If organic hay was avaiable at the same cost--would you rather use that?

[Horsecrazy27]

I'm curious if any body out there is thinking organic for their horses like I am?

Organic or no?

[JB]

If it was the same cost, and was not suffering nutritionally due to some weird "I can't use chemical fertilizers so I won't use anything" mentality ;) Then absolutely I would buy it instead.

[Dirty Little Secret]

sure- so long as it was nutritionally good too

[ChocoMare]

I am very VERY fortunate to board at a private organic farm that also does hay, so I have it on hand all the time and, No, I don't pay more per bale than the average going rate.

If I didn't have that "gift" out the barn door, I wouldn't exactly make it a point of search for organic hay--although if I had the option to buy it versus chemically fertilized hay, I'd gladly do so....even pay a little more for it if needs be.

[Horsecrazy27]

My husband just got this job with this organic company (having to switch focus after building homes for 18 years and being laid off last October-- NO JOBS!! So, he is now going to become an expert in this field. :) No choice, but God works in mysterious ways!!!

I was stressing to him about going to hay growers-----but, wondering if that was ever a thought with other equine owners. :) The fertilizer that they have actually has 10 times the "elements" (90)--(my new education now is fertilizer--- NEVER WOULD OF THOUGHT that in a million years!!!) LOL Most are 7-10 elements, so should be healthier for our horses and is SO good for our soil and will actually benefit waters (ocean/streams/creeks/lakes/etc) if it were to run off into water supplies.

I had no idea how down our water life is in the Ocean from such run offs! So sad! It was kinda strange, my husband and I visited the Aquarium of the Pacific and learned about all of that run off damage, then heard back from this company this week. Funny how things work.

It should actually save farmers money too----it is just hard for some to change when they have had relationships with others---- or they are not into "change". So, maybe saving them money---would save US HORSE OWNERS MONEY!! AMEN!! LOL

I would love to have my horses on organic feed/life. I think my girlfriend was doing some kind of organic/natural wormer??? hmmm...will have to check back with her to see if that is true. She does organic for her family too--even used the cloth diapers and made her own baby food! I think she even makes her own organic/herb fly spray.....I found it worked, but I'd have to go out and do it around 10 times a day to keep it working. :(

So, great....keep the feed back coming.

[deltawave]

Two absolutely identical batches of hay, both priced the same? One grown organically and one not? Sure, I'd buy the organic. But that's very unlikely to happen in reality. :) Somewhere there's got to be a compromise, either in cost, distance to ship, quality of nutrients, or availability.

Natural is great and I'm all for it, but if my organic hay had to be shipped 2000 miles in a diesel-fume-belching truck, I'm not sure if the overall benefit to Mother Earth is actually there. :sigh:

[Desert Topaz]

I found local organic hay this year for the same price as other hay and was really excited, but upon inspection found it was full of weeds. It was "Certified Weed Free" but that just means it's free of noxious weeds, but can still be full of stuff you really don't want to be feeding your horse. So, as with any hay, inspect before you buy :)

[Twiliath]

There's a company in Canada that provides organic feed: www.organic-horse-feed.com. The oats are rather expensive and you have to order a whole pallet (one ton) at a time. Supposedly you don't have to feed as much.

I'm curious as to why people on this thread think that organic hay would have LESS nutrition than conventional hay?

Everyone really needs to read "The Omnivore's Dilemma." You'll get a real education regarding agribusiness.

Did you know that farming in the country uses up 20% of all the petroleum the country uses? If we want to be healthier and reduce oil consumption, we really need to go organic AND eat locally.

[Horsecrazy27]

What is really neat, as I learn, this has 90 elements, most CHEMICAL and other organic fertilizer has 10-17----then when the crop is pulled or cut, we take more of the earths elements back out with the product......this keeps putting it in and all of them! So, it would be more nutricious than what is out there now...... The weeds, this says the healtheir the plants, less weeds because of the stronger plants, but I'm sure there would be some----wonder how you can have best of both worlds? hmmm.

But, never thought of the fume theory.. ICK!

[JB]

I'm curious as to why people on this thread think that organic hay would have LESS nutrition than conventional hay?
I don't think anyone thinks that off the bat. I did imply that some folks might try to say the hay is organic because they don't use chemical fertilizers....or ANY fertilizer for that matter. A GOOD organic farmer will feed his crops properly, and it's reasonable to think he can do it with a better variety of nutrients with a better bioavailability. But just saying it's organic doesn't necessarily mean it's healthier.

Did you know that farming in the country uses up 20% of all the petroleum the country uses? If we want to be healthier and reduce oil consumption, we really need to go organic AND eat locally.
Except that means that I would never get to eat oranges or grapefruits or anything else that cannot live where there is anything more than a light freeze ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for supporting local farmers for products that can be grown here and are in season, but having produce trucked in is not necessarily a bad thing. I will not go half the year without eating fruit :)

[pintopiaffe]

IN A HEARTBEAT.

But, I'm with JB. It's still got to be *fertilized* and the soil needs to be fed/compensated for.

My hay guy is mostly organic... no chemicals, no pesticides. The fertilizer he uses is *mostly* composted cow manure from HIS cows. They do get vaccines and dewormer. So it's not totally organic. He occasionally--when the soil test/hay test indicates it's needed--uses chicken manure. That obviously has more antibiotics in it than his own compost. Still, it's better than some.

Having seen the difference organic/no additives/no preservatives can make for my dogs and for me, I am a fan. Unfortuantely, I'm also poor, (in money--rich in things that MATTER ;) ) so I do compromise. If I can get 80% organic for me, I'm happy. For the horses, I'm THRILLED with my hay guy, and use whole, plain grains. Not organic, but as little processing as possible at least... <shrugs>

[ChocoMare]

The organic hay grown on the farm sees organic fertilizer: fish emulsion. Also it's limed when needed (meaning when the extension office says "testing shows you need lime"). That's about it. Also after the last cut of the year (usually only two since we've been too dry to eek out a third cutting), the farm manager will mow once more and let it sit.

The hay is loffly.

[Boomer]

Did you know that farming in the country uses up 20% of all the petroleum the country uses? If we want to be healthier and reduce oil consumption, we really need to go organic AND eat locally.

What do you mean by "local"? Only foods gown in your city? State? Country?

I don't know that people would be willing to give up the food variety we have. I would miss bananas.. they aren't grown in MS. Neither are some of the veggies that are available at the grocery.

On organic hay - if the farmer can show that what they are doing is "organic" then, sure, I'd buy it. Might be willing to pay a little more for it as well.

[Thomas_1]

If it were the same price, then to be absolutely frank, I'd be absolutely and utterly suspicious.

Quite simply, it's just not possible to produce organic hay for the same price as non-organic.

Rather I think the question should be "would you be prepared to pay a premium price for good quality organic hay"

[Ajierene]

In looking at distance food travels - something I learned on the History Channel....a semi truck gets about 250 miles to the tank. A train can cover 250miles per gallon. That's right, per gallon. My actual numbers may be off a little (might have been 350), but if people were truck hay across country, I could understand the problem. If the hay growers could figure out how to use the rail system, then growing hay organically in an area of the country that has good soil, and offers great yield may be able to be sold for the same price as non-organic hay.

My main concern in seeing organic hay advertised at the same price would be weeds. One of the biggest things that chemicals are used for is weed prevention. Yes, you need fertilizer and fertilizer helps keep weeds at bay as well, but weed control is harder when growing organically.

If I were offered organic hay at the same price, I would question weed content of that hay.

[BornToRide]

You bet, as much as I can. Buy local and organic as much as possible.

[Katy Watts]

Quite simply, it's just not possible to produce organic hay for the same price as non-organic.

Rather I think the question should be "would you be prepared to pay a premium price for good quality organic hay"

Thomas,
Point well taken, but many people don't understand what 'good quality organic hay is'. "organic" is unfortunately used as a buzz word for marketing and is open to interpretation. Some farmers will call a crop organic, but it may mean that he was just too cheap to fertilize, so he got one cutting of grass hay that is 5 % protein. These hays tend to be very high in sugar because the crop was stunted and stressed for nutrients. In some places in the USA, there are these huge chicken factories, and farmers put chicken litter on hay fields willy nilly cause it's cheap. I saw one 'organic' grass hay test that showed extremely high levels of crude protein, and sure enough with additional testing ended up being toxic amounts of nitrate. Growing crops under certified organic standards is more expensive, but lots of 'generic organic' out there, too.
katy

[JB]

If the hay growers could figure out how to use the rail system, then growing hay organically in an area of the country that has good soil, and offers great yield may be able to be sold for the same price as non-organic hay.

Yes!

But first this country has to fix and expand the rail system.

My goodness, the savings are amazing. Not just in what you said about the cost of fuel, but this would allow more trucks to not travel entirely up and down the East Coast, or East Coast to West Coast, which (in addition to the fuel savings), would save an INCREDIBLE amount of wear on the highways. My word, the amount of truck traffic in I-81, there to avoid the insane amount of "normal" traffic on I-95, is amazing.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3914755] If the hay growers could figure out how to use the rail system, then growing hay organically in an area of the country that has good soil, and offers great yield may be able to be sold for the same price as non-organic hay.

ummm we do know how to use the railsystem...they sadly have proved themselves robber barons and bandits time and time again...

you don't want to know how much hay would cost shipped in on rail cars....

and to the OP, there is no way I would consider "organic" hay...for any reason

best

[Guilherme]

What do you mean by "local"? Only foods gown in your city? State? Country?

I don't know that people would be willing to give up the food variety we have. I would miss bananas.. they aren't grown in MS. Neither are some of the veggies that are available at the grocery.

On organic hay - if the farmer can show that what they are doing is "organic" then, sure, I'd buy it. Might be willing to pay a little more for it as well.

I guess it depends on whether the hay is "organic" because it's grown that way or "organic" because it meets some government definition. The Devil, here, is definitely in the "details."

You hear lots of "eat locally" but just excactly how are the denizens of NYC or Boston or Philly supposed to "eat locally"??? Anybody look at the area where these metropoli lay? Can the folks who are so "into" this spell "w-i-n-t-e-r"?

We move a lot of food around because the population is very concentrated in a few areas and production is often hundreds of miles away. Unless and until you break up population concentrations and send folks back to rural areas to live (kind of like the Khmer Rouge did in Cambodia) you're going to have truck a lot of food.

Of course maybe it could generate some interesting TV. Imagine the "Sex in the City" chix in Bismark. ;)

G.

P.S. It would definitely NOT be a reprise of "Green Acres"! :lol:

[MikeP]

I wouldn't mind buying the organic hay if it was of equal quality and price. However, I wouldn't pay one extra dollar or sacrifice one percent of TDN just because the "organic" claim was made for a particular source of hay.

[Thomas_1]

Organic status means something VERY specific.

It's NOT just a government definition. It's not something you can just lay claim to and to try to improve your marketing and sales. It doesn't just mean local. It doesn't just mean "no fertiliser". Indeed it doesn't even mean "no fertiliser".

To be certified as organic in the United Kingdom, a farm must first register with an organic certification organisation and enter a 2 year conversion period. For perennial crops this period may be extended to 3 years.

This time is to allow all traces of chemical pesticides and fungicides etc. to drain from the land and allow the soil to become more fertile whilst also allowing the farmer to adapt his farm management practices.

During this period there are regular inspections from the certifying body to ensure that all the necessary steps to conversion have been correctly employed. Only after the inspector is satisfied that the farmer has complied with all of the regulations is an organic certificate issued.

The farmer is then legally allowed to claim the crops grown on his land are 'certified organic', although annual inspections will continue to be made to ensure that standards are upheld.

Regulation 2092/91 requires that all approved certification bodies inspecting and certifying organic products must operate to EN45011 or its international equivalent ISO65. This European Norm or International Standard has established ‘Criteria for Bodies Operating Product Certification’ and specifies the procedures by which they must operate.

Organic farming is a modern, sustainable farming system which maintains the long-term fertility of the soil and uses less of the Earth's finite resources to produce.

Organic techniques have been developed from an understanding of and research into soil science, crop breeding, animal husbandry and ecology. The maintenance of soil fertility relies principally on the use of legumes, crop rotations, the application of composted animal manures and ground rock minerals. Weeds are controlled by mechanical methods while pests and diseases tend not to be a problem due to the inherent biodiversity in the system.

So it's artificial fertilisers, pesticides, growth regulators and livestock feed additives that are prohibited.

At the heart of organic farming is the requirement and desire to put back whatever is taken out of a natural resource (if not improve it in the process). This means that fields are not stripped of their nutrients in order to grow crops without them being put back by a natural process (such as the growing of clover, which fixes essential nitrogen back in the soil). You can continue to use organic fertilisers such as manure or seaweed. The manure you use though must come from stock that has been produced organically. So you can't just dump a load of cattle or chick crap on a field if those animals have been extensively factory reared and given medication etc.

Also, because harmful pesticides and fertilisers are routinely avoided, there is far less impact on the environment and water courses - which can have a long term cost to everyone if they are damaged.

The health and wellbeing of animals is a central part of organic husbandry. They must have a good life, with good living conditions, including access to the outside and being held at stocking densities which give them plenty of space to live comfortably and move around.

Also, animals are not given growth promoters and do not have any veterinary medicines used on them routinely. They are only treated with drugs when their health and welfare would be affected not to do so. When this happens, they must be withdrawn from the production system for, typically, three times longer than is the case in non-organic farming.

There is absolutely no reduction in quality with organic products and indeed in many cases there's an increase. e.g. in organic milk there's 70% more omega fatty acid. That plays an important role in maintaining a healthy heart, supple and flexible joints, healthy growth, strong bones and teeth and assists in the brain development of unborn children when drunk by pregnant women.

IMO anyone who actually has a choice and makes an active choice to go for non-organic is stark staring bonkers and clearly doesn't give a toss for the environment, animal welfare or the human state!

[Twisting]

No, I probably wouldn't buy organic. Organic is all cool and stuff, but it's not a realistic solution to our current environmental problems. While organic farming may prove to be sustainable it is not capable of producing food in the quantites needed to support the world's population. As for buying local? I live in Hawaii. Unless I want my horse to live off pineapples and macadamia nuts there is no local.

That and I've always just been a bit turned off by the whole "Natural is good, chemicals are bad" crowd they tend to make those blanket statements, and that's not always the case.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . and to the OP, there is no way I would consider "organic" hay...for any reason . . . .

WHY? I can think of reasons but I don't know if they are YOUR reasons. Obviously, as a hay producer, your input would be very important here!!

[Katy Watts]

To those of you who buy organic hay: Do you ask your grower if they are certified under the USDA National Organic Program? Do you ask how long they have been in the program?
Katy

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE]

ummm we do know how to use the railsystem...they sadly have proved themselves robber barons and bandits time and time again...

you don't want to know how much hay would cost shipped in on rail cars....

and to the OP, there is no way I would consider "organic" hay...for any reason

best

Can you expand on, as JB said - what needs to be fixed in the rail system?

[asanders]

I found local organic hay this year for the same price as other hay and was really excited, but upon inspection found it was full of weeds. It was "Certified Weed Free" but that just means it's free of noxious weeds, but can still be full of stuff you really don't want to be feeding your horse. So, as with any hay, inspect before you buy :)

...that would be the compromise DW mentioned.

Personnally, I just want good quality hay at a reasonable price. I bought a case of organic tomato sauce and one of organic tomato paste at Costco last week. They are a brand I buy normally, and they were cheaper than what I pay by the can at the store. The fact that they are organic doesn't bother me.

[Thomas_1]

WHY? I can think of reasons but I don't know if they are YOUR reasons. Obviously, as a hay producer, your input would be very important here!!

Well once again I'm gob-smacked by some of the responses on this Bulletin Board.

As a hay producer and farmer and horse owner/trainer, I find some folks ideas of what organic is and isn't as uninformed and full of phooey!

Fortunately away from cyber space in the rest of the real world the populace isn't quite so stupid and ignorant though. The market for organic produce is a rapidly growing market and a market that not only is playing it's part in terms of sustainability and environmental impact and awareness but there's also good margin.

Evalee as such I'd suggest you get on board if you're not already and don't worry too much about the odd silly posting here.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . Evalee as such I'd suggest you get on board if you're not already and don't worry too much about the odd silly posting here.

I would still like to know WHY Tamara in TN would not consider organic hay. I believe she might actually have some very good reasons so I would like to be educated. I'm not sure how that convinces you, Tomas_1, that I'm "not on board" and "worry[ing] too much about the odd silly posting here". I do not think Tamara's opinions are necessarily odd or silly & I would like to know more about them.

Actually, considering that EVERYTHING on earth (including humans & horses) is composed of CHEMICALS & ELEMENTS, I'm not sure how the fertilizer the original poster wrote about is different from regular fertilizer. I'd like to know that, too.

Scientifically, the word "organic" means nothing more (or less) than "containing carbon". I have thought quite a few posts on this discussion were "odd" or "silly" & they weren't Tamara's. Being a bit less regulated in the U.S. than the citizens of Britain, "organic" may be used more loosely here.

[BornToRide]

Keep in mind too that not all weeds = bad. Horses in the wild do not only eat grasses, they eat other plants as well.

Originally Posted by Thomas_1 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3916398#post3916398)
. . . . Evalee as such I'd suggest you get on board if you're not already and don't worry too much about the odd silly posting here.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:Yet for some reason I keep getting the impression that in fact YOU do......:D

[Thomas_1]

There's organisations for registering and endorsing organic status in the US same as here. If you are genuinely interested in producing organic hay and understanding the market then it would be a good idea to start there rather than asking one anonymous person on a bulletin board. They will be able to provide you with full details of what is and isn't permitted with regard to fertiliser and to explain what the differences are between organic fertilisers and chemical fertilisers.

Anyone who is insistent that they would never buy organic is clearly barking mad or misinformed.

There's no logical reason in the world to "never consider organic for any reason"

[Thomas_1]

Keep in mind too that not all weeds = bad. Horses in the wild do not only eat grasses, they eat other plants as well.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:Yet for some reason I keep getting the impression that in fact YOU do......:D
Don't be over confident with your impression. I'm not!

Neither am I ever surprised by what is in your mind. Some would say it's well cultivated ...... I say it's full of.... organic matter!

[Katy Watts]

Thomas,
Here in the US, many people follow our leaders in policy making. "Don't ask, don't tell". Avoids all those annoying disagreements in definition and personal preference. Just believe everything is OK, and everything will be OK.
Katy

[MikeP]

....There is absolutely no reduction in quality with organic products and indeed in many cases there's an increase. e.g. in organic milk there's 70% more omega fatty acid.

Or not:
"The FSA is right to be wary. The organic food industry has been claiming superior nutrition without evidence for nearly 100 years, and there is little in the new research to change that conclusion."

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1611/

[Guilherme]

Once upon a time all food was "organic" because chemicals had not yet been invented. Were people and animals necessarily healthier under such a mileau? Average life expectancies and the routine occurence of famines suggest the answer is "no."

Maybe "moderation" is better than "organic"???

G.

[Tamara in TN]

WHY? I can think of reasons but I don't know if they are YOUR reasons. Obviously, as a hay producer, your input would be very important here!!

the first reason is personal...I will support no industry in any form that says "normal farmers SUCK but we don't suck because we are organic"
EVERY BIT of their advertising starts with "everyone sucks but us"...I don't buy horses from those kind of people nor cabbage nor corn nor hay

secondarly,unlike Europe where the word might mean something...here I see it only as a way to seperate townies from their cash while bashing the people that actually <gasp> feed and worm and care for their animals...we sell hay to to some of the "organic" farms as yes some of our hay qualifies (but we don't advertise the fact ever)...

they however DISGUST me with the care they provide their livestock...falling well out of Proverbs 12:10 to make a buck..only one farm who keeps milking sheep does not make me ill to think about....

don't talk to me about the benefits of chemical free while your sketelal beef cattle nurse calves in Aug who still have their winter coats....;) don't brag about your grain free stunted lice covered baby pigs being healthy for me...I'd vomit in my mouth to think about them

and finally "organic" hay means generally that someone was too broke to fertilize or lime or spray for noxious weeds and has essentially raped his ground for that year...I'm not rewarding him with my money for strip mining his land....

no, "organic" peed in their own Wheaties for me a decade ago....sorry

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;3915884]

Can you expand on, as JB said - what needs to be fixed in the rail system?

you ship at the rails pleasure...AFTER a minimum of prob 20 some railcar loads purchased....they do not direct ship to your farm...in fact you can wait up to 6 weeks until they,maybe, get it to a spur near you and then when it finally shows up you still have to send trucks to pick it up...

we are 1.5 miles from a NS rail spur...we have been told four or five times that after we jump thru the hoops and after we buy 20 loads and after they decide to get it to Knoxville (75 miles away) we are more than welcome to pick it up there....

and they are about three times what a semi costs...so who wants to wait up to six weeks for hay dropped 100 miles away from you that still costs 3 times the shipping bill....

not us thank you

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3916140]Organic status means something VERY specific.

It's NOT just a government definition. It's not something you can just lay claim to and to try to improve your marketing and sales.


<snip a very good post>

yes but Thomas....it is only an advertising claim here...it works there in the UK and where my family lives near the German/Austrian border (Bad Aibling toward Salzburg)) because things are regulated enough there and the place is small enough that the regs can be supported with actual police work....

we are too big and too unregulated for it to mean anything tangible...everyone wants the advertising but no one wants the organic police on their place....it's totally different here...

best regards

[maggini]

I used to be right up there on the organic train. I admit that I still do occasionally buy some organic stuff, but by no means to I go out of my way to do so and I would NEVER waste the money on my horse to bother with certified organic hay when I know that I am already feeding him a safe, quality, young alfalfa/orchardgrass mix. And I don't think many hay producers intensively farm their hay crops beyond regular reseeding and reasonable fertilizing.

For anyone that does still believe that organic food is superior, I highly recommend that you read a book called Saving the Planet With Pesticides and Plastic: The Environmental Triumph of High-Yield Farming ( http://www.amazon.com/Saving-Planet-Pesticides-Plastic-Environmental/dp/1558130691 ). I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek title when I found it on my list of textbooks one semester at school. Low and behold, its title stays true to the focus of the book and it really brings up some valid points, especially on the topic of no-tillage agriculture. Moreover, I've read research articles that prove that organic farming is more wasteful because you get lower yields as a result of more weeds. I think its cool to look towards sustainable ways of growing our food, but I think that traditional methods of farming produce just as high of quality food and the waste involved in organic farming should be a pressing issue for those that think it's better for the human state (if we already have food so unevenly distributed, think about the widespread hunger problems that would arise if everything was grown organically).

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the better taste that some people claim for organic products is more of a placebo effect that comes as a result of paying more for the same product. And until some university prints a research article that falls into my hands about the added nutritional benefits of organic products and how they led to an increase in some measurable degree of performance (i.e. growth), I refuse to spend more money for my horse to eat organic.

And to the person who feeds less-processed feeds, the only thing you're doing is getting less nutrional bang for your buck. Further processing increases digestibility.

He occasionally--when the soil test/hay test indicates it's needed--uses chicken manure. That obviously has more antibiotics in it than his own compost. Still, it's better than some.

I'd also like to point out that when you buy chicken from the supermarket that says "hormone free, antibiotic free" you're not paying for anything special. Chickens aren't given hormones or antibiotics at sub-clinical, food-safe levels because the broiler breeders have perfected their strains through genetics and therefore producers do not need to feed hormones or antibiotics to stimulate growth. So when you say that chicken manure obviously has more antibiotics in it, that's probably not the case- in fact, it's probably antibiotic free, unless the producer's chickens were sick. Now, chicken manure probably does have more nitrogen in it because excreta becomes a mixture of poo and pee and in the chicken's cloaca and pee has more nitrogen.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . secondarly,unlike Europe where the word might mean something...here I see it only as a way to seperate townies from their cash while bashing the people that actually <gasp> feed and worm and care for their animals...we sell hay to to some of the "organic" farms as yes some of our hay qualifies (but we don't advertise the fact ever)...and finally "organic" hay means generally that someone was too broke to fertilize or lime or spray for noxious weeds and has essentially raped his ground for that year...I'm not rewarding him with my money for strip mining his land....

. . . . yes but Thomas....it is only an advertising claim here...we are too big and too unregulated for it to mean anything tangible...everyone wants the advertising but no one wants the organic police on their place....it's totally different here...

Thank you, Tamara. You, of course, know whereof you speak.

[Jenn2674]

Actually the US has just as strict rules regarding labeling something organic. That doesn't necessarily mean that people do not commit fraud though (calling it organic when it is not). That part is up to the consumer so as with everything we have to be careful. The problem we encounter is enforcement because the US is such a large country and there just isn't the staff to check out every single company. But that goes for ANY farming industry. The large scale operations tend to be inspected and safe but the smaller, local ones very often get missed. That is one big issue with buying "local" in many areas.

If someone is selling something and calling it organic and it isn't truly so, it needs to be reported. Might not do any good but that should at least be done.

If something is certified and labeled 100% organic and is of the same quality and price as an identical product that is not organic, then I would totally be for it. I would even pay a slightly higher price for it as well. Someone just saying their product is organic does not make it so though.

[county]

I agree with Tamara theres just to much lee way in advertising " organic " or for instance in the beef industry " grass fed " beef its the same type deal. People promote their beef as grass fed but that doesn't mean much under the rules it has to be fed a grass diet to 800 lbs after that they can pump as much corn and hormones into the animal they want. " Grass fed " and Grass Finished " beef are two totally different things. But you can get a huge variance in " grass finished " beef from what type grass, how well its been maintained, rainfall if its not irragated, and how good a job the producer does of grass rotation. Theres no gurantee one place to another will come close to the finished product.

[Tamara in TN]

Thank you, Tamara. You, of course, know whereof you speak.

I don't try to involve myself in discussions here I know nothing about...saddles,blankies,horse urns,new trailers,hunters ;),vet meds,drugs,how to manage on 3 acres,how to learn spanish to insult the help ;)how to second guess a farrier and how to deal with show season leases...

none of them do I normally interject on....but a thread that has my two bigger sore spots (the RR and "organic") wow...I might need to hit the tub after all this;)

farming I do know something about...and let me say,I am all for the world and system as Thomas describes it....

the land is like a horse in many ways...if you starve one down to a 2 or 3 body score...it takes twice as long to replace this as it did to starve her down...the land is no different...strip mine and rape her and you'll be sad for a long time...erode the ground and suck the nutrients out and you have screwed yourself...

in the drought year (07)farmers asked us what hay we had growing down on HWY 62 that was impervious to the drought and heat ?? ...it was the same timothy and orchardgrass we had had there for 8 years....

but it did not shrivel and die as everyone elses did after the april freeze as we fertilized it thru the winter to send the roots down deep,we watch the stubble height when we cut,we spray for the weeds that drain water away from our grasses(did you know most weeds take up 3 times the water from a ground that grasses do ??)...

for 8 years we had taken care of these fields...good care..."organic" and otherwise...whatever she needed we have done for her...missing vacations and fancy cars and fancy houses in the process to do it....but we did it...

and that year she remembered and took care of us...350 semi loads in five cuttings (8,400 tons) out of a place and in a time when most people got one cutting one time....

<deep exhale>

the land must be seen after the way she needs it...not to the specs of a group of marketeers..if that means chemical then that is what it means,if it means no till then that is what it means,if it means manure based fertilizers then that is what she needs...but in the end she decides and she tells you if you will only listen

best

[EqTrainer]

Brava, Tamara!

(and the crowd goes crazy...)

[county]

I agree Tamara the cheapest money I spend on forage each year is what I spend on our 180 acres of pastures and 100 acres of hay ground.

[Benson]

I'd also like to point out that when you buy chicken from the supermarket that says "hormone free, antibiotic free" you're not paying for anything special. Chickens aren't given hormones or antibiotics at sub-clinical, food-safe levels because the broiler breeders have perfected their strains through genetics and therefore producers do not need to feed hormones or antibiotics to stimulate growth. So when you say that chicken manure obviously has more antibiotics in it, that's probably not the case- in fact, it's probably antibiotic free, unless the producer's chickens were sick. Now, chicken manure probably does have more nitrogen in it because excreta becomes a mixture of poo and pee and in the chicken's cloaca and pee has more nitrogen.

Chickens are advertised as not getting hormones and antibiotics. They are advertised as getting "ionophores". Here is a definition of ionophores:
"The invention provides a liquid ionophore antibiotic composition for ruminants and poultry. The ionophore antibiotic is dissolved in a non-toxic water-soluble organic solvent and the resulting solution is admixed with a liquid feed, a liquid vitamin concentrate, or drinking water. These compositions remain substantially uniform on standing even for long periods. "

Basically, an ionophore is an antibiotic feed additive used to control disease and infection in poultry. They are not used in human use, thus don't have to be labelled as antibiotics. It's all marketing!

http://www.netvaxforpoultry.com/document_library/NE_Alternative_controls_GENERIC.html

[Horsecrazy27]

Chickens are advertised as not getting hormones and antibiotics. They are advertised as getting "ionophores". Here is a definition of ionophores:
"The invention provides a liquid ionophore antibiotic composition for ruminants and poultry. The ionophore antibiotic is dissolved in a non-toxic water-soluble organic solvent and the resulting solution is admixed with a liquid feed, a liquid vitamin concentrate, or drinking water. These compositions remain substantially uniform on standing even for long periods. "

Basically, an ionophore is an antibiotic feed additive used to control disease and infection in poultry. They are not used in human use, thus don't have to be labelled as antibiotics. It's all marketing!

http://www.netvaxforpoultry.com/document_library/NE_Alternative_controls_GENERIC.html

WOW...... I knew this existed, but it is tricky.

[tobruk]

We're a bit biased since we buy from from the Howards. You crumble it up, moisten it slightly with cream and put brown sugar and berries on it and have it for breakfast. It's that good. We've never had, or seen, any teeniny bit of bad hay off that farm. Expensive, no, not for what you get. There is no waste and the horses look great. If Tamara and Calvin start producing "organic" we'll buy it, not until then. Whatever they're doing presently is certainly working.

[Horsecrazy27]

So, those that use manure for fertilizer, is there concern for eccolie? (sp?) or other problems....is that why chemical fertilizers started getting popular?

I talked to a farmer (veggies) who uses chicken poop...... I'm learning so much, but never thought of that??

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . is there concern for eccolie? (sp?) . . . .

E. coli

The "E." is an abbreviation for "Escherichia". All organisms have a genus & species name (humans are "Homo sapiens"). The genus name is capitalized, the species name starts with a lower case letter. Once the name has been written out, scientists start abbreviating the genus name to one capital letter, followed by a period (for example, "E.") These are things you need to master if you are going to be promoting organic in a manner that will actually convince people to try it.

[Katy Watts]

Salmonella might be more of a concern in organic produce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/dining/04cert.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=173331

http://www.kirotv.com/health/18725536/detail.html

http://barfblog.foodsafety.ksu.edu/2009/02/articles/salmonella/organic-basil-contaminated-with-salmonella/

[Katy Watts]

Here's a real technical issue regarding chicken litter as fertilizer. You may be inoculating your soil with organisms selected for antibiotic resistance.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2709_132/ai_n6059996

[lalahartma1]

Yes, of course!

[texang73]

If it was the same cost, and was not suffering nutritionally due to some weird "I can't use chemical fertilizers so I won't use anything" mentality ;) Then absolutely I would buy it instead.

Ditto! :D

[Horsecrazy27]

E. coli

The "E." is an abbreviation for "Escherichia". All organisms have a genus & species name (humans are "Homo sapiens"). The genus name is capitalized, the species name starts with a lower case letter. Once the name has been written out, scientists start abbreviating the genus name to one capital letter, followed by a period (for example, "E.") These are things you need to master if you are going to be promoting organic in a manner that will actually convince people to try it.

Your right.....

[Horsecrazy27]

Salmonella might be more of a concern in organic produce.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/dining/04cert.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=173331

http://www.kirotv.com/health/18725536/detail.html

http://barfblog.foodsafety.ksu.edu/2009/02/articles/salmonella/organic-basil-contaminated-with-salmonella/


I have heard that the use of manure could be a cause for this..... I know many of the farmers use that here in AZ different times of the year.