Help is this horse sound?? **Video added**

[horseluverz]

Hey I'm new to this forum, infact this is my first post, it was recommended I come here from another one of your members who is also a member on another forum anyways I'm looking for a critique of my horses movement on the lunge line, these video's were taken during his PPE. Thanks in advance:)
His name is Sean, he's an 18hh 6yr old Hannoverian.

[2enduraceriders]

When first starting off at the trot to the left....yes.

I am assuming he is well warmed up by the time we see him trotting in the third video.

Why not do a flexion test? Easy to do and will answer a lot of questions and all you need is a second p erson.

[BornToRide]

Something does not looks quite right to me behind. Could be developmental (he's still young), but could be more.

He looks tight in his back, also demostrated by tail swishing when asked for more and he looks out behind. With these long legs you should see some over tracking even without trying hard.

Could be joints, back issues or something like EPSM.

[Lieslot]

Okay, first off, I'm no expert whatsoever, just a fellow horseowner.
However I watched you ppe's and the other video of Sean you have up.
Especially when watching the other video I swear I thought I was watching my own 18hh+ WB on the lunge. Exact same hindend movement, canter burst & trot movement.

My thoughts, on the ppe, I would have preferred to see more forward, almost faster work, to be sure of his movement, but from what I saw, he looked sound, albeit I was questioning a slight stifle slip on the left hind (?).

My thoughts horse has a weak hind end, weakness could be something like BTR mentioned EPSM. I very seldom jump onto the EPSM bandwagon, but to me in this horse's his hindend movement makes me think it's a possibility. Else weak stifles that need to be built up.
I wished I had a video of my horse on the lunge, you'd be seeing the same canter departs. My horse is weak in the hind end (stifles & shivers).

What's he like under the saddle?

Personally from experience with a horse like this, especially his size, I would stop lunging all together (not saying this is what you do, as I don't know really). I very seldom lunge my big horses, unless they have achieved a great self-carriage in their bodies that was build up form work under the saddle. I'd rather ride them supportively under the saddle, so they can find the right balance and build up strength behind. Call it reverse training, first ridden balance then lunging. Those 18hh-ers are just too big to go round their axle finding a balance. He's still young too really.

I do wish to say, BEAUTIFULL horse, he's absolutely adorable, stunning looks, my kind of horse really. Tell me if you don't want him anymore ;) :D .

[Pancakes]

He looks sound to me at the trot (the canter really doesn't show anything significant), no obvious head bobs or weird hip hikes. Seeing him go in a straight line would really tell more. He looked like he wasn't really reaching under himself with his hind end really well, especially left hind on the inside of the circle. But as for soundness, yes, he looks sound. Without flexion tests and seeing him go in a straight line at the walk and trot away and towards, it is impossible to say for sure, but nothing obvious jumps out from the videos you've posted to indicate unsoundness.

[Parrotnutz]

Hey I'm new to this forum, infact this is my first post, it was recommended I come here from another one of your members who is also a member on another forum anyways I'm looking for a critique of my horses movement on the lunge line, these video's were taken during his PPE. Thanks in advance:)
His name is Sean, he's an 18hh 6yr old Hannoverian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l57ji3_KmGw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdnpYaaa_2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7airnkaVFRU

My first question: Did you purchase him? What did the vet say if this is a prepurchase exam?

I am not a vet....what raises flags for me....for a big horse he is very short strided in front....Persoannly I would want a horse that can move out with his front legs. This could be just his way of going or it also indicates a possible underlying problem

My friends warmblood moved like that.....perfect radiographs....MRI showed major problems After he went lame. Old navicular bursea problem that was most likely "masked"

[Lieslot]

I am not a vet....what raises flags for me....for a big horse he is very short strided in front Agree, I thought this was because the lunging area was rather small for this big guy, so he was holding back and couldn't move out on a small circle.

[Donkey]

The footing looks like it undulates a bit (there is a distinct track he's stepping in and out of), compensating for uneven terrain on such a small circle can contribute to subtle funky movement too.

[Filly85']

That horse is not tracking up underneath himself and is off in the right hind.

[Parrotnutz]

The footing looks like it undulates a bit (there is a distinct track he's stepping in and out of), compensating for uneven terrain on such a small circle can contribute to subtle funky movement too.

I went back to youtube and there is more video there...take a look at SEAN2....bigger arena, obvious lamness, to me....funky way of going, IMHO

[CoolMeadows]

He is not sound. I think he may be ok in one leg, otherwise he's off behind and in front. Beautiful horse though and lovely face.

[Pancakes]

I went back to youtube and there is more video there...take a look at SEAN2....bigger arena, obvious lamness, to me....funky way of going, IMHO

Yeah, that's a weird video. At first he looks LF lame, then he starts hopping with his LH -- wonder if he has stifle issues, or if he wants to canter and is holding back? Either way, not sound in that video.

[Parrotnutz]

Yeah, that's a weird video. At first he looks LF lame, then he starts hopping with his LH -- wonder if he has stifle issues, or if he wants to canter and is holding back? Either way, not sound in that video.

If you notice in all the videos the horse would rather canter than trot which I find interesting.

[Karma]

I do not think this horse looks sound! Albeit he is not head bobbing lame, he is not sound either. He is hurting somewhere and is moving pretty stiff in the videos. I would love to hear if the OP purchased the horse or what the vet said. I would be very surprised if something didn't come up on his PPE. I do not like the way he moves behind, especially in the SEAN2 video and I am not impressed with how he moves up front either.

[Pancakes]

If you notice in all the videos the horse would rather canter than trot which I find interesting.

yeah, I did notice that too -- that's kind of a red flag, don't you think?

Since the videos seem to be taken on different days, I wonder what has changed in between... He seems very reluctant to move under himself and use his hind end, and he drags his toes a lot. I also would be interested to hear what the PPE vet found. Too bad; he's a cutie!

[2 tbs]

He is very clearly off in the Sean2 video. It looks hind to me but it's hard to tell. He does have a bob up front but I can't see where on the front end that bob is coming from - seems he's compensating from behind but I'm not a vet so...

From all the videos it's also clear he doesn't want to track up. Even after he leaps and pounces around he's still not tracking up. He's very animated in the front without much shoulder movement. With his size and age that could very well attribute to the movement but it's unlikely that will change.

What also strikes me odd is the way he leaps and pounces. He hollows his back instead of arches his back. That could also be a size related thing but most horses, when fresh, really jump up and around not down and away like this guy seems to. It might just be him but with his overall movement it seems like it might start to tell a tale. Something is just NQR about his way of going-either through his back or from his hindend. I can't say he's lame but I can't say he's sound either.

He sure is quite a handsome handsome fellow though!!

[horseluverz]

First thank you for all your replies, here is the history I will do my best to keep it short.

Yes I purchased Sean back in November 08, the PPE came up clean and he was considered sound, the vet in so many words said that if he was looking to purchase him he would! So I bought him I fell in love with him, how can you not he's gorgeous and has the most amazing personality to go along with his looks.

Anyways the first 2 months were great! We were starting to figure each other out and were starting to jump 1.15/1.20's in our lessons, slowly I started noticing he was very stiff going to the left and very reluctant to bend, then when I started queing for the canter again to the left as I applied pressure with the outside leg he would start to side step away from my leg rather than picking up the canter which was never an issue before, at this point I was already starting to investigate as to what was going on, I had a saddle fitter out and she informed me that my saddle was horrendous on his back and didn't recommend using it, in the mean time I borrowed one while I had mine on order, anyways the very next lesson I had, he started refusing and thats not him he's a pretty honest guy, then spooking and bucking, that pretty much ended the lesson as something just didn't seem right, I had decided to quit riding him to let his back heal while my new saddle came in but would lunge him to keep him going, that's when I discovered this funny movement. I had the vets out immediately they couldn't pinpoint what was going on or where it was coming from, his movement points to hip/stifle, we blocked him and got as high as the pastern/fetlock area and started to see improvement, the final diagnosis was that he has 2 things going on in the same leg BL. Soft tissue injury in the fetlock which required some time off to heal, the funny movement he has only at the extended trot right before he picks up the canter they feel is what's called Upward Patella fixation which from what I've learned is very common in alot of sporthorses, it's a mechanical quirk rather than pain, however the only way for that to disappear is exercise so these 2 "injuries" are working against each other.

I had him fully xrayed from the top to the bottom on BL and BR. All xrays were clean. So treatment was 6 weeks rest with 10 days bute and check him every so often for improvement, I hand walk him daily for atleast 10-15 minutes over trot poles so that he's atleast using his hind end, he is definately showing improvement but something in me isn't sitting right and I feel there's something more going on. Its been recommended that he may need a chiro adjustment as his back may be out of whack from the ill fitting saddle:confused: Also it's been brought to my attention that this movement is very obvious in the PPE, so did the vet miss it?? Should I be going after the vet for signing off stating that Sean is sound when infact he's not?? I'm not sure where to go from hear and that's why I've come to you guys. Also I forget to mention that he was clean on all flexions at the PPE and I even have those on video too (thank god my sister taped everything for the future if your ever doing a PPE I highly recommend taking someone along to tape it) we did flexions again the other day o his BL and BR and again totally sound??

I'm really sorry this is so long

Thanks again:)

[silver2]

He's off in the right hind- he can't bend that hock.

I think everything else is just secondary.

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

Agree with those saying he's way off behind in Sean2. Because of the "pulley" arrangement of the hindleg ligaments, it can be very difficult to pinpoint where a soft tissue problem is. I'd start with ultrasound of the hocks, though, since he clearly doesn't want to bend the right one much. A sore right hock would explain the reluctance to go left at canter, and hock problems can often contribute to back problems.

I'm a big proponent of chiropractic, so I'd also be making an appointment with the most experienced one I could get to. I HIGHLY value www.judithshoemaker.com

The other thing that's in the back of my head is Shivers (a neuro condition with no known cause). My Han gelding has moments when he moves similarly to your guy, especially the "hoppy" gait. Do you ever see this guy hold a hind leg up and out away from the body, like it's temporarily stuck? Does he step oddly when you ask him to back?

As for the PPE, due to the size of the longe circle vs size of horse and uneven footing, your vet may have just felt those things contributed to a few odd moments. Or, he may have just missed it. It does look to me that the right hock was not flexing much in the first clip... you can see it trailing at the canter and the whole leg swings way out as he comes down to trot... again - maybe soundness, maybe big, young horse on small circle. In any case, the buyer makes the final purchase decision after weighing many factors. Unless the vet guaranteed the horse was going to be sound for the rest of his life, I don't think you can blame him.

[Pancakes]

Well, this is what I've been taught about PPEs: it's an assessment of the horse THAT DAY (or time the vet sees it). It's supposed to be objective (i.e. the vet is not supposed to tell you what to or not to do, but give you the findings and let you decide).
If, one the PPE, the radiographs came up clean and the flexion negative, then that was the finding on that day. If the horse was sound that day, then the PPE is clean. If the vet had no way of telling there would be any problem in the future based on the exam and radiographs, then there is nothing you can do to claim the vet should have known.

However, if the Sean2 video truly is from part of the PPE, I would question the validity of the PPE because it certainly seems like the horse is not trotting sound in the video. There is definitely a front left and hind left issue, and yeah, it does look like a little patellar upward fixation, but as I said before, it's hard to tell just based on that video. If the vet didn't say anything about the horse's way of going at the time that video was shot, then I'd be a little worried. The rest of the exam with flexions and radiographs should have been carried out with that lunge line jog in mind. Basically, everything should have been disclosed -- that he was off on the lunge line in the Sean2 video, but everything was clean, and he did have some times when he jogged soundly (the other videos showed him fine at times). I'm not sure you will actively have a case against the vet.

Honestly, where to go from here....? There are a few different directions but it mostly depends on what the horse is doing now and what you can afford to do. A bone scan could help pick up on a sacroiliac or hip problem and also give you a picture of what's going on in the back leg, which seems kind of muddled at this point. You could opt for an ultrasound of the back leg which could help you with soft tissue problems, but that won't tell you the whole story, and since he seems to have multiple problems in the leg, it might not show anything conclusive (if you can even determine where to look). If x-rays continue to be clean, a bone scan might be able to tell you more about what's going on.

Wish I could be of more help, it seems like a tricky situation.

[Filly85']

He's off in the right hind- he can't bend that hock.

I think everything else is just secondary.

I agree that it is the right hind. The pretty boy looks off in the left fore at the trot because it is actually the right hind that is making him short step.

I agree that everything else is just secondary because he is compensating for that right hind.

To the OP, you have a gorgeous horse. I hope everything turns out ok, and good luck with him!

[horseluverz]

Well, this is what I've been taught about PPEs: it's an assessment of the horse THAT DAY (or time the vet sees it). It's supposed to be objective (i.e. the vet is not supposed to tell you what to or not to do, but give you the findings and let you decide).
If, one the PPE, the radiographs came up clean and the flexion negative, then that was the finding on that day. If the horse was sound that day, then the PPE is clean. If the vet had no way of telling there would be any problem in the future based on the exam and radiographs, then there is nothing you can do to claim the vet should have known.

However, if the Sean2 video truly is from part of the PPE, I would question the validity of the PPE because it certainly seems like the horse is not trotting sound in the video. There is definitely a front left and hind left issue, and yeah, it does look like a little patellar upward fixation, but as I said before, it's hard to tell just based on that video. If the vet didn't say anything about the horse's way of going at the time that video was shot, then I'd be a little worried. The rest of the exam with flexions and radiographs should have been carried out with that lunge line jog in mind. Basically, everything should have been disclosed -- that he was off on the lunge line in the Sean2 video, but everything was clean, and he did have some times when he jogged soundly (the other videos showed him fine at times). I'm not sure you will actively have a case against the vet.

Honestly, where to go from here....? There are a few different directions but it mostly depends on what the horse is doing now and what you can afford to do. A bone scan could help pick up on a sacroiliac or hip problem and also give you a picture of what's going on in the back leg, which seems kind of muddled at this point. You could opt for an ultrasound of the back leg which could help you with soft tissue problems, but that won't tell you the whole story, and since he seems to have multiple problems in the leg, it might not show anything conclusive (if you can even determine where to look). If x-rays continue to be clean, a bone scan might be able to tell you more about what's going on.

Wish I could be of more help, it seems like a tricky situation.

Sean2 video was taken around Feb 9th that video has no ties to the PPE just that some of the movement he shows in the Sean2 video apprently can be seen in the PPE video (I personally can't see it however I don't have the trained eye to see those kinds of things) I'm some what butting heads with my husband right now as he doesn't want me to spend anymore money trying to investigate this because he agrees with the vets that this is all soft tissue injury maybe he slipped on the ice or twisted something playing in his paddock and time off is all he needs and will be good to go in another 3-4 weeks, I'm not convinced of that. The other issue is some are saying its his BL other saying BR, and some have stated there's something going on up front as well, he's been assessed twice by the vets and they say it's def. BL?? I just watched all the videos again and it was mentioned by another poster that he's not bending his right hock and I can definately see that now! Its frustrating as to why you guys can pick this up on video yet the vets aren't seeing it when there standing right in front of them!!:confused:

[horseluverz]

I agree that it is the right hind. The pretty boy looks off in the left fore at the trot because it is actually the right hind that is making him short step.

I agree that everything else is just secondary because he is compensating for that.

To the OP, you have a gorgeous horse. I hope everything turns out ok, and good luck with him!

Thank you I appreciate that, I to hope this can get resolved soon and move on I miss riding my guy:( I was really looking forward to show season this year:cry: Oh well as long as this isn't career altering and he will infact become 100% sound again that's all that really matters.

[Pancakes]

Sean2 video was taken around Feb 9th that video has no ties to the PPE just that some of the movement he shows in the Sean2 video apprently can be seen in the PPE video (I personally can't see it however I don't have the trained eye to see those kinds of things) I'm some what butting heads with my husband right now as he doesn't want me to spend anymore money trying to investigate this because he agrees with the vets that this is all soft tissue injury maybe he slipped on the ice or twisted something playing in his paddock and time off is all he needs and will be good to go in another 3-4 weeks, I'm not convinced of that. The other issue is some are saying its his BL other saying BR, and some have stated there's something going on up front as well, he's been assessed twice by the vets and they say it's def. BL?? I just watched all the videos again and it was mentioned by another poster that he's not bending his right hock and I can definately see that now! Its frustrating as to why you guys can pick this up on video yet the vets aren't seeing it when there standing right in front of them!!:confused:

Yeah, I definitely think that something changed between the 2 videos -- the Sean2 video horse is not the same one as in the PPE, and unfortunately, the vet based the PPE exam on the horse he saw *that* day, so that's what the recommendations were based on. (of course, unless the vet also saw the Sean2 video...then I don't know what to tell you)

Personally, based on the Sean2 video, there is definitely a head bob. Did the horse have a soft tissue injury out in the paddock which resolved by the time the PPE came? Who knows! No one here is qualified to say whether it's compensation from the hind or not -- that can only be determined if nerve/joint blocks are done. You can't draw that conclusion based on a video alone. I also fail to see how people can determine which is the primary and which is the secondary problem without performing an exam on the horse.

*I* agree it is LH (left hind). That's what I'm seeing on the video. Sure, the right one looks like it is stiffer and has less range of motion, but that is the definition of LH lameness -- greater range of motion in that hip and a shortened RH stride. Think about it -- when you have a sore leg and you're limping, which hip do you move more? The sore one -- you have to swing it more to move it because it hurts to step on it. The other leg's stride is going to seem shorter in comparison. The less range of motion in the RH hock *could* also be secondary to the LH lameness, which to me looks much more noticeable and worse...but then again who knows. Honestly, in the PPE videos, the range of motion looks the same in both hocks at a trot on the lunge line. Watch him trot in the Sean2 video -- he's dragging the LH toe consistently, but not the RH.

As for spending more money, you could wait and see if it simply is a soft tissue injury and give him some time off. Time off never hurt any horse (except in some cases, haha). But if he doesn't improve, maybe consider an ultrasound of the leg, or a bone scan.

[horseluverz]

Yeah, I definitely think that something changed between the 2 videos -- the Sean2 video horse is not the same one as in the PPE, and unfortunately, the vet based the PPE exam on the horse he saw *that* day, so that's what the recommendations were based on. (of course, unless the vet also saw the Sean2 video...then I don't know what to tell you)

Personally, based on the Sean2 video, there is definitely a head bob. Did the horse have a soft tissue injury out in the paddock which resolved by the time the PPE came? Who knows! No one here is qualified to say whether it's compensation from the hind or not -- that can only be determined if nerve/joint blocks are done. You can't draw that conclusion based on a video alone. I also fail to see how people can determine which is the primary and which is the secondary problem without performing an exam on the horse.

*I* agree it is LH (left hind). That's what I'm seeing on the video. Sure, the right one looks like it is stiffer and has less range of motion, but that is the definition of LH lameness -- greater range of motion in that hip and a shortened RH stride. Think about it -- when you have a sore leg and you're limping, which hip do you move more? The sore one -- you have to swing it more to move it because it hurts to step on it. The other leg's stride is going to seem shorter in comparison. The less range of motion in the RH hock *could* also be secondary to the LH lameness, which to me looks much more noticeable and worse...but then again who knows. Honestly, in the PPE videos, the range of motion looks the same in both hocks at a trot on the lunge line. Watch him trot in the Sean2 video -- he's dragging the LH toe consistently, but not the RH.

As for spending more money, you could wait and see if it simply is a soft tissue injury and give him some time off. Time off never hurt any horse (except in some cases, haha). But if he doesn't improve, maybe consider an ultrasound of the leg, or a bone scan.

I think you've gotten the time lines confused on the videos or I quit possibly confused you which is more likely:yes:
The PPE videos were taken November 2008
Then the Sean2 video was taken February 2009
Then there's 2 other videos simply labeled Sean they were taken just this past week. That's the time line so the vet who did the PPE never saw the Sean2 video as it was taken 3 months after the PPE. Hope that makes sense. I am seeing significant improvement as you can also see in the video's from Sean2 to Sean so maybe time off is helping. IMO if I injured my left foot I would be making short quick steps on the left not right is that what you were saying??:confused: I understood you said if you hurt your left foot you would be taking the shorter quicker steps with the right??

[Simkie]

I understood you said if you hurt your left foot you would be taking the shorter quicker steps with the right??

Think about what happens if you have a hurt left foot. You step down, and it hurts, to you try to unweight the leg and take the weight off it quickly. This can cause a shortened right step because you want to get the left foot off the ground as soon as possible. Your step with your left foot may be normal, if you have normal range of motion, because your weight is on your unhurt right foot.

Horses are more complicated because they have four limbs and there are two feet on the ground at the trot, but the principle is the same.

[Lieslot]

Well, I just looked at all videos again and especially the video where you are lunging him next to what looks like a small cavalletti and the Sean2 video and I can see a lot of things that looks so similar to what I've gone through with my big boy.

Definitely get a chiropractor out and he may need some adjustement right behind where the saddle sits, which can affect the hindleg motion. (didn't know that myself but my chiro showed me that). And when all soft tissue in the lower leg had time to heal, then see if you can rule out anything neurological, the hitch in the hind leg prior to canter could be neurological or mild stifle locking/slipping. I'm inclined to lean towards the LH being the problem leg, and what you see in the RH being a compensatory thing.

I wouldn't panic over it, but of course you'll have to keep looking into it. My horse had some serious funky movement on the lunge 2 years ago too. And there is improvement in your videos so, don't give up! :)

PS, perhaps a stupid question, but does he always insist on standing still to poo when actually being asked to work. Again arching his back to poo & work his hindend at the same time was impossible for my horse when he was at his worst. (issue was behind the saddle).
Again, your boy gorgeous, I'm in love ;)!

[Pancakes]

I think you've gotten the time lines confused on the videos or I quit possibly confused you which is more likely:yes:
The PPE videos were taken November 2008
Then the Sean2 video was taken February 2009
Then there's 2 other videos simply labeled Sean they were taken just this past week. That's the time line so the vet who did the PPE never saw the Sean2 video as it was taken 3 months after the PPE. Hope that makes sense. I am seeing significant improvement as you can also see in the video's from Sean2 to Sean so maybe time off is helping. IMO if I injured my left foot I would be making short quick steps on the left not right is that what you were saying??:confused: I understood you said if you hurt your left foot you would be taking the shorter quicker steps with the right??

Ahhh okay, yeah, I was confused as to which was more recent, and which was before. So yeah, it seems like he maybe did something to himself in the most recent Sean2 video. The other Sean video shows him better, so maybe time off *is* helping. Based on the PPE videos, I don't think the vet was wrong in his assessment of a sound horse, though. I don't think based on the clean flexions and radiographs there was any indication he would look like he does in the Sean2 video.

Try limping -- seriously, pretend your foot is killing you and try hobbling/running around and see what happens. It really does help to understand what's going on with them.

[horseluverz]

Well, I just looked at all videos again and especially the video where you are lunging him next to what looks like a small cavalletti and the Sean2 video and I can see a lot of things that looks so similar to what I've gone through with my big boy.

Definitely get a chiropractor out and he may need some adjustement right behind where the saddle sits, which can affect the hindleg motion. (didn't know that myself but my chiro showed me that). And when all soft tissue in the lower leg had time to heal, then see if you can rule out anything neurological, the hitch in the hind leg prior to canter could be neurological or mild stifle locking/slipping. I'm inclined to lean towards the LH being the problem leg, and what you see in the RH being a compensatory thing.

I wouldn't panic over it, but of course you'll have to keep looking into it. My horse had some serious funky movement on the lunge 2 years ago too. And there is improvement in your videos so, don't give up! :)

PS, perhaps a stupid question, but does he always insist on standing still to poo when actually being asked to work. Again arching his back to poo & work his hindend at the same time was impossible for my horse when he was at his worst. (issue was behind the saddle).
Again, your boy gorgeous, I'm in love ;)!

What was the outcome with your horse? Do you have video of his funky movement on the lunge line? I would love to see it.:yes:

Not a stupid question at all but even when were going undersaddle he will stop to take a poo as he really arches his back when he's doing it, this all started with the idea that it was an ill fitting saddle, I'm going to have the chiropractor out on Tuesday, I notice today even when I palpate his left butt cheek he's tender he immediately bows down, where he doesn't do that on the right side:confused:

Thanks so much

Ahhh okay, yeah, I was confused as to which was more recent, and which was before. So yeah, it seems like he maybe did something to himself in the most recent Sean2 video. The other Sean video shows him better, so maybe time off *is* helping. Based on the PPE videos, I don't think the vet was wrong in his assessment of a sound horse, though. I don't think based on the clean flexions and radiographs there was any indication he would look like he does in the Sean2 video.

Try limping -- seriously, pretend your foot is killing you and try hobbling/running around and see what happens. It really does help to understand what's going on with them.
LOL ok so I did exactly that limped across the floor (my husband definately thinks I've lost it) and your right you do tend to make the quick steps on the opposite foot:winkgrin:

[BornToRide]

Yes, I would defintely have bodywork done on him and also makes sure he does not suffer from possibly mild to moderate EPSM or selenium deficiency.

The way he's out behind when moving indicates some stiffness in the sacro-iliac joints, but that may not be the main issue either.

just watched all the videos again and it was mentioned by another poster that he's not bending his right hock and I can definately see that now! Its frustrating as to why you guys can pick this up on video yet the vets aren't seeing it when there standing right in front of them!!:confused:Not everyone has a good eye for this sort of thing

[horseluverz]

Yes, I would defintely have bodywork done on him and also makes sure he does not suffer from possibly mild to moderate EPSM or selenium deficiency.

Sorry what is EPSM?:confused:

[BornToRide]

EPSM or PSSM - Equine Polysacharide Storage Myopathy - where the horse tends to store too much sugar in the muscle tissue which can lead to muscle problems and stiffness.

[Parrotnutz]

I am not a Vet, nor do I play one on TV :D

I can only remark based on my experiences. If you ask 1000 different people you may get 1000 different answers and you *may* get a little nutz.
None of us posting on here can diagnose your horse. What I look for when looking at a horse........ Based on breed I expect to see certain movement. For me, an 18 hand warmblood *should* have very big movement....in front and back. I see neither in this handsome guy. But, I do not know his history, how much as been done with him etc.

At this point you may be having the Domino Effect....one soreness creates another because of compensating. His back is sore because of the saddle or because his hind end is sore, etc etc.

If it were me, I would take a deep breath, have the chiro stuff done and give him time. If it is a diagnosed soft tissue injury why are you lounging him? Was it to see if he was still off? If so a few times around would be enough.Time off is not going to kill him.....

Once a little time is given you can re-evalute. Do you have faith in your vets? If not a little rest and a second opinion or a trip to a good clinic is in order.

I don't know where you are located, but if we know maybe we can help you by recommending a good one if you are not satsified with the vet.

Unfortunately down time goes hand in hand with horse ownership.....it is the only sprot where 2 living beings compete together and injuries do happen, in or out of the ring. Try not to get too crazy as we cannot control the uncontrolable and you need a clear head to see this through. I have a feeling this may be a tough case.Down the line you may need more diagnotic testing like bone scans or MRI......is he insured with major medical?

[Parrotnutz]

EPSM or PSSM - Equine Polysacharide Storage Myopathy - where the horse tends to store too much sugar in the muscle tissue which can lead to muscle problems and stiffness.


Which can be diagnosed by a muscle biopsy and treated via diet.

[BornToRide]

Which can be diagnosed by a muscle biopsy and treated via diet. Or genetic testing via the University of Minnesota http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/Advances_in_PSSM.html :)

[Fharoah]

I hope everything resolves for you I no how frustrating NQR can be. I would agree left hind. Did he improve with nerve blocks at the fetlock? Did you try ulrasounding the fetlock

[horseluverz]

I am not a Vet, nor do I play one on TV :D

I can only remark based on my experiences. If you ask 1000 different people you may get 1000 different answers and you *may* get a little nutz.
None of us posting on here can diagnose your horse. What I look for when looking at a horse........ Based on breed I expect to see certain movement. For me, an 18 hand warmblood *should* have very big movement....in front and back. I see neither in this handsome guy. But, I do not know his history, how much as been done with him etc.

You are correct that I am getting 1000 different responses which is making me a little nutty:D however I'm learning alot as well so it's not necessarily a bad thing. He doesn't have much of a history he is turning 6 this year, the previous owners were consistantly doing 1.0 to 1.15 with him at home and occasionally some 1.20. Lots of flat that's really all I know he's been to all of I think 5 shows in his life. So pretty basic I don't think to strenuous and I've just maintained that since I've purchased him

At this point you may be having the Domino Effect....one soreness creates another because of compensating. His back is sore because of the saddle or because his hind end is sore, etc etc.

I totally agree which makes it difficult to pinpoint what's going on or what originally started all this?? Could an ill fitting saddle create a domino effect like this?

If it were me, I would take a deep breath, have the chiro stuff done and give him time. If it is a diagnosed soft tissue injury why are you lounging him? Was it to see if he was still off? If so a few times around would be enough.Time off is not going to kill him.....

I admit that I may be lounging him for too long but he's already been of for 4 weeks and the vet said it wouldn't do him any harm to check him periodically for changes

Once a little time is given you can re-evalute. Do you have faith in your vets? If not a little rest and a second opinion or a trip to a good clinic is in order.

I agree to the second opinion and I'm having that done on Tuesday as I'm not sure I have total faith in the first vet that originally came out

I don't know where you are located, but if we know maybe we can help you by recommending a good one if you are not satsified with the vet.

Calgary, Alberta

Unfortunately down time goes hand in hand with horse ownership.....it is the only sprot where 2 living beings compete together and injuries do happen, in or out of the ring. Try not to get too crazy as we cannot control the uncontrolable and you need a clear head to see this through. I have a feeling this may be a tough case.Down the line you may need more diagnotic testing like bone scans or MRI......is he insured with major medical?

No he is not insured:( and at this point no insurance company will insure him the way he is now

[equinelaw]

Not to confuse matters, but I see lameness everywhere. He did not look lame in the PPE to me.

In fact, and I never say this, if you don't want him anymore I'd take him in a heartbeat. If he is just injured he will get better and based on his PPE vids I'd be willing to feed that guy:)

[horseluverz]

Not to confuse matters, but I see lameness everywhere. He did not look lame in the PPE to me.

In fact, and I never say this, if you don't want him anymore I'd take him in a heartbeat. If he is just injured he will get better and based on his PPE vids I'd be willing to feed that guy:)

Aaw well thank you! That makes me feel better, and I think your right he is off everywhere which I think is from the domino affect which was mentioned earlier, If I decide to sell him I will let you know but don't be surprised if you never hear from me, I've only had him 4 months but he has a very special place in my heart:)

[Lieslot]

I pm'd you :).

[BornToRide]

He's a beautiful horse and deserves all the support you can give him. He definitely looks stuck in the back. Best wishes in finding the root cause!

[horseluverz]

He's a beautiful horse and deserves all the support you can give him. He definitely looks stuck in the back. Best wishes in finding the root cause!


Well as you can see it's been awhile since I've been on!! Thought I would come on and give an update :)

Sean is doing great! I had another vet out for a second opinion and he was diagnosed with UPF (Upward Patellar Fixation) which I've learned is acutally quit common, treatment was exercise, exercise and more exercise;) We have come along quit nicely!! We were even in our first show this past weekend and took home a 3rd in our speed round!! Were currently training at only 3'3 but hopefully we can start moving up later this year, I don't want to push him to hard as he's still young and growing, if you click on the links in the OP I have posted more vids of us jumping for anyone interested:)

Thanks again for all the help and tips.

[Lieslot]

That's great news. Thank you for updating us.
Glad to hear that just exercise did the trick.

Funnily enough since you started this thread back in Feb, my horse who I pm-ed you a video off has now also been diagnosed with IUFP. I knew I saw a similarity back then, just didn't know for sure what it was.

We're doing the exercise route too plus had his stifles injected.

Best of luck with your gorgeous boy :).

[Parrotnutz]

Well as you can see it's been awhile since I've been on!! Thought I would come on and give an update :)

Sean is doing great! I had another vet out for a second opinion and he was diagnosed with UPF (Upward Patellar Fixation) which I've learned is acutally quit common, treatment was exercise, exercise and more exercise;) We have come along quit nicely!! We were even in our first show this past weekend and took home a 3rd in our speed round!! Were currently training at only 3'3 but hopefully we can start moving up later this year, I don't want to push him to hard as he's still young and growing, if you click on the links in the OP I have posted more vids of us jumping for anyone interested:)

Thanks again for all the help and tips.


YEAH!!! Thanks for the update...and you are correct to go slow and get him strong behind before moving his jumping up....the bigger the horse the longer it seems to take! Going to go look at the vids now

[horseluverz]

That's great news. Thank you for updating us.
Glad to hear that just exercise did the trick.

Funnily enough since you started this thread back in Feb, my horse who I pm-ed you a video off has now also been diagnosed with IUFP. I knew I saw a similarity back then, just didn't know for sure what it was.

We're doing the exercise route too plus had his stifles injected.


Best of luck with your gorgeous boy :).

I'm glad I've got you Patsy!! Its nice to know someone else who knows something about this!!;)

YEAH!!! Thanks for the update...and you are correct to go slow and get him strong behind before moving his jumping up....the bigger the horse the longer it seems to take! Going to go look at the vids now

Aww thanks! Your 100% right, I'm in no hurry. I think for the next year I'm going to stick with 3'3 and slowly move up to 3'6 and stay there for the winter and see how things go.

[iluvponies]

I agree. The video Sean2 shows that something is wonky in his hind end.

Yeah, that's a weird video. At first he looks LF lame, then he starts hopping with his LH -- wonder if he has stifle issues, or if he wants to canter and is holding back? Either way, not sound in that video.

[horseluverz]

I agree. The video Sean2 shows that something is wonky in his hind end.

Yep he has UPF (upper patellar fixation):)