Our very own Eventrider in the "news"!!!

[Jaegermonster]

Our very own eventrider and "Teddy" the superpony (RIP) in a very nice article in this months Eventing Magazine.
(yes this was posted with permission)

http://www.trainoreventing.com/Trainor%20and%20Teddy.pdf

[RAyers]

INCOMING!!!! ;)

[LexInVA]

Ah. So this is what all the fuss was about last night.

[Jaegermonster]

Ah. So this is what all the fuss was about last night.

Yep.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=192189

we'll let the people decide

[Yance]

Well I'm a total fan of both CT and Koda.

[EventFan]

oh my get the popcorn and vodka.

[2LaZ2race]

Call me naive, but I thought it was a nice article.

The main person that said anything about Teddy being "snatched out from under her" was Denny Emerson and he didn't get bashed last night (not saying he should have.. the whole rant was silly...)

[53]

I am so glad you posted that, I think it was a beautifully written article and am so glad to be able to see the true context of the message. The subtleties speak volumes.

[LexInVA]

I can see how P.Wynn is rankled by the "snatching" as it seems to come up again and again and again. Not that I am commenting on whatever is going on in the bushes or have an opinion on any of this but it just seems to be the recurring bass line of this little tune. As for the remarks about Teddy's siblings, I (myself) don't take anything bad about the line from what Christan said but after reading exactly what was put in the article, I understand that P. is obviously furious about the specifics of what was stated in the article because Christan's statement about the Teddy siblings she has ridden "not being much like Teddy" is easily interpreted as being a generalized negative statement about the line without giving the fact that Christan has not ridden any of Teddy's FULL siblings apart from Coda according to P.

[Jaegermonster]

53,
Believe me when I say that it was my pleasure to do it and I agree with you.
Christan is too much of a professional and a class act to air out any dirty laundry with anyone in public ever.

[Jaegermonster]

I can see how P.Wynn is rankled by the "snatching" as it seems to come up again and again and again. Not that I am commenting on whatever is going on in the bushes or have an opinion on any of this but it just seems to be the recurring bass line of this little tune. As for the remarks about Teddy's siblings, I (myself) don't take anything bad about the line from what Christan said but after reading exactly what was put in the article, I understand that P. is obviously furious about the specifics of what was stated in the article because Christan's statement about the Teddy siblings she has ridden "not being much like Teddy" is easily interpreted as being a generalized negative statement about the line without giving the fact that Christan has not ridden any of Teddy's FULL siblings apart from Coda according to P.

a) christan didn't make the statement about the snatching, Denny did. So apparently Wynn's rant was misdirected and should have been fired across Denny's bow.

b) christan has ridden some siblings, at least one a full sibling. Apparently Wynn forgot about that. But people present things in the light that is most favorable to them, not the side they are attacking. either way, saying that a full sibling isn't like another full sibling is not a horrible thing. I've ridden horses that were full sibs and you wouldn't know it unless you looked at their papers. My own sister and I have the same parents and we couldn't be more different.

[seeuatx]

I think if I was reading that article from the perspective of what apparently had some underlying sour grapes, yeah I could see getting hot under the collar about it. Personally I would have liked to read a bit more about Trainor has done, not just an article about how she had the pony "snatched" from her.

But what is the use of re-opening the train wreck? It certainly isn't making those in Trainor's camp appear as spotless as I think they would like to. I find this whole drama tedious. :dead:

[LexInVA]

Jaeger, I was not referring specifically to the article. I was referring to the typically consistent discussions about Christan and Teddy's career together which often have some implication that Teddy was stolen from her in a nefarious manner and P.Wynn had bad intentions in the matter.

[LLDM]

Our very own eventrider and "Teddy" the superpony (RIP) in a very nice article in this months Eventing Magazine.
(yes this was posted with permission)


Why in the heck would you reopen this can of worms? We all get that CT is your friend. Everyone involved seems to have experienced a good deal of pain over Teddy, the saga of Teddy's ride to the top, and the tragic loss of Teddy. For anyone to take the credit or claim the pain is a bit over the top for me. Out of respect for The Pony who gave us all such a lift, can you leave it alone?

What exactly was the point of it anyway? Wait, wait - nevermind. Let it go.

SCFarm

[Jaegermonster]

Jaeger, I was not referring specifically to the article. I was referring to the typically consistent discussions about Christan and Teddy's career together which often have some implication that Teddy was stolen from her in a nefarious manner and P.Wynn had bad intentions in the matter.

Oh ok sorry Lex. I thought you were referring specifically to the article. I do have to say that although others may have implied some "nefarious manner" about the whole thing, I don't recall seeing or hearing anything that can be attributed to Christan that says or implies that. There may have some behind the scenes wrangling but it was not on Wynn's part. Some may have inferred that it was but I doubt that they got that from Christan.

[Jaegermonster]

Why in the heck would you reopen this can of worms? We all get that CT is your friend. Everyone involved seems to have experienced a good deal of pain over Teddy, the saga of Teddy's ride to the top, and the tragic loss of Teddy. For anyone to take the credit or claim the pain is a bit over the top for me. Out of respect for The Pony who gave us all such a lift, can you leave it alone?

What exactly was the point of it anyway? Wait, wait - nevermind. Let it go.

SCFarm

Friend or not, the beating and abuse and public embarrassment that Christan took yesterday at the hands of Wynn were inexcusable. I posted the article because there are two sides to every story and here is side two. The article speaks for itself. And I think it is very clear who is owed the apology. Christan did not say one bad thing in any way about Wynn, her program or her animals.
Since the ranting was done in public so should the apology be. Now let's see if she's big enough to do it.
That was the point of it.

[Jealoushe]

I thought PWynn was mad because she thought CT was not being positive about her breeding program, not about the KOC thing. So, I'm confused.:confused:

[caevent]

I though it was a lovely article. Why don't we all just smile now and carry on with life. :yes:

[Jaegermonster]

I thought PWynn was mad because she thought CT was not being positive about her breeding program, not about the KOC thing. So, I'm confused.:confused:

Basically she was, you're right. And she was bent about something about the timeline of the move to KOC. The writer of the article said that within days of her return home Christan was told the horse was leaving, not that within days the horse left. Wynn griped about that too, and apparently didn't read for comprehension, #1, and #2 was bent at Christan about something that she didn't even say and could easily have been misinterpreted by the writer.

[LexInVA]

Oh ok sorry Lex. I thought you were referring specifically to the article. I do have to say that although others may have implied some "nefarious manner" about the whole thing, I don't recall seeing or hearing anything that can be attributed to Christan that says or implies that. There may have some behind the scenes wrangling but it was not on Wynn's part. Some may have inferred that it was but I doubt that they got that from Christan.

I don't think Christan is saying or has said anything (to my own limited knowledge) that does cast a negative light on P.Wynn and I certainly am not someone who is privy to any firsthand knowledge of anything that has happened between Christan or P. but when discussing the matter of Teddy changing hands, people are constantly making inferences from what happened and those inferences are not favorable for anyone involved except for maybe Karen who often gets labeled as a shrewdly intelligent and influential power player. At any rate, you did the right thing in posting that article so lummoxes like myself can understand all this and try to get some meaning out of it all.

[RoeVee]

I think the morale of this story is - don't get attached to a 'pony of a lifetime' if it isn't your pony. I think CT gets that and even addresses it in the article. PW, I think, is tired of it getting hashed out. This article was very heavy handed in the over-dramatization of CT and Teddy's relationship. It reads very 'Black Beauty-ish' - all the writer needed to add was 'Teddy whinnied when he saw CT in the distance...' :lol:

Bummer this is getting hashed out in a public forum.

[Aubreyyy]

Why in the heck would you reopen this can of worms? We all get that CT is your friend. Everyone involved seems to have experienced a good deal of pain over Teddy, the saga of Teddy's ride to the top, and the tragic loss of Teddy. For anyone to take the credit or claim the pain is a bit over the top for me. Out of respect for The Pony who gave us all such a lift, can you leave it alone?

What exactly was the point of it anyway? Wait, wait - nevermind. Let it go.

SCFarm

Thank you!

Jaeger, every post of yours is just as rude. I don't get why you kept dragging out the last thread, and I don't get why you posted this after the OTHER is gone.

[Jaegermonster]

Funny, somehow I don't recall accusing others of things they didn't do, using obscenities, calling people stupid or telling them to do things to themselves that are anatomically impossible, all while calling myself a "professional". But i guess what's "rude" is in the eye of the beholder.

If you don't want to talk about it then don't open the thread and don't post on it and it will die a natural death.

[WingedPanda]

INCOMING!!!! ;)

Quick, back behind the manure pile!!! :eek:

[JenEM]

I think the morale of this story is - don't get attached to a 'pony of a lifetime' if it isn't your pony.

Perhaps the moral should be to take with a large grain of salt any article in an equestrian publication that cannot even spell CULPEPER properly.

[piccolittle]

Hmmm... I don't want to feed the flames here, as everyone seems to have quite strong opinions on the issue. But I just wanted to give my two cents, if it's even worth that. ;)

Before this article, the only information I had on Teddy and Christan's relationship was from Wynn's website itself. Even from that information, I sort of assumed that the pony was moved to Karen for various reasons, mostly because it was a good opportunity for the pony to get some exposure (even if it were with the intention to sell). Was it immediate, or unfair? Who cares. That's the business. Christan is such a good rider that she is still at the top, even without the "pony of a lifetime." I agree that the angle in the article was a little sappy, but it's all in the interest of readership, and a good horse-human bond (and a little "love lost" thrown in for good measure) makes a great interest story. So if you want to yell at anyone, talk to the magazine.

What I mostly want to address is Christan's references to Wynn's breeding program. From my reading of the article, there were two. The first, on the siblings, clearly read that none of the siblings she's ridden have been "SO much like him." Everyone keeps missing that word, SO. She means that, of the Teddy siblings (relatives) she has ridden, Coda is the MOST like Teddy. NOT that the others are "not much like him." She's talking up her own pony, for pete's sake! No foul.

Her second reference to the breeding program is to say that Coda's "Thoroughbred line is incredible" or something to the same effect. I would count that as very complimentary!

As for what Denny said about the "snatching," no comment. Really.

[magnolia73]

Sounds like a young rider who loved a pony with all her heart. But handled it well when business intervened. Yeah- Denny sounds a little harsh. But Christin sure sounds supportive of both Teddy and the opportunities to own and ride Pwynn's horses.

You know, what was she supposed to say - "I lost the ride of the lifetime, but you know... business." That would make me feel like she did not find the pony special.

[starboard]

Speaking of facts, and "facts," according to her website, Christan was Shortlisted in 2000. Umm, really??

[LexInVA]

Speaking of facts, and "facts," according to her website, Christan was Shortlisted in 2000. Umm, really??

It should read long listed. Probably just a mistake that has gone unnoticed for some time.

[joharavhf]

I did not know anything about the "relationship" issue until yesterday....so with a clear head, I read this article and it left me happy, hoping and a little teary eyed.

P.Wynn really should have just been quiet about this all. There are A LOT of us "naive" people out there that would have done business with her over time....now I'm more likely to buy a breeding to Coda for my mare :D

[Hilary]

I just read this with the eye of "what is the fuss all about". And page 1 is ALL glowing remarks about Teddy and Coda. Page 2 is all about Christan growing up.

If you get to page three, I can see where someone REALLY tuned into the nuances and minutia about the situation would be cranky. I am a stickler for facts and being right and not being misinterpreted (yes, the therapy is helping) so I can see myself being peeved if I was on the other end of a misinterpretation BUT, Christan was "devastated". Denny was attributed to the word "snatched".

Page 4 goes on to how she grew from the experience and then to riding Teddy again, and then buying Coda.

So it's an article about a young event trainer and there are about 5 sentences about a bad situation and how she dealt with it.


The Chronicle Article about Teddy has Christan glowing about the horses.

Both these articles seem to demonstrate the Christan very much respects PWynn's breeding program. If she didn't, why ever would she buy Coda and be so excited about him??

[denny]

When I talked with the woman who wrote that article, we were both discussing how it must have felt to a kid in her early 20s to have lost the ride on a horse that she had brought right up to the advanced level, only to have a famous rider get the ride.

And I probably did say that "IN A WAY" it felt like the pony was snatched away, meaning that I`ll bet it felt that way to her. I believe the author and I agreed that would have been how most people would have felt.

And I bet it did. But she never made any statement to that effect.

[snoopy]

For me I do not see the problem on either side. Riders who do not own the horses they compete are at the mercy of the decisions made by their owners. Often times the business of business and the harsh reality of business and finance derail a rider's dream. The fact is that this is not an unusual occurance in the sport, especially outside of the USA. There are many instances when the rider shows up as the horse is heading down the driveway in the owner's trailer. It is unfortunate. Yes the rider and team work hard and yes the rider and team develop a bond with the animals in their care. But one must not lose sight that this is a business arrangement and sometimes for what ever reason these arrangements come to an end. Teddy was good marketing for Wynn's business and perhaps the marketing value of KOC gave her more bang for her buck at a cheaper price.
This situation is exactly what happens when you inject emotion into business. It is taken personally. I personally do business in a way that both parties feel that they get something from the transaction. I do not subscribe to that of "one must lose for the other to win". I believe in a "win-win" transaction. But this cannot be the case when emotion is involved.
I have long maintained that the old "gentleman's agreement" of doing business is a thing of the past. I firmly agree with a contract that specifies the length of time a rider has a horse and what financial commitments are required of each party. Contracts are your friend, like a good fence makes for a good neighbour. A contract protects both parties from any misunderstandings. The time lines are set. A contract can be renegociated when it is due to expire or in mid term should the circumstances warrent.
For what ever her reason, Wynn has taken exception to the article and how she perceives it. I do not know the history there so will not comment on that. Riders are some of the poorest communicators and business people I have ever come accross. But riders have pushed to make the sport a business and had better pull their thumbs out of their arses and become better at "the business of being riders" in the world as it is today.

[Debbie]

I read the article and really felt for P Wynn's perspective, if not the public rant. From a business perspective the article did Wynn's programs no favors.Jaegermonster -- you've referenced repeatedly that CT is too classy to ever air dirty laundry publicly. You might recall the lengthy Devocoux thread and ratchet that back a little. I supported her on that thread, but it is undeniably taking a dispute public. I don't know CT and she appears to be a very sweet and focused competitor... emphasis on competitor and there ain't no doormats at the top of any sport -- riders or breeders.

[monstrpony]

Wow, what a tempest in a teapot! Christan has nothing to be embarassed or apologetic for. Pwynn clearly feels passionate about her breeding business, and well she should--she has done the impossible and deserves the credit. I've also seen her, in the past, get very heated about things that seem less important to everyone else; clearly, she is a passionate person about many thing related to her ponies. Genius often has it quirks; so be it. Without Pwynn, there would have been no Teddy; I can cope with the passion.

There's nothing wrong with saying that Pwynn's other ponies are not Teddys, it's an honest statement. It doesn't say that one of them might not turn out to be better than Teddy, or that others might be more saleable in the general market because they don't need a pro ride or a special partnership. Saying that the others are different does not belittle Pwynn's breeding program; it honors it, that it produced him in the first place. They can't all be Teddys; we wouldn't want them to be. Magic should never become an every day occurance.

Snatched or not, losing the ride on Teddy had to hurt. Christan has done herself proud in the way she has coped with it and how it has formed her own business. I hope she does well; eventing needs her kind.

(ETA--I agree w/ Debbie that the Devoucoux thread had similarities to what happened about this article; my personal reaction to it was, who needs a $4K saddle in the first place? Clearly, there are things about this business I am not able to appreciate, and I simply shrug and say, so be it.)

[snoopy]

When I talked with the woman who wrote that article, we were both discussing how it must have felt to a kid in her early 20s to have lost the ride on a horse that she had brought right up to the advanced level, only to have a famous rider get the ride.

And I probably did say that "IN A WAY" it felt like the pony was snatched away, meaning that I`ll bet it felt that way to her. I believe the author and I agreed that would have been how most people would have felt.

And I bet it did. But she never made any statement to that effect.



"Snatched" is not a word I would use, regardless of feeling. One who has been in this business/industry long enough knows better then to use that word as it does not translate very well in print. It envokes all sorts of emotion. I have never known that word to cause anything but problems....especially in THIS business. Denny, it was an unfortunate statement that opened an ugly can of worms where perception of the situation is involved. CT, in her youth, may have felt that way but to state as fact is a no no.

[DLee]

Christan does come across in the article (talking about Coda) kind of as "Don't bother with the other Teddy siblings, they are not so much like him, *I* have the one 'so much like Teddy it's scary.' " That's how it read to me.

I keep being reminded of Helen Pitts, who trained Curlin up to his first win. Curlin turned out to be a pretty big deal, and Steve Asmussen's name is now associated with him. It's just the way it goes sometimes.

It's too bad Denny said what he did and that there is kind of a sour grapes feel to the article in general, when obviously Christan is a very talented rider/trainer.

[Pixie Dust]

It was a really nice article and Christan seems like a delightful person. Some people take things just way too seriously!!

Can't wait to see how the new poneh does!!!

[sunnycher]

My Hubby always says there are 3 sides to every story, "yours, mine, and the truth".

Of course, emotions are running high regarding the whole mess. It would maybe have been better to let it lie vs. opening up cans and cans of worms, that most of us didn't know anything about.

It may be a timing issue as well. Rolex is almost here, we all remember and love 'the little horse that could (& did)', and thus the article now to sell magazines and shore up a sagging sport.

Grief over Teddy's loss is not yet gone for those involved and overreactions could be expected.

There are definately 3 camps here, CT supporters, Pwynn supporters, and the vast majority of the rest of us who know nothing of the details - my thoughts are - let it go, enough already. I want to remember Teddy without all of this.

Hopefully there will be another Teddy, we could sure use it!

[RAyers]

... But riders have pushed to make the sport a business and had better pull their thumbs out of their arses and become better at "the business of being riders" in the world as it is today.

SNORT! He said, "riders," "horses," and "business" in the same sentence. :lol:

Alex, I will take, Name three things absolutely incongruent with each other!

Reed

[cweimer]

sunnycher, my thoughts exactly (three sides to every story).

[RedMare01]

I'm glad the article was posted; I read the other thread after it was locked.

I personally saw nothing in the article that was derogatory in any way to Ms. Norman. In fact, there were quite a few compliments in there if you read closely. I can see how there are sensitivities for all involved, but there was nothing in that article to make that rant on the other thread reasonable.

Caitlin

[Janet]

SNORT! He said, "riders," "horses," and "business" in the same sentence. :lol:

Alex, I will take, Name three things absolutely incongruent with each other!

Reed
I dunno, I think "horses" and "riders" are pretty congurent. It is only "business" that is orthogonal to both of them.

[takethestage]

I'm glad the article was posted; I read the other thread after it was locked.

I personally saw nothing in the article that was derogatory in any way to Ms. Norman. In fact, there were quite a few compliments in there if you read closely. I can see how there are sensitivities for all involved, but there was nothing in that article to make that rant on the other thread reasonable.

Caitlin
My thoughts exactly. It might have gone a little far into the "bond between horse and rider" but hey, that's what magazine articles are for!

In reference to Denny's quote: “For somebody who, in a way, had the horse of a lifetime snatched out from under her, she has handled it all with incredible aplomb,” (my emphasis) I didn't interpret it as "she had the pony snatched out from under her" but as, here's a young rider who was learning the equestrian world the hard way and dealing with it better than expected.

It was a lovely article, with all the embellishments to be expected from a publication.

[Catalina]

As somebody who knows absolutely nothing about what goes on behind the scenes so to speak (and really doesn't care), I found the article to be well written, quite positive towards Teddy and his breeding and overall a good read. If there had never been any discussion about the nuances of Coda being so much like Teddy or about him being 'snatched' away, I never would have inferred that from the article. :confused:

[snoopy]

As somebody who knows absolutely nothing about what goes on behind the scenes so to speak (and really doesn't care), I found the article to be well written, quite positive towards Teddy and his breeding and overall a good read. If there had never been any discussion about the nuances of Coda being so much like Teddy or about him being 'snatched' away, I never would have inferred that from the article. :confused:





But there you said it...not knowing what is going on behind the scenes. There are those who may have more insight to the true feelings on the matter between both parties that the general public is not aware of.
For all we know there could very well be some simmering under current and a few unfortunate words or thoughts was enough to elevate that simmer to a boil.



"Snatched" is a term that is delicate at best. Whilst I understand the "term" the WAY in which Denny used it, never the less, the "verb" does not translate well in print or conversation with out a negative reaction. It was an unfortunate choice of word to use when describing the situation. Once you get to this point in the article it is hard not to continue without a certain perception.
I think no one meant for it to come off this was and it should be a reminder to pick and choose your words carefully when putting your thoughts on paper. Some may see it differently then the way it was meant. The written word is very much void of emotion and it is very easy to read context into content.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/snatched

[Catalina]

But there you said it...not knowing what is going on behind the scenes. There are those who may have more insight to the true feelings on the matter between both parties that the general public is not aware of.
For all we know there could very well be some simmering under current and a few unfortunate words or thoughts was enough to elevate that simmer to a boil.

I understand that, but why air it in public when the vast majority of us have no idea- and really don't care- about what kind of personality clashes are going on? :confused:

[snoopy]

I understand that, but why air it in public when the vast majority of us have no idea- and really don't care- about what kind of personality clashes are going on? :confused:



Yes well I think that very question and sentiment was leveled at Wynn in the thread that is now closed. I guess that is for Wynn to answer. Perhaps she felt CT aired something in print and her response was to air here on the chroicleforums, where both parties are active contributors. In any event, it really is an unfortunate situation.

[MaryKay]

Friend or not, the beating and abuse and public embarrassment that Christan took yesterday at the hands of Wynn were inexcusable. I posted the article because there are two sides to every story and here is side two. The article speaks for itself. And I think it is very clear who is owed the apology. Christan did not say one bad thing in any way about Wynn, her program or her animals.
Since the ranting was done in public so should the apology be. Now let's see if she's big enough to do it.
That was the point of it.


Amen! I don't know any of the parties involved but the rant on the other thread was so unprofessional and really does require a public apology-whatever is going on between the parties should have been handled privately. The one thing I found interesting about the rant, was Wynn kept going on about the years and hard work it took to put together her breeding program and that somehow CT has slighted that-but guess what, CT owns one of Wynn's off spring-if CT didn't have high regard for Wynn's breeding program why would she have bought Coda? The other stuff-is just business but that doesn't mean it isn't perfectly normal for CT to have been disappointed from losing the ride on Teddy-who wouldn't be?

[KellyS]

If words were taken out of context, it's a shame it isn't more common to allow the subject of an article to read the final version before it goes to print. I work on the medical side of publishing and EVERYTHING gets approved by authors before we publish, including letters to the editor. It is so easy to take something out of context or introduce an error while writing, editing, or designing.

Both times I've had an article in the eventing magazine (one time interviewed, the other time something I wrote), I asked to see the final layout before publication and they were happy to oblige. I did the same for an interview in an article that was published in one of the Johns Hopkins magazines. Better than cringing when the article gets published! But I don't think I would have asked if I wasn't used to the process at work.

I really didn't get an bad impression of anyone from the article. You always have to take articles like that with a grain of salt. Plus, if the original ranting thread hadn't been posted I woud never have read it.

[Eventfan4LIFE]

If words were taken out of context, it's a shame it isn't more common to allow the subject of an article to read the final version before it goes to print. I work on the medical side of publishing and EVERYTHING gets approved by authors before we publish, including letters to the editor. It is so easy to take something out of context or introduce an error while writing, editing, or designing..

I personally would have little respect for any journalist or media outlet that allowed the SUBJECT of an article to review and approve an article before it was published. If the SUBJECT wishes to play by those rules, they should hire a publicist and put out press releases singing their praises. Just don't call it JOURNALISM.

[KellyS]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying...this wasn't some type of investigative journalism, it was a feel good kind of interview. Why wouldn't you give someone who's been interviewed like that the chance to see what you wrote? If Christan's or Denny's statement were taken out of context (not saying they were), it would have saved a whole lot of heartache to clarify them BEFORE this was published. But then, we wouldn't have this trainwreck, would we? :winkgrin:

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't know all of the issues involved, but Teddy was for SALE. He was not taken away from CT. SHE declined to BUY him. Instead, the article made his owner/breeder look like a mean, ungrateful person, when exactly the opposite is true. His breeder provided CT with an incredible athlete. Who was ungrateful? Do we hear a thank-you? Nope, we hear a put down saying Wynn’s program didn’t work for the rest of her horses. Just a lucky freak or two.

I am a breeder. Breeding in this country is such a mess. We have a thread holding it together. Breeders are struggling every day to PROVE that breeding is NOT a crapshoot. We have trainers and riders that brag on finding the crappy horse in the field, and THEY made the horse into something special. We have riders and trainers fighting against the one number program because they want to intentionally be able to lose a horse. They are fighting to make sure that breeders are NEVER given credit for what we create. The reason we are NEVER given credit is that 99% of the riders and trainers don’t believe breeding IS predictable. This is an INCREDIBLE opportunity to PROVE that we DO know what we are doing, contrary to a BNTs article.

"A slip of the lip can sink a ship" applies to breeding programs. It is totally irresponsible to the breeder that provided you with a talented horse to not take care with words that can do irreparable damage to a breeding program.

If our top riders & trainers can't be more responsible to breeders in this country, then it just proves what a disaster we are fighting against. If people that have a voice to media continue to say things to take away the general public's confidence in a breeding program, we might as well just quit, and leave you all to the imports. Don't for one second think that those prices will not skyrocket if there is not talent being bred daily in this country. OH, I guess that is the point. Raising up those commissions.

[ponyjumper4]

I understand your point of view as a breeder, but there are some inaccuracies to your claims above. There is more to the story but it is not my place to share the details.

Regardless, the article was a nice piece and knowing more of the story I don't see where there is any issue with this article. Things get taken out of context in anything written, in any interview. I've seen other pieces written more about the Wynn, KOC, and Teddy relationship with inaccuracies about Christan and her time with him, but she didn't raise cane over it. No need for the nonsense yesterday.

[snoopy]

I personally would have little respect for any journalist or media outlet that allowed the SUBJECT of an article to review and approve an article before it was published. If the SUBJECT wishes to play by those rules, they should hire a publicist and put out press releases singing their praises. Just don't call it JOURNALISM.



:confused:

I am sure there is a job opening with the national enquirer for you with that thought process. Final copy approval is common when one is being INTERVIEWED...for this very reason. Any publication that does not allow this is up to NO GOOD. It ceases to be about the subject and more about the writer.

[Eventfan4LIFE]

Snoopy and Kelly S, with all due respect, do either of you know how the process of writing and publishing an article works? I am tangentially involved in broadcast media and have many friends who are reporters...furthermore I have a minor in journalism...so let me share:

- Writer and subject agree to meet for interview.
- Writer arrives, pen and pad in hand, maybe tape recorder.
- Writer asks if tape recorder may be used, subject either agrees or declines.
- Interview begins. During the course of the interview it is UP TO THE INTERVIEWEE TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS OFF THE RECORD. Anything that is not stipulated as OFF THE RECORD is fair game.

Now, let's (for argument's sake and merely to illustrate a point) say I get an interview with Tom Cruise. We all know he's famous for his rants, and this is my lucky day: He admits to to me that his marriage to Katie is a sham, and that he simply married her to pass on his DNA. He adds that he enjoys eating live squirrels dipped in chocolate sauce.
I take this information and write a story. Do I show this story to Tom Cruise for his approval? Would you?
When a subject agrees to be inerviewed, they know the rules implicit in the agreement to be interviewed. You are both suggesting that subjects should be treated with kid gloves and allowed to rescind or retract what they may have said ON THE RECORD once they see it in print.
PWynn isn't even really the subject of the story we are all hashing over...apparently the subject is fine with the finished product, and I'm assuming Denny had no major beef with it?

[MaryKay]

Honestly, after the thread that Wynn posted, there is no way I would do business with someone who conducts themselves in a public forum the way she did and I can't believe her business won't suffer from it. I hope she is able to right the ship-I always found her posts to be intelligent, thoughtful and thought provoking until the "rant" thread which was way over the top. She did herself and her business a tremendous disservice. Teddy spoke for her breeding program-she should have left it at that.

[Fairview Horse Center]

But CT's statement destroyed the confidence in the PROGRAM. How is Wynn not supposed to be upset about that? She absolutely had to publicly correct that, and her upsetment is just trying to fight attitude towards us breeders.

[snoopy]

Snoopy and Kelly S, with all due respect, do either of you know how the process of writing and publishing an article works? I am tangentially involved in broadcast media and have many friends who are reporters...furthermore I have a minor in journalism...so let me share:

- Writer and subject agree to meet for interview.
- Writer arrives, pen and pad in hand, maybe tape recorder.
- Writer asks if tape recorder may be used, subject either agrees or declines.
- Interview begins. During the course of the interview it is UP TO THE INTERVIEWEE TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS OFF THE RECORD. Anything that is not stipulated as OFF THE RECORD is fair game.

Now, let's (for argument's sake and merely to illustrate a point) say I get an interview with Tom Cruise. We all know he's famous for his rants, and this is my lucky day: He admits to to me that his marriage to Katie is a sham, and that he simply married her to pass on his DNA. He adds that he enjoys eating live squirrels dipped in chocolate sauce.
I take this information and write a story. Do I show this story to Tom Cruise for his approval? Would you?
When a subject agrees to be inerviewed, they know the rules implicit in the agreement to be interviewed. You are both suggesting that subjects should be treated with kid gloves and allowed to rescind or retract what they may have said ON THE RECORD once they see it in print.
PWynn isn't even really the subject of the story we are all hashing over...apparently the subject is fine with the finished product, and I'm assuming Denny had no major beef with it?


No not WHAT they said, but HOW it was said. There is a difference and you should know that!!! Content and context are too different things. If the interviewer gets the context wrong in the final copy it is up to a prudent interviewee to correct that. Only a reporter with self serving intent would not allow the subject to read the final copy and to clarify context BEFORE submission. It is not a retraction but clarification.

[Janet]

Journalism.

Many years ago,I was inteviewed for a "feel good" piece on a local newspaper. I asked to see it before it was published, but they declined. As a result, the published piece had a number of factual errors, presumably due to the writer not taking good enough notes. Nothing to hurt anyone's feelings, but enough to make people who knew me go :eek:.

The same thing has happened to my sister and my father. It is just a consequence of allowing yourself to be interviewed by the press. If you aren't prepared to be misunderstood or misinterpreted, don't agree to the interview.

[Janet]

But CT's statement destroyed the confidence in the PROGRAM. How is Wynn not supposed to be upset about that? She absolutely had to publicly correct that, and her upsetment is just trying to fight attitude towards us breeders.
I didn't see ANYTHING that any rational person could POSSIBLY interpret as "destroying confidence in the program".

I didn't see anything that could be interpreted as "attitude towards breeders".

If there was, then it would be different (but still no need to go off the deep end).

But there WASN"T.

[Youbetcha!]

These links may have already been posted...

Just thought these were interesting...direct from the horses mouth so to speak:

"Christan's confident riding also started Teddy's full brother, Cassidy, on the right tracks as she introduced that youngster to his first Preliminarly level schooling jumps as well."

http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Teddy_and_Christan.html
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Teddy_and_Karen.html

[Eventfan4LIFE]

That's a shame, Janet, and it does happen. However, who is charging that FACTUAL errors were made in the CT story, other than Wynn? If her gripe is that her breeding program was somehow maligned by CT's statement, well, how is the publication responsible for printing what CT said? And...please, let's have cooler heads prevail here...Wynn is surely in the minority when it comes to interpreting alleged negative comments regarding her breeding program.
Bottom line: If everyone quoted in the CT story feels their viewpoint was fairly interpreted, then bravo to USEA magazine for a wonderful story on a very gritty rider who has overcome a lot of adversity besides losing Teddy: I guess no one read the part where her baby brother drowned and her family dissolved because of it?

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

I didnt see the other thread but am I wrong in thinking that this was an article about CT? What, CT now has to name drop Teddy's breeder and fawn over her in every article? It's an article about CT. Not an article about Teddy's breeder or even about Teddy, really. It is an article about CT's growth as a rider, her different rides, her thought process, her perception of how it feels to lose a great horse, and what she's doing now.

Not to mention, I found it entirely complimentary of Teddy and his breeder. I didn't see one negative thing in there.

Talk about self absorbed, this article isn't about you. Neither are love songs you hear on the radio, even if it seems like they're telling your story. This is an article about CT!

[Shortstroke]

What I loved about the article was the picture of CT when she was a little kid in jodphurs - what a wonerful position! She could be a poster child for correct postion over fences. What was most disturbing about the rant to me was the part about riders being lawn darts. My horse is a sport pony. No way do I want to be a lawn dart and I'm thankful that even though my guy can be full of himself he isn't into throwing lawn darts. I don't think it is something to brag about (which is the way it came across to me in one of the breeder's posts.)

[snoopy]

Factual errors should not occur if the reporter is taping or writing things accurately. This interview may have been factualy in what was said, but could be way off base in its context. Perception is key here. Anyone who engages the media should have media training for this very reason. Reporters are in the business of selling their stories. One should always have the opportunity to have final copy approval and be able to read for content and context, if this is not possible then one should not grant the interview. We are all at the mercy of perception and editing which on many occasions has not be kind and often inaccurate.

And yes I do know a bit about the media as many friends are in the entertainment industry and I am more than aware of how things work.

[KellyS]

Snoopy and Kelly S, with all due respect, do either of you know how the process of writing and publishing an article works?

Um, as managing editor of a rather successful veterinary medicine journal with a national and international subscriber base, I would have to say, I hope so. :winkgrin: But my colleagues just got a kick out of that question!

I will say that in the rather tame world of medical publishing, journals do put a lot of stock in reporting accurately and in context. When a wrong dosage can mean life or death for the patient, that's probably a good thing.

But, man, I would love to interview Tom Cruise! Guess I'll just have to stick to reading People in the grocery store line. :D

[Fairview Horse Center]

I didn't see ANYTHING that any rational person could POSSIBLY interpret as "destroying confidence in the program".

I didn't see anything that could be interpreted as "attitude towards breeders".



That is the whole problem. People not seeing that the statement was VERY damaging to a breeder, but the perception will linger. Saying that others of that cross didn't have the talent is ruining what we struggle to prove. We MUST prove that talent is predictable.

Allowing people to think this horse was ripped out from under her by an ungrateful breeder is a horrible attitude toward breeders.

[Eventfan4LIFE]

Only a reporter with self serving intent would not allow the subject to read the final copy and to clarify context BEFORE submission..

Does anyone know if CT was allowed to see any of the Teddy stories she was interviewed for over the years?

[SevenDogs]

But CT's statement destroyed the confidence in the PROGRAM. How is Wynn not supposed to be upset about that? She absolutely had to publicly correct that, and her upsetment is just trying to fight attitude towards us breeders.


... um...no...Ms. Norman did the damage to herself. I had no knowledge of any of the parties in this transaction and have read both the article and Ms. Norman's posts and the ONLY thing "destroyed" here, is any respect I had for Ms. Norman. In many other threads, she has seen fit to chastise the rest of the horse world for it's lack of professionalism ad naseum, particularly if anyone disagrees with one of her posts. I have never seen a larger display of unprofessionalism and insulting behavior than that shown by Ms. Norman in her two posts here on this subject.

Quite honestly, the only way Ms. Norman will regain any respect from me (and I would suppose many other folks) is through a public apology for her posts. Regardless of whether or not Ms. Norman's felt slighted, damaged, or otherwise had a bad day, week or year, her rantings created this situation and should be rectified by her, personally.

[snoopy]

Does anyone know if CT was allowed to see any of the Teddy stories she was interviewed for over the years?



The question should be if she ASKED to see (before submission) any of the Teddy stories she was interviewed for over the years. This is part and parcel of being media savey.

[Eventfan4LIFE]

Factual errors should not occur if the reporter is taping or writing things accurately. This interview may have been factualy in what was said, but could be way off base in its context. Perception is key here. Anyone who engages the media should have media training for this very reason. Reporters are in the business of selling their stories. One should always have the opportunity to have final copy approval and be able to read for content and context, if this is not possible then one should not grant the interview. We are all at the mercy of perception and editing which on many occasions has not be kind and often inaccurate.

And yes I do know a bit about the media as many friends are in the entertainment industry and I am more than aware of how things work.


Perception is interpretation based on memory and experience. Everyone has a different memory and different experiences, and most of those reading the CT story saw it for what it was.

[KellyS]

Factual errors should not occur if the reporter is taping or writing things accurately. This interview may have been factualy in what was said, but could be way off base in its context. Perception is key here. Anyone who engages the media should have media training for this very reason. Reporters are in the business of selling their stories. One should always have the opportunity to have final copy approval and be able to read for content and context, if this is not possible then one should not grant the interview. We are all at the mercy of perception and editing which on many occasions has not be kind and often inaccurate.

And yes I do know a bit about the media as many friends are in the entertainment industry and I am more than aware of how things work.

Snoopy, I'd love to work with you some day! You certainly understand how publishing SHOULD work. :)

Oh my...I just looked at EventFan4Life's previous posts...it's like a People edition of the eventing world. :lol:

[snoopy]

Perception is interpretation based on memory and experience. Everyone has a different memory and different experiences, and most of those reading the CT story saw it for what it was.



And so did I!!! But this subject would not be discussed had some minor but very important steps been taken BEFORE submission.

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

Saying that others of that cross didn't have the talent is ruining what we struggle to prove.


CT didn't SAY that the other Teddy relatives didn't have the talent! Wowwee zowwie, go back and READ. CT said that her Cody was errily like Teddy. She didn't say "and the rest of the lot are a load of crap." OMG, it's like CT must gush over each and every Teddy relative or else she's dissing the entire program. Get a grip! Of course she thinks Coda is the best, she bought him, didn't she? Doesn't mean she thinks the rest are crap or that Teddy was a fluke. Seriously. Stop reading between the lines for some thing that's just not there!

[eventer_mi]

....but I keep seeing this brought up time and time again. Even if I wasn't privy to the details of what actually happened, I cannot see how someone can get this:

But CT's statement destroyed the confidence in the PROGRAM. How is Wynn not supposed to be upset about that? She absolutely had to publicly correct that, and her upsetment is just trying to fight attitude towards us breeders.

from this: “He’s so much like Teddy, it’s scary,” Trainor said on a sunny Saturday afternoon at Denny Emerson’s Tamarack Hill Farm in Southern Pines, NC. “Teddy’s other siblings haven’t been so much like him. Coda is very forward and quick. He’s really tuned inwant to breed their dream pony,” Trainor said. “His thoroughbred line is phenomenal.”

All Christan is saying is that Coda, out of all the siblings, is MOST LIKE HIM. Not saying that the other ponies are crap, or that Wynn's breeding program is a sham, just that Coda is nearly identical to his full brother, Teddy. That's all. Cat is not like him - she's a bay, and Kevlar is not like him - he's a seal brown (right? or bay?). Coda is practically his identical twin brother. Then she goes on to say that Coda is "very tuned in". Not saying that the others are NOT, just stating her opinion of Coda and how he is to ride/train. The compliment about the Thoroughbred side of Coda/Teddy/all the sibs is quite a compliment - to use a word like "phenomenal" is a very strong choice. People are jumping over Denny's choice of word in using "snatched"; well, "phenomenal" is just as strong of a word, and very, very positive. I admire the hard work and the gamble that breeders do for our sport. I have a wonderful gelding who is the result of a well-thought out breeding program. I personally would not take that kind of gamble in breeding a foal, so I commend those who put it all out on the line. This article was NOT about breeding, or about Wynn's program, or even really about Teddy. There have been articles written about Wynn's program and I don't see anybody giving Christan credit about quotes like this: "Trainor, describing Coda, said “he reminds me so much of his big brother it is uncanny, with the same amazing jump and big stride.” She went on to say,“[B]I am grateful to Wynn for giving me the opportunity to be a part of Teddy’s career and I am really excited to be able to continue with the full brother.” [from the EventingUSA website] (again, bold is my emphasis)

It's about CHRISTAN, and it's basically a rider profile. That's why you have the personal spin - you're supposed to feature her accomplishments, the highs and lows of her career/life, and her feelings about matters. Yes, it hurts when you lose a horse, for whatever reason. Christan has every right to air the fact that that time in her history was a painful one, and if you ask me, she was very tactful about it, IN AN ARTICLE THAT FEATURED HER. It would be a different story if the article was about Wynn's wonderful breeding program. Don't speculate if you do not know the details. It's human nature to read into the written word things that are not stated - it's one of the shortcomings of email and text. However, don't expect everybody to take your interpretation as fact. By all means, if you are going to go publicly on a forum and criticize someone, have all the facts before jumping to conclusions. That goes for both Christan's supporters as well as those who support Wynn (and isn't it a shame that we had to differentiate between the two?).

The author of the article is an active member of this forum, and I say we owe her an apology as well.

[SevenDogs]

I am a breeder. Breeding in this country is such a mess. We have a thread holding it together. Breeders are struggling every day to PROVE that breeding is NOT a crapshoot. We have trainers and riders that brag on finding the crappy horse in the field, and THEY made the horse into something special. We have riders and trainers fighting against the one number program because they want to intentionally be able to lose a horse. They are fighting to make sure that breeders are NEVER given credit for what we create. The reason we are NEVER given credit is that 99% of the riders and trainers don’t believe breeding IS predictable. This is an INCREDIBLE opportunity to PROVE that we DO know what we are doing, contrary to a BNTs article.

"A slip of the lip can sink a ship" applies to breeding programs. It is totally irresponsible to the breeder that provided you with a talented horse to not take care with words that can do irreparable damage to a breeding program.

If our top riders & trainers can't be more responsible to breeders in this country, then it just proves what a disaster we are fighting against. If people that have a voice to media continue to say things to take away the general public's confidence in a breeding program, we might as well just quit, and leave you all to the imports. Don't for one second think that those prices will not skyrocket if there is not talent being bred daily in this country. OH, I guess that is the point. Raising up those commissions.

Um... you are coming across as only slightly less crazy than Ms. Norman did. As if the entire world owes you something because you are a Breeder. "Fighting against a disaster"? Really.... a disaster... REALLY?

We have trainers and riders that brag on finding the crappy horse in the field, and THEY made the horse into something special.

Um... yeah... part of what many of us love about this sport is the Cinderella stories that are a part of our history.

Seriously, if you breeders want respect for your programs, STOP posting your rants here. It is not helping your cause!

[LexInVA]

Snoopy, I'd love to work with you some day! You certainly understand how publishing SHOULD work. :)

Of course he does! After all those years filming and producing Baywatch in LA, he had to have come away from the decade long experience with more than just a great tan and CPR certification. :lol:

[hey101]

... um...no...Ms. Norman did the damage to herself. I had no knowledge of any of the parties in this transaction and have read both the article and Ms. Norman's posts and the ONLY thing "destroyed" here, is any respect I had for Ms. Norman. In many other threads, she has see fit to chastise the rest of the horse world for it's lack of professionalism ad naseum, particularly if anyone disagrees with one of her posts. I have never seen a larger display of unprofessionalism and insulting behavior than that shown by Ms. Norman in her two posts here on this subject.

Quite honestly, the only way Ms. Norman will regain any respect from me (and I would suppose many other folks) is through a public apology for her posts. Regardless of whether or not Ms. Norman's felt slighted, damaged, or otherwise had a bad day, week or year, her rantings created this situation and should be rectified by her, personally.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. Thank you for typing this so I don't have to myself. Utterly ridiculous behavior on P. Norman's part. I admire her program, have visited her website, wondered if I'd ever buy one of her ponies inthe future for my children. But now, if by chance I would have ever had the opportunity do do business with that individual, I will now think long and hard about doing so. This business is hard enough and it is ranting displays of UNPROFESSIONALISM that loses you customers before they've even had a chance to become your customer.

[ponyjumper4]

Does anyone know if CT was allowed to see any of the Teddy stories she was interviewed for over the years?

I know she didn't see this one. She didn't even know it was going to be in this issue--she was interviewed for it several months ago.

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

Hear hear evente_mi, I think the article was well written and not negative in any way about ANYONE. Someone who sees negativity in that article is looking for a reason to be upset, because its just not there.

[KellyS]

Of course he does! After all those years filming and producing Baywatch in LA, he had to have come away from the decade long experience with more than just a great tan and CPR certification. :lol:

:lol: :D :cool:

[Eventfan4LIFE]

Of course he does! After all those years filming and producing Baywatch in LA, he had to have come away from the decade long experience with more than just a great tan and CPR certification. :lol:

I knew it.
Snoopy is...THE HOFF.

[snoopy]

For the record I have not taken any side what so ever. My concern is more with how media relations could be handled better so that this piece would have had a better effect. That is assuming that some things were indeed taken out of context....hell, maybe it was factual in both its content and context. That is for CT to address.

So I see both sides of this "story". I can see why Wynn would take exception and I can see CT point of view. It all boils down to which story I "perceive" to be more accurate....but without knowing the nuts and bolts of the situation first hand I will never know. Over and out.

[eventer_mi]

Oh, and why do people think that Christan must always have to mention Wynn in everything she says about Teddy or Coda? I just looked over Karen O'Connor's website, and NO WHERE does it mention Christan and what she did. Because she doesn't have to. It's her website.

Christan does not have to give props to anybody - it's her article. But she does. Kudos to her for doing so.

[Eventfan4LIFE]

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner.

[snoopy]

I just looked over Karen O'Connor's website, and NO WHERE does it mention Christan and what she did. Because she doesn't have to. It's her website.



I know many riders who have taken over the ride on a horse who go out of their way to recognize the effort and work put in by the previous rider.
KOC not mentioning CT is no surprise to me, if it ain't about KOC it ain't worth discussing. And I can confirm content AND context.:cool:

Now I must get back to my pressing schedule of recording my next CD for my faithful german audience.:lol:

[tja789]

But CT's statement destroyed the confidence in the PROGRAM. How is Wynn not supposed to be upset about that? She absolutely had to publicly correct that, and her upsetment is just trying to fight attitude towards us breeders.

I have to agree with the majority. Having read the article, I could find absolutely nothing suggesting that CT deliberately or accidentally insulted Pwynn's breeding program. Actually, the article left me with a very positive impression of the program and the fabulous ponies Pwynn has bred. Pwynn's unjustified rant, definitely not so much.

When I first heard Teddy's story, when he was competing with KOC, I remember thinking that it was sad he had been transferred to KOC from the young rider who brought him up through the levels. However, it never occurred to me to be critical of his owner/breeder--it's very understandable that she couldn't financially support his show career, and it's understandable that CT couldn't either. Actually, I felt a bit disappointed in KOC because it seemed to me that she could have used her considerable influence in the sport to help get sponsorship for CT and Teddy instead of accepting the ride for herself. She has experienced so many opportunities and has had so much success in eventing, and this was a chance to give back to the sport by offering a hand to a younger rider still struggling to make it. Of course I know that KOC didn't have to do this. Obviously she's a great rider had a right to accept the ride on Teddy for herself. But I think she missed a chance to do something exceptionally generous and meaningful.

[Janet]

Saying that others of that cross didn't have the talent is ruining what we struggle to prove.

Please tell me where it says that. _I_ can't find it, not even "between the lines". Only that one hores is "so" like another, more than the other siblings. That is ALWAYS going to be the case. They are all different, not clones.
We MUST prove that talent is predictable.
Sorry, you can't prove something that isn't true. Even in the very specialized area of TB racing, talent is not predictable.

Allowing people to think this horse was ripped out from under her by an ungrateful breeder is a horrible attitude toward breeders.

Nope, it is just acknowledging that anytime you ride for an owner (doesn't matter if the owner was the breeder or not) the owner may take the horse away at any point. (No different from the comments on threads about free leases, where the person leasing feels bad when the owner takes the horse back.)

Obviously, the owner has that right, but it doesn't make it any easier when it happens to you. But dealing with it is part of the process of "becoming a professional". Since that was, in large part, the focus of the article, it would have been a major ommision to imply that she didn't care when she lost the ride.

Nothing to do with ANYONE being grateful or ungrateful. Just recognizing that when you enter into a business relationship involving a living animal, your feelings may be hurt.

[snoopy]

When I first heard Teddy's story, when he was competing with KOC, I remember thinking that it was sad he had been transferred to KOC from the young rider who brought him up through the levels. However, it never occurred to me to be critical of his owner/breeder--it's very understandable that she couldn't financially support his show career, and it's understandable that CT couldn't either. Actually, I felt a bit disappointed in KOC because it seemed to me that she could have used her considerable influence in the sport to help get sponsorship for CT and Teddy instead of accepting the ride for herself. She has experienced so many opportunities and has had so much success in eventing, and this was a chance to give back to the sport by offering a hand to a younger rider still struggling to make it. Of course I know that KOC didn't have to do this. Obviously she's a great rider had a right to accept the ride on Teddy for herself. But I think she missed a chance to do something exceptionally generous and meaningful.[/QUOTE]


F.A.B.U.L.O.U.S!!!!!:yes:

[Eventfan4LIFE]

Snoopy, it's come to my attention that you have first-hand experience with the sleazy tactics used by the media...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-FJyniP7A

[snoopy]

Snoopy, it's come to my attention that you have first-hand experience with the sleazy tactics used by the media...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82-FJyniP7A



Exactly...I did not ask for copy approval from my own daughter. If I had this shameful episode would have never seen the light of day.:lol:

[Pixie Dust]

They are fighting to make sure that breeders are NEVER given credit for what we create.

Hrmmmm, this explains a lot about breeders.

[Ajierene]

RE: The subject mentioned previously ( I believe only on the other post) that P Wynn did what she could to rectify the perception that Karen brought Teddy up from the beginning of his career. It was not until after coming onto these boards and after Teddy's death that I realized that Karen had only ridden him a very few years and the pony was already an advanced pony at this time. This was not information gotten from here, from any article, or anything I happened to see (not a Teddy fanatic, so I did not spend hours looking him up on the internet or anything). This is information I got from my trainer in discussing Teddy's life. This does include the tribute thread to him - not one word from anyone, P Wynn or Karen. So if P Wynn did say anything, it did not reach the 'fringes' of the sport. Isn't that damaging to a trainer? Having everyone think that Teddy was brought farther along by Karen than he was?

RE: The sentence talking about how Teddy and Coda were not like his siblings. Well, I do remember Karen saying that Teddy was not really a child's pony at one point. I took this to mean he did not have a forgiving personality that a pony should have to pack horses around. I took Christan's article in the magazine to mean he did not have the personality that she really clicked with - it may be like me saying my trainer's retired advanced horse is nice, but not like my mare (Novice horse). It does not mean the horse is less talented, just not the same. P Wynn tried to 'correct' this by saying how talented her ponies are, as evidenced by their abilities to lawn dart people. Ponies are usually for kids or more timid adults. If I were looking for a pony for my 'uber' talented kid and it lawn darted my kid....chances are we are talking a no sale. A timid rider would get up and walk away immediately.

RE: Fairview Horse Center's comment in post #53. She commented that Christan declined to buy the pony. The article states that Christan was trying to get a syndicate together to buy the pony. If the article is wrong, then that does need to be corrected, but as the article stands, this Fairview Horse Center's statement appears to be a result of incorrect reading.

RE: Information about when Teddy left Christan and when he went to Karen. The article states that Christan was informed that Teddy would be going to Karen a few days after she arrived in North Carolina - NOT that he did. When P Wynn was trying to 'set the record straight' she said he did not go to Karen's until the fall, after several unanswered phone calls to Karen ended in a certified letter. A clear indication that P Wynn had this in mind when she took Teddy back. It also leaves the appearance that the only reason Teddy did not go to Karen in the Spring/ Early Summer was because she could not connect with Karen.

RE: Any statements hurting P Wynn's business. Well, breeding is all about reputation. Part of that is the reputation you yourself facilitate. Ranting on a public forum, followed by insulting the people you are ranting at is going to do much worse for your reputation than two ambiguous sentences in an article.


Overall, coming from an outsider and reading the article after I read the rant - and looking for basis for the rant - I was drawn to an article about a young trainer trying to make it in the business. Someone that dealt with family loss and decisions about education versus riding as well as the pain that any young 20 something will feel about losing a great ride and the lessons about the training business world that these events bring. I still find the rant to be unfounded.

[LexInVA]

As has been said, it's all about perception and interpretation.

[Janet]

We have riders and trainers fighting against the one number program because they want to intentionally be able to lose a horse. They are fighting to make sure that breeders are NEVER given credit for what we create. I support "One number" and I give credit to the breeders of my horses whenever I have the opportunity.

For the record

Spy was bred by Charles Eyler who also bred JJ Babu (And the differences between Spy and his full sister, Daisy, are one reason I am sckeptical about breeding as a predictor of talent)

Music was bred by Julie Andrew, who posts here. (Music's sire died shortly after I bought her, so there are not a lot of siblings for comparison.)

Brain (whom I no longer own) was bred by Stephanie Millham's uncle, Chuck Grant (now dead).

Belle was bred by Mary Dearden (And I DO think that a lot of Belle's talent is related to her sire (Fiddler's Glory Boy) and grandsire (*Grange Finn Sparrow).)

Chief was bred by Megan Gillenwater, who posts here.

[snoopy]

As has been said, it's all about perception and interpretation.


Whilst that can never be completely ruled out it can, however, be minimalized.

[Jealoushe]

The question should be if she ASKED to see (before submission) any of the Teddy stories she was interviewed for over the years. This is part and parcel of being media savey.

but wasn't it denny who said the most controversial piece? (not in my eyes just what I'm gathering)

Is this about the snatching, or the breeding program?

It can't possibly be about BOTH :cool:

[NeverTime]

Perhaps I'm a bit overly sensitive today, but for all of you trashing journalists and their motives, take a moment to go to www.rockymountainnews.com and read the columns (upper right) from just a few of the amazing newspaper people losing their jobs today.

I think they give a pretty good idea of just how much journalists, as a group, care about their work and the job they do, contrary to the seemingly popular opinion that we're all a bunch of slimey, morally corrupt ambulance-chasers driven by ego, dollars and the thrill of "spinning" a story to make it as inaccurate as possible.

Please.

[flyingchange]

... um...no...Ms. Norman did the damage to herself. I had no knowledge of any of the parties in this transaction and have read both the article and Ms. Norman's posts and the ONLY thing "destroyed" here, is any respect I had for Ms. Norman. In many other threads, she has seen fit to chastise the rest of the horse world for it's lack of professionalism ad naseum, particularly if anyone disagrees with one of her posts. I have never seen a larger display of unprofessionalism and insulting behavior than that shown by Ms. Norman in her two posts here on this subject.

Quite honestly, the only way Ms. Norman will regain any respect from me (and I would suppose many other folks) is through a public apology for her posts. Regardless of whether or not Ms. Norman's felt slighted, damaged, or otherwise had a bad day, week or year, her rantings created this situation and should be rectified by her, personally.

Ditto.

[2LaZ2race]

Actually, I felt a bit disappointed in KOC because it seemed to me that she could have used her considerable influence in the sport to help get sponsorship for CT and Teddy instead of accepting the ride for herself. She has experienced so many opportunities and has had so much success in eventing, and this was a chance to give back to the sport by offering a hand to a younger rider still struggling to make it. Of course I know that KOC didn't have to do this. Obviously she's a great rider had a right to accept the ride on Teddy for herself. But I think she missed a chance to do something exceptionally generous and meaningful.

This idea that KOC could have helped CT find sponsorship to ride Teddy is an interesting point BUT the information that was given to us from the ranting breeders mouth was that she (the breeder) had been trying to get in touch with KOC for a long time, KOC wasn't responding to her, etc. We as outsiders can't know what she was saying to KOC but it is wrong to assume that P.Wynn said:

"I have this wonderful rider that needs help continuing her path on Teddy"

and KOC said "NO! *insert evil laugh* I will take the horse and all the glory that comes with it!" :mad:

We just can't assume it happened like that. The breeder very well could have been trying to get help for CT and KOC jumped at the chance for the ride OR the breeder for whatever reason could have decided that she wanted to get KOC to ride the horse OR it could have been something totally different.

who knows :confused:

[2LaZ2race]

Breeders are struggling every day to PROVE that breeding is NOT a crapshoot. We have trainers and riders that brag on finding the crappy horse in the field, and THEY made the horse into something special.

.

*barf*

Just because I can get gourmet pizza made by Wolfgang Puck doesn't mean i'm not going to eat that forgotten hot pocket waaaay in the back of my freezer.

[Sebastian]

Now, let's (for argument's sake and merely to illustrate a point) say I get an interview with Tom Cruise. We all know he's famous for his rants, and this is my lucky day: He admits to to me that his marriage to Katie is a sham, and that he simply married her to pass on his DNA. He adds that he enjoys eating live squirrels dipped in chocolate sauce.
I take this information and write a story. Do I show this story to Tom Cruise for his approval? Would you?
When a subject agrees to be inerviewed, they know the rules implicit in the agreement to be interviewed. You are both suggesting that subjects should be treated with kid gloves and allowed to rescind or retract what they may have said ON THE RECORD once they see it in print.


Seriously, I have NO dog in this fight...

But, the above is TRULY naive. And, the "industry" of journalism is NOTHING like they told you in school.

Seb :)

[Fairview Horse Center]

When I first heard Teddy's story, when he was competing with KOC, I remember thinking that it was sad he had been transferred to KOC from the young rider who brought him up through the levels. However, it never occurred to me to be critical of his owner/breeder

That is exactly the way I felt until I read this article. After reading this article, I was upset with Wynn for snatching the ride. Once Wynn had clarified that the horse was removed from training with CT in the spring, and not placed With KOC until the fall, then that statement in the article was very hurtful to Wynn. During those months, Teddy was for sale, and I am sure CT's money would have been as good as anyone else's.

Saying that this one is the only one like Teddy, is also hurtful to the breeder. Wynn intentionally breeds for a very tuned in/turned on horse. The article leaves the impression that the rest are not. Breeding for certain traits is actually VERY predictable, but the attitude that it is a crapshoot is strong in this country. I don't breed for racing, but I do breed for jump, and every single horse I have ever produced has a lovely jump. Will they all go to the olympics? Nope. Other traits I purposely breed for will send the horse in a different direction.

[enjoytheride]

This idea that KOC could have helped CT find sponsorship to ride Teddy is an interesting point BUT the information that was given to us from the ranting breeders mouth was that she (the breeder) had been trying to get in touch with KOC for a long time, KOC wasn't responding to her, etc. We as outsiders can't know what she was saying to KOC but it is wrong to assume that P.Wynn said:

"I have this wonderful rider that needs help continuing her path on Teddy"

and KOC said "NO! *insert evil laugh* I will take the horse and all the glory that comes with it!" :mad:

We just can't assume it happened like that. The breeder very well could have been trying to get help for CT and KOC jumped at the chance for the ride OR the breeder for whatever reason could have decided that she wanted to get KOC to ride the horse OR it could have been something totally different.

who knows :confused:

I think that is my problem with the whole thing. We have what pwnn said happened, then we have an article saying that the pony was taken directly to KOC's farm (which pwnn said did not happen), then we have a trainer saying "snatched", we also have a bunch of christian's friends adament on makng sure her name is mentioned every single time Teddy is mentioned. People saying she was denied her ride at Rolex, etc.


How is it supposed to happen? As a breeder with a famous horse do you need to mention every single other rider of the horse's past? Can yo appreciate what a rider did for your horse without mentioning them constantly? As a breeder do you need to worry about moving a horse to a different rider? Should you feel "bad"? Should you take the best opportunities for your horse?

As a rider what do you expect when someone asks you to ride their horse and they pay your way? If the horse is moved on how would you feel? Would you feel robbed? Would you say damn this is the way it works?

[Jaegermonster]

The article does not say "within days Teddy was moved to KOC's farm" or that he was "taken directly to" said farm

the article says:

"Trainor and Teddy moved back to North Carolina
in early 2005, and within days Norman informed her
Teddy would be returning to the O’Connors’ farm"


no where does it say WHEN the horse himself actually went to Karens.

[enjoytheride]

So jaeger, why did you start this thread up again? Did you feel like you didn't make your point enough in the original thread that was closed by the mods?

Perhaps you should take Christian's lead, be the bigger person, discuss things privately, and let it go.

[eventer_mi]

As a rider what do you expect when someone asks you to ride their horse and they pay your way? If the horse is moved on how would you feel? Would you feel robbed? Would you say damn this is the way it works?

Why does everybody assume that Wynn was footing the bill for Christan?

And yes, if I put that much effort and time AND EMOTION into a horse and somebody turned around and gave somebody else that ride, I would feel pretty badly about it. If we're assuming things, which is appears that we are, then we should probably assume that there was also a great deal of emotional attachment to Teddy as well as a huge investment in other areas.

I find it interesting that this has morphed into a thread regarding sponsorships and patronage and how a rider should or should not feel badly when a treasured horse is taken from her.

The fact is that this was a color piece featuring a rider/trainer. When we read stories about celebs, or other people, we want to hear what he/she is thinking and feeling about subjects near and dear to them, otherwise the piece would be rather dry and uninteresting and more like an excerpt from Wikipedia than a feature article.

[Jaegermonster]

So jaeger, why did you start this thread up again? Did you feel like you didn't make your point enough in the original thread that was closed by the mods?

Perhaps you should take Christian's lead, be the bigger person, discuss things privately, and let it go.

I answered that question earlier in the thread.

[eventer_mi]

So jaeger, why did you start this thread up again? Did you feel like you didn't make your point enough in the original thread that was closed by the mods?

Perhaps you should take Christian's lead, be the bigger person, discuss things privately, and let it go.

On the previous thread, there were quite a few people commenting on an article that they hadn't even read, based on the opinions of the few who had actually read it. I believe that Jaeger was mentioning that the article was available online now, and to encourage people to read it before making snap judgements on the content.

Plus, it was a nice way to give props to someone who deserves a little accolade, written by one of our very own COTHers. Why not point it out? If I had an article written about me, I would love it if someone were to point it out to my friends on COTH.

[Sebastian]

I answered that question earlier in the thread. Obviously reading for comprehension is not your strong suit.

Just FYI -- your rudeness and dedication to keeping this alive is NOT doing your friend any favors...

Seb :)

[Jaegermonster]

Just FYI -- your rudeness and dedication to keeping this alive is NOT doing your friend any favors...

Seb :)

I was editing my post for my snarkiness as you were posting, ruff day at the office.
However, I did answer her question in post 16 and here it is:

Friend or not, the beating and abuse and public embarrassment that Christan took yesterday at the hands of Wynn were inexcusable. I posted the article because there are two sides to every story and here is side two. The article speaks for itself. And I think it is very clear who is owed the apology. Christan did not say one bad thing in any way about Wynn, her program or her animals.
Since the ranting was done in public so should the apology be. Now let's see if she's big enough to do it.
That was the point of it.
__________________
"Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin
I believe about why I posted this.

and in post 23:

If you don't want to talk about it then don't open the thread and don't post on it and it will die a natural death


And I have not posted in several pages (last post at post 23, next post at post 106) until recently so I really am hardly the one "keeping this alive".

[Kementari]

1) I did some journalism a few years ago, and it was absolutely standard practice to let interviewees see the article before it went to press. Granted I wasn't interviewing anyone so exciting as Tom Cruise, but we wanted to be sure that we didn't misrepresent what someone had said, or get basic facts wrong through mis-transcription.

2) I have all the respect in the world for [good] breeders. I'll admit that I can't remember the name of my TB's breeder off the top of my head, but given that he was bred to race and failed miserably at it (despite excellent bloodlines), perhaps said breeder would be grateful. :lol: I personally know my Arab's breeder, though (Brent Glover - he has a tiny breeding operation and now mostly does rescues), and never fail to give him for the excellent horses he's bred. His program has turned out Arabs who are routinely sane, sound, and athletic, and my girl is absolutely a product of that program - and every time someone comments on how she's "not a crazy Ay-rab" I give the credit right back to Brent where it belongs. But if as a breeder you want the world to think YOU are the only one responsible for the horse's success after it leaves your control, I really don't want to do business with you. The talent may be there, but without the right training and the right riding, it's worthless - all the talent in the world is pointless if the horse spends its life doing nothing but sitting in that muddy field. Breeders are important, but the rest of us (trainers, riders, instructors, barn managers, etc...) are important, too, and as much as a talented rider needs a talented horse to get to the top, even the world's most carefully bred talented horse needs a talented rider, too.

[PhoenixFarm]

I have no dog in this fight. I don't know the various parties personally, but I've met or interacted with all of them.

I'm a breeder, owner, rider, trainer and supporter of up and coming riders like CT. I have had a homebred in the barn of a BNT. I've had a homebred with a LNT I wanted to support. I now have homebreds and home, and have a young up and comer who works with me, with them.

So it goes without saying I can see all sides here.

Of course wynn has the right to put her pony in any barn she wishes. Her name on the papers, her rules, especially without a contract.

However, for anyone to expect someone in CT's position to not be upset, hurt, sad, regretful, etc. having a horse that has been in their care and development for that period of time is totally ridiculous. Yes, it's the business. Yes, it's the way of the world. But it's still sad for the person left behind. What do you expect her to say? "Losing Teddy was the best thing that ever happened to me, thanks KOC for taking him of my hands?"

I was once in CT's position--a horse I broke and competed through the prelim level and ultimately was not able to put together the funds to buy was given to another rider who ultimately took him to Rolex. The saving grace in my story, though also the bitter pill, was that the "better rider" was also my best friend. Our relationship allowed me to stay involved with him, and I groomed for him at the rolex he ran. I was thrilled for the horse and thrilled for my friend, but I'm human enough to admit there were a few "what if . . ." or "if only . . ." days.

All of that being said, I didn't see anything in the article that I saw to be remotely critical of wynn, her program or anything. I agree that some sentence structures could have been better, but even denny's quote had a pretty clear qualifier ("in a way") in it. In a way he was snatched because he left her and went to another rider. Just as in a way she let him go because the $$ to keep him wasn't there. The not blaming qualifier seems clear to me.

As far as slights to the breeding program, that wasn't my impression either, and I do breed and am VERY aware of the tendency for riders to assume horse's greatness was created in a vacuum. That said, I'm surprised wynn wants every horse in her program to be the next Teddy. Are there enough riders with both requisite skills and requisite moolah to buy a bunch of Teddy clones? Because as much as I loved him I doubt I could have ridden one side of him. And while I would love to buy athletic, forward, talented ponies or honies for my clients, I would frankly want them a little toned down from four star temperament, even if that meant they were only one-star ponies. Most people in the world don't need top class ability--at any size.

If that is her plan, then that's great and I hope she has continued success producing those amazing critters. But I know my business model couldn't support breeding only top of the pyramid horses.

Either way, i wish all the parties involved, who are all excellent at what they do and have a lot to be proud of, the best of luck in the future.

[AlterStrength]

*barf*

Just because I can get gourmet pizza made by Wolfgang Puck doesn't mean i'm not going to eat that forgotten hot pocket waaaay in the back of my freezer.

:lol: :lol: :yes:

[AlterStrength]

How is it supposed to happen? As a breeder with a famous horse do you need to mention every single other rider of the horse's past?

THIS IS FINALLY THE TRUTH!! If this wasn't Teddy who would care about this story? I'm sure this happens all the time - we just don't hear about it because it's NOT the wonder pony.

For anyone who has EVER talked to any type of press/media etc. they always get quotes wrong.. it's subjective in a manner of speaking. You are telling the story to someone who tells it to someone else based on HOW they remember it. So i cant take USEA magazine to literal.. it's a big game of telephone.

Lets try this...You have a show dog - and your little cousin is showing him. He starts winning and winning big!! But your cousin can't buy him, so you put him up for sale while your cousin is still showing him. And then PETCO (idk.. lol) comes in and give you a BIG TIME Handler for the dog. Your cousin is devestated.. but busniess is busniess and you have to make a living.

Bottom line - let sleeping dogs lie - or is it lay? idk anymore..

RIP Teddy.

[Paragon]

As someone who is apparently not cool enough to get all the insidious, underhanded bashing allegedly taking place between the lines, I thought it was a nice article. Thanks for sharing. :)

[blackwly]

Actually, I felt a bit disappointed in KOC because it seemed to me that she could have used her considerable influence in the sport to help get sponsorship for CT and Teddy instead of accepting the ride for herself. She has experienced so many opportunities and has had so much success in eventing, and this was a chance to give back to the sport by offering a hand to a younger rider still struggling to make it.

Laughing hysterically.

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

Saying that this one is the only one like Teddy, is also hurtful to the breeder.


READ! Then read again! CT didn't SAY that! She said Coda was THE MOST like Teddy, not that the others were UNLIKE Teddy. READ! Before you get a bee in your bonnet over something that wasn't actually said.

[JER]

.... the seemingly popular opinion that we're all a bunch of slimey, morally corrupt ambulance-chasers driven by ego, dollars and the thrill of "spinning" a story to make it as inaccurate as possible.


You've just described Fox News!

[TB or not TB?]

You've just described Fox News!

Well played. :lol:

[Dawnd]

Very well said, Phoenix.

I'm hope not to add fuel to the fire but just have to say:

People are people.

Some people's feelings are hurt when they lose a great ride.
Some people read hateful comments in articles that aren't there, perhaps for reasons we don't know.
Some people will never think of thanking the people before them (unless someone's watching).
Some people see things in such black and white that change means "snatch".

I'm like Earl. I believe in Karma. Perhaps all the parties involved should look into the purity of their heart to determine what caused the story to pan out the way that it did.

[LexInVA]

Whilst that can never be completely ruled out it can, however, be minimalized.

Way to minimize Snoops! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jphpzjar2y4)

[TBCollector]

Way to minimize Snoops! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jphpzjar2y4)

Hmmm...must be raining where you are, too. :lol:

[snoopy]

Way to minimize Snoops! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jphpzjar2y4)


You know Lex, I had my doubts about you in the beginning, but I have to see you are alright in my book!!!:lol:

Good one!


And yes it to is raining where I am.

[Pferd51]

Or else I'd be doing something else.
At this point, I'm most interested in the idea that breeding has no uncertainty in it, and that some breeders apparently can prove this. The support seems to come in the form of:
Observer: "This horse doesn't jump so well"
Breeder: "I put more dressage in him. I meant to do that"

Observer: "This horse isn't fast enough"
Breeder: "I put more scope in this one. I meant to do that"

Observer: "This horse is a 4* horse"
Breeder: "I put just the right amount of everything in this one. I meant to do that"

QED

It's fortunate that this is the case, because if it were not so nobody would ever buy another horse from anyone who calls themself a breeder.

[annikak]

He was an amazing animal. Pony or Horse- amazing. He brought Eventing together in a way that no other equine has for years.

Pwynn had done a great job with her breeding program and has also "done time" on the BOG and assisting the sport.

CT is a very nice person on all accounts I have heard-

KOC is one of the mainstays of the sport- and probably has more then enough horses to ride at any given moment.

Denny has done great things for us on the COTH and also his riders and has been outspoken before (which is a good thing)



In other words, everyone spoken about here is a GOOD person- we all may have quibbles with one or another of them, but the end result is this- every one of them is good for the sport.


Safe to say that every party, inc. those here on the COTH ;) loved that pony greatly and mightly, and his loss is a huge one to all of us. I dare to say that the loss is biggest to Pwynn for many reasons.

Everyone of these people has gone thru a lot of grieving over what happened- both a few years and a few months ago.

We on the BB have wanted more of the stories of "the rest of us" CT's story is heading in that direction..a nice human/equine story.

So, now, we bash them for attempting to accomplish that? Sure some things might not have been spot-on, but we, once again, are trying to have both sides of the coin face up. Let's give it a rest.

The most important thing is this- EVERYONE loved Teddy (Or Conner). That's nice, isn't it??

[shea'smom]

Yes, nice end to this issue.