How difficult should stadium be?

[Catalina]

I just took the USEA survery and one of the questions was about the difficulty of stadium.
Out of curosity, what is everyone's opinion on the difficulty of stadium? At several events last year that I went to the stadium was very HARD- like only a few clean rounds per division hard. Should stadium be that difficult? Does a Hard stadium help set riders up better for XC?

[caevent]

I agree, most of the events that I've attended recently have had very few clear rounds. Some divisions would have only one clear round out of top 8 riders. I personally think it's a good thing. Give us technical, tricky fences that fall down. Leave the cross country a test of boldness and terrain. I'd much rather have the stadium more influential than the dressage, for what it's worth.

[RAyers]

...Give us technical, tricky fences that fall down. Leave the cross country a test of boldness and terrain. I'd much rather have the stadium more influential than the dressage, for what it's worth.


I agree!!!

Reed

[Jleegriffith]

I truly believes it depends on the level. For example, I took two very green horses to a local starter event where the stadium was so decorated and scary there were many rider falls and ugly rounds. People this is a starter event with Novice and below..let's make it inviting. I prep my horses well at home but holy decorated fences. Almost everything was very solid with fillers, tons of rails, decorations underneath and on the sides. It did not set them up to be confident heading out to x-country.

You get to know the events you are going to and what type of stadium you will be expecting. I always think Plantation fields has a tough type of stadium because they use the terrain and it requires a balanced thinking ride and they have a fair amount of decoration that might catch the horses eye. One event I went to had a rolltop as fence 1. Nothing wrong with that but not an inviting fence for fence 1.

I loved the stadium course at VHT's and even though I have only been there once I watched many videos from that event and the course always has such a nice flow to it. The coliseum backs the horses off so they seem to plan the course accordingly.

My perspective is probably different because I am typically riding green horses in their first year of competition and I want the first few fences to promote confidence and help me with establishing a forward ride not scare the horses to death.

[Jealoushe]

I personally like a difficult stadium course. I think if people are getting eliminated in Stadium it's a good indication of what level they should be showing.

There is an event near me that knocks out %60 of the riders in the stadium, only the best of the best make it to the top 10. I love that event..:cool:

[Jleegriffith]

I personally like a difficult stadium course. I think if people are getting eliminated in Stadium it's a good indication of what level they should be showing.

There is an event near me that knocks out %60 of the riders in the stadium, only the best of the best make it to the top 10. I love that event..:cool:

Really? If you are spending tons of money to go to an event that is knocking out 60% of the riders due to stadium it would seem to me that stadium course has something wrong with it. I like a course that rewards thinking riding but not a course that destroys the horses confidence.

[Janet]

I truly believes it depends on the level. For example, I took two very green horses to a local starter event where the stadium was so decorated and scary there were many rider falls and ugly rounds. People this is a starter event with Novice and below..let's make it inviting. I prep my horses well at home but holy decorated fences. Almost everything was very solid with fillers, tons of rails, decorations underneath and on the sides. It did not set them up to be confident heading out to x-country.
Everyone has a different perspective, and mine is the opposite of yours. I can set up courses at home, but I don't have the decorations. One of the main reasons I take a green horse to a competition is for exposure to the decoration. If the fences aren't decorated, I am very disapointed and probably won't come back next time with a green horse.

I want to deal with the decorations when the fences are small enough that the horse CAN jump from an almost-standstill if needed.

But that wouldn't apply to green riders.

[mellsmom]

We struggle with this and in fact had this exact conversation last night. At the local CT level it's important for us to make the stadium completable so that we can get entries and build positive experiences. We do a cross rails division with no decorations and a 2' ' 2'3" division with decorations. We also offer schooling stadium rounds which allows folks to do teh CT at crossrails then come in and school the 2' course, giving the baby the opportunity to go back into the ring and do the same course a little bigger with some flowers and planks. We also get a lot of showhunter converts who don't even know how the scoring system works. The last thing we want to do is scare the crap outta them so they won't come back. At the BN level we're pretty much on par with what everyone else does. I have shown at a lot of the VHT events, so I have a feel for what people expect in this area. Inviting, doable, but with some nice challenges at BN and above.

[RAyers]

The way I see it, a good jumper course knocks 70% of the riders out from the jump-off. That does not destroy a horse's confidence. It pushes the riders to be better jump riders. And if XC is going to test agility and accuracy, this becomes pertinent.

So I say a good stadium course should only have about 30% clean rounds.

[Catalina]

The way I see it, a good jumper course knocks 70% of the riders out from the jump-off. That does not destroy a horse's confidence. It pushes the riders to be better jump riders. And if XC is going to test agility and accuracy, this becomes pertinent.

I agree. Early on last season my horse and I were consistently having rails. So I went home and really worked hard on his straightness and balance on the flat, which not helped with getting clean rounds, but also improved our dressage scores.

I personally love the hard stadiums :D.

[Janet]

At least up through Prlelim, I find the eventing SJ courses to be significantly easier than the equivalent height courses at a jumper show. If you look at my record on USEA, you will find I almost never have a rail down, except as part of an overall meltdown. But in Jumpers at the same height, I am only clear about half the time.

When my sister retired Sportscar from eventing, and started show jumping with her, she found the same thing at the upper levels - an Intermediate or Advanced level SJ course is considerably easier than the equivalent height at a jumper show.

[Hilary]

I like a difficult stadium. I do not like a poorly designed stadium.

one event has had a bit of trouble with their measuring tape and has had some issues with distances. At Novice height/pace, they just didn't work. They were difficult at Training and P, but the poor novice divisions just got massacred.

That is what I put on my survey, but not sure it can be interpreted. I don't think there as a comment box after that.

[takethestage]

Stadium should be the place that knocks out the competition, not cross-country nor dressage. I started off doing jumpers, and when I came over to eventing I couldn't believe how EASY the stadium was. I've been shocked at how many stadium courses I've done that have been like hunter rounds. Sometimes they even throw in an in-and-out! We did very well in the jumper ring, so now stadium is our strongest phase. I love the technical, well-designed courses that are like solid jumper courses.

[GBTeventing]

I have to say that while I appreciate a challenging stadium ride I have to say that there is a difference between a challenging stadium that asks questions and one that is poorly designed and punishes green horses. I agree with the poster that mentioned the striding. I was at an event last year that had a triple combination for the Training. This was not the problem, the problem was that it was the same triple that was on the Intermediate course just the jumps were smaller. When you scale down the super wide oxers of intermediate to the inviting size of training, and lessen the speed from 350 to 325, you should also take into account the distance between the obstacles. After the oxers were made smaller and I walked the course again what was a forward one stride at around 26' became an extremely forward one stride now at about 28'. It was awkward for pretty much everyone.

For Prelim and below I like a course with a challenging turning question or two, that works well off of both leads. The course should include a straight forward combination with sensible striding (doesn't have to be spot on perfect, but reasonable). There should also be a related distance or two that tests how adjustable and balanced the pair is. I like decorations but I prefer that they not obscure the question. In other words, the horse should still be able to understand where the ground line is and where the top rail is to invite positive, forward approaches. FWIW I've enjoyed the courses at Pine Top (a bit easy sometimes but rewarding) and the Carolina Horse Park. I've quite disliked one course at Poplar but find most of them pretty straight-forward, same with Rocking Horse.

[Janet]

I like a difficult stadium. I do not like a poorly designed stadium.

one event has had a bit of trouble with their measuring tape and has had some issues with distances. At Novice height/pace, they just didn't work. They were difficult at Training and P, but the poor novice divisions just got massacred.

That is what I put on my survey, but not sure it can be interpreted. I don't think there as a comment box after that.
I agree. There is a differece between a difficult course and a bad course.

[imapepper]

I like a difficult stadium. I do not like a poorly designed stadium.

one event has had a bit of trouble with their measuring tape and has had some issues with distances. At Novice height/pace, they just didn't work. They were difficult at Training and P, but the poor novice divisions just got massacred.

That is what I put on my survey, but not sure it can be interpreted. I don't think there as a comment box after that.


I have had problems with this as well. I like the course to make sense and have the distances set correctly. And difficulty in stadium should be relative to the level. I don't mind the fences being very decorated because frankly green horses could benefit from spooky fences at heights they can easily trot (BN,N) but I do not like technical distances for that level. Make the related distances straight forward for the lower levels and make the questions similar to the questions that the dressage for that level asks.

[Jealoushe]

Really? If you are spending tons of money to go to an event that is knocking out 60% of the riders due to stadium it would seem to me that stadium course has something wrong with it. I like a course that rewards thinking riding but not a course that destroys the horses confidence.

These are Prelim and under I'm talking about. Anyways the riders are getting eliminated/lots of pps due to rider error, not horse error. I love the courses there because it weeds out all the riders who just sit point and hold on on cross country.

[Hilary]

I should add that I like stadium and compared to the other things I have to do that day, like stay on the mare, I find it easy.

I haven't really found a stadium course that I thought was 'too hard' for the level. Just poorly designed.

[Janet]

Really? If you are spending tons of money to go to an event that is knocking out 60% of the riders due to stadium it would seem to me that stadium course has something wrong with it. I like a course that rewards thinking riding but not a course that destroys the horses confidence.
He said "knocking out of the jumpoff", which translates to "not a clear round". Nobody wants to see a course in which 60% are eliminated. But "60% have one or more rails" seems reasonable, at least for N on up.

[Jleegriffith]

Janet, the quote was by Jealouse who IS talking about an event not a jumper show which is different. 60% eliminate at an event is a big number. Something has to be going on and sure maybe people just aren't good riders but getting eliminated means you are having refusals or falling off.

I do like a challenging stadium in terms of having to ride, think and prepare so that it does weed out those riders who have not done their homework. I don't mind decorations but the course I was speaking about was overdone from fence one and a very scared BN horse jumping 2'6 oxers from the trot can easily lose confidence. I would just like courses that are well thought out as most of the courses in Area 2 are for the most part.

[Janet]

OK, Iw as refering to Reed's post, which is where 60% was first mentioned.

MY opinion is that-

it is OK for a SJ course to result in 40% "clear rounds" and 60% "not clear rounds"

It is NOT OK for an SJ course to result in 60% E.

[FlightCheck]

Agreeing with RAyers and Janet - I was listening to a Big Name Show Jumping designer last year (ok, I was eavesdropping on the class ) and he said that a perfect sj course was

30% clean
30% finish with faults
30% eliminated
and
10% "(crap) no one can account for"

[Hony]

The emphasis needs to remain on XC. An XC horse can do dressage and SJ without killing themselves. This may not be true for a dressage or SJ horse doing XC. I like a reasonably challenging SJ (even though I will admit it's tha phase I like least!) but I do not feel it should be a reflection of jumper shows at the same height.
I too have ridden in several jumper shows and the courses are more challenging but this is all these people do. Not to mention they are usually on flat ground, not in a field like many of our courses are.
There is one course in Ontario that is challenging to the point of being dangerous. There is another course in Ontario that is challenging, flowing and uses the terrain very well. It still isn't like riding at a jumper show but does have an effect on results.
You can guess which one I prefer to ride!

[SmallHerd]

Take this for what it's worth, as I am not a long time eventer nor do I play one on TV. In my opinion, XC should be about terrain, galloping and boldness, with good questions throughout. Stadium should be about accuracy. If I have to pick one of them to be the eliminator, I would pick stadium. The rails come down if you make a mistake.

[Thames Pirate]

At my first Training the SJ was getting quite a few people, so I was really thinking about each turn, my impulsion, etc. There were some tight turns, and my horse doesn't do flying changes. She was a bit stiff and reluctant to pick up the L lead, so we changed through the trot. End result? Clean round, but 5 seconds over time. The time knocked me out of the ribbons (by one placing--grrr), but I was thrilled with the ride. Since then I've tried to cut corners or have ridden sloppily because of the time thing hanging over my head--poof, rails down all over the place. I haven't yet found the balance, but I need to start riding more meticulously like I did that first time. At one show I let my guard down for an instant--and poof, the rail came down, despite it being a smaller (in height) course. I paid attention after that and it was our only rail.

I like courses like that--and since SJ isn't my strongest phase, I like that I can't get around a course without being careful. I don't mind when it drops me in the placings (well, it's frustrating, but I get frustrated with myself for being stupid), because it reminds me that I can't give up for a moment. It reminds me that I need to work on my show nerves. It keeps me honest in terms of moving up the levels. I have tons to work on (and gosh-darnit, my mare is lame!), and I like coming home from an event with clear homework (though sometimes it seems I have too much homework!). Whenever I get down on my SJ I remind myself that if I do everything right, we can jump clear (as evidenced by our first Training) and that a single brain fart resulting in a rail on an otherwise perfect round shows that we can also make the time (and we negotiated the tougher questions perfectly). I just need to get more miles putting the pieces together under pressure.

ETA: At my last event a liverpool at Training nearly undid one rider--she was placed and ended up with two stops and NUMEROUS time faults and ended up low in the division. My horse didn't bat an eye because we had schooled one. If you really want to find ways to school specific things you can usually find a way. We bought a $3 inflatable kiddie pool and filled it up under the jump (after prepping with tarps). We've also bought cheap pinwheels to put at standards or even under the jump so they aren't afraid of moving or weird things.. Aluminum foil or Christmas garland wrapped around a pole (tightly so the horse can't catch on it) takes care of shiny jumps in a cost-effective manner, and hunting orange sweatshirts draped over poles make great fill! A landscaping timber, a drill, and a trip to the dollar store for fake flowers does wonders, too. I don't like the "my horse hasn't seen it" line in SJ. You can fake about anything.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I don't think I've yet ridden a stadium course that I thought was difficult (this is through Prelim). I've had courses that the *I* rode badly or that my horse was very green over...lots and LOTS of them. But they were caused by my bad riding, not because of a difficult course.

The courses just are never all that tough. Most of the time, I'm seeing knock downs in stadium at events from horses that are unbalanced, not careful or given poor rides.....it isn't because there is anything wrong with the course. A few places the footing has a role too.

I will say that often I ride my best xc when I've first had a bad stadium round. Hell, one of my last HT (Fall Waradaca) I had a HORRIBLE stadium. It was an ugly ugly trip....all my fault. She left the rails all up...but only because training level fences are not very big for her. That bad stadium round got me to kick myself in the rear ride on xc and we had a very good run. I'd rather have a bad stadium and good xc.....actually, I rather not have a bad anything!

[enjoytheride]

I've seen stadium be difficult because A. the riders were used to belting around like banshees and leaving off of one leg or B. the stadium was designed by a drunken clown with turns so tight you end up trotting or hitting something.

an important difference!

[goodpony]

I have been following an event this weekend....there were two clear rounds in 17 goes in a single section at training. What is so odd is that there are four sections at training....all of approximately 17-20 entries. In the other three groups there were only a handful of knockdowns....like maybe two not clear rounds per section. Any guesses why one group would have so many problems while the rest jumping the same course at the same level would not? My guess is there was some kind of footing issue...but since Im not there its hard to say.

[Janet]

How were the divisions split? Was it Training Horse, Training Rider?

[goodpony]

Open Training A
Open Training B
Sr. Training Rider A
Sr. Training Rider B
Sr. Training Amatuer
Jr. Training A
Jr Training B

Looks like they might have made some corrections to the "live scoring" I've been watching.....still it leaves us with 10% clear rounds and 89% knock downs in Sr. Rider Sections.

[2016 RoyalCrown KTug]

The way I see it, a good jumper course knocks 70% of the riders out from the jump-off. That does not destroy a horse's confidence. It pushes the riders to be better jump riders. And if XC is going to test agility and accuracy, this becomes pertinent.

So I say a good stadium course should only have about 30% clean rounds.

Ditto :yes: As a Jumper rider and an event rider, I do not think that our Stadium courses are technical enough . . raise the fences, make more striding options, place fences closer together. Use flat cups, light rails and not many fillers under the jumps to make the up and down verticals airy. As someone else pointed out, leave the XC open and galloping, not one technical trap after another that you are expected to negotiate at high speeds.

What do you all think of that? - out of curiosity. And that may be a bit extreme and the jumper rider speaking in me . . or maybe it makes sense :-)

[asterix]

I'm in agreement with everyone else, and I also do not find sj courses overly difficult through prelim. Way back in the stone age I did some jumpers as a kid so this tends to be my strongest phase, and I don't usually think the courses are terribly technical.
This is not to say I don't ride them crappy sometimes anyway :D.

Almost always the rails I have are rider brain fart, except for
a) baby horse occasionally getting eyes so bugged out of head that not all legs are completely accounted for or
b) big horse deciding training and/or small prelim sj fences "not worth his while" (if you could see him, you would know I am not making this up. he is very expressive, for better or for worse, and has managed to knock an entire 2'6" fence over, standards and all, because it was less work than jumping it -- yet has never ever taken a rail over 3'6")

However, I do think there are a few courses that are very badly designed. Prelim ht 2 summers ago, lots of not just rails but crashes, falls, etc. That is not acceptable. Course was designed in a very "tricky" way -- nearly every fence had a perceptible downhill camber in the last stride or two and it just sucked you down to the base.

As for that training ht, I would be willing to bet that was the riders, not the course. Sorry, but we see that all the time at Training. There seems to be a gaping divide between rider divisions and open (and sometimes juniors, who are at least brave and go forward). Happens on XC and in SJ.

[Dr. Doolittle]

I'm in agreement with everyone else, and I also do not find sj courses overly difficult through prelim. Way back in the stone age I did some jumpers as a kid so this tends to be my strongest phase, and I don't usually think the courses are terribly technical.
This is not to say I don't ride them crappy sometimes anyway :D.

Almost always the rails I have are rider brain fart, except for
a) baby horse occasionally getting eyes so bugged out of head that not all legs are completely accounted for or
b) big horse deciding training and/or small prelim sj fences "not worth his while" (if you could see him, you would know I am not making this up. he is very expressive, for better or for worse, and has managed to knock an entire 2'6" fence over, standards and all, because it was less work than jumping it -- yet has never ever taken a rail over 3'6")

However, I do think there are a few courses that are very badly designed. Prelim ht 2 summers ago, lots of not just rails but crashes, falls, etc. That is not acceptable. Course was designed in a very "tricky" way -- nearly every fence had a perceptible downhill camber in the last stride or two and it just sucked you down to the base.

As for that training ht, I would be willing to bet that was the riders, not the course. Sorry, but we see that all the time at Training. There seems to be a gaping divide between rider divisions and open (and sometimes juniors, who are at least brave and go forward). Happens on XC and in SJ.

asterix, *loved* your descriptions of your two horses, :lol: (I remember you describing your youngster as having "leg salad" over one jump during a schooling course at Rubicon--but "not all legs are completely accounted for" is even funnier--great visual! :D)

As for the big guy and his "complete lack of respect for the little stuff", I have seen that in person! ;)

I agree with your comment about the Training HT; there is a LOT of variance among the (abilities/experience of) riders in various T divisions (I remember jump judging at Rubicon last fall, and since I had a very boring, easy jump, I amused myself by watching all the T riders gallop across a gap between the trees, a couple of jumps before they got to me. I found that I was able to identify with about 90% accuracy--just from that glimpse--WHICH riders were in the TR division, as opposed to the TH or OT division. I had a cheat sheet which I consulted to determine how accurate my assessments were; the riders were not riding "in divisional order". It was an interesting experiment!)

I'm curious as to which Prelim HT it was that you refer to; was it in Area II? (If you like, you can PM me...;))

[Ajierene]

Ditto :yes: As a Jumper rider and an event rider, I do not think that our Stadium courses are technical enough . . raise the fences, make more striding options, place fences closer together. Use flat cups, light rails and not many fillers under the jumps to make the up and down verticals airy. As someone else pointed out, leave the XC open and galloping, not one technical trap after another that you are expected to negotiate at high speeds.

What do you all think of that? - out of curiosity. And that may be a bit extreme and the jumper rider speaking in me . . or maybe it makes sense :-)

Coming from the Hunter/Eq world, with jumpers in our barn - I think we are seeing the courses from a similar perspective. Growing up it was common practice to design the trickiest course the instructor could think of so that when we went to shows, the striding and spacing looked easy. I still do this today, so my Novice courses are a piece of cake. When I look at training level stadium course, they look reasonable as well.

As far as the Training level elimination example, I agree with Dr. Doolittle - since it is the 'Rider' division, it is most likely a lot of people moving up, especially if they had their first Training last fall and this is their first show of the year or this is their first Training level show. If it were across the board, then I would think it is a course design issue.

[asterix]

Long time volunteers at Waredaca have remarked on the Training thing. Not sure why it is more obvious at that level than others -- perhaps because it is hard enough that the horse doesn't just sort it out on his own, but by prelim you just don't have nearly as many "rider" riders (speaking as one, we are generally in a small group, not one of 3 or 4 divisions)?

Dr. D, no worries on the PM thing, it was Maryland HT, summer 06. The CD for SJ has been changed since then. It was a nasty course, and of course my first attempt at Prelim sj. I watched the carnage with a sort of sick feeling -- it was really atypical for Prelim, and I was already pretty darn nervous. My lovely big guy would have jumped clean except for, yeah, a momentary loss of line on my part coming to the triple. Turns out angling the first jump does too make it hard to get your distances on b and c :lol: Course was really maxed out to boot, which is probably why he jumped so well.

So it's not sour grapes; I was thrilled to have finished it with one rail. My trainer was riding it too and she thought it was basically "mean".

Lesson learned, will not go back to a HT with that particular designer again (not sure he is still doing it anywhere, seems to have been a one off. He's a BNR for his real job ;))

[Lisa Cook]

I like to do an occasional jumper show because the courses there are WAY harder, technically, than anything at an event. I enjoy a technical stadium course, and I'd personally like to see the technical levels at events begin to approach the corresponding levels at jumper shows.

In regards to jump fillers & decorations at competitions...the h/j instructor that I work with on stadium jumping has an expression: "There's no such thing as a spooky horse, just a lazy trainer." While there will always be exceptions to that rule, we school all kinds of just crazy stuff at his barn, which I love. Nothing at a competition - jumper or eventing - comes close.

Example # 1...this was from last December... :lol:

In the Spirit of Christmas Jump (http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/22c3622410fed922d7e465dfa74d5baf969269d8.pjpg)

Linus jumped on the first attempt, no problem. Such a g'boy.

[Dr. Doolittle]

Long time volunteers at Waredaca have remarked on the Training thing. Not sure why it is more obvious at that level than others -- perhaps because it is hard enough that the horse doesn't just sort it out on his own, but by prelim you just don't have nearly as many "rider" riders (speaking as one, we are generally in a small group, not one of 3 or 4 divisions)?

Dr. D, no worries on the PM thing, it was Maryland HT, summer 06. The CD for SJ has been changed since then. It was a nasty course, and of course my first attempt at Prelim sj. I watched the carnage with a sort of sick feeling -- it was really atypical for Prelim, and I was already pretty darn nervous. My lovely big guy would have jumped clean except for, yeah, a momentary loss of line on my part coming to the triple. Turns out angling the first jump does too make it hard to get your distances on b and c :lol: Course was really maxed out to boot, which is probably why he jumped so well.

So it's not sour grapes; I was thrilled to have finished it with one rail. My trainer was riding it too and she thought it was basically "mean".

Lesson learned, will not go back to a HT with that particular designer again (not sure he is still doing it anywhere, seems to have been a one off. He's a BNR for his real job ;))


AHHHH! :winkgrin:

I remember that course to which you refer; I was there coaching Erin, who was in TR...IIRC, that's where we first met you and Piko! Yeah, that was a challenging stadium (and lots of carnage), I was relieved that Erin only had two rails on Supermare. Tough lines, terrain questions, etc. (It made me glad *I* wasn't riding!) It's all different there, of course, with the new ring and footing. The only issue now being the stadium WARMUP area from Hell, and I believe Carolyn has addressed that issue...(I have a feeling I know who the CD was, though...you can PM me if you like for "confirmation".)

Also, I watched your trip, and was very impressed by how smooth you and the big guy made it look, actually...

[Dr. Doolittle]

I like to do an occasional jumper show because the courses there are WAY harder, technically, than anything at an event. I enjoy a technical stadium course, and I'd personally like to see the technical levels at events begin to approach the corresponding levels at jumper shows.

In regards to jump fillers & decorations at competitions...the h/j instructor that I work with on stadium jumping has an expression: "There's no such thing as a spooky horse, just a lazy trainer." While there will always be exceptions to that rule, we school all kinds of just crazy stuff at his barn, which I love. Nothing at a competition - jumper or eventing - comes close.

Example # 1...this was from last December... :lol:

In the Spirit of Christmas Jump (http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/22c3622410fed922d7e465dfa74d5baf969269d8.pjpg)

Linus jumped on the first attempt, no problem. Such a g'boy.

What a great jump! :D

I agree, it (desensitizing greenies to spooky stuff) should ideally be done at home, with small "decorated" jumps that they can hop over from a walk or trot--and make them DO IT, just to esablish that "go button", and also prove to them that it won't bite ;)

Naturally there's no substitute for schooling slightly scary courses *away* from home as well, just to confirm and make the point to them that they need to "jump what you point them at", but of course at lower heights where they won't be overfaced...

[sch1star]

It was still snowing heavily after feed and clean chores this AM (another foot! :mad:), so I had to wait to start the shovel and snowblow routine and decided to curl up with my rule book. I just got my hard copy...someone is always bound to have a question at an event I can't answer without referring to it, so I went ahead and ordered one.

Even before tuning into this thread I was thinking about EV131.2: Relative Influence of the Tests:

In principle, the Cross Country Test should be the most influential of the three tests of a Horse Trial. The Dressage Test, while less influential than the Cross Country Test, should be slightly more influential than the Jumping Test.

**
Just curious for those who posted that it made sense for 60% of competitors to have penalties +/or E in SJ - would you say the above held true at those events, i.e. a greater percentage of competitors had pps in xc, making it more influential?

One thing I see happen that irks me a bit just personally is when stadium has no impact at all. 90 to 100% clean rounds and no shuffling of the placements just seems too easy. It should do *something*!

[JER]

I think SJ should be commensurate with XC at the particular venue. If SJ is held before XC, there's an obvious benefit to tackling a course that asks for similar adjustments, degree of forward, turning questions, accuracy.

BN and N should be straightforward and encourage fluid, forward riding.

'Technical' should start at T but only to a small degree.

'Tricky', which one poster suggested, has IMO no place in eventing SJ. Accuracy is fine but 'tricky' is something that could be a confidence-zapper, for no real purpose. (I personally don't believe 'tricky' belongs around horses, period.)

I've done a lot of jumper shows, always at low levels with inexperienced horses. I have not found those courses to be more difficult than eventing SJ. If anything, I've found the distances consistent for the height of the fence. In eventing, I've seen a decent distance for T height become a weird distance for BN. At jumper shows, I've never seen a single oxer way off by itself with a looong approach, which, again, is not something I like at BN or N.

Jumper shows will have a one- or two-stride in-and-out even at the lowest level (2'9"?) but these fences always ride well IME, even with a horse who has only been jumping single fences at home.

[Janet]

The "relative influence" is a combination of two things
- How difficult the course is
- How the penalty points are allocated.

Coinsidering that a stop (or rail) on SJ is worth 5 penalty points, and a stop on XC is worth 20 penalty points, an SJ course would have to be awfully hard before it came anywhere near being as influential as XC.

Even if 60% of the riders have 5 or 10 penalty points in SJ, it is still going to be less influential than XC (unless XC is so easy that EVERYONE is clear).

[sch1star]

Good point Janet, it really depends on how we measure the relative influence of one phase on another. More food for thought!

[Catalina]

I agree with those that said stadium should not be tricky. I went to one event last year where the Novice stadium was complete with a loooong approaches to an oxer then a sharp 180 turn to a one stride. This was after a series of switchbacks and 90 turns one stride after a jump that had me yanking my horse's face off to try to achieve it. The whole ride lacked any type of rhythm or regularity.

The best courses, I thought, were at MDHT last year. Here are the results from one of the events (http://useventing.com/competitions.php?section=calendar&page=results&event=13859); note that there were a lot of rails, but, having ridden the course and watched a lot (I was parked right by the ingate), I can say that most of them were pilot error. The course was hard, but if you rode accurately and with a good rhythm they were extremely rideable. I remember getting a clean round there and just being elated because I rode my plan exactly and it paid off. You can't do that when you are jerking, yanking, kicking, pulling, etc your way around a course. CDs could learn from MDHTs how to bulid a good difficult course :).

[Thames Pirate]

I think one reason we see many rails at Training is that up to about 3' most horses can save us even if we're on their necks. They'll still go (rather than crash through) or will fudge their way over regardless of what's going on up top. As the jumps get bigger, they get less "forgiving" in this way--horses can no longer bail us out. Thus what may have been a clean round with an ugly fence or two in Novice becomes a ride with a crash through and two rails at Training. Obviously this varies depending on the scope, experience, and personality of the horse, but both my sister and I have found that we get "caught out" for our mistakes at anything over about 3'. I find that my rails can generally be avoided if I . . . I can think of only one rail in the last 2 or more years that was not totally my fault.

If SJ is too hard, perhaps we need to look at why riders are having trouble--are they overfaced? Making "show nerve" mistakes (that's my issue!)? Are the horses stiff/tired (and if so, legitimately)? I don't think I've seen any courses that are "overboard" in difficulty--just ones that (rightfully so, IMO) punish you for mistakes with rails (not crashes).