SKA needs your help and input (old horses dying) READ LAST POST

[snkstacres]

I tried hard not to let word out until all test results were in so as not to start a mass panic unnecessarily but......................................

Since just before xmas, I have lost 4 of my oldest dearest friends and am likely going to lose 3 more shortly. Sadly, when the first two passed away, it was attributed to cancer, older folks, one who was a recent acquisition so I didnt know him very well at all. Figured he had it when he came here. The other was Marsey, Birds personal rescue and we knew she had cancer in her eye but.......................that is not what she died from sadly. By xmas, none of my older folks were feeling too well, didnt clean up there feed, stopped being excited about dinner and started hanging back from herd instead of coming in. I had blood panels pulled and they all showed a bit of dehydration but nothing serious. Attributed to the silly weather changes. A week later, vet was up again, they were all losing weight drastically, drinking like fools and only eating hay. This time tests showed kidneys and liver were failing. Over night, literally, the horses lost a couple hundred pounds and the vet euthanized them. I had the vet run panels on three more that I was terribly concerned about. They looked good but........................I have had them for years, I know when something is not right. Blood panels showed exactly the same as the first, a bit of dehydration, nothing else. One week later, panels are entirely different again. Kidneys and liver are shutting down. These guys are going into renal failure, stage four cancer in a week. One of these horses is not old. He does not have cancer.

So, SS was out to take feed samples, Dept of AG did water and soil tests. Hay was all tested. Nothing shows amiss but................................I KNOW THESE GUYS ATE SOMETHING POISONOUS. Pastures were combed by an expert, nothing found. Bodies were exhumed from the first two horses to see exactly what showed in tissues. My vet has been here every night helping me medicate the remaing three horses effected. We are going a mass steroid route as well as Equiox pain killer at $14 a day per horse since we cant use either banamine of bute due to the effect on kidneys. If this does not work, I will lose my precious friends, one my very first ever GA rescue, Commander, my darlin paint friend who does the paso dance at dinner time, and Printz, the paint stallion hit by a truck on I-75 and left untreated for a year. The oldest residents of Sunkissed are nearing there end but long before there time I am afraid.

We have looked at this with a fine tooth comb. All the variable have been compared and discarded. We can only come up with one thing in common. Triple Crown Feeds. Well, now, we did use some Purina as we had all those coupons but........................... a few of these horses didnt eat it and so...........................unless of course, a volunteer fed it to them without my knowing. I followed some of the threads on feed here and there was a problem with TC around xmas which fits in with what happened here, horses off there feed. I am looking for answers here or help.

Does anyone who gets there TC from the Flowery Branch Plant have any feed left from xmas, Senior or Complete.? There will be an F on your feed label. Does anyone know anything that I dont know yet or know of horses who have mysteriously died that we can find similarities too? While SS paid for all the testing, the costs of treatment, exhuming and euthanazia and burial are left to us never mind the continuing attempts to treat my friends. The vet is coming here on his own time. We need your help and input here please.

All the horses who live on pasture and are capable of eating hay and grain are fine. It was just the oldest toothless kids who depended on there grain who are suffering with this. My heart is broken, just broken.

[Chardavej]

Oh my gosh Lori I am so sorry!!!! I will pray for your oldsters, that they will recover.

I don't have any info for you though...

[cloudyandcallie]

Bump for Lori. She's been going thru this with the vets helping her (costs $) for months. and she has pneumonia herself.

Anyone having the same problems? PM Lori if you have. I PM'ed TIER who has had similar problems????, and haven't heard back yet.

Anyone heard of any recent (last fall to now) feed recalls or horses getting sick/dying in groups? I called my feed company and asked at the feed stores. Everyone please check and help Lori both with information and donations.

Bad times for rescues.

[BelladonnaLily]

Please keep us posted. I feed Triple Crown to both my 2yo and my 27yo (everyone in between gets Reliance) and this worries me greatly. My 2yo is proving to be a picky eater at times and this does make me paranoid. Fortunately, my old gal is a great barometer of things wrong...she eats like a hog when all is well in her world...but will refuse to eat at all the minute something is amiss.

Thoughts and prayers going out to you and your old guys. This is absolutely horrifying news.

[imissvixen]

I don't feed TC but after the Chinese melamine incident with pet food I have no doubt that what you are thinking is a more than reasonable possibility. I don't have any ideas right at the moment but am thinking.

[imissvixen]

This came up pretty early in Google: http://www.who.int/csr/media/faq/QAmelamine/en/.

[bnthomsn]

So sorry to hear about the loss of your horses, l can't help you with any advice or information but l can tell you of a similar experience.

l bought a quarter horse mare, it will be 5 years ago this spring, she soon started showing signs of illness, dropping weight, drinking gallons of water and peeing all the time, she continued to get worse and worse, we finally discovered that her kidneys were failing, she was put on anitbiotics for weeks and weeks with no change, we were at the point of putting her down, when l contacted a homeopathic person, she never saw my horse, just listened to the symptoms, she ended up giving me capsules, that would line the kidneys, and give them a chance to heal, than l had to give her 3 diferent types of drops, within a week she was getting better, and she's still here 5 years later, her kidneys are not perfect, but they function well enough to keep her healthy and happy. The vets figured she would die within months.

Anyway, the part that is pertinent to your problem, l contacted her former owners to see if she had ever had any issues before, they were so glad to hear from me, they had lost my contact info so were unable to contact me, anyway, 3 of their other horses, including my mares yearling, all died of kidney failure during the same time Lacey was sick. It turned our it was something in the feed, Lacey was lucky she left when she did, it was very sad and they were heartsick over the whole thing, they were so relieved that Lacey survived and still keep in touch.

Anyway l wish you luck and l hope the ones that are still sick will recover, l wish l could tell you what the homeopathic had given me but she has since moved away and the bottles have no names on them. Might be worth it on your end to contact a homeopath and see if they can help, vets here said Lacey was done, but 5 years later she's still here.

[JSwan]

Lori -

That is horrible and I am so sorry.

I don't feed ss feeds but many people do around here. I have not heard of any cases of illness or unexplained deaths.

But I promise to ask around and I'll call my vets too. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Again - I'm so sorry for your troubles and I hope these horses recover. (and I hope you are feeling better too)

[MistyBlue]

Purina had a recall mid year 2008 for their feeds due to alfatoxin:

Purina recalls contaminated horse feed

Submitted by Horseplay on Fri, 2008-05-09 22:44. Check your feedroom. Purina has issued a voluntary recall on feed for the Eastern U.S., including feed made at its Harrisburg plant between Jan. 1 and March 10. No horses have been reported sickened by the feed, which may have aflatoxin contamination above acceptable levels.Aflatoxin has been implicated in causing colic, neurological disorders, paralysis, hypersensitivity, organ deterioration, reduced growth rate, poor feed efficiency, impaired fertility, and death in horses.

News Release: May 8, 2008 -- Land O'Lakes Purina Feed LLC has implemented a voluntary product retrieval of certain feeds manufactured between November 3, 2007, and February 8, 2008, at its Statesville, N.C., feed plant; between January 1, 2008, and February 8, 2008, at its Harrisburg, Pa., feed plant; and between January 1, 2008, and March 10, 2008, at its Guilderland, N.Y., plant.
This voluntary retrieval was initiated due to the possible presence of aflatoxin contamination above acceptable levels. To date, Purina has received no confirmed aflatoxin-related animal health complaints involving any of the retrieved products.
All dealers who purchased any of the retrieved products directly from Land O'Lakes Purina Feed LLC have been notified. These dealers are located in the following states: Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia and West Virginia.
Purina's investigation and product testing identified one ingredient of concern, which originated from a single supplier. Purina is no longer using this supplier. Other feed companies that purchased from this supplier are facing a similar situation.
For more information about specific products included in the retrieval, contact the Statesville, N.C., feed plant at 704-924-5100 or the Harrisburg, Pa., feed plant at 717-737-4581

Couldn't find anything on TC feeds though.

[Weatherford]

OMG!!!

Sounds like poisoning to me! What about your water - is there a factory or something that may have dumped toxins in a stream or could there be something buried nearby that finally leached into your groundwater? Are all the people and other animals around OK?

Sometimes, if the mills aren't very careful about what they are milling when and cleaning their machinery, ingredients from cow or other animal feed that is toxic to horses can get mixed with horse feed, and that could be a cause - have you had your feed tested? No chance of nightshade (and there are a number of varieties that are all poisonous) or blister beetles or something in the hay? And, of course, there is alway the melamine problem... this too could be from something else milled in the same bins.

Have you contacted Triple Crown directly? Or had your vet contact them - that might be more effective! Have you contacted local papers and asked if anyone else has the problem? Actually, the vet would probably know those things.

I know this would break my heart - losing one is tough enough, but losing a bunch and not understanding why? That would do me in.

Meanwhile, you might consider buying (organic) oats, corn (and/or barley) and bran and cooking up your own feed. Easy to do - you can PT me, if you'd like.

I am so sorry to hear about this - I wish I could help you.

:cry:

My horse had been sick before I bought him (diagnosed with chronic liver disease, according to his vets at the time, who were not my vets, but from whom I was later able to get the records). I have a sneaking suspicion after all these years that he had had the problem before his previous owner bought him - probably started from something on the track. Unfortunately, since it was mis-diagnosed and ignored over the years, it wasn't handled as it should have been with plain hay and low protein feed. That horse had a heart of gold that was bigger than any other horse I've ever known. RIP.

[Weatherford]

By the way, as was discovered with the dog food, many different feeds may be processed in the same plants. If Purina has the problems, then TC may also. You need to contact them (and threaten, if necessary).

If I were in the US now, I would be mixing my own feed as I do here.

[bird4416]

Weren't there some mystery deaths at a farm in NC recently? Anyone else remember this or have any info?

[Equibrit]

I have currently Triple Crown Complete - label reads;

1919 Lot#:F9035: Bag#:0033 (and 9 others)

Don't know when it was made - I bought it 2 weeks ago. I haven't had any problems with horses 2 - 24 years old.

[equinelaw]

Weren't there some mystery deaths at a farm in NC recently? Anyone else remember this or have any info?

The symptoms were different. But the response by the local Vets was a model in how to handle a cluster of unexplained deaths. There was a thread on COTH about the NC horses including links to the Vets. They might be able to help with the logistics of getting a system in place to try and see how many horses have been effected and how to try and solve the problem.

[jazzrider]

Oh Lori, this is so sad. I'm so, so sorry that you're going through this -- you do so much for your guys. I'll keep all of you in my prayers and send jingles that they'll pull through and you can get to the bottom of it.

I feed TC (Maturity, Lite and Performance) to my guys, and have heard nothing about issues in our area (NVA). But this is concerning. Please keep us posted on what you find.

Anyone know anyone from SS that can chime in here?

[War Admiral]

You've probably already heard this through the grapevine, Lori, but no, I don't have any of Avery's old feed from that time frame left. I gave it away. Avery definitely WAS one of the horses who did not want to eat it, and I was tracking those threads too - but other horses did eat from those same bags here after he passed away and are asymptomatic.

I can't help thinking melamine myself... If Printz weren't involved, I would also be wondering whether they were nibbling bark off of trees or something like that, but I know he's on restricted T/O so that wouldn't apply...

Jingling for you and the kids.

[monstrpony]

Last fall (August) I had some feed from the LOL-Purina Gainesville, GA plant (I *think* it was in plain alf pellets, but might have been Horseman's Edge). It had some strange pieces in it that looked like cattle feed, so I was worried about rumensin (sp?). My local supplier called the plant, and the plant called me within hours. He said that they do NOT process any cattle feed in the same plant that processes horse feed; the risk is just too great of a mistake happening. I would HOPE that the same is true for SS feeds.

Are there any other farms near you having similar issues? If it were feed, it would almost have to be more widespread than just your animals.

I wonder if our worst nightmare is happening, that some of the locals whose animals have ended up with you taking revenge. How difficult would it be for someone to be slipping cattle feed to your horses in their pastures? (that could also be an ignorant good samaritan, for that matter).

[monstrpony]

The symptoms were different. But the response by the local Vets was a model in how to handle a cluster of unexplained deaths. There was a thread on COTH about the NC horses including links to the Vets. They might be able to help with the logistics of getting a system in place to try and see how many horses have been effected and how to try and solve the problem.

They were Appalachian Equine (appalachianequine.com) if you want to contact them.

[vineyridge]

The Centers for Disease Control are in GA, and they do have a veterinary branch.

Try to get them in on this. They should be interested in cluster illnesses and deaths. And they certainly have expertise in solving medical mysteries.

[Mav226]

Have you contacted the FDA? When one of my dogs was poisoned by a flea control product they were very, very quick to get back to me.

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/animalfeed.htm

[abbydp]

Lori I am so sorry for your loss and that you are going through this. I feed SS but it is Legend's Performance and Reliance. My aunt's old guy eats TC Senior, though. About a month or so ago he stopped eating his grain and didn't feel bad, but NQR. He had bloodowork pulled and his teeth done. Nothing abnormal. I will check with her again, but as far as I know he is back to normal. I will go back and read your OP, but how long after the initial normal bloodowork did they physically go downhill?

I will second the advice of contacting the NC vet, and anyone your vet is willing to contact. Someone on the breeding forum had a mare pull through because our vet would not rest on what she knew. She contacted tons of other vets, hospitals, etc and ended up changing her treatment protocall successfully. In a situation like this, you need all the help and all the brains you can get.

I will be thinking about you. Please let me know if there is anything you can do. I will ask my vets here if they have any ideas or experience with this. I know we did treat one horse with an unexplained liver failure. I don't know the results of the research on what may have caused it. I will ask.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Lori, I am so relieved you posted. I have been sitting on my hands and biting my tongue and have felt so helpless!

Thank you, everyone, for drawing in on your contacts so that we can see the pattern and possibly get more concrete evidence.

I only wish Sunkissed Acres had the $$ to feed organics. I am also devastated at the loss of so many of the sweetest guys you would ever want to meet.

[Thomas_1]

I've friends that have recently lost horses to grass sickness ..... I don't think you have that in the USA though. That's a horrible disease that manifests itself quickly and sporadically and kills healthy horses in a matter of days.

I've presumed you've tested for the likes of botulism ??

I sincerely hope that you find out what's happening quickly.

In the meantime thoughts and wishes are with you at this difficult and worrying time.

[FatPalomino]

In the meantime can you feed beet pulp and oats? Promise, it's good (and cheaper then TC). If they are picky we mix in some alfalfa pellets with the beet pulp and they like it a whole lot more.

Any signs of infections (fever)? I don't know much about liver failure in equines, but I know kidney failure can be cause by certain infections.

Aside from the liver/kidney issue, I'd be worrying about Salmonella. Again, your vet would be a wise one to ask if that's applicable in your case.

In the meantime, safe yourself a lot of money and use Previcoxx (labeled for dogs) instead of the horse version. Same exact drug, for pennies a day rather than $14/day! It comes in a chewable tiny tablet. Your vet should be able to help you order some. If you need some right away shoot me a PM. Hubby can mail what we have in the barn and pick up some at our vet supply store... they sell it to me know for the same price as the vets. They can not ship out of state so we will have to get it and ship it, so it will take a few days. If you have a vet supply store near you, you may be able to get it quicker/cheaper.

(((hugs)))

[Noctis]

Lori if you need me to bring down some feed, anything you need, just let me know ok? Or some home made soup for you. Just let us know!

[Jaegermonster]

OMG Lori I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how difficult this has been for you.
Do you need to foster anyone out, be it short or long term? I can come get a couple of them

[Equilibrium]

Lori,

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I really hope they find out what is causing your problems. How absolutely devastating. Many jingles hoping you get to the bottom of this.

Terri

[cloudyandcallie]

I think that the site www.SpecialHorses.org is still up and available to donate to Lori (and to TIER which is having deaths and to other rescues in coth's program) to help with meds and unfortunately, euth-ing and burial. :(

[WaningMoon]

I am so very sorry to hear this. It has to be just horrible to feel so helpless and watch them go downhill. Lets hope it gets figured out real soon now. And please take care of yourself, this has to be dragging you down too.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Yes, direct contact information is available on our site, or you can go to their websites:

TIER www.tierrescue.org (http://www.tierrescue.org)

Sunkissed Acres http://sunkissedacres.com/

[SpecialEffects]

Lori,
I can't even imagine going through what you have. I am so sorry for your losses and for the animals that are still sick. When I spoke to you about the donkeys, you were so gracious and didn't let on about the magnitude of what you were dealing with.

I mentioned this thread to my sister and she told me to do a search on a stallion that someone in the Breeding Forum just lost and the other of her horses that were very ill on her farm. She sounded much like you - water was tested, hay, pastures..... The last post (of hers) in the discussion was that it was narrowed down to feed, possible contamination of cow feed or too much of an additive in that batch. I didn't find any mention of what feed (or feed company) it came from.

Here is the thread so you can see if there are any comparisions and to contact Jackie if need be. I know she is in OK but who knows where feeds are processed or if there could be any connection?

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=188029&highlight=Jagged+Illusion

Take care

Laurie

[Whyevernot55]

As monstrpony mentioned, it sounds similar to a case of Rumacin poisoning I saw a few years ago - Rumacin is a supplement added to steer feed that's highly toxic to horses. An Amish family lost 4 horses before we figured out what it was. All of the tainted feed had been consumed, so it was never found in the actual grain, but the assumption was that the feed elevator mixed cattle feed prior to mixing their horse feed. The diagnosis was made after doing a necropsy on the 4th horse - rumacin poisoning presents in white striations in the muscle of the heart and the hindquarters. Diagnosis was confirmed with testing tissue samples.
The symptoms sound similar, but those cases happened VERY quickly. All 4 horses died within two weeks. Perhaps it is some other type of toxicity in the feed? It may be worth it to call the feed companies, if you haven't already.
Best of luck, and jingling as hard as I can that this gets resolved quickly!

[Ghazzu]

FWIW--monensin cause cardiac myonecrosis in horses, not renal failure.

Sure hope you find an answer soon, though.

Any possibility of exposure to ethylene glycol?
(antifreeze)?

[cloudyandcallie]

Ghazzu, wouldn't antifreeze show up as crystals in the liver?

As you know, there's no CSI full screening for all drugs/poisons like on TV. The scientists have to have an idea what to screen for, unfortunately the cost in money and time doesn't allow for screenings like on TV.

And no grain samples to have analyzed for the cow supps.

Right now Lori needs help and support, both in money and in helping to find out what is wrong with the horses so the poisoning can be reversed if possible. And Lori has pneumonia, so anyone with chicken soup in the vicinity, please head on over.

[jennywho]

Wow, I am so very sorry for your losses.

Not much help, but if you routinely buy from the same feed store you might ask them who else in your area buys large quantities of the TC feeds. Contact them and see if they are having any problems.

Hugs, what a horrible thing to have to go through

[Buffyblue]

Wow, this is just awful! I'm so sorry for you and the poor "kids!" I hope they find out what it is and I hope the remaining patients pull through OK!

[Ghazzu]

Ghazzu, wouldn't antifreeze show up as crystals in the liver?


Not that I'm aware of.
Calcium oxalate crystals in renal tissue, though.



And no grain samples to have analyzed for the cow supps.

But the signs aren't consistent with ionophore toxicity.

[equineartworks]

Lori I wish I weren't so far away and my dad wasn't having his surgery this week. I wish so much that I could come down and help you :(

I echo the thoughts everyone has shared as far as contacts. I am going to ask a few friends who get TC up north if they can check their bags.

I hope you know how much those horses love you for all that you do. And I know it doesn't ever seem like enough...but know in your heart that you give them so much love, compassion and caring...enough for lifetimes.

Dumplin' and Bixby send you wet smooshy kisses and we send you much love and ((((HUGS))))

[cloudyandcallie]

Colleen, go back to bed, you are sick too.

Everyone is dropping like flies!:(

[Lori T]

Lori, I am so sorry to hear about your troubles. It certainly sounds like poisoning to me. I hope you get to the bottom of this quick.

[HorsesinHaiti]

Yipe! Praying for you, and glad you have people closer by to help you out.

[pintopiaffe]

Water?

We had a very sad case up here two or three years ago that initially looked like monensin (cattle feed additive) poisoning... and in the end ended up being selenium deficiency. THAT never made the media. It appeared as poisoning, and the vets at first thought it was monensin....

Have they checked selenium? You're not in an area I'd normally even suggest it... except for my experience with the case up here.

[sidepasser]

oh my Heavens, I am so sorry Lori about your kids and this awful ordeal.

This is such a mystery, I hope you can find out the why of it all.

I'll send a donation your way by paypal, every little bit helps in a situation like this. Let me know if you need help, you have my phone number.

sidepasser

[mustangtrailrider]

Lori,

I have been reading this all day and almost crying as I re- and re-read it. These dear sweet "kids" don't deserve this. I only wish we could take this away from them and make them better....with time, I know their bodies will heal. I will keep them and you in our thoughts and prayers. I fell in love with them when I was there...it was truly "sun"kissed this time...what beautiful cold weather we had during our visit. The donkey, Curly, is doing very well and adores his new people and mare. He is quite the personable guy. And you know who is settled and loff his new human....

Thoughts and prayers and jingles headed your way.

Love ya!!

[snkstacres]

Hello again everyone and thankyou for your responses. All soil has been tested, all hay, all water sources. The GDA is involved, UGA is involved, AAEP is involved, SS is involved, trust me, they are some worried. YOu see, all variables have been crossed out. Some horses dont go to pasture, some are on a different pasture, some have access to a pond, some dont. One lives all alone all the time. The kids began to get ill early Jan that was noticeable anyhow. And even now, if you didnt know them like I do, you might not notice anything amiss. Till I show you there pictures one month ago, or till I show you there red colored urine. These guys are all standing there throwing there heads up and down. They avoid urinating till they almost burst. They throw there feed angrily away. My heart is broken. The vet came once more tonight to help one of the old ladies, I think it is too late for her. Morning will be a long ways away and yet so near for I just dont know how she can possibly pull through anymore.

Every single avenue here has been gone down. that is why I am now going public as I told the feed companies I would. There is a thread around xmas time of horses not eating TC feeds and people taking it back. If all you have is one or two horses, you would return a bag but, when you go through 30 bags a week, you are inclined to think they filled up on pasture or the hay rounds. You sure dont haul all the feed back.

I have had ultrasounds done, MRI's blood panels, the works. Had the vet out on Friday and did all 30 horses or almost. I could not stand and so a volunteer came but she could not touch some of the more timid kids. As the vet says, we know what went wrong here but.......................the feed has been eaten. it wont be found here any longer but.............................there may be some in someone else's barn. I will need the publics help on this one because, none of the feed companies really want me to find anything now do they. But, with the med records I have, and all the records in general, they too know what happened. They know.

[EqTrainer]

Lori, please ask the Mods to give you permission to cross post this and change the title to reflect that you are looking for TC feed users.

Another idea is if you know what feed lots we are looking for, we can all check in the feed stores and ask friends who feed TC and try to locate some of those bags of feed.

I don't know what else to do. Will send you some $$ later this week, I wish I could do something else.. will forward this info to everyone I know who feeds TC. Someones got to have some around from that time.

[Artful]

I am so sorry that this is happening to you. FYI, we feed TC and have not had any problems here in central VA>

This sounds so similar (esp. the red urine) to what happened to our 4-H leaders horses after they ate wilted red (swamp) maple leaves. (a tree fell in their pasture--they didn't realize it was poisonous :no:)

But you seem to have a lot of experts working on this, so I'm guessing this has been ruled out. Sending prayers your way. hope you have answers soon.

[SpecialEffects]

I just posted on Horse Grooming Supplies website and linked to this thread. Maybe someone from there can help out.

[sidepasser]

Lori, I cross posted on the Ala/Ga. Horselovers board with a request that people contact you if they have the feed in question and also if they know of any unusual deaths or illness of horses in their area.

I so hope someone can provide you with the information you need to help your "kids" recover.

[nightsong]

So sorry!!! My money is on WATER pollution maybe water pollution in the PLANT. If this was the first batch of feeed to runthrough the plant after it was pressure washed after a different type of feed was produced. SO MUCH in our water these days...

I imagine some GOOD will come out of this -- awareness of feed poisoning OCCURRING, and the types of SYMPTOMS for the various poisons.

[snkstacres]

Truly a sad day for sure. Unfortunately, I had been going back and forth to Canada with the terminal illness of my brother and then a double funeral. It could be that volunteers may have fed the horses different feed and I am narrowing down the wrong feed but they swear and so............................although yesterday, I found one of the old folks eating Legends 12 instead of TC Complete. ??????????????? Every horse is labeled and feed cans are labeled and it still happens.

I have a couple frozen mice, birds and a rabbit as well. No bodily damage to these creatures, just dead and they always eat from the bowls with the horses or leftovers.
I am sending them in for an independant study.

Anyhow, time to head to the feed store and the barn. Horses need to be medicated. Thanks to all for your concern.

[Auventera Two]

Do you have any chickens on your farm? I know a local horse who contracted salmonella and struggled for her life for weeks before finally turning around for the good, but it was apparently a milder case.

But I thought you were feeding Purina? When I posted that I have free Purina feed coupons, who wants them - I got at least 10 PMs saying that Lori wants them because she feeds Purina. That was right before Christmas. So I guess I'm confused. :confused: Is the TC switch new? Is it possible that the formulations were just so different they couldn't handle the change? I don't know, this is weird. It does sound feed related though since you've ruled out everything else. But the feed tests come back clean???? Wow. How terrifying.

I also wondered about botulism?

Ditto the selenium deficiency. I had one horse with a deficiency and it was ugly. I thought she was getting enough, as she was on a feed containing selenium, and also a supplement. But she got symptomatic. She also was extremely angry. She would throw her feed bucket, kick out at anyone near her. She was even grabbing the top wire of the electric fence and twanging it, then having a fit when it shocked her. She'd buck and kick out and lash with her teeth, then go after the fence again. She lost interst in everything, quit drinking, and it happend SO fast - overnight. I called the vet and he said - yep, seen it many times before. Definitely a selenium deficiency. Well, I had never heard of such a thing. After a couple days of giving her larger selenium doses, she was back to normal and has been fine since.

I am very sorry you're going through this. What a horrible experience. I do hope you can figure it out quickly. I can't imagine the pain this is putting you through. :(

[ChocoMare]

No, Lori doesn't have chickens at her place. No free-range ones either that might be from neighboring farms.

She uses both TC and Purina....but TC is her primary and Purina the back up.

[BeastieSlave]

I'm so sorry this is happening :( How frightening!
I feed TC and Legends, but don't have any feed left from more than a week ago... Hang in there and keep us posted.

[monstrpony]

I'm sure you've already covered this, but is there a possibility that the volunteers fed any unusual treats while they were caring for the horses? Apples or carrots with preservative or insecticide on them? Some people food that the older ones just couldn't handle? Did you use a different wormer? Any medications (I'm thinking NSAIDs that are hard on liver/kidneys)?

Just thinking out loud here ...

I beleive TC feeds do have Se, but, of course, not enough to make up for a serious deficiency. And the southeast is generally Se deficient.

God, I hate this!

[birdsong]

Sounds like it was the feed . During the melamine scare my friend lost 3 wonderful dogs. It didn't happen immediately. She had all tests done and watched while they wasted away. Sounds familiar.

[Susan P]

There was a big recall on Purina feeds, I think Equine Senior was one. http://www.purinamills.com/ViewHTMLContent.aspx?source=archive&docID=PUBS_PROD_ECMP0067300
Our local Purina dealer chose not to notify their customers. I believe horses did die. This link is to the Purina site.

But this Google search will offer more including articles.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=purina+horse+feed+recall&aq=f&oq=

You might have to act on this quickly. Hold on to all your old feed.



I tried hard not to let word out until all test results were in so as not to start a mass panic unnecessarily but......................................

Since just before xmas, I have lost 4 of my oldest dearest friends and am likely going to lose 3 more shortly. Sadly, when the first two passed away, it was attributed to cancer, older folks, one who was a recent acquisition so I didnt know him very well at all. Figured he had it when he came here. The other was Marsey, Birds personal rescue and we knew she had cancer in her eye but.......................that is not what she died from sadly. By xmas, none of my older folks were feeling too well, didnt clean up there feed, stopped being excited about dinner and started hanging back from herd instead of coming in. I had blood panels pulled and they all showed a bit of dehydration but nothing serious. Attributed to the silly weather changes. A week later, vet was up again, they were all losing weight drastically, drinking like fools and only eating hay. This time tests showed kidneys and liver were failing. Over night, literally, the horses lost a couple hundred pounds and the vet euthanized them. I had the vet run panels on three more that I was terribly concerned about. They looked good but........................I have had them for years, I know when something is not right. Blood panels showed exactly the same as the first, a bit of dehydration, nothing else. One week later, panels are entirely different again. Kidneys and liver are shutting down. These guys are going into renal failure, stage four cancer in a week. One of these horses is not old. He does not have cancer.

So, SS was out to take feed samples, Dept of AG did water and soil tests. Hay was all tested. Nothing shows amiss but................................I KNOW THESE GUYS ATE SOMETHING POISONOUS. Pastures were combed by an expert, nothing found. Bodies were exhumed from the first two horses to see exactly what showed in tissues. My vet has been here every night helping me medicate the remaing three horses effected. We are going a mass steroid route as well as Equiox pain killer at $14 a day per horse since we cant use either banamine of bute due to the effect on kidneys. If this does not work, I will lose my precious friends, one my very first ever GA rescue, Commander, my darlin paint friend who does the paso dance at dinner time, and Printz, the paint stallion hit by a truck on I-75 and left untreated for a year. The oldest residents of Sunkissed are nearing there end but long before there time I am afraid.

We have looked at this with a fine tooth comb. All the variable have been compared and discarded. We can only come up with one thing in common. Triple Crown Feeds. Well, now, we did use some Purina as we had all those coupons but........................... a few of these horses didnt eat it and so...........................unless of course, a volunteer fed it to them without my knowing. I followed some of the threads on feed here and there was a problem with TC around xmas which fits in with what happened here, horses off there feed. I am looking for answers here or help.

Does anyone who gets there TC from the Flowery Branch Plant have any feed left from xmas, Senior or Complete.? There will be an F on your feed label. Does anyone know anything that I dont know yet or know of horses who have mysteriously died that we can find similarities too? While SS paid for all the testing, the costs of treatment, exhuming and euthanazia and burial are left to us never mind the continuing attempts to treat my friends. The vet is coming here on his own time. We need your help and input here please.

All the horses who live on pasture and are capable of eating hay and grain are fine. It was just the oldest toothless kids who depended on there grain who are suffering with this. My heart is broken, just broken.

[bit-o-honey]

So sorry to hear of this crisis on your farm. I am pulling for you and the horses, to overcome this and find the root cause. It is a huge effort and I hope the clues add up to something tangible very soon.

For what it's worth, I returned some bags of TC Complete in early February, when I opened the bags, the feed was drenched with oil. At least twice as much as normal. I didn't feed it, and returned it. Lot 9033 but not sure where it was made. It was purchased in Northern VA. The recent bags are back to normal.

This is a real concern, as the primary reason I chose TC was because of their controlled ingredients and quality.

[Guin]

This is terrible; I am just now reading this thread. I have no ideas but it certainly is poison/toxicity of some kind. I am so sorry! Hopefully there will be a breakthrough soon and a diagnosis. :no:

[tidy rabbit]

Oh this is so heartbreaking. :cry:

I'm sending a donation to help out. I'm so sorry for all that you're going through and my thoughts and prayers are with you and the horses.

[TBlitz]

Lori: I don't have any ideas for you, but I'm jingling super hard for you and the kids! You're an amazing woman and take such amazing care of your horses. The horses you lost and the ones that may not make it through this were so incredibly lucky to spend time in your care. You gave them love and care in their life they otherwise wouldn't have had.

[lovemyoldguy]

Lori,

My heart is breaking reading these this thread. I'm so sorry for you and for these wonderful horses. I don't know why you're experiencing so many trials all at once, but I'm keeping you in my prayers.

I don't have a lot of $$, but my mortgage is paid for this month and some of what's left over is in your PayPal account. Stay strong and know that we're all pulling for you and jingling like mad.

[SpecialEffects]

Does anyone know Lot #'s for the feeds? Is it on invoices from the feed company to the feed store? And do the feed bags or feed bag tags have any production dates or best before dates? I know some of the feed I buy up here does.... some does not.

I'm just trying to figure out how to narrow down what bags to ask people if they have in their barn. Obviously testing a feed made weeks or months after is not going to help in any way. Since we also don't know how long some feed stays in the feed store....

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I just want to come on and thank everyone for putting their heads together and getting the word out. You don't know how hard it was to keep my mouth shut when the geek in me wanted to cast as wide a net as possible to get in all the data. Whew.

So, again, thank you all for your help and support!

[boosma47]

Such a tragedy for you Lori, and for your beloved horses.

Prayers are abundantly with you during this most difficult of times.

And, please take care of yourself.

[Chief2]

Lori, I am reading an article (A Deadly Mystery, Lee Farren) in a back issue of Equus (June 2007) about Fall Panicum hepatotoxicosis, poisoning caused by fall panicum or panic grass, which sounds right on target with what you are dealing with and would be perfectly timed to the occurrence of your cases. According to the article, it is not that the grass is fed out, but what time of the year (fall/early winter) that makes it so deadly, shutting down the liver.

It involves fall panicum, also known as panic grass, being baled into the hay that was being fed out at a farm in Virginia during December. In that farm's case, they spent weeks turning over every stone they could think of, revealing nothing. Then the vet noticed a grass in the hay she couldn't identify. Twenty-five bales were sent to Cornell, the grass identified, and then two healthy study horses were fed free choice hay from the farm. Both became ill with liver failure within 2 days, one later had to be euthanized. The farm herd received antibiotics and steroids, with blood levels drawn weekly. By mid-January, things began to turn around. Of the 14 horses that were fed the hay, 5 were euthanized.

The botanical name of the plant is Fall Panicum (Panicum dichotomiflorum), the attending vet at the Triple J Farm farm was Melinda Freckleton, DVM, of Haymarket Veterinary Service, and a reference article listed is,
"Fall panicum (Panicum dichotomiflorum) hepatotoxicosis in horses and sheep," Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine, November-December 2006

I hope this helps. How are things going?

[titan]

Jingles from MI. I feed TC 30% & growth and have not had a problem. Sorry I can't add any information.

[ChocoMare]

Lori, I am reading an article (A Deadly Mystery, Lee Farren) in a back issue of Equus (June 2007) about Fall Panicum hepatotoxicosis, poisoning caused by fall panicum or panic grass, which sounds right on target with what you are dealing with and would be perfectly timed to the occurrence of your cases. According to the article, it is not that the grass is fed out, but what time of the year (fall/early winter) that makes it so deadly, shutting down the liver.

It involves fall panicum, also known as panic grass, being baled into the hay that was being fed out at a farm in Virginia during December. In that farm's case, they spent weeks turning over every stone they could think of, revealing nothing. Then the vet noticed a grass in the hay she couldn't identify. Twenty-five bales were sent to Cornell, the grass identified, and then two healthy study horses were fed free choice hay from the farm. Both became ill with liver failure within 2 days, one later had to be euthanized. The farm herd received antibiotics and steroids, with blood levels drawn weekly. By mid-January, things began to turn around. Of the 14 horses that were fed the hay, 5 were euthanized.

The botanical name of the plant is Fall Panicum (Panicum dichotomiflorum), the attending vet at the Triple J Farm farm was Melinda Freckleton, DVM, of Haymarket Veterinary Service, and a reference article listed is,
"Fall panicum (Panicum dichotomiflorum) hepatotoxicosis in horses and sheep," Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine, November-December 2006

I hope this helps. How are things going?

I remember that article too!

Here's more info on another related species, Panicum Virgatum (aka Switchgrass)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panicum_virgatum

[Louise]

Donation sent. Lori, my heart just breaks for you, in this awful situation.

[msrobin]

I have a bag of triple crown complete the lot number is F9043 bag# 0497
I just got it and have fed from it for two days, my boy has been on it for a month and he seems fine.
I am so sorry to hear about your horses, I am praying you can find the reason behind this. However I would contact TC right away so they can look into it as well.

Jingles

[mandygeorge]

I lost my horse in January and fed him Triple Crown Senior. I was talking about this with vets assistant this past weekend and she said she had heard something about Triple Crown milling their horse feed in the same mill as cow feed which is possibly putting a mold from the corn into the horse feed.

[cloudyandcallie]

I lost my horse in January and fed him Triple Crown Senior. I was talking about this with vets assistant this past weekend and she said she had heard something about Triple Crown milling their horse feed in the same mill as cow feed which is possibly putting a mold from the corn into the horse feed.

I was thinking that too, but we need a bag of the feed to get a scientific lab to run for toxins. This is why I like Seminole, because they don't run any feed but horse feed. Every few years I read in the Chronicle where some horses in PA or OH die from a local mill running horse feed right after cow feed. Plus the mill outside of Savannah killed multiple horses by not cleaning after running cow feed.

Now we need a bag of TCC that was run in the same mill as was Lori's, about the same time, last fall or Jan. Lori is too neat and didn't have any loose feed under the feed containers or in old bags in stacks. Some one has to be sloppy and have some TCC feed. We need that to have it run for molds and cow additives. Otherwise other horses will die.

[Ghazzu]

We need that to have it run for molds and cow additives. Otherwise other horses will die.

That is making a rather large leap.

[Barnfairy]

Leptospirosis (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=8220) in horses is more commonly linked with uveitis, but it can also cause acute renal failure (particularly in weaker animals like foals or geriatric horses).



Many horse people don't know that much about leptospirosis. If you have heard of it, it is probably in reference to cattle, other livestock, or maybe dogs. However, leptospirosis does affect horses, and it can be the cause of some serious health problems, including abortion in pregnant mares and chronic uveitis (moon blindness). It is a disease that has not been studied much in the horse, but several scientists have been calling for further research and for the development of an effective equine vaccine.

What is it?

Leptospirosis is a zoonotic (transmitted between animals and man) bacterial disease found worldwide that can affect any mammalian species, including humans, wildlife, rodents, livestock, and, yes, horses. The disease is caused by leptospires, which are motile (capable of moving) bacteria called spirochetes. Leptospires are subdivided into serovars and serogroups (subgroups). Those of importance to the horse include pomona, grippotyphosa, hardjo, bratislava, canicola, and icterohaemorrhagiae. They are very common in both domestic and wild animals.

Craig Carter, DVM, PhD, director of the University of Kentucky's Livestock Disease Diagnostic Center (LDDC) and professor of epidemiology, College of Agriculture, tells us horses become infected through mucous membranes of the eyes or mouth and sometimes through broken skin by contact with infected urine, blood, or tissues. Horses can become infected by eating hay or grain that has been contaminated by infected urine [from rodents or other infected animals], or they can contract it by drinking from standing water that has been similarly affected. In some cases horses are affected by the direct splashing of infected animals' urine into the eyes or mouth.

The incubation period for leptospirosis in horses is one to three weeks. Horses might experience a variety of clinical signs, including fever, loss of appetite, swelling of the eyes, light sensitivity, tearing, ocular discharge, eye cloudiness, and redness around the eye, as well as lethargy and mid- to late-term abortion. Adult horses have been known to develop jaundice and even die from kidney and/or liver failure. Diagnosis of leptospirosis can often be overlooked because the clinical signs of the disease are common to other diseases. Only laboratory tests of blood or urine can confirm if leptospirosis is present.

Another unique factor in this disease is that the bacteria seem to cluster in different parts of the body, such as the eye, kidney, liver, or reproductive tract. An article on leptospirosis-induced uveitis in Cornell University's newsletter recommends "prompt treatment, which may include steroids, antibiotics, and medications to dilate the eye."

Drugs of choice, according to Carter, are oxytetracycline, streptomycin, or penicillin. Although leptospirosis vaccines are available for dogs, cattle, and pigs, there are no approved vaccines for horses. Cattle vaccines have been tried in horses, but they are not proven to be effective and might produce negative side effects.

The primary conditions associated with leptospirosis in horses are chronic uveitis (moon blindness) and abortion. Chronic uveitis occurs when the leptospira bacteria enter the eye, creating an immune reaction. The clinical signs, as touched on above, are ocular inflammation, redness, cloudiness, tearing, light sensitivity, and strong muscle spasms closing the eyes. In severe cases, it can cause a calcification of the cornea, permanent blindness, atrophy (wasting away) of the eye, and glaucoma (an increase in intraocular pressure that can cause blindness). Leptospirosis-induced uveitis is often a painful condition for the horse, and veterinarians recommend that treatment begin as soon as possible.

An Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs Fact Sheet discusses a variety of treatments, including steroids given topically or systemically to reduce inflammation. Atropine is recommended to dilate the iris, which will help relieve the muscle spasms, photosensitivity, and tearing.

German researchers isolated leptospires from the eyes of infected horses and were able to identify them as belonging to the grippotyphosa subgroup and a few from the australis subgroup.

Equine abortions occur when the bacteria migrate to the uterus or placenta, then to the fetus, resulting in fetal death. Abortion is most often associated with the L. pomona subgroup infections. Some research suggests that leptospirosis infection is a vastly underreported cause of abortions.

Precautions and Preventions

So what can we do about leptospirosis? Prevention is the best option available at this point. Good management techniques at the farm can help reduce the risk of infection. Keep wildlife away from feed sources and do not allow standing water to accumulate (or at least do not allow the horses to drink from stagnant water sources). Standing water might be contaminated with leptospirosis-tainted urine from wildlife or cattle.

Good disinfection programs will help reduce the risk of exposure to leptospirosis (and many other diseases).

So why don't we have a vaccine for horses? Several factors contribute to the lack of a vaccine, with two topping the list. The first is a lack of data to support the need for a vaccine. There have only been limited studies on leptospirosis in horses, most of which have been epidemiologic studies on a limited scale. No one really knows how many horses are affected each year, so it has been difficult to generate interest and funds to research the disease. For this reason you might consider donating money for leptospirosis research.

Second, there are many subgroups of leptospirosis that can affect horses. Researchers in Northern Ireland, including Professor William A. Ellis, found that horses were susceptible to far more strains than animals such as cattle and dogs. In other species, one serogroup is overwhelmingly present. In horses there are seven serogroups, and there was no clear indication which one(s) was (were) predominant. This might explain why the cattle vaccine is not particularly effective in horses, as cattle are affected almost exclusively by the sejroe serogroup.

Yung-Fu Chang, DVM, MS, PhD, Dipl. ACVM (veterinary microbiology), a professor in the department of population medicine and diagnostic sciences at Cornell University, has been developing an equine leptospirosis vaccine. His group has experimented with a DNA vaccine for leptospirosis.
Several scientists are working to place a national focus on leptospirosis. Recent Kentucky research from Carter and his colleagues has been at the forefront because it showed a significant number abortions were caused by leptospirosis in 2006 and 2007. The scientists diagnosed 41 cases of leptospirosis at necropsy using fluorescent antibody testing on fetal kidney and placental tissue. The predominant serovars found though antibody testing on the aborting mares' serum were L. pomona and L. grippotyphosa. Carter feels that the number of cases diagnosed at the laboratory might represent just the tip of the iceberg. As many as five to 10 times more abortion cases might have occurred around the area.

In 2007 there was a follow-up survey conducted on economic loss of the affected farms. Less than half of the farms responded, but those that did reported $3.5 million in lost revenues as a result of the abortions caused by leptospirosis. This is an indication of the economic impact a disease like this can have on a region like Central Kentucky, where a single foal can potentially mean millions in profit. Another study by K.B. Poonacha et al. in 1993 in Veterinary Pathology identified 67 cases of leptospirosis in 51 fetuses and 16 stillborn foals in Kentucky.

Current and Future Work

Carter presented the 2006-2007 data to the American Association of Veterinary Laboratory Diagnosticians annual meeting in Reno, Nev., in October 2007. This group comprises the leadership in laboratory medicine for animals in the United States. Carter and others are now studying 14 years of equine leptospiral abortion cases received by his laboratory to better understand the conditions under which horses are at a high risk, such as high rainfall. He hopes this and other studies will underscore the need for more research on equine leptospirosis and provide the impetus for development of a vaccine.

To that end, the University of Kentucky recently developed a working group combining the resources of area practitioners, the Livestock Disease Diagnostic Center, scientists at the Gluck Equine Research Center, and the College of Public Health's statistics resources to conduct an epidemiological study and a nationwide impact study of equine leptospirosis.

Take-Home Message

Carter urges owners and veterinarians to recognize leptospirosis as a disease that is here to stay. He also urges horse breeders to keep in mind that an abortion could be caused by leptospirosis, especially in a year with high rainfall or when wildlife have been present. Prevention includes minimizing contact between horses and wildlife/rodents, and especially keeping these creatures out of feed areas.
Make an effort to reduce stagnant water and recognize the risk of commingling horses with cattle and sheep, as the latter two could introduce infected urine into ponds and other standing water. If you have an abortion or a case of uveitis on the farm, send in samples of the affected horse's blood or urine (or fetus and placenta, in the case of abortion) for testing. Talk to your veterinarian about leptospirosis and work with him or her on collecting samples if you think it is indicated. Until we fully understand the epidemiology of this disease--which might be increasing in prevalence--the industry won't be able to develop a vaccine.

[IFG]

I am so sorry for you. I feed TC Senior, but I am in the NE, and it is milled by Blue Seal. A word on how to read the bags: F9043=F mill, Julian date so milled on the 43rd day of 2009.

[Trevelyan96]

Lori,

I just picked up a bag of TC Complete this weekend, at SS and still have the bag. None has been eaten yet, I picked it up for Inky, who will be arriving this weekend.

Thing is, the tag is useless, it has no info at all except the Lot#. No ingredients listing or anything. Is that normal? All of my Legends feed tags have complete information, including the ratios of protein, fiber, etc, and the mill. This tag is totally blank, just 1 printed line that read:

2140 Lot#4037 Bags 0237.

Let me know if there is another place I can look to determine where it was milled, and if you need it I will put a ziploc in the mail for you tomorrow!

Sure makes me wish I didn't have to feed it to Inky when he gets here this weekend. I'll be switching him over to Legends as soon as possible.

[Cougar85]

The symtoms sound exactly like what was reported in western NC last fall.. Horses were primarily pastured, daily grain ration, and their symtoms extremely close to yours, and I recall that the outcome of blood panels was very similar to what you describe. No specific poison(ing) was attributed but aflotoxin (sic) was strongly suspected. The last I heard of it, it was being put that the toxin was in the pasture grass rather than the grain.
I'm so sorry for your horses and your loss.

[Barnfairy]

Trevelyan, the analysis and full list of ingredients for a Triple Crown formula are typically printed on the back of the bag itself, not a tag. The Complete bag should look like this: analysis (http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/completeanalysis.php).

[cloudyandcallie]

Lori correct me if I got this wrong:

The only thing that these horses who are sick/died have in common is the triple crown complete. (except for the well water but all the horses get this and only those n TCC are ill)
some are on dry lots
some on pastures
some get to the pond
some don't get to the pond.
some have hay. (I don't think the sick/dead horses were on hay, but I'm not sure that maybe one or two were. I know some had bad teeth and cannot eat hay.)
some don't have hay.

now all horses at Lori's get the same water, but only the horses on TCC are sick/dying.

DGRH and Lori, correct me if I am wrong.
DGRH told me about this a few weeks ago. So I think I have this right. So we're not talking about grass causing all to be sick, or hay, but that the sick/dead horses are/were the only ones getting TCCmplete. All other horses on other grains and on hay and with same water are not showing these symptoms.

Anything you can send Lori would be much appreciated, as she is incurring expenses above the normal horse care. www.SpecialHorses.org has the link to pay by paypal. $5 is a help on the meds and vet bills. And she has pneumonia, so if anyone around there can help out????

[rumbagrl]

I am so sorry for your losses. I feed TCC and TC Sr to a 9 and 24 yo. There have been no illnesses ,food refusal or anything out of the ordinary with the feed. Long time TC user, also. Latest bags fed TC Sr 0858 lot# F9030 bag#0209. TCC 1244 lot#F9029 bag#0416,1246 lot#F9029 bag#0423. Recent annual lab/exam on oldster end of Jan. showed mild decrease WBC, slight increase LDH, slight increase potassium (will be watching these labs over time,btw to see if any trends). No increase in BUN,creatinine or liver function tests. No weight loss or issues other than chronic arthritis. Vet stated looked "awesome for age".Thought some info from someone with same feed,older horse and recent vet exam/labs might help.

[Iride]

Lori and your horses, my heart goes out to you. I had an experience last winter in Florida that I can share, not sure if it is helpful or not. Both my young and my older horse were on Ultium. Both went off their feed at the same time. Young horse did not get sick or show signs of sickness or distress. But older horse developed mild jaundice, high fever, kidney and liver abnormalities as show in blood workups, was dehydrated, depressed. He was treated aggressively with Banamine (initially, before kidney was implicated), tetracycline, Bute IV, and 10 days of sulfa rectally. He also got flushed with DMSO. This horse rebounded after about a week. It wasn't until I got back to the NE from FL that I heard about the Purina grain poisoning scare. At which point I immediately switched to... Triple Crown, based upon their reputation for quality control. I never did find out if the Purina/Ultium was the culprit but it sounded possible.

I am very distressed to hear of this. My horses are on Senior and Complete. I will check the bags in the a.m. I have no idea what plant they come from but I'm pretty sure they're from Southern States.

My thoughts are with you.

[sproutdq]

What a sad situation, and stressful! I am the veterinarian mentioned earlier in regards to fall panicum. The kidney failure does not fit with the cases I saw, but that does not fully rule it out. If your veterinarian wants to compare notes regarding that I am happy to speak to him or her, or, even better they could contact Dr. Divers at Cornell University. My office number is 703-754-3309. My heart goes out to you, I know how devastating a poisoning situation can be! Good luck! Melinda Freckleton, DVM

[2Jakes]

Lori,

Hope your charges are haging in, and you too. I know its a drop in the bucket but the Jakes sent their March allowance for your guys. Check your PayPal. JakeK9 also sends hith love to Parith.

Take care. Hugs and jingles,
Lisa and the 2 Jakes

[Iride]

I couldn't help but notice that the Sticky is no longer posted for this thread. Anyone know why?

[hoofnhopper]

I've been feeding TC to my herd for years. My two oldies (21 and 24, in excellent health) are both on TC Senior and have been doing well (and the dogs who clean up the drops). My bags are from the same mill as yours- while I don't have any grain left from Dec/Jan, I still have the empty bags with residue inside. If you need them I can send them to you, or whomever you would like to do testing, just PM me...

Jingles for you and your kiddos!

[equinelaw]

What a sad situation, and stressful! I am the veterinarian mentioned earlier in regards to fall panicum. The kidney failure does not fit with the cases I saw, but that does not fully rule it out. If your veterinarian wants to compare notes regarding that I am happy to speak to him or her, or, even better they could contact Dr. Divers at Cornell University. My office number is 703-754-3309. My heart goes out to you, I know how devastating a poisoning situation can be! Good luck! Melinda Freckleton, DVM


Just wanted to repeat this as it is very important info:yes:

[cloudyandcallie]

I've been feeding TC to my herd for years. My two oldies (21 and 24, in excellent health) are both on TC Senior and have been doing well (and the dogs who clean up the drops). My bags are from the same mill as yours- while I don't have any grain left from Dec/Jan, I still have the empty bags with residue inside. If you need them I can send them to you, or whomever you would like to do testing, just PM me...

Jingles for you and your kiddos!

Lori needs samples of the TC Complete. Do you know anyone who has any from that mill?
Thanks.

[cloudyandcallie]

I couldn't help but notice that the Sticky is no longer posted for this thread. Anyone know why?

Uh oh,

[cloudyandcallie]

What a sad situation, and stressful! I am the veterinarian mentioned earlier in regards to fall panicum. The kidney failure does not fit with the cases I saw, but that does not fully rule it out. If your veterinarian wants to compare notes regarding that I am happy to speak to him or her, or, even better they could contact Dr. Divers at Cornell University. My office number is 703-754-3309. My heart goes out to you, I know how devastating a poisoning situation can be! Good luck! Melinda Freckleton, DVM

How nice of you to offer. I'm sure Lori will get her vets to contact you. I'm sure she is out sitting with the horses, despite her pneumonia. The horses are very very ill.

[snkstacres]

Thankyou all for your ideas. I had never heard of FallPanicum but can rule that out in a heartbeat.

There are 7 horses effected, 4 are already gone. None of these horses eat grass, 4 of them didnt eat hay. All of them are predominantly dependant on grain and beetpulp.

Leptosporosis was the first thing we looked into, negative. I had originally though maybe after the flooding, the ponds were contaminated but.............3 horses have no access to the ponds at all.

I normally do not feed Purina. The nearest dealer is an 80 mile round trip drive but............................................... ..when those lovely coupons came out for the $15 off, I made the trip and supplemented with Purina Senior.

Three of the effected horses were not supposed to eat Purina but..............................I have seen how often the volunteers make mistakes, it could be the Purina but........... by the word of the person who fed while I was in Canada, no. I have not ruled it out.

I also dont necessarily believe that any poisonings happened at the mill. How many of you find yourself with a taped up bag when you get home. Most feed stores I know of have rodent control of some sort, it could get swept into the bag.


There are a million variables here including the animal control officer who finally got fired just before all this started. But, how did he isolate the horses.

No horse here who eats hay or is on pasture is effected. It is only the aged and toothless but.............................once one of my younger boys was found to have it, then I knew something was all wrong. Printz is not old, he had been hit by a truck and was left with many broken parts including his face. He only eats complete feeds. He does not run with the herd as he is frightened by them. He was a stallion for 13 years and so, he still lives an isolated life.


My email is going insane. So everyone knows, Commander, Lightning and Printz are the ones still alive. They start a steroid treatment today and hopefully we can get this under control. It may be permanent steroids but......................................Lightning and Commander are both very aged anyhow. But Printz, he is a spring flower yet.


Please, lets not panic. NO need to get me sued by TC LOL. There is an answer here and we have now added more vets from Coth to help out the ones already in hire. Brainstorming is all we need to do.


thanks so much for all the good wishes and prayers.

[snkstacres]

Hello Melinda, Whew a bit of sanity. I know for sure it is not fall panicum as several of these old folks have never been on a pasture. The common denominator was all had either no teeth or very little and were dependant on complete feeds and beetpulp as the majority of there diet. If not all. I honestly believe it was caused by Purina Feeds but........according to the volunteer caring for the horses at that time, they were not fed any as it was not on there menu. I am sure there was a mistake though. Sadly, I have no feed left from that time frame. I go through tons of feed week and we dont keep bags and tags lying around.

My vets name is hahah he is probably being beseiged with calls now LOL
Sadly, nothing is going to bring back my friends. I was prepared for losing old folks but.......not in such a way for sure. Thanks for your caring.

[lovemyoldguy]

What a sad situation, and stressful! I am the veterinarian mentioned earlier in regards to fall panicum. The kidney failure does not fit with the cases I saw, but that does not fully rule it out. If your veterinarian wants to compare notes regarding that I am happy to speak to him or her, or, even better they could contact Dr. Divers at Cornell University. My office number is 703-754-3309. My heart goes out to you, I know how devastating a poisoning situation can be! Good luck! Melinda Freckleton, DVM


Dr. Freckleton is one of the vets in the practice that I used for Rebuff, and they all are wonderful. Dr. Freckleton herself came out on an emergency call one night and could not have been nicer or more comprehensive/aggressive in her treatment of my old guy, which I really appreciated. Just wanted to put in a good word - I'd call her if there's even a remote possibility that she can shed some light on the situation.

Lori, hang in there and PLEASE take care of yourself too. (((hugs)))

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Just bumping up - so grateful to everyone who is putting their heads together to help out.

[Everythingbutwings]

Dr. Freckleton is one of the vets in the practice that I used for Rebuff, and they all are wonderful. Dr. Freckleton herself came out on an emergency call one night and could not have been nicer or more comprehensive/aggressive in her treatment

Ditto. My beasts have been in their care since birth and I have nothing but the highest praise from my personal experiences.

[Whoanellie]

ARGHHHHH! I just wrote the Great American Novel about all this as my computer went haywire and shut down. Anyway......

I read snkstacres accounting and could not help but notice the similarities as to what is going on with Wanda. Mod1 moved my thread to Horse Care so that I might get more responses. (Thanks Mod1 !!) I’ll post to both threads.
cloudyandcallie, Sorry for the delay in response!

Wunnerful Wanda-Horse Care Forum (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=192630)

Bump for Lori. She's been going thru this with the vets helping her (costs $) for months......

Anyone having the same problems? PM Lori if you have. I PM'ed TIER who has had similar problems????, and haven't heard back yet.

Anyone heard of any recent (last fall to now) feed recalls or horses getting sick/dying in groups? I called my feed company and asked at the feed stores. Everyone please check and help Lori both with information and donations.

Bad times for rescues.

At first reading, I did not think there was a common denominator in feeds. We are in California and do not feed TC due to it costing $20+ per bag. Donations are at an all time low and we just can’t afford TC. But........In late November/early December we received a donation of 2 bags of TC that was fed to our Old Soldiers (Wanda, Jake, Honey, Dolly) with a few scoops going to some of the other residents as a “treat”. We don’t normally feed sweet feeds. The four horses mentioned received the bulk of the two bags and I did not save the packaging. Jake is gone-his CBC and chemistry did not indicate liver or kidney problems. He was euthanized due to damage to his colon (paralyzed) from an impaction. I cant’ help but wonder at the similarities in symptoms for Wanda.

........ The common denominator was all had either no teeth or very little and were dependant on complete feeds and beetpulp as the majority of there diet. If not all. I honestly believe it was caused by Purina Feeds but......... Sadly, I have no feed left from that time frame. I go through tons of feed week and we dont keep bags and tags lying around.

Sadly, nothing is going to bring back my friends. I was prepared for losing old folks but.......not in such a way for sure. Thanks for your caring.

snkstacres, I am so sorry for your plight. From experience, I know your heart is breaking and the frustration you are going through. I feel the same about Wanda........almost helpless!!

Although Wanda looks awful and has lost weight, she is bright eyed, interested in eating growing grass and likes to dash about in turnout. For the past 3 days she has eaten ALL her hay and her Kruse 9% feed. I don’t know if she is starting to recover, or if this is her last hurrah.

I contacted our vet for a copy of the bloodwork. Caron at BlueRidge Distribution is sending us some product to support Wanda’s liver/kidney, etc. function. We will see how it goes. If she begins to decline again, we will let her cross the Rainbow Bridge with dignity and respect.

As snkstacres said, “I was prepared for losing old folks but.......not in such a way for sure.”

[nightsong]

I honestly believe it was caused by Purina Feeds but

You've got a whole lot more information than ANYONE else at this point, and you may have it figured out, whether you are aware of it or not. Hugs.

[monstrpony]

I honestly believe it was caused by Purina Feeds but.........

:confused: So, is TC off the hook now? Or was this a (very understandable) confusion? Just want to be clear on which to be concerned about (I do feed both!) Do you know which Purina plant your feed comes from?

I still can't believe that if it were the feed, there would be other horses becoming ill, besides those at SKA. Unless your idea of it being something that got into a single bag of feed by mistake.

Still thinking of you and your oldsters--hope this mystery will be solved soon, and that the remaining three who are ill can recover!!

[equineartworks]

Purina... I sent coupons to you and everything Lori. :( God, I hope it isn't the purina. :(

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

:confused: So, is TC off the hook now? Or was this a (very understandable) confusion? Just want to be clear on which to be concerned about (I do feed both!) Do you know which Purina plant your feed comes from?

I still can't believe that if it were the feed, there would be other horses becoming ill, besides those at SKA. Unless your idea of it being something that got into a single bag of feed by mistake.

Still thinking of you and your oldsters--hope this mystery will be solved soon, and that the remaining three who are ill can recover!!

The horses that became ill were the ones completely dependent on feed (as opposed to forage). The other horses exposed to the same feed could also be affected, simply not to the same extent.

[FatPalomino]

It may be worth contacting a 2nd vet and/or the university, if you haven't done so Lori. Sometimes a fresh set of eyes on the situation can be enlightening. If UGA is anything like the vet school in Colo, they are hurting for cases and their students have a lot of time on their hands.

[prince and ponies]

Snackacres, so sorry for your loss-I noticed you mentioned beet pulp & am wondering if you have noticed anything different in that? I feed beet pulp & recently I bought some (that was labeled Plain Beet Pulp Shreds)-well, when I opened the bag I noticed it looked a little different that usual, then when I added the water to soak it, the water turned very brown like BP with molasses does. After further checking, I discovered I had 6 bags of plainly labeled PLAIN BEET PULP SHREDS & all of it was actually with molasses. Went to 2 different feed stores locally & we checked the bags labeled BEET PULP WITH MOLASSES & it was plain BP. The bags were labeled incorrectly from the plant (which I think is in CA). The stores were supposed to talk to the people they got the BP from & try to sort it out but I haven't heard back from them. It probably wouldn't be an issue with most people, but my horse has cushings & isn't supposed to get anything with molasses in it. So, you may want to check your BP. If anyone wants to know the name send me a pm.

[NoGreatMischief]

I don't have anything really useful to add but wanted to say my heart goes out to you Lori... from your posts on COTH over the years it is plain that you do nothing but right for every equine (and human!) that needs you, and I am so sorry that you are going through this. :sadsmile:

[summerhorse]

I have no new ideas, I just want to say how sorry I am this happened.

[snkstacres]

thanks so much everyone. Monstrpony. really, my horses are not the only ones effected. Look how many people on here lost one horse in much the same fashion but............you accept the answer. If it had not been for the numbers, I would have accepted this as simply there old age and a run of bad luck. But, when horses I know full well dont have cancer come sick, and horses who were vetted a week before hand suddenly have fevers and raging heartbeats, then one will begin to question.

There are several of us who have lost horses with similar circumstances. Bear in mind, only my aged folks are effected here. Do I think the other horses were not, no I think they were but, not to the extent. Horses were just a little off, blamed it on the drastic weather changes. I dont accept that any more.

Most of you have one or two horses who eat hay, get ridden and do normal horsey things. Those of mine who live that sort of life, were not overly effected. Those with compromised immune systems were.

I am not an isolated case. There were a few mysterious deaths in our community but......................sadly, those people came to the store to complain but never had a vet out. My vet records are a good enough indication that all the necessary parties jumped. Not one of my guys do I believe was in fact ready.

My hay comes from the west coast so I dont believe selenium deficiency is an issue. I have dealt with that in other animals so know well about it. All our hay has been tested and it checked out fine. I also sell a lot of hay and no one elses horses got sick. My guys got sick though, did not eat hay anyhow.

I am looking for hopefully the Purina issue that happened late last year. If this is an isolated feed store incident, then I just want to know that. If it is a feed supplier, then I have a few vet bills for them.

I cant bring back my friends but.........................I can hopefully save another.

[equinelaw]

Purina is usually pretty good about paying any bills from problems their feed caused.

I had one other thought. . . maybe something in the hay offsets some of the damage? So the horses who did not get hay lost a layer of protection the horses out on pasture or getting hay had?

[snkstacres]

That is absolutely correct EL. Forage is the natural way for a horse to eat. Without forage, there immunity system is compromised so...................when they ate something wrong, unlike the other horses, it affected them a whole lot more.

I have even wondered about the compounding of different feeds? I thought I read once where Purina Senior or something should not be fed with other feeds????????? NO time to do a search anyhow.

We started the steroids last night and yes, I am hoping for a miracle if that is ok. I am going to contact some of the testers used today to see if we can get the facts on the Purina. Maybe that is why those coupons were such a good deal huh. GEt back there customers or bring new ones on board.

I have to find the answer to this, thats all I know. Thank you everyone.

[RainyDayRide]

We started the steroids last night and yes, I am hoping for a miracle if that is ok.

How are they reacting to the steroids? Hoping you're getting a miracle too.

[cloudyandcallie]

If anyone wants to help Lori with expenses, a $5 donation can be made at
www.SpecialHorses.org
you put in the amt and paypal will charge to your credit card or bank acct.
Her vet bills are going to be humongous.
Hope the steroids are working and the guys pull thru this. But we need to find out what caused it so it won't happen again.

[Fixerupper]

Worth reading
http://www.knowmycotoxins.com/vequine.htm
http://www.knowmycotoxins.com/vequine9.htm

[monstrpony]

But we need to find out what caused it so it won't happen again.

Any progress on this?

[fernie fox]

Have the feed companies sent their vets to investigate these problems?

If not,I would insist they send one of their vets to help you.

There have been problems in Florida.

Symptoms were ,,,horses off their feed,NQR.these were very fit horses who were a lot stronger and able to take a certain amount of crap in their system.

Old horses cannot fight off such stuff.

[snkstacres]

Please listen now. Before I get my butt sued, or my vet does, listen up or reread my posts. I am using triple crown, will continue to use triple crown and am not encouraging anyone here at all to stop. I wanted help only in finding answers to this problem, not get people to stop using triple crown. This has blown way way way out of preportion and I cant begin to tell you what this is doing to lives here.

Triple crown immediately sent out representatives, soil and water analyzers and took in samples of all feed. They did nothing but try to help me solve this mystery. Now, its all turned around big time. I did not set out here to have all people stop using SS feeds but...................................that is what we are now being accused of and being blamed for thousands and thousands of dollars in lost sales.

This has got to stop. Its enough to lose my farm altogether.

[DeeThbd]

Is there any other factor, such as a dewormer, supplement or treat which was given to all of them?
You must be so frustrated.....good luck!
Dee

[trubandloki]

I think one of the biggest problems in narrowing down what might have caused this is that you have no way of knowing what any of these horses ingested or were treated with by any of the people tending to them when you were not there.

Someone could have easily given everyone a snack or treat or such and is now to afraid to mention it because of what is going on.

[eyesontheground]

Sunkissed,

I am hoping your get this resolved soon so you can get back to doing the wonderful work you do and living a normal life. Hugs for everyone (human and animal) at SKA.

[CoolMeadows]

I'm so sorry for what you're going through Lori. How are the horses doing? I can't imagine the stress and pressure you must be under and hope you have an answer very soon.

Question for the Mods - why isn't this in Horse Care?

And Fernie Fox, you have a PM.

[FlashGordon]

Just wanted to say I am so sorry for all you are facing Lori.

I hope things turn around for you and your horses real quick.

[suz]

holy crap, how on earth can this be turned around to make you a villain?? i am so sorry you are going through this---prayers, hugs and jingles headed your way in force.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I do not understand how Lori or her vets can be at fault. I knew about the situation long before she posted, and she consistently said how much Triple Crown had supported her, how they were doing analyses to determine what the issue could be. Lori was encouraged by many to cast a wider net for information - after all, if the issues were limited to her farm, then that implies a limited source of the problem. But if others, especially those who are single horse owners, were facing similar issues, that would strongly suggest a more widespread problem, and it would have been critical to get the information out there, to find the source, to limit other horses being put at risk. And, in fact, there was substantial evidence that others had been similarly affected. In one horse, you would think - cancer, or old age, or something. Think back to the dog food contamination issues, the peanut butter contamination - it is only by gathering as much information to see the scope of the problem that you can start to implement steps to correct.

That is all Lori and her vet wanted to do. I am very worried that people panicked - without reason - and this has led to very serious consequences.

[equinelaw]

Please listen now. Before I get my butt sued, or my vet does, listen up or reread my posts. I am using triple crown, will continue to use triple crown and am not encouraging anyone here at all to stop. I wanted help only in finding answers to this problem, not get people to stop using triple crown. This has blown way way way out of preportion and I cant begin to tell you what this is doing to lives here.

Triple crown immediately sent out representatives, soil and water analyzers and took in samples of all feed. They did nothing but try to help me solve this mystery. Now, its all turned around big time. I did not set out here to have all people stop using SS feeds but...................................that is what we are now being accused of and being blamed for thousands and thousands of dollars in lost sales.

This has got to stop. Its enough to lose my farm altogether.

You have done nothing wrong. You asked for other ideas, horses with the same symptoms and samples of the feed you used at the time. You never told anyone not to use TCC or accused them of any intentional wrong doing.

If they are threatening to sue or giving you grief, you have them call me. They should be doing all this, not you. You are not making wild, illogical accusations. You are just trying to find some answers and in doing so you may have figured out it was not TTC at all.

[fernie fox]

I have switched feeds so many times in recent years.:eek:

Recently I was feeding an expensive supplement to my guys.

All of a sudden this feed smelt absolutely awful.

Not rancid,but very chemical smelling,the smell hit you as you opened the bag.:eek:

The contents of different feeds now seem to contain so much crap.

I am thinking of going back to mixing my own feed,at least I know the ingredients then.

I am hearing more and more ,owners complaining that their horses are going off their feed and seem NQR.

The rubbish that some feed companies add to their feeds is quite scary.

More hay less grain is definately a good idea...Providing your horses can still chew hay.;)

[katarine]

well I'm feeding TCC and have been and will continue to. Everyone looks fabulous here in my world.

You can't get sued over this, you haven't suggested anyone stop, or blamed TCC, etc.

You are just overstressed and freaked out. You are not in any trouble with anyone, Lori!

[Equibrit]

Just settle down now. Nobody has quit feeding anything. Nobody will get sued.

[cloudyandcallie]

Have the feed companies sent their vets to investigate these problems?

If not,I would insist they send one of their vets to help you.

There have been problems in Florida.

Symptoms were ,,,horses off their feed,NQR.these were very fit horses who were a lot stronger and able to take a certain amount of crap in their system.

Old horses cannot fight off such stuff.

"My" feed company was involved in one of those investigations. Several horses got sick. My feed co. was called in, investigated with police and dept of agriculture. Worker at the barn had deliberately poisoned the horses. :eek:

[MunchkinsMom]

"My" feed company was involved in one of those investigations. Several horses got sick. My feed co. was called in, investigated with police and dept of agriculture. Worker at the barn had deliberately poisoned the horses. :eek:

:confused: Why on earth would someone do something like that? I hope there was some legal action taken and jail time provided to the person that did that.

[Ghazzu]

holy crap, how on earth can this be turned around to make you a villain?? i am so sorry you are going through this---prayers, hugs and jingles headed your way in force.


Beacuse as soon as Lori posted, half a dozen people ran off half cocked and began making blanket assumptions that it *was* the feed.

[tuckawayfarm]

We have looked at this with a fine tooth comb. All the variable have been compared and discarded. We can only come up with one thing in common. Triple Crown Feeds.

I don't think it's fair to say some readers of the OP went off "half-cocked" by thinking Lori's problems might have been caused by Triple Crown Feed. Just re-read this quote from the OP. I know how stressed Lori must have been typing that and was probably thinking outloud a little bit, but it does sound like she was blaming TC. Later posts brought up several other possibilities, but not everyone wades through a long thread like this one. I have been following because I feed TC and while I haven't changed, I am watching my herd very closely.

I wish Lori only the best and am a huge admirer of her rescue work, but to think that statement on such a heavily read BB (not to mention it was "stickied" at one point) wouldn't create negative publicity for Triple Crown is unrealistic. I am just hoping that if an answer is found, it will be posted ASAP.

I am also curious about the beetpulp and if it is soaked, how long it might have sat before being fed.

Jingling for both you and your horses Lori!

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

tuckaway, just fyi, some of the affected horses did not get soaked beet pulp.

[S1969]

Just sending ((((((((hugs))))))) and jingles to Lori and the horses.

[Equibrit]

I'd be tempted to get everybody a Coggins test.

[JSwan]

Do you meant to tell me the internet mobs sent the standard, "OMG" posts?

If so - I'm very sorry. I took your posts in the manner I think you intended. Just trying to figure out what happened.

I have not heard of any unexplained illnesses or deaths around here. None. Not for horses or any other species.

I do remember a few years back there were some pretty awful cases of horse's dying for "no reason". Turned out to be switchgrass. Another pretty horrific case turned out to be a mistake at the local feed mill.

Mistakes can happen but it seems feed companies do their level best to try and correct them as well as assist owners.

I'm sorry you don't have answers. I tried to read through all the posts but didn't - I assume you're contacted your ag dept?

Get some rest and I hope things look up soon. And I agree with Equbrit - EIA test might be a good idea.



I did not set out here to have all people stop using SS feeds but...................................that is what we are now being accused of and being blamed for thousands and thousands of dollars in lost sales.

This has got to stop. Its enough to lose my farm altogether.

[CoolMeadows]

If anyone else knows what feed these horses were eating, please PM me. My 25 year old ex-chowhound would appreciate the info while we're waiting on bloodwork. He's NQR, standing away from the herd, won't eat... I wish I could help Lori but I don't have the feed anymore.

Have the feed companies sent their vets to investigate these problems?

If not,I would insist they send one of their vets to help you.

There have been problems in Florida.

Symptoms were ,,,horses off their feed,NQR.these were very fit horses who were a lot stronger and able to take a certain amount of crap in their system.

Old horses cannot fight off such stuff.

[crosscreeksh]

Something we have recently dealt with in the sickness of 7 horses and the death of our stallion, Jagged Illlusion - with feed production costs up the mill had started adding corn glutton to the feed as a cheaper extender...our horse died from a toxic ingestion of a high rate of Sulphur in the feed. This was found after the necropsy when the pathologist wanted the feed tested at an independent lab. No where on the feed label does it suggest that there is corn glutten in the feed. Something you might want to have checked. The suphur has a cumlative effect...some horses tolerate more before getting sick - some survive, some don't. So sorry for what you're going through....been there myself.

[Iride]

Something we have recently dealt with in the sickness of 7 horses and the death of our stallion, Jagged Illlusion - with feed production costs up the mill had started adding corn glutton to the feed as a cheaper extender...our horse died from a toxic ingestion of a high rate of Sulphur in the feed. This was found after the necropsy when the pathologist wanted the feed tested at an independent lab. No where on the feed label does it suggest that there is corn glutten in the feed. Something you might want to have checked. The suphur has a cumlative effect...some horses tolerate more before getting sick - some survive, some don't. So sorry for what you're going through....been there myself.

What feed?!
and so sorry for your loss :(

[snkstacres]

Thankyou all, yes, I paniced but more at my vet being bothered than anything else. Dang it. Its enough to lose these kids as it is.

I absolutely believed TC complete and Senior were the common denominator. Turns out Purina could also have been but................................I was away for a week or so and then again. No BP was fed at that time cause I try and make it as easy as possible for the volunteers and hauling warm BP aint easy here.

I only want to know what caused this problem. Not blame. As I stated prior, it could have been an individual just as in FL, it could happen in a feed store, the variables are amazing.

No way did SS lose thousands in feed sales and if so, I want to see how they account for that in such a hurry.

I had nothing to do with the sticky and no knowledge of it being put up to begin with. I posted only when I had no choice because I figured it was better coming from the source as word was already getting around. It had been going on for weeks and I did not want to post until I had an answer.

I will let you all know what happens here. I am getting some very interesting calls as well is my vet. In the meantime, thankyou all for listening and caring.

[CoolMeadows]

Something we have recently dealt with in the sickness of 7 horses and the death of our stallion, Jagged Illlusion - with feed production costs up the mill had started adding corn glutton to the feed as a cheaper extender...our horse died from a toxic ingestion of a high rate of Sulphur in the feed. This was found after the necropsy when the pathologist wanted the feed tested at an independent lab. No where on the feed label does it suggest that there is corn glutten in the feed. Something you might want to have checked. The suphur has a cumlative effect...some horses tolerate more before getting sick - some survive, some don't. So sorry for what you're going through....been there myself.

I'm sorry about your stallion, he was beautiful. I'd also be interested in hearing what feed was used.

Thankyou all, yes, I paniced but more at my vet being bothered than anything else. Dang it. Its enough to lose these kids as it is.

I absolutely believed TC complete and Senior were the common denominator. Turns out Purina could also have been but................................I was away for a week or so and then again. No BP was fed at that time cause I try and make it as easy as possible for the volunteers and hauling warm BP aint easy here.

I only want to know what caused this problem. Not blame. As I stated prior, it could have been an individual just as in FL, it could happen in a feed store, the variables are amazing.

No way did SS lose thousands in feed sales and if so, I want to see how they account for that in such a hurry.

I had nothing to do with the sticky and no knowledge of it being put up to begin with. I posted only when I had no choice because I figured it was better coming from the source as word was already getting around. It had been going on for weeks and I did not want to post until I had an answer.

I will let you all know what happens here. I am getting some very interesting calls as well is my vet. In the meantime, thankyou all for listening and caring.


Lori, if they really told you that in a time like this when your horses are dropping, well.... that's insane and uncalled for!

I wouldn't be surprised if they've seen a drop over several months due to multiple horses going off the feed for whatever reasons, and people feeling the economic crunch and not being able to afford the high end TC feeds. I had no choice but to quit feeding it, my oldster wouldn't eat it.

I've always loved their products, but it's a bit silly to buy it when the horse won't eat it. My guy is 25, he could easily have an underlying issue which we're looking for. In the meantime, he's eating soaked Alf/Timothy cubes, FatCat, and 1 cup of Nutraflax. He's feeling peppier these past few days. Do you think your guys could eat cube mashes and no grain while you look for an answer? I still get mine through TC and the ingredients list only dehydrated hays.

I really hope you have your answer soon. The not knowing is tough. Remember to take care of yourself too!

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

This was the whole issue: what was the common denominator? And how widespread was the problem? Because some people in the area had contacted Lori (small town, word travels fast) about similar situations with their horses. If it is localized, the source must be local, one would think, and you would focus there before more horses were affected - and you'd try and figure out what those horses had in common to seek the source. If more widespread, arming horse owners with info is critical, not only to minimize effects of any damage already done, but to protect other horses. Most people, with one or two horses, especially if older or immune compromised, would not think to do toxicology panels or even assume it was anything out of the ordinary.

I would rather take steps to protect my horse and be overly cautious than be cavalier and risk serious illness or even death. Assuming whatever the source, that it is no longer an issue, it might be prudent to have a vet check horses that because of age or other conditions might be more sensitive, and the signs of problems could be subclinical. Head things off at the pass, as it were.

[LarkspurCO]

I'm unclear about the feed testing. Were the samples from the same lot the affected horses were getting? I assume b/c you were asking for others with this feed lot that they sampled a later batch.

If the cause were in the feed I'd presume it was only certain ingredients in the feed (e.g., distillers grain or wheat middlings) and, if that were the case, these same tainted ingredients could easily be included in other feeds from other manufacturers.

Last year shortly after changing from Ultium to a Progressive product, my 7 y/o TB became ill and feverish and began peeing bloody pee. His blood showed elevated kidney values, but no cause was ever detected for the problem. He recovered on his own, eating grass hay and drinking 30 gallons of water a day. Kidney values returned to normal. He was the only horse getting the new feed, and he recovered he went back on Ultium.

It's really pointless speculation on my part, and I'm not saying there's any link to SKA horses, but I do find it interesting that a lot of the ingredients on the feed tag are the same as TC Complete.

I tried switching the horse again recently to the same Progressive product and noticed him becoming more and more agitated (he's high-strung anyway) but also noticed him peeing more and more.

I've transitioned him back to Ultium and he's better. The only reason for the feed change was convenience for me, but I'll be making the extra stop to the Purina dealer from now on.

Wishing a speedy recovery for the old-timers!

[crosscreeksh]

Our feed comes from a large midwestern feed mill (not a famous countrywide one) The feed label gives NO suggestion of any suspicious ingredients. The pathologist at OK Diagnostic Lab that tested our stallion's necropsy samples called 6 days after beginning the testing and asked "how fast can you get me feed samples?" Since we are feeding 22 horses, obviously the feed that did the damage was long gone. I dump one bag of pellets into a fiberglass bin each day and scoop out the appropriate feed to individual buckets. Since the first horse was sickened 3 weeks earlier THAT exact feed was long gone, but we assumed that some random pellets and the dust from all the bags dumped would be in the bottom of the bin, we went to the bottom of the bin and recovered about a 1/2 gallon of fines and some of the pellets. That sample tested at 2100 PPM of Sulphur. Toxic to all livestock at that level. The feed was negative for Ionophones (cow feed additive). The absence does not rule it out, however, since the horses "ate the original evidence". The high Sulphur is significant, however. Also, my vet, who did the necropsy had treated a horse who was known to have sulphur poisoning - idiot owners fed high sulphur to kill ticks!! Duh!!!! If the man who owned the feed company hadn't mentioned, when he came to get his own feed samples, that they had started adding corn glutton to the feed for economy reasons - we would not have known the source. Sulphuric acid is used to extract biofuel from the corn before the side product of corn glutton is created. Amazing how much you learn while searching for an answer!!

[crosscreeksh]

Just another note: Our horse's urine was almost black at times before his death. All of the horses had violent, projectile diarrhea - the passing of a bowel movement was excrutiatingly painful - they were being burned up inside!! Necropsy showed ulceration in the stomach and intestines - no perforation, though. Not a death I'd wish on any one.

[Posting Trot]

Crosscreek--so what was it that actually killed the horses? What caused the massive ulceration?

How does corn gluten cause massive ulceration?

[crosscreeksh]

The feed test done by the lab showed a rate of Sulphur in the feed at 2100 PPM (parts per million) a level known to be toxic to "livestock" in general. No studies have been done to establish a safe or a toxic level. Some feed experts say 400 "MIGHT" be ok. The sulphur gets into the corn glutten during the process of extracting "ethanol" fuel (biofuel) from the corn. The glutten (all this is my understanding of the process) is the left over product after they get the fuel and is then added to feed as a cheaper ingredient than "pure" corn. Sulphur blocks the absortion of necessary vitamins and minerals in horses - Vitamin B, copper, selenium. The death is probably from muscle weakness/heart failure. The ulceration is from the burning of the tissues by the sulphur!!! Due to the horrible symptoms - studies of sulphur toxic levels would be fought by animal rights folks. I wouldn't want to try to make a horse die of sulphur poisoning!!!

[Lieslot]

Apologies, not totally related to this thread, but reading crosscreeksh post, I just started wondering. Can somebody put my mind at rest over this, please.
Sulphur blocks the absortion of necessary vitamins and minerals in horses - Vitamin B, copper, selenium. The death is probably from muscle weakness/heart failure.
Are all sulphurs alike? MSM is sulphur too, right? Could supplementing with MSM over the years cause a build up which then depletes the body of vit B?
I only ask because I have one horse craving B vits for unkown reasons. And another horse that previously had heart issues. Both been supplemented with MSM for years.

Lori, big hugs to you. All the best to you and the horses and the great job you do. I'm so sorry this is happening to you!

[crosscreeksh]

Sulphur is Sulphur, but you'd have to get a number % for MSM - I believe it would be microscopic, but I don't know. Sulphur DOES built up in the body...it was very important to OUR situation that the feed tested at a high rate - not that a high rate was found in the horse's tissues and/or fluids. A combination of high water sulphur content plus high feed content is enough to prove toxic. Since it was proven in our case to be a high level in the feed - "THEY" are responsible!!! Just today I have spoken to two new people who have or know someone with feed related issues who were unaware of the effects or presence of corn glutten in their feed!!!

[traceyinojai]

How are the horses? Any improvement?

[tcnhorsefeed]

Sunkissed Acres has been a long time customer and supporter of Triple Crown Feeds and we mourn the loss of her horses and hope that they are able to resolve the problem very soon. In fact, she still feels confident enough about Triple Crown that she is still feeding it today. After reading all of the entries up to Friday afternoon (Mar. 6), I would like to take the opportunity to respond to some of the comments made by others on the forum. I talked to Lori this afternoon and told her we would be posting this response to help ease the minds of horse owners who may have concerns about both Triple Crown and Southern States.

First, we were notified of the problem and our first response was to have our PhD contact Lori’s vet to go over ideas. A representative of Southern States visited the farm and did a Feed Investigation report to help us determine what the problem may be. Southern States is the manufacturer and distributor of Triple Crown feeds in Georgia. After our nutritionist and the veterinarian discussed the problem, we pulled samples from both the farm and retained samples from the feed mill and had them tested for known mycotoxins (such as aflatoxin) and ionophores (cattle antibiotics that are toxic to horses). The samples were negative for both potential toxins.

Second, we do not source any ingredients from China so a melamine contamination can be ruled out. Horse feeds and pet foods have few ingredients in common and there has never been a melamine problem in horse feeds that I’m aware of.

Third, selenium has been mentioned and Triple Crown uses an organic source of selenium called Sel-Plex that is substantially safer than other forms of inorganic selenium. Therefore, especially for the horses just on the feed, a selenium deficiency or toxicity would not be feasible. You can find out more about Sel-Plex at www.alltech.com.

Fourth, while we feel that our reputation and sales have been harmed by some readers who overreacted to some of the information, we never discussed any legal action with Lori or her vet. We did request her vet to supply us with a report of what has been done and his suspicions so we could better include that information in this response, but he opted not to offer that information based on client/patient privilege and we can understand that position. Helping Lori eliminate potential threats to her farm is our concern, not assigning blame.

Fifth, when feed is manufactured, we make tons not bags. The manufacturing runs involved in the contested feed were in excess of 10 tons each with no other reported problems from other farms. These other customers involved both young and older horses with varying levels of immunity.

Finally, there is a big misunderstanding among many horse owners on the quality of feed manufacturing today. I started in this business over 30 years ago and with most types of manufacturing, there have been major improvements. The major feed companies are now highly computerized to avoid contamination, mixing errors, and limit the amount of human errors that may occur in any manufacturing process. They are also regulated by the FDA and inspected regularly. They also have standards in place to limit the exposure from what and how ingredients are delivered. The types and quality of ingredients has also improved as has testing for various known potential problems. Southern States has gone the extra step and has all of their feed mills HAACP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Points) certified. This is an independent food safety program normally only used in the human food industry. Obviously, no system is fool proof as demonstrated by the Purina feed recall and the recent peanut butter problem, but the feed manufacturing system is much better than most people give it credit for. Believe me when I say that Triple Crown and Southern States are not in the business of taking product liability lightly.

While we do not have any more resources than Lori already has to solve her problem, we strongly feel that it was not a problem with the Triple Crown feeds or with the Southern States manufacturing process.

[ChocoMare]

Thank you for taking the time to response to this thread. Welcome to COTH!

Knowing Lori as I do, I know she just had to explore all avenues in an effort to unravel the mystery. Alas, a few folks went off the deep end and assumed facts not in evidence.

While I do not feed TC/SS feeds (nothing personal....EquiPride just works better for my program), I never hesitate to recommend them to friends, knowing that they are quality feeds that will meet their horse's needs in a low starch/sugar way.

[bird4416]

I second Chocomare in thanking you for your response. I feed Triple Crown Senior to the occasional rescue I foster and have nothing but good things to say for it. I hope the mystery at Sunkissed Acres is solved soon as I know it has to be frustrating to have sick and dying horses and not know why or how to prevent it in the future.

[S1969]

Thank you for those facts, and for taking the time to chime into this discussion. I feed both TC Senior & Lite and love them both.

Still jingling for Lori & her horses.

[pines4equines]

Yeah, thank you for responding. I love TC Complete.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Thank you for coming on board. (I don't feed my boy TC but I live in Missouri!)

[monstrpony]

Another happy TC (Lite and Sr) user here! And I feel even better about TC since you joined us to help clear up some misconceptions about feed production, relevant to this situation. Many thanks!!

[equinelaw]

tcnhorsefeed. . . .I did read your website info when this thread first came out. You have recommended feeds for certain horses. Under re-feeding the starved horse you do not have TCC as a recommended feed. You have 2 other SS feeds.

Can you please explain why? Is TCC not a good choice for such horses?

[Iride]

Count me in on the thanks due you, Triple Crown, for taking the time to appear on the boards and explain things and demonstrate your willingness to listen to the customer and work through problems seriously and together. I feed TC senior to both aged and young horses and it is fabulous.

To Lori, continued support and condolences and wishes for a swift end to your terrible heartbreak.

[snkstacres]

I am grateful that SS has come on also. Yes, I continue to feed TC and will continue to. Sadly, we still have the same problem here with another horse now urinating the reddish substance that is in fact muscle. We have started the horses on steroids and I can honestly say today that for the first time in a long time, I have hope that Printz may make it yet. I saw a semblance of my old friend (not old numbers). The other sick horse is also not an old folk as around here, 21 is a spring chiken. I will start her on the equiox tomorrow for four days to get the pain under control and then begin steroids on her as well. So far, that has been the only effective thing.

I am grateful that SS came as quick as they did and has been as helpful as can be. This is not an unusual run of badluck as has been suggested, this is a real medical issue. It is being caused somehow somewhere or has been caused a time ago and we are now seeing the effects. I am at a loss.

I am in fact heartbroken. I have seen a few of my longest residents go away now in a horrible way, not the way we had planned for sure. I am watching two of the oldest kids here slowly dissipate to nothing while hoping ferverently the meds will kick in.

Please just keep jingling for these kids. A necropsy of one of the younger ones will give us the answers we need but..........................I still choose life.

[jetsmom]

Lori- Praying for an answer and that your horses recover soon.

[dwblover]

Thank you Triple Crown for posting. I have fed your feeds for many years. I now feed Senior and will continue to do so for as long as you make it. You obviously have great customer service and that is very much appreciated.
For Lori, I will be thinking of your horses and you and I'll be sending lots of healing thoughts to you guys. Just hang in there!!!:yes:

[JSwan]

I'm very sorry if third parties have been overeager in assigning blame or castigating Southern States before the facts were known.

There is no doubt in my mind that Lori is an ethical, decent person who runs a good operation and I hope this mystery is solved soon. Lori - I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

I'm a long time Southern States client and will continue using SS for all my farm needs.

[trubandloki]

If a new horse is now showing symptoms does that not make it more likely the cause is environmental and this newer case might be a more recent exposure to something?

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

When Lori says "new" she means a different horse. All the affected horses have been there for quite some time.

[snkstacres]

Exactly Wendi. I have not taken in any new horses since this began. I was back and forth with my terminal brother as well as trying to figure out what was wrong here. I did not want to risk any "new" horse. Bird took one new horse home, she never came here and a farm in Cloudland took the other two that came in. They never set foot on this farm. the donkeys did but.....................never were they with the horses and to this day havent been.

The new sick horse is merely a long time old resident here who has until now shown little symptoms. You see, you have to catch them peeing. There is a real pattern that goes with this illness and catching them urinating is not an easy thing to do. Until then, it is a guessing game.

Still no answers but.......................it wont be long.

[trubandloki]

I did not think the new horse was a new resident. I was saying a different horse was now showing symptoms that were not previously shown in this horse. In other words, it did not come down sick at the same time as all the other horses did.
To me this makes the issues sound more environmental than a single bad batch of feed. Since the feed that caused the first bunch to become ill has long since been gone that is not likely the cause of the newest horse showing signs of illness.

[tcnhorsefeed]

You reference a website for recommending feeds for dibilitated hroses and that Triple Crown products are not recommended and Southern States products are. I'm guessing you are on the Southern States website and not ours at www.triplecrownfeed.com. Southern States has a good bit of information on Triple Crown on their site, but we have more on our own site. For older an abused horses the Triple Crown Senior has worked extrememly well on many horses and it is what we would typically recommend. The Low Starch has also worked well for older horses not in critically poor condition.

[Calamber]

Lori, is it possible that in the process of "washing" the corn gluten in the ethanol processing that some other chemical compound is forming? While I appreciate the speed at which the Southern States representatives responded, the answer to this crisis has to be to answer all of the questions. What about the sulphur processing, or that which is formed that was mentioned by Crosscreek? I have not done any reading on the reactive nature of sulphur. Does it tend to bind with any other metals or chemicals? Why did the rep not discuss that, if they truly want to answer all of the questions this is a very important one to look at. I find it insulting that they proferred that they would be so kind as to not sue you while you are seeking answers. While calm heads are needed, people are rightfully concerned and deserve complete answers and need to know. You are not accusing anyone of malfeasance but this has to be answered.

[crosscreeksh]

Crosscreek here again....I'm not a scientist, but I've done a lot of research into the Sulphur poisoning resulting in horrific illness of 6 horses and the death of our beloved stallion, Jagged Illusion. Several different feed company experts told me that Sulphuric Acid is used to extract the biofuel from the corn and corn glutten is the by-product of that process. THAT process is the source of the high sulphur - as admitted by the feed company that sold us the feed as "horse safe"!!! Also admitted by the company owner...."due to rising feed/corn prices ... in 2008 we started adding 200 pounds of corn glutten per feed batch, in 2009 we went to adding 400 pounds." This corn glutten addition DOES NOT show up on the feed label in any manner. It was only the honest admission made by our feed company owner while he stood in our barn. I've heard of several people with similar, "bizarre" illnesses in their horses. Since the Suphur does NOT appear on the label, they don't consider it a threat or possibility. It was the pathologist working on our necropsy results that sent the feed to be tested for Sulphur. It was not an expensive test. I sure would test if you are having a problem!!!

[pintopiaffe]

Forgive me if I've forgotten... does everyone get beet pulp?

I got two bags of beet pulp with what appeared to be corn meal or sawdust or... something. It really, really looks like cornmeal. It's being tested, and Blue Seal has been 110% in getting me replacement bags, testing etc. I happened to do a little digging via my employment, and called at just the right "after biz hrs" moment, and got the big whig manager of the mill where my beep is processed. He was pretty flummoxed as NO CORN should ever be on the same machine as the beep. They do Trotter, Contender, Hunter etc. on that machine. NO CORN, no coarse feeds. So how this corn dust (If that's what it is) got into my feed is quite mysterious to him. I'm waiting on some follow up.

In light of CrossCreek's unimaginable tragedy... it just struck me as something maybe worth looking into? I dunno. I'm SURE your beep is from an entirely different plant. (mine comes from VT) but... the whole corn gluten thing... I dunno. I'd be remiss if I *didn't* at least pipe up. :uhoh:

Still sending "get well" and STAY STRONG prayers southward. I truly cannot imagine. Times are tough enough without some X-Files illness sucking the life from them slowly. :cry:

[Iride]

I got two bags of beet pulp with what appeared to be corn meal or sawdust or... something. It really, really looks like cornmeal. It's being tested, and Blue Seal has been 110% in getting me replacement bags, testing etc. I happened to do a little digging via my employment, and called at just the right "after biz hrs" moment, and got the big whig manager of the mill where my beep is processed. He was pretty flummoxed as NO CORN should ever be on the same machine as the beep. They do Trotter, Contender, Hunter etc. on that machine. NO CORN, no coarse feeds. So how this corn dust (If that's what it is) got into my feed is quite mysterious to him. I'm waiting on some follow up.
:cry:

This is downright scary.

[pharmgirl]

Sorry if this has been mentioned (just read the last few posts basically), but I suggest reporting this to the FDA/CVM so they can keep track of it and help if possible. Others might be having similar problems and may benefit from more info.

Jingling!

[monstrpony]

Lori, is it possible that in the process of "washing" the corn gluten in the ethanol processing that some other chemical compound is forming? While I appreciate the speed at which the Southern States representatives responded, the answer to this crisis has to be to answer all of the questions. What about the sulphur processing, or that which is formed that was mentioned by Crosscreek? I have not done any reading on the reactive nature of sulphur. Does it tend to bind with any other metals or chemicals? Why did the rep not discuss that, if they truly want to answer all of the questions this is a very important one to look at. I find it insulting that they proferred that they would be so kind as to not sue you while you are seeking answers. While calm heads are needed, people are rightfully concerned and deserve complete answers and need to know. You are not accusing anyone of malfeasance but this has to be answered.

I don't believe the corn gluten incident is related to the issue that Lori is dealing with. It was someone else's horses, another time, and the feed in question in that episode has not been identified as being SS feed. So, no, the Southern States rep is not remiss in not addressing that issue.

[tcnhorsefeed]

Just to answer a couple of questions that have popped up in some of the latest entries. While there tend to be higher sulfur levels in corn gluten and even DD Grains, they can be managed by limiting the inclusion rates. We do not use any corn gluten in any Triple Crown diet, but we do use a small amount of DD grains, that actually provide an excellent source of digestible low carbohydrate fiber. We do limit the inclusion rate to a small amount to manage sulfur levels. The example used was a mill that apparantly dramatically increased corn gluten levels to reduce formulation costs. That is the benefit of a fixed formula feed versus a least cost formula feed. Triple Crown is stiricly a fixed formula feed company.

Beet pulp is processed and bagged at the mills where they process the beets for sugar. Therefore, it is unlikely that there is any contamination with corn since only beets would be in the facility. Mills like Blue Seal and Southern States do not bag the beet pulp at their mills, but buy the product from the supplier already bagged. Quality, color and particle size of bagged shredded beet pulp can vary from crop year to crop year and from the few mills where it is bagged. Bulk product used for manufacturing is screened and much more consistant. A good article on beet pulp can be found at www.triplecrownfeed.com/newsbeetpulp.php

There also continues to be some consternation that we have threatened Lori with legal action, and that has never been an issue.

[snkstacres]

An update for you all. We still have 5 horses that remain ill. While the steroids have now caused them to act like youngsters once again, there apetites have increased etc etc. it is simply masking the underlying problem. One horse missed his steroids one evening and by the next morning was urinating muscle tissue once more so...........that tells me we are fixing nothing.

Sadly, we are not medicating one of the horses at all. She is a wild horse and handling her is dangerous most of the time but now she is too weak to care much. But, it is agreed with all the medical people working on this that instead of a dead horse, they would now like a live one. No, I did not choose this and would never have either. She has made medicating her almost impossible and so, we are letting this run its course in order that they can watch what is happening until they have to euthanize her. Is it the answer.

Well, between all the universities, dept of ag, extension agents, vets, and feed dealers, it is amost a unanymous descision to say that i will never find out what caused this. There simply is no blood panel that will simply spell it out. We have run into the thousands of dollars already and they truly believe we are not going to find what it is that caused this type of toxicity.

Where this will end now remains to be seen. the old kids seem to be living a quality life at this time and if they should go downhill, taking there pain and making it my own wont be so terrible. they wont suffer like the first ones did for lack of knowledge. So while there are still 5 sick ones, the rest seem to be doing well and no signs of anyone else becoming ill either. Business as usual and horses are again coming in and doing just fine.

Hopefully, hopefully, we will come up with some sort of logical answer in time. In the meantime, thankyou to all who suffered through this with me and to those who helped us out both financially and emotionally. Losing my oldest pals was plain ole murder.

[Penthilisea]

Lori,
God bless you and thank you for the update.

[cloudyandcallie]

PJ sent Lori a bunch of stuff, including a very good saddle that someone must want to buy, as Lori needs money to medicate the horses. Thank you PJ. Anyone who wants a terrific saddle contact Lori.

Please send anything you can to Lori to help her: Items can be sold in her store, and money can be used for medications.

I think you can still donate at www.specialhorses.org

$5 will help, more will help more.

And don't forget the other rescues, money is tight, and they need your help also. Clean out the barn and the house and donate items to be used and resold, lots of household items can be used in the barn. Other rescues need money too.

[monstrpony]

This thing about urinating muscle tissue metabolites might be of interest to those who do research on RER/EPSM/tying up, since that is a consequence of the tying up syndrome, as well. Has this been considered? You seem to have (entirely unintentionally) created a "model" for this to occur, I wonder if there's anything to be learned from it--it would be nice to get some benefit from this ghastly experience.

Just a thought (and a curiosity)

[Over the Hill]

You know, the first time I read about the urine output of these horses, I thought of my experience years and years ago with a 5 year old OTTB gelding that I had. He started having unexplained episodes of tying up, mystifying both my (very good, cutting edge) vet and me.

There did not seem to be any precursers to his episodes. . . he'd be fine and then, with or without exercise, with or without outside stressors, he'd present with the classic syptoms of tying up again. One extremely bad episode, I was sure the horse was dying, laying out flat on his side, all stiff legged, and groaning in pain ( horrible, just horrible.) And peeing almost black urine.

My vet started him on, if I'm not mistaken, Roboxin, and I want to say calcium. . . while we tried to figure this all out.

The only thing that we could come up with as a cause for this was that he had been swimming in the pond and was attacked by snapping turtles, coming screaming out of the water with one still attached to his elbow. He had forty-two bites, only one of which was bad and that was to the bone. Vet treated immediately but the horse was just NQR for the longest time. We kept pulling blood panels on him to see how he was doing. This all happened so long ago, I forget how long, but it was a really long time until his blood panels were within normal ranges. We kept thinking that maybe it was some sort of poisoning induced by the turtle bites.

The end result being that he did survive ( he's 29 now ). I'm not sure if this helps at all or not, just that we never did completely figure it out, either, but the drugs at least kept him okay until his blood panels were within normal ranges again.

I am so sincerely sorry that you are having these problems, Lori, I know how it breaks your heart.

[snkstacres]

Monstrpony, Over the Hill. Very very interesting. A funny thing as well, the calcium issue was recommended to me buy a farm who is now suffering from the very same issues. They are feeding a product called 747 which they said has turned around some of there horses.

So, what have I got to lose. I will try it. I never quite thought of the tying up issue but....................it makes no sense to me why suddenly all these guys would start it, it does make sense that something is missing from there diets. I understand that a calcium deficiency should show on there hooves and we are not having a problem but.........................I am going to try calcium.

Sadly, I am not the only farm suffering from this issue. Now, that makes me wonder about fertilizers and what have you that we might be using in common on our fields.

Thankyou both of you for some more insight. There is an answer out there, I just dont know where but will let you know how the calcium works out.

I have hope once more. Something else to try.

[FatPalomino]

Lori, I'm glad Jason got in touch with you ;) I've been following your thread, and as soon as I heard about your problems, told him to get in touch with you.

Here's to hoping the 747 helps. I would have never thought of it.

Please, fellow COTHers, if you can spare a donation, please send it to Sunkissed Acres. They're one of the good ones. No amount is too small.

[Iride]

<<Now, that makes me wonder about fertilizers and what have you that we might be using in common on our fields.>>

Is it possible that some kind of insecticide or spray might have gotten too close to the stalls/grazing areas, etc.? It was just a random thought that came to mind when I read your thought above about fertilizers...

[CosMonster]

Just wanted to say that I hope this ends soon, and as well as it can. I'm very sorry for the suffering you and your ponies are going through.

[Equibrit]

Equine America Tye-Guard Liquid
946ml

Formulated for horses on highly nutritious diets performing strenuous exercise. Tye-Gard solution contains highly absorbable human grade Vitamin E and Selenium to promote healthy muscle function and lactic acid levels.

[paintjumper]

I will post for everyone else but I have an old stallion that needs equioxx daily. I can not take that expense as he will be on it for the rest of his life so I turned to the internet for a solution and I found it for less than 50 cent a day!!! The same drug!! Go to your dog vet and get the 227 mg previcox tablet for dogs. The tablets are scored, (have a breaking line down the middle). Break the tablet in half and then break the halfed tablet in half again, so the entire tablet has now been quartered. One quarter of the tablet is equal to 1 tube of equiox!! Feed the horse 1/4 tablet every day. My guy eats it right out of my hand in a hand full of sweet feed and he never knows he has had it! It seems a dogs metabolism metabolizes the drug 4 times faster than a horse, thus the small amount needed for a horse. My guy has been on it for more than a month and he is doing very well. Hope this helps everybody's pocketbook.