows.

Thomas_1

Mar. 21, 2009, 09:05 AM

I know nothing about driving but am curious about one thing. Wouldn't it be safer to train the horses to go in an open bridle so that they can see what's around them and see the cart and know what it is and why its there? I'm sure there is a logical reason for doing it in blinkers but it seems to me the horses would be safer if they were accustomed to the wheeled giant always following them and they would also have better vision all around. Absolutely not.

The reason why driving horses wear bridles with blinkers is that it cuts down the field of vision and they concentrate on what is in front of them not all around.

I would never ever drive a horse in an open bridle.

It's another one of those things that is darnright foolhardy.

The preference of light harness horse instructors and professionals is to prefer a driving horse to focus on what is happening in front and when you commence driving it can be problematic not having blinkers. And I'd never drive one without. Also dependent on what you intend to do, you may find you have to wear get him in blinkers because of rules. The rules exist BECAUSE it's safer. Whenever folks mention in postings about blinkers on BB's someone always turns up to say they've done it or know someone who does/has. But it's not right and it's not what you should do and it's not what professionals do.

Personally I would not show or drive a horse in an open bridle, even if it were allowed.

I've heard of the occasional (rare) horse who for one reason or another goes better in an open bridle. But IME its more a case that sometimes people just get warm and fuzzy about letting the horse see everything and the results can be disastrous.

I've known folks who went "open" bridle to drive. All claimed to be experienced drivers and with solid driving horses. It worked for a while. In every instance, horse later saw something, reacted, ended up causing a wreck. Some were modest wrecks, others quite horrific. I don't know any of the wrecked horses who were able to be SAFELY driven again, even in blinkers.

Blinkers shut down the big screen of visibility, reduce the reaction from the horse to uncontrollable features in the environment and to unconscious body signals you may give him. The horse is designed to notice these detail things, his survival depends on it, so blinkers close down the vision area allowed.

Then consider that a well-trained driving horse understands and responds appropriately to whip cues. The blinkers prevent the horse from seeing the driving whip and anticipating the whip cue. This is important for any driving horse but especially so for multiples. You don't want to be aiming a whip cue at one horse and having the other(s) see it coming and react when they're not the intended target of the cue.

Riding and driving are very different disciplines. Hooking a wheeled contraption to a horse or horses is a far riskier endeavor than climbing on a horse's back, both for the driver and passengers and for all the innocent bystanders and their property who stand in harm's way when there's a runaway horse and carriage. Blinkers (blinders) have been used for hundreds of years and are used by the most experience and skilled drivers. You need to think there must be valid reasons.

Moderator 1

Mar. 21, 2009, 09:14 AM

As this video had been posted here earlier this month and again recently in this forum and in Off Course, we combined the threads here into one to encourage one discussion amongst those educated in the discpline and not about how best to prevent and handle situations like this in the future.

Please keep it productive--you're welcome to discuss poor choices that may have been made, but no need for name calling.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Thomas_1

Mar. 21, 2009, 09:32 AM

Before more know it alls come on here and post how much better they could have done or how they never have accidents in the first place because they are so prim and proper:

Renae I don't know if your missive is aimed at me or just generally at other drivers who do know what they're doing! If so why oh why oh why! I know you've only recently had a "disagreement" with others who are driving pretty high level and who are very knowledgeable but for goodness sakes just think for a minute about what you are defending!

I know you are absolutely insistent that this sort of thing is all right and proper but in the other thread and before anyone saw sight of this video there were VERY experienced folks posting to say how darn right dangerous this sort of activity is.

Indeed I believe another poster used the words "darnright scarey" on the other thread.

So the horses were driven in snaffles! So what if it is permitted! Do you honestly think it's right and safe for a driving horse? Why oh why oh why not use a driving bit rather than a riding bit!?

It was never clear why his horse acted the way it did in the first place. you think!? It looks pretty obvious to me.

It was a freak accident. The trainer put the video back up on youtube so people could learn how to better handle these accidents. This sort of accident could easily happen anywhere that a group of horses is being driven together. That is indeed true. It could indeed happen again. Of course accidents happen but whenever they do then it's incumbent on those that take part to REALLY consider and undertake a full investigation into the circumstances and root cause and to seriously think about what can be done to reduce the risk in the first place and then mitigate the consequences.

Other sorts of accidents happen too, such as the videos I have seen of combined driving horse's harnesses breaking or the whip and navigator falling fromt eh carriage and the horses running fre about the course and spectators either without or with a carriage attached! They do indeed. Failing or ill fitted harness is wrong whether it's on a horse doing horse driving trials (CDE) or in a showing class.

bird4416

Mar. 21, 2009, 09:54 AM

Thomas, thanks for the explanation. Like I said, I have absolutely no driving experience so was just curious. Driving does look a lot more complicated than riding with more things that could go wrong.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 21, 2009, 09:56 AM

Thomas, if I may ask, why should one not drive in a snaffle bit? The reason I ask, other than to learn, is because I drive in a butterfly bit, my lines are on the middle "loop" of the bit for Smoke. When I am doing work with her, such as dragging logs or a skid, she is in a snaffle bit and does fine.

I have had Smoke get away from me once, and that was truly driver error..my own stupidity. I was moving pieces of logs from a downed tree my husband had cut up in the pasture on the skid, he put too many on the skid, she stepped back then suddenly forward to get momentum as it was heavier and the logs shifted and fell in my path. My other two horses were loose...BAD BAD mistake, spooked and ran by her, she followed suite...I tripped, fell and Smoke went with them. She ran between a tree and our fence, ripped the skid off of her, the single tree hitting her in the legs. She did stop at the other side of the pasture by our barn. Did my mentor get on me? Oh hell ya he did and rightfully so, I know better. He made me harness her up and drive her around and asked me what it was I did wrong. Humbling to say the least.

As for Renae's comment, I hope that she isn't sore for us pointing out what went wrong. I know as I have said, would NEVER let my horses tail flow free like that as it can get caught up in the lines. That is my own opinion, others may do differently as we saw. I also will not drive so far down or low behind my draft, but again, I have seen others drive in the proper height and get kicked. We live and we learn. It has nothing to do with if they are national champions or not, it has to do with safety and rules and regulations and what is right and what is wrong.

Thomas_1

Mar. 21, 2009, 09:58 AM

I've worked with many trainers who work their driving horses at home without blinkers. It IS much safer. Rubbish! Why on earth do you think that!?

Unfortunately the rules specify a blind bridle so you don't have a choice in the show ring... Thankfully those who organise driving shows KNOW that it's darn right fool hardy to have driving horses in open bridles.

The cart cannot run up on the horse at all... Since we are not driving at speed or on hills, britching has been eliminated and is never found on "light harness" in any breed. Really?! Sorry but you're wrong. So wrong. Whilst britching might not be used in some classes and by some folks, you are just absolutely wrong saying that it's NEVER found on light harness horses.

Take a look at the manufacturer's catalogs - Freedman's, Hunts, Walsh, Smuckers - to see that it's simply not available, even if desired. Again you are making a wrong summation. Just because "some" harness comes without britching doesn't mean that it's not available. Every harness set I've ever bought has been purchased with britching.

I'm not sure it would be allowed in the show ring, either. I don't know about those classes in the video but for sure britching is allowed in private driving classes at the highest level in Europe.

Also, the carts are not flimsy nor do they weigh 30 pounds. They were very flimsy and light weight

My show cart is probably close to 350 pounds Much more sensible

The carts with the pneumatic wheels do weigh less, but they are still rather heavy. If you notice, none of the carts broke. The harnesses broke, but the carts remained intact. To take such a beating and not fall apart is testament to their sturdiness. Not true at all. You could drag a wheelbarrow behind a horse at bolt and it wouldn't necessary fall apart. The fact that it tipped so easily is testament to the fact that light construction affects stability and affords no protection to the driver.

I do agree, seated below the horse is not a good place to be for driving. My cart has extra tall wheels and I am noticeably higher than when I had my older cart with smaller, pneumatic tires. The most common thing I have seen in the ring when a horse gets out of control is the driver falling out the back, or falling into the basket. The carts have a spring system for comfort, but at high speeds, it acts against the driver, bouncing them around. Absolutely agreed!

One thing that I don't care for in the ring is the level of experience (or lack thereof). Many of these drivers drive at most once a week for a month or so, before they're deemed competent to show, and then they might have a practice drive once in awhile right before a show. Time isn't necessarily competence and skill.

I take my life in my hands every time I enter that gate. All I can do is drive my horse with an eye on everyone else. Now I've competed high level at horse driving trials which is considered to be the "riskier" end of driving activity. After all it's eventing for drivers. I drove right through all combinations from singles to teams and I've got to say that I wouldn't like to think that I take my life in my hands. Not at all! Of course driving is a risk sport but it's should NEVER be THAT risky that you're fearful for your life every time you do it!

Heck I drive a minimum of 15 hours, 5 days a week and every week of the year with a few rare exceptions. I'd be dead and buried having had a heart attack if it was that stressful!

Thomas_1

Mar. 21, 2009, 10:06 AM

Thomas, if I may ask, why should one not drive in a snaffle bit? I probably should have been more specific and said that Wilson or Double Ring Snaffles are the exception. They are driving bits and often used for light trade vehicles or for schooling when it's all less formal really. They traditionally were used with a specific sort of breast harness and are often popular with pony drivers. The snaffle is attached to the cheek pieces by the inner or loose rings whilst the reins can either be attached to both rings together or to the outside rings. The latter option has quite a severe nutcracker on the horse's mouth and hence I don't like them.

I think jointed bits are always inappropriate for driving horses though. The length of reins you have means that every single little motion with the hands is felt on the horses mouth. There's also considerably more leverage so the last thing you want is a heavy hand or unintentional movement bringing the head up.

Reason why is because your horse is way out in front of you and all you have is your hands and voice as aids. No seat and no legs. The last thing you ever need is a bit that allows/enables the horse to raise his head and piss off.

I also will not drive so far down or low behind my draft, but again, I have seen others drive in the proper height and get kicked. If your horse is properly put to in a carriage that fits then it should never be possible for him to kick back and hit his leg! or the carriage or driver.

We live and we learn. It has nothing to do with if they are national champions or not, it has to do with safety and rules and regulations and what is right and what is wrong. :yes:

Renae

Mar. 21, 2009, 06:08 PM

So the horses were driven in snaffles! So what if it is permitted! Do you honestly think it's right and safe for a driving horse? Why oh why oh why not use a driving bit rather than a riding bit!?

Snaffles are the only bit that you may drive a horse in this class in. It is all that is permitted. You may use a Wilson snaffle if you like. You must use a running martingale.

Thomas I am very glad that you are so sure about yourself that you think that everything you do is correct and the way that you do it is the only correct way, good for you. As many others have pointed out to you on this forum there are other correct ways to do things depending on what kind of driving you are doing and where you are doing it and you are very rude in many, many, many of your posts. For instance in America "light harness" is generally considered to be the light breast collar harness that does not have breeching that is used with the light 2 wheeled and 4 wheeled buggies used in our show rings for a variety of breeds. The late Tom Ryder in his book On The Box Seat acknowledged the differances in American and British terminology in regards to this sort of thing.

KellyS

Mar. 21, 2009, 07:21 PM

Thomas...thanks for being a voice of reason on this thread. :)

In regard to snaffles, we do school and often compete in dressage with a snaffle. Both ponies go extremely well in a French link as opposed to a straightbar.

HOWEVER, for pleasure driving shows we always use a liverpool (or butterfly) mullen or arch mouth bit. First of all, when being judged on turnout they are the appropriate bits for driving. And, when you are driving in a large class, you need to be able to control your horse and pony, especially if things go south. Snaffles don't do much good if you start to have a bolt, and safety is paramount.

It's one thing to do your dressage test where you are the only horse in the ring, another being in an enclosed arena showing with a large group of horses with little knowledge as to the horses' or drivers' experience.

In regard to breeching, I've always been taught that the only time it is appropriate not to use it is if you're driving a 4-wheel carriage with brakes.

The breed show driving is a whole nother world; like I said on the other thread, if that's what you like to do, that's fine. But there are reasons some of us are pointing out the differences between breed show driving and driving competitions run under ADS/USEF rules; many of the differences are based on safety.

-----------------------------------------

One of the worst wrecks I ever witnessed was at the Canadian Classic, I think in 2000. One of the leaders in a 4-in-hand managed to get its bridle off, and next thing the whole team had taken off. The leaders ended up jumping out of the ring and running around the grounds; thankfully the wheelers didn't jump and stayed in the ring. It's amazing no one on the carriage or the ground was hurt. The roof seat break was banged up pretty bad, but still in one piece.

I always cringe when I hear people say, "Oh, driving sounds like fun, I've got this cart and $100 set of harness of Ebay, and am thinking of driving my <insert riding horse's name here>." Very few people who are new to driving realize just how critical harness and carriage fit are, and the skills needed to drive safely. Things can go badly very quickly.

Tiffani B

Mar. 21, 2009, 10:17 PM

The breed show driving is a whole nother world; like I said on the other thread, if that's what you like to do, that's fine. But there are reasons some of us are pointing out the differences between breed show driving and driving competitions run under ADS/USEF rules; many of the differences are based on safety.

The breed shows ARE run under USEF rules.

Rubbish! Why on earth do you think that!?

Because when you are training a horse (not showing it, not in a ring with other horses, and not outdoors) it helps the horse to KNOW what is "chasing" it. That horse, at any time, can lose his bridle, the blinkers, or turn his head far enough around to see the monster behind him. If he is introduced to driving without blinkers, and can see what we are doing, then later, when he is wearing blinkers and something goes amiss, he will not panic. Having a horse comfortable with seeing the cart, were something to happen, is something I would much prefer.

I am not advocating driving a horse sans blinkers outside or in a competition or in ANY situation where something might panic the horse. But in an indoor arena, a controlled environment, with nothing there to interfere - it can be a useful thing to have done.

Really?! Sorry but you're wrong. So wrong. Whilst britching might not be used in some classes and by some folks, you are just absolutely wrong saying that it's NEVER found on light harness horses.

No, I am not wrong. I am speaking of light harness at breed shows (Arabian, Morgan, Quarter Horse, Saddlebred, TWH, etc.) wherein you will never SEE breeching nor can you purchase it with your light harness unless by special order. Your experience is not on the US show circuit so perhaps you are not aware of this.

And FYI, my show cart of which you said was "sensible" at 350 pounds is the EXACT same cart the horses in that video were hooked to, other than the wheels being wood vs. pneumatic. The pneumatic carts probably weigh ~ 100# less. And I do believe the second horse to get loose had wood wheels (I haven't watched the video since the first time so my memory may be incorrect).

And you misunderstood my comment about taking my life into my hands whenever I show in a driving class. I was referring to the unfortunate relative lack of experience/skill of the drivers in the class. I spend probably 5-8 hours a week in the cart driving various horses. The people in the ring with me probably spend, at most, 1/2 hour a week driving, most likely LESS. Most times, everything goes off without a hitch (no pun intended). But, because of their lack of experience and skill, if something were to happen, it is more likely to result in disaster than if it were a ring full of Thomas'. :)

Beasmom

Mar. 21, 2009, 10:31 PM

I, too, was happy to see Thomas chime in on this thread. If I am ever in a position to learn to drive, he (or someone comparable) is who I'd go to for lessons. Thomas knows his stuff.

Beverley

Mar. 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

Pretty awesome wreck. I thought about saying 'I would have done thus and such,' but it's easy to armchair quarterback when you are just watching the replay. I do still aim to learn proper single horse or pony driving one of these days- if I wanted to avoid wrecks with horses I'd simply never go near them, it's the only way to guarantee that.

To think, as kids we had access to a shetland and a harness and a cart, we were totally clueless and yet managed to harness the little guy and hook up the cart and drive all over the place. That was a good pony. And I do remember blinkers on the bridle.

I recall, maybe a good 20 years ago, Queen Elizabeth stepping up to stop a raucous four-in-hand at Wembley. If memory serves, she was in the arena to present an award and the team bolted. She stepped up and grabbed the rein of the near lead horse and, well, she's the queen, they stopped. I was way impressed at the time, and I noticed that unlike the unfortunate steward in this video, she did NOT place herself in harm's way, if she couldn't snag that rein, a step back and she's clear.

Beasmom

Mar. 21, 2009, 11:15 PM

The Queen. I knew she had superpowers!

Thomas_1

Mar. 22, 2009, 03:26 AM

I am indeed very aware that there are different ways of doing things.

I don't post anonymously and what I do is laid open for anyone to see and view. I've extensive and professional experience in a wide variety of driven activity so of course I know that. It extends to having international experience too so of course I know there's different ways of doing things in different places.

You honestly don't think I drive my coaching team in the same harness to the same vehicle and using the same methodology as I drive a single pony cross country do you or a pair of horses in a showing class or a tandem doing dressage do you ?

We have as many different methods as different driven activities over here. That also extends to some practices in some driven activity that is darn right intrinsically dangerous. And trust me I'd post in similar vein if a video was posted showing European driving horses with intrinsically unsafe activity. Indeed anyone who's read my posts over time will know that I have done that before. So the likes of that seen in this thread isn't your preserve! Sadly!!!

Of course I know why britching isn't used in show classes. I've said I was brought up showing Hackney horses in harness. I've driven in show classes myself without it. I've posted photos on this BB with me and my mother driving sans britching! So heck of course I acknowledge there's differences in how things are sometimes done.

Note: acknowledging differences doesn't mean you are in support of them and neither does it mean you're not aware of the benefits and disadvantages when you compare and contrast.

But it's foolish to ignore the elephant in the room and fall into the trap of thinking that it's sensible, perfectly acceptable and absolutely o.k. Truth is, it's not. It's intrinsically unsafe.

There's some stuff I've done and some I personally would never ever get involved with because I like my life and I like horses and happen to think it's incumbent on their keepers to ensure their safety as much as is reasonably practical.

Rather than arguing that "stuff happens" and "it's always been that way" or "it's how we do it" or "it's the rules", I personally have always preferred the approach of in depth knowledge and understanding and change to improve. Its wrong to suggest that I fall into the trap of thinking the experience I have is limited. Just the opposite. It's extensive and it's just just time served. Because it's extensive and varied I not only recognise the differences but I know fine and well what is good and bad about the differences.

I also think that whenever there's a serious accident or even a near miss that it's incumbent on those who have an interest to really investigate thoroughly and understand the root causes and to review practices.

Now some folks don't do that and they talk as if "rules is rules" on tablets of stone and because they've been getting away with things that "it must be o.k." or that in their limited experience they've seen it done that way so that must be the way.

Folks who go down that route do so at their peril and the peril of their horse. I know that fine and well. Ask me how many nervous drivers I've worked with following a serious wreck. Ask me how many horses I've attempted to retrain following a wreck. I'll tell you, I've lost count! I will however tell you that each and every one of their drivers thought (were 200% convinced) they were doing it right and there was no problem until the unfortunate day when they were compelled to learn from mistakes made.

Some folks say that wise people learn from their mistakes. I don't agree.

I always say that wise people learn from the mistakes of others. Unfortunate people learn from their own mistakes and those terminally intent on ignorance never learn.

shawneeAcres

Mar. 22, 2009, 07:53 AM

After watching this horrofic wreck I am really wondering about my decision to take up driving?? But I have some very specific questions. What, if anything, would you have done (and mostly talking to Thomas here) that would have prevented it? Although I am not disagreeing, I do not see where breeching, (britching?) would have made any difference, if so how? I don't see where the type of cart would have made a difference, I actually thought perhaps these lighter carts MIGHT have had an advantage as in a few of the cases in the film, the cart did come loose from the horse. I realize that is a mixed blessing, but I think a cart behind a paniced hrose would be FAR WORSE than it coming loose, and the fact the last guy "roped" the cart cuasing it to come loose and trip the horse may have kept less injury from happening than already did. I also fail to understand the "bit" issue, I mean I ride every horse I own in a snaffle and can easily prevent a bolt with a snaffle, why/how would driving be any different and need a "harsh" bit? Just some questions about this incident. I did feel the one horse that was kicking may have had shafts that were too short, that was the main "equipment issue" I saw there. But I am new at this.

Renae

Mar. 22, 2009, 08:37 AM

I always say that wise people learn from the mistakes of others. Unfortunate people learn from their own mistakes and those terminally intent on ignorance never learn.

I would agree, except I would say truly wise people manage to learn from the mistakes and happenchances of others without having to call those other people names and put on airs that they are superior.

I read that yesterday at Live Oak a driver and a navigator ended up in the hospital from 2 seperate incidents. Does this make them daft idiots who have no place aorund horses? No, they had an accident. Can things be learned from it? Yes. Does calling them idiots and saying that if they had never done what they did in the first place or that if the rules for the event were completly different the accidents would never had happened help anyone to learn anything? No.

Tiffani B

Mar. 22, 2009, 09:39 AM

Thomas, how would breeching have made any difference? Nowhere throughout the entire video does the cart contact the rear end of either horse. Please educate me.

And where in the world did you find verbiage accusing you of using the same equipment for various activities?

I disagree that our way of driving/showing is "intrinsically unsafe." As a driver, you learn to work within the parameters of the [allowed] equipment to KEEP it safe. Breeching and a liverpool bit would not have made one iota of difference in this scenario at all. A DRIVER with the knowledge/ability to stop a horse from escalating from "startled" to "bolt" is what was needed.

Hunter Mom

Mar. 22, 2009, 10:18 AM

I don't think you had Arabians driving on the public streets very often. Especially well-fed, show-tuned Arabians. Although the book I was reading last night said that the British nobleman character (in this historical novel) customarily travelled in acarriage pulled by eight black Arabian stallions.:sigh:

As a kid, I had an Arab that was very competetive in the bigger shows. We did several disciplines, including driving, and won lots of classes, championships and high point awards. I also used her in parades when given the chance - we drove and even rode side saddle. While she was always "on" she was also pretty much unspookable. Her "on-ness" made her a crowd favorite, too.:yes:

Thomas_1

Mar. 22, 2009, 10:20 AM

Shawnee,

Trust me I've not driven for more than 50 years for the heck of it ;)

Driving is possibly the most fun you can have with a horse. Honestly! I've had fantastic experience and had a mass of opportunity to go places I wouldn't otherwise have gone and to meet people I'd never otherwise have got to know well.

Furthermore if you learn well, you will come to appreciate that there's a heck of a lot more horsemanship and training to having a good driving horse than to having a good riding horse.

You have to be much more in tune with the horse. It's way out there in front of you. All you have is your hands and voice. You have to read what it's doing using your eyes and hands alone. You don't get to feel it tense up under your seat. So you have to have a well trained confident and forward going horse. Because you don't get away with so much, that's essential.

I'd argue it's even more important to get great lessons and learn well with a driving horse than a riding horse.

Please note that all of my driving horses are ride and drive and all but 2 are ordinarily ridden in snaffle bits. They're not driven in them though. Though as I said earlier I do also use sometimes use Wilson snaffles (which are driving bits) for schooling youngsters at home.

Driving isn't riding and you can have all the ridden experience in the world it doesn't necessarily give you any advantage at all. If you are experienced with classically training riding horses and/or such as advanced lunging and longreining and work in hand then you will come to appreciate a lot of the techniques and you might get it slightly quicker. Trust me though non-riders often take to driving quicker and advance to a higher level and in the main because they're not "thinking riding" and trying to adapt what they do under saddle to what they do in a carriage. IME it's often a disadvantage to come to driving as a rider as you spend quite a bit of time having to unlearn and get your head off any false expectation or presumptions.

If you read the bit posted by me earlier re a riding and driving horse bolting, you'll see why it's different. KellyS also gave a pretty good account of when and why she should would and wouldn't use a snaffle bit.

I think the best thing I can advise you to do is to go to a proper light harness horse instructor and one who uses a reining machine which allows you to see the effect your hands have on the horse's mouth (and bit). In particular you need to appreciate that the length of reins mean the bit has a much more exagerated effect and if you're going to drive then it's more important to have good hands than if you ride. (though as a driver, I'm fussy.... REAL fussy - about heavy hands and unsympathic use of reins)

Now no bit will ever stop a true bolt. IMO the true bolt is the horse that lost it's mind and doesn't care less for it's own safety because it's in true terror flight and fright mode.

However most often there's stages before the bolt where a horse spooks and skoots or gets hot and on it's toes or starts to take hold to GO and that's where you've got a chance.

And no different to riding, you never want a horse to lift it's head up and lean forward and tank off.

I said earlier that I'm of the strong opinion that smart folks learn from the mistakes of others and I'm also of the opinion that the key to every horse is to be found largely in it's mouth and that means the selection of the correct bit. In the 19th century there were a great variety of bits. Probably nearly as many as there were people! And folks had them forged and adapted whilst they were figuring what worked well and what contributed to problems. Today these bits have largely been discarded in favour of about half a dozen which are popularly used and effective for driving.

A jointed bit has a nutcracker action on the tongue and can also buckle up to the roof of the mouth if in incorrect or heavy hands. It can also apply a lot of pressure on the corners of the mouth if pressure is applied. And again, remember it's emphasised because of the length of reins. That's how leverage works.

With a traditional unjointed driving curb bit when pressure is applied not only does the curb come into action but the eye of the bit tips forward pulling on the headpiece, transferring pressure to the poll.

You have to appreciate that because all you have is a horse in front of you and your hands and voice and you're sitting in something that's following wherever it's going or else you're coming out of it and potentially being hit by it! So your life and safety and that of your horse depends on your harness and vehicle and the training and preparation put in.

I'm particular about carriages and harness and harness fit. I like living. I like horses. I don't like pain!

It's always easy to be wise after the event but you'll know from the thread you did last week, so even before this, that I urge folks NOT to use light vehicles with pneumatic tyres and wire spoke wheels with a driving horse. I never would even get in one let alone drive one. Neither would I drive a vehicle that is so light that it's bouncing all over the place and jiggling up and down to such an extent and fitted so poorly that every time it bounces it's giving the horse a mass of signals. It tipped way too easily for my liking! And it would because those vehicles do. It's why it fills me with dread every time a novice says it's what they're getting. I personally don't think they're safe for advanced drivers and advanced horses and I think they should be kept well away from novice horses and/or drivers.

Please appreciate though that in my initial posting I said it was an example of LOTS of things wrong and the bit wasn't the root cause and wouldn't have stopped this particular set of events. Neither was the lack of britching. It's just a fact worth mention in the context of a driving accident. IMO the root cause in this case was driver error and poor equipment.

But because you've asked what I'd do differently: I'd never drive in a vehicle that's tipped back with the shafts going uphill when on the flat. I'd never drive a vehicle without a backrest - and most definitely not one that's tipped back, too close to the horse and too light and bouncing all over anyway! Did you see on the video where they ended up once they were level? Look at the early stage where the first driver had vanished out of the back and it tips and then rights itself. The shafts are lower than the horse's belly! virtually round it's knees! I'd never drive that. NO WAY EVER!

I couldn't see what actually broke on the harness but evidentially there was a lot wrong with it for the whole lot to come off so quickly and easily and with such a light carriage and straight over the back end of the horse. I also think I saw a whole bridle come off!?!? That's a new one to me!!! Well it's not really as I've seen it happen too frequently! And always with crappy ill fitting equipment that's an accident waiting to happen.

I never lean back with my hands raised and back and hanging on like the devil and with constant pressure. Particularly not when the carriage is tipped back anyway! Likewise I don't lean to a bend - not in a light unstable carriage that's going to tip anyway! And I don't hang on to the inside rein when there's a load of folks trying to go off the track towards the middle trying to get out of my way!

Hang on and pick a fight and you're very simply in a tug of war with a horse and with no where to go and nothing else to try to bring it's mind and attention back to you. The horse will always in those circumstances evade..... either by going back or up or by taking hold and tanking off and dependent on the circumstances. If that ever happens you go forward and then ask and ask and ask again. You don't just hang on. That will be ignored.

The horse was out of control from the second it entered the arena. There should have been a run in or else the gates could have been opened immediately to either let it out - but I don't know what was out there - might have been a load of mothers and kids! or else the others should have been permitted to drive out. As it was the whole lot were trapped with a horse that by then had lost it's marbles. And with no escape horse run in and no barriers anywhere to take cover.

Grooms/headers (whatever you call them) left the horses to go sort out the one that was in flight. I'd never do that! Some drivers actually got out of their vehicles and one turnout was just abandoned standing all by itself whilst it's driver and header chased after a horse in flight!

And standing in the line of a genuinely bolting horse with your arms flapping!! NO WAY NEVER EVER EVER !!!! Not for a million pounds! By all means head it off if you can or try to catch something (a rein) at it's side but otherwise, get out of it's way! And trust me bolting horses and run aways is something I have quite a bit of experience of! Quite simply you don't get to be a horse trainer by dealing only with well trained, well behaved, unspoilt, easy horses!!! Indeed, just the opposite! I tend most often to get them after someone else has messed things up!

Don't let this put you off. It's no different to seeing a video clip of awful riding work and watching someone fall off and the horse P* off. The lesson isn't "don't go near horses". The lesson is "don't do that". It merely emphasises how important it is to really go out and try to know what you don't know and really and truly listen and consider what folks tell you.

If it sounds like sense it will be sense. If it sounds too good to be true, then it will be too good to be true. If it sounds like good luck rather than good management then it will be an accident or bad luck waiting to happen.

Remember there's a lot of folks in life who get away with stuff and encourage others to so do. It doesn't mean they're experienced or knowledgeable.

For novices best advice is get a great instructor with proven experience and a track record that comes with a lot of recommendation or endorsement from a driving body if possible. Here we're quite lucky in that instruction is all via qualification and evidence of competence and it's licenced and approved and endorsed by governing bodies.

Also understand that driving can't be done on the cheap and harness and vehicles are expensive. There's a going rate for things and if stuff is cheap then it won't be a bargain!

If you can't afford to buy decent stuff then wait and save up until you can afford it before you start out. I'm really cynical about a lot of things described as "beginners or start up". It typically means only a novice would buy it. An experienced person would have more knowledge and sense and it wouldn't meet their needs. A good carriage and good harness will last you a lifetime and more. Buy wisely and you'll never need buy again. Buy quality second hand is better value than buying cheap new.

I've got harness in every day use that's older than Renae! It wasn't cheap to buy but in terms of cost per use it's well worth the price.

Thomas_1

Mar. 22, 2009, 10:30 AM

Tiffani

I was typing the above as you'd were obviously posting so I'd not read yours till after I'd done that.

I believe it answers your questions though.

Post 92 is what I took to say that I thought there was only one way.

Thomas_1

Mar. 22, 2009, 10:37 AM

I would agree, except I would say truly wise people manage to learn from the mistakes and happenchances of others without having to call those other people names and put on airs that they are superior. You've a real bug up your backside about calling folks names and particularly thinking folks are Uppity and Superior.

Now I personally haven't got a clue what is in your head or how you read Uppity and Superior into words. But please appreciate that its in your head to take it that way. Just the same as you imagined I called folks idiots in this thread. I didn't.

I read that yesterday at Live Oak a driver and a navigator ended up in the hospital from 2 seperate incidents. Does this make them daft idiots who have no place aorund horses? I haven't got a clue. I don't know a thing about it and I never saw a video of it and I've heard no account of it. So I've not got a clue if it might have been they were unlucky or took a risk or chance that failed to pay off. I know though that they would have been in a carriage that had a minimum weight restriction and purpose built wheels.

Does calling them idiots and saying that if they had never done what they did in the first place or that if the rules for the event were completly different the accidents would never had happened help anyone to learn anything? You know these folks do you? You know they wouldn't learn even if you told them what they should do different?

Well like I said some folks are intent on never learning.

You need to appreciate that good advice is good advice even if roughly delivered. If you want sugar coated then bulletin boards and even speaking to horse trainers probably isn't the place you want to go.

Perhaps a candy store might be better.

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 22, 2009, 11:50 AM

Thomas....do you ever come to the states or would you come to the states and give a weekend driving class? I am seriously asking as if it could be done, would love for you to come talk to those of us who drive our drafts and to better our driving ability. You would have a place to stay, good food, and a soft bed, oh and people who are not full of themselves. :winkgrin:

Beasmom

Mar. 22, 2009, 12:12 PM

Belplosh, If Thomas agrees to come give a weekend driving class, I'd LOVE to come audit!

Thomas_1

Mar. 22, 2009, 12:53 PM

I have been before. My last big International trip with driving clinics was just last year but that was to Australia.

Last time to the USA was 4 years ago now. I went to Oregon then. A long long way and a nightmare journey of 4 flights to get there! That was when I vowed never to ever to go to New York's JFK airport again!

However once in Oregon, the hospitality was absolutely second to none. Lovely people. Fantastic country and I drove some amazing horses too. Some memorable ones being a few superb Morgans, and a Quarter Horse (of all things!!) that I'd have happily brought home. There were also a team of New Forrest Ponies that someone wanted me to take away! I got away without them by saying we had more than enough of the blighters here already!

I did a few clinics whilst there and the cheeky devils even had me building a carriage and ensuring it fitted by putting it to and driving it still with just it's primer paint on!!! and before they packed me back to the UK.

I even learnt how to use a lassoo and drive wearing wranglers with an English tattersall check shirt ;) and I learnt not to laugh when they said Walk as if to rhyme with quack like a duck. That was harder than the lassoo! :winkgrin:

I'd love to go back there again but I'm always receptive to new ideas and am off to look up Virginia and see what that looks like ;)

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 22, 2009, 01:31 PM

I would really like to set something up for you to come over and we get some of our drivers together for a class and a learn and discuss. I have met some very good folks who I learned a lot from, and I ask tons of questions. Our club has a lot of those who farm, so those of us who don't care to farm want something for us other than a trail day drive or a few shows of driving, we want someone who drives, has knowledge and the know how and a sense of humor! So let me know, if you wish to pm me we can talk more.

Renae

Mar. 22, 2009, 02:40 PM

I've got harness in every day use that's older than Renae! It wasn't cheap to buy but in terms of cost per use it's well worth the price.

Ah, what an utterly charming, true to character quote. Yes, age and money make it so that one is always the correct person on every subject, that there could not possibly be other opinions that are correct in their own context and just flat out different ways of doing things. I don't know how I take these types of comments as uppity and superior :confused:

Just goes to show what can happen with a load of appallingly harnessed horses, duffer drivers, inappropriate and darn right dangerous carriages and well meaning but stupid stewarding.
I'm sorry you never called anyone an idiot, you just called them "stupid" and "duffer".

The horses were harnessed correctly for the class. The harnesses were not cheap, $1800-$5400 new, more than what many people here on this forum have said they pay for a full carriage harness with breeching. The show harnesses used for these classed are usually from Freedman, Walsh or Hunts. The same makers that make the harness used by many drivers of every other discipline from carriage driving to combined driving to drafts to racing. The carts used for these classes come from one of two makers; Jerald or Houghton. Jerald also makes race bikes and Houghton also made larger Meadowbrook and Road Carts, both companies making very nice vehicles. The pleasure carts used in the show ring, a groomed, flat, surface, are very appropriate and safe for their enviroment. I drive pleasure carts and jog carts with pneumatic tires in the arena every single day and on our bridlepath when weather permits. The design of the cart has never once caused an accident in my use. Thousands of other people who use these carts would have the same thing to tell you if you asked, from the show horse trainers and pleasure drivers who use them to the trainers at the harness tracks who uses them.

A while back when I had a chance to break a horse that was more suited for carriage pleasure driving than breed show ring driving, an area I am not as familiar with, I asked plenty of my own questions. I was very appreciative of most of the answers. But I am thoroughly amazed at the things posted by some here when they watch this incident that happened at a type of event that they don't participate in, don't know the rules for, and don't know why the equipment that is used its used. I suppose next the arm chair whips will take to critiquing harness racing accidents and stating how if the horses were in completly different equipment with different people present for the event the outcome could have been complety changed if not avoided altogether.

There have been some good posts on this thread that gave me things to consider if I should ever come upon such a situation. But the posts simply saying everything with the situation was wrong from bit to harness to cart to horse to driver to announcer to ringmaster to trainer to audience!!! (at a free to the public event) just drop my jaw to the floor.

CDE Driver

Mar. 22, 2009, 05:16 PM

I have been trying to get Thomas to come back to Oregon ;) We have first dibs on him you know :)

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 22, 2009, 06:51 PM

LOL sorry..I asked first...but seriously, I hope he considers my proposal...I am a great cook, we have feather comforters on the bed as well as a feather mattress thing too you sleep on. I can cook or bake about anything and am great on the grill as well..

Thomas_1

Mar. 22, 2009, 07:00 PM

Renae,

You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder and I'm thinking that's regrettable as I'm sure you'd be a heck of a lot happier if you just got over it.

I'm thinking that you actually don't know the origins of the word duffer or what it actually means let alone the fact that the lower slots on a driving bit are actually called the "duffers bars".

I'm also seriously wondering that if you reckon that everything was so spot on correct and safe in that class why you think there was such a dreadful accident?

I'm very pleased that you've not an accident driving light weight carts on pneumatic tyres and wire wheels and I wish you continued good luck. But sincerely you're wasting your time trying to persuade me that a light weight jog cart of that type has any design features with safety in mind. I know fine and well it doesn't have so there's absolutely no point arguing.

goeslikestink

Mar. 22, 2009, 09:43 PM

thomas my man,
horrid accident and you know i am very rusty dusty when it comes to driving much prefer ridden but have a question

do you think if the people as in judges in center wasnt there and outside an areana as most of ours are i think but i think all of them are but you would correct me on that then i dont compete at driving but love the sport just as much as any other
and have judge the barrage spillers competition at blue barn in ashford yonks ago

that when the little neddy went off into one, then the others would have had more room to get out of the way and then if the officals were any good could have filtered them out the gate more quickly and the people and neddies would have been ok

being stuck in the middle like that used up all the room

so no one could go anywhere to move out fo the way as it was blocked by the hugh hugh judging panel

so surely if anything is to be learnt by this then change a major rule
and have judges on panels on the ouside of the areana with have new technology
these days so ther should be no excuse to have a middle panel

as i feel it might not have been as bad if they could all have moved out of the way

Cartfall

Mar. 22, 2009, 09:59 PM

I
I read that yesterday at Live Oak a driver and a navigator ended up in the hospital from 2 seperate incidents. Does this make them daft idiots who have no place aorund horses? No, they had an accident. Can things be learned from it? Yes. Does calling them idiots and saying that if they had never done what they did in the first place or that if the rules for the event were completly different the accidents would never had happened help anyone to learn anything? No.

As a person who stood not 5 feet from where the driver who wrecked in the water hazard at Live Oak, this should not be even inthis discussion .

I watched that video and just shook my head. Many many things went wrong. I drive Arabs so I am familiar with the training many show barns give their "driving" horses--have seen Morgans barns with the same training-- a long whip with a bag on the end to "get the horse hot"-- not something I want my driving horses to do. I went to a huge Arab show at Tampa a couple of Thanksgivig a couple of years ago. What I saw in the warm up ring prior to the driving classes appalled me.

JMHO.

Renae

Mar. 22, 2009, 10:21 PM

Cartfall, after horses are well broke to drive then they are conditioned to show. If you are not driving a show horse, no, it is not probably something you would ever do to your horse. But show horse drivers don't gallop their horses through hazards, up and down banks, and into poles as you were just commenting on the Live Oak thread. The lack of concern for the horse's welfare in the name of making a good time on the course in events like combined driving appalls me at times.

The start of the incident in this video: a horse bolts with a elderly driver. The initial situtaion was not created by the type of class, the harness or the cart in use. The cart once empty hits the rail and rights itself. In this combined driving video the carraige hits something going on to the bridge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bfI9S7trhA and the driver and assistants have to physicaly right it, would this cart have righted itself had the horses bolted off? The cart on the first horse loose in the country pleasure driving video only dropped low at the front after the cart hit the rail, it looks as if the outside tug and trace both broke due to the impact with the rail. There are a lot of good horses standing very well considering what is going on in the ring. I spoke with someone who was actually in the class and they were letting horses out of the ring as they could without risking letting a loose horse out into the warm up area during the whole course of events. When the second horse gets loose the cart does go up on one wheel when it take a sharp turn at speed, then it rights itself. This horse runs and makes some very sharp manuevrs with the cart and it never tips until it is launched over another cart that is in its path. I seriously doubt there is any sort of cart or carriage out there that can be pulled by a single horse that would not have tipped in that situtation. The cart does right itself eventually, and now the shafts sit low as it looks as if both tugs have broken at the top where they hook to the saddle, in fact the right shaft seems to have neither trace or tug hooked to it but the cart is staying upright and following to horse fairly well until the horse is tripped. This last horse goes on to be a National Champion in driving that same year.

This is what happened and I fail to see how different harness or vehicle would have made any differance. Perhaps a synthetic marathon harness would not have broken at all, but then, perhaps the horse would have broken.

An aquaintance of mine suffered a severe head injury and eventually died from a bolting incident with his Belgian. Elderly man, driving the Belgian to a Road Cart, the horse bolts, the cart flipped and he came out of it when it did. The bit was an elbow bit and the horse was wearing a full collar harness with breeching. Would it really have been better if the man in this video was in a type of cart with a back rest that would more difficult to exit?

Why is it so hard for people to just simply discuss what happened in this incident, where no horse or human was actually even injured and every horse was driven again, including at the National level in the same year for some of them, and what could be learned from it for future instances at any type of driving event rather than attacking the participants in this video and this type of driving as a whole? Accidents of this type are almost unheard of in breed show ring driving.

Tiffani B

Mar. 22, 2009, 11:09 PM

VERY well said Renae. Excellent points, all.

atr

Mar. 22, 2009, 11:36 PM

But Renae, you must admit that there ARE things about this whole scene which are pretty damned scary and maybe should be changed.

For instance, why no breeching? I'm so used to seeing it, the horses look wierdly naked to me without it. Even my mini wears properly adjusted breeching. I wouldn't think of driving without it, even if it were unconventional in the show ring (though after watching that video, we won't be appearing in a show ring in this country any time soon...)

I understand the long, flowing tail thing from a looks point of view, sort of.

The light carts don't worry me so much, but I hate the lack of back rests. I've never understood why we would inflict this level of discomfort on ourselves.

And why on earth were those ring stewards, etc. putting themselves and others in harm's way by behaving the way they were? THAT was the thing that really scared me about this whole video.

And Thomas, you and my (Very English) husband would get on well--call a spade a spade, if not a bloody shovel.... :)

It's a dangerous sport, driving. Back in my stupid youth, I used to drive wedding carriages in Surrey and into Central London. We were manically safety concious, but we'd frequently get back from a wedding thanking our lucky stars that the bride in the back hadn't a clue what was going on on the box.

Renae

Mar. 22, 2009, 11:54 PM

The carts are used with either French tugs or a wrap strap with the tug, it is pretty snug around the shaft and there is a shaft stop, this is what keep that cart back where it is supposed to be on the small declines you come across driving around a show grounds. the shafts come in either 88" or 96" long, so longer than most other types of 2 wheeled carts, due to the fact that the basket is lower, and in fact the horse is if anything farther from the basket then in Meadowbrook and Road Carts. The shafts are not loose in the tugs to bounce and slide like when you use open loop tugs with a heavier cart. In this circumstance what would breeching have done, really, except make it take longer to unhitch the horses that were behaving?

Honestly I don't notice any lack of back rest when i am driving, I have no back rest on my saddle either though, I guess I am used to sitting up straight ;)

It seems that most of the trainers, assistants and grooms were trying to do what is standard in a ring class of any sort if there is a loose, bolting horse, keep it on the rail and let it run itself out. Those who acted otherwise were going against what is generally considered the correct thing to do in these situtations. This video does point out the importance of the "trainer's meeting" that most shows hold at the start and touching on appropriate action in emergencies.

Beasmom

Mar. 23, 2009, 12:04 AM

Thomas_1

Mar. 23, 2009, 04:26 AM

Renae,

You're going on as if no one else here actually shows their driving horses. THAT is NOT the case.

Many do and including myself. I know you don't even count regulated private driving classes as "showing". But they are.

I know you don't consider private driving classes as anything to do with showing a specific breed of horse in harness. But they are. They're just not the sort of showing you do. But it doesn't mean you can't watch and learn if you only opened your eyes and mind.

The way SOME breeds of horses are shown in "so called" driven classes in SOME places dismays some drivers.

It seems to me you don't know why. You haven't even got a clue why that is.

You're clearly in the category of "I've done it and had no problems" and "stuff happens".

Your account of the accident suggests to me that you are unable to do a risk assessment or root cause analysis investigation and that most likely means you won't learn to come out of the "stuff happens" category.

Yet you are very fond of suggesting that I (and others) am somewhat staid and uppity about doing the same thing forever without change. Your argument is however absurd. Not only are you insistent for "no change" "change not required", but your conclusion of me is incorrect.

If you knew me (even through my postings) instead of deciding in your head what I'd said and were like, then you would know already that I was a founder member of the horse driving trials association and in the days when obstacles were called "hazards" and when the cross country phase was driven in a wood trap or gig or maybe a rally cart and with wood wheels and a wood shaft which used to break up........ frequently.

I was I believe the first person to compete with a vehicle with steel wheels and very quickly moved on to purpose built metal construction vehicles which have advanced the sport and particularly the safety elements immensely. I was a course designer and as such worked on the Safety Team. Things changed and developed and improved over time and because folks were willing to critically review the sport they loved and change what was intrinsically unsafe or accident causative.

Now you're trying to distract the thread by suggeting that CDE drivers have a lack of concern for their horses and go galloping about haphazardly and into solid objects. You're typing total twaddle! Whilst "some" CDE drivers might be duffers or scarey novices you can't suggest the whole sport is for the reasons you suggest. We've had postings here before showing driving videos at other sorts of events and including driving trials and have had detailed review and...... shock horror...... we've been able to identify things to be done differently for the future.

I know frequently folks prefer the head in the sand approach and the hindsight is easy or use the words "armchair quarterback" as some sort of derisory insult (well not those words in the UK obviously ;) - we don't know what a quarterback is! ). However it's good practice to critically review circumstances and facts when there's an accident and not just consider the what but the "why" and the "what could be done different".

You are just doing the "stuff happens" argument by quoting totally unrelated accidents doing something entirely different without any understanding at all about what the root cause and contributory factors were in those cases.

In your recent account of the incident there's no such thought. Seems "just a" horse bolted and an old man.

I think you must be getting desperate for a logical argument if you've sunk to those levels. Either that or you just don't have that sort of logical and disciplined mind that enables analysis of fact.

Whilst you accounted the "what" very well there's no why or what could be different.

The initial situtaion was not created by the type of class, the harness or the cart in use. So what did cause and contribute to the incident and what could be done differently?

The cart on the first horse loose in the country pleasure driving video only dropped low at the front after the cart hit the rail, it looks as if the outside tug and trace both broke due to the impact with the rail. The cart actually didn't drop low at all. It dropped so the shafts were level. It positioned itself once it wasn't forced up by being strapped at an incline so the box wasn't tipped back and so it was at the level where it was balanced....... with shafts at the bottom of the horse's belly! Is it the norm for tugs and traces to break so easily?

The cart does right itself eventually, and now the shafts sit low as it looks as if both tugs have broken at the top where they hook to the saddle, in fact the right shaft seems to have neither trace or tug hooked to it but the cart is staying upright and following to horse fairly well until the horse is tripped. Again the harness broke and again the cart did indeed "right itself". It went to it's balanced and level position ...... round the horse's knees!!! That's 2 carts we now have that have done that and 2 sets of harness that broke at the tugs to allow the cart to run level.

This is what happened and I fail to see how different harness or vehicle would have made any differance. Perhaps a synthetic marathon harness would not have broken at all, but then, perhaps the horse would have broken. Try harder!

An aquaintance of mine suffered a severe head injury and eventually died from a bolting incident with his Belgian. Elderly man, driving the Belgian to a Road Cart, the horse bolts, the cart flipped and he came out of it when it did. The bit was an elbow bit and the horse was wearing a full collar harness with breeching. Would it really have been better if the man in this video was in a type of cart with a back rest that would more difficult to exit? Sorry to hear of the loss of your friend. We honestly can't comment in terms of a critical accident review from the account you've given.

Why is it so hard for people to just simply discuss what happened in this incident, where no horse or human was actually even injured and every horse was driven again, including at the National level in the same year for some of them, and what could be learned from it for future instances at any type of driving event rather than attacking the participants in this video and this type of driving as a whole? Accidents of this type are almost unheard of in breed show ring driving. Isn't that what is happening here????

I think we were told that the person who has put the video up on Youtube did so in order that others might learn from the incident.

You don't learn if you don't critically review and understand what you're seeing and come to appreciate what could be done differently. If everyone just nodded their heads and agreed that everything was fine and dandy but "stuff happens" without making any reasonably practicable change for the future and without taking any reasonable mitigating precautions then "stuff will indeed happen". Thing is though that some VERY simple things could be done to make it safer but you seem to think there's nothing. It's all fine and good.

If all think like that, then there's another accident waiting to happen. Next time luck might not be on side and the consequences could be worse.

Moderator 1

Mar. 23, 2009, 06:59 AM

Different posters/drivers are going to see and contribute different things in reaction to seeing this accident, based upon their backgrounds and perspectives, and that's what the forums are for.

As we noted before, we agree that calling folks "stupid" etc., even if it's not in reference to other posters and even if you feel it's entirely deserved, CAN detract from a productive discussion, so let's all please leave those references behind and continue to move forward with the discussion.

The thread shouldn't be about which poster is "right," so no need to pin the class--please keep the focus on a discussion of safety and ideas that could potentially improve it. ;)

Thanks!
Mod 1

slc2

Mar. 23, 2009, 07:27 AM

I have a question. Well several. These are beginner questions. Please consider that I fully realize I know nothing about driving. I realize the questions sound very stupid. But perhaps everyone can be tolerant when a beginner asks questions and wants to learn from the mistakes of others. And yes, I read all the other posts carefully and I saw some of these issues discussed, but have more questions about some of the subjects.

If a horse bolts in a small ring like this, what should the driver do? Try to stay on the rail? Do you call for the outside and try to turn the horse into the wall, or circle it to the inside?

Are drivers taught to have a specific approach when this happens? Is there an agreed upon protocol? Does it vary among different driving styles?

THird, some of the carts do look incorrectly sized, I also read here they were. But is there no steward that checks the carts and harness before the class? The shafts are supposed to be level at a point on the shoulder, aren't they? Is this accepted for this driving style?

WHY do they have seated people in the middle of the ring? This seems like a terrible, terrible idea. How can this be safe? It means the drivers don't have the option of circling to the inside to avoid an accident or control their horses. The fence, seating, everything, this is just really appalling. I understand it looks pretty but this ring is so small that it's bound to cause a problem.

Also, why did the harnesses break so easily?

Is it better for the cart to come loose if the driver has fallen out?

Should harnesses have a release when the driver falls out? Is the horse more likely to stop if the cart is not attached to him?

It seems larger wheels would tip over easier, but people are saying to have larger wheels. Are there studies of safety with different cart designs?

It looked like the first horse that lost it was not trained. Forgive a novice, but it did appear at the start, the horse simply was very tense and just started kicking at the cart. It actually seemed to me like this was a very simple matter the way this started. Did anyone else think the horse simply started kicking at the cart? DOes anyone know why? Do well trained driving horses simply just some days do that? How do you prevent this? How close cart is to horse? What else?

WHY did the horse's bridles fall off? That gives nothing for a header to try to stop the horse. I was taught to have a throatlatch rather tighter than a riding bridle, specifically to keep the bridle on should something happen.

If a horse is used to pulling a cart with a closed bridle on, isn't he going to panic if the bridle falls off and he has a very different view of the cart? Should my trainer put my pony to the cart with the blinkers off at some point, so he's used to how it looks?

My pony, I think due to very rough handling, takes a very, very light contact on the bit and gets claustrophobic and opens his mouth and gets quite nervous if the rein contact is anything but light. He DOES stop, very reliably, but it is a lot smoother from a light hand, often I can just say softly whoa without hardly touching the reins.

Can I get in trouble if he doesn't accept a firmer contact? Would it affect how well he can be controlled if other horses bolt near him? One driving instructor wants me to have more contact with the reins at all times. I understand that a sloppy loose rein is bad, and have gotten over that through practice with the rein machine and with the pony and thru driving other horses, but I can't take as much contact with this pony as she wants. I'm trying, but it's difficult. It just doesn't seem in his nature.

If the gentle snaffle bit I have is so effective and his mouth is so soft, do I need to change to a mullen mouth bit with leverage? Isn't that going to make him panic even more?

My pony is I don't think EVER going to be a quiet pony. He has needed a lot of despooking. I think this is partly due to abuse and partly that he is just a hot, sensitive pony. Should I give up teaching him to drive? Does a driving horse need to be extremely quiet? I really started to worry seeing this video mess. It seemed several of the horses simply panicked and their drivers lost control. Only a few stayed quiet. Should the more sensitive horse be a driving horse?

Cielo Azure

Mar. 23, 2009, 08:23 AM

Breeching and a liverpool bit would not have made one iota of difference in this scenario at all.

I totally, absolutely disagree.

I have had plenty of started bolts, and with one half halt or on occassion, a good tug on a liverpool, set on the second hole and the horse comes right down. If that had been done on the signs of panic, that accident would never, ever have happened. Even if the horse had been allowed a canter step, it could have been brought right down with a liverpool.

I just watched it again, the driver pulls back with that snaffle quite hard and as he has NO LEVERAGE, NOTHING HAPPENS. If he had a leverage bit, this probably would have ended there. EXCEPT, it would have ended before the tape was put on him, because it would never have happened. The horse would not have broken into a run. If appears as if the horse started the run, because the horse ahead of him broke into a canter for a bit. Anyway, a snaffle bit is dangerous in that arena. We have shown there, under saddlea and in cart, a few times, with a PACKED arena at the state fair and yes, I USED A KIMBERWICKE on my dressage horse for this exact reason and a liverpool with my Percherons. SAFE, SMART AND SANE!

I don't think the accostics are any worse than any other coloseum I have shown in, That ring has a nice warm up area and at least two entrances/exits. FRankly, there were hardly any spectators (you should feel that arena rumble when 10,000 people clap and cheer). The ring was was not an issue.

SLC2 -I think you have some great questions and thoughts on this (outside the box), but I don't have time to write. As usual I don't even have time to spell check this (dyslexia here also). But honestly, a liverpool is not going to panic a horse. That is kind of a weird thought. In fact, a liverpool is not a severe bit. I really don't get why some drivers are so opposed. You probably don't want to train in a snaffle and throw him in a liverpool on the day of the show but...who would do that? We go from a dressage snaffle (when in the ridden dressage arena) to a liverpool for driving, back and forth. A liverpool doesn't make a hard mouth in good hands, in fact it makes a soft mouth!

I am writing this late, probably ten people have already written this...

SmokenMirrors

Mar. 23, 2009, 08:58 AM

Cartfall, I too have seen a little of what goes on behind the scenes at "breed" shows and it is indeed appalling. And not just the driving classes.

I know very little about driving, but I'd take Thomas's word over Renae's any day. Accidents will happen, whether you are riding or driving a horse, but God willing, we learn from our mistakes and (preferably) from the mistakes of others and do what must be done to remain safe as possible.

Perhaps show drivers should be required to wear helmets and/or protective vests in case of such incidents?

I am with you Beasmom on taking Thomas's word to heart too. After all is said and done, give me my steady Percheron draft mare who has walked by umbrella's, around screaming kids, who has NEVER had a plastic bag flapped in her face before a class, and is as elegant, in my humble opinion, than any going to jump out of my skin light!

And Jill, you got me remembering that I have had so many people say to put Smoke into a snaffle when she drives, as I drive her in a butterfly bit, the lines are usually on the 2nd hole. I guess I live by the "what it" and not the "it will never happen to me" and would rather have that little bit of extra stop just in case. I am nowhere near as competent a driver as you, or Thomas or anyone else, but I hope I learn by others mistakes and yes, my own. I think you were spot on when you said that it is also in the hands, how you drive with those lines. That was hard for me to learn to keep some tension or be in constant contact with the lines, I grew up riding western pleasure horses, so having a loose rein was what I was taught.

Thank you for the few who have taken the time to explain and be long winded. People like me who do drive learn from your words of wisdom and from your experiences.

Renae

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:17 AM

Thomas forget the cart and harness used. Say it is exactly what you would have used. You have a customer showing in an indoor arena and his horse bolts and he is not able to stop it. What exactly would you do? So far you have just said this would never happen to you as you use different cart and harness. Any horse can bolt. Any horse can bolt through any bit.

When a horse runs your cart and harness into a concrete wall none of the harness would break? If the tug did break the cart would magically float there at the exact same height it was hitched at?

If I had been at this incident I would have worked with those that were trying to keep the initial bolting horse on the rail until he ran himself out. It was unfortunate that everyone in the ring was not working towards this goal and that he got into the middle and got another horse tangled up in the mess. The ringmaster who in an ill-advised move step in front of the bolting horse was fine, he was the truly, truly lucky one.

It upsets me that posters are implying that the type of showing that I do is intrinsically unsafe and the suggestions that me and the majority of my peers are less than fair with our horses is just unfounded. That is why I drew comparissons to other driving sports. This type of harness breaking is not common at all. This type of accident as I have repeated is almost unheard of at our shows. I attended a dozen shows last year myself throught the midwest, not a single driving accident at any of them, in fact the last time I personally saw a driving accident at one of our shows was over 10 years ago, a lady driving at an arena that has a metal pipe fence rail put the tip of her shaft on the other side of the fence from her horse, she was simply too close to the rail. As I said in my first post on this topic this video is from 9 years ago.

Renae

Mar. 23, 2009, 09:20 AM

who has NEVER had a plastic bag flapped in her face before a class

You are not allowed to have plastic bags or whips longer than 6' in the warm up area. The paddock man polices this, very well at most shows. So even without being there I can almost assure you that none of these horses had a plastic bag flapped in their face before the class.

CA ASB

Mar. 23, 2009, 11:33 AM

As I have stated before, most driving accidents are inherently more dramatic and dangerous than most riding accidents.

And, any kind of cart/harness combo can have a serious accident. For years, I lobbied our boarding barn to allow driving as I had multiple horses who had been broken to harness before being broken to saddle. Finally, they allowed it. I pottered around in my little jog cart to exercise my foundered in four legs guy (now departed to the Rainbow Bridge) along with my others. Never had an issue. Always cautious when horses and riders unfamiliar with carts were around, etc.

We also had Friesians with Meadowbrooks and full breeching that would drive. One Friesian had been a driving horse in Holland for 7 years before being imported. He had a novice owner/driver who insisted on driving at times without supervision. One night, he hooked up horse, Meadowbrook, etc. and started work in the arena. Horse bolted. Made it around the first corner. At the second corner, cart flipped on its side dumping the driver out and breaking his leg. Horse continued wildly down the long side of the arena and then jumped the gate with the cart bouncing behind him on its side. Ran through the stable yard until the horse finally slipped and fell. Destroyed the cart, damaged the harness and the horse was fine. Outcome? Driving was banned at our boarding barn. Not because of the cart or harness being used, but because of the lack of common sense of the driver.

That being the best form of exercise for my unrideable boy ... it was determined by the vet (who even wrote him a doctor's excuse) that not driving him shortened his life.

Point is NO carriage and NO harness is exempt from an accident. It would be better to address the skill level of the driver(s) and the accident response by the headers, IMO.

Cartfall

Mar. 23, 2009, 06:32 PM

Cartfall, after horses are well broke to drive then they are conditioned to show. If you are not driving a show horse, no, it is not probably something you would ever do to your horse. But show horse drivers don't gallop their horses through hazards, up and down banks, and into poles as you were just commenting on the Live Oak thread. The lack of concern for the horse's welfare in the name of making a good time on the course in events like combined driving appalls me at times.

Hi Renae,

I made my statement not as a criticism simply an opinion. I looked at that video and it literally made me sick to my stomach. No horse or driver should be caught in such a situation.

Perhaps I feel a little too close to the accident at the water hazard to see it as something comparable to the video wreck. I just don;t see them as being in the same class.

I have shown my horse in such a class in such a cart. I hated it. My opinion again. That reason among others is why I show ADS style pleasure shows, drive CDEs and competitive distance driving. My horses have an on off switch and they don;t need a bag on a stick (as I have seen again and again used a shows and training--and am fully aware that not ALL barns and trainer use such) to put them into a nice dressage frame capable of winning the class.

You are correct that we all have an opinion and we all have likes and dislikes. That is what makes the world go around. I have a number of friends who think I am crazy to drive CDEs and how can I push my horse to drive 30 miles in a single 5 hour period? My horses both love trail and CDEs.
My point is that we do not all have to like all things horse.

What I see in this video is simply a lot of safety issues. I don;t care if you have a header on your horse, if the horse decides to leave, it is gonna leave. Been there done that one-- A snaffle bit is not enough brake on a driving horse (even if the rules say so) in my opinion--that is what curb bits are for.

I have been at a show in class for Ride and Drive when someone who was supposedly an "experienced" driver took the bridle off before the carriage was removed. Tht horse left and went round and round--before it cleared a 4 foot gate with the carriage. Horrific place to be. Thank goodness, the rest of us had our horses off the carriages and only had to stay out of the rampaging horse's way.

The important thing about driving is that is has the potential to be dangerous, we all know this. I have earned my moniker fairly. Perhaps, all we can do is to agree to disagree on what we see in this video.

I do think in all cases--we want safety and continued driving success for all drivers and horses. :sigh:

Jenn2674

Mar. 27, 2009, 05:22 PM

goeslikestink

Mar. 27, 2009, 06:27 PM

I would like to know to what would happen Thomas if a horse and cart like you show bolts, then what is the correct thing to do? I know nothing about driving but it has always scared and facinated me at the same time!

Also, these horses were not, supposedly, green horses. The video I saw did not show them entering the arena and there was at least one comment that noted that this was after they reversed direction so they were at least halfway through the class. So unless someone has some footage that I haven't seen, we have no way to know if the horse was out of control from the beginning.

And whoever asked about the people in the middle. I think the woman sitting in the middle but on the outside of the fence was the handicapped woman in the cart from loose horse #2. Or are you just asking about the whole thing in the middle? I think that is routine at arab shows although I haven't been to an arab show in about a decade!

yes it was me
surely having such a huge thing in the middle isnt pratical and unsafe as seen
as perhaps people like isaid coulf have used that area to move out of trouble and organzied could have funnelled them all out a lo quicker
i think the event was totally dis organised and perhaps the panel of judges should have been in a judges box as there are tv and new technology to see the whole areana at a show

enjoytheride

Mar. 27, 2009, 09:01 PM

I would like to know to what would happen Thomas if a horse and cart like you show bolts, then what is the correct thing to do? I know nothing about driving but it has always scared and facinated me at the same time!

Also, these horses were not, supposedly, green horses. The video I saw did not show them entering the arena and there was at least one comment that noted that this was after they reversed direction so they were at least halfway through the class. So unless someone has some footage that I haven't seen, we have no way to know if the horse was out of control from the beginning.

And whoever asked about the people in the middle. I think the woman sitting in the middle but on the outside of the fence was the handicapped woman in the cart from loose horse #2. Or are you just asking about the whole thing in the middle? I think that is routine at arab shows although I haven't been to an arab show in about a decade!

I know people that were actually there so you don't need a video. This was a very large qualifer class so all these horses had already shown in this arena the day before. The video shows the 2nd day, 2nd class, and the reverse direction. The set up in the middle is standard at arabian and saddlebred shows. These are not green horses, and the horse that started it had never done anything like this before.

slc2

Mar. 28, 2009, 08:03 AM

The people I got my pony from told me they very regularly took horses to shows for classes like these when the horses had had no more than 2-3 times harnessed to a cart and had not been introduced to the cart more than 2-3 days before.

When I asked about getting a driving trainer to break my horse to cart (because of my lack of experience), the seller AND his manager assured me that because I ride I did not need any help and that furthermore, his horses were so easy I didn't need to break him to the cart more than a few days before the show or do any prep work to accustom the horse to harness.

This was a very prominent person in the breed at one time.

Therefore, I really am not sure all the horses are sufficiently trained or experienced.

Tiffani B

Mar. 28, 2009, 08:31 AM

I don't know how Arabian trainers do it, but most Saddlebreds are broke to cart BEFORE they are broke to ride, and they are usually driven 5-6 days a week for 4-6 months before anyone throws a leg over them. Most are broke to cart in January of their two or three year old year, and IF they are shown in harness, they do not see a show until at least April, but probably later. Most are not shown in harness and continue their saddle training over the summer.

A finished show Saddlebred is driven 3-4 times a week and ridden 2-3 times a week. My horse is driven 4 days a week and ridden 2 days a week.

So I would say that, at Saddlebred breed shows at least, the horses are VERY well used to driving, even the young ones.

Chall

Mar. 29, 2009, 12:41 PM

Would plastic "fencing" such as the orange snow fencing have worked to stop a horse ? Unwind it to confine the horse into a section of the ring?( I.E. www.hutchison-inc.com/html/fence_wire/fence/safety.php )
Or would it create a worse situation catching and hanging on to cart shaft etc.

Thomas_1

Mar. 29, 2009, 01:22 PM

No it wouldn't.

The last time I had a pair of driving horses bolt off they went straight through a wood fence and then headed towards another which was wire and wood through a hedge. They jumped the hedge! They went over in a perfect synchronised jump. The carriage crashed through with fence rails and wire trailing behind till it broke or fell off.

A bit of flimsy orange plastic won't make a blind bit of difference to a horse that is in total panic flight and fright mode.

Cartfall

Mar. 29, 2009, 04:28 PM

Just to add a bit about would orange fencing have stopped the horses--nope, remember the horse that crashed into the second horse that ran around the ring after his drive fell out?

That is what amazed me most of all--

hitchinmygetalong

Mar. 29, 2009, 05:36 PM

So I would say that, at Saddlebred breed shows at least, the horses are VERY well used to driving, even the young ones.

Not the one I saw at Louisville last year! This horse was on his hind legs almost the entire class and BARELY under control. You couldn't take your eyes off of him, but it wasn't because he was "that good" - he was shockingly bad!

Oh - he won the class. Go figure. Though I have heard it was an extremely controversial decision and was perhaps reversed later. I don't follow ASB's that closely so I have no idea what the final decision was.

Tiffani B

Mar. 29, 2009, 08:00 PM

Just because a horse is acting up doesn't mean they haven't had a lot of time in the harness, as evidenced by the video this thread is about - the horse who started it all was a seasoned driving horse. Heck, how many times does someone's riding horse act up, have a bad day, whatever? It's not always a sign of poor training or inexperience. There can be all kinds of other reasons why a horse does something.

But regardless, if a horse is acting up, ESPECIALLY if it is rearing or doing other dangerous actions, it should be excused. Some judges are very fast to excuse an ill mannered horse, others are not. Personally I think any horse misbehaving to that extent should immediately be excused from the class - but a judge doesn't always see everything that's going on.

MSP

Apr. 10, 2009, 05:57 PM

I mostly want to comment on the carts. Why are they using a modified jog cart in a pleasure class? Shouldn't a pleasure class have a cart with bigger wheels getting the driver up higher? What I see is a jog cart with a wider seat and a basket, not that it has any bearing on the wreck I just find it strange. I don't see anything wrong with the cart but that basic design is for speed not comfort and I think it probably is fighting the design to have the drivers feet in the basket instead of up in stirrups.

A jog cart or bike should be used for a roadster classes. The point is it is a light weight design made for speed not pleasure. No back rest because, well you are not on a pleasure trip you are going for speed.

I am also a bit tired of the bike bashing. It is what it is, made for racing and training. I have seen some bad ones but like anything else it needs to fit the horse. Maybe this will help, this is a great little piece on the design history of the sulky or bike from 1987. http://www.rjwalsh.com.au/i_faster.htm

Today most of the world is unaware that the current "modified" cart is obsolete. The "modified" cart is now sixteen years old. It lacks structural redundancy, it has a short service life, and the records set in it are starting to fall to the newer carts. It will only cease to be widely used when enough people become aware of its inferior performance.

Summing up; what have we learnt about setting ourselves up for maximum speed, based on a century of accumulated knowledge?

WEIGHT. It is vitally important to realise that nothing I or Pickard have written disputes the fact that, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, it is best to have as light a sulky/driver combination as possible.

... Pickard provided his usual accurate data with respect to driver weight. There is a linear relationship between driver weight and uplift (negative balance) such that a 110 pound driver with the sulky hitched to a 14-hand horse achieved a maximum of 9 pounds of lift, while a 210 pound driver in a sulky hitched to a 17-hand horse achieved a 48 pound lift.

The reason for the higher negative balance achievable on a bigger horse is that; the higher the shafts are raised, the more the wheels move away from the driver's centre of gravity and towards the horse. Thus the ratio that determines uplift is changed to enable more uplift to be achieved with no other changes to the sulky's configuration. This is why I always advise purchasers of steel shafted sulkies to hitch the shafts as high as possible on the saddle.

Thus, for a given sulky configuration, the greater uplift achieved by the heavier driver will tend to offset the increased rolling resistance resulting from his extra weight, but, as the graph (Fig. 4.) shows, the greater uplift NEVER entirely offsets the weight disadvantage of the heavier driver.

BALANCE. Negative balance is the only way to go. We want to achieve a negative load (ie; lifting the horse via the girth strap) on the horse of between 20 and 50 pounds (9 to 23 Kgs) depending on driver weight and sulky configuration.

WHEELS. As light as possible, and fitted with lightweight (white) discs that extend all the way to the rim on both sides of the wheel with NO valve access holes. Tyres should be lightweight, as near to 4.5 cms wide as possible, inflated to the recommended pressure. The wheels MUST be checked for skew; ie; no toe-in or toe-out is permissable.

HARNESS. As light as possible, short traces, wide elastic girth, with the sulky hitched as high as possible on the saddle.

I have an 40 plus year old jog cart and it is not my idea of light but compared to say a Pacific cart with steel wheels it is very light probably under 100 lbs. I used it with out incident and I love a jog cart because I love roadsters. Saying it is more dangerous than a heavy pleasure cart and it shouldn't be used is like saying no one should drive a sports car because they are dangerous. Well, I guess if you let a teenager drive it might be!;)

Whisper

Apr. 15, 2009, 06:56 PM

I noticed a lot of references to the "second loose horse" being the one who they tried to rope, but he was actually the third one. The second loose horse was also collided with, at 1:15 into the video, but quickly calmed down and was caught. A couple of people compared their behaviour to that of the Percherons, but I felt they behaved well under the circumstances - none tried to get away until they were physically hit by loose horse #1.

As to getting out of the carts/unhitching, once a header/groom was available, it sounds like that would have been the best solution, but again, if the horse ran into them while they were unhitching, or they just spooked, it could have been even worse. Normally, going to the middle and staying in the cart with a header is the safest approach, especially since they tried to get horses out of the ring, and deemed it too dangerous. If they let the loose horses out into a non-fenced area, that would have been even worse! I do think that the grooms running around with coats flapping just scared the loose horses even worse.

That tack/cart type is what is used for fine harness, but it did look to me like the sizing was incorrect for some of the horses, and the shafts/cart were tipped upward.

SLC, the little enclosure in the middle with the judge/scribe/etc. is common in saddle seat and fine harness classes, and some hunter classes. I agree that it seems like a bad idea!

Cielo Azure

Apr. 15, 2009, 10:34 PM

I SLC, the little enclosure in the middle with the judge/scribe/etc. is common in saddle seat and fine harness classes, and some hunter classes. I agree that it seems like a bad idea!

I think that why those middle judging areas are used is because when judging in those coloseums, a judge would have a heck of a time seeing the carts, riders, etc from a judging box to the side. They really are huge inside. Furthermore, the judge needs to walk around and inspect each cart (that means they would have to go in their anyway). In fact, the judge would still be out there in the arena during the show as would the ringmaster. Then the ringmaster would have to walk a LONG way to get to the announcer/secretary. Usually there are stairs involved to get to and from the sides of the arena also (hard to negotiate). In all the shows I have been too in those huge arenas, that is the first time I have seen or heard of a wreck or runaway run into one. I don't know it this is a defense or not...just a sound reason why they are used.

Dazednconfused

Apr. 16, 2009, 01:25 AM

I'm also seriously wondering that if you reckon that everything was so spot on correct and safe in that class why you think there was such a dreadful accident?

Except for the fact that it wasn't particularly horrific in the end. All horses, drivers, and grooms were fine. A few minor injuries. All the horses went on to be driven again. It's a testament to the skill of everyone involved - and it speaks for itself that everyone ended up just fine. I would certainly tend to agree if one of them had been seriously injured or killed - but they didn't. And that's largely because of the skillful work of the headers, trainers, and drivers.

It's very easy to judge when one has the benefit of hindsight! :winkgrin:

Thomas_1

Apr. 16, 2009, 02:42 AM

Dazed and confused!!!!

Well for sure that has got to be the most perverse illogical conclusion I've come across for some time.

So there's a serious accident and because no one is killed that means everyone is skillful....... yeh right!

IMO you didn't find it easy to judge. Not even with the benefit of hindsight!

goeslikestink

Apr. 16, 2009, 06:19 AM

Except for the fact that it wasn't particularly horrific in the end. All horses, drivers, and grooms were fine. A few minor injuries. All the horses went on to be driven again. It's a testament to the skill of everyone involved - and it speaks for itself that everyone ended up just fine. I would certainly tend to agree if one of them had been seriously injured or killed - but they didn't. And that's largely because of the skillful work of the headers, trainers, and drivers.

It's very easy to judge when one has the benefit of hindsight! :winkgrin:

if they was as skilled as intendedly said and the show organsied with more safety in mind then there most probably wouldnt have been any accidents
there wasnt enough ring stewards and as it was a little ring then less entries should have been apparent

Renae

Apr. 16, 2009, 08:48 AM

if they was as skilled as intendedly said and the show organsied with more safety in mind then there most probably wouldnt have been any accidents
there wasnt enough ring stewards and as it was a little ring then less entries should have been apparent

Hogwash. Everyone has accidents, at every level. I'm sorry, maybe you are the perfect person who never has an accident who we should all be emulating. Why the type of carts that are used are used is in part because you have varying ring sizes, you have center ring to contend with, and you can have up to 15 entries in a class. You are expected to show your horse at the speed that it best shows, to pass other entries and to "make passes" when your horse is showing well, not just follow each other on the rail at one speed like plugs. I still think that it is notable that not one of the people who continues to hark on this video is not a successful participant in this type of showing. This video has been analyzed to death, and the conculsion that some of you have drawn from a few minutes of video that you are better and mor knowledgeable horsemen is just plain wrong. I really think it is time to start posting all the combined driving wrecks, racing wrecks, general pleasure driving wrecks and so forth and declaring all of those people incompentant as well. Really, get over yourselves.

Dazednconfused, I agree with your assessment. I wonder how many here could have taken the horse that fell in the end of the video and have it driving again and winning a national championship that same show season? I'm sure many here would not even know where to start in making sure that he was safe to hook again, let alone confident and still "traffic" safe, yet they feel very free to critiscize everyone involved in this incident.

SmokenMirrors

Apr. 16, 2009, 09:47 AM

Hogwash. Everyone has accidents, at every level. I'm sorry, maybe you are the perfect person who never has an accident who we should all be emulating. Why the type of carts that are used are used is in part because you have varying ring sizes, you have center ring to contend with, and you can have up to 15 entries in a class. You are expected to show your horse at the speed that it best shows, to pass other entries and to "make passes" when your horse is showing well, not just follow each other on the rail at one speed like plugs. I still think that it is notable that not one of the people who continues to hark on this video is not a successful participant in this type of showing. This video has been analyzed to death, and the conculsion that some of you have drawn from a few minutes of video that you are better and mor knowledgeable horsemen is just plain wrong. I really think it is time to start posting all the combined driving wrecks, racing wrecks, general pleasure driving wrecks and so forth and declaring all of those people incompentant as well. Really, get over yourselves.

Dazednconfused, I agree with your assessment. I wonder how many here could have taken the horse that fell in the end of the video and have it driving again and winning a national championship that same show season? I'm sure many here would not even know where to start in making sure that he was safe to hook again, let alone confident and still "traffic" safe, yet they feel very free to critiscize everyone involved in this incident.

I think I qualify for that. It may not be driving per say as in a cart...but..I have a draft mare who can do it all. We were out in our field with the skid taking small round logs my husband had cut then I would drive her over to the gate, through it, and to a friends truck where we would stop and our friends wife would unload the round logs into their truck. As I went back for our second load, my two horses, who were loose and a big mistake (I learned the hard way and it won't happen again) suddenly bolted at something and shot by Smoke. Smoke saw them go by and I had just asked her to walk on, she lurched forward, I tried to keep her in check but when she did the logs got jostled and a few fell off, I tripped over them, lost my lines and off she went. She ran between a large tree and our fence, the skid catching on the tree, ripping it off the single tree, so the sound of that caused her to go around our pasture to the other side and stand there dancing.

All in all I learned a very hard and valuable lesson and no one was hurt. My pride most of all but I did hitch her back up and she was back to doing what she does best, driving and working. It may not be a "championship" but I didn't stop nor did I wait. And yes she is still traffic safe and dead broke, if you would ever like to come to the farm, we can go out and drive for a bit. Difference between myself and those in that ring is I use my mare all the time in every situation you can think of, from the show ring to teaching children who have a perchance to wrap themselves around her legs to under saddle, etc...

Ashemont

Apr. 16, 2009, 10:32 AM

I wonder how many here could have taken the horse that fell in the end of the video and have it driving again and winning a national championship that same show season?

If the horse is broken so well - and I would hope a national champion IS well-trained - I expect many on this list could've done the same. Geez! My green pony bolted while I was unhitching - don't know what set her off but since she had previously been abused there's no telling. She drug my other pony and the carriage through the barn, crashing into another carriage and running right through the gate on the back of the barn! Once in the open my more experienced pony turned her and the carriage to avoid crashing through another gate, and came back to the barn.

As the green pony stood there trembling I calmly re-hitched and took them out for another drive. Sure, the pony was tense, but she had been well-broken and soon settled in. Two days later we were doing our very first CDE :)

Now while I'm an experienced horsewoman, I still consider myself a novice driver. I think the proper training of the horse comes into play more than the experience of the driver. Horses forgive us humans so many stupid things :lol:

MSP

Apr. 16, 2009, 10:56 AM

Hogwash. Everyone has accidents, at every level. I'm sorry, maybe you are the perfect person who never has an accident who we should all be emulating. Why the type of carts that are used are used is in part because you have varying ring sizes, you have center ring to contend with, and you can have up to 15 entries in a class. You are expected to show your horse at the speed that it best shows, to pass other entries and to "make passes" when your horse is showing well, not just follow each other on the rail at one speed like plugs. I still think that it is notable that not one of the people who continues to hark on this video is not a successful participant in this type of showing. This video has been analyzed to death, and the conclusion that some of you have drawn from a few minutes of video that you are better and mor knowledgeable horsemen is just plain wrong. I really think it is time to start posting all the combined driving wrecks, racing wrecks, general pleasure driving wrecks and so forth and declaring all of those people incompentant as well. Really, get over yourselves.

Dazednconfused, I agree with your assessment. I wonder how many here could have taken the horse that fell in the end of the video and have it driving again and winning a national championship that same show season? I'm sure many here would not even know where to start in making sure that he was safe to hook again, let alone confident and still "traffic" safe, yet they feel very free to critiscize everyone involved in this incident.

I don't think a pleasure class holds the same risk as a CDE or racing, or at least it shouldn't. Both are speed events, one you get close to obstacles and the other you are right on top of other carts and horses. If you want to take a turn at racing here you go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGDG7hQIEM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JKQ_qAhuys&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8wjfj_DkT4

Is it dangerous? You betcha! Do drivers make mistakes? Do horses sometimes run around crazed? Will the drivers get critiqued by the officials and peers? You betcha!

I was discussing the cart with some one and they said one reason that type of cart is used may be the need to plow through the thick footing in those arenas. But again I don't think type of cart had a barring on this accident.

Regarding driving a horse after a wreck; I have as well. When I met my gelding he was recuperating from bowed tendons and had been whipped by a drunk trainer until he went over backwards on the cart (I was told). My job was to get him back to racing. I was 14 years old. Long story short; Ace refused to backup and would attack anyone with a whip. I trail rode him for months to get his head back and get him to trust me. Then one day I put him to the cart and we were off. Trail driving did wonders for him and when it came time for him to head back to the trainers it wasn't long before I asked to keep him. He never did go back to racing but I bet he would have been fine. He never forgot the accident but he learned to trust again.

Renae

Apr. 16, 2009, 11:12 AM

Sorry, I am just tired of the people on this board who continue to bash the people involved with the incident, some of whom are people I know and this being the type of driving that I do, when I know for a fact that if this exact same incident was videoed and posted but at a different type of event with some other people's friends involved this bashing would not be going on. Many that I used to think well of on this board and learn things from their posts and hoped that they had learned things from mine have now left a very ill taste in my mouth and I will not again read what they have typed with any seriousness.

Driving accidents are an anamoly at our horse shows, this incident here being from several years ago. I have not seen a driving accident in person at any show I have been to in over 10 years. What we do with our horses, the equipment we use and all else is not inheritently unsafe as some of you keep repeating. You are just plain wrong.

Beasmom

Apr. 16, 2009, 11:37 AM

Perhaps, Renae, since you know some of the people involved with the wreck, you are too emotionally involved to form a rational opinion.

I have friends who sometimes do stupid things. About as tough a comment I will make to them is, "well, I bet you don't do THAT again". When I do something stupid, I say the same thing to myself.

But I don't defend my friends' actions if they were wrong just because they are my friends. Wrong is wrong, and stupid is stupid, and there are consequences for doing wrong and stupid things.

Tiffani B

Apr. 16, 2009, 11:56 AM

No, Renae has experience with this type of equipment and these (types of) horses to know that this is not the norm, nor was the equipment the cause of the accident. She is not "too close" to be able to form a rational opinion.

I also show pleasure driving horses, in these same carts and harnesses and bits, and have done so for over 20 years. In my decades of experience, I have witnessed TWO similar incidents. I show once a month in some of the largest classes in the country (for this type of class). It is NOT common.

Claiming things like

If the horse were pulling [enter name of other cart type here] this would not have happened
If the horse were wearing [enter name of bit here] this would not have happened
If the horse were wearing breeching this would not have happened
If the horse had been properly trained this would not have happened
If there hadn't been a center ring this would not have happened

is all utter NONSENSE.

Renae's point is, accidents EXACTLY LIKE THIS happen with driving horses REGARDLESS of cart type, bit type, harness type, breeching or none, center ring or none, green horse or veteran - and I daresay, green driver or veteran. Some of the equipment being proposed as "safer" may in fact have made this accident WORSE. Some of it being proposed as "better" would not have done a darned thing to improve or prevent the situation. And some of the ideas (no center ring, having a cowboy there to rope loose horses) are just ridiculous.

Yet no one is interested in acknowledging those points, except those of us who actually have EXPERIENCE with these driving horses and this type of equipment. We know how our gear works, where the balance points are, how the horses are trained to respond to the bits we use... YOU DO NOT. You are making assumptions based on YOUR background and how you train YOUR horses. Those parallels do not transfer correctly.

Cartfall

Apr. 16, 2009, 12:59 PM

Hasn;t this been beat to death?

Tiffani B

Apr. 16, 2009, 01:19 PM

Hasn;t this been beat to death?

No KIDDING!

hitchinmygetalong

Apr. 16, 2009, 02:58 PM

I've been a silent observer on this thread since the beginning, but I would like to say something if you don't mind.

For those who feel defensive over the more outspoken critiques, bear in mind that Thomas and GLS are in England. I doubt they have anything close to the type of showing that was in the video. I get the distinct impression from them that their rules are very different when it comes to pleasure driving classes, and I also have to wonder if there are breed shows where the driving rules are different than in open shows.

Perhaps that is why they are so vocal in their shock at what happened.

I'm glad no one was (seriously) hurt. I'm glad the horses were able to be driven again. But you all must agree that this was a very, very scary incident. Please don't brush it off simply because no one got carried off by an ambulance.

I'm sure lessons were learned.

Tiffani B

Apr. 16, 2009, 03:25 PM

For those who feel defensive over the more outspoken critiques, bear in mind that Thomas and GLS are in England. I doubt they have anything close to the type of showing that was in the video. I get the distinct impression from them that their rules are very different when it comes to pleasure driving classes, and I also have to wonder if there are breed shows where the driving rules are different than in open shows.

Yea, but apparently we should change the rules to fit THEIR idea of "safe" and "proper". And, Thomas claims to have a plethora of experience with these carts, harnesses and high-steppers so he is qualified to speak here. Although to paraphrase him, time in the cart doesn't equal experience...

Whisper

Apr. 16, 2009, 10:37 PM

Cielo, I don't think the center ring was a contributing factor to the accident, but I think the fencing looks scary, especially with carts that could catch a wheel on it. I've seen them used in various shows, and I agree that they give a better view than from the sidelines.

Tiffani and Renae, I haven't driven in fine harness style, but I have driven an easy-entry cart with pneumatic wheels, and have been at two barns where people drove fine harness saddlebreds and morgans, respectively. I've also been to a couple of shows that had fine harness divisions. I had the impression that the shafts were normally level, rather than pointing upward, with that style of cart.

I agree, sometimes things happen with horses, and while trying to analyse the contributing factors can be useful, you can't necessarily pin down the "why." Even the steady-eddiest horse can have a bad day, and certainly getting slammed into is enough to set most horses off.

I had that happen to me one time (not with a horse in harness). I was riding a TB gelding I was leasing, and a pony either completely bolted, or just did a spook-and-scoot that scared her little rider so badly that she didn't steer. The pony was in the middle, so we stopped about a foot and a half away from the rail. Pony came barreling in as fast as her little legs would carry her, *underneath* my horse, rider screaming her head off. The pony's neck was under his belly, her head was up against the fence, rider's tummy was shoved against my calf while she leaned back, still screaming. If there had been room, I think the pony would have kept going and scraped the kid off, or gotten stuck partway through with the rider underneath him. Fortunately, my horse just braced for the impact, went "Oof!" and just craned his neck around to look at the pony inquisitively. He waited patiently until the kid was able to back away, which felt like an eternity, but was actually about 10 seconds. It could so easily have gotten ugly, and I really wouldn't have blamed him if he'd been scared enough to take off or kick or something! The herd instinct to get as close to other horses as possible when they are scared out of their mind is so powerful!

Tiffani B

Apr. 16, 2009, 11:10 PM

The shafts aren't usually level unless the horse is VERY small, and then I'd say the cart would be too big. The balance of the cart is more stable when the shafts are slightly angled upwards.

Here (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XQDHlQe_0qlHOwxbjVtqxw?feat=directlink) is a photo of my driving my 16.2 hand horse. Notice my SEAT is level - but the shafts are angled upwards.

Here (http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/43267/2183911640033872083S600x600Q85.jpg) is the same cart on a 15 hand horse.

You can see the design of the cart means it is virtually impossible for the shafts to be level, because they are not SUPPOSED to be level. If they were level the shaft would be about the height of the horses' elbow!

These carts are designed and made by the same companies who make racing sulkies (Jerald, Houghton, etc). Perhaps they used the same concepts of balance for these types of carts as they do their racing bikes. Regardless, these carts are SAFE, comfortable and heavy.

AQHA4me

Apr. 17, 2009, 09:18 AM

I am so happy to finally see someone step in and be the voice of reason. I am so tired of hearing why everything is wrong. The truth of the matter is if we want to show our horses in these classes, that is the correct equipment to use. I have driven standardbreds and am now breaking my horse to drive. If I applied my logic to what Thomas and others are saying, they are completely wrong to canter in the cart. That to me was rule number 1 I was taught, we only walk and trot and correct the horse if they ever canter. So, am I allowed to be preachy about that?

In the stock horse circles, the horses that drive are some of the best broke things out there. I'm sure that Thomas would have a heart attack if he read the equipment rules, blinders are optional, as are thimbles and breeching. I can tell you this, my horse was valuable was a show horse before I started driving him, I have a Houghton cart and a Smuckers Harness, if you knew what I have invested in cart, harness and horse, you would know that I am not going to set out to get anything damaged.

It is what it is, if you don't like it, please don't come out to our shows and tell us that we are wrong. No one is right or wrong, its just different. I have no desire to gallop thru an course of hazzards while sitting in a 4 wheeled buggy. Give my my jog cart and breast collar harness with thimbles and I'm content to trot around my arena all day long. This video made me consider worst case scinario actions. I have a plan now of what I will do if something similar ever occurs while I am in the pen. I am happy that I have seen it and consider myself better educated as a result.

MSP

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:11 AM

Whisper, as Tiffani stated these are not easy entry carts, they are modified jog carts. See how the seat is mounted on the shafts. See my post a page or two back where I posted the results of test done on bike designs. Here is a Roadster class using the bike or jog cart as it was originally designed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kat_bMB_wZQ See the basic design is like the cart in the Pleasure class. You can also see that the shafts are closer to level because they are ponies.

Speaking of the roadster classes I was wondering if the breed pleasure classes kind of evolved from the roadster and perhaps they just modified the cart. I am really curious how they came to use these carts instead of what would be considered more of a traditional pleasure cart. Any one know?

War Admiral

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:35 AM

Speaking of the roadster classes I was wondering if the breed pleasure classes kind of evolved from the roadster and perhaps they just modified the cart. I am really curious how they came to use these carts instead of what woulds be considered more of a traditional pleasure cart. Any one know?

Because it's "fine" harness, not "light" harness, is what I was taught. "Light" harness I think evolved into the ADS-style stuff, and "fine" harness, which is the upscale/prancy/just-for-show stuff.

If you think about the construction of the vehicles and the intended purpose, you realize it really does make sense for the job it's being asked to do. What is Fine Harness driving all about? Dressage? Nope. Road work? Nope. It's all about lightening up the front end... When the driver gets into the show cart, his/her weight causes the shafts (already pointing upward) to exert UPWARD pressure on the girth area, thus (further) encouraging the horse to lighten up front.

FWIW, an awful lot of the best pro trainers I know in both disciplines are familiar with both disciplines and use the methods of each as they may be applicable in a particular situation. I know a World Championship winning Saddlebred trainer who works ALL his young stock in Meadowbrooks/road carts whenever he takes them outside the arena. It's safer, it's more sensible, it also gets them a lot fitter a lot faster. And by the same token, I also know a WEG CDE medalist who starts all HIS young stock.... in an arena, in a jog cart. :D

You have to understand the purpose of each tool before you can use it effectively.

Tiffani B

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:58 AM

MSP

Apr. 17, 2009, 11:56 AM

Thanks WA that makes a lot of sense! So what is good for speed turned out to be good for lightening the front for fine harness. :cool:

War Admiral

Apr. 17, 2009, 11:59 AM

Thanks WA that makes a lot of sense! So what is good for speed turned out to be good for lightening the front for fine harness. :cool:

Well, it's 2 different reasons to use that setup; both are valid. ;)

Tiffani B

Apr. 17, 2009, 12:06 PM

When the driver gets into the show cart, his/her weight causes the shafts (already pointing upward) to exert UPWARD pressure on the girth area, thus (further) encouraging the horse to lighten up front.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I have hooked hundreds of horses over the years, and have never noticed the shafts lifting or even changing height with the driver in the cart vs out.

Perhaps the shafts do not exert downward pressure that maybe another cart design might do, but there is no upward pressure (that I've observed, anyways).

SmokenMirrors

Apr. 17, 2009, 01:14 PM

I have been taught that the shaft end should be at the shoulder, not past it like some of those photo's shown are. The shafts, if they begin to point upward, do cause different pressure on the saddle of the harness, it can cause rubs, and they should be even. They also should "float" in the shaft pockets, but then again, my reasoning is from my own driving experience and driving a draft horse. If my shafts were sticking out further than my mare's shoulder, it would impede in her turning, hitting her in the shoulder and I know she would balk, as well she should. My shafts are straight, my traced are snug and I have an all around happy driving horse:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a279/teampennin2/OldDominion139.jpg

This is just my.02 worth....Maybe someone with a more practiced eye can add or say what they think.

Tiffani B

Apr. 17, 2009, 01:45 PM

Lovely horse! I just love how BIIIIG drafts are.

I'm not sure how wide your shafts are, but the shafts on a pleasure cart are bowed outwards. They are several inches away from the horse - the horse can't really come in contact with them, unless they are turning VERY sharply. And yes, the shafts "float" in the holders. They cannot move forward because there is a shaft stop behind the holder (acts just like breeching or thimbles).

Properly adjusted, the shafts on a pleasure cart should stop at the shoulder, not extend past it nor stop back of the shoulder. Mine are about right, possibly one hole too far forward on my new horse (I finally got new traces so I can get my cart a bit further back, yaay!).

mares tails

Apr. 17, 2009, 02:37 PM

I have been taught that the shaft end should be at the shoulder, not past it like some of those photo's shown are.

Just because it's in a photo on the web, doesn't mean it's correct :winkgrin:

It's hard to tell from the pix, but some look like the seat is tipped back (i.e. shafts too high).

SuperSTB

Apr. 17, 2009, 02:57 PM

I'm by no means an expert but Pic #1 doesn't look too correct in my opinion- actually a few things concern me. #4, I also question a few things.

I think you have to take in cart mfg'er's design. I was told that the cart should be balanced and "float" when there is a driver (and passenger). So have a person hold the shafts, then have a driver (and passenger if nec) get in the cart. With driver (and passenger) sitting correctly- the person holding the shafts should not feel upward or downward pressure from said shafts.
Pardon if this was already mentioned- I haven't finished reading the entire thread yet.

Tiffani B

Apr. 17, 2009, 03:13 PM

My point in posting those four photos is that it is not ONLY on our show pleasure carts that the shafts are not level. The venerable Meadowbrook also features shafts that tilt upwards.

And since we are now discussing the shafts "floating", yes, the shafts float on our pleasure carts, as well as the fine harness carts/viceroys. They are properly balanced.

SmokenMirrors

Apr. 17, 2009, 03:15 PM

Just because it's in a photo on the web, doesn't mean it's correct :winkgrin:

It's hard to tell from the pix, but some look like the seat is tipped back (i.e. shafts too high).

No no I agree...I suppose I should of said that looking at the photo's it looks like then gone on with what I was going to say.

I am learning that some shafts are bowed out some to stay away from the equines sides, others are straight, like mine are on my cart. Different styles for different breeds...

Renae

Apr. 17, 2009, 05:24 PM

Speaking of the roadster classes I was wondering if the breed pleasure classes kind of evolved from the roadster and perhaps they just modified the cart. I am really curious how they came to use these carts instead of what would be considered more of a traditional pleasure cart. Any one know?

I would definatly say similiar roots as Saddlebreds and Morgans are from the same base stock as the Standardbred and Arabians also are used in the same roll in this country. All 3 of these breeds once upon a time had Roadster to Bike classes at their shows but the Morgan is the only breed that regularly has Roadster breed classes anymore. For gaits you are asked to walk, trot and then do either an extended trot, road trot or strong trot, but in pleasure driving classes you are never instrutced to "show your horse" as you do in fine harness, show your horse meaning to exhibit the horse at the speed that best befits him, wether it be the same speed, faster or even slower. In pleasure driving you use the same type of harness a roadster uses with a square blinker bridle, overcheck (although some rules allow for a side check) and such. All in all you look at the roots of American driving, what did the common man drive? If you look at old pictures you see light breastcollar harness, snaffle bits, overchecks, and light 4 wheeled wagons. People often driving with a rein in each hand and a straight buggy whip without a drop on it. http://oral.granvillehistory.org/images/200HoweHorseBuggy%20OPT.jpg Driving based on what was necessary, safe, functional and affordable. Obviously show ring driivng has evolved, but that was its base, where the American show horse trainer came from, in his day he was firstly a business man in the business of turning out safe, useful horses for the general public, the show horse business was a spin off of the horse trader's and trainer's work, it was a place for them to show off their skill and the quality of horses that they bred or had available. This story about Tom Bass touches on all of that history very well http://www.horseconnection.com/site/story-nov08.html http://www.horseconnection.com/site/story-dec08.html

goodhors

Apr. 17, 2009, 07:42 PM

Easy entry carts do not have level shafts. Even MEADOWBROOK carts do not have level shafts!!!

Pic 1 (http://portraitswithhorses.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/HorseArabPerchCart.jpg)

Pic 2 (http://www.lmvogne.dk/images/meadowbrook/meadowbrook4.jpg)

Pic 3 (http://www.vermontel.com/~greenall/clients/images/meadowbrookcones.jpg)

Pic 4 (http://www.carriagedriving.net/classifieds/user_images/5089743.jpg)

Level shafts do not equal safer or better. The overall cart design must be taken into consideration, and I'm sure the makers of these carts have far more knowledge about safety, balance and weight distribution than we do.

Have to add here, that I would consder these photo vehicles poorly fitting on those horses. I want the straight shaft of a road cart, to ride level on level ground, along the side of horse. Road driving carts are larger, heavier, with wooden wheels, regardless of which style they are built after.

If shafts are pointing upward as shown in the above photos, the wheels need to be larger or horse needs a different vehicle. Vehicles are all too small, as shown, for the animal hitched to cart.

I would consider the photo with pony and curved shafts, to also be too small behind. The flat part of shafts beside passengers, is uphill, not level. The fit of full collar on him. appears to be too large as well. That will probably sore him up, which is called scalded shoulders.

These road vehicles are designed to RIDE LEVEL when hitched and passengers are seated. Level shafts allow that magic "float" point to happen, when traveling on level ground. Float is easy on the horse. No WEIGHT on the horse back as he works. If shafts are uphill, the pressure is on the top of tug loop, pulling overgirth upward, maybe soring the horse. Sored horse will often over-react, not safe.

You can't get float when shafts are ALWAYS UPHILL. Passenger movement in the seat will affect the float of shafts in the tug loops. Going up or down hill, will affect the float, you won't have float in those places because the passengers will be out of balance.

And from experience, an uphill ride in a road vehicle on a flat road, is UNCOMFORTABLE for the passengers as well as the horse. You spend all your time fighting to hold your seat position, can't get balanced. Very tiring on long drives.

Level in these road vehicles affects the HORSE and his comfort in work. That can affect the safety of the turnout.
Makers of these vehicles are NOT RESPONSIBLE for people putting their carts on animals that are TOO LARGE for that sized cart. They just build and sell a cart, then how cart is used is out of their control.

Just because these photo folks don't know how to fit a cart to their horse, does NOT make them good examples to prove your point. I see lots of ill-fitted road vehicles, owners of horse DO NOT want to hear about it. UNWILLING to take any measure to fix the problem. Wrong fit is is still wrong fitting, even if they do not want to acknowledge it.

Shafts should ALWAYS ride level on these road vehicles, with long shaft tip even with the horse point-of-shoulder when harnessed. Shafts can be fitted around horse body, curved in at saddle, with flared out tips. Shaft still should ride level, cart body level, with shaft tip even with the point-of-shoulder. ADS site has a table for fitting cart shafts and leveling them up. Helpful to learners and folks shopping for carts, they can measure and know what works on their horse to fit him correctly.

Curved or Gig shafts, are fitted slightly differently, but the BODY of cart vehicle is riding LEVEL, never up hill or down hill on flat ground. Their shafts probably will not float, because harnesses often use a different kind of tug loop that locks around the shaft.

4-wheel vehicle shafts put NO WEIGHT on horse in work, so have different fitting rules. No comparing 2 and 4 wheel shaft fit.

Tiffani B

Apr. 17, 2009, 10:06 PM

Thank you for your description of how a road cart should fit.

We do not use road carts, so our fit, balance and shaft tilt is different.

Again, please take a look at the two photos I posted two pages back of how OUR carts fit a horse - and draw a level line from where the shaft attaches to the cart. You will see there is no possible way the shafts could ever be level. Therefore, it is quite obvious that the balance of the cart was DESIGNED to ride with the shafts tilted upwards.

So many different ways to do the same thing. It's what makes the world go round! :)

Whisper

Apr. 18, 2009, 10:03 PM

It looks reasonably balanced with the 15 hand horse,, but is sticking up past a 45 degree angle on the 16 hand horse! Nothing wrong with the cart's balance as a vehicle, it just doesn't seem to fit him. :sigh: In pic3 you can clearly see that the whole cart is very tilted, though that may be exacerbated by the slight hill. In pic2, the shafts start out parallel to the ground, then are shaped to go up, then down. I'm not familiar with that style, so I can't really comment on it. In pic1, the cart should have bigger wheels to make the horse more comfortable, I think, but it's not as extreme as the one with your 16 hand horse.

I know jog carts are different from easy entry carts, just saying that is the most similar setup I've personally driven, since it has thimbles instead of breeching, and pneumatic tires. I've been at two barns with lots of Saddlebred and Morgan fine harness horses, and they were fit more similarly to the 15 hand horse than the 16 hand one. Of course, it could be more a matter of aesthetics than safety/comfort, just that was something that stood out to me.

Tiffani B

Apr. 19, 2009, 11:36 AM

On the 16 hand horse, the traces are too short, pulling the cart too far forward, resulting in a steeper shaft angle. I just got my longer traces so the cart will be back further for the next show, and the shafts won't be so tilted.

Even so, at the slightly steeper angle, the shafts still float in the traces. There is a "range" at which the cart is balanced and it falls within that range on both horses.

MSP

Apr. 20, 2009, 03:17 PM

If you look at old pictures you see light breastcollar harness, snaffle bits, overchecks, and light 4 wheeled wagons. People often driving with a rein in each hand and a straight buggy whip without a drop on it.

This reminds me of an article I read in a Harpers magazine from 1896 titled "The art of Driving" http://books.google.com/books?id=X2QCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=titlepage#PPA513,M1

I will paste some of the most applicable sections below, sorry but it lost all punctuation. I was both surprised and enlightened by this when I first read it. And it seems American driving has been greatly influenced by the British but much of the Roadster heritage remains intact. :winkgrin:

THERE are many city bred people who have no opportunity to enjoy the use of horses until they have reached a mature age and I was asked recently by one of this class if there was any book or treatise which taught the art of driving There is of course the volume on Driving in the very interesting Badminton Series But this book deals chiefly with the management of four in hands and tandems with coaches and post chaises and what it has to say about driving a single horse or a pair is of very little value especially for the American reader In fact the English are almost entirely unpractised in the fine art of driving single horses and pairs They have no trotters scarcely any fast roadsters and the dog cart which they usually employ with a single horse is very heavy weighing from four to six hundred pounds so that it is not adapted for quick work or even for long distances.

Moreover the English almost always use the curb bit which effectually controls the horse but does not enable the driver to stimulate him nor to steady him nor to communicate with him in the various ways which as we shall presently see are possible when a snaffle is used The cardinal principle of English driving is that the reins should be held in the left hand only the whip being kept in the right hand and this is doubtless the true manner in which all horses fitted with curbs should be driven Even in turning to the right or left the left hand only should be used the driver guiding his horses by a turn of the wrist When he wants to slacken speed or to pull up the right hand still holding the whip should grasp the reins back of the left hand the left hand can then be shifted forward so as to shorten the reins and both hands if necessary can be used in stopping the horses In this way the dog cart horse should be managed the driver sitting erect and wielding …

An American should be able to drive his roadster or family horse or even his trotter with the left hand in the manner just described if only for variety but as a rule he should employ both hands the reins being held as follows Coming from the bit they pass between the little finger and the third finger across the palm of the hand and over the thumb one rein in each hand be it remembered and then if a particularly firm hold is wanted the rein after passing over the thumb may be grasped again by the fingers When you want either to shorten or to lengthen the reins it is done by seizing the rein back of the left hand between the thumb and forefinger of the right hand so that the left hand is then free to move up or down the rein as may be desired and when this has been done the same process is repeated with the right hand In lengthening a rein it may be found more convenient to grasp it in front of rather than behind the hand which holds it A beginner usually finds his greatest difficulty in pulling up for instead of shifting the reins in the manner just indicated he attempts to stop his horses by moving his hands toward his head Many accidents occur in this way especially with a pair for while the driver is frantically waving his hands above his head the pole of his carriage is smashing the panels or getting caught in the wheels of some contiguous vehicle or perhaps punching an innocent pedestrian in the back As for the figure which the driver cuts under such circumstances it is well …

Now that we have discussed these rudimentary matters let us take a look at the harness of our horse and in the first place at the bit What suits one horse may not suit another but the bit most commonly used is the snaffle ie a plain bit jointed in the middle and it should be of good size for if too small it has a cutting effect and becomes a severe bit The best snaffles I have found were in London The nickel plating of an American bit is always badly done However this is only the ornamental part and excepting the plain snaffle the best bits for roadsters and trotters are American inventions and especially is this true of bits intended for soft mouthed horses The only trouble is that some of these Kot of correcting the habit that be done …

equine constitution Next to the matter of bits comes the much vexed question of check reins Numerous tracts have been written by inexperienced persons of sedentary habits to prove that check reins are always instruments of torture and such they often are Most horses of mature age do not require them But on the other hand to take off the check rein from a high spirited or vicious horse is often to invite a terrible accident Without a check rein a horse can bend his neck till his head touches his breast and in that position he is absolutely uncontrollable A side check adjusted so as to hold the horse's head at its natural height and no higher is usually the most suitable for a roadster In the case of straight necked high headed horses even the overdraw check can be employed on short drives without cruelty and its use enables the driver to dispense with the severe bit which might otherwise be necessary to control a half broken or impetuous animal But the subject has not yet been exhausted Some horses undoubtedly travel more easily if they wear a moderate side check than they do when their heads are free Without the check they get to shuffling and shambling and they are apt to stumble whereas with the check they are better balanced their …

Another vexed subject is that of blinders or winkers High spirited intelligent horses are usually safer in open bridles for they can look behind them and see what is coming It is an advantage also and a pleasure besides for the driver to be able to watch their eyes as well as their ears But occasionally a nervous horse goes better with blinders and this is true also of some young intelligent horses who are so exceedingly curious about objects along the road that without blinders it is hard to make them go steadily and swiftly In short whether to use blinders or not is mainly a matter for experiment in each case with the presumption in favor of an open bridle Lazy horses people made lazy by taking …

I should like to add something about the feeding and watering of roadsters and the care of them while they are upon the road but such matters lie outside of our present subject which is driving pure and simple A strong man it has been said should always have an excuse for driving instead of riding and that is true but the excuse can easily be found Besides there is excitement enough in driving certain horses to make the blood even of a strong man tingle I remember one winter afternoon standing in front of a small tavern in Maine when a fur clad farmer drove up in a light sleigh His horse was such a roadster as one sees in New England now and then but not often there and very seldom indeed anywhere else in the world It was a medium sized bay mare with clean black legs smooth and hard as iron She swept up the road with head and tail aloft and ears pricked forward lifting her feet high and yet moving with a long elastic stride which indicated speed as well as style Her owner got out of the sleigh and cast a look behind at the antagonist with whom he had just been racing and who was now showing his defeated head above the crest of the hill Ah said he with that slow humorous drawl which distinguishes the down Easter a fellow can live two or three years driving such a horse as this for twenty minutes