Help! My horse just started cribbing. Make her stop!

[Mtn trails]

She's always been a bit of a wood chewer but yesterday for the first time I saw her sucking air. I think this is a new thing but can I stop it before it becomes habit? I painted the surfaces with chili paste (I tried other stuff and this is the only one that works) so maybe it will do the trick but how does one stop it once it's started? She's not stuck in a stall, has a large paddock, can socialize with other horses so what's the deal? Help!!!

[BornToRide]

You better check for ulcers because cribbers often have ulcers.

[equinelaw]

Do a search on old threads. This comes up every month.

[pines4equines]

BTR said: "You better check for ulcers because cribbers often have ulcers."

Yes, but I do know my older horse has ulcers but when he is having an episode, he'll stop cribbing as I think it exacerbates the ulcer. Because he has this need to do something habitual, he'll weave instead.

Years with these two cribbers, I really think it is a "high" thing and not a result of pain. I know everyone will say that's been debunked but I have two cribbers (they cribbed when I got them) and again, I know it's the seratonin/getting a fix thing.

It's like your horse is now hooked on heroin. How do you get him off heroin? Well um, er...besides signing up for an episode of Intervention, you have to do the cribbing strap. I use the french style as that stops them but it's not as severe as some of the others. If your horse does not colic from the cribbing, then maybe just let him crib and wear ear plugs until you're used to the sound. Others on this board will use a strand of electric wire as well on top of the fence line.

Otherwise, welcome to the world of owning a cribber...

Please music from a cheap soap opera or cheesey horror flick, duh, duh, duhhhhhhhh......Where other horse people come at you with fingers crossed in the sign of the cross and a string of garlic around their necks......

[equinelaw]

Most horses often have ulcers. Most horses do not crib.

It has not been "de-bunked" at all. That is why they do it. Why they find out that works for the or why it works for the is unknown, but it sure isn't ulcers. There is no proof of that at all.

[BornToRide]

And not all horses react to the pain the same way. They are all individuals.

[saultgirl]

She's always been a bit of a wood chewer but yesterday for the first time I saw her sucking air. I think this is a new thing but can I stop it before it becomes habit? I painted the surfaces with chili paste (I tried other stuff and this is the only one that works) so maybe it will do the trick but how does one stop it once it's started? She's not stuck in a stall, has a large paddock, can socialize with other horses so what's the deal? Help!!!

How old is she and how long have you had her?

My previous horse, who I purchased as a two year old, looked like he was going to start cribbing when I got him home. He was pretty stressed (it was two days of trailering, then a new barn and limited individual turnout at first). I really thought he was going to start being a cribber. He wasn't a wood chewer but he would bite and pull a little bit; maybe once or twice was an actual "crib" sucking air and everying. I made a huge point of keeping him really, really busy when he wasn't turned out (lots of letting him run in the arena, some lunging, handwalking, handgrazing, grooming, etc.etc.) and I never saw it again after the first 3 weeks (I had him for 4 years).

I believe this was a turning point for him and I was lucky the habit didn't stick.

[Elisha]

Auburn University did research on the saliva production of cribbers (http://www.ag.auburn.edu/ansc/ResPrograms/saliva.html). Their conclusion is "...because cribbing does increase saliva production, gastrointestinal irritation could be a motivating cause for cribbing."

I'm lucky that my gelding is a casual cribber and doesn't destroy things.

[Mtn trails]

I've had her for over a year and she is 6 years old. She's always been a bit of a hot head (chestnut mare) and gets bored easily. I wouldn't be surprised if she does have ulcers. I keep her at home and we don't have an arena or anyplace to let her run around or regular work. If I want to ride, I have to trailer out and that is stressful enough for her. Her appetite is sporadic, sometimes she cleans up everything, others she leaves enough that only have to prepare 1/2 her dinner.

[BornToRide]

Her appetite is sporadic, sometimes she cleans up everything, others she leaves enough that only have to prepare 1/2 her dinner.That's usually a major warning flag for ulcers.....

I would offer her hay all day. If that's not a possibility, get a slow feeder of some sort, that will slow her eating down and keep her busier longer:

http://paddockparadise.wetpaint.com/page/slow+feeders?t=anon

Do not feed grain before she's had some hay. Better yet, perhaps find alternative feed sources , such as alfalfa, BP as needed combined with a non-grained or soy based vitamin supplement

[equinelaw]

Auburn University did research on the saliva production of cribbers (http://www.ag.auburn.edu/ansc/ResPrograms/saliva.html). Their conclusion is "...because cribbing does increase saliva production, gastrointestinal irritation could be a motivating cause for cribbing."

I'm lucky that my gelding is a casual cribber and doesn't destroy things.

No relationship at all. An unusually brilliant and immensely talented, yet humble Grad student thought there might be a relationship, but if you read the rest if the studies you will it did not pan out. I was wrong. I got over it. But now I can't stop it.

See my blog? See my name? See my name on the Auburn papers? I am an absolute expert at my own thoughts:)

[pines4equines]

Equinelaw said: "I am an absolute expert at my own thoughts."

Aren't we all?

[equinelaw]

Equinelaw said: "I am an absolute expert at my own thoughts."

Aren't we all?

Its so fun to have people quote me to myself as an authority yet ignore me at the same time:)

I have been pissy about it because this weekend we have 3 cribbing threads running and the same thing in all three. We are bad mommies, we are clearly too dim to try ulcer treatments ourselves and if we just listened to common sense our horses would majikcally stop cribbing!

[BornToRide]

Their conclusion is "...because cribbing does increase saliva production, gastrointestinal irritation could be a motivating cause for cribbing."

I have read about research that suggests that the salive buffers the acidity in the stomach as it is high in bicarbonate:

The acid is buffered by the saliva which has a very high bicarbonate and mucus content. Horses produce up to 12 litres of saliva per day which lubricates the food, helping prevent 'choke' and buffering the stomach acid.


For 50 million years the horse has evolved as a continuous grazer. Wild horses spend 16 hours a day grazing, travelling over 20km searching for food and browsing. The stomach has adapted to a constant intake of grass by constantly secreting acid.
Link (http://www.mitavite.com.au/mitavite06/PDF/Nutritional%20Information%20PDF/Vet%20notes/Stomach%20ulcers%20in%20horses.pdf)

[equinelaw]

BTR. . . did you miss the part about the research being WRONG? And in the link on ulcers, did you look at the first sentence? 80-90% of race horses have ulcers.

Do you see them all crib??? Is math that hard?

Just stop it. You want to go do research on cribbing sign up for grad school and do some experiments. Test your theories. Stop using my research to back up your nonsense.

[Mtn trails]

She usually has hay in front of her all day as she will eat for a while when first fed, then pick at it all day until fed again in the evening. She doesn't get any real grain - just a little Safe Choice combined with beet pulp, rice bran, BOSS, and Cool Calories(r) and is fed about 1/2 hour to an hour after hay is given. I have a hard time keeping weight on her, that's why all the fat supplements. I misspoke in my last post. We do have pasture and she does run around a bit out there, in fact she's out there right now terroizing the neighbor's horses with her femanine wiles :D. But it being still winter, pasture time is severely limited because we want to have grass out there this summer and not dirt.

[goeslikestink]

put a few piles of hay or get a round bale so she eat as much as she likes if she got a weight problem cheek her teeth this can also effect cribbing and check shes not out with another as they do copy others if she just started doing it knock out the obvious first give plenty of as ab lib - rather than a few sections good quality hay will keep weight on, plus if she hungry then she will look for an alturnative

[merrygoround]

Its so fun to have people quote me to myself as an authority yet ignore me at the same time:)

I have been pissy about it because this weekend we have 3 cribbing threads running and the same thing in all three. We are bad mommies, we are clearly too dim to try ulcer treatments ourselves and if we just listened to common sense our horses would majikcally stop cribbing!

I get your point. :yes:

So some others had low scores on reading comprehension!!!! :D

And I agree, there does seem to be a genetic component there, as there is in human medicine.

Is your flame suit big enough for two? :lol:

[Bluey]

You can ask anyone on the track, that has seen brothers and sisters from the same parents come thru over the years and, under the same management all other horses from other lines are under, they are the only ones that start cribbing.
I would say that points to some inherited tendency.

Could the OP find if any parents or siblings also were cribbers?
What to do?
Sometimes, changing management helps, like turn out with a large herd in large pastures, where your horse may be too busy interacting with the other horses to crib, other than when you put it back inside.

I know a nice horse that won't crib outside with the herd, but if you put him in a stall or tie him up to saddle him, he will find a place to crib a little bit.

The problem with horses that have such OCD habits is that, when you have to change management, like if they are injured and are on stall rest, they are much harder to keep still and resting and can do more injury to themselves, or keep from getting well.:(

[BornToRide]

BTR. . . did you miss the part about the research being WRONG? And in the link on ulcers, did you look at the first sentence? 80-90% of race horses have ulcers.

Do you see them all crib??? Is math that hard?

Just stop it. You want to go do research on cribbing sign up for grad school and do some experiments. Test your theories. Stop using my research to back up your nonsense.

equinelaw, just because not all horse with ulcers crib does not disassociate the two. It depends on the individual, how they are affected, how they are managed and how they experience the pain.

So yes, in a sense there probably somewhere a genetic factor that determines how the horses reacts to ulcers, but there's also other factors.

Therefore, if a horse cribs, I would definitely check for ulcers too along with managment issues and not automatically dismiss it on the reasoning you presented.

[equinelaw]

And you not not dismiss it when told on thread after thread that the horses scoped clean. In fact nothing will dismiss your unfounded ideas. Selective reading?

Do you think none of us have treated our horses for ulcers and they still cribbed? With so many horses suffering from ulcers, you'd think some of us would have been treating them and seen if the horses stopped cribbing. Or are we too stupid to put 2+2 together?

And yes, if A is the cause of B, then A and B would go together. But cribbers that scope clean do not figure into your theory at all any more then ulcer horses that do not crib.

Ever sat around and just watched horses crib for a few months? They do not crib when they are colicky or in pain. They stop cribbing then. So why would an individuals reaction to pain cause them to crib?

You have presented no basis for your theory expect for my theory that was wrong. Perhaps you should use your superior reasoning and management skills to come up with your own theory and see if you are right?

Do a lit review and then come back with an original idea that has not been disproved. We all want a cure for cribbing. Go for it!:) You lit review could start with things we already know like hay makes gastric ph go down and grain makes it go up. Or that there is no known cause for equine ulcers, just lots of untested theories.

You assume too much and have not taken the time to educate yourself. Which is odd since you give advice on every thread.

[Mtn trails]

When turned out it's with another mare and she has the neighbor's horses across the fence to socialize with and we have 1/2 walls between the horses so she can visit with the ones on either side and hang her head into the aisle as well. She does have a pretty large pasture to run around in and a good sized paddock attached to her stall. She's not kept inside but can go in and out as she pleases. None of our other horses crib and I have not seen the neighbor's do it either.

What is involved in checking for ulcers?

[BornToRide]

You have 2 options - spend money and get her scoped, or, which is what I would do, try an inexpensive ulcer treatment to see if she improves. Then you can still decide if you want a full diagnosis or simply treat for it.

Keep in mind that colonic ulcers are difficult to diagnose and may be a factor also.

[rcloisonne]

You lit review could start with things we already know like hay makes gastric ph go down and grain makes it go up. Or that there is no known cause for equine ulcers, just lots of untested theories.

I know what you're trying to say but I think you're confused about what pH is. For example, grain tends to lower the pH by increasing stomach acid production for digestion (harder to digest) while hay and grass will make it go up (easier to digest).

A 1 Molar concentration of hydrochloric acid has a pH of less than 1.0; pure water a 7.0; caustic soda (NaOH) about 14.

[Texarkana]

I'm pretty sure equinelaw understands pH. ;)

To the OP--
You can have your mare scoped to be safe, or just go ahead and treat for ulcers. But ulcers or not, I'd be willing to bet large sums of money it won't cure her cribbing.

If you really want to stop her, albeit temporarily, electrify all your fences or put a cribbing muzzle on her.

And try not to let anyone make you feel like a guilty horse mom! :)

[equinelaw]

I know what you're trying to say but I think you're confused about what pH is. For example, grain tends to lower the pH by increasing stomach acid production for digestion (harder to digest) while hay and grass will make it go up (easier to digest).

A 1 Molar concentration of hydrochloric acid has a pH of less than 1.0; pure water a 7.0; caustic soda (NaOH) about 14.

Nope. I do not think I am confused. I think I am looking at a 10 year old copy of the proceedings of the equine nutrition and physiology conference right here and a decade old is not exactly cutting edge. The assumption is the opposite of what research has shown.

In addition, while working on my dissertation, I put ph monitors inside horses for 12 hours at a time and recorded the ph every 30 seconds as they went about their normal activities like eating hay eating grain, cribbing. . .but what does it matter? If their natural diet causes Ph to fall, maybe that's what it is supposed to do??? On what basis is low ph bad? Why would we want to stop what nature intended?

Having theories is good. It means people are applying themselves to solve problems. But making assumptions is bad. It means old wives tales are the basis of theories.

ph is an easy thing to understand. Small number. Up and down. I was sort of surprised when I heard that everything we always knew was wrong, but its been out there for more then 10 years. Its not irresponsible to just not know this, but is if you are pretending to be an expert and telling others what to do based on wrong assumptions that can be looked up.

Hay makes it go down and keep going down for a considerable period of time. Grain makes it go up because I guess all the protein is a buffer. Grain might cause problems in the duodenum. I think that is a strong possibility, but that is not gastric ulcers and rarely referred to as the colon. Since cribbing LOWERS stomach ph, maybe that is what causes the colics because the small intestine is empty but still getting sent low ph acid? I don't know, but that's a testable theory based on available research data.

See the harm? Now OP is being advised to get an expensive test because her horse is cribbing. And that advice is even silly. Why pay $600 to see if you need to pay another $600? Just give the meds for a few days and see if the cribbing stops. Or do the whole course of meds for the price of a test since so many horses have ulcers its just as likely as not her horses does too. It can't hurt anything but the pocket book.

BTR seems to know very little at all but tells everyone else what they need to do based on her made up half understood notions. OP is desperate. She will try anything. Enter BTR with an easy answer. Based on what she vaguely understands or remembers about my research which was wrong.

BTR seems intelligent enough to be able to learn, but she doesn't bother because she already knows it all. She does nothing to advance knowledge and will not even accept that the ideas she uses are admittedly wrong and were proved wrong year ago.

[equinelaw]

I'm pretty sure equinelaw understands pH. ;)

To the OP--
You can have your mare scoped to be safe, or just go ahead and treat for ulcers. But ulcers or not, I'd be willing to bet large sums of money it won't cure her cribbing.

If you really want to stop her, albeit temporarily, electrify all your fences or put a cribbing muzzle on her.

And try not to let anyone make you feel like a guilty horse mom! :)

You had a spontaneous cribber last year, right? Cured it yet? I mean just read COTH and make a few changes and give some drugs and it went away? Huh?:winkgrin:

Its not our fault.:mad:

[cloudyandcallie]

EquineLaw knows cribbers. She studied them, and more importantly, she owned one for many years. Good old Honey, who was a cribber, but a good boy.

[equinelaw]

EquineLaw knows cribbers. She studied them, and more importantly, she owned one for many years. Good old Honey, who was a cribber, but a good boy.

Thanks C&C, Where was I supposed to send the $20 for you saying something nice about me?:D

[cloudyandcallie]

Thanks C&C, Where was I supposed to send the $20 for you saying something nice about me?:D

It's $50 and just send it to sunkissed. Cloudy would just buy beer.:lol:
Well you do know cribbers. And Honey was a good boy all his life.

[Texarkana]

You had a spontaneous cribber last year, right? Cured it yet? I mean just read COTH and make a few changes and give some drugs and it went away? Huh?:winkgrin:

Its not our fault.:mad:

Yup. All the scoping and occult fecal blood tests (which showed NO signs of ulcers) and the ranitidine and omeprazole (just to be safe, ya know?) cured her lickity split. Now excuse me while I go adjust my mare's cribbing strap... :lol:

To the OP again--
I won't discourage anyone from checking/treating for ulcers. But I've yet to meet anyone who "cured" a horse from cribbing that way, my own horse included.

[equinelaw]

Heck, if it did work I'd be selling ulcergaurd in a new package and be rich!!!:):)

[easyrider]

My experience with the horse I had that cribbed was that he stopped cribbing when treated for ulcers. First, ranitidine worked. Then gastrogard/ulcergard worked. Over a period of four years, I treated him three times with the full round of gastrogard/ulcergard. He would stop cribbing for six to nine months after treatment. After a while, if I saw him crib or windsuck, I'd give him a tube for a few days, and that would avert the full-blown cribbing mania. Subsequent bouts of cribbing were also reduced in severity after I put him on a diet of McCauley's Alam, with rice bran oil, and I knew he had free-choice hay.

I can't claim to understand the science, if there is any, behind this phenomenon. However, it worked for my horse and I don't believe it was simply syncronicity.

[equinelaw]

I don't think I doubt your story, but if you wash rinse and repeat its not a cure:) And a few tubes would not cure an ulcer.

My horse did stop cribbing as much when he was on ulcer guard. But he also stopped cribbing when he was colicky, so I was not sure if it was a good thing or a bad thing until he was done and went right back to cribbing.

In your story, lasting 9 months and then getting ulcers again is not inconsistent with him just getting a new ulcer, but where its falls apart as a scientific explanation is when it works with far too few tubes to heal an actual ulcer.

Something is going on, but its not healing an ulcer. And he still cribs, just less?

I can do lots of things to reduce number or bites or bouts. They are related to diet and convenience of something to crib on and the horse's personal motivation to crib. But its not presence or absence of ulcers.

I certainly do not think its a stupid idea or a crazy one. I would not have done research on it at all if I did not think it was a good idea at one point. Its got something to do with ph somewhere. Its just not the stomach and its not gastric ulcers and while you can work on reducing the behavior, it just pops up under every management condition and then managing it is up to the owners preference and the horse's desire to crib.

I am not the only one who was hot on the trail for a cause and effect relationship. That research was done here and in the UK at the same time. There is still nothing that panned out and we have nothing to sell that is a sure cure for cribbing.


There are a lot of strange things that happen inside the body of a cribber. I think those things cause the cribbing, but how they got there and what turned them on is not known.

Some horses only do it now and then and some just after meals and some just when the grass is up or down or whatever. I "cured" my horse of cribbing almost as many times as I have quit smoking:) I remember soon after I bought him smugly returning the cribbing strap to the sells because he was "cured". Took me a few years to realize he was cured every time he moved.

I just let mine crib. He was not for sale and there was no real way to stop him without driving myself crazy, so since he enjoyed it, I let him have at it. I knew if he was cribbing he wasn't colicing and it became reassuring to see him do it.

I know I would never breed a cribber. Thats all I know for sure.

[pines4equines]

equinelaw said: "Heck, if it did work I'd be selling ulcergaurd in a new package and be rich!!!"

Now, that's a concept!

My horse cribs less when his window to the outdoors is open. He can hang his head out and watch the world. He cribs less. It's like he's watching TV...OH, oh! A TV!!! I wonder if that would solve the problem! A TV with a VCR so he can rewatch his favorite videos??? Shoot, I'll try anything...:winkgrin:

[CC]

Easyrider,
Just curious.....did your horse show any other signs of ulcers?

The 4 cribbers we have had in our barn just never showed any signs of ulcers. Now the one TB gelding cribber we adopted was very underweight but he gained steadily the first year we had him so we never even thought about ulcers.

The interesting thing is that 3 of the 4 had some sort of chronic discomfort going on. And all started cribbing between 1-2 years of age. One has EPSM that was not diagnosed until he was in his teens; the other had a congenital rent (small, smooth hole in the mesentary lining of small intestine) that was discovered during colic surgery; the other had something going on as she was a horrific bucker under saddle and it was clearly discomfort related. She later died after a painful colic and vet thought she had a diaphramatic hernia but no necropsy was done. So my theory has always been that besides having a predisposition toward cribbing, the environmental effect of having chronic discomfort leads to the cribbing.

[equinelaw]

equinelaw said: "Heck, if it did work I'd be selling ulcergaurd in a new package and be rich!!!"

Now, that's a concept!

My horse cribs less when his window to the outdoors is open. He can hang his head out and watch the world. He cribs less. It's like he's watching TV...OH, oh! A TV!!! I wonder if that would solve the problem! A TV with a VCR so he can rewatch his favorite videos??? Shoot, I'll try anything...:winkgrin:

My horse used to hang outside y window and watch TV. He did not crib. I would also bring a VCR fr overnight colic pajama parties. No cribbing then either. Maybe. . . . . .

[rcloisonne]

Nope. I do not think I am confused. I think I am looking at a 10 year old copy of the proceedings of the equine nutrition and physiology conference right here and a decade old is not exactly cutting edge. The assumption is the opposite of what research has shown.
I'm not sure what you mean? What research?

If their natural diet causes Ph to fall, maybe that's what it is supposed to do???
Grain is not really a natural part of the equine diet. Horses fed high grain rations on a regular basis tend to develop ulcers more than horses on forage only diets. Plenty of well conducted studies prove this.

On what basis is low ph bad? Why would we want to stop what nature intended?
Again, grain as a regular part of the diet is not how Equus caballus evolved. The lower the pH, the more acid is present. The more acid, the more ulcers. If one followed your logic, feeding more grain would cure ulcers rather than contribute to developing them.

Having theories is good. It means people are applying themselves to solve problems. But making assumptions is bad. It means old wives tales are the basis of theories.
Reducing acid to heal ulcers is not an old wives tale. You do know Gastrogard and the like reduce acid production (raise pH) and thus heal ulcers?

ph is an easy thing to understand. Small number. Up and down. I was sort of surprised when I heard that everything we always knew was wrong, but its been out there for more then 10 years. Its not irresponsible to just not know this, but is if you are pretending to be an expert and telling others what to do based on wrong assumptions that can be looked up.
Where can one look this up? I'm no expert on equine physiology but I do know my pH's and I do know excessive acid contributes to ulcer formation.

Hay makes it go down and keep going down for a considerable period of time. Grain makes it go up because I guess all the protein is a buffer.
Is that a fact? Please explain exactly how amino acids (protein) raise the pH. And just how did you determine grains have a lot of protein? Oats, for example, average about 12% protein, far lower than legume hay at 21% and contain far less pH raising minerals such as calcium and magnesium.

Grain might cause problems in the duodenum. I think that is a strong possibility, but that is not gastric ulcers and rarely referred to as the colon.
Huh?

Since cribbing LOWERS stomach ph, maybe that is what causes the colics because the small intestine is empty but still getting sent low ph acid? I don't know, but that's a testable theory based on available research data.
I don't know either. Never had a cribber and I'd like to say I never will. But I never say never. :D

See the harm?
No.

Now OP is being advised to get an expensive test because her horse is cribbing. And that advice is even silly. Why pay $600 to see if you need to pay another $600?
You lost me again. Do you mean you’re advising the OP not to get her horse scoped because it's a waste of time and money? Ulcers are a BAD thing, cribber or not.

Just give the meds for a few days and see if the cribbing stops. Or do the whole course of meds for the price of a test since so many horses have ulcers its just as likely as not her horses does too. It can't hurt anything but the pocket book.
Exactly. But before I'd shell out more than $1,000 for Gastogard, I'd want to know if my horse actually needed it. My vet charges $150 for a scope of the stomach, including the farm call (at least he did in 2006, the last time I had one done). Money well spent, IMO.

BTR seems to know very little at all but tells everyone else what they need to do based on her made up half understood notions.
You won't get any arguments from me regarding BTR. :winkgrin:

[equinelaw]

Nobody knows what causes gastric ulcers. That is all we know.

Grain is probably a natural part of a horses' diet as it is the seed head to grass. No seeds, no grass. Horses were domesticated in the same area as grains were. I think they ate grains before we got there, just not every day.

So we do not know what causes ulcers and we do not know if grain is natural or not. Thinking it is true is not knowing it is true. Both the acid causing the ulcers and the grain being un-natural are just stories.

ONLY UG heals ulcers. The other acid reducers or buffers do not. So there must be more to the story.

I do not know why grain raises the gastric PH. I just know it does. And there are lots of studies that show what hay does and for how long. Those studies are published, among other places in the journal mentioned. The ones I read used Broome grass hay. I don't even know what that is, but thats the hay used at that university research center.

Along with the studies on what feeds to once they leave the stomach. Lots of studies showing wood chewing increases as small intestine ph decreases. But none on the large intestine--or colon--which BTR suggested is the next place to look. Even though there was a thread on the same day making large colon ulcers sound pretty serious and not something you would not notice at all.

Here a scope costs about $600 and the GG cost about $650, so for me its silly to pay for a scope to save $650. It would be different if it was $150, yes. However, one thing we know causes gastric ulcers is withholding feed for more then 12 hours. That much we do know. So if the Vet tells e the stomach must be 100 empty and to withhold feed for 14 hours before a scope I have no idea if the ulcers were there to start with. So if a really suspect ulcers I might try a course of GG and look for behavior changes.

The original studies done on gastric ulcers used a feed through ph meter that gave back signals every 15 seconds all the way through. It was done on foals. Recent research on ulcers keeps coming up with stuff that is not expected like stalling does not matter, horses out 24 on grass with no grain get them, stress may not matter, grain may not matter--just because we can now see them does not mean we have a clue why they are there or what causes them and we only have 1 thing to do about it.

Its not the ph. Cribbers have much lower ph when allowed to crib then normal horses--like 2 points lower. But they still scope clean. Grain may start to ferment in the stomach and cause a different profile of volatile fatty acids--one of which may irritate the stomach lining--but there is inconstant data on that too.

I was arguing with BTR responses. You got in the middle:)

ETA: While 10 years ago is a long time to me and I would expect that information to have been passed around by now, I was stunned to just find a paper was published on research I did in 1998 a few months ago in a Vet Journal. It does imply that is is new and valid useful information. It seems that even though the same person also chaired the following research and knows what we hypothesized was incorrect, getting published is more important that being right. That is inexcusable, but I put it in my CV anyway:> No wonder old theories never die! Dead ones can be re-born years later.