Denny...the skinny on those old horses of yours

[snoopy]

I have spoken to some riders of yester year about their incredible horses and asked if they think that those horses would have been successful on today's courses. I was suprised by some of their candid responses.

So, talk to us about Victor Dakin, Cor Buff, et al. Do you think that they would have had what it takes to succeed today? Tell us about temperment, breeding, ability.


Or for any of those who competed back "when" did those horses have what it takes to get to the same level today....would you have even LOOKED at buying those horses today?

[denny]

York would have been good today. He had all the pieces.

Victor was an attack machine, could do an 18 mile 2nd day, a 5 1/2 min steeplechase, but not good enough for today`s dressage.

Farley Rob Roy was a grandson of Bonne Nuit, you couldn`t build a fence in eventing he couldn`t jump, but not a fast enough sprinter or fancy enough in dressage for today.

Epic Win was a nice horse. I had him when I was in my 50s, I`d have been interested to see how he`d have done if I`d been 35 and more aggressive, hungrier.

I had 14 advanced horses over about 30 years at that level, so I`ll think some more, but mainly, no, not appropriate for the complexities of today`s dressage, but long distance, tough old warrior types, mainly.

[snoopy]

York would have been good today. He had all the pieces.

Victor was an attack machine, could do an 18 mile 2nd day, a 5 1/2 min steeplechase, but not good enough for today`s dressage.

Farley Rob Roy was a grandson of Bonne Nuit, you couldn`t build a fence in eventing he couldn`t jump, but not a fast enough sprinter or fancy enough in dressage for today.

Epic Win was a nice horse. I had him when I was in my 50s, I`d have been interested to see how he`d have done if I`d been 35 and more aggressive, hungrier.

I had 14 advanced horses over about 30 years at that level, so I`ll think some more, but mainly, no, not appropriate for the complexities of today`s dressage, but long distance, tough old warrior types, mainly.



14!!! 14 advanced horses folks! This man is THE business. Yes it would seem that most who I talked to said the same thing about the dressage phase. Do you think they would have trouble or are you basing that on the primitive dressage skills we AS RIDERS had back then:lol:
I often wonder about those horses and if the demands of dressage would have been truely a problem for them or us!

[denny]

Mark Todd had 40 something advanced horses, Bruce maybe more. Of course, other people bought many of those.

But, regarding dressage:
1. We (not all but most) were pretty primitive in our skill sets 25-40 years ago, compared to now, AND---

2.The horses HAD to be able to get the 15 plus miles on day 2, so we started with that, and added as much "dressage talent" on top of that as we could afford, which in my case wasn`t much.

[SevenDogs]

2.The horses HAD to be able to get the 15 plus miles on day 2, so we started with that, and added as much "dressage talent" on top of that as we could afford, which in my case wasn`t much.

.... which was the HEART OF THE SPORT, until recently. Even a lowly lower level rider like me knows that, and is saddened by the shift.:(

[Tasker]

Hey Denny! Can you please tell me a bit about the mare With Rhythm that you used to event? We have some of her descendants her on the farm...long story about how they got here but I'd love to have some more background on their ancestress. :)

TIA.

[Gnep]

I think that is the biggest change, we did not have time to learn the dressage skills and our horses were and had to be galloping jumping machines. I feel just the strides size would make it rather difficult for them in the jump turn jump inviroment of today, they would probably not find their stride, were todays horses seam to have the problem on the gallops and the jumping out of full stride

[Romany]

Primitive in not-as-technical, not as knowledgeable about the minutae of biomechanics, that sort of thing?

OTOH, thinking back to the earlier days of eventing - Richard Meade, Mary G-W, etc, the whole approach to sporting life was perhaps less technical, more genteel yet seat-of-yer-pants, perhaps, whereas nowadays, the way the money thing works, riders who want to get anywhere do have to have a more professional, analytical approach, perhaps?

Those earlier horses were substantially substantial TBs on the whole, weren't they - quite different from today's more spindly TBs, but not as chunky as WBs, either.

Good topic, snoopy. I'll have to go dig out my antique Pony Club annuals and admire those greats once more.

[denny]

Tasker, you have a pm.

[Gnep]

Denny a question,
if you compare todays eventers that you ride to yesterdays, don't you think they are more flexible and softer in their gaits ?

[snoopy]

Denny a question,
if you compare todays eventers that you ride to yesterdays, don't you think they are more flexible and softer in their gaits ?


I would agree with that....the demands of dressage have done just that. Some I sat on 100 years ago were like riding an ironing board...stiff and gaits like a jack hammer. But run for their lives the next day and still pulling like a train at the end of it all.

[Gnep]

thanks Snoopy, that is what I remembert, the horse my father bred would beat you to death during dressage, but they could gallop. My knuckles are still dragging the ground.
I still have one horse out of that program, just a natural galloper,so enjoyable, but quiet a ship to stear, stiff as a board. I post her as long as possible for dressage warm up, my back got spoiled by my other Woman.

[Bobthehorse]

I think that is the biggest change, we did not have time to learn the dressage skills and our horses were and had to be galloping jumping machines. I feel just the strides size would make it rather difficult for them in the jump turn jump inviroment of today, they would probably not find their stride, were todays horses seam to have the problem on the gallops and the jumping out of full stride

The best ones now have "accordion canters" as my coach says. Can go the big easy gallop strides, but can also compress and bounce like a rubber ball. Im sure there were horses 20 years ago like this as well, I have no doubt they have always been desirable creatures to have.

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

I think I'm the only one that is thrilled that the endurance aspect has faded and the anti has been upped in dressage!:yes:

[AlterStrength]

Shrunk - Sorry you feel that way... but FWIW - be careful before you start a train wreck! ;)

[Toadie's mom]

Shrunk - Sorry you feel that way... but FWIW - be careful before you start a train wreck! ;)

thank you AlterStrength (I'm sitting on my hands).

Anway....Denny- I saw a horse last weekend you probably know...Stina. Happy to report (tell Julia if you ever talk to her) Stina has a wonderful home with a very deserving junior. I've already put the word in that should he go crazy (the new owner) I will gladly take her off their hands :D

[denny]

One MAJOR difference between the 60s even through the early 80s was the absence of major money buying fancy horses.

I remember how impressed we all were before the 1976 Olympics that Mike Plumb had TWO (count them, TWO) advanced horses in his string, Good Mixture and Better and Better.

It was so hard to get ONE.

Sure, there were "rich kids", back then, and a few with sponsors, but the very high quality stock we take for granted today really started when a few savvy riders figured out the sponsorship game, and started to up the ante with better quality horses.

By "better quality", I mean horses which had all the pieces, good in dressage, with a soft brain (not tense or hot), lovely gaits, but also fast enough to do at least a 4 1/2 min `chase, enough endurance to get about 15 miles, and enough jump to keep up the rails on day 3.

I think that horses for the new format will wind up being even more expensive, because we are beginning to compete with the Hunter-Jumper industry, these days, for really superior animals, and that takes real money.

[2ndyrgal]

With my most obviously "more suitable for a field hunter/eventer" horse, we might be competing with them for sponsor money, (maybe they have better tea parties) but I don't think you'd be competing for horses. Certainly, there are some high quality individual horses, but, look around the rings and count the number of horses with bar shoes in front, even in the big $$$$$ big time divisions. Not something I want to ride down a drop on Saturday. Europe is selling Americans that want show hunters some very pretty horses, who will excell in the show ring. They are selling them the ones that show little propensity for upper level dressage, and have a nice jump, but won't make it in the big money jumpers. Very suitable to monotonosly canter around over the same eight fences every weekend. I showed my SPC horse in front of Ron Beachy, who is mature enough to know what a real field hunter looks like, and we did get a ribbon. He saw me in the lunch line and said "I bet he's a blast to hunt, you two look like you are headed out to the meet". Nicest compliment I ever received. I'm starting at the bottom rungs in eventing and due to age and miles, will probably stay there, but... I'm still always going to look for the horse that might not be in first place on dressage day, but has enough guts to get me home safely every time. He has a fifth leg, common sense and as much awareness of distance and timing as any horse I've ever ridden. Maybe if they made dressage be the last thing you rode, and the judge had a chance to see that he really CAN get up in the bridle and use himself from behind we'd have a chance of improving our scores. Show hunters has really truly turned into the land of who can spend more dosh, I'd hate to see eventing get that way, xc is the great equalizer in my mind.

[denny]

Not thinking so much about competing with the show hunter crowd for stock, as with the show jumper crowd.

My reasoning:

What do we need for modern non-3-day eventing? By non-3-day, I mean no roads and tracks and steeplechase.

We need a horse which can excel in dressage, ie, has fancy gaits, and a quiet enough mind to let you "get at" those gaits, and tolerate flying changes.

Also, can sprint between complexes, set up, jump technical questions, sprint to the next complex, repeat process.

Also, can jump a track up to 4`3, while tired, leave the rails up.


A very special horse to have all that, no? Special as in rare, so the Supply/Demand ratio kicks in, and, VOILA, expensive.

[snoopy]

Not thinking so much about competing with the show hunter crowd for stock, as with the show jumper crowd.

My reasoning:

What do we need for modern non-3-day eventing? By non-3-day, I mean no roads and tracks and steeplechase.

We need a horse which can excel in dressage, ie, has fancy gaits, and a quiet enough mind to let you "get at" those gaits, and tolerate flying changes.

Also, can sprint between complexes, set up, jump technical questions, sprint to the next complex, repeat process.

Also, can jump a track up to 4`3, while tired, leave the rails up.


A very special horse to have all that, no? Special as in rare, so the Supply/Demand ratio kicks in, and, VOILA, expensive.



:yes: Would be interested to find out what the average TB cost back then and what it cost to get him to advanced level VS today Andrew Nicholson maintains that HE can take most decent TB's and get them to the advanced level. He does not buy expensive horses as he says there is no need to. Now whether these horses are competitive at the level, he did not say.

So do you think we have unfairly written of the TB in favour of the WB/TB crosess in the name of fashion. I see some pretty fancy TB's out these that look to hold all the pieces. Not all WB's are good movers...not all are good jumpers...not all have the right pieces.
I am not a TB fan simply because I cannot ride them. My boney ass has sparks in it and I have never been able to mesh with the breed. BUT are we doing a disservice to the breed simply because we are all under the impression that the TB cannot handle the new format?!
Are we infact pricing OURSELVES out of good horseflesh because of breed perceptioon and fashion.

[denny]

Snoopy, thank heavens we don`t have to engage in it (see above), because folks with big wallets are scouring the globe to find those special horses.

I think that SOME tbs can do it, Ditto Irish crosses, Holsteiner crosses, all the varients of Mix`n`Match, but to find that rare Faberge Egg, ah, that`s the trick.

Especially in the absence of either family or sponsor $$$$

[Ajierene]

Denny - you stated in a previous thread that most eventers 'back in the day' did not use full thoroughbreds as a rule, but preferred a cross. How much Thoroughbred to throw into that cross depended on the preferences of the rider.

Was there a breeding program specifically for the event horse? I know there was a breeding program for the cavalry, but I don't know the specifics of when they started and how far along they got before the mounted cavalry was disbanded.

Basically I am wondering your opinion on how much interest in the sport on the civilian side effected breeders in the US, especially after professionals were allowed into the Olympics and how that has changed what types of horses are used today.

[snoopy]

Okay I would like to think THIS horse had all the pieces but my first ADV horse was bought off the track in Northampton MA in a claiming race for $2,500. He was big boned, he moved well, and had a great brain.

There were other horses that reached INT level but were sold before going any further....but NOT one of those horses cost me more then 3000.00GBP, why, because I refused to spend any more money then that.

I now have a VERY nice VERY well bred ISH....not absolutely convinced he has all the pieces...or maybe not convinced "I" have all the pieces now:lol:, cost 2500.00GBP. Okay the owners did not know WHAT they had in the back yard went I stumbled upon this horse but my feeling is that one need not always have to pay top dollar. Good comfirmation, a good brain, and some talent....with good training you would be surprised at what one can achieve.


I think we are writing off to many horses because thay are not the flavour of the month. Folks I believe WE are the ones driving the price up because we have discounted some very good and inexpensive horse flesh.


A little secret here, many horses that you see running at ADV level in the UK....common as muck!! Just good training, good management. The illusion complete. The perception from those here in america is that they are some wonder horses whose original price tag would be beyond them. Not the case. Trust me!!

I believe our snobbery is pushing prices to impossible levels for most people.

[NewbieEventer]

Interesting topic. I'm not familiar with hunters (heck, can't claim to be familiar with anything being a "newbie")...but don't hunter horses have some of the best/most correct jumping techniques? I would think that would make them quite safe cross country??

Also, what are bar shoes? What type of conformation fault would necessitate these?

[Bobthehorse]

Show hunters has really truly turned into the land of who can spend more dosh, I'd hate to see eventing get that way, xc is the great equalizer in my mind.

I see it going that way, unfortunately. But I agree with you.

[Bobthehorse]

I think we are writing off to many horses because thay are not the flavour of the month. Folks I believe WE are the ones driving the price up because we have discounted some very good and inexpensive horse flesh.


A little secret here, many horses that you see running at ADV level in the UK....common as muck!! Just good training, good management. The illusion complete. The perception from those here in america is that they are some wonder horses whose original price tag would be beyond them. Not the case. Trust me!!

I believe our snobbery is pushing prices to impossible levels for most people.

Completely agree!

[Bobthehorse]

I think I'm the only one that is thrilled that the endurance aspect has faded and the anti has been upped in dressage!:yes:

Then why not just show dressage? How can you be pleased that the heart has faded from the sport?

[NewbieEventer]

I just read Jimmy Wofford's article on "Eventing Lives in the Balance". I think it's been mentioned here before, but can't find the thread. Makes me wonder if the "initiative" isn't being bred out of horses too...in addition to the higher-level dressage training that the article talks about. A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on producing horses that are eager to please and easy to train...doesn't that somewhat diminish initiative as well?

[Janet]

Interesting topic. I'm not familiar with hunters (heck, can't claim to be familiar with anything being a "newbie")...but don't hunter horses have some of the best/most correct jumping techniques? I would think that would make them quite safe cross country??
Short answer-

The jumping technique that produces a beuatiful jump over a show hunter course - jumps that are all either verticals or oxers, on relatively flat ground, and relatively good consistent footing at a relatively slow speed- do not necessarily produce a safe jump at speed, on a steep up or down slope, over drops and banks, ino water, etc.

But I think it is the "business side" of show hunters that people don't want to see take over eventing, not the jumping form.

[SevenDogs]

:yes: Would be interested to find out what the average TB cost back then and what it cost to get him to advanced level VS today Andrew Nicholson maintains that HE can take most decent TB's and get them to the advanced level. He does not buy expensive horses as he says there is no need to. Now whether these horses are competitive at the level, he did not say.

So do you think we have unfairly written of the TB in favour of the WB/TB crosess in the name of fashion. I see some pretty fancy TB's out these that look to hold all the pieces. Not all WB's are good movers...not all are good jumpers...not all have the right pieces.
I am not a TB fan simply because I cannot ride them. My boney ass has sparks in it and I have never been able to mesh with the breed. BUT are we doing a disservice to the breed simply because we are all under the impression that the TB cannot handle the new format?!
Are we infact pricing OURSELVES out of good horseflesh because of breed perceptioon and fashion.

YUP! :yes:

[eventrider]

I agree with Denny and Snoopy both! I do think it takes a different kind of horse for modern eventing. The horse has to be a much nicer, very differently trained horse (which means the brain and balance). My first advanced and upper level horses would never be able to compete in the top of the sport today. They were not soft and adjustable enough. BUT, that said, I still own OTTB's, and they fit the bill. For example, this is a new horse off the Charlestown track : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5b7aQoBgRU
He has all the pieces I am looking for, and he was not an exorbitant amount of money. I have another young one that is from the same place that hopefully will also be a very nice upper level horse. I think we do overlook many nice OTTB's....whether that is because we don't have the eye for what the horse will become, or because we don't have the contacts, or because they are not that common I don't know.

Christan

[denny]

The harsh reality about thoroughbreds is that at least 90-95% are bred to race, and go into race training. Those who withstand training, and show promise, then race.

Which, as anyone who has been around race horses knows, is very tough on young horses, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

So by the time most of us get to evaluate young tbs, many of them are damaged goods, one way or another.

So, yes it`s a source, but a far from ideal source. So often the best athletes are the ones who could run. So they did run, and often did so until they no longer could.

Like it or not, this is the reality.

[TKR]

Yes, there is the paradox -- those who ride or like the Thoroughbred go for the OTTB instead of seeking a Thoroughbred bred for the sport. Which is why so many of us who love and breed the Thoroughbred for sport don't have the market to continue.
PennyG

[ASB Stars]

This is a bit OT, but I feel your pain.

When we look for ASB sport horses, the ones who have already been put through the show horse routine- while they often can be re-schooled- are generally much more difficult to "convert" to sport horse work.

However, just as with young TBs- the maximum value is in the show ring (or race track), for those breeders, so they are going to try that route, if it is at all possible, first.

Sad, but true!

[Weatherford]

I think I'm the only one that is thrilled that the endurance aspect has faded and the anti has been upped in dressage!:yes:

Yup, you are! :(

:lol:

[eventrider]

To the breeders chiming in here, I have a question. I have horses from different sources. Two are purpose bred from the breeders, who have exceptional programs and are exceptional horses. One is a pony and the other is TB/Irish. The other two are OTTB's who are also exceptional, and were found through a trusted contact who finds horses for people as her job. She spends all day looking at horses; she goes to the track, she goes to private farms, she goes to shows, basically anytime anyone has a horse for sale she goes and looks at it. I have purchased many horses through her, some from breeders, some from multiple other sources. She has no partiality toward where the horse comes from, just that it is a nice horse that is sound with a good brain, and suited to the rider. So my question is, do you think the problem is that purpose bred horses are overlooked, or that 1: many breeders don't have the contacts OR don't get their horses seen, or 2: that like all horses, some are exceptional and some are nice and some are average, but we are trying to push them all as exceptional and don't have an outlet for all of them?
Are we breeding for todays eventing demands, and if so, what breed or cross is being bred? Thanks for all the imput. It is clear, I think, that we need a horse that is different from the past.

Christan

[denny]

I`ve been on the backside of race tracks, as many of us have, and seen heads "to die for" looking out over those doors.

Long snakey necks, breedy, classic heads, big eyes, class, class, class.

Then they come out of those stalls.

Bowed tendons, big knees, osselets, bone chips, suspensories, the whole sad wreckage, and they`re usually only 3-4 years old.

But we can`t afford them "before", because we can`t begin to compete economically with race horse buyers. Again, hard reality.

[Weatherford]

Ah, Denny, that is why the bred for hunt racing/steeplechasing horses here in Ireland are such incredible finds for eventing. Or the mares are bred to ISH for eventing. The 'chasing horses, like the ISHs tend to be left out in the fields 'til they are three or four. Then you just have to tame them - feed works for that pretty well ;)

It is simply too expensive to get these back to the US, however. We need to fins a plane and start a co-op... ;)

[eventrider]

Thanks for your post Denny! I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to the race industry. You have obviously been very successful in breeding for the sport (whatever it might be at the time). As a breeder, you cannot afford to reproduce the horses you are talking about on the track, because I am sure the stud fees are astronomical. So what are you and other breeders looking for in breeding the modern day event horse? Has the goal changed from the past and if so, how to you get what you are looking for?

Christan

[2ndyrgal]

If you take the time, and are willing to beat the bushes and make the contacts, you can find a TB that has nice conformation, and just does not care if he pokes his nose in front or not. They are out there, and you will be bidding against the hunter trainer who's figured it out. Back in the dark ages, you could steal one. Now, not so much, but, you can get a nicely put together horse, that's already been under tack and knows left, right, go and whoa for 3-4K.

[unclewiggly]

"Which, as anyone who has been around race horses knows, is very tough on young horses, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

So by the time most of us get to evaluate young tbs, many of them are damaged goods, one way or another." Denny

I wish to weigh in as I buy and sell OTTB's almost exclusively and have about a 99.9% full vetting ratio going right now.Digitals, scopes teh works 38 last count in 2 years.
And several have been sold to be eventers. I have one little guy right now w/ about 35 starts and his legs are cleaner than some horses who never raced. And he has the mind and gaits for just about any discipline.

Just got an 8yr old in w/ 60+ starts and he has the lightest touch to the ground just pats it and took to jumps w/ bold brave ridability, yet if you saw him in a stall @ the track you would have run in the opposite direction, very hot and unappeiling behavior. 5 days off track and he is like a WOW.
His legs are spotless and he the heart and mind to go one.
More so than some of the horses I see offered as SportsHorse crosses.

Its not the breeding its the conformation, way horse uses the tools he's got.
An athletic horse who starts out w/ all the parts moving in sync and has a brain can be any color or any breed. But OTTB's are so plentyful, affordable, have the wind and cardio system as standard, and the grace for dressage.
trouble is most people can't sort out who has the brains or come w/ pre concieved notion horse will be to hot for shorter format. Not true.

Yes it does take patience and time to weed thru them and its not always so easy to go to track and find what you want w/ limited ability to see horse other than maybe a short over controlled jog. And of course some people feel they CAN"T ride a TB. which is funny since every single one of them is diffrent and not a stereo typical.

I could wax on forever, but like the WB in the H/J market its all fad and fashion if X has a Holsteiner X's that excells well everyone has to get one.
"The olde chestnut "but mom all the kids in my class have one".
I reality it has nothing to do w/ the actual bred or horse but fashion and lets face it some of the riders abilities to actually ride.
when the New Zealanders and Australians showed up what did some do but race out to buy the horses from those countries.
The grass is always greener, while we have everything we need right @ home.

[denny]

The majority of my event horses over the years have been full tbs. My current "hope" is an OTTB by Dumaani, a super jumper, with a getting better mind.

So I`m a fan, that`s not my point.

The real point is having the time, skill, contacts, resources, etc, to see dozens of these young horses, and discern which ones aren`t too badly "damaged" to retrieve.

It`s a special skill, and most of us don`t have it.

[kookicat]

Ah, Denny, that is why the bred for hunt racing/steeplechasing horses here in Ireland are such incredible finds for eventing. Or the mares are bred to ISH for eventing. The 'chasing horses, like the ISHs tend to be left out in the fields 'til they are three or four. Then you just have to tame them - feed works for that pretty well ;)

It is simply too expensive to get these back to the US, however. We need to fins a plane and start a co-op... ;)

That's how Lilly started life. She was tough, knew how to look after herself, you know? Her dressage wasn't the best, but she could jump the moon and hated touching a fence. I wish I could find another like her. :sadsmile:

[shea'smom]

I bought a 5 yr. old TB. A dealer near here bought him off the track and then I paid about 4 times more for him, $2500. But, she took the risk, I was able to ride him twice, jump a fence, etc. She has the eye. She also bought He's Got Rythym, who was short listed with Kim S.
That was 22 years ago, that I got my guy. He did a prelim 3Day before being injured in the pasture. He is still standing in my field.
Nowadays, people want to go straight to the track and most of them don't know what they are doing. Or else, they want to buy for the prices they see on Canter, without expecting the middle man to make their profit.
I'd rather pay the extra and get to sit on them.
I love the TB, but I must say my little dutch/tb mare is fabulous.

[denny]

Lots of people have nice websites, and if there was some sort of clearinghouse kind of place that the buying public could go to find out who has tbs for sale, they could be directed to the various websites for more detailed information.

Maybe such a place already exists, and I just don`t know about it?

[Bobthehorse]

I love the TB, but I must say my little dutch/tb mare is fabulous.

I have on of those, and I dont think anyone could say he isnt just as quick, clever or athletic as any TB. He was purpose bred for eventing, by a very small time breeder, and he is just one of those horses you would never find if you didnt already know he was there. Im very lucky he wasnt born in some big barn in Aiken or something, Id have never been able to afford him.

(This is the one who does the dolphin impression, and has taken to doing a fine kangaroo as well).

[broodmare]

The real point is having the time, skill, contacts, resources, etc, to see dozens of these young horses, and discern which ones aren`t too badly "damaged" to retrieve.

It`s a special skill, and most of us don`t have it.

Bob Tindle used to bring back trailor loads of TB's from out west, many of whom went on to be excellent horses for Bruce and many of the locals around here. as you say he had the contacts and the eye, and while all of them didn't work out, enough worked for him to be justifiably famous. (locally)

The late great Dr. Charlie Reid bred Ballycor in his back yard (Ballylickie/Cormac) because he reportedly felt that you could take a fairly average TB and put it in the right hands with the right training, and go on to be competitive. I don't think Ballycor would be competitive today because of the increased emphasis on Dressage, but Charlie sure bred a horse that was appropriate for the times.

It takes a long range eye to breed event horses, and a certain stomach for adversity. Marshall Jenny used to say "This isn't a game for boys in short pants." Although Marshall bred race horses as a young man he rode timber races and he certainly knew what he was doing.

Alternatively you can spend a bucket of money all at once and buy something made up.

[snoopy]

If you take the time, and are willing to beat the bushes and make the contacts, you can find a TB that has nice conformation, and just does not care if he pokes his nose in front or not. They are out there, and you will be bidding against the hunter trainer who's figured it out. Back in the dark ages, you could steal one. Now, not so much, but, you can get a nicely put together horse, that's already been under tack and knows left, right, go and whoa for 3-4K.


Absolutley!!! And you would be surprised when you approach these breeders. Look, the racing industry is just that...industry/business. BEFORE they are willing to spend money on trainer fees etc. alot of horses are broke put into minimal training and it is clear very early if the horses have what the trainers/ breeders are looking to put their time and money into. I know some who actually get cheap TB's...nice ones at that... who have shown very early on they are not suited to racing, have never actually raced and the trainers/owners/breeders are quite happy to part with them for little money. They want these horses "off the books". Those are the ones to look at...before they end up with the lumps and bumps that cause us to run in the other direction.

My problem is that americans tend to breed weedy tiny little things not like the irish and english who breed a bit some substance into their horses.

[snoopy]

[I]

Bob Tindle used to bring back trailor loads of TB's from out west, many of whom went on to be excellent horses for Bruce and many of the locals around here. as you say he had the contacts and the eye, and while all of them didn't work out, enough worked for him to be justifiably famous. (locally)

The late great Dr. Charlie Reid bred Ballycor in his back yard (Ballylickie/Cormac) because he reportedly felt that you could take a fairly average TB and put it in the right hands with the right training, and go on to be competitive. I don't think Ballycor would be competitive today because of the increased emphasis on Dressage, but Charlie sure bred a horse that was appropriate for the times.





YES YES YES!!!

I was going to add this tidbit about ballycor when I started this thread. Yes the demands have changed but I agree to this day with Charlie's view point. I believe we are confussed and in the wrong mindset about the horses we actually NEED and the horses we are conditioned to THINK we should have.

[SevenDogs]

My problem is that americans tend to breed weedy tiny little things not like the irish and english who breed a bit some substance into their horses.

That is a sad fact in American TB breeding. We have several OTTB's in our barn ranging from age 3 - 25 and it is very easy to see the evolution of TB breeding for lighter and lighter body types as you go from older to younger. Of course, nothing is an absolute, but it is definitely a trend in American racing, and a sad one at that -- lighter and younger.:( Wish it would reverse itself but not likely.

[unclewiggly]

Ahh. Broodmare thank you so much for bringing up "Pop" Tindle what an amazing Eye" that man had.
And so many people benefited from it. Sure not all made the grade as eventers but lots went on to be nice Fox Hunters and timber horses.

You are absolutely right to about breeders and some trainers wanting to get horses off the books, but a sad fact. Its getting the inside skinny w/ them thats where the need is. Some do not want anyone to know where horse came from, some are afraid horse will end up racing somewhere, and others just plain can't be bothered w/ retail sales and putting up w/ the time required to answer phone calls, e-mails and the awefull tire kickers.
Owners would rather donate or pay to send horse to a charity and get tax write offs. Some want a return for the investment and expect a good price.

Right now there is actually a shortage of Race Horses.
Lots of 2yr old and 3yr old but trainers w/ horses who can run and have conditions are holding on to them.
Tracks do not want stalls full or unraced 2-3yr olds who are to many days away from a start. They want them to come in w/ gate cards and ready to get a work or 2 and enter.
The tracks are upping the amount of starts required per horse to qualify for a stall @ track.And while we think that bodes well for us to buy..it doesn't it means they run longer and when done9they are toast) some get sold to cheaper tracks or the Dominicans or Puerto Ricans to race in their countries.
Those guys are no hassel let me see form guys don't want a flex n jog. Cash n carry buyers. Less hassel fro trainers they know when their coming and when truck will pick up.

Denny @ one time there was a webb site that listed page after page of horse sites under catagory, Horses for sale or equipment of tack, hay. Think it was the "Haynet" or "Hay Webb" but I don't believe it functions anymore.
I wish there was such a place sort of a directory by state and catagory you could subscribe to...correct me if I'm wrong if such a place exists.
If so does anyone use it.
I get people to my site from ads I pay to place on the likes of Dream Horse, USCTA (USEF) site or print ads in Horse of Del Val. Or PMing COTHers who have bought from me. Referlas from other customers.

[snoopy]

I agree with Denny and Snoopy both! I do think it takes a different kind of horse for modern eventing. The horse has to be a much nicer, very differently trained horse (which means the brain and balance). My first advanced and upper level horses would never be able to compete in the top of the sport today. They were not soft and adjustable enough. BUT, that said, I still own OTTB's, and they fit the bill. For example, this is a new horse off the Charlestown track : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5b7aQoBgRU
He has all the pieces I am looking for, and he was not an exorbitant amount of money. I have another young one that is from the same place that hopefully will also be a very nice upper level horse. I think we do overlook many nice OTTB's....whether that is because we don't have the eye for what the horse will become, or because we don't have the contacts, or because they are not that common I don't know.

Christan



CT

THAT is what I am talking about. Spike, your OTTB in the video, is EXACTLY the point I am trying to make!!! I do not know what you paid for him but I am sure it was not five figures given he is OTTB in this economy. This horse looks to move well, have some good substance and given the right training should easily give those expensive "just because" must have imports a run for their money. Well done to you.

[EventerAJ]

Absolutley!!! And you would be surprised when you approach these breeders. Look, the racing industry is just that...industry/business. BEFORE they are willing to spend money on trainer fees etc. alot of horses are broke put into minimal training and it is clear very early if the horses have what the trainers/ breeders are looking to put their time and money into. I know some who actually get cheap TB's...nice ones at that... who have shown very early on they are not suited to racing, have never actually raced and the trainers/owners/breeders are quite happy to part with them for little money. They want these horses "off the books". Those are the ones to look at...before they end up with the lumps and bumps that cause us to run in the other direction.

Agreed.
After spending my first year with a toe in "the racing industry" I am pleasantly surprised. I'm lucky to work for good horsemen, who treat horses right and honestly have their well-being first in mind. If a good horse isn't competitive, at a solid level, it finds a new job-- steeplechasing, or as a show horse, or something. If you are fortunate enough to be connected with such people (they ARE out there!) you can find some nice sporthorses. :)

[Ajierene]

All of this "thoroughbreds off the track are an untapped source!" talk is all well and good, but I think what people are missing is the demographics of the current eventing world.

How many times have people discussed that the lower levels are where the vast majority of eventers are. The adult amateur is the heart of the business.

Most of these people are not looking for a diamond in the rough type of thoroughbred that they have to train and possibly will not work out. They want a horse that at least knows its job and is known to enjoy it. Something that is at least confirmed Novice, if they are not looking for a packer type horse. They want a horse they can spend a lifetime with, not one they will be selling in a year because it did not work out.

A Bob Tindle type bringing thoroughbreds from out west would find himself void of buyers because most of the buyers want something they can go out and start competing. Those that can afford trainers are more likely to want to spend the extra money on a purpose bred horse - flashier, proven through bloodlines to be good at the job, etc.

There is also an influx of people wanting to event their very non-purpose bred breeds (the morgan, arab, draft cross that was their hunter, saddleseat, etc horse that they are looking to do something new with).

So unless someone wants to take these horses off the track and train them, buyers are not going to want them.

Of course there are adult amateurs, some are 'reriders', that want to bring their own horse up - but that just does not seem to be the norm anymore.

[snoopy]

All of this "thoroughbreds off the track are an untapped source!" talk is all well and good, but I think what people are missing is the demographics of the current eventing world.

How many times have people discussed that the lower levels are where the vast majority of eventers are. The adult amateur is the heart of the business.

Most of these people are not looking for a diamond in the rough type of thoroughbred that they have to train and possibly will not work out. They want a horse that at least knows its job and is known to enjoy it. Something that is at least confirmed Novice, if they are not looking for a packer type horse. They want a horse they can spend a lifetime with, not one they will be selling in a year because it did not work out.

A Bob Tindle type bringing thoroughbreds from out west would find himself void of buyers because most of the buyers want something they can go out and start competing. Those that can afford trainers are more likely to want to spend the extra money on a purpose bred horse - flashier, proven through bloodlines to be good at the job, etc.

There is also an influx of people wanting to event their very non-purpose bred breeds (the morgan, arab, draft cross that was their hunter, saddleseat, etc horse that they are looking to do something new with).

So unless someone wants to take these horses off the track and train them, buyers are not going to want them.

Of course there are adult amateurs, some are 'reriders', that want to bring their own horse up - but that just does not seem to be the norm anymore.



I think you so the lower level eventer a disservice with this post. Actually I find it is the riders with upper level aspirations that are looking for the horse that they can saddle up and enter prelim and above. It has been my experience that the lower level rider who has no desire to go above training level is quite willing to put the time in (and guess what...enjoy that time) building a partnership. Contrary to your belief not everyone is looking for or can afford a training level packer that they can pull out every weekend and compete. My point is that we lose out when the perception is that we have to have "such and such" in order to do well in this sport. Eventing is expensive but we need not make it more so because we are being conditioned to believe that we cannot afford "the right type of horse" and that the ones we can afford are not worth the time and effort....

I am not focussiing on OTTB either. I maintain that you need not be flying round the world to find a capable horse, for what ver level you aspire, when there are plenty to be had in your own "neighbourhood" and where you do not need to get a second mortgage on your house to buy.

[TKR]

You not only have to be able to choose a horse off the track -- having an eye for conformation, movement and possible unsoundness -- but you also have to have the skill and knowledge to train. It's not even necessarily a matter of "re-training", it's like starting a young horse because it's for a new discipline. I have always thought that is one reason Thoroughbreds get the bad rap -- they are bought by folks who don't know how to choose and then are not trainers, so they blame the horse.

As far as breeding the "weedier" types, there are stout ones here as much as anywhere. Finding ones that are bred more for the classic or route distances is one generality that is good as is knowing a bit about pedigrees.
PennyG

[Ajierene]

Snoopy, I think we are in agreement, but I may have not been clear. I am speaking purely about buying directly off the track, opposed to a horse with some training.

I do not think that all the adult amateurs are looking for the five figure horse or packers. I think they are looking for consistency. A horse they do not have to fight with or find out is a mess outside of the ring. One that ends up hating jumping, or some other problem that makes them bad for eventing. So, either a horse that is older and proven to at least have the parts needed (ability/like to jump, comfortable out on trail/cross country course, etc.). This horse may be experienced in eventing, or as I stated earlier - a horse they own already and know has the parts (ie-they do saddleseat but can trail ride their horse alone, so they know he will at least not blow up on a cross country course), or a horse that is younger but proven through work with a trainer and/or bloodlines that eventing would be his niche.

The average adult amateur would steer away from buying straight off the track for the same reason they would steer away from buying at an auction - lack of predictability about the temperment/ability of the horse.

This is the problem with saying we are missing the boat on the horses off the track - it is for the reason TKR mentioned - most adult amateurs do not have the skills to find a thoroughbred that will work (the eye conformation, movement, possible unsoundness) and retrain it. They do not have the skills and many do not want to - they want to grow with their horse, but they want to know that they can grow with their horse. A young horse that has done one Beginner Novice, or had some training and gone to some schoolings and the owner can see clearly has the parts, or an older horse that the owner already has a connection with that they can easily see has the parts (by this I mean if the owner cannot take the horse out of the ring without him losing his marbles, he fairly obviously cannot be an eventer, to give an example).

[Gnep]

Snoopy you are absolutely right. There are plenti of horses in the back yards that would do nicely up to prelim, fewer for I or A.
But consider the change in money. If you looked at a show parking lot 10 years ago at the riggs, 40k maybe 50k, take a look at todays ( 2008 standard ), 100k rigg is not a big deal, 2 horse, Novice to Training rigg.
That kinde money very seldom will buy the backyard horse or the I have to make it first horse. BN,N,T,P, no need for a purpose bred horse, or TB or TB Cross, no need to spent 20k plus, Bn,N easily under 10K ready to go. I consider myself a big spender if I pay more than 2K, but than I would not buy a 40K plusplus Pick Up truck or a 20K plusplusplusplus horsetrailer.
As important as it is to have the 40kplusplus truck as important it is to have The Horse with the proper blood lines and so on and there are percentage wise less riders that are able to make a horse than 10 years ago.

[eventrider]

Snoops,

You are right, I paid under 10k for the horse, although I got a great deal. I have to say though, I did not pick this horse. This was the third horse that I bought sight unseen from my contact in Middleburg, Lisa Reid. As people have stated, you have to have a great eye for what the horse will become under the right hands, and I trust her eye way more than mine! I have since purchased another young horse through Lisa again, sight unseen which is equally as nice and inexpensive. The thing is, you have to be able to ride and train them. I guess I am saying that there are very nice, top quality horses in this country of many breeds and come from many places, you just have to have a good eye for a horse, or know someone you trust that does!

Christan

[snoopy]

GNEP

So often we are faced with threads of "eventing on a budget" I often chuckle at that thought process. Of course everyone will have a different idea as to just what "budget" means to them. I have always evented "on a budget"! For me that means buying what I NEED...tack, truck, trailer, and most importantly horse. I have traveled pretty damn far up the levels on a budget...and with "budget" horses. So I say, buy what you need, what you can afford, and do not shake a stick at a horse that with some good work, management, and training will take you further than you know or even further than you yourself can go. If it is put together well, has a good brain, and you have the time you may just be surprised that everything you are looking for is actually sitting in your back yard, but you are too busy in the UK looking for that must have flavour of the month that you are going to pay far too much for. Some pretty "unlikely" horses have made it to advanced level and continue to do so. I do not believe that they are a rare find, only that someone with enough smarts managed to put all the pieces together.

[broodmare]

I'm back on the original topic of older horses/newer format. Nirvanna was a great mare who I believe was an OTTB. And maybe was purchased by or for her rider when Jill was a teenager. (My memory is a little vague.) She was terrific cross country and maybe not for today's dressage.

As far as Adult Amateurs (myself included) we should buy and ride horses that we enjoy, and are able to afford and cope with. That's a nobrainer. But I don't think if Bob Tindle wandered into town this afternoon, he would have any trouble finding buyers. Even in today's market. Nice guys with a brilliant eye for horses just aren't a dime a dozen. And if he called me up and said he had just the right one for me,(Hard since he is no longer with us.) I would buy the beast sight unseen.

[snoopy]

Upper level horses are MADE. There seems to be the belief in america that they are a rare find, actually they are not. Go to the UK and see how many advanced horses they have...not all of them are some magical mystical creatures....just good, solid horses that have been trained and managed correctly. It seems that the atitude here is that "my little pony" couldn't possible have what it takes to be an upper level fellow. Another reason as to why we have no depth of horses at the highest levels. Look outside the box, do your home work and presto, you may just find you have one of those horses of a lifetime. Give the "common boys" some credit.


Mr. Tindle brought back some seriously ugly fellows who with a bit of spit and polish ended up dining at the captain's table.

[TKR]

I agree that the training is probably the missing link. A good foundation (at the start, if possible) or alot of patience and allowing the time is the key. I really wonder if the horses from yesteryear are not being afforded enough hindsight. Perhaps had they been brought along differently (for the current format) and had the good dressage basics and continuance through the levels, who can say? The difference between that fancy dude that carries a big price tag and a less commercial one maybe comes down to the right person in the irons and the right attitude in the horse. If the fancy one has tons of talent but no work ethic, I'll take the less perfect one with the "put me in coach attitude" any day.

Riders want opportunity, but what kind of opportunity do the horses get? They are totally dependent on who gets them and what kind of environment and training is invested.

As far as a clearing house, it's a great idea and way overdue -- it's a pity that the Jockey Club, the race trainers and the breeders who keep pumping them out don't do more for the ones that fall through the cracks. The rescues are dependent on charity and are overcrowded and overworked. Personally, I think it would be a great time for the Thoroughbred racing industry to step up to the plate, especially in light of all the criticisms of late and the publicity and love for Barbaro, and put something together that would really make a difference and bridge that gap. I'm not smart enough to know exactly how it would work or have the contacts, but it is an ethical solution to their mass production and small percentage of ones that make it big. JMHO! Anything to help the Thoroughbreds!
PennyG
Still swimming upstream ...

[Gnep]

Snoopy I event on abudget and my last 2 OI horses were junkyard horses, both Quarter, one of them 1eyed and the other with the sweet little habbit of throwing herself on the ground, droped like a stone in trott and gallop. For me the challenge of making those horses is as much important than eventing its self.
But I think what we have seen in the last years is the demand for the ready to go horse and the demand for blood line symboles, breed status symboles, fancy seller name etc. and that that horse produces, instantly and consistantly.
Because of that a ton of great horses do not get developed, discovered

[TLA]

At the end of the day, the real riding fun in the sport is making up the horses. I was looking back through all the archived results from 1974 thru 1994, and every time I saw my horses names, I remembered how much fun I had getting them there.
Right now I ride 6 homebreds - not one like the other. Some days go better than others with young ones, but at the end of most weeks, I can be pleased with their progress. I do love the process. Too bad that more and more people will miss out on that part of it.

[SmallHerd]

I totally agree that the fun is bringing them along. I have re-started a few OTTBs, and when it finally clicks, it is so rewarding. In this day and age, patience is a rare commodity. Sometimes you have to kiss a lot of frogs and learn from your mistakes before you meet that handsome prince, and I don't think that is part of many riders' DNA.

[unclewiggly]

As far as a clearing house, it's a great idea and way overdue -- it's a pity that the Jockey Club, the race trainers and the breeders who keep pumping them out don't do more for the ones that fall through the cracks. The rescues are dependent on charity and are overcrowded and overworked. Personally, I think it would be a great time for the Thoroughbred racing industry to step up to the plate, especially in light of all the criticisms of late and the publicity and love for Barbaro, and put something together that would really make a difference and bridge that gap. I'm not smart enough to know exactly how it would work or have the contacts, but it is an ethical solution to their mass production and small percentage of ones that make it big. JMHO! Anything to help the Thoroughbreds!
PennyG
Still swimming upstream ...

Well just an FYI for what its worth and this absolutely 100% true, today 40 horses were loaded up into 4, 10 stall rigs and shipped to Florida awaiting a flight to the Dominican Republic. The buyers were in over the week, $1000. head, paid the vet to stay all day and fill out health certs. horses were loaded and left. Agent says the goverment fronted the funds to bring in new horses since there is no breeding in that country to support the racing.

[Bobthehorse]

All of this "thoroughbreds off the track are an untapped source!" talk is all well and good, but I think what people are missing is the demographics of the current eventing world.

A Bob Tindle type bringing thoroughbreds from out west would find himself void of buyers because most of the buyers want something they can go out and start competing. Those that can afford trainers are more likely to want to spend the extra money on a purpose bred horse - flashier, proven through bloodlines to be good at the job, etc.

Of course there are adult amateurs, some are 'reriders', that want to bring their own horse up - but that just does not seem to be the norm anymore.

Do you think that could be one of the problems in modern eventing? The work ethic is lost? The challenge of putting into the horse as much as you expect it to give back is waning? Everyone wants the perfect horse now, and they arent willing to do any extra work to get it to that point. Plus they want chrome, or spots, or a GP trot, or something.

[snoopy]

Well just an FYI for what its worth and this absolutely 100% true, today 40 horses were loaded up into 4, 10 stall rigs and shipped to Florida awaiting a flight to the Dominican Republic. The buyers were in over the week, $1000. head, paid the vet to stay all day and fill out health certs. horses were loaded and left. Agent says the goverment fronted the funds to bring in new horses since there is no breeding in that country to support the racing.



Just an honest question....what exactly happens tho these horses when they are no longer suited for racing...since there is no breeding/industry. The dominican is not a wealthy country and most of the money that travels into the country is from holiday makers and snowbirds.

[LexInVA]

Just an honest question....what exactly happens tho these horses when they are no longer suited for racing...since there is no breeding/industry. The dominican is not a wealthy country and most of the money that travels into the country is from holiday makers and snowbirds.

Some end up as regular horses used for work or packing tourists around at the little ranch resorts. Other than that I simply do not know.

[pony grandma]

Wow, a real discussion - for an entire thread. I am impressed. Carry on gentlemen and ladies.

[TKR]

There was recently an article in a magazine regarding the racehorses' fates in Puerto Rico -- they are destroyed once they are no longer profitable to race. Young, sound -- doesn't matter. I've also seen an article about a racehorse on a Caribbean Island that had just been "turned out" to fend for himself after his racing career. He was in deplorable shape before someone helped him. These are Third World countries -- very poor and not likely to be able to care for these horses. Just another dirty little secret of the horse racing industry in my opinion. Another way to "dispose" of excess horses - out of sight, out of mind and no future!

As far as the other posts regarding the process of developing a young horse or OTTB -- that has long been my "niche" as well as breeding. I have always been fascinated by the matchmaking and the bloodlines research as well as bringing along a young one. The smallest victories are such a giant step as they learn self confidence and confidence in their rider as well as the skills they need for a good future. I'm not sure how much pride there is in winning on a horse you didn't train or develop. Those who haven't worked with the young ones or worked through problems with OTTB's or others have really missed a great experience as well as a great deal of knowledge. Until you are just thrilled that your youngster didn't jump out of the dressage arena or dealt with all the hoopla at the first little schooling show, you don't get the point, LOL! I think those who develop them really learn to "listen" to their charges if they enjoy any success at all. I guess we are the ones who love the "journey" and are not just after the "destination".
PennyG

[clivers]

Maybe the movement towards ready-made just-add-hot-water competitors is in part because there are fewer people today with the ability to pick the good OTTB's (in addition to there being fewer people willing to invest the time in training them up).

My instructor is a 75 year-old Hungarian cavalry man who spent his youth touring Hungary on horseback with his father while his dad evaluated mares for the national breeding program (the best ones were not allowed to be drafted by the army). He's picked a TON of advanced horses out of the field/back stretch, several of which have gone on to the Olympics. When he dies, though, he'll take his secrets with him. He's trained a TON of eventers over the years and was the Chef of the Canadian team, but to my knowledge none of his longtime riders (definitely me included) feels we've learned how he selects horses.

How did Lisa Reid learn her skill? How are the other newer talent spotters training their eye? I'd love to know!

[eventrider]

I grew up in the Virgin Island on St. Croix. We had a track there. The race horses were "imported" but you could bring any horse (with no papers, any breed) to the track to run. I don't recall what happened to the horses after their racing careers ended, BUT, there were no breeding farms, and I was in the Pony Club there and we never saw a one of them. The island is about 27 miles long, so there are no farms there to "turn them out" on. Now, I can only imagine what happened to them. I bet a few made it into private hands, but only a few at most!

Christan

[evans36]

I purchased my latest horse through an OTTB broker of sorts. Her name is Elizabeth Wood; she runs Bits and Bytes Farm outside of Atlanta, GA. She has contacts at tracks all over the country, although most on the east coast. Her network notifies her when there's a horse that is still sound that needs a transition off the track, and she posts it as a prospect on her website (www.bitsandbytesfarm.com). I bought my guy through her with just pics and talking to the track contact about his personality. (Of course, I also had a PPE done, etc.)

I was really, really happy with the experience. I have the skills and wish to transition a horse, but I'm not a professional horsewoman, so I do lack those contacts. There's no way I would have gotten a horse from Philadelphia Park in SC. I also love the fact that she does this online, which allows her to reach such a wide audience. These horses are believed sound (she does recommend the PPE) and ready to transition.

There are also some stud farms starting to transition their horses before they are pasture ornaments... Adena Springs is one (www.adenaretirement.com). Huge kudos to those farms!

I know buying a horse from pictures and recommendations is a scary thing, but I think for the sake of these beautiful TB animals, we need to do everything we can to connect those of us who can retrain them to the horses before they are completely broken down. Just as we're seeing baby boomers who are retiring and starting different careers because they are not ready to be "finished" yet... I hope we'll be seeing more and more of this from our OTTBs!

(I know this is off the OP topic... but the discussion about OTTB really struck a chord!)

[Bobthehorse]

My instructor is a 75 year-old Hungarian cavalry man who spent his youth touring Hungary on horseback with his father while his dad evaluated mares for the national breeding program (the best ones were not allowed to be drafted by the army). He's picked a TON of advanced horses out of the field/back stretch, several of which have gone on to the Olympics. When he dies, though, he'll take his secrets with him. He's trained a TON of eventers over the years and was the Chef of the Canadian team, but to my knowledge none of his longtime riders (definitely me included) feels we've learned how he selects horses.

Is that Tapsi?

[eventrider]

Clivers,

Good question. I don't know that anyone can answer that question though, as I bet it is similiar to a very talented rider...they just are. I will certainly ask Lisa though!! I do know she rode on the track early on www.reidtowin.com

[clivers]

Is that Tapsi?

Yup!
He'll be 76 next month!

Christan - I'd love to hear what Lisa says. Thanks heaps!

[Ajierene]

Do you think that could be one of the problems in modern eventing? The work ethic is lost? The challenge of putting into the horse as much as you expect it to give back is waning? Everyone wants the perfect horse now, and they arent willing to do any extra work to get it to that point. Plus they want chrome, or spots, or a GP trot, or something.

For the confirmed lower level riders (say Training and below, with a few Prelim riders mixed in), I do not see this as a problem. I see most of these riders as ones coming from another discipline or returning to riding or just starting riding at a later age. They are in a personal learning process so having a horse that they can have some confidence in is a great help. Also, these people are they type of people that keep TKR in business. I don't think that everyone should get the experience of sitting a buck or dealing with a runaway horse or one that is totally freaked out by dressage or cross country or brightly colored stadium fences.

There are people that like that challenge and there are people that don't - if everyone liked the same thing, there would be a lot more horses going to slaughter and our entire breeding program would be different. If some of these people do make it to Intermediate or Advanced, they spent enough time at the lower levels that they have a solid base to work their way up on.

I do think for those with upper level aspirations, who want that one with the perfect amount of chrome, etc. are a problem. These are the ones that are looking for the perfect bloodlines - just like they need the right brand car, truck and trailer. They are not looking with a discerning eye, but with their wallet. A fellow salesman sold for the same company at a different location and always had better sales numbers than me. He said one of the biggest reasons was that Mr. Moneybags would come in and state that his neighbor paid $20/sf for carpet so he had to pay more than that. For no other reason!

The type that is competitive but does not want to put the work into it (a friend sent their two daughters to horse camp - one was thrilled to help feed, clean out stalls, groom, etc. The other just wanted to ride and enjoyed the riding part but not the rest - I'm talking about akin to the second). They want that confirmed upper level winner, but they do not have the personal skills to compete and end up gunning the horse to much or holding back to much. Or they buy that prospect and are to busy moving up quicker than their neighbor to worry about proper training - and likely don't even really know how to train.

Yeah, those are a detriment to the sport.

[denny]

This following is just a possible theory, one I`m not sure is correct, but seems likely.

We are pretty sure, aren`t we, that many eventers in the 2009 era either don`t want to make up their own horses from scratch, or don`t know how to?
(I`ve certainly heard that said plenty.)

If so, why is that?

Possibilities:
1.Too spoiled, lazy, etc-----OR,

2.No longer live "out in the country", because there isn`t any open country nearby to live in---

3.So, logically following no.2, these riders haven`t "grown up" in and around horses at all stages of their development, so they`ve never learned HOW to make up a baby----

4.So they need a broke, ready to go horse, not out of laziness, but because they lack the knowledge/opportunity to do it the old fashioned way.

I`d bet that while, sure, there are little princes and princesses who won`t get their little hands dirty, the main reason is these huge demographic shifts in the way Americans live, as we`ve gone from a still semi-agrarian society in the 40s and 50s, even 60s, to an urban, suburban society in the 21st century.

Maybe we need to figure out how to teach self reliance, as in how to turn a weanling into a 1 star horse (and up), the way we "oldies but goodies" took totally for granted, because we had no other options?

[evntr06]

I also would like to add that based on what I've seen at shows, majority of BN-N-T eventers(which make up most numbers for the sport) are amature adults, with jobs and families. They may not have the skill to retrain OTTB, as they are learning themselves and really need a horse that's already been there done that type thing. I know at this point of my riding career getting something green off track would be a really bad idea. So, it is possible that the numbers of people who are able to retrain and willing to take a risk of the horse not working out (always a chance with unstarted in eventing animal) is actually pretty small compared to the whole number of people who do event.

I just wanted to add that I think Denny hit the nail on the head. As a personal example, a professional in their 30s and re-rider, I grew up having weekly lessons in a city barn, NOT riding and training several horses a day or having exposure to knowledgeble horse person. And while I am riding now with a trainer, I still would not feel comfortable bringing up the horse, as at BN I am still pretty green rider. I just never really had an opportunity or time to learn the horsemanship skills required for bringing up a horse. Maybe some day I will. Its not that I don't want to or too lazy! Its just the reality of the world.... In all honesty, there are days that I really wish I did not have to work for a living so I can spend all day at the barn riding horses and getting experience in horse care. But, one, my body is not very forgiving of physicall stress and injuries any more, and second, I have to pay that mortgage and grocery bill as well as having an insurance to fix the said injuries.

[Fence2Fence]

. As a breeder, you cannot afford to reproduce the horses you are talking about on the track, because I am sure the stud fees are astronomical.
Christan

I just wanted to chime in for a second. I own a small farm on the outskirts of Lexington KY, which used to be a small TB breeding operation.

The farm still gets gorgeous brochures, catalogs, and CDs of the studs that are standing at the various farms around Lexington.

One of the most recent mailings was from Three Chimneys. The price list for stud fees had Smarty Jones at the top with a price listed as "private." The next stud was for $300,000. And 'cheapest' on the list was for $7,000.

The $1-2k stud fees for sport horses seem kinda cheap in comparison.

[TKR]

I agree with Denny as far as "opportunity" for kids to learn the ropes and bringing up a young and schooling an OTTB. But, I was a kid of the 'burbs, totally non-horsey family, got to go to a boarding barn maybe once or twice a weekend (if I wasn't grounded, LOL). They had alot of sale horses in and out, so I rode anything, started a couple of young ones for others and finally bought my own. I think if you have the passion and look for the opportunities you will find them. There are those who look at the negatives and tell you why they can't and those who look for the positives and say "how can I do this". Starting young ones, breeding and re-training are not for everyone. It's a matter of where your interest is. I just hate to see an OTTB being taken on by someone who *thinks* they can do the training and it turns out badly so the horse is the victim. Or a young one started by someone inexperienced goes South -- I've taken on my share of those to fix. You can treat young ones or fresh off the track like a "going" horse. I'm only starting my own at this point (55 y.o.), but I find the most reward in seeing the progress in a young horse or a re-train as the light goes on and they are relaxed and happy in their work. This is not meant as a criticism, I'd be lost on an Advanced horse or a GP horse -- what are all those buttons? -- it's just to say that if you have a young one or OTTB and don't have experience get good help and give the horse a chance -- that's how you can learn!

As far as an "eye" for an OTTB or otherwise, has the Hungarian Coach been asked to show his students what he is looking for or seeing? Pointing out a few things can be a big help even someone else doesn't have the same gift. Maybe that's an area Pony Club could cover.

PennyG

[Bobthehorse]

Yup!
He'll be 76 next month!


*squeals* he admired my horse last summer. My coach was over the moon about it, however I had no idea who the guy was :D

[Fence2Fence]

4.So they need a broke, ready to go horse, not out of laziness, but because they lack the knowledge/opportunity to do it the old fashioned way.



Based on what's been said on COTH that some upper level riders who want to make the Team have been asked how many and who their sponsors are...

Maybe the answer isn't that they are lazy or lack knowledge, but they are buying into the message that one needs money to buy made horses, so riders go that route.

If the question was, 'How many nice young horses do you have now at Prelim and Intermediate,' maybe the thought behind building one's string would be different....make 'em instead of buy 'em.

I don't know, but the handful of intermediate and advanced riders that I'm acquainted with, make up their own horses. But these people seem to be like the rest of us...trying to afford keeping and competing that one horse.

I can only think of one who has a purchased upper level horse (off the top of my faulty memory)...but has brought up and is currently bringing up young horses.

[FairWeather]

Poking my head in here to bring something up that I see as an issue in finding the elusive OTTB.

I cannot even begin to tell you the lack of VISION people have. No WONDER they are unable to find an appropriate OTTB. I go to the track and find 5 that I would take as event horses, and people think i'm nuts.

they think i'm nuts because they see a scrawny, no-muscle, fungus covered, wild-eyed horse bouncing on the end of a chainshank.

I see a long, uphill neck, a big wither, and a good hip. I see clean legs that will look perfect with some decent farriery, and I see a quiet brain and soft eye behind the bouncing that only requires some time off in a big field. You cannot go to the track and expect to find a horse that looks like a million bucks if you've only got 800$ to spend. Consequently, if you have the education about where bones should be, and how a good brain acts on the track, well you've found yourself a goldmine.

Laine Ashker's Anthony Patch was one of these horses--he was scrawney, meek, underweight and LAME at the track. I got someone to buy him for 700$, and a short type into google will tell you where he ended up.

Another point I'd like to make--do you REALLY need something that is 16.2? Really??



(sidenote, Eventrider, that horse is lovely--what is his breeding?)

[joliemom, again]

I see a long, uphill neck, a big wither, and a good hip. I see clean legs that will look perfect with some decent farriery, and I see a quiet brain and soft eye behind the bouncing that only requires some time off in a big field. You cannot go to the track and expect to find a horse that looks like a million bucks if you've only got 800$ to spend. Consequently, if you have the education about where bones should be, and how a good brain acts on the track, well you've found yourself a goldmine.

Since we've been on the receiving end of your fantastic eye, all I can say is amen sister girl! We've got Larry at Prelim, Bug ready for novice after two BN starts, and Goose looking at his first maiden outing after, what?, maybe 2 months of work.

Another point I'd like to make--do you REALLY need something that is 16.2? Really??

True that, but Goose still makes my heart pitter patter.

[eventrider]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/big+ten2


Christan

[Gnep]

what some here discribe is what is called the third eye, the ability, from a lot of horse experiance, to look past what is presented, to know what that horse will look like and will be able to do few month down the rode.
I will not buy a horse that on first sight, will not gallop with me down the stretch

[frugalannie]

But this thread has kind of morphed into different streams:

1. Are the successful uper-level horses of yesteryear different from those that are successful now?

2. Are full TBs (whether OTTB or not) suited to be upper level horses in the current environment?

3. How have riders changed over the years in their skill sets and aspirations, and what impact has this had on the above?

Denny's 4 point analysis on why riders don't make their own horses anymore, along with Aljerene's comments are right on, IMHO. But there is also the issue that most people can't afford to make a mistake, either in their selection of a horse or in the training process. As has been pointed out, mistakes are expensive both in the resources invested in the animal and in the possibility of serious injury to the human.

However, for those of us who enjoy combing through the backstretch to find a fun project, there aren't many educational opportunities. I don't think I've ever seen a clinic on the subject. I've been lucky enough to tag along with some real expert "eyes" who have been track shopping, and that has been my education, but I know I need to learn so very much more. And Fugly HOTD just doesn't do it.

So how are others developing their skills?

[BritNativePony]

I've really enjoyed this thread - what a treat for someone who is desperately trying to make the move to eventing from (a less exciting) background in hunters (I feel like I've found My People!).

Some thoughts about finding the horse to fill the bill -
As mentioned before, I'm switching disciplines. I don't own a horse. I've just been riding any horse I can get my hands on, which has been a bit rough seeing as how I tend to move a lot (husband is in the military) and never really get to set roots down into the local horse-community. I've owned various horses in the past - one of which was an OTTB, and the largest chunk of my riding has been on OTTBs. I've also been away from horses for a good handful of years - and spent that forced hiatus really developing my goals; I read about eventing, I lurked on forums to study the people involved, I discovered the 'shift' on my own and really started to look at how horses succeeding differed from those who had succeeded in the past.. basically I spent years plotting how I would inject myself into the sport and how I would choose my next horse. I looked at horses where ever I was in the country, I made contacts with experts within breeds and learned as much as I could, and I spoke with as I could who were active in the sport. I really started to see a pattern..

First, I realized that obviously you needed a horse that could be more technical, could squish up and stretch out with ease - you needed an athletic, bold, correct, and willing mount. I also saw that the sport which I thought was impervious to trends and fashion was changing - suddenly 'the rule' was becoming favored over 'the exception'. Initially, I believed that TBs would dominate the levels as a majority, because I knew that if you looked hard, you could find one hell of a TB waiting to have a new job. I also believed that the general atmosphere I would find amongst eventers would be one that fostered 'thinking outside of the box'. I've been kind of disappointed to feel as though I'm just jumping into eventing as it's starting to align more to the H/J way of things. That prospect is a disappointing one, because I really felt like a square peg in hunters.

I'm the sort that likes to be different.. I have a hopeless admiration for the underdog, the outcast. I guess I'm a believer. Perhaps this colors my view a bit.. but in all of my wanderings of the country, in all of my research, I've found LOADS of horses that had the potential to fill my goals (first go around, I'd like to find a prospect who can do at least prelim, maybe I). Some of these horses were very expensive (ex: the Irish crosses), but tons were less than 3k. Of those that were inexpensive, half were OTTBs, and the rest were a various assortment of breeds. Ones that would totally be written off at a moment's notice. I've known Haflingers who's riders do prelim level courses for fun, Paints who would be fine on a UL course, pony crosses who could jump the moon and were fast, Mustangs even that if given proper training, had the mind and build to sail over fences and gallop with the best.

Now, I wasn't looking for horses to go past prelim/I, and I don't feel qualified to say "Yes, that could be a 4* horse"... but my gut told me that they were there. That the proper training, conditioning, and even just the right encouragement would turn some of those ugly ducklings into swans.

Why did I spend time looking at these horses? Well, as I said before I love the uncommon. Plus, after doing OTTBs, I wanted to try something different... but I feel the same about our populous of OTTBs. If you beat the bushes hard enough, you WILL find something sound, fancy, and cheap.

I'm one of those people who will always be "a rider on a budget". I think I'd be that way even if I won the lottery :D There are wonderful horses around the world. I am such a fan of what the UK and Ireland have to offer, of the WBs from central and eastern Europe, of the stock down in Australia and NZ, or of the horses to be found in South America. However, we have loads of talent here - we had talent to fill the needs of the longer format, and we have talent to fill the needs of the new format - but it seems as though we've lost the sense of it, we've gotten swept up in this "new idea" of what it is to be an eventer, and sometimes it feels a bit status oriented to this newbie.

I for one will always push for a community that rewards the exception to the rule... if people just started thinking outside of the box, I promise that "the exception" will become so common, it will be "the new rule". Isn't that one of the most exciting aspects of eventing? I think it is!!

[unclewiggly]

I have always invited friends and customers to come w/ me on backside expeditions. Anyone any time PM me.
But how do you teach someone to see that "hologram" your 3rd eye gives you?
I rarely ask for a trot, the walk tells so much more, how they place the legs when they stop on a straight line. The swing thru and over track, tension in neck, use of head. Feet can be fixed to a degree, green new ankles will remodel and stress induced soft tissue will heal and its the speed that kills them. Something our sports don't replicate.
The symetry and balance between length of neck to back to leg.
Hip, shoulder, neck placement in chest. And I could care less about color or sex. But for re-sale unfortunately need 16.H
Head, as long as its hung on neck correct, plain short long square don't care as long as eye expression is there. They don't walk on their heads if the mouth is good and wind tunnel works.
I have bought dead ugly, sore sewing machine trotters who have gone on very quickly to be on the buckle 4+' oxer jumpers @ the trot out of a puddle.
And really decent adequate movers.
One wall running looney that were wild when out of the stall who sold in April and doing horse trails by November.(I bought him because no one could see what I did). He re-sold handsomely to a wonderful visionay.
This isn't a self pat on the back, but I would so love to be able to share the "eye" thing or be able to put it across so selling that unfinished project @ an affordable price would be less painful.

On the discussion regarding green versus trainer prospect/projects.
I so would rather start up a blank page w/ teh experiances of an OTTB. than have to fix something.
I'd rather start w/ nicely put up blank drywall than have to scrape off wallpaper and old paint..........IMHO

[FairWeather]

I agree with uncle wiggly about defining that "eye". It's elusive for sure, but it can be taught, just like seeing a distance to a jump.
Educating yourself about conformation is step 1, with step 2 being the idea that conformation doesn't an entire sporthorse make :)
(example here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3322573819_5ac7a42884.jpg ) would you buy this hind end as a prospective eventer?

Look at successful event horses--they all have things in common, what are they? Better yet, what *Aren't* they?

I rarely ask for a trot, the walk tells so much more, how they place the legs when they stop on a straight line.
YES!!

[TKR]

Just learning about structure, angles, neck set would be a good start.
PennyG

[ss3777]

Maybe we need to figure out how to teach self reliance, as in how to turn a weanling into a 1 star horse (and up), the way we "oldies but goodies" took totally for granted, because we had no other options?

HMMMM, I like Denny`s 4 points. By definition I must be an oldie but goldie or is that goodie ;) I grew up in a city but would take a train to a barn that I fondly remember as the school of hard knocks. I would clean 20 plus stalls, lead trail rides, teach up downers and ride all the wackos that paying people would not ride. Did a lot of bareback riding, some hunter/eq stuff, barrel raced, pole bended and grew up like a wild Indian. Finally had a little polish forced onto me at a competitive IHSA college and started foxhunting. Galloped at Saratoga for two seasons and fell head over heels in love with the mighty TB. I love the process and the pride of starting from scratch to the first recognized event. I wonder though, if I had different financial resources would I buy the made horse and move up the levels? Or maybe if I did not have the wild Indian backround would I even attempt training an OTTB? I guess the real question is would I be a better rider if I did buy a horse that could move me up the levels with ribbons to match? Would the sport be a better sport with out the men and ladies from the schools of hard knocks? I would imagine that the sport needs the weekend warriors with the big wallets, the adults with more mileage than money and everything in between. Which brings me to Denny`s question, if we had a process to help folks learn the process of making their own horses, who would show up? Would it only be folks like me that love the process or would it entice the people that maybe would rather focus on winning ribbons? If you have a high powered job would you have time to compete and bring along a young horse? Oddly this brings me back to the controversial watch issue. Frankly I think no watch helps allow the competitor that is out their doing their homework, bringing along their own horses have an edge over the person who may have bought the ride. Competitor A that knows pace should have a lead over competitor B that knows how to glance at a watch. I know only one piece of a complicated puzzle. What is the hallmark of success, a ribbon or producing my own eventer? Just some musings as I watch a nor`easter howling outside my window!!

[broodmare]

I rarely ask for a trot, the walk tells so much more, how they place the legs when they stop on a straight line. The swing thru and over track, tension in neck, use of head.
AMEN

Would someone remind the folks that judge the FEH competitions. This whole emphasis on the BIG, run away with you, exaggerated trot in the very young horse shown in hand is nuts IMHO. I had a pro "dressage in hand" handler helping me and his first question was along the lines of who was judging and how much "fire breathing" (his exact words) did we need at the trot. I'm not a big one for lighting them up for an in hand class. How about a straight, big swing walk, and a springy straight trot and don't teach them to run off with you down the line. If I wanted to show dressage in hand horses, I would have done so. Eventing is a different sport.

I'm pretty much done with the FEH, but I needed a little rant.

[seeuatx]

Poking my head in here to bring something up that I see as an issue in finding the elusive OTTB.

I cannot even begin to tell you the lack of VISION people have. No WONDER they are unable to find an appropriate OTTB. I go to the track and find 5 that I would take as event horses, and people think i'm nuts.

they think i'm nuts because they see a scrawny, no-muscle, fungus covered, wild-eyed horse bouncing on the end of a chainshank.

I see a long, uphill neck, a big wither, and a good hip. I see clean legs that will look perfect with some decent farriery, and I see a quiet brain and soft eye behind the bouncing that only requires some time off in a big field. You cannot go to the track and expect to find a horse that looks like a million bucks if you've only got 800$ to spend. Consequently, if you have the education about where bones should be, and how a good brain acts on the track, well you've found yourself a goldmine.

Laine Ashker's Anthony Patch was one of these horses--he was scrawney, meek, underweight and LAME at the track. I got someone to buy him for 700$, and a short type into google will tell you where he ended up.

Another point I'd like to make--do you REALLY need something that is 16.2? Really??

I think this is symptomatic of our society as a whole being unable to see outside the box of what we are told is desirable. I have a much longer explanation, but must leave for a job interview so I will post when I get back.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3322573819_5ac7a42884.jpg[/URL] ) would you buy this hind end as a prospective eventer?



Just the hind end, without knowing who it is, how it moves, or how it jumps, I would have to say no. The angle through the stifle and hock appear quite straight to me, and I would question longevity at the upper levels of any sport. But then again, I hate trying to judge pictures... some just have that extra something in person.

[JER]

This is such an interesting discussion.

I just wanted to point out an essential part of the time-honored way of 'starting' an eventer in the UK.

Event riders (and showjumpers) didn't buy weanlings, yearlings or even three year-olds. They bought 5 and 6 year-olds from people who produce young horses, usually by taking them out hunting, to clear-round SJ, to hunter trial XC days. You didn't buy a horse if you didn't know it could jump.

After two seasons of hunting, a six year-old would be ready to start competing at Novice. UK Novice is 3'6" but the courses are much, much more user-friendly than your standard US Prelim course. (snoopy, I'm sure you'll agree with me on this.)

Starting about 10-15 years ago, it became increasingly difficult to find horses in the US with a hunting background. If I was looking for an eventer, I'd call around for a horse with hunting experience. If the horse was reasonably attractive and obedient u/s, the transition from hunting to eventing wasn't a big one. If they could stay sound out hunting, they'd hold up for eventing. If they could look after themselves out hunting, they'd be fine on XC. But finding a horse like this is not easy anymore -- probably because fewer horses are going hunting and the ones who are experienced in the hunt field can cost you $25K or more.

[JER]

Would someone remind the folks that judge the FEH competitions. This whole emphasis on the BIG, run away with you, exaggerated trot in the very young horse shown in hand is nuts IMHO.

Agreed. The modern dressagey trot with lots of knee action is a contra-indication for eventing -- it's wasted, inefficient movement. Same goes for heavy muscling.

That said, I don't think anyone has figured out how to show horses in-hand at the canter. :)

[Taglet]

Denny, I was fortunate to be able to attend your clinic last Monday night - really enjoyed it, thank you! I'm a very novice dressage rider here in SP (competing at First Level) with a way more talented young Holsteiner - there was so much to take away from your comments and I'm thrilled to see that you're so active here. Thanks so much for sharing your years of knowledge and experience. So much to learn! :)

[GreyDun]

Agreed. The modern dressagey trot with lots of knee action is a contra-indication for eventing -- it's wasted, inefficient movement. Same goes for heavy muscling.

That said, I don't think anyone has figured out how to show horses in-hand at the canter. :)

I don't want to sidetrack this thread - but how do we show off the future event horse's most important gait? (obviously the canter). We suggested perhaps showing them "off the line" in an enclosed arena to analyze their canters...but there aren't many facilities where this would work. Thoughts, suggestions?? Feel free to PM me - we want to make this series work...but obviously, it needs some help.

[denny]

Sorry, Taglet, that was Leslie Law using my arena.

Very disappointing, what can I say?

[JER]

I don't want to sidetrack this thread - but how do we show off the future event horse's most important gait? (obviously the canter). We suggested perhaps showing them "off the line" in an enclosed arena to analyze their canters...but there aren't many facilities where this would work. Thoughts, suggestions?? Feel free to PM me - we want to make this series work...but obviously, it needs some help.

I think the real answer is the one that unclewiggly so wisely shared with us: you can infer the canter and gallop from what you see at the walk.

(Ask a smart punter at the racecourse and they'll tell you to watch for the walk.)

But that doesn't make for much of a show.

Same goes for showing them off the line, like the 'liberty' Arab class or the YH free-jumping class at the Dublin Horse Show. You'd have a young horse going around with its tail in the air, bouncing around on jack-hammer legs -- the buzzy show environment would never get you a balanced gait. I wouldn't be inclined to enter my horses in a class like this.

I think the best bet might be to de-emphasize the trot. Not sure how to do this, though.

[Lincoln]

I'm with Denny on his four points.

Many of us are casualties of a suburbanizing culture and office jobs more than lazy or in a hurry.

I'm grateful to trainers (like Denny) who teach horsemanship along with riding to us older AA's who didn't have the chance as kids or younger adults.

It would be great to have the opportunity to go to camp or clinics in working with babies, selecting a young horse out of a scruffy set of OTTB's (mine certainly met that description of crusty, skinny and gawky, not wild-eyed, fortunately) with an eventing focus.

So to answer Denny and SS3777's question - I would totally show up to such an offering, and pay good money for it, too.

Call it "Never To Late Horsemanship"?

[denny]

What if the USEA somehow recognized those riders who bring horses to a certain level "from scratch"?

For example, many years ago I was given an old mare named Chee Oaks, and I bred her to my very young stallion, Core Buff.(He fainted, another story altogether).

Anyway, in due course,(despite Chee`s annoyance with his performance) Chee foaled a bay filly which we named Chestry Oak, and we raised her, taught her to lead, tie, eventually to be ridden, took her novice (or whatever we had back then), training, preliminary, intermediate, advanced, and when I rode her at Chesterland and Rolex 3-day events, it was one of the more meaningful things I`ve ever done with horses.

Especially since I also brought Core Buff from a yearling to Rolex, though someone else bred and foaled him.

Bruce of course has done that with Jam, what a great thing to have done!

Anyway, would some kind of program/recognition, whatever, for this kind of thing whet people`s appetites to try it?

[FairWeather]

Sorry, Taglet, that was Leslie Law using my arena.

Very disappointing, what can I say?
Taglet, you'd NEVER find Denny sharing information! :D

[sm]

What if the USEA somehow recognized those riders who bring horses to a certain level "from scratch"?

Is that "from scratch" data trackable? If so, is it in the data already captured, where USEA can look back the last couple years?

[denny]

I`m not even sure what "from scratch" ought to mean, but something like taking a horse which has never jumped (OTTBs would qualify), or maybe never evented, or some broadly acceptable definition.

Maybe even levels of "from scratch-dom"

[LexInVA]

I guess "from scratch" ought to simply mean that the horse has never competed. That's about as simple as it gets though you could widen that to say the horse has never competed and was bought without any pre-existing training or conditioning. Of course, verifying that is a whole different bowl of salsa.

[clivers]

*squeals* he admired my horse last summer. My coach was over the moon about it, however I had no idea who the guy was :D

Seriously - don't ever sell that horse! It's probably fantastic!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Would someone remind the folks that judge the FEH competitions. This whole emphasis on the BIG, run away with you, exaggerated trot in the very young horse shown in hand is nuts IMHO. I had a pro "dressage in hand" handler helping me and his first question was along the lines of who was judging and how much "fire breathing" (his exact words) did we need at the trot. I'm not a big one for lighting them up for an in hand class. How about a straight, big swing walk, and a springy straight trot and don't teach them to run off with you down the line. If I wanted to show dressage in hand horses, I would have done so. Eventing is a different sport.

I'm pretty much done with the FEH, but I needed a little rant.


Sorry that you had a bad experience....that wasn't the experience I had the first year. In fact...the judges I had at my qualifiers and at the finals asked that the horses not be chased or lit up. One had everyone repeat their walks until the young horses were all settled and walking calmly. You know my own horse....he doesn't need to be lit up to show off...he just needs to think he is being watched.

[frugalannie]

Sorry for this diversion, but I think it's worth noting again that the FEH we ran at Ledyard had Eric Smiley and Margie Hutchison as judges. Eric would ask the handlers of fire-breathing horses to see try to get the horses to relax and just trot along, so not all judges are looking for the extravagant mover.

Grey Dun, maybe this needs to be made explicit in the directions to judges? I read the srticle about YEH, but don't recall seeing this FEH point addressed.

[JER]

Sorry for this diversion, but I think it's worth noting again that the FEH we ran at Ledyard had Eric Smiley and Margie Hutchison as judges. Eric would ask the handlers of fire-breathing horses to see try to get the horses to relax and just trot along, so not all judges are looking for the extravagant mover.


And Eric Smiley (http://www.ericsmiley.com/horses.html) sure knows how to find and produce a top event horse.

I think the FEH people would be very wise to pick the brains of people like Eric Smiley or denny or Bruce -- what would they look for if they were horse-shopping for their next big-time horse?

[unclewiggly]

Slightly off topic but relevent.
For those who like OTTB's and want to develope and eye or just plain want to learn before venturing out.
Why not form a plan to clinic somewhere central.
I sure as heck can line up all sorts of shape and size age OTTB's to be fodder and maybe a few dusty winter fuzzy ringers.
Or an outing to one of the large CANTER type rescues. For eyeballing n lunch??
The clinic format would need some sage wisdoms and a fee.
Need people like Denny and a few otheres to have a walk round then the participants share the critique.
Not a conformation clinic but a function over form, handsome is.
Does this make any sense...sitting to long during a snow storm eating cheetos:yes:

[LexInVA]

Now you're cooking with gas!

[TB or not TB?]

Slightly off topic but relevent.
For those who like OTTB's and want to develope and eye or just plain want to learn before venturing out.
Why not form a plan to clinic somewhere central.
I sure as heck can line up all sorts of shape and size age OTTB's to be fodder and maybe a few dusty winter fuzzy ringers.
Or an outing to one of the large CANTER type rescues. For eyeballing n lunch??
The clinic format would need some sage wisdoms and a fee.
Need people like Denny and a few otheres to have a walk round then the participants share the critique.
Not a conformation clinic but a function over form, handsome is.
Does this make any sense...sitting to long during a snow storm eating cheetos:yes:

Wow I REALLY like that idea!!! I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Taglet]

Sorry, Taglet, that was Leslie Law using my arena.

Very disappointing, what can I say?

Wow, how embarrassing! However, that answers the confusion I had .... I arrived late after thinking I was going to a dinner elsewhere, was freezing cold and couldn't make sense of the voice I was hearing... Unless of course, you're pulling my leg further. Thanks for providing the venue, that I KNOW was Tamarack Hill.

I'm clearly confused and better stay in the silly dressage world. :eek:

[ZiggyStardust]

Very interesting topic(s). Speaking from the point of view of an adult amateur re-rider, with a sort of then-and-now perspective of eventing (because I did not ride for several years), these days I see more families with more disposable income (or more willingness to spend, anyway). A trade off of the income and higher standard of living though, is time available to really learn how to ride and train. I see many kids and young adults with parents to foot the bill for an import and/or a heavy show schedule, who find trainers to show them which buttons to push, and who want to power up to Prelim or to riding for a national team. They have not truly learned how to train horses because they've never really had to make due with what they had.

When I was a kid I was lucky enough to stumble across an incredibly athletic little mare for dirt cheap, and I would ride anyone else's horses for free, just to get the experience. I would clean stalls, do anything. Today, in the same neighborhoods I grew up in, that type of kid has gone extinct. They are so sophisticated and want $ for lifting a finger. I have to believe that this brave new world drives many aspects of the horse industry, from who is put on a team to the demise of the true 3-day to what type of horse is bred or selected off the track or in New Zealand, etc. by a trainer and brought to the top.

[SevenDogs]

I'm clearly confused and better stay in the silly dressage world. :eek:

Oh no... don't do that! ....We are ever so much more fun! :yes:

[LAZ]

Does anyone else keep reading the title of this thread as "Denny--those skinny old horses of yours"

Uncle Wiggly, I'd be willing to help with the OTTB thing, if it's in my area. I've gotten a pretty good percentage of good, sound horses off the track, including one that has gone on to do Rolex.

I'd offer to help regardless, but I volunteered myself to get a T3DE off the ground here in Indiana and I'm kinda swamped with that, so can't volunteer to travel very far anytime soon.

I would also suggest Sue Hines for an eye picking track horses. She's excellent at spotting the right stuff.

[TB or not TB?]

Does anyone else keep reading the title of this thread as "Denny--those skinny old horses of yours"

Oh man I do. I keep wondering if the thread is about someone calling animal control or something!! :lol:

[TB_eventer]

I haven't had time to read this entire thread, although I am enjoying all of it so far! What a great read, and some great educational conversation :)

I agree with uncle wiggly about defining that "eye". It's elusive for sure, but it can be taught, just like seeing a distance to a jump.
Educating yourself about conformation is step 1, with step 2 being the idea that conformation doesn't an entire sporthorse make :)
(example here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3322573819_5ac7a42884.jpg ) would you buy this hind end as a prospective eventer?

Look at successful event horses--they all have things in common, what are they? Better yet, what *Aren't* they?


Just had to hop in here and ask if that is a pic of Winsome Adante? Wasn't it used in an article in the Eventing magazine about conformation critiques awhile back?

Conformation is only one aspect of what needs to be right when choosing a horse. The horse's mind is equally, if not more important than the build IMO.

Thanks for this thread! I wish I had time to be more constructive :lol:

[FairWeather]

TB--Awesome eye! It is indeed Winsome Adante.
Lots of folks would pass that hind end up based on a photo. Just goes to show you that a straight hind end isn't the end of the line for a horse, and that you never know what you've got until you know what you got ;). Aka, it's gotta walk the walk.

[subk]

First, I have to totally agree with snoopy, there are more horses out there with the ability to do the ULs than there are riders that can get them there--and they don't necessarily need to be sport bred. I used to joke when I was riding my first upper level horse which I brought along myself from a 4 year old that mostly I just stayed out of his way and didn't screw him up. The more young horses that I ride the more I don't think of that as very much of a joke anymore. It's amazing what they will do for you if you don't give them a good reason not to. You really don't have to spend gobs of money. As a friend of mine used to say, "even a cow can jump 3 feet."

But one thing I'd say about my UL horse from almost ten years ago is that while I don't think he could do the dressage today he would have been an absolute master at these technical courses. We used to hope for technical courses because that was the best way for us to get a ribbon--hated, hated dressage, but on XC he was as obedient and ratable as he was catty and clever.

Some of the problem with missing these horses in our back yard is because we are loosing horsemanship in the country. Yes, some of that has to do with the loss of rural living, but there doesn't seem to be many voices concerned about the loss of horsemanship as it relates to the loss of the long format. And not to lay blame, but I don't recall anyone terribly concerned many years ago about how the "new" Young Riders Program was pulling kids out of Pony Club which was horsemanship focused to the new program that was mainly focused on competing.

While there are plenty of adult amateurs making our own, the population of adult amateurs who don't and can't has significantly increased. When I was first starting out in eventing 30 years ago I don't think I even knew any adults that "rode with a trainer" in the sense we do today--back then you "took lessons" from someone. And you sure as hell didn't buy a horse from a trainer then turn around and have the trainer ride it for you because you couldn't quite ride that horse well enough...

And I suspect hunting has changed too. Used to be you had to "earn" your colors. These days more and more hunts award them on you ability to pay your first dues bill. I wouldn't even consider buying a potential event horse from most of the people I know who hunt. A few are fabulous horsemen, but too many are weekend warriors using a four legged "vehicle" for their day of fun.

[eventrider]

Very well said subk...I agree with all of your sentiments!

Christan

[Bobthehorse]

I agree, very well put.

[Gnep]

Let me throw in some stuff from Kraut Country, way back.
The guys who started eventing after the War were Cav guys. After the war goes for me to the end of the sixties, because thats when the last blocks of burned out houses vanished and interestingly things changed at the same time.
The horses produced for eventing, the majority, were Cav stile horses, tough, enduring and with a lot of heart.
One day after a dressage lesson, I complaint to my father about the brutal gaits, I just got beaten to pieces, my father told me I do not breed those horses for your comfort, but for geting you in one piece to the finish line and they did, most of the time. They were brutaly tough horses, no pleasure to ride, accept in a hunt or X-C.
Eventing at that time was a rather crude affair, no groomed footing, no designed jumps, most of the time jumps were placed were there was room for them, it was rather basic, but very tough, naturall obsticals, ditches, creeks, brushes, sheep pens, live streams, live stock ponds, were happily integrated, hell we even used the the AAA dugouts and foxholes around my home town to make things more entertaining.

Than we got the big Events going, Luhmuehlen, Axelschwing, Bramsted and so on, in the 70s, that changed to whole complexion. Suddenly we had groomed grounds. Wiesbaden was a doozy, the Royal Parks, you talk about a knock out Event, 1 star and 2 star.
First time I got a taste of the big times.
But than the game changed, even that our horses were highly bread in blood, heavely on the TB side, still WB, guys like Ruediger Schwartz brought in some Irish TB and when we bread those to ours it was a super charged horse. Those suckers were a serious handfull, it did not improve dressage, but stadium and X-C, wooooo.
You ticked those guys wrong during dressage you would probably put some spectators into the hospital.
The now better groomed footing, better selection of trails, galloping lanes, added jumps, increased the riding speeds, now you needed a horse that was tough as nails, enduring, but extremly fast, it had to be able to take 700 plus with ease and that for ever.
Entry level was Training, 4000 meters minimum, 5000 max, 550mpm, and at least 30 jumps, heights and width oriented itself at the Stadium Jumpers of the same level and there was no CD qualification system, we just built what we thought we could jump.
It got us into some trouble and things changed.
When ever we change the sport we have to change the horse.
Taking the bite out of X-C, puting it towards dressage and than towards stadium, we changed the way we ride and the horse we need.

I like the comfie horses of today, but I would love to get the endurance back, it would take some comfie out of the horse, Training at 4000, P at close to 5 and so on, that would produce some classy horses, no dressage worth talking about, but the rest, gee

[SevenDogs]

Does anyone else keep reading the title of this thread as "Denny--those skinny old horses of yours"


YES!! I thought it was just me! :lol:

[columbus]

I think that there is a huge space between novice event riders now and novice event riders "then". We need intro to just include trotting and walking around out of an indoor...then cantering then cantering up and down hill...THEN simple obstacles. It has been a long time since I rode outside of a ring...I USED to...but I haven't for a long time. It is a skill you can lose. You get old and you get afraid. I still WANT to ride the fields as I used to and I would love to help others ride fields for the first time. It makes happier horses and better riders. It makes safer riders. It increases your ability to problem solve and think riding forward wich makes riding forward, which should be most dramas FIRST solution, a choice which opens up the possibility of riding those rescue TBs or the young inexpensive horses or taking a horse on their first event.

Right now I see very few new riders learn to ride forward. Safety is controlled by using so much caution that a seat is never developed. Safety become control. I am at a barn that is dedicated to rescuing TBs but no one can ride a horse forward through a problem. They spend all their time calming the TBs down, walking on the lunge lines, jogging on the lunge line, these poor ponies never get broke at 3/4s of their athletic potential. A great horse is one who can mosey around the farm after the pasture horses come in. Sometimes they bolt and sometimes they rebel by getting rascally. It's a disaster to be around horses but not learn to ride forward but where are they going to learn. Not only are there no kids learning to ride but no one is teaching adults to ride forward. We gotta problem here. PatO

[denny]

My friend David Hopper has bought and sold literally thousands of horses over the past 50 years.

Here`s his handy 1-10 scale:

1,2,3,4-----Very quiet, steady, forgiving. These horses basically ABSORB the riders` mistakes.

5,6-------Ideal competition horses, still calm enough, but with enough spark to really excel.
These horses, within reason, TOLERATE their riders` mistakes.

7,8------Hotter, more intolerant of pilot error, needing of calm, subtle aids, talented, perhaps, but only very good riders can "get at" that talent. These horses MAGNIFY their riders` mistakes.

9,10-------Too hot, they bring only pain and misery

USE THIS SCALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[not again]

What great scale of forgiveness on the horse's part. That should be part of what every breeder, buyer and seller lists as priorities in a program. Thank you for sharing it!

[camohn]

My friend David Hopper has bought and sold literally thousands of horses over the past 50 years.

Here`s his handy 1-10 scale:

1,2,3,4-----Very quiet, steady, forgiving. These horses basically ABSORB the riders` mistakes.

5,6-------Ideal competition horses, still calm enough, but with enough spark to really excel.
These horses, within reason, TOLERATE their riders` mistakes.

7,8------Hotter, more intolerant of pilot error, needing of calm, subtle aids, talented, perhaps, but only very good riders can "get at" that talent. These horses MAGNIFY their riders` mistakes.

9,10-------Too hot, they bring only pain and misery

USE THIS SCALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good scale. I have only ever had one horse I listed as a "9" on the online website ads scale. Would you believe how many more folks I had answer that ad than the sane horse advertised as a 4 or a 6? It was even a QH and not a OTT. Go Man Go bred QH and I have since leaned that lack of brakes IS indeed a trait for that bloodline. Gorgeous horse, super athlete, super quick and NO brakes if you got her out of the ring into an open field. Only a wall would stop her.....or the nastiest gag bit on the market. The ad clearly stated she was only reccomended as a barrel horse as she was very fast and had very bad brakes in the open. Pots of folks were convinced that she must just have been trained wrong and they could fix her. (FWIW my poor hubby later got another horse from the SAME Go Man Go bloodlines and we had the SAME issue! He never looked at the breeding/does not care about pedigree. Just saw a nice looking/moving horse.) The second one was not quite as bad. You could walk trot him in the open just fine. A controlled canter was only a little dicey....he would tug on the reins but was still OK as long as he was tightly reined in. God Almighty you did not want to give that horse his head to gallop though.........the brain cells instantly fried into a dead runaway. I just found it interesting that the only 2 true 9/10s I have ever had came from the same family.

[denny]

It`s David`s scale, with a bit of my interpretation of what it means.

I think we all tend to get most in trouble when we try to ride more "octane", or "firepower" than our skills, (or fitness, or confidence) warrants.

But that means, I guess, that we need to rationally evaluate what we NEED rather than what we want, even going so far as to evaluate the horses we may already own.

And, let`s face it, rational, objective self analysis is very tough to do. That`s why most of us live in some form of denial.

[Elghund2]

Its been an interesting discussion even for someone who loves eventing but does not compete. It kind of brought to mind two questions/thoughts:

1. Reversing Denny's original question to ask, of today's top event horses, which ones could have won in the old days?

2. When I first started out, the set up of three day was explained this way to me. Dressage was first, so that the horse and rider could demonstrate precision and control even with a horse that was fit enough to do the next day's endurance. The endurance/XC was the heart and soul of eventing and was meant to test the endurance and braveness of the horse. stadium was last to show that the horse still had something left after the second day and could jump precisely. It obvious that the idea of endurance is completely gone in three day. So my question, given that I don't think we'll ever see the long format again, how do we get endurance back into eventing?

[snoopy]

It`s David`s scale, with a bit of my interpretation of what it means.

I think we all tend to get most in trouble when we try to ride more "octane", or "firepower" than our skills, (or fitness, or confidence) warrants.

But that means, I guess, that we need to rationally evaluate what we NEED rather than what we want, even going so far as to evaluate the horses we may already own.

And, let`s face it, rational, objective self analysis is very tough to do. That`s why most of us live in some form of denial.


Need and want...or THINK we need and want... is something we are struggling with more and more...
I do believe it is not entirely the fault of the rider but rather what we have been conditioned to believe by our trainers, judges, peer pressure, media etc.
There are many horses I would have LIKED to have had, but many of those would have been unsuitable to me for one reason or another. Some I simply would have not been able to ride or have done justice by them.

[snoopy]

Its been an interesting discussion even for someone who loves eventing but does not compete. It kind of brought to mind two questions/thoughts:

1. Reversing Denny's original question to ask, of today's top event horses, which ones could have won in the old days?

2. When I first started out, the set up of three day was explained this way to me. Dressage was first, so that the horse and rider could demonstrate precision and control even with a horse that was fit enough to do the next day's endurance. The endurance/XC was the heart and soul of eventing and was meant to test the endurance and braveness of the horse. stadium was last to show that the horse still had something left after the second day and could jump precisely. It obvious that the idea of endurance is completely gone in three day. So my question, given that I don't think we'll ever see the long format again, how do we get endurance back into eventing?


My heart tells me that the horses of the past...with different training...would have more likely been successfull today then taking those competing today back then. It is easier to subtract from the old then add to the new. That is not too say that they would have been competitive today, but some of the horses that are out there now would physically be incapable of what was required back then.

[fooler]

My heart tells me that the horses of the past...with different training...would have more likely been successfull today then taking those competing today back then. It is easier to subtract from the old then add to the new. That is not too say that they would have been competitive today, but some of the horses that are out there now would physically be incapable of what was required back then.


Well Stated!

[RacetrackReject]

Just wanted to add that Pippa Funnell's book "Training the Young Horse" has conformation critiques of all of her horses and different explanations of their type/style. I thought it was pretty fabulous that she put that in.

Could we start doing a little training of the eye clinic in post form on COTH? People could post photos, of their own horses only, for evaluation. Video of walking could be part of the requirement..I don't know; just a thought.

[unclewiggly]

So heres a twist on the OP.
Denny ...were those "Skiinny" old horses sounder than those competeing today?
And what were the diffrences for the after care from Roads n Track, Steeplechase and XC. Compared to todays shorter format.
I sure as heck don't remember Ice Boots, Magnetic Blankets, cold lasers,accupunture, chiro and massage etc.

We keep talking about conformation, mind, breeding, but no matter what model chasee or engine under the hood it all comes down to road worthy soundness. a great mind,jump and gait isn't worth a hoot if it has a miss or flat tires.

I so have enjoyed this thread not one cat fight:yes:

[evans36]

It`s David`s scale, with a bit of my interpretation of what it means.

I think we all tend to get most in trouble when we try to ride more "octane", or "firepower" than our skills, (or fitness, or confidence) warrants.

But that means, I guess, that we need to rationally evaluate what we NEED rather than what we want, even going so far as to evaluate the horses we may already own.

And, let`s face it, rational, objective self analysis is very tough to do. That`s why most of us live in some form of denial.

I think this scale is really interesting in that it pulls in tolerance as a part of "hotness." I think people when evaluating need to see these as 2 very different things. My current horse is not "hot," but is not very tolerant of mistakes. He won't run away, he doesn't smoke blowing out his ears, but if I am not crystal clear, he does get very frustrated, and he certainly doesn't cut me any slack by figuring out what I want. He'll tolerate my mistakes, but if my lower leg swings a bit, he's not going to travel in a straight line. He also isn't giving me good lateral movement just because I add a little bit of heel on one side... he requires a really clear ask.

I'd put my guy at a 5 or maybe 6 on a windy day for "hotness," but he definitely falls in the 8 range for his need for a calm, clear rider.

I don't think it really goes the other way 'round (hottt horse who is tolerant of mistakes), but I think the best schoolmasters I've been on to teach advanced riders (not the Up-down-up-down) have been the ones that require the correct ask. Almost like the trainability difference between a lab, who really wants to please you, and a chesapeake, who needs a trainer who is consistent and asks correctly.


And about that denial... riding a horse like this has definitely done a lot to correct some of the delusions about myself that I was carrying around. Even though on some days it can be really frustrating... but when it's right, I know it's because I GOT it, not because he's doing me a favor.

[sm]

Slightly off topic but relevent.
For those who like OTTB's and want to develope and eye or just plain want to learn before venturing out.
Why not form a plan to clinic somewhere central.
I sure as heck can line up all sorts of shape and size age OTTB's to be fodder and maybe a few dusty winter fuzzy ringers.
Or an outing to one of the large CANTER type rescues. For eyeballing n lunch??
The clinic format would need some sage wisdoms and a fee.
Need people like Denny and a few otheres to have a walk round then the participants share the critique.
Not a conformation clinic but a function over form, handsome is.
Does this make any sense...sitting to long during a snow storm eating cheetos:yes:

unclewiggly, check your PMs, I sent you a message yesterday. I'm game if you are.

[sm]

What if the USEA somehow recognized those riders who bring horses to a certain level "from scratch"?

I`m not even sure what "from scratch" ought to mean, but something like taking a horse which has never jumped (OTTBs would qualify), or maybe never evented, or some broadly acceptable definition.

Maybe even levels of "from scratch-dom"

Hmmm.. levels of scratch-dom is good. We don't want kids going out there, getting overfaced, and the horse is the one who ultimately pays the price.

But there should be some recognition, this is a good idea. I am just wrapping up a new USEA TB award program working with USEA staff and leaderboard data, and would be interested in adding this category.

[evntr06]

I don't think it really goes the other way 'round (hottt horse who is tolerant of mistakes), but I think the best schoolmasters I've been on to teach advanced riders (not the Up-down-up-down) have been the ones that require the correct ask. Almost like the trainability difference between a lab, who really wants to please you, and a chesapeake, who needs a trainer who is consistent and asks correctly.


I leased a horse who was reasonably hot, i.e. she had more "go" then "wow", but was very-very forgiving and did not get pissed off if I did something wrong, or lost my balance, etc. My current horse I consider to be less hot, as he needs more leg, and will slow down a lot easier/faster, however, he is a bit less forgiving, and definitely "tolerates" my mistakes, but he does have a limit.

[Ajierene]

If we are talking about 'horses in our own backyard', I would much prefer a clinic on conformation and suitability for literally - horses in our own backyard.

I get the feeling there is a little bit of eventing snobbery when it comes to breeds. Some eventers seem to think it HAS to be a Thoroughbred off the track and if you don't have one your not really an eventer. When people talk about not spending a lot for a nice horse the conversation keeps going back to Thoroughbreds off the track and how so-and-so had one, this Olympian rode one, that upper level rider prefers them, etc.

Personally, in my backyard, I have two mustang/paint crosses, one solid paint, one paint/thoroughbred cross and a two thoroughbreds. Someone could come to the farm where I board my mare and do a clinic with at least six different horses. Five of the horses mentioned are available for sale for at most, $1,000. They range in age from 2 to teens.

While I may go to a clinic focusing solely on a thoroughbred off the track, I would be much more interested in generalities of different breeds and crosses as well as specific conformation examples and movement examples and what they can tell you about future performance of the equine.

[unclewiggly]

I am in Maryland and anyone who wishes to help me do this, cause I'm great @ concept but need assist in excecution PM me, will give you my e-mail and webb site.
I actually have an idea just bounced of my counter part who has an indoor. To have a pre-view of both of OTTBs for sale about 12, on lunge under saddle and over fence. Could combine this into both w/ small clinic fee??
We did 2 Re-Starting your OTTb clinics last year went well but small turn-out.
Lots of good hand-out info and in groups of 2 @ a time. Everyting from trailer loading-picking up feet, mounting block issues and some basic lunge line,round pen and flat to jump stuff. Was fun:)
For those far flung, maybe something on You-Tube?
I love the idea of a COTH thread w/ photos. especially if we refraine from being nasty and do "then and later a now".
Standard conformation shots 4, 2 side 1 front 1 rear. No age no breed no discipline. ID only w/ a code owners 1st two intials and days date.

[sm]

oh crap, I was behind on my PMs!! Am leaving to see my horse now but am thinking about this.

While I may go to a clinic focusing solely on a thoroughbred off the track, I would be much more interested in generalities of different breeds and crosses as well as specific conformation examples and movement examples and what they can tell you about future performance of the equine.

soundness (injury, conformation) aside, most of what you're asking about is what's between the ears. Conformation attributes that contribute to soundness are the same for all breeds.

[Lincoln]

I'd travel down there to do a clinic (without my horse, but soaking it up). Kim from Leighton Farm might also have some horses to put in the mix if you needed more warm bodies. Thank you in advance SM and Uncle Wiggly. You'd be helping out the rest of us a lot. I'd be interested in learning more about what sessions you're already doing with starting your OTTB. Would give me incentive to visit my parents in DC.....

[ThreeDays]

Anyone who devotes enough of their life to equestrian sport eventually decides to define their purpose and sculpt what their focus will be. In this I mean that most of us spend years playing the jack of all trades - playing the part of rider, trainer, broker, seller, and sometimes breeder. After time most finally decide which hat they wish to ware and decide to be only one of these jack tradesmen.

It’s at this point that we decide to use resources rather than be self sufficient. There are many diamonds in the rough to be found – but truth is that a single rider could waste years searching for this find on their own. Most good riders don’t have backdoor access to good horses walking off the track. Most aren’t able to bring a horse through the levels on their own. Heck – many don’t have the eye or ability to see true potential and assess a horse’s character before it’s under saddle or in training.

It’s for these reasons that I think riders and trainers alike will turn to breeders to fill the order and will find that the initial payout is well worth the investment that ultimately saves time and disappointment.

Breeding for the sport of eventing is not a radically new idea. But many of the ingredients and methods have changed and will continue to change as our sport undergoes its own remodeling.

The sports arena of show jumping, dressage and show hunters have for a long time turned to breeders to supply the right type of vehicle for their sport. Eventing will be no different.


But in this early phase of the game breeders and riders are still learning how to access one another. The FEH and YEH series are just the beginning of how these worlds will begin to understand each other and utilize each others strengths.

As a breeder – it is paramount that my young stock gets into the hands of dedicated riders and because of this I will make efforts and assume financial loss to make it a reality. Without the ability to get real time feedback from riders and trainers my breeding program stagnates; and the wrong breeding choices could potentially be made.

Many have the dream and notion that going at it all alone is the top prize – the American Dream to make something all your own from nothing. But that notion won’t get you far and will in many cases break the dream in the end when in the end most won’t succeed or accomplish what they sent out to do and waste years being spread too thin.

When breeders and riders learn to work with each other like they do in other countries and equestrian sports then we will be living much more to the motto of All for One and One for All.

[SevenDogs]

It`s David`s scale, with a bit of my interpretation of what it means.

I think we all tend to get most in trouble when we try to ride more "octane", or "firepower" than our skills, (or fitness, or confidence) warrants.

But that means, I guess, that we need to rationally evaluate what we NEED rather than what we want, even going so far as to evaluate the horses we may already own.

And, let`s face it, rational, objective self analysis is very tough to do. That`s why most of us live in some form of denial.

I'm a 1-4 'er!! ....but at least I know it and stay at the lower levels where I belong! :)

[sm]

I'd travel down there to do a clinic (without my horse, but soaking it up). Kim from Leighton Farm might also have some horses to put in the mix if you needed more warm bodies. Thank you in advance SM and Uncle Wiggly. You'd be helping out the rest of us a lot. I'd be interested in learning more about what sessions you're already doing with starting your OTTB...

What might make sense is a list of reputable OTTB trainers who can provide a similar program throughout the country. Of course people can tailor the clinics and info they want to receive from these trainers. The thing is how to qualify trainers so the bad ones don't show up.

ThreeDays, rest assured when I say "OTTB" there have also been perfectly good WBs ending up at killer auctions. To get a skill set down, to recognize a good horse that looks beat up --- might ultimately make specialty breeders like yourself extremely grateful.

The OTTB aspect is really what to do with a horse that is already coming to a rider with past experiences, and a language that many non-race people just don't understand. Not to mention drugs and track soreness... this is the OTTB skill set needed, which is beyond the standard requirements for other diamond-in-the-rough horses.

[BritNativePony]

I really like the idea suggested by UncleWilly and SM - to do this thing on COTH and/or elsewhere in the real world that helps people to identify strengths that a horse has. I personally feel as though I have the confo aspect down, but I don't feel as confident about movement.. it would be great to include videos.

[Duramax]

That is a sad fact in American TB breeding. We have several OTTB's in our barn ranging from age 3 - 25 and it is very easy to see the evolution of TB breeding for lighter and lighter body types as you go from older to younger. Of course, nothing is an absolute, but it is definitely a trend in American racing, and a sad one at that -- lighter and younger.:( Wish it would reverse itself but not likely.

It seems like there has a reversing of that trend though thankfully! :yes: I went to a barn in SW Georgia that had about 40 Grade 1 racehorses (Derby & Breeder's cup level vs. running at the local track I guess) and they were massive. If I wouldn't have known that I was at a TB racing barn I would have easily guessed that these were QH racers! I think it has to do with the shorter distances that they run nowadays- they prefer sprinting types vs. distance runners. I commented on their bulk and the head buyer and trainer for this farm told me that the buyers at the big auctions favored the bigger horses. Go figure!

[Gry2Yng]

I`ve been on the backside of race tracks, as many of us have, and seen heads "to die for" looking out over those doors.

Long snakey necks, breedy, classic heads, big eyes, class, class, class.

Then they come out of those stalls.

Bowed tendons, big knees, osselets, bone chips, suspensories, the whole sad wreckage, and they`re usually only 3-4 years old.

But we can`t afford them "before", because we can`t begin to compete economically with race horse buyers. Again, hard reality.

So sad, but true. After several OTTBs that I just adore, one my CCI** horse, I have purchased my first non-track horse to event. He is coming 4, 30 days under saddle, big boned and undamaged. He rides JUST LIKE my TB's and that is why I bought him. More go than whoa, a big trier and a gallop that covers the ground. Despite being primarily Hann, he doesn't have much spook and despite being started what I consider a bit late, he has a huge work ethic. I never expected to find a wb with these traits. I hope he turns out to be my third lifer. So far, I have enjoyed every ride of our 60 days together.

My CCI** horse came off the track with three races and enough jewelry to hold an estate sale, FWIW, he seems to have a high threshold for discomfort. Horse of my lifetime and I have no fonder memories than doing steeplechase with him.

Edited to add as I get through more of the post. The CCI* horse was a 6+ in the temperament scale, and I had the ability to ride him but never get the "best" out of him. This youngster is a 4 and may actually be more talented. Just what I need as 10 years have passed and I need one that will cover for me.

[eventrider]

I finally had a chance to speak to Lisa Reid about what she looks for in a horse. I am sure I am going to partially butcher her thoughts but here goes.
First, we agreed that is someways, an eye for a horse is a skill that comes natural to some. This does not mean that it cannot be learned, but I think it is much like a natural rider just has it.
Lisa looks at conformation, but more that just standard classic book confo. She looks at the length of the forearm, and the strength of the gaskin, length of the cannon in regards to the upper legs. She looks at how the neck is tied in and whether there is a dip in front of the withers. She also takes into account the age of the horse.
Lisa emphasized two main things. The first is that she really looks at the overall horse, meaning attitude and how confident the horse is. This is as important to her as the way the horse is put together. The way the horse uses itself goes along with the confo and attitude. Secondly, she knows the person she is looking for and their riding style very well before she looks for a horse for you. Lisa knows how I ride, what I prefer, and what I do best with. She thinks that a rider's style is the most important thing to learn, and that finding the horse is the easy part. She had an excellent point that is often overlooked..there are many horses that have upper level talent, but never get the right rider to bring it out or develop the horse. There are more fabulous horses out there than people see because they clash with their rider, etc.
And lastly she pointed out that she has 50 years of experience doing this, so much of it is just natural. Like being able to judge a persons character when you first meet them, finding a nice horse is similiar. Anyone can do this, just most of us don't listen to ourselves closely enough. Lisa has really honed in on this skill. I do wish I had as good an eye for the confo points she looks for, but I guess I need more practice!

Christan

[LexInVA]

:cool:

[evans36]

I would love to explore a "clinic" of sorts on conformation. I love the idea of using OTTBs because there's a captive audience at the tracks - easy to truck the people to one place and have them all right there, instead of having folks truck their ponies in.

Personally, I've worked a lot on my judgment of photos and of horses in movement, but I would love something that focuses on the connection between the movement and the structure. Would also love to see an analysis of weaknesses and what they mean. Like, I can put pros in a list and cons in a list, but is this con bigger than that pro, etc.

Maybe if we start with this photo clinic here on COTH, get some momentum, then develop the clinic for the late summer assuming the momentum does grow...?

[clivers]

I finally had a chance to speak to Lisa Reid about what she looks for in a horse. I am sure I am going to partially butcher her thoughts but here goes.
First, we agreed that is someways, an eye for a horse is a skill that comes natural to some. This does not mean that it cannot be learned, but I think it is much like a natural rider just has it.
Lisa looks at conformation, but more that just standard classic book confo. She looks at the length of the forearm, and the strength of the gaskin, length of the cannon in regards to the upper legs. She looks at how the neck is tied in and whether there is a dip in front of the withers. She also takes into account the age of the horse.
Lisa emphasized two main things. The first is that she really looks at the overall horse, meaning attitude and how confident the horse is. This is as important to her as the way the horse is put together. The way the horse uses itself goes along with the confo and attitude. Secondly, she knows the person she is looking for and their riding style very well before she looks for a horse for you. Lisa knows how I ride, what I prefer, and what I do best with. She thinks that a rider's style is the most important thing to learn, and that finding the horse is the easy part. She had an excellent point that is often overlooked..there are many horses that have upper level talent, but never get the right rider to bring it out or develop the horse. There are more fabulous horses out there than people see because they clash with their rider, etc.
And lastly she pointed out that she has 50 years of experience doing this, so much of it is just natural. Like being able to judge a persons character when you first meet them, finding a nice horse is similiar. Anyone can do this, just most of us don't listen to ourselves closely enough. Lisa has really honed in on this skill. I do wish I had as good an eye for the confo points she looks for, but I guess I need more practice!

Christan

Interesting - especially how she matches the horse and rider. My coach is awesome at picking the great horses too, but he picks what he likes for the way he would ride them!

I have a reasonable understanding of conformation, but feel like that instinctive, 'natural' part of it is ellusive.

One more question: What's the significance of the dip in front of the withers?

Thanks!

[Ajierene]

Whereabouts in MD are people anticipating this clinic would be? When is also a factor - I will have more time to get to a clinic later in the summer. I an tentative about offering any help at this time, as I am about to start a new job and I'm not sure what my time constraints would be.

When and Where are important to determine ability to participate, though.

[eventrider]

From what I remember from our conversation, Lisa looks for a long forearm and short cannon, at least realtive to each other. She stears away from a neck with a dip in front of the wither, because usually it means you are going to struggle with a horse who uses the underside of his neck, coming out from the base. I am sure none of this is set in stone, but something to look at. The overall package and presence of a horse is equally important.

Christan

[ThreeDays]

Conformation evaluation takes time, practice and many hours looking at horses in front of you. Attempting to learn conformation fundamentals from photos alone will not help since many points of conformation that need to be addressed can only be accurately assessed while the horse is in motion. (For Example - a horse the stands pigeon toed at the stand may indeed travel correctly but you may actually find that the pigeon toe stance was a reflection of the narrow build and placement of the elbow that interferes with the horse in movement by pinching in and catching the rib cage).

The shape of the neck is determined by the S shape formed by the seven cervical vertebrae. A longer, flatter (more horizontal) configuration to the upper vertebrae results in a smoother attachment at the poll and thus more flexibility. The withers provide a place for the neck muscles and ligamentum nuchae to anchor and they should attach at the highest point of the withers; there should not be a dip in front of or behind the withers. (The withers act as a fulcrum. As a horse lowers and extends its neck, the back rises). The 'dip' in front of the withers becomes undesirable because it creates a disconnect between the front and hind end of the horse along the line of muscles that stretches the length of the horses' body from behind the poll to the LS joint.

Perhaps the most important conformational point to look at is the LS joint (lumbosacral) which should be positioned directly above the point of hip. The greater the deviation from this ideal position the great the loss of power transmission from the hind end. Chronic soreness is also usually the result of a poorly positioned LS joint.

Other important conformational points for consideration are the front end and the point of shoulder, humerus and elbow.

The length and ANGLE of the humerus makes a big difference in how the front end moves (even with the same shoulder length and angle). A steeper angle of the humerus = a higher point of shoulder; a longer humerus = longer stride.

There are a number of combinations that can work but the main thing is that you are striving for 'balance'. The horse with a straight shoulder will need a steeply angled humerus and the horse with a long scapula will need a shorter humerus and one with a bit of a slant upwards in order to have the same function.

Think of the sprinter Quarter Horse who will usually have a shorter humerus that is considerably angled upward - allowing the front end to get off the ground quickly.

Front legs placed well in front of the wither also helps with keeping weight off the forehand. Look at drawing a plum line down the center of the horse's front end center of balance - the line should be well in front of the wither.

Look also to the freedom of the elbow. If set too close in the elbow will rub against the ribcage and shorten stride (by applying pressure during the neutral position of the leg 'swing' and thus shortening the 'swing' phase of the opposite corresponding leg). Movement is then short and choppy. This also affects lateral work ability.

Points of conformation assessment can be difficult to discuss on paper (or BB alone). I personally have had conversations with Lisa Reid and Judy Wardrope in addition to many USDF conformation judges as well as breeding committee chairs and judges from different warmblood registries both here and abroad. Common consensus demonstrates that overall harmony and balance of conformation is paramount. Breaking down the 'reasons' for why certain ratios and types work is an art and skill that takes years to develop.

Judy Wardrope has written many many articles for various equine publications world wide and can be hired to perform lectures and seminars for very reasonable fees. Her background includes both race and sporthorse disciplines and she has experience with evaluating all breeds of horses. She has also been contracted to speak to breeding committees of many different breeds.

I would be happy to give her a call and discuss her availability to perform a seminar geared toward this groups focus if someone out there can offer to be a host with an adequate facility.

[sm]

there are also some of Judy's Functional Conformation articles here for everyone to read, bottom of page
http://www.jwequine.com/conformation.html

About this time I wonder what the top event horses' conformation actually is. It would be great to have an article by Judy (or by a USEA writer with Judy being interviewed so others can be interviewed as well) in the USEA magazine reviewing conformation on the top eventers from the USEA leaderboard:

1 Dobbin / Corinne Ashton (MA) (175.0)
2 Destination Known / Allison Springer (VA) (170.0)
3 McKinlaigh / Gina Miles (CA) (169.0)
4 Twizzel / Tivoli Farm (166.0)
5 Bailey Wick / Acorn Hill Farm (161.0)
6 Leyland / Elisabeth Nicholson (MI) (154.0)
7 Somerset II / Edith Rameika (VA) (152.0)
8 Cooper / Jennifer Brannigan (CA) (146.0)
8t Fleeceworks Mystere du Val / Beatrice Rey-Herme (CA) (146.0)
10 Amistad / Michele Mueller (Ontario) (145.0)

[Centuree]

If you've got the time and knowledge, you can find the right UL event horse at the track, but of course, it is more of a gamble (temperment and soundness wise).

My coach always says "it costs the same to keep a cheap horse as an expensive horse".

I don't have my own acreage, but pay a lot of money to board out. Therefore, as a rider with UL aspirations and one that gets too emotionally attached to their horses to sell if they don't turn into that amazing event horse, I would rather buy a purpose bred event horse from Denny or another local breeder for a lot more money than finding one at the track.

Yes, that usually means they are a combination of Tb and Wb breeding, and with todays modern format, I believe that can only help you.

As another side note that doesn't have much to do with this thread, I personally find it too heartbreaking perusing the shedrow of horses at the track. So many could have been great, but are now run into the ground and will soon be thrown away :(.

[Inuktik]

:) for Judy Wardrope. I have been to several of her lectures and she always walks everyone through her conformational analysis using several horses, so be prepared to be standing for awhile and actively involved in discussion and asking questions. She is down to earth and makes that "elusive third eye" almost reachable. Her website, as sm mentioned, is well worth checking out. She also has an ebook available for those who are interested, but her posted free articles are quite thorough.

GREAT discussion happening here, as a former YR who happily competed several OTTB's (& bred, raised competed TBs) 20 years ago, but as an adult re-rider (15 years out of the saddle), has just gotten a 1/2 hano, 1/2 TB warmblood (aka Canadian Warmblood). FWIW, my thoughts are that bringing along a youngster "from scratch" (such as a weanling) takes a lot of time and money, and that is if some one has a farm and can make their living working with horses full time. My family had to sell the farm years ago due to my father having a bad accident. Once that happened, my continued dream of raising and bringing along horses had to be put on hold. I am such a "control freak," that I vowed not to have horses again until I had my own place. I finally was able to get over that feeling as I met a lovely trainer who has the same anal tendencies that I do and I was able to get a 4 yo to bring along. I also am at the place career wise, that I can work my butt off and afford to pay her. My heading away from TBs was, unfortunately, based on the direction the sport has taken, though my fella does have a good dose in him. Many of my past happier moments were working on conditioning for the 3 day, and people use to buzz about "interval" training and what that meant to them. Okay ... I know that I just "dated" myself:)

[denny]

The best reason to try to develop that elusive "eye" for the hidden diamond (hidden under long hair, youth, poor condition, filth, etc) is because the purpose bred horses have to be way more expensive, if the breeder isn`t going to lose money.

There are lots of threads about the real costs of getting a foal on the ground, getting that foal to, say, age 4, and then what you`d have to get for that young horse to come out ahead, and it ain`t pretty.

But ex racehorses are, to their owners, in a way, "throwaway horses". They can no longer do what the owner wants, each day they are costing rather than making money, and the owner wants out.

So many of the very most talented and dedicated riders I know are not ABLE to buy purpose bred horses. They don`t have rich sponsors, the cheap ones are what they can afford.

So filtering through young TBs is one way to get a great horse. Sure, it`s lots easier to grab your sponsor`s fat wallet, and hop on a plane to Ireland, but failing that opportunity, develop your eye.

Great idea, the eye developing clinic idea.

[LAZ]

Conformation evaluation takes time, practice and many hours looking at horses in front of you. Attempting to learn conformation fundamentals from photos alone will not help since many points of conformation that need to be addressed can only be accurately assessed while the horse is in motion. (For Example - a horse the stands pigeon toed at the stand may indeed travel correctly but you may actually find that the pigeon toe stance was a reflection of the narrow build and placement of the elbow that interferes with the horse in movement by pinching in and catching the rib cage).

The shape of the neck is determined by the S shape formed by the seven cervical vertebrae. A longer, flatter (more horizontal) configuration to the upper vertebrae results in a smoother attachment at the poll and thus more flexibility. The withers provide a place for the neck muscles and ligamentum nuchae to anchor and they should attach at the highest point of the withers; there should not be a dip in front of or behind the withers. (The withers act as a fulcrum. As a horse lowers and extends its neck, the back rises). The 'dip' in front of the withers becomes undesirable because it creates a disconnect between the front and hind end of the horse along the line of muscles that stretches the length of the horses' body from behind the poll to the LS joint.

Perhaps the most important conformational point to look at is the LS joint (lumbosacral) which should be positioned directly above the point of hip. The greater the deviation from this ideal position the great the loss of power transmission from the hind end. Chronic soreness is also usually the result of a poorly positioned LS joint.

Other important conformational points for consideration are the front end and the point of shoulder, humerus and elbow.

The length and ANGLE of the humerus makes a big difference in how the front end moves (even with the same shoulder length and angle). A steeper angle of the humerus = a higher point of shoulder; a longer humerus = longer stride.

There are a number of combinations that can work but the main thing is that you are striving for 'balance'. The horse with a straight shoulder will need a steeply angled humerus and the horse with a long scapula will need a shorter humerus and one with a bit of a slant upwards in order to have the same function.

Think of the sprinter Quarter Horse who will usually have a shorter humerus that is considerably angled upward - allowing the front end to get off the ground quickly.

Front legs placed well in front of the wither also helps with keeping weight off the forehand. Look at drawing a plum line down the center of the horse's front end center of balance - the line should be well in front of the wither.

Look also to the freedom of the elbow. If set too close in the elbow will rub against the ribcage and shorten stride (by applying pressure during the neutral position of the leg 'swing' and thus shortening the 'swing' phase of the opposite corresponding leg). Movement is then short and choppy. This also affects lateral work ability.

Points of conformation assessment can be difficult to discuss on paper (or BB alone). I personally have had conversations with Lisa Reid and Judy Wardrope in addition to many USDF conformation judges as well as breeding committee chairs and judges from different warmblood registries both here and abroad. Common consensus demonstrates that overall harmony and balance of conformation is paramount. Breaking down the 'reasons' for why certain ratios and types work is an art and skill that takes years to develop.

Judy Wardrope has written many many articles for various equine publications world wide and can be hired to perform lectures and seminars for very reasonable fees. Her background includes both race and sporthorse disciplines and she has experience with evaluating all breeds of horses. She has also been contracted to speak to breeding committees of many different breeds.

I would be happy to give her a call and discuss her availability to perform a seminar geared toward this groups focus if someone out there can offer to be a host with an adequate facility.

This is an excellent post, thank you!

I would be happy to host a clinic, and I have a good facility for it--lots of stalls, good footing in outdoor & indoor arenas, an observation area, cross country jumps and show jumps and turn out for guest horses. I'm in central Indiana. If anyone in the area would be interested in participating I'd be delighted to host it.

I have about 15 OTTB's here that event, and have access to others, these range from not competing yet to a retired **** horse.

[ThreeDays]

The best reason to try to develop that elusive "eye" for the hidden diamond (hidden under long hair, youth, poor condition, filth, etc) is because the purpose bred horses have to be way more expensive, if the breeder isn`t going to lose money.

There are lots of threads about the real costs of getting a foal on the ground, getting that foal to, say, age 4, and then what you`d have to get for that young horse to come out ahead, and it ain`t pretty.

But ex racehorses are, to their owners, in a way, "throwaway horses". They can no longer do what the owner wants, each day they are costing rather than making money, and the owner wants out.

So many of the very most talented and dedicated riders I know are not ABLE to buy purpose bred horses. They don`t have rich sponsors, the cheap ones are what they can afford.

So filtering through young TBs is one way to get a great horse. Sure, it`s lots easier to grab your sponsor`s fat wallet, and hop on a plane to Ireland, but failing that opportunity, develop your eye.

Great idea, the eye developing clinic idea.

I certainly understand this point and have been in the shoes and have been the rider that looked for and found nice ex-race horses. I was lucky at the time to be in the race world working for good trainers like Dickie Small (Valley Crossing, Broad Brush, Concern etc) that had good stock.

The only way to not 'be had' at the back door of the track is to have an 'in' with the trainers and owners. It's easy to walk off with a delightful OTTB and be unsuspecting of nerving, ulcers or character issues. This is a high likelihood even with a good educated eye.

I'd be interested in some comparisons of total investment funds spent to buy an OTTB and bring it along to say solid prelim vs buying a well started 4yr old bred for the sport.

I haven't boarded horses or paid for full training board in some time. So what is the anticipated expense to buyers who buy OTTB vs young (purpose bred) prospect?

And furthermore - for those with experiences buying OTTB's. Did any of the horses you bought fail to live up to the expectations you had when you bought? Same for those who purchased 'purpose bred' prospects.

----------------------------------------------------


Maybe some of you can chime in and fill this out:

Purchase Price:

Training Board (# of months in professional training):

Board (monthly fee x months you've boarded before starting training):

Lessons:

Length of time it took to get your horse to Prelim:

Total Expense:

Satisfaction:

[NMK]

I am a little late to this discussion but wanted to bring up that at Area VIII Winona's USEA Event (May) Jackie (JFS) runs a first year OTTB and second year OTTB series as part of her YEH Series for 4 and 5 year olds. The OTTB's can be any age. It is sponsored by CANTER Ohio (and has some nice prizes by the way).

And while I agree with Denny that a good racehorse is also a good event horse (think Corageous Comet) there are plenty of good horses on the track that need new jobs. And lots of people with good intentions for them. That said, those that are the most successful at this are:

1. Realistic about their riding abilities
2. Not affected by bling
3 Good at conformation studies
4. Have lots of patience
5. Have lots of time
6. Know what questions to ask
7. Know what questions not to ask
8. Know legs and what they can risk, or not
9. Can read a horse's personality
10. Are emotionally detached

Those people are as hard to find as the horses themselves. So really, the fun lies (especially in this economy) with the personal satisfaction of making the best of what you have, and enjoying the ride.

Nancy

[Lori T]

What a great thread! I finally had some down time at work to read all the way through it! ( Iam too tired at night!)
I come from a jumper background and always had OTTB's because not only do I love the breed, but it was all I could afford. My daughter's mare, Impulsive, a TB who went as far as advanced with her former owner Jane Brownlow, is a typical TB...a month prior to her retirement last year, I felt she would be competing another 10 years, well into her 20's..she was so fresh schooling at the intermediate level! Man, she could jump and gallop (despite having bone chips and fragments in her knee, which according to the surgeon had been there awhile, but which she never indicated there was a problem until a month later and she came in from the pasture lame...which is another tribute of TB's...HEART). But she was of the "old school" type...she could run and jump, but Jen had to struggle with their dressage...it was attainable, but an effort. They were consistently scoring in the 30's with their best a 30. Her new eventer, an OTTB, reminds me alot of eventriders new OTTB. He did intermediate and we got him for the board bill, otherwise he was not affordable. But even though he did intermediate, he probably had no business doing it. Yep, he is a jumping fool, but between the jumps, he is a complete lunatic! I cannot imagine him doing dressage! He has become a project for Jen who is worried about finding enough time to ride him come next fall while taking 2nd year engineering classes.
I myself have a draftx, a PMU who shows lots of promise. Jon Holling really liked him at the intro to eventing clinic. He said I could do alot with him but I have absolutely no desire to compete at an upper level! Heck, right now, all I can think about is getting to novice!!
This thread has been very informative! Thanks for starting it!

[ZiggyStardust]

The only way to not 'be had' at the back door of the track is to have an 'in' with the trainers and owners. It's easy to walk off with a delightful OTTB and be unsuspecting of nerving, ulcers or character issues. This is a high likelihood even with a good educated eye.


This is what I would be afraid of. As an ammy who will probably only ever own one, maybe 2 horses in work, I happily would pay a middle woman with a good reputation and a good relationship with the track trainers/owners. Only helps if the middle woman puts a little training on the horse before I buy, too. In a roundabout way this is how I came to own the horse I have now.

[SEPowell]

Just wondering if anyone has kept records on the success of "purpose bred" horses in the area of their area of purpose? All race horses are purpose bred for racing, however many many of them do not race well. Is it possible that the same is true of other purpose bred horses?

[unclewiggly]

Hmm, I sold a wall running hyper horse to an accomplished event rider.
Not one of my H/J friends, investors, pin-hooker counter parts would touch him. He was wild in the Equisizer.
But oh the balance an symetry was so pleasing to the eye.
I bought him for pittance, sold him for a nice return on my investment.(under $5k)
He passed a rigorous vetting, w/ lots of x-rays.
The new owner wisely paid me to keep him 120 days to fully let him down in a peaceful non-stress enviorment.
Where I figured him out, got rid of the stall nerves. That was say April he ran his 1st 2 horse trials @ Aiken in November.
Ulcers are a given w/ 99.9% of all race horses. Now being nerved is a State required disclosure in the Form so no you won't get bit by that.
Probably more likely to hide wind issues, unless you go see/hear horse gallope, and chips, some just have no clue.
I was given a lovely but skinny nervous horse who had a bit of puffiness to one knee had it x-rayed it was perfect, but when I sold him later as a lovely Ammy Owner/Adult Eq horse he has a chip in the other knee that was just off to one side out of the way. Hasn't bothered him or the vetting.
I bought horses who failed the flex n jog pre purchase, but w/ enough time off the ankles remodeled the body soreness went away and horse passed full vetting scope n x-rays went on to a hugely successful career re-sold for 4.5 times what they paid. (just under $10K).
Its a crap shot even if you a purpose bred horse some what started. By teh time you figure
Feed,
Shoes,
Pro -rate your over head
Clinics
Lessons,
Entries, travel milage
Equipment
Vet bills
And hope to kiss a duck the horse has no injuries or unsoundness issues
regardless of the discipline its frightening..don't even want to know.
I factor $12.oo day w/o showing expenses or vet or farrier.
So the cheaper I can aquire a horse the shortest turn around time possible to a new home makes for happy happy all round.
And I am always happy to share the "eyeball" but sometimes what "Eye" sees no one else will until I've bought it, brought it home and let horse have time to get over the track.
More than one...Oh No I can't believe you bought that ...becomes OH wow where did you get it.
Or more tot he point when they trot down the long side of the ring or jump in teh free school.
and yes there are just as many Ugh OH's who look the part but can't walk the line.
Purpose bred or OTTB its the same, horse is a horse.

[Blugal]

Ok ThreeDays I'll bite... For the sake of this questionnaire, I am just adding up the expenses you mentioned, in Canadian dollars.

Horse 1 - 11 y.o. 16.1hh black gelding, former OTTB with extensive re-training (competing Pre-Training, schooling Training/easy Prelim), for sale because of college, got a deal b/c we knew someone and would give it a good home. Owned 1996-1999

Purchase Price: $4400 incl. vetting

Training Board (# of months in professional training): $0

Board (monthly fee x months you've boarded before starting training): $0

Lessons: mostly did clinics, with gas & stabling, figure $1200/year

Length of time it took to get your horse to Prelim: 18 months (bought in the fall, but gets winters off, started Prelim in May of 2nd season)

Total Expense: $6200 ($4.4K + 1.5 years of lessons, kept horse on our own property)

Satisfaction: Enormous, my first Prelim horse - also did Pony club, trail riding etc. Suspensory injury in Aug. of our 1st Prelim. season, rehabbed, ran around like a fool in turn-out and injured a different leg, rehabbed, practically gave away (good home) as a lower-level horse the following spring.

Horse 2 8 y.o. 16.2hh black gelding, was OTT then sat in a field and was ridden once a year. Skinny, sunburnt, no personality, no farrier work in so long he was lame all around. Had been approved by coach. Owned 1998-2005

Purchase Price: $2200

Training Board (# of months in professional training): $0

Board (monthly fee x months you've boarded before starting training): $0

Lessons: Clinics, but mostly was a working student. Let's say $500/yr.

Length of time it took to get your horse to Prelim: almost 3 (incl. winters off) - would have been nearer 2 years if not for a minor injury in July of 2nd year, which after a month off and a month's re-conditioning, the season was over

Total Expense: $3700

Satisfaction: Enormous - he went on to take me to 2-star, what a huge heart. Unfortunately he was accident-prone, my coach said she was glad he wasn't her re-sale project! I worked out by the time he finished his 2-star, with ALL expenses (vet, feed, entries, gas), I had put at least $35k in, probably closer to $40k.

Horse 3: 3 y.o. staight off the track. 3 races, useless, clean legs, 16.1hh (bum high), chestnut with 3 socks. Owned 2007-present

Purchase Price: $500

Training Board (# of months in professional training): $900 (1 month of "no bucking" and "you will go forward" from a cowboy)

Board (monthly fee x months you've boarded before starting training): $2000 (5 months of knowing he needed more turn-out & a bigger lunge area, or preferably a BIG hill & pony horse to discourage the bucking!! Hence he went to the cowboy at month 6 - would have been better off spending $500 to ship him to a big field somewhere for the winter and started him in the spring)

Lessons: $0 so far (will attend clinics in the future)

Length of time it took to get your horse to Prelim: Probably 2.5-3 (summer or fall 2010)

Total Expense: ~$7500 All expenses included (vet, food, farrier, board) to get a sane, filled-out 5 year old when I return in June. Hmmm, that cheap track horse doesn't seem so cheap any more.

Satisfaction: No risk, no return! The experience was worth it, and I do think I have a special horse (I am in love with his jump, and he has lovely paces) - He's now 16.2hh and no longer bum-high, and has the look of eagles.

So we'll see what this summer brings.

[ThreeDays]

I figured I would play the budgeting game myself. (I realize I'm getting off track - but since I went through the time to add up price ranges I figured I would share).
Hope the hubby doesn't peek!!

I keep horses at home but that doesn't mean there is no expense.
So figuring that

Feed ($12/bag)
Bedding ($7/bag)
Hay ($6/bale)
= 100-220/mo depending on the time of year
= $1200-2640/yr average (truth lays somewhere in these numbers)-----------

Lessons on average in my area $45/hr
= $2340/yr if once a week ($1170/yr if every other week)So - $2370 - $4980/ year in 'boarding' & lessons

Extras:

Professional training (on average) is about $1000/mo for young horses
Farrier care varies greatly from $175/yr is barefoot and $1400/yr with simple uncomplicated shoes
Insurance
(Show bills are an entirely different thread)
Ok - I realize I just took this to another level and didn't answer my own question which was posed earlier - :lol:

[Blugal]

I didn't include feed, shoeing etc. in the part where I answered your analysis, because those costs will be the same whether you buy off the track or "purpose-bred." In fact, my clinic costs would have been the same with the two older horses as well.

The biggest difference that I can see is that my original purchase prices were cheap for Horses 1 & 2, compared to what you'd pay for a "purpose-bred" of the same age, size & training.

As far as training costs, in my fairly limited experience, I've seen a lot more "purpose bred" WBs needing months at the cowboy's than I've seen OTTBs. But your mileage may vary ;)

[subk]

The only way to not 'be had' at the back door of the track is to have an 'in' with the trainers and owners. It's easy to walk off with a delightful OTTB and be unsuspecting of nerving, ulcers or character issues. This is a high likelihood even with a good educated eye.
My own personal experiences of buying directly off the track would not bear this statement out. I've done it twice now and both horses, bought from different trainers, were very accurately represented. None the less, I just this month purchased a young purpose bred TB.

While the time and cost involved in getting either a purpose bred or an OTTB to preliminary is an interesting exercise, for me it doesn't matter in the least. I'm much more interested in the journey than worried as to when I'll arrive. It's the process.

[Toomanycats]

Good thread. My 2 cents...

I think the biggest problem for adult amateurs who live in the "real world" is that none of us can afford to lay out $10-$20K for a purpose-bred, well-started horse from a pro. The cheap OTTB is the only way for a lot of us to go. I absolutely refuse to go into debt to buy a horse, if I can't pay cash, I'm not buying. As we all know, buying a horse isn't the big expense, it's owning one, so if I go into debt to buy one, there's no money left to maintain it.

My current horse came thru Mid Atlantic Horse Rescue. Bev and Ginny get them from New Holland. I paid $2K to adopt her, plus maybe an additional $600 or so to have her vetted. I own her outright, that's the way Mid Atlantic works, they don't retain ownership. Bev gets on the horses, so she has some idea of the level of soundness and their temperament, and I was able to try her before adopting her, so it's a lot less risky than buying off the track directly. I would have a real problem buying something that I couldn't sit on first, so I don't see me going to the track to purchase a horse. And Bev has a great eye for ability and, more importantly, temperament. My horse was a raving lunatic at New Holland, but Bev saw the potential. Sure she has some quirks, they all do, but none that I'm not willing to put up with, because she has a heart of gold and really tries to be good. And she's FUN, which is why I ride in the first place.

So how much do I have in her? Well, at least $10-20K in the 3.5 years I've owned her, maybe more, between board and farrier/vet bills and lessons, but the big difference for me is the money is spread out over months. I didn't have to lay out that $10-20K all at once. She needs joint injections and adequan to keep her going, but my friend's TB who never raced needs the same thing, and he's younger, so I don't consider that a problem unique to OTTBs, that's just maintenance. She has one ugly hind pastern that really worried me, but that's the only joint that hasn't given her problems (and yes I know I just jinxed myself). She's a bit long in the back, a bit over at the knee, amongst other things, but she's a lovely mover and has an amazing jump.

I'm a competent enough rider that I was able to start her myself and have brought her up to training now. Will we make it to prelim? I don't know, she has the scope, but maybe not the mentality for the technical courses of today. I think she's probably old-style, gallop and jump, dressage is hard but is getting better. I'm sure a pro could easily get her to prelim, and she'd probably already be there by now, but I could care less if we top out at training. For me, the joy is in bringing her along, learning as we go together and just having her in my life. And I'll do the same thing all over again when it's time to retire her and start with the next one. It's the only way I can afford a horse. And all my friends are in exactly the same boat. And if any of us actually had $20K sitting around doing nothing, we STILL wouldn't spend it on a horse. We live in the real world.

[sm]

Think we need a free database on available talent (people). Does anyone know:

- the name of the guy that finds Phillip Dutton's horses? He works out of the Charlestown Track. I think I remember (weird thing to remember so may be faulty) that he was mentioned in the COTH Eventing Horse of The Year article on The Foreman, but I can't find that article in the COTH archives. "Chip" was also overall USEF Horse of the Year -- but I remember reading it in the COTH article.

- where is Michelle Oren, used to be head trainer at Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation. On rehabbing and significance of injuries, what a privileged point of view this woman has! She is a huge talent for eyeing a track sore horse, seeing what rehab they need, and basic retraining for a next suitable career.

I am reasonably confident I can connect with Amy Tryon's camp to get the name of the person who preselects most of Amys OTTBs.

Elizabeth Wood is great, but her OTTBs don't get beat up to the point of needing to ID a diamond in the rough. They leave the track before any downhill spiral, Elizabeth deals with caring track trainers http://www.bitsandbytesfarm.com/

[camohn]

[QUOTE=ThreeDays;3926585]I certainly understand this point and have been in the shoes and have been the rider that looked for and found nice ex-race horses. I was lucky at the time to be in the race world working for good trainers like Dickie Small (Valley Crossing, Broad Brush, Concern etc) that had good stock.

The only way to not 'be had' at the back door of the track is to have an 'in' with the trainers and owners. It's easy to walk off with a delightful OTTB and be unsuspecting of nerving, ulcers or character issues. This is a high likelihood even with a good educated eye.

I'd be interested in some comparisons of total investment funds spent to buy an OTTB and bring it along to say solid prelim vs buying a well started 4yr old bred for the sport.

I haven't boarded horses or paid for full training board in some time. So what is the anticipated expense to buyers who buy OTTB vs young (purpose bred) prospect?

Well the problem as a breeder is that especially in this lousy economy it is not hard to get an OTT for 1500 to 3500 and in some cases even free. For me to breed my mare I am looking at 1500 for a stud fee before I even see a vet bill and with the stud fee, vet bills and feed IF the mare takes on one cover I will be lucky to put that foal on the ground for 3500. In areas of the country where feed is more expensive that here it is worse. So it probably costs me 7,500 to raise that foal to 4 years old (not including any money for my time etc....thats just actual feed costs...and of course by 4 it has probably started in training too.) So.....say 10K to get the horse to 4 years old and going 90 days under saddle. I definitely have had folks grouse at the fact I am asking over 5K for my purpose bred 4 YO TB when they can get an OTT for under that. I just tell them that he was bred for a job NOT on the track, he was not started at 2 and has no track hangups to reschool. If they are on a smaller budget and can reschool an OTT or want to save an OTT that needs an new job more power to them.....but my horse is not at fire sale prices because he has not failed at his intended job yet. That is WHY the OTT is cheap. His owner is already losing money on him if he can't run. Just because he can't run does not mean he can't jump....just that he can't do his originally intended job.

[ZiggyStardust]

I am reasonably confident I can connect with Amy Tryon's camp to get the name of the person who preselects most of Amys OTTBs.


sm, Janet von Pressentin purchased the OTTB's that came through the facility where Amy trains. She actually purchased my beast off the track, which is partly why I've followed the careers of her other critters a bit over the last few years. She purchased Leyland off the track (and Coal Creek, too, I think). I was actually just noticing the Ram Tap article in this week's COTH somewhat erroneously states that Amy purchased Leyland off the track. I believe Janet had him for sale before Amy/the Nicholsons bought him.

I am not in touch much with that barn anymore, but I think Janet may have recently moved out of state (or at least her dressage horse did).

ETA: I don't think I am disclosing anyone's super secret business here, as Janet has photos of many of her past sale horses on her website. I think she also helped Amy find Poggio.

[eyesontheground]

I just read this thread from beginning to end and I am geeked at the idea of an "eye development" clinic.

Great discussion guys...keep it up!!

[ThreeDays]

Well the problem as a breeder is that especially in this lousy economy it is not hard to get an OTT for 1500 to 3500 and in some cases even free. For me to breed my mare I am looking at 1500 for a stud fee before I even see a vet bill and with the stud fee, vet bills and feed IF the mare takes on one cover I will be lucky to put that foal on the ground for 3500. In areas of the country where feed is more expensive that here it is worse. So it probably costs me 7,500 to raise that foal to 4 years old (not including any money for my time etc....thats just actual feed costs...and of course by 4 it has probably started in training too.) So.....say 10K to get the horse to 4 years old and going 90 days under saddle. I definitely have had folks grouse at the fact I am asking over 5K for my purpose bred 4 YO TB when they can get an OTT for under that. I just tell them that he was bred for a job NOT on the track, he was not started at 2 and has no track hangups to reschool. If they are on a smaller budget and can reschool an OTT or want to save an OTT that needs an new job more power to them.....but my horse is not at fire sale prices because he has not failed at his intended job yet. That is WHY the OTT is cheap. His owner is already losing money on him if he can't run. Just because he can't run does not mean he can't jump....just that he can't do his originally intended job.

Thanks for jumping in!

Not too many breeders posting on this and as a breeder myself I'm always interested in hearing from those with common interests.

You're in a bit of a different boat than I with breeding sport based Thoroughbreds. I wish the market for sport bred thoroughbreds was stronger because I think we truly need them. However it must be quite a challenge to be competing against free or less than $5k OTTB market.

Off the BB's when talking to trainers and riders I get a totally different impression than the discussions that are being had here.

Maybe its the type of riders and trainers?

I had posed some questions wondering if OTTB owners/ buyers had to invest more time and money then purpose bred owners/ buyers. The consensus on this thread says that the OTTB owners are investing maybe 1-3yrs to get up to their goal achievements. And are happy with the results.

Personal discussions I've had with owners and trainers reveals a totally different outcome. And this group is looking for their next horse to come from a breeder or established trainer because of the disappointment with lost time and money and not having achieved their goals.

[denny]

If anyone wants to set up a horse evaluation clinic, and you need a place to run it, we have a farm in Vt and one in NC, and I`m sure that we could find a time that would work at either place.

Probably Virginia or Maryland would be more central, but if you need something, let me know.

[unclewiggly]

I have a farm in Maryland and always lots of OTTB's along w/ a ring and a small free jump paddock.
Glad to assist, donate location and beast, very close to Fair Hill.
Anybody want to help????????????

[LexInVA]

This is starting to look good. Get some sellers/breeders/whatever applies, a group of buyers, some talented professional eyes, a good number of horses, and a whole lot of fried chicken, you got a recipe for greatness.

[BritNativePony]

I have a question.
Is the attraction to OTTBs because they are cheap? Or is there more to it? The only other thing I can think about that would be based in fact and not tradition would be that they were purpose bred for a speed based sport. However, this positive trait is often outweighed by the negative of having failed at their purpose and likely accumulated injuries.

I'm just curious as to why, if it comes down to being cheap and generally able to be successful in eventing, do people restrict themselves to OTTBs. OTTBs aren't the only horses who by and large can be found for less than 5k and who might have attributes that make them candidates for eventing. I'd also wager that there are just as many TBs out there who would be unsuitable for eventing, as there are non-TBs who would be unsuitable for eventing. Plus, non OTTB type horses that share the same physical attributes often come untarnished from the track, and you don't have the added trouble of viewing them/worrying about being 'had' by anone in the track community who views you as fresh-meat.

I am really enjoying this thread, and have owned and worked with OTTBs in the past.. I'm just genuinely curious, because I see only two choices discussed here that seem to be polarized: Purpose bred sport horse that is unaffordable OR OTTB.

Oh, and for the record I would definitely fall into the group who, for a number of reasons, would be shopping in the bargain basement range of prices.

Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to share their thoughts...

[unclewiggly]

It really breaks down to what you can afford and what mindset you can ride.
Its not that one is better than the other is about afforability and rideability:yes: Also the region and where you ride.

Having evented back in the dinasour days on all sorts of not for any purpose breed horse, when I got a TB any TB it was a great joy.
Better broke, w/ n w/O brakes, better work ethic and generally tougher.Asthecially pleasing dressage test. More willing to get up out of bed after a long day of partying and give 100% all over again.
I flirted w/ a fancy WB but between his dubiose reliabilty to remain sound and his crap work ethic I choose to go back to my 1st passion TB's.
Since I no longer have any bravery left to jump, I sell:).
Yes the price is a huge factor, but honestly where else are you going to find such a broad varity of horses, size conformation age @ such realistic prices? If they've survived racing and are pretty much physically and mentally intact you've gotten a horse already road tested,wind tunneled, the tires kicked and engine broke in.
If the horse is correct, and sane the largest expenses have already been put out, stud fee, foaling to breaking.So if you spend say $1500 - $3500. and if the horse hasn't that Prelim talent you should know pretty soon on, cut your looses and sell for a better suited career or enjoy competing well @ the level best suited.
Its not that the horse was a failure @ his racing his purpose, its more like not everybody can be 1st. Somebody has to be last, and not everyone wants to jump out of a gate get jostled round and then live in a stall 23 hours a day.
If the horse breaks down early on lots of time the root cause is to fast to soon,to young, long toes and bad surface any of those is a recipe for a bow or soft tissue injury.
Remember regardless of foal date they all age 1 year, January 1 and some of those late foals get the short end of the stick. The same can happen in any sport @ that tender age.
Bad conformation is just plain bad conformation regardless of the breed.
Purpose breeds or combinations of can give you more bone, better work ethic conformation hopefully predisposed for dscipline and occasionally a super star.
The trouble is to replicate that over and over or clone it is tough. Something will eventually get lost in the genetic code or diluted down after years of repetition.Since you are crossing breeds.
With a much broader base and many many more years of breeding way more TB's we have a better feel of what lines work and don't.
I love Private Account and Grand Slam breeding personally top or bottom, I don't care for Two Punch or Nijinsky.
The same reason we all buy diffrent brand trucks or rigs, they do same job, its a personal prefrence and most of the time the "Wallet" factor".

As far as being "Taken" your just as likely to get sc***ed buying from a Dealer/Trainer as you are the racetrack. There' a reason they are selling the horse and not competing it themselves. No not all the time but you don't get the cream of the crop most of the time. Because its advantageous to showcase and compete your best to create a market base for the rest.
Or you have to pay thru the nose for it.
The guys @ the track and again not all but for the most part don't want you call up Bit**ng and complaining if the horse is lame.
Ask the right questions, be smart, ask on the board for someone to go w/ you. Its no diffrent than buying a purpose breed unbroke horse you can't ride.
If you really want the horse go on a Saturday, if you like ask to see horse gallope Sunday AM bring your trailer and cash. There are vets on the grounds everyday who can do a ppe. Tell them up front you will be pulling blood to store for tox screen. Usually weeds the scammers out. Ask to arrive early and see horse tacked up and walk to track.
Sorry my soapbox, but like cars why have so many new mdels designed every year? When there is a lot full to choose from.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Need to get your hands on some of these OTTBs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iczp0nybP5M). My god but that man has some smashing looking horses in his care. Some lovely looking specimens.

[camohn]

I have a farm in Maryland and always lots of OTTB's along w/ a ring and a small free jump paddock.
Glad to assist, donate location and beast, very close to Fair Hill.
Anybody want to help????????????

Well since I am close to Fair Hill I would like that one!

As to why OTTs? Yes, price is a big part. It pretty much comes down to the fact you can buy a horse OTT cheaper than you can breed and raise it up yourself. Why TB's more tha other breeds? Better work ethic (on the whole more naturally forward than many WBs and have generally been bred for endurance. Of course the endurance issue was bigger with the long format than the short format which now favors WBs more). TBs were bred for speed (good canter) and endurance. SOME TBs are well suited to dressage, many not so much....so with more emphasis on dressage now again, tends to suit the WB more. That kinda gets to the "developing an eye" thing that those dressagey TBs ARE out there to be found. And in fact they are usually the ones most likely to fail at the track. Suspension of movement is less efficient movement. Among OTTs there are certainly are trends in breeding. Ones bred from Mahmoud (espcially The Axe) tend to be calmer/more dressagey types. Bold Ruler lines tend to be super all around athletes with a bold but hotter more sensitive nature so weather that suits a certain rider or not depends on what they are comfortable riding. On the whole the Alydars can jump like heck. There are similarly bloodlines noted for fragile legs, leg (or foot) confo and soundness issues that I would avoid. Also, not all TBs are similar in type. A TB bred for the turf or distance races does NOT look like a 4 to 6f sprinter type. If it runs like a QH it usually looks like a QH and the sprinter lines tend NOT to be your eventer/jumper prospects.
The TB broodmare I have had are all OTTs with varying types and stories.
1) first an OTT that became and eventer with a friend's daughter. Daughter left for college/gave up riding/mom not horsey: gave me the horse as she knew it would have a good home here. Horse did not end up staying. She was too hot and reactive. Talent? Yes. But if she throws that really reactive personality it is a hard horse to sell. It is not what MOST folks want to buy. Reserve champion at her WB inspection against WB mares.

2) OTT that was purchase by her previous owner as a hunter prospect. Near flawless confo, super hunter mover. Lady tried her as a hunter but she had knee chips from the track that got sore with jumping/would not stay jumping sound. I do not consider knee chips from being run at 2 to be a genetic issue.....that is from being pushed too hard too young. Reserve champion at her WB inspection against WB mares. Foals doing A circuit hunters.

3) OTT that went on to be a successful A circuit hunter and ended up here as a BM when she developed hock issues form years of racing (since 2) then years of jumping. Also fine with me: she was serviceably sound for a long time.

4) OTT made one (unplaced) start, came from a farm where the owners were retiring from racing/selling off all stock. The only mare that is not well bred on paper....but built like a Mack truck for bone and build. She also got the hotter Bold Ruler tude. She has had 2 quiet sons and 2 hot fillies so far. The chicks seem to favor her, the boys the sires. Has a couple confo flaws that prevent her from scoring well at WB inspections but her kids can jump like heck. First foal: top 10 at dressage at Devon, second is eventing, third is a hunter, fourth is going to be a yearling in April and has been leaping fences here at the farm since pre weaning.
mare
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=AnnieRight407Reduced.jpg
her last 2 foals....
Now 4 YO TB (shown here doing FEH at 2)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=Buckfeh651.jpg
her coming yearling filly (the fence leaper) by Waldaire
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=4HPics08039.jpg
5) OTT that has a gold plated pedigree for racing (was probably a REALLY expensive yearling back in the day) and came from a top TB farm in KY. Kept getting sold down the ranks cheaper since she did not actually run well. The is the dressagey one of the lot. Inspectors comments at WB inspection: if she had not been a racehorse she would have made a really nice dressage prospect.
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=IMG_6292.jpg
keep in mind she is 22 years old here....
her 08 foal (WB cross by Waldaire)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=IMG_6436.jpg

6) OTT that retired sound of the track after something like nearly 100 starts then was a 4' jumper until her retirement from hock DJD.She is a half sister to number 5, which is why I snapped her up when I saw her ad for sale!


All are well bred from sporthorse lines except number 4. Her breeding is nothing special up front( 1st 3 generations)/She is Native Dancer and Bold Ruler 4 generations back. She is also the "least well put together" but the kids are leapers none the less!

I am missing a lot of pics of the other mares and their foals as the pics were on my old computer which died. The computer shop geek thinks he can recover them so I need to get my puter into the shop to see if he can do that.

The mares were bred to a mix of Paint, TB and WB stallions so some of their foals are TBs and some are crosses. For reasons noted with competing agaist OTT prices: it is easier to sell other crosses for better money.
We also stood a sport bred (AKA unraced) TB stallion and he sired a dozen foals prior to his premature death from a broken leg in a freak stall accident back in 06.
His pics:
at 2
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=WildByDesignCroppedConfo.jpg
at 3 (RPSI WB inspection)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomerJump.jpg
at 4 (40 days u/s)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomertrotOct05-1.jpg

Some of his foals:
2 YO colt out of a Paint mare (50% TB)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=AdamHUSat2-1.jpg
Yearling colt o/o a Paint/TB cross mare (73% TB)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=4HPics08038.jpg
same colt pre weaner
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomerJuniorJuly07005.jpg
TB filly
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=DJHugs.jpg
TB colt (he was a month premature/dam had placentitis so looks a little runty....)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=Fred15days2.jpg
TB yearling
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=cocoa07jpg.jpg
and her TB newborn full sister
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=07Boomerfilly1month.jpg
TB filly
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=LilyTrot2days.jpg
TB weanling
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=pattrot1.jpg
Paint/TB cross filly (87%TB); this one actually has jumped out of a 6' board fenced pasture at 2!
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=LeahWalk1dayold.jpg
2 YO TB (shown earlier)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=Buckfeh651.jpg
and same dude at 3 (winter woolies in early spring)
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BuckMarch082.jpg

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Onces bred from Mahmoud (espcially The Axe) tend to be clamer/more dressagey types.

???
Of the 87 runners at Aqueduct yestersday, 82 were descended from Mahmoud, most multiple lines. That's 94.5%, and probably holds true for the general TB population.
Having Mahmoud in a pedigree means nothing much.

[camohn]

In regards to the OTTs for sport: "It's no diffrent than buying a purpose breed unbroke horse you can't ride."
I do disagree with that. First, a lot of the reason the OTTs have soundness issues is that they are started pretty heavily at 2. Too young.....especially from the later to mature lines.....so it DOES predispose them to injury at a young age. Sporthorse breeders may lightly back a 2 YO, most wait until 3 and the horses are not ridden heavily until 4. Their racing counterpart is racing full out at an early 3. The other is that it is rare that race buyers buy race prospects bred by unraced (sporthorse) stallions. Pretty much the occasional sporthorse breeder that decided to take a crack at running one of their homebreds. Race buyers want proven running sires. Period. OTOH since there are few sport TB stallions sport TB riders need to sift through racehorses to find a good prospect. They do not have the advantage of a proven sport TB sire except for a handful of stallions. 95% of your TBs are bred to run.

[camohn]

???
Of the 87 runners at Aqueduct yestersday, 82 were descended from Mahmoud, most multiple lines. That's 94.5%, and probably holds true for the general TB population.
Having Mahmoud in a pedigree means nothing much.

How far back it is is of course important.
Most probably don't look like this mare of mine:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pirates+widow

I bet Mahmoud is NOT in the third generation of most of those young whippersnappers!

Another point with sportbreds: generally the breeder has bred with an eye towards temperment as well as talent. Temperment is not a big consideration in race breeding.

I am not saying that the sportbred TB is genetically better. Being a closed stud book you ARE working with a lot of the same gene pool. What traits are "bred for" or against and the environment/early training 2 similarly bred TBs will see CAN make a difference though.

[unclewiggly]

In regards to the OTTs for sport: "It's no diffrent than buying a purpose breed unbroke horse you can't ride."I do disagree with that.

You have gotten the context incorrect.
If you go to buy an unbroken horse obviously you cannot ride it.
You must use your judgement about conformation, way of going and mind.

Same when you go to the track, you can not ride the horse.

Interesting note, alot of TB stallions used for SporsHorse breeding programs maynot have been the best race horses (regardless of pedigree). Reason they aren't being used as race purpose breeding stallions.

WB's mature @ an entirely diffrent rate their orginal breed purpose was entirely diffrent, while a horse is a horse they are like Apples to Oranges in rate of growth and maturety. But thats not to say they can't do the same sports discipline.

[unclewiggly]

Need to get your hands on some of these OTTBs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iczp0nybP5M). My god but that man has some smashing looking horses in his care. Some lovely looking specimens.

Drive up to Fair Hill Training Center, watch the horses from Graham Motions barn going to track or drive around the bend to watch Michael Matz's horses walking along the path to track.

Thats better than shopping for shoes:)

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Drive up to Fair Hill Training Center, watch the horses from Graham Motions barn going to track or drive around the bend to watch Michael Matz's horses walking along the path to track.



Big difference is everything in Matz's barn is bred to run less than 10f, very few will ever run more that 8.5 or 9f in their lifetimes. Motion might have a higher percentage of Turf runners in his barn, but middle distance at most.
By contrast, everything in Paul Nichol's string is bred with the expressed purpose of running 2 to 4 miles AND to jump 4'+. That's kind of a big part of what an eventer has to do.

Let's break it down.

OTTB off backside of US track...
Bred with Dressage as a consideration - No
Bred with jumping a technical SJ course as a consideration - No
Bred to gallop a distance of ground - No
Bred to jump over 4' at galloping pace - No
Given time to mature - No, generally backed as yearlings and start racing at as 2yos.

NH bred TB
Bred with Dressage as a consideration - No
Bred with jumping a technical SJ course as a consideration - No, but are bred to jump
Bred to gallop a distance of ground - Yes
Bred to jump over 4' at galloping pace - Yes
Given time to mature - Yes, generally not backed till they are 3 or 4 and start racing when they are 4 or 5yos.

Seems like you be ahead of the game getting your hands on a NH bred TB.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

How far back it is is of course important.
Most probably don't look like this mare of mine:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pirates+widow

I bet Mahmoud is NOT in the third generation of most of those young whippersnappers!


Which is precisley the point.
Anyone buying a young event prospect of the track will a) more than likely find a horse that is descended from Mahmoud, as we've established almost all TBs have him b) and Mahmoud will be a zillion generations back. So what's the point is telling someone to look for Mahmoud in a pedigree? Almost every TB has Mahmoud, that includes the CCI**** ones as well as the ones that couldn't jump an 18" cross rail. It doesn't narrow the field down at all, so I don't see how it's helpful.

[camohn]

It just means folks should not be looking 8 generations back when looking at a pedigree. I totally agree with you on that point. When using pedigreequery you can keep clicking on links to go back to the beginning of the studbook for a horse and make the case that every good jumper TB goes back to Darley Arabian (and have it be true) but it also does not make much sense to do so.
Personally I look at horses on paper like this: it is a good bet if the horse has at least one known good jumper/sporthorse producer in the first 3 generations. I only consider it a "good" pedigree if I have to go back to generations 4 and 5 but then every horse IN the 4th and 5th generation is really good....and especially if it includes some older/harder to find ones nowadays like Spy Song, Double Jay, Bonne Nuit/Twist lines etc. Probably the one exception I had to that was one mare I had. After I got her I did look at her 8 generation pedigree and if you went back that far she has TEN crosses to Nearco. Now with a horse that heavy on the linebreeding you probably ARE going to see Nearco The Younger! But normally do I care what is 100 years and 8 generations back? No.

[camohn]

Anyway......though the OTT tangent has been interesting.....back to the OPs post: would horses that were competitive years ago still be competitive today (be it TB or WB or ID or whatever breed.......) probably some yes and some no because of the dressage phase being more important now. Some of the horses that are really good leapers have steeper than ideal shoulders or hocks. It does not seem to affect their jumping ability but it WILL affect their reach/quality of movement for the dressage scores.

[subk]

I suspect that the "limitations" some think yesterday's horses would have in today's dressage ring are as much a matter in how we train and focus on dressage today in way's we didn't back then. Dang, the word used to be that the Kiwi's didn't even bother with dressage training until a horse proved it could jump around Intermediate. Horses were "bad" at dressage because since it didn't count so much you spent your time on other things.

Take those horses today and rethink how they are trained on the flat and yes, I think more of them would be competitive today than our modern horses would have been competitive 20 years ago!

[ThreeDays]

Anyway......though the OTT tangent has been interesting.....back to the OPs post: would horses that were competitive years ago still be competitive today (be it TB or WB or ID or whatever breed.......) probably some yes and some no because of the dressage phase being more important now. Some of the horses that are really good leapers have steeper than ideal shoulders or hocks. It does not seem to affect their jumping ability but it WILL affect their reach/quality of movement for the dressage scores.

I agree.

Some of the superstars of yester - year would still be adept at the sport today but I think a majority of them would be dusted by the more complex jumping combos and questions and would most certainly suffer from less than desirable dressage tests.

What impact does this have at the end of the day? It means we're back to the drawling board to define what young prospects will go on to achieve upper level success.

It also means that the conformation types and bloodlines that defined the horses from the old format will not apply anymore. (In most cases).

This conversation can be had out of both sides of the mouth. In that I mean there is a clear difference in the type of horse a career amateur vs professional upper level rider is looking for. But that has usually been the case no matter what era of eventing you are talking about.

So I guess the point is - I will always admire and hold dearly in my heart the heroes who graced the traditional long format. But breaking down who and what they were and where they came from no longer has much significance in way the current sport if being played.

[subk]

...but I think a majority of them would be dusted by the more complex jumping combos and questions...
Why would you think that the older style TB can't do the technical XC? Dressage I can understand but I don't see the jumping problem you do...

[poltroon]

This following is just a possible theory, one I`m not sure is correct, but seems likely.

We are pretty sure, aren`t we, that many eventers in the 2009 era either don`t want to make up their own horses from scratch, or don`t know how to?
(I`ve certainly heard that said plenty.)

If so, why is that?

Possibilities:
1.Too spoiled, lazy, etc-----OR,

2.No longer live "out in the country", because there isn`t any open country nearby to live in---

3.So, logically following no.2, these riders haven`t "grown up" in and around horses at all stages of their development, so they`ve never learned HOW to make up a baby----

4.So they need a broke, ready to go horse, not out of laziness, but because they lack the knowledge/opportunity to do it the old fashioned way.

I`d bet that while, sure, there are little princes and princesses who won`t get their little hands dirty, the main reason is these huge demographic shifts in the way Americans live, as we`ve gone from a still semi-agrarian society in the 40s and 50s, even 60s, to an urban, suburban society in the 21st century.

Maybe we need to figure out how to teach self reliance, as in how to turn a weanling into a 1 star horse (and up), the way we "oldies but goodies" took totally for granted, because we had no other options?

I think one of the realities is that to keep a horse in an urban area is so very, very expensive that the purchase price of the horse is literally the least of it. When board plus one lesson a week is $1500 a month, the horse is eating $20k a year.

Most amateurs are spending a lot of time working earning the money to pay those bills, and a lot of them don't want to risk getting hurt on a young horse. And when the monthly bill is so large, having a $500 horse that doesn't work out isn't a bargain. So, for them the equation is, wait 6 months and buy a nicer horse.

On the other hand, out in the country, it costs very little to add one more horse. An inexpensive horse that doesn't work out isn't such a big deal - it can go in the back pasture for $500 a year.

For a professional, especially a young pro, it's a tradeoff: do you locate in the urban area, where the students are, or do you locate in the rural area, where the land is affordable?

[camohn]

I think one of the realities is that to keep a horse in an urban area is so very, very expensive that the purchase price of the horse is literally the least of it. When board plus one lesson a week is $1500 a month, the horse is eating $20k a year.

Most amateurs are spending a lot of time working earning the money to pay those bills, and a lot of them don't want to risk getting hurt on a young horse. And when the monthly bill is so large, having a $500 horse that doesn't work out isn't a bargain. So, for them the equation is, wait 6 months and buy a nicer horse.

On the other hand, out in the country, it costs very little to add one more horse. An inexpensive horse that doesn't work out isn't such a big deal - it can go in the back pasture for $500 a year.

For a professional, especially a young pro, it's a tradeoff: do you locate in the urban area, where the students are, or do you locate in the rural area, where the land is affordable?
This is kinda where a thread Denny started about a year ago ended up.......that one was "how to market young eventing prospects to event riders". The gist of that very long thread pretty much ended up that you can market babies (pre riding age) to folks out in the country with the space to raise them affordably but that a large portion of the riding public rides out of a boarding stable in the suburbs and at the cost of board per month ya just are not going to get those folks to buy a horse not of riding age.

[BritNativePony]

I just wanted to say 'thanks' to those that indulged my OTT tangent.... especially you, UncleWiggly and Camohn - what extensive posts!

Anyway, I agree with much of what was said. From a business perspective success is all about streamling time and costs. Therefore, utilizing a one-stop-shop like the thoroughbred industry makes sense. I guess I'm was just curious and really coming from my own paradigm. I'm someone who hopes to be competitive to at least prelim, I'm on a budet, and I also just happen to want to try to find something that's not a TB (there's a long story to this, but it doesn't have to do with conflicts with the TB type, I actually really get along well with and love OTTBs). I think there are a lot of people like me though.. working on a budget, wanting to do more than just the lower levels, and of a bit of a 'do it yourself' mentality with some confidence. As an individual looking to buy just one horse, I think there are tons of other inexpensive outlets (what about standardbreds or other "less popular breeds"? ) that would take no more effort for a person like me to tap into. I was genuinely curious if this was due to superficial reasons like "trends", or if there was something else I didn't know. I am a major fan of OTTBs, and will be the first to discuss their work ethic, athletic abilities, and heart. Lots of other types of horses share those characteristics too though, and are easier to find (for the individual buyer) and more likely to be started later or suffer less physical strain.

I hope this didn't seem totally off topic... in my head it wasn't :) It's just that I see the types of TBs that are available today, I understand how the eventing horses of yesteryear were great but might not be so great today, and I just see a bit of a disconnect between what regular riders need today, what outlets seem to be the most popular, and the most common 'problems' identified with those choices.

[RunForIt]

Simply posted to say, I loved Epic Win...would love to ride him now in MY 50s (and that's a decade that is coming to an end :lol: )...he and Eagle Lion have always been my fantasy horses. :cool:

[Whisper]

BritNativePony, I think it's just that OTTBs and purpose-bred sporthorses (usually warmblood, TB, ISH, maybe Connemara) tend to be the most common/popular at the upper levels. I'm sure there are individuals of other breeds that would be fine, but a lot of people want bloodlines with a track record of doing well/producing well at the upper levels of eventing, especially for prospects.

Personally, I could not bring along an OTTB straight off the track, but have had wonderful experiences with TBs who are older, with or without previous track training. While I'm a fan of their heart, sensitivity (in a good way, most are able to filter out what I want from what I don't want), work ethic, forwardness, love of jumping, etc., I'm not at all breed biased. I would need a horse who has a history of doing at least a lot of BN, preferably at least Novice, since I'm relatively new to eventing. I feel it's very important for at least one of the two to know what they're doing!

Currently, I get to ride a few horses for free whenever the weather cooperates and I have time. One QH, one Araloosa, one Paint, and a 3 y/o Appy filly (only with supervision, in her case). None of them know how to event, though I did get one XC outing in with the Paint, that went fairly well.

[Fancy That]

<SNIP> As an individual looking to buy just one horse, I think there are tons of other inexpensive outlets (what about standardbreds or other "less popular breeds"? ) that would take no more effort for a person like me to tap into. I was genuinely curious if this was due to superficial reasons like "trends", or if there was something else I didn't know. I am a major fan of OTTBs, and will be the first to discuss their work ethic, athletic abilities, and heart. Lots of other types of horses share those characteristics too though, and are easier to find (for the individual buyer) and more likely to be started later or suffer less physical strain.
<SNIP>

BNP - I think your notion of other alternatives (breed-wise) is valid for the lower levels. There have been umpteen threads on COTH about "unconventional breeds" being used in the Olympic Sports. Yes, there are the RARE EXCEPTIONS that do well. But the vast majority of unconventional breeds kick butt at the Lower Levels (up to Prelim here)

Take my breed of choice: Morgans. They are FANTASTIC lower-level eventing horses for the typical ammy owners like me....and some are successful to Prelim. My mare is PERFECT for me (BN level) And I do a bit of everything with her.

That can be said with a VARIETY of breeds and mixes.

But when talking about an EVENTING MACHINE (capable of UL), I think the proven breeds are TB and TB crosses (I include WB in the TB cross because WB's ARE TB crosses ...oh and QH is often TB cross :)

I love the unconventianal breeds..... but I don't think you'll see too many of those at the Olympics.

[vineyridge]

???
Of the 87 runners at Aqueduct yestersday, 82 were descended from Mahmoud, most multiple lines. That's 94.5%, and probably holds true for the general TB population.
Having Mahmoud in a pedigree means nothing much.

Sure It does. It gives you a better chance of having a gray. :)

[Ajierene]

But when talking about an EVENTING MACHINE (capable of UL), I think the proven breeds are TB and TB crosses (I include WB in the TB cross because WB's ARE TB crosses ...oh and QH is often TB cross :)

I love the unconventianal breeds..... but I don't think you'll see too many of those at the Olympics.

This statement is all well and good, except most people on this thread do not seem to be looking for a horse that can go past Prelim. So who cares if it is a Thoroughbred off the track or one of the many backyard horses that I can get ahold of for $500?

I have nothing against thoroughbreds, off the track or never been raced, whatever - just that it seems to be a focus of eventers on this board and I think that is just a waste of resources and lack of understanding of how many adult amateurs really want to retrain a thoroughbred, deal with their issues, etc. Compared to those that want one already 'proven'. Proven could mean purpose bred and started, thoroughbred already started in eventing and showing (whether or not that horse came off the track) or another horse that has at least proven temperment and willingness - even if it will never go past Beginner Novice.

[Fancy That]

This statement is all well and good, except most people on this thread do not seem to be looking for a horse that can go past Prelim. So who cares if it is a Thoroughbred off the track or one of the many backyard horses that I can get ahold of for $500?

I have nothing against thoroughbreds, off the track or never been raced, whatever - just that it seems to be a focus of eventers on this board and I think that is just a waste of resources and lack of understanding of how many adult amateurs really want to retrain a thoroughbred, deal with their issues, etc. Compared to those that want one already 'proven'. Proven could mean purpose bred and started, thoroughbred already started in eventing and showing (whether or not that horse came off the track) or another horse that has at least proven temperment and willingness - even if it will never go past Beginner Novice.

Bingo! EXACTLY MY POINT :) Almost any horse (literally) can do BN. There are TONS of packers that are super Ammy safe that are NOT TB or TBX.

I figured all this talk about "THE EVENTING MACHINE" was for Upper Levels.

That's why, when I go to the local XC schoolings, one-days, derbies ,etc.....there are a PLETHORA of unconventional breeds doing fantastic with owners having a blast! Saddlebred, Morgan, Fresian, Draft, Ponies-of-all-sorts, Standarbred, Foundation QH, Mustang...this list goes on.

There are tons of those types that can make MANY of us "eventers" quite happy. I will take my Safe, Sane, Super Easy, Quiet and willing Morgan over any other horse, because it's what I want to do (fun, easy lower level stuff...Novice max)

Again - I figured this thread was talking about the TOP OF THE SPORT. Denny's "horses of old" were just that. Advanced level. KILLER Eventing Athletes. (nothing like my fat but safe/packer Morgan! :)

[denny]

When Snoopy was asking about the kinds of horses which evented in the VERY long format events of the 60s-80s (up to 18-19 miles on xc day, plus 5 1/2 minute `chase), I think he was wondering how those types would fare in today`s short format world, with much more technical dressage (flying changes, tighter counter canter serpentine loops, etc.), a bigger show jumping track (up to 4`3 rather than 3`11), and lots of technical xc questions.

When I was at Dartmouth in the late 50s, early 60s, I used to go with Joe McLaughlin to some of the New England tracks (Lincoln Downs, Suffolk Downs, Rockingham) when he`d be looking for camp horses for his Hitching Post Farm.

You could buy big, attractive, pretty clean legged 3-5 yr olds by the carload for around $500.00 give or take a couple hundred, so if one didn`t work, get something else.

They were a different stamp of tb back then, more middle distance than 5 furlong sprinters, bigger, rangier horses, not the 15.3 downhill "bullets" so common now.

Different horses for a different world.

But that was THEN. Now I want horses that can jump 5 feet, like Formula One and some of my jumper line warmblood babies, to cross onto tb mares/stallions, to be able to handle NOW.

We have to adapt.

[snoopy]

When Snoopy was asking about the kinds of horses which evented in the VERY long format events of the 60s-80s (up to 18-19 miles on xc day, plus 5 1/2 minute `chase), I think he was wondering how those types would fare in today`s short format world, with much more technical dressage (flying changes, tighter counter canter serpentine loops, etc.), a bigger show jumping track (up to 4`3 rather than 3`11), and lots of technical xc questions.

When I was at Dartmouth in the late 50s, early 60s, I used to go with Joe McLaughlin to some of the New England tracks (Lincoln Downs, Suffolk Downs, Rockingham) when he`d be looking for camp horses for his Hitching Post Farm.

You could buy big, attractive, pretty clean legged 3-5 yr olds by the carload for around $500.00 give or take a couple hundred, so if one didn`t work, get something else.

They were a different stamp of tb back then, more middle distance than 5 furlong sprinters, bigger, rangier horses, not the 15.3 downhill "bullets" so common now.

Different horses for a different world.

But that was THEN. Now I want horses that can jump 5 feet, like Formula One and some of my jumper line warmblood babies, to cross onto tb mares/stallions, to be able to handle NOW.

We have to adapt.



Whould you then say that most of these "bullets"...the TB of today...would be unsuitable for the demands of the UL's of eventing. It would seem to me since the demands of the sport have changed (the lack of endurance phase) with somewhat a more punishing design of XC, and being run more often, are these weedy little tb's off the track going to stand up to these demands. The TB that was bred all those years ago was very much suited to a new career in eventing as it was then. Can we really expect to "consistantly" find the superstars of tomorrow at the track....like was done back when. Of course there are exceptions to every rule BUT the successfull OTTB horses that the USA used in the long format team appearances IMO either retired or infact showed that they were actually not suited to the short format.

[camohn]

Whould you then say that most of these "bullets"...the TB of today...would be unsuitable for the demands of the UL's of eventing. It would seem to me since the demands of the sport have changed (the lack of endurance phase) with somewhat a more punishing design of XC, and being run more often, are these weedy little tb's off the track going to stand up to these demands. The TB that was bred all those years ago was very much suited to a new career in eventing as it was then. Can we really expect to "consistantly" find the superstars of tomorrow at the track....like was done back when. Of course there are exceptions to every rule BUT the successfull OTTB horses that the USA used in the long format team appearances IMO either retired or infact showed that they were actually not suited to the short format.

I would agree that the QH built bullet (15.3, big butt, little feet, downhill build) is not suited to eventing and that it IS harder to find the big rangy Pleasant Colony type TB. No one breeds those anymore because they take until they are 4 to mature (too slow to most race breeders) and most race cards ARE written for 4 to 6f sprints now. If it runs like a QH it looks like a QH most of the time. The breeding has changed for TBs because of the popularity of sprint races. It is much harder to find anything over 8f anymore and that is the body type suited to eventers/jumpers.

[camohn]

Think of it like this in human terms:
Picture an Olympic runner for the 100 yard dash and a marathon runner. Do they look at ALL alike in body type? Nope. The sprinters look compact with a lot of muscle bulk. The marathon runners look like string beans. And it is not just because of the way they train. It is what they were born with. People (and horses) have two types of muscle fibers: slow twitch (which is long/thin/meant for endurance) and fast twitch (which is short and bulky/meant for a short/quick burst of speed for "flight" in an emergency). Some people/horses are born with mostly one, mostly the other or somewhere in between for their makeup of these fiber types. People that truly excell at marathons are mostly made up of slow twitch fibers, sprinters mostly fast twitch.

[denny]

Tbs weren`t and aren`t bred for their powerful trot.

Warmbloods and Irish Draughts descend from cart/carriage/wagon/caisson pulling stock, most of whom could push powerfully from behind.

So I think we need a touch of that---not too much, but enough to dispel the little dinky trot that just doesn`t cut it in today`s fiercly competitive dressage arenas.

[BritNativePony]

FancyThat - I agree with you to a point. However, I believe that less traditional breeds are not as successful because they a) couldn't compete in the old format but mostly b) were not taken serious enough to be considered. I really think a lot has to do with time and resources of those willing/able to go to the upper levels.. they just don't consider an atypical horse. Today eventing is different, and when considering the changes being made and the need to adapt to such changes (as Denny has pointed out) I'm can't help but believe that other nonTBs of sport type (that includes atypical members of non popular breeds) have an even better chance at excelling above prelim, since the needs are different. I guess I am just more of a "type" person and have less of a breed focus (these days), and I was wondering if any one else thought or felt the same way. There's no denying the success of TBs as athletes in ALL disciplines, but there's also no denying the role of statistics (more people only choosing TBs and TBx so therefore greater numbers of successful TBs and TBx). Also change is upon us, which I think opens the door wider for a greater variety of horses that fith the 'type' needed to succeed today beyond prelim - they just need the opportunity to be sought out. It might make me unpopular (I hope not!), but it's JMHO.

[snoopy]

FancyThat - I agree with you to a point. However, I believe that less traditional breeds are not as successful because they a) couldn't compete in the old format but mostly b) were not taken serious enough to be considered. I really think a lot has to do with time and resources of those willing/able to go to the upper levels.. they just don't consider an atypical horse. Today eventing is different, and when considering the changes being made and the need to adapt to such changes (as Denny has pointed out) I'm can't help but believe that other nonTBs of sport type (that includes atypical members of non popular breeds) have an even better chance at excelling above prelim, since the needs are different. I guess I am just more of a "type" person and have less of a breed focus (these days), and I was wondering if any one else thought or felt the same way. There's no denying the success of TBs as athletes in ALL disciplines, but there's also no denying the role of statistics (more people only choosing TBs and TBx so therefore greater numbers of successful TBs and TBx). Also change is upon us, which I think opens the door wider for a greater variety of horses that fith the 'type' needed to succeed today beyond prelim - they just need the opportunity to be sought out. It might make me unpopular (I hope not!), but it's JMHO.



OH I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!! Go back to the first few pages of this thread and you will see my opinion on the matter.

[Blugal]

So I think we need a touch of that---not too much, but enough to dispel the little dinky trot that just doesn`t cut it in today`s fiercly competitive dressage arenas.

I disagree with the thinking behind this statement. I think the dressage phase in eventing (at least originally) was meant to display obedience and suppleness etc. and not to reward the fanciest mover. In fact if I had my way, I'd change the wording/emphasis in the tests (and perhaps address the judging bias) that rewards fanciness of paces in favour of correct training, a horse that is on the aids, and resistance-free.

Headley Britannia won Badminton and Burghley with her dinky trot but she bested them by being well trained and smartly ridden.

[BritNativePony]

OH I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!! Go back to the first few pages of this thread and you will see my opinion on the matter.

Yay! I don't know how I missed your original post, Snoopy!

[Lincoln]

And, Denny, the aforementioned pulling type horses not only have the push from behind, they have behind them the generations of tolerance for being "interfered with" that is required of a working horse.

Dirt track thoroughbreds aren't bred for "rideability", or responsiveness to pull/push/change direction instructions from a human - at least not for the preponderance in the US. My classic Bold Ruler really does not think that the human has the right to much input. He'd be much happier in the old galloping style course, where the test is of speed, endurance, guts and scope. He may just never be suited to the trappier (tug/gallop/turn/tug) style of course at P and up - not because he doesn't have the scope, but because he may not be safe because he doesn't listen easily.

I would add that the dressage people are running into a similar conundrum because of the emphasis on extravagance over rideability. What works for Anky is downright dangerous for mere mortals. Those fabulous gaits and brilliance come with a super reactive brain (just as explosive speed can, too.) Even if it's a total gas to ride in the arena - all that power and suppleness - it is downright perilous to take outside. A note of cautioun for event people looking to add "quality of gaits" to their program - just because it does Grand Prix dressage doesn't mean it is broke or rideable. I worry about dressage line breeding for eventing because I've sat on a lot of fabulously bred dressage horses that I'd love to take down centerline but nowhere else. They sure didn't feel like a horse that could look out for itself or partner intelligently with a rider in an emergency.

[snoopy]

I disagree with the thinking behind this statement. I think the dressage phase in eventing (at least originally) was meant to display obedience and suppleness etc. and not to reward the fanciest mover. In fact if I had my way, I'd change the wording/emphasis in the tests (and perhaps address the judging bias) that rewards fanciness of paces in favour of correct training, a horse that is on the aids, and resistance-free.

Headley Britannia won Badminton and Burghley with her dinky trot but she bested them by being well trained and smartly ridden.


I would agree with this also. 100 years ago I was taught that you could and should out score a flashy trot if your horse were accurate, relaxed, consistant, balanced, and precise. Flash was just the icying on the cake. I was also taught...and believe to this day...that you can improve the trot with this type of training. Somewhere along the way judges have changed that way of thinking in favour of flash being part of the ingedients instead of that little bit of extra on top. A flashy trot was surpless... not a requirement.

[denny]

Dressage judges are only human. (Well, semi-human!)

And if you have a horse with a big, swinging trot, it`s pretty easy for them to give it those 7s and even 8s instead of the 6s they tend to hand out to the more pedestrian movers.

I think that`s absolutely what`s happening in "real life." (Most of the time).

[Blugal]

Yes, and the increasing hunter-ization of the sport. The judge awards the horse with the best inherent paces (or jump in hunterland). Despite your skill and training, part of your ability to do well in the sport is dependent on your pocketbook. Not the inclusive sport we used to love, any more?

[sm]

And if you have a horse with a big, swinging trot, it`s pretty easy for them to give it those 7s and even 8s instead of the 6s they tend to hand out to the more pedestrian movers.

I think that`s absolutely what`s happening in "real life." (Most of the time).

Bingo. And this is why there's complaining that horsemenship qualities are going down the tubes. There is no real need to learn how to generate correct impulsion, build correct muscle, or correct rider balance -- just sit there and don't bounce too much during the dressage test. Judges can't mark you down for bouncing and jabbing the horse in the mouth and the ribs, and riders do this at every show you go to, it only counts if it interferes with the horse's gaits.

On the other hand my pedestrian bullet of an OTTB did mange to outperform purpose bred uber-mover WBs, in dressage of all things. But it was because the rider actually rode and put in overall better tests. And my horse learned how to generate CORRECT impulsion and energy from the hindquarters as he sailed past the WBs and went FEI Grand Prix. Yes, in dressage of all things. He figured he was a dressage horse, he always was balanced and atheletic, and excell he did.

Back to horsemenship... vs the pocketbook. Yes, it's looking more like hunterland every day.

[Whisper]

They sure didn't feel like a horse that could look out for itself or partner intelligently with a rider in an emergency.
In a lesson one time, I was doing a 2 stride combination across the diagonal, around 2'3". I lost my balance while we were jumping the first one, and knew I wouldn't be able to stay on for the second one coming up, so was trying to figure out how to get out of there in time. The horse, a TB, did a rollback starting in midair over the jump, and came to a halt next to the jump in maybe 2 strides total (managing a gentle stop, even though the transition was so quick). A different TB I leased also "caught" his owner a few times when she had a bad fence. Of course, you can't expect them to fill in for you each time, and I try to ride well in the first place and not lose my balance, but I really appreciate those saintly, generous ones who try to take care of themselves and their rider!

[Aharoni]

There is an advantage to buying purpose bred horses. Don't get me wrong as I love TB's. My three day horse in the late 80's cost me 1,000. And I made him myself with the help of trainers like Denny.I only rode TB's. But the sport of eventing seems to have taken a radical turn. I have been out of the sport for 15 years and now I want back in. Do I risk buying an off the track TB that might not hold up and is not competitive enough in the dressage ring? Or do I splurge some extra cash and at least know that I can reasonably expect to have a decent end product. The horse may not become an upper level event horse for whatever reasons but I can assume that I can recoup my investment as he will cross over into the dressage/HJ ring. The purpose bred horse also comes along with a pedigree that helps me unload him if I chose to do so. As an adult rider taking financial risks doesn't make much sense. I feel the purpose bred horse is less of a risk.

[sm]

I worry about dressage line breeding for eventing because I've sat on a lot of fabulously bred dressage horses that I'd love to take down centerline but nowhere else. They sure didn't feel like a horse that could look out for itself or partner intelligently with a rider in an emergency.


Yes. I've been thinking about Wofford's comments pointing to dressage and linking to the x-c problems. Beyond that I think it's also the questions asked in the dressage test. What's graded, what's valued, and what's overlooked.

Obviously in today's dressage tests, balance and independant seat (aka rider balance) comes into play waaaaaaay after a horse's exuberant gaits.

It's very cosmetic today --- the real function/benefit of the old dressage tests is, to a great extent, lacking.