TIER's Wunnerful Wanda & Liver Problems

[Whoanellie]

We just lost Jake on 2/22/09. It was heartbreaking for me and his companions. During Jake's illness, another of our older rescues seemed to be not feeling well. The weather has been whacky and some of our residents water intake has been less than desireable. I've added Redmond Salt to their diet and it seems to have helped with the water consumption for everyone. Everyone except Wanda.

Wanda came to us a year ago. She had been abandoned along with several other horses at a property that had "supposedly" been an attempt at a Therapeutic Riding stable. The people moved and left these horses. New owners new nothing of horses and eventually the situation was made known to several in our community. Horse people came together and brought the horses into their homes. These were all older horses. One with Cushings, one that was lame, one that was blind in one eye and then there was Wanda.

Wanda is a huge black & white Tennesee Walker. She came to us after beginning rehab at a concerned horseperson's property. These wonderful folks could no longer keep her and she was brought to TIER.

Wanda is quite comical with a "Who Me?" look about her. It was hoped that once she had been fully rehabbed, we would be able to place her in a forever home. Due to her strong willed nature and being a little fiery, it hasn't been tht easy to find her a home as the majority of potential adopters we get are looking for that 'broke to death, go on down the road, bombproof' horse. (I wouldn't mind having one of those for myself!!) Wanda just didn't fall into that category and needed an owner with experience.

Previously, her water intake was up and she had been urinating quite a bit and I suspected IR or Cushings. Then, the frequent urination & excessive water intake tapered off. She then seemed back to normal.

I noticed she wasn't finishing all her feed. She had absolutely no interest in pellets :eek: and was not eating all her hay. In turnout, she flags her tail and flies all over. She then began an obssession with salt. We have a tub of Redmond Salt in the arena and the horses will eat a bit and go on about their business. Wanda was different. She would eat salt for quite awhile and I would have to pull the tub out when she was turned out.

This behavior just wasn't right. Sometimes she would finish her hay and other times she would leave quite a bit. I had her teeth done, and the Vet did a CBC. Results were not good. Liver problems.

Vet recommended low protein diet and grass hay. We normally feed an Orchard/Alfalfa blend, but Wanda would only nibble at this. I have tried Bermuda hay and then went on to Timothy hay. She would eat a flake or two and then decide she didn't care for it. We purchased low protein feed and she does eat some of this. Sometimes she eats it all and other times she does not. Water consumption is down despite adding salt to her feed.

When I fed her this morning all her hay was gone and most of the pellets from the day before. But......it seems that she has lost a lot of weight over night!!

I've read up on liver failure and it seems there is a slim chance of a good outcome. With our recent vet bills for Jake, donations being low, the emergency fund being depleted, etc. we are in a position where euthanasia & removal will "break the bank".

We have never had a horse with liver problems before and I'm not sure we are doing her any favors by continuing to hope for a turnaround.

Has anyone on COTH had experiences with liver problems that they were able to rectify? Or, are we looking down a dead in road? The poslsibility of losing another of our rescues in such a short period of time just has my head spinning.

IF there is a possibility of restoring her to health we welcome it. Vet told us this could go south in a hurry or she might even go on with managed care.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

No advice, just hugs. If this is her time, I hope it will be fast and with as little suffering as possible.

[Defying Logic]

I have a friend whose horse has liver problems. He does drink *a lot*. He got sick about five years. Vet gave him one month to live. They put him on a special diet, I will see if I can remember it all, low protein is a *must*.

His main feed is:
Horse Chow 100 (it is 10% protein)
Rice Bran
Corn (corn is important as it contains some amino acids that the liver is supposed to make, but when it fails, it doesn't)

For supplements he gets (not 100% sure on this):
Antibiotics 2 x a day (can't remember the type, use to be he was on two types, now he is down to one)
Milk Thistle
Vitamin E
U Guard (diet is hard on stomach)
Probiotics (since he is on antibiotics)
Daily Wormer (not liver related)
Joint supplements (not liver related)

He absolutely can not have alfalfa hay. He is doing amazing, vet thought even with this diet, he had a month, and here he is alive and healthy five years later. Earlier in the sickness, they did 2 biospies, both came back with results that he had no liver. His blood work came back from the vet hospital with the comment "How is this horse alive?" written on it. In order for the liver problems to show up in blood work, at least 70% of the liver has to of failed. He is definately the exception, not the rule. Recently, she tried to take him off the anitbiotics, and he started to get sick again, so he will probably have to be on them until the day he dies. So turn arounds are possible, but not easy, and certainly not always.

I will send my friend a link to this thread, so she can correct anything I got wrong. Good luck.

[SlimChance]

I am so sorry to hear about this. I'm the owner of the horse Defying Logic was talking about, and I hope some of this helps you! I know how hard this is and I hope everything works out well.

My horse is about 1300lbs and these are the doses that he gets.
5lbs Horse Chow #100 2x/day
1cup Rice Bran 2x/day
.5cup Crimped Corn 2x/day (used to be 1cup)
And at the beginning he was on Beet Pulp to decrease the protein intake


The supplements my vet has Slim (my horse) on:
Vitamin E 8000IU/day (kvvet.com)
Milk Thistle 1200mg (puritan.com)
The antibiotic is Metronidazole 20 pills of 500mg each twice a day
And a probiotic that I get through my vet, but he used to be on CRS Equine Gold Powder through ValleyVet

He's also on a couple of other supplements but they aren't liver related.
My vet has had success with this diet on a couple of horses with liver problems, and I hope that you can do this and that it works out! If you need any clarification on anything let me know!

[Weatherford]

Mine died. Back in the early days of the BB. His had been diagnosed before I bought him, but I wasn't told - and he remained undiagnosed after I had him, despite a colic where they did a liver biopsy. Since, to my knowlege, he had had no liver problems, the vets thought it was some kind of virus. Liver biopsy was OK... When he finally collapsed, they did another liver biopsy with the same results. It was only on surgery they discovered that the biopsied area (a very small area - same place for both surgeries) was the ONLY functioning place in his liver - the rest was yellow and hard. He'd been sick a long time. (I loffed this horse :cry:)

The prognosis isn't good, and if your rescue's finances aren't good enough, I can't see how you can justify spending extra money on a horse that isn't homeable, isn't easily rideable, and has liver disease and has probably had it for a while.

Personally, I think euthanasia should be seriously considered for this horse.

Just IMHO...

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Weatherford, I think this is one of those cases where you *know* the answer. You just are not ready to accept that you *know* this.

It has been especially hard for Gail, having lost two horses recently. You just don't want to have to accept the third.

[snkstacres]

Weatherford, please tell me, what do you feed your seniors? Important.

[Whoanellie]

Thanks to everyone for their input.
Defying Logic & Slim Chance

Thanks so much for the posts/the heads up on the Milk Thistle, etc. I have emailed two ladies that have supplied our rescue with herbs previously for their advice.

Patti at Meadow Sweet Herbs for Horses (http://meadowherbs.com/index.htm) and

Caron at Wintreats - Blue Ridge Distribution, Inc. (http://www.wintreats.org/)

If Wanda's condition continues to deteriorate and finances dictate euthanasia is the best course, at least she will know we cared. In this awful economy our funds have become quite limited and the majority of donations are used for feed (California hay prices), farrier. Emergency fund was recently diminished more than expected and we are having to tighten our belts......like everyone else.

The above links might be helpful to another horse at some time. Both ladies have been wonderful in helping us to help the TIER residents.

We have one horse that has horrible allergies. Has for quite some time. Although he has been a candiate for adoption, his allergy problem has made it hard to find a home with someone willing to spend the time and money on treatment. Especially as he is older. Caron at Blue Ridge Distribution provides us with a product called Immune Builder (http://www.wintreats.org/bdicart/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=29) that is the only product that has consistently helped with the allergy problem. Although there are times that Buck does get a Kenalog injection, but only 2 or 3 times at most instead of every 30 days during fly season. This is due to the Immune Builder. It has also been a wonderful product for helping starved/neglected horses that came to us.

OOPS.....I started rambling. Sorry. Anyway, I have contacted these two ladies and will wait to hear from them

[QUOTE=Weatherford: The prognosis isn't good, and if your rescue's finances aren't good enough, I can't see how you can justify spending extra money on a horse that isn't homeable, isn't easily rideable, and has liver disease and has probably had it for a while.

Personally, I think euthanasia should be seriously considered for this horse.

Just IMHO...[/QUOTE]

I hear you Weatherford. If there is a possibility of her becoming better, she deserves it. If finances dictate that the only help realistically available for Wanda is euthanasia.....it will be done.

snkstacres I am so sorry to hear of the plight of your horses. I do not think that Wanda's problems are feed related as we do not feed Triple Crown....too pricey out here.

Our pellets are KRUSE 60/40 - Alfalfa/grain/vitamin pellet recommended by our vet.

The feed that Wanda gets is a KRUSE 9% protein feed. The lowest protein feed I could find and she does eat this. She will eat Timothy & Bermuda hay. Just not in significant amounts.

[Moderator 1]

We moved your thread to Horse Care, where you might get some more feedback.

Best wishes,
Mod 1

[Pancakes]

While a liver biopsy and ultrasound may give you a more definite idea of what's going on and thus a timeline, if you're prepared to take it day by day (which it sounds like you are -- you seem to have a lot of patience and acceptance for these situations), then I'd just do that and save yourself the money.

[BornToRide]

Everything what Defying Logic said! The liver can heal if properly supported. I cannot understand why the vet did not have anything to offer!!

Any idea why her liver is acting up? Poisonous plants? Iiron overload? IR? Because if the underlying caused is not identified and eliminated, you may still lose this horse.

[Whoanellie]

Thank you all for your replies!!

ARGHHHHH! I just wrote the Great American Novel about all this as my computer went haywire and shut down. Anyway......

I read snkstacres accounting and could not help but notice the similarities as to what is going on with Wanda. Mod1 moved the thread to Horse Care so that I might get more responses. (Thanks Mod1 !!) I’ll post to both threads.
cloudyandcallie, Sorry for the delay in response!

SKA needs your help and input (old horses dying) ( http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=192713)

Bump for Lori. She's been going thru this with the vets helping her (costs $) for months......

Anyone having the same problems? PM Lori if you have. I PM'ed TIER who has had similar problems????, and haven't heard back yet.

Anyone heard of any recent (last fall to now) feed recalls or horses getting sick/dying in groups? I called my feed company and asked at the feed stores. Everyone please check and help Lori both with information and donations.

Bad times for rescues.

At first reading, I did not think there was a common denominator in feeds. We are in California and do not feed TC due to it costing $20+ per bag. Donations are at an all time low and we just can’t afford TC. But........In late November/early December we received a donation of 2 bags of TC that was fed to our Old Soldiers (Wanda, Jake, Honey, Dolly) with a few scoops going to some of the other residents as a “treat”. We don’t normally feed sweet feeds. The four horses mentioned received the bulk of the two bags and I did not save the packaging. Jake is gone-his CBC and chemistry did not indicate liver or kidney problems. He was euthanized due to damage to his colon (paralyzed) from an impaction. I cant’ help but wonder at the similarities in symptoms for Wanda.

........ The common denominator was all had either no teeth or very little and were dependant on complete feeds and beetpulp as the majority of there diet. If not all. I honestly believe it was caused by Purina Feeds but......... Sadly, I have no feed left from that time frame. I go through tons of feed week and we dont keep bags and tags lying around.

Sadly, nothing is going to bring back my friends. I was prepared for losing old folks but.......not in such a way for sure. Thanks for your caring.

snkstacres, I am so sorry for your plight. From experience, I know your heart is breaking and the frustration you are going through. I feel the same about Wanda........almost helpless!!

Although Wanda looks awful and has lost weight, she is bright eyed, interested in eating growing grass and likes to dash about in turnout. For the past 3 days she has eaten ALL her hay and her Kruse 9% feed. I don’t know if she is starting to recover, or if this is her last hurrah.

I contacted our vet for a copy of the bloodwork. Caron at BlueRidge Distribution is sending us some product to support Wanda’s liver/kidney, etc. function. We will see how it goes. If she begins to decline again, we will let her cross the Rainbow Bridge with dignity and respect.

As snkstacres said, “I was prepared for losing old folks but.......not in such a way for sure.”

[HorsesinHaiti]

Sunkist and TIER, praying for both of you.

Dawn