Barefoot folks - Horse wears hoof faster than grows it, what to do? [Archive]

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:06 AM

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:39 AM

I'm curious as to what a person who doesn't use shoes would do. Say you have a horse that is wearing faster than it grows, and not just because of the workload, but its wearing them down just romping in the rocky/hard pasture. What do you do?

Bring in truck loads of top soil :D

Use boots? But most boots aren't designed to be worn 24/7, or turned out for extended periods of time in them, from what I understand. So if the horse is wearing the feet down just romping in the pasture it lives in, what would the trimmer do? :confused:

Just curious what the non-shoe folks use or do when the typical "time to add shoes!" situation pops up. Say the horse isn't lame yet, but may become lame if it keeps wearing them down. What would a trimmer do to minimize wear on the hoof? :)

With my mare, when this happens, I just put shoes on because I use a farrier. But if I had a trimmer, I'm not sure what the course of action would be. That's why I ask! :lol:

Can't say I'm having that problem in spite of the romping on hard ground. However, I've had to use boots on one of my horses for an extended period of time without it causing a problem - it just takes a little more time on the part of the owner.

grayarabpony

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:45 AM

How reliable are glue-on shoes now?

decorum

Feb. 26, 2009, 01:27 AM

I've never found a horse that wears faster than it grows yet but I have to say most of my clients aren't exactly going 100 miles a week bare. It is so wet here that most people use hoof protection when they ride since all roads are covered with gravel and soggy feet don't get as tough as dry feet. Seriously, feet are so wet here that if you push on a frog water squishes out.

Grayarabpony, Easycare is coming out with a cuff that you can glue onto the outer hoofwall and then attach a shell with screws so you can remove your glue-on as needed. That is such a cool idea for areas like this where mud gets in there and the foot needs a chance to breath.

Ann Szolas

Hoofprince in Mud

Feb. 26, 2009, 01:40 AM

My horse had the "wears faster than grows" problem.

We went back to shoes. Riding less was the other option.

George Myers

Feb. 26, 2009, 05:57 AM

(I'm just honestly curious about this, so PLEASE don't make this into a fight. I will promptly report anyone who comes in with guns blazing. :lol: )

At the barn today, the trimmer was there to work on a few horses, and it got me thinking. A lot of people shoe their horses because if the horse is working hard or just not growing very quickly, it will wear the feet down faster than they grow. So shoes are applied to protect the hoof from wearing down too fast, to keep the horse sound and comfortable and in work.

I'm curious as to what a person who doesn't use shoes would do. Say you have a horse that is wearing faster than it grows, and not just because of the workload, but its wearing them down just romping in the rocky/hard pasture. What do you do? Use boots? But most boots aren't designed to be worn 24/7, or turned out for extended periods of time in them, from what I understand. So if the horse is wearing the feet down just romping in the pasture it lives in, what would the trimmer do? :confused:

Just curious what the non-shoe folks use or do when the typical "time to add shoes!" situation pops up. Say the horse isn't lame yet, but may become lame if it keeps wearing them down. What would a trimmer do to minimize wear on the hoof? :)

With my mare, when this happens, I just put shoes on because I use a farrier. But if I had a trimmer, I'm not sure what the course of action would be. That's why I ask! :lol:

How do you suppose horses living free cope - or barefoot endurance horses? Healthy hooves should cope with romping around - even on very hard or stony ground.

If the horse has poorly conditioned and/or badly trimmed hooves and is ridden over long distances on abrasive terrain - then you might well get a situation in which there is excessive wear.

Avoiding that is just about utilising the thing that's supposed to set us apart from other animals - our intelligence. If you keep a horse barefoot you have to think a bit harder about how you manage and use it. Having ridden both well shod and healthy barefoot horses - for me there is no comparison. I am happy to put in the extra work involved in conditioning the feet, forgo the long trails on broken rock which my horse's feet may be too soft for at the end of a wet winter etc for what I consider to be better for the horse - and me ultimately.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 06:02 AM

[quote=sublimequine;3909496Just curious what the non-shoe folks use or do when the typical "time to add shoes!" situation pops up. Say the horse isn't lame yet, but may become lame if it keeps wearing them down. What would a trimmer do to minimize wear on the hoof? :)
[/quote]
The horse owner is in contol of and responsible for husbandry and use. Why would a trimmer need to do anything at all? One can advise a horse owner about use and husbandry. But, one cannot supervise, enforce or dictate.

If horse owner decides that the "barefoot ethic" is so important that they must adhere to it at all cost, then the horse owner can invest in landscaping and give up an apropriate amount of saddle time in order to be in compliance with said ethic.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 26, 2009, 06:22 AM

How reliable are glue-on shoes now?
Not very. Any of you ladies ever see the condition of your own nails after wearing glue ons for a while? Additionally with glue it's easy to trap any kind of anaerobic bacteria which thrives under those conditions and wreaks havoc on hooves.
Glue ons are a useful tool under limited circumstances, but just like booties are not and never were meant to be used instead of conventional shoeing.

If horse owner decides that the "barefoot ethic" is so important that they must adhere to it at all cost, then the horse owner can invest in landscaping and give up an apropriate amount of saddle time in order to be in compliance with said ethic.
True enough Tom.

Seems much easier just to get the horse shod:winkgrin:
George

JHUshoer20

Feb. 26, 2009, 06:25 AM

How do you suppose horses living free cope - Become lion bait and die. or barefoot endurance horses? Lose the race and limp home.
George

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:41 AM

How reliable are glue-on shoes now?

They could be as reliable as steel shoes. Just don't have them applied by farriers who are hell bend on proving they don't work.

2enduraceriders

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:41 AM

Become lion bait and die. Lose the race and limp home.
George

lol :lol:

Yes, or travel 450 miles from outside Chicago to go on a riding vacation with their horse and ride only one day before the horse is too sore to go on. Then either shoe or don't ride. Of course it is the trail's fault.

Most horses are pets and can go barefoot easily. Very few hardworking horses can. If you think your barefoot horse is fit and sound please come ride with me and my 12 year old daughter for a 4 hour ride.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:49 AM

Become lion bait and die. Lose the race and limp home.
George

Please, get a grip!

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:52 AM

I would want to determine, as best I could, WHY it appeared that the feet were not growing enough to keep up with wear.

It may be diet.

It may be that the feet are just desperately trying to get down to a good, healthy length. I think many people have become so accustomed to a longer foot that they freak out at how short a good, healthy bare foot can look :eek:

It may be that he's traipsing over SO many abrasive miles a day that he really cannot keep up in new growth.

I'd find it *really* hard to believe that a horse who is living out, not being forced to exercise, really and truly has wear exceeding growth, even living on abrasive terrain. I mean, who left on this planet has a horse out in a "wild", abrasive environment that forces the horse to walk 15+ miles a day between food and water sources?

Just like there is a difference in people between those who have fingernails as hard as, well, nails, and those who always have thinner, more brittle nails, you will find the same in horses. So yes, if a horse is in Endurance training at 100 miles a week or more might very well not have the hoof density and hardness to have growth keep up.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 08:00 AM

Just curious what the non-shoe folks use or do when the typical "time to add shoes!" situation pops up. Say the horse isn't lame yet, but may become lame if it keeps wearing them down. What would a trimmer do to minimize wear on the hoof? :)

A trimmer would make suggestions to the owner on how to minimize wear.
One suggestion could be to put boots on during the day, or night (whenever the horse is doing the most of the "romping"). Or, if the horse is being ridden a lot, put boots on when riding. Of course, this does require more involvement on the part of the owner; it takes a little more time than just calling your farrier to slap some shoes on.

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 08:01 AM

Cashela

Feb. 26, 2009, 08:06 AM

I have this problem when I am riding my horse on trails during riding season. She wears her hind feet out so they get really short and then she gets ouchy. It doesn't happen from regular sitting in the corral use though.

I put shoes on all around because I know that she is more comfortable with them. I listen to what she tells me. She does get them pulled for the winter. Last year we only had shoes on from May to October.

Daydream Believer

Feb. 26, 2009, 08:53 AM

I've never seen this problem either. None of the horses I trim wear out their feet too much. I'm trimming about 100 head now. Generally the hoof, if trimmed and loading correctly, will grow more than enough. In the summertime I trim most of my clients horses on a 4 to 5 week rotation because they grow too much hoof if you go longer than that.

A couple of my clients own boots and use them for longer trail rides also but most do not use boots at all.

"Time to add shoes" situations in my cleintele I've seen were trainers who wanted to enhance gaits by growing a 4 inch toe and adding weighted shoes. I do a lot of Arabs and I will have nothing to do with that sort of work. I also trim WB show hunters, TB's, dressage horses of a number of breeds, pleasure horses, school horses,...who all work for a living... and all ages of breeding stock and broodmares. So far, none of those wear their feet excessively between trims.

If I ever run into such a horse, I'd suggest boot use for riding, glue ons, casts, or if none of those choices work, I'd recommend they try metal shoes and help them find a farrier who will nail them on.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:00 AM

A trimmer would make suggestions to the owner on how to minimize wear.
One suggestion could be to put boots on during the day, or night (whenever the horse is doing the most of the "romping"). Or, if the horse is being ridden a lot, put boots on when riding. Of course, this does require more involvement on the part of the owner; it takes a little more time than just calling your farrier to slap some shoes on.
Indeed a trimmer can suggest that the OWNER do all sorts of things with their time. A little time here and a little time there. In the time between visits from the trimmer, a horse owner could accumulate many hours of time spent serving the needs of the bare hoof. Beggs the question of the owner, how much enjoyment do you get from spending this time? If you enjoy doing it, then it is worth the time.

If you would rather be doing something else, then you have to consider the value of your time vs. the value of the convenience provided by shoes. You pay either way. :cool:

Auventera Two

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:11 AM

If horse owner decides that the "barefoot ethic" is so important that they must adhere to it at all cost, then the horse owner can invest in landscaping and give up an apropriate amount of saddle time in order to be in compliance with said ethic.

Wrong. You can purchase and utilize HOOF BOOTS. Last year I rode my horse so much, and she's turned out and moving so much that I trimmed her feet a grand total of TWO TIMES. Twice. Yeah, that was it. Twice. I've posted lots of photos of her feet and gotten lots of compliments, even from you Tom. So it's not like they're some hideous overgrown ski feet riddled with neglect. Her feet are so balanced and healthy that they just wear correctly. Twice I touched up the balance and the frogs, and that was it.

I ride her in hoof boots at least 1/3 of the rides I do. If I didn't, then she would have worn faster than she could grow.

I know you agree with certain aspects of KC's teachings. The backbone of all his teachings is that correct stimulus yield correct growth. Using the hoof boots WITH PADS provides an even stimulus to the internal structures of the hoof, which will encourage more growth. You load the entire sole, frog, and hoof wall when you use thick pads. That loading - without the wear of abrasive terrain - encourages the foot to send out more growth. I've seen this at work so many times with horses I trim. If they are thin soled and sore, I tell the owner to buy the boots and pads and they won't be sorry. If they are, I'll take the boots back and give them all their money back. I haven't had anybody take up the offer yet.

One gelding was so thin soled and foot sore he was hobbling when the owner had me start trimming. The first thing we did was put him in Epics with 12mm pads and I told the owner to start riding him on flat smooth ground, at least 20-30 minutes a day. She rode on the edge of a gravel road, almost daily for 6 weeks. The next time I went out to trim, the sole was visibly thicker at the apex, the horse was sound to walk across the gravel without the boos, and I could no longer flex the sole with my thumbs. Supposedly the farrier who had been doing the horse never touched the horse's soles with the knife (and it didn't look like it either) and the horse had been bare for years. He was said to just be chronically thin soled and any serious riding would require shoes. This lady had just purchased the horse, and prior to that he was basically retired out in a field. He has so many other redeeming qualities that she took a chance, thinking if the barefoot thing with me didn't work, she could just get a farrier to shoe him. I've been trimming the horse for over a year and he's doing awesome. He does multiple day trail rides, and all the normal day-to-day riding requires no boots anymore.

The diet and environment was basically the same, regardless of moving to a new barn - out in a field 24/7 with other horses, and grass hay, the daily cup of grain with a mineral supplement. It's not like the horse went from stalled life to out in a field, or went from 12 pounds of sweet feed a day down to a cup. The husbandry was roughly unchanged, but adding the work in the pads was the one major difference in the horse's daily routine.

That's only one horse - there are so many others, including all 3 of my own. Boots and pads DOES work to grow more hoof. Stimulus IS the vehicle for growth. People assume the boots/pads are only to "protect the foot." They're not only for protection - they are also for the cultivation of new hoof material.

LMH

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:19 AM

I think it is often a sign of imbalance.

Unpopular reason but a good one.

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:24 AM

Good post A2. Tom, I enjoy the extra time I spend with my horses while I am taking care of their feet. Their manners have improved with out direct trianing, they come much better with out working on it. They know who the leader is with out me being overly assertive.The benifits have been repaid much more than the time and energy I have put into their care.

Guilherme

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:29 AM

(I'm just honestly curious about this, so PLEASE don't make this into a fight. I will promptly report anyone who comes in with guns blazing. :lol: )

At the barn today, the trimmer was there to work on a few horses, and it got me thinking. A lot of people shoe their horses because if the horse is working hard or just not growing very quickly, it will wear the feet down faster than they grow. So shoes are applied to protect the hoof from wearing down too fast, to keep the horse sound and comfortable and in work.

I'm curious as to what a person who doesn't use shoes would do. Say you have a horse that is wearing faster than it grows, and not just because of the workload, but its wearing them down just romping in the rocky/hard pasture. What do you do? Use boots? But most boots aren't designed to be worn 24/7, or turned out for extended periods of time in them, from what I understand. So if the horse is wearing the feet down just romping in the pasture it lives in, what would the trimmer do? :confused:

Just curious what the non-shoe folks use or do when the typical "time to add shoes!" situation pops up. Say the horse isn't lame yet, but may become lame if it keeps wearing them down. What would a trimmer do to minimize wear on the hoof? :)

With my mare, when this happens, I just put shoes on because I use a farrier. But if I had a trimmer, I'm not sure what the course of action would be. That's why I ask! :lol:

If wear exceeds growth then you can:

A. Increase growth.

There are many suppliments on the market. Some work better than others.

B. Reduce wear.

1. Review husbandry practices with an eye toward increasing hoof durability.

2 Ride less.

3. Protect the foot with a device.

a. Shoe

b. Boot

c. Other.

Pick what works for you and the horse.

G.

webmistress32

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:37 AM

Most horses are pets and can go barefoot easily. Very few hardworking horses can. If you think your barefoot horse is fit and sound please come ride with me and my 12 year old daughter for a 4 hour ride.

please by all means feel free to check the arrogant attitude and false statements at the door.

I ride endurance, ride on rocks, event, jump, do dressage, Xcountry, you name it. all seasons - all terrain.

my horses are all barefoot and we have no problem with hooves wearing faster than they can be grown.

when I want to grow longer/stronger fingernails I drum my fingertips on the desk. when I want my horse to grow more hoof, I stimulate it with work.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:10 AM

I know you agree with certain aspects of KC's teachings.WRONG! I agree with all of his teachings. :lol:

The backbone of all his teachings is that correct stimulus yield correct growth. Using the hoof boots WITH PADS provides an even stimulus to the internal structures of the hoof, which will encourage more growth. You load the entire sole, frog, and hoof wall when you use thick pads. That loading - without the wear of abrasive terrain - encourages the foot to send out more growth.
No disagreement from me here. If you want to provide the stimulus or the environment to bump up the Scale of Usability, knock yourself out.

I've seen this at work so many times with horses I trim. If they are thin soled and sore, I tell the ownerIndeed you can tell the owner, but you cannot enforce or supervise. The only recourse you have when they do not follow what you tell them is . . . what?

to buy the boots and pads and they won't be sorry. If they are, I'll take the boots back and give them all their money back. I haven't had anybody take up the offer yet.Had anybody not willing to mess with the boots, pads, etc? If they don't like your alternative aproach then you move on. Right?

(deleted story of owner happily following instructions and getting good results. ;))

That's only one horse - there are so many others, including all 3 of my own. Boots and pads DOES work to grow more hoof. Stimulus IS the vehicle for growth. People assume the boots/pads are only to "protect the foot." They're not only for protection - they are also for the cultivation of new hoof material.I agree with you completely. But some people couldn't be bothered to take the time to supply the stimulus.

Fortunately, some of us barefoot advocates offer forgiveness for these lazy folks by supplying a barefoot alternative with attached protection and support. ;)

Ajierene

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:14 AM

How do wild horses do it? Horses with less than stellar hooves disappear through natural selection (can't run as fast - lion, cougar, coyote food).

How do endurance horses do it? Well, most endurance horses are from sturdy breeds that have been breed to, among other things, have good feet.

Other than that, shoeing, boots, etc. is up to the owner. Personally, I shoe. My mare is flat footed and gets footsore in the summer when the ground is harder. She isn't bad, but definitely moves out better with front shoes. Her back feet are fine and she is barefoot behind. I do not use boots because of the nature of our competition - boots are against the rules.

My step-mom put glue on shoes on my step-sister's pony when he was alive and working. She took him to New Bolton, put him completely out and put glue on shoes. This was the best way she could think of to put the glue on shoes and have them stay. He was a really good pony and great for the farrier, but the foot needs to be immobile for a long time (10 minutes or more...don't quite remember the exact time) and even the best of horses cannot muster this.

I believe she let him go barefoot in the winter for a few weeks, but he had no hoof wall and couldn't seem to grow one and he was even sore out in the unrocky fields without something on his feet. She tried boots, but they were hard to use, in her experience.

Shoeing or not is a personal preference. I have been told that my mare can go barefoot with the 'proper' barefoot trim, but in order to get there, she will be sore for a while. My mare and I compete and it may sound crass, but right now I do not have time for her to be off work. Maybe I will try something next winter.

greysandbays

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:24 AM

please by all means feel free to check the arrogant attitude and false statements at the door.

Need the way cleared for your own, eh?

What both of you said was just as stupid as somebody from south Florida saying "I never wear a winter coat, so you (even though you're in North Dakota) don't ever need one either"-- or somebody from North Dakota saying "I wear a winter coat at least six months a year, so you (even though you're in south Florida) should do so as well".

There's too much variation in hoof quality and terrain for blanket statements on either end to be anything but hogwash.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:24 AM

when I want to grow longer/stronger fingernails I drum my fingertips on the desk. when I want my horse to grow more hoof, I stimulate it with work.
LOL! Did you get that idea from the Passo Fino horses drumming their feet on a wood platform. The breed is known for having tough feet. Maybe the stimulus thing got turned into a "show event" to make the task of "hoof stimulation" more interesting. :winkgrin:

BornToRide

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:25 AM

If this happens I would look for possible underlying causes like diet, EMS, lack of nutrients.

Many people are also not used to what a healthy, balanced bare hoof looks like. They may think it is too short when in fact it is not.

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:30 AM

BornToRide

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:36 AM

To add - I have also not yet come across a hoof that wore faster than it grew. I had one case though were the hoof would not grow much at all. This mare however was eating low levels of bracken fern and was also chronically laminitic!

webmistress32

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:45 AM

there is a difference between sharing experiences and making wide sweeping statements inferred to be fact.

issuing a challenge akin to "I ride a lot harder than all you backyard riders who keep your horses as pets" puts the icing on the cake.

Most horses are pets and can go barefoot easily.
Is that a fact?

Very few hardworking horses can.
Another fact? Really now?

If you think your barefoot horse is fit and sound please come ride with me and my 12 year old daughter for a 4 hour ride.
"I rider harder than you, my horse is fitter and sounder than yours, I'm better than you, therefore you must take my facts at face value and accept your inferior position."

these types of statements are made for closing off conversation, not stimulating it.

the experiences I have shared: 1. I do ride hard (i.e. my horses are not backyard pets) 2. I don't have a problem with hooves wearing and 3. I compared stimulating fingernail growth to stimulating hoof growth.

did I say any horse can go barefoot? did I say that no horse needs shoes? no. I shared my personal experience with no inferred statements of fact.

greysandbays

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:46 AM

Many people are also not used to what a healthy, balanced bare hoof looks like. They may think it is too short when in fact it is not.

It doesn't matter how good a foot looks if the horse is ouchy on the ground on which it is obliged to work. Then either the foot has to be changed or the terrain has to be changed.

Owner's goals + terrain + horse's hooves sometimes cannot = barefoot + comfortable + desired performance standard. When that happens, compromise has to be made somewhere.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:50 AM

Thanks for all the input folks, and being relatively civil. Keep the info comin! :)

Oh, and to clarify, this really isn't a thread about my mare per se. I was pretty much just using her as an example. Like I said, when wear exceeds growth with her, we put shoes on. But I was still curious what the non-shoe folks do. :yes:You might find it educational to review the DAEP program that A2 completed in preparation for her adventures in shoeless hoofcare.

KC LaPierre has done a great job creating a primary/continuing education program for, as he says, "Shoeless not Culeless."

I have never seen substandard work by any of his graduates. Emphasis on graduate - there are some who "claim to follow" him and attept sell hoofcare service to the public based on the "claim." There is a difference between "claiming to follow" and having a diploma as proof of "ability to apply."

BornToRide

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:53 AM

It doesn't matter how good a foot looks if the horse is ouchy on the ground on which it is obliged to work. Then either the foot has to be changed or the terrain has to be changed.

Please note that I was talking about HEALTHY bare hooves, which to me means they have no trouble with varying terrains.

Secondly you need to determine WHY the horse may be ouchy on some terrain and eliminate the underlying cause instead of just throwing shoes or boots on.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:07 AM

Please note that I was talking about HEALTHY bare hooves, which to me means they have no trouble with varying terrains.

Secondly you need to determine WHY the horse may be ouchy on some terrain and eliminate the underlying cause instead of just throwing shoes or boots on.
Sounds like a strong advocate for making humans subservient to the needs of the bare hoof. Have you considered marching on Washington for a "barefoot rights" protest? :cool:

BornToRide

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:18 AM

Sounds like a strong advocate for making humans subservient to the needs of the bare hoof. Have you considered marching on Washington for a "barefoot rights" protest? :cool:
To no surprise I see that you are a user. Horses (and probably some people) always subservient to other humans.

This is about what is in the BEST interest of the horse, not what is most convenient for humans.

greysandbays

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:20 AM

Please note that I was talking about HEALTHY bare hooves, which to me means they have no trouble with varying terrains.

Secondly you need to determine WHY the horse may be ouchy on some terrain and eliminate the underlying cause instead of just throwing shoes or boots on.

Even the healthiest of bare hooves is not a titanium colossus able to withstand all forces. Mother nature made some mighty hoof-unfriendly places, and anybody wishing to ride there on a serious basis needs more than a barefoot religion to do so.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:25 AM

Indeed a trimmer can suggest that the OWNER do all sorts of things with their time. A little time here and a little time there. In the time between visits from the trimmer, a horse owner could accumulate many hours of time spent serving the needs of the bare hoof. Beggs the question of the owner, how much enjoyment do you get from spending this time? If you enjoy doing it, then it is worth the time.

If you would rather be doing something else, then you have to consider the value of your time vs. the value of the convenience provided by shoes. You pay either way. :cool:

Really Tom, how much time do you think it takes to put on a pair of boots? Of course, if you board your horse and visit it twice a week, the usage of boots for this particular purpose wouldn't do much good, unless you have a very willing BO.

Other than that, if one doesn't enjoy giving the horse the care it needs at any given time, perhaps that person should seek another hobby? Shod or barefoot, they all have their specific set of needs.

greysandbays

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:30 AM

To no surprise I see that you are a user. Horses (and probably some people) always subservient to other humans.

This is about what is in the BEST interest of the horse, not what is most convenient for humans.

So we are supposed to worship the hoof -- build altars and make sacrifices to the hoof -- burn incense for the hoof -- build an Ark of the Covenant for the hoof??????

Nonsense. For those not advocating a horse-as-deity philosophy, it is about utilizing the horse for useful purpose and making him as comfortable as possible while doing so.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:33 AM

Any of you ladies ever see the condition of your own nails after wearing glue ons for a while? Additionally with glue it's easy to trap any kind of anaerobic bacteria which thrives under those conditions and wreaks havoc on hooves.
Glue ons are a useful tool under limited circumstances, but just like booties are not and never were meant to be used instead of conventional shoeing.
George

Well now, I've never tried those, but I'm willing to experiment. Just for good measures, could you have a set of say lightweight aluminum nails made to be nailed onto your fingernails? We can put them on the same day and check the quality of our natural nails after a set period.

Auventera Two

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:38 AM

Thanks Tom for the insight. KC's program focuses on bare feet suitable for PERFORMANCE. Dubbing the toe off in a mustang roll and applying some special potions isn't enough. It's all about rehabilitation to develop healthy, strong bare feet. I learned a LOT about trimming the hoof for bare performance. A good trim is a good trim but his program teaches beyond the trim. The trim is only one tool. Eliminating infection (even very low level) then applying correct stimulus is everything.

There ARE a lot of horses that cannot go barefoot and be hard working horses. I have no doubt about that. But some of those horses "might" be, if their owners got up half an hour earlier every morning and worked the horse in pads before heading off on the hour long commute to her job. :cool: You do the work - you reap the benefits. But I know it's not easy to do it. It's hard for me too. It requires discipline to get out there and do the work.

I walk my horse in pads so I have that correct stimulus for more growth. Most nights I go to the barn and slip on her boots with the pads inside, lead her to the house, collect the dogs, and go off for a 45 minute walk. I walk the horse like she were one of the dogs. It requires extra work to go to the barn and put her boots on, but it pays off when I watch her soles double in thickness (I use radiographs for confirmation, not just eyeballs). I'd love to post them but they're on films at the vet clinic. My clinic doesn't even allow you to take the films home because they only produce one copy and it has to stay in the horse's file at the office. So you'll just have to believe me.

The biggest problem with hoof boots is that people use them for the wrong reason. People think of boots as a crutch. They're not a crutch if you put the correct pads in them and then work the hooves with the pads. You can condition the feet like you condition the horse's wind or tendons. People just don't get that though. They think of the hoof as a big chunk of toenail that's just dead and "there". It is what it is. Ohhhh but it isn't so.... Boots aren't a band aid unless you're using them for the wrong reason. Pete Ramey preaches boots for building better feet, and KC preaches pad walking for better feet. I combined the two to make it easier on me than duct taping pads to feet every day.

My endurance horse works hard. To whomever said "come ride with me and my daughter for 4 hours." I would take you up on that challenge. Hours doesn't mean much, but mileage does. See if you can catch my tail on a 16 mile training gallop, winding through the woods. I dare ya. :cool: There are few people to train with because not many can keep up. She has an athletic gift and excellent feet to match.

Not everyone can dedicate themselves to the barefoot lifestyle, and that is absolutely fine. I harbor no ill will toward those that can't or just don't want to. But please recognize that it's not always the HORSE that can't grow the good feet. It's the lack of work under the right stimulus. Nobody's "fault" but that's just the way it is.

Daatje

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:46 AM

I have been in this situation with my mare. Her bare hooves are fine on arena work/turnout/field work, but for road work/foxhunting she does wear the hooves down quite quickly.

I've never let them get to the point of wearing too short, but given the wear I've seen on just one foxhunt barefoot, I shudder to think what would happen if I rode her bare under those conditions on a regular basis.

I was faced with the choice of shoe or boot.

I tried both and was happier with the boots.

.....so, to answer your question, when the going gets abrasive, my barefoot horse wears boots! :D

tkhawk

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:47 AM

To no surprise I see that you are a user. Horses (and probably some people) always subservient to other humans.

This is about what is in the BEST interest of the horse, not what is most convenient for humans.

User? I live close to the beach. Lovely weather down here. There is nothing I would much rather do than surf, ride the horsies, then travel a couple of days or weeks and come back. But somebody's got to pay the bills.
If I don't get a free pass-why should my horse get one? My horses get a nice place, good feed, hoof care, teeth care , vet care etc.. A little work and adjusting is a much better bargain than what many humans endure throughout the globe.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:55 AM

Really Tom, how much time do you think it takes to put on a pair of boots? Of course, if you board your horse and visit it twice a week, the usage of boots for this particular purpose wouldn't do much good, unless you have a very willing BO.

Other than that, if one doesn't enjoy giving the horse the care it needs at any given time, perhaps that person should seek another hobby? Shod or barefoot, they all have their specific set of needs.You ask me questions and then answer them for me. Now that is convenient. :yes:

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:13 PM

Not everyone can dedicate themselves to the barefoot lifestyle, and that is absolutely fine. I harbor no ill will toward those that can't or just don't want to.
You know the difference between sailboat people and power boat people? Power boat people think sailing not recreation, but work. Sail boat people think power boat people are lazy. As a former boat builder of both power and sail boats, I never did figure out who was having the most fun. :cool:

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:24 PM

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" I like nice looking and performing feet. I am a hands on person and love picking up my horses feet and figuring out what is happening. That is me. I uinderstand others would rather do something else with their time. That is okay. As long as a horse is getting good care it isn't anyone else's concern except the owner. Having a passion for something is okay as long as you understand it might not be someone else's passion. That is where the problem on this board begins. I respect everyone's right to an opinion. I might not agree with it and that is okay too. Blanket statements and using one personal experience or even anothers to put down a practice is wrong.

Auventera Two

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:30 PM

rmh - you summed that up far better than I've ever heard before. Great job. :)

Bare, working hooves are my passion, but its ok if it isn't someone else's passion also.

Guilherme

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:32 PM

Anybody going?

http://www.afaconvention.com/

Note that the Horseman's Day is Saturday.

G.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 12:33 PM

My endurance horse works hard. To whomever said "come ride with me and my daughter for 4 hours." I would take you up on that challenge. Hours doesn't mean much, but mileage does. See if you can catch my tail on a 16 mile training gallop, winding through the woods. I dare ya. :cool: There are few people to train with because not many can keep up. She has an athletic gift and excellent feet to match.I wanna see you race an Amish buggy pulled by a "pacer" down a paved road 16 miles to Wal-Mart and back. :yes:

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 01:25 PM

I wanna see you race an Amish buggy pulled by a "pacer" down a paved road 16 miles to Wal-Mart and back. :yes:

I have seen those buggies in PA. They go full blast. The ones I saw were shod on asphalt. Not hijacking the thread or straiting a controversy(hiding head) but going full bore with shoes on asphalt does it cause long term problems?

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 01:42 PM

Thanks Tom for the insight. KC's program focuses on bare feet suitable for PERFORMANCE. Dubbing the toe off in a mustang roll and applying some special potions isn't enough.

HUH? Who are you slamming with that statement? I have 3 THREE, incase you miss it THREE graduates of KC's program in my area and 2 - TWO in the NJ area.

I see long toes, thin soles, horses being forced to walk on gravel (NOT PEA GRAVEL) to "toughen" up the feet.

I also hear from owners and thru the grapevine of sore horses. Not all of them but a higher number than should be.

It's all about rehabilitation to develop healthy, strong bare feet. I learned a LOT about trimming the hoof for bare performance. A good trim is a good trim but his program teaches beyond the trim.

Okay you aren't going to like me saying this, but if that is so true, why did you have Nancy Filbert, a Strasserite come and "fix" your horse and get her "sound", where you hadn't?

Or are we comparing apples to oranges cuz Libby isn't a "performance" horse.

snip It requires extra work to go to the barn and put her boots on, but it pays off when I watch her soles double in thickness (I use radiographs for confirmation, not just eyeballs). I'd love to post them but they're on films at the vet clinic. My clinic doesn't even allow you to take the films home because they only produce one copy and it has to stay in the horse's file at the office. So you'll just have to believe me.

Again.. HUH??? which horse has doubled her soles (Libby?) and why can't you take your digital camera to the vet clinic, put the rads up on the lightbox and take pix? I've never had a vet tell me I can't see my clients xrays. Sometimes I have to pick them up, or the client does. I always have to give them back, but how can I work on pathological cases without seeing the Rad's?

Now don't go and get your panties in a wad, this is a conversation and I'm not attacking you, just asking questions.

Boots are useful and help a lot of horses be "used - lightly or hard" and then back out in the field bare.

Using boots does not always build sole, nor does using boots/pads correctly always build sole.

I agree boots are a great tool in the toolbox and the farriers shouldn't be so quick to discount them. But we can't force them to use them, only share our experiences

LMH

Feb. 26, 2009, 02:25 PM

I actually have no problem dubbing a toe. :lol:

Works like a charm in Georgia!

webmistress32

Feb. 26, 2009, 02:27 PM

don't go and get your panties in a wad

if this is how you ask questions I'm glad you're not asking me any ...

rude, uncalled for attacks were stated clearly as "unwelcome" at the beginning of this thread.

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 02:37 PM

if this is how you ask questions I'm glad you're not asking me any ...

rude, uncalled for attacks were stated clearly as "unwelcome" at the beginning of this thread.

Thank you. My finger is hovering over the report button, folks. If all you wanna do is throw poo at each other, make a new thread on it. :lol:

I appreciate all the added input though that's on-topic! I know some folks are saying diet changes, but say you need to offer the horse protection NOW from wearing down too much. Since diet changes will take a long time, what would your immediate response be, to keep the horse comfortable and sound? That's basically what my original question was. :yes:

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 02:38 PM

KC advocates a round rock. Maybe not quite as small but smooth. I personally use a small, pea gravel size due to a mix up with the truck driver, and it works great. I have never had soreness on this type of gravel. If you want to point fingers there are trimmers in my area who follow your type of trimming and have sored horses. You can find cases that didn't do as you would like in any discipline so quit being holier than thou. Kim you seem to like jumping people lately take a chill pill this isn't life and death.

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 02:41 PM

Thank you. My finger is hovering over the report button, folks. If all you wanna do is throw poo at each other, make a new thread on it. :lol:

I appreciate all the added input though that's on-topic! I know some folks are saying diet changes, but say you need to offer the horse protection NOW from wearing down too much. Since diet changes will take a long time, what would your immediate response be, to keep the horse comfortable and sound? That's basically what my original question was. :yes:

If by diet changes you mean supplements then I don't think that will be a big help. If you mean good nutrition then that would help but over time. A healthier body will grow better. For the short term boots and pads or casts. You need stimualtion to encourage growth.

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 02:48 PM

If by diet changes you mean supplements then I don't think that will be a big help. If you mean good nutrition then that would help but over time. A healthier body will grow better. For the short term boots and pads or casts. You need stimualtion to encourage growth.

What do you mean by casts? Like Equipak?

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:03 PM

if this is how you ask questions I'm glad you're not asking me any ...

rude, uncalled for attacks were stated clearly as "unwelcome" at the beginning of this thread.

Where was I rude? I asked Vickey some questions and don't want her getting all upset. I live in NY, this is how many of us talk, direct, blunt but not rude or angry.

"Don't get your panties in a wad" is not a nasty statement :rolleyes: I can show you nasty as an example if you'd like :)

LMH

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:04 PM

Kim, when I attended KC's classes he NEVER talked about walking on gravel to toughen up feet.

He talks about pad walking and asphalt walking but never did forced gravel walks.

That is actually the opposite of KC.

I know you are not a fan of him but at least criticize him for the right reasons.

AND as you well know, sometimes the students don't do as well as the teacher-if I judged Pete Ramey on everyone that claims to have learned from him, Pete would be moving from embarrassment.

I know of sore horses trimmed by those trained by everyone so no one is immune. Sore Strasser horses, Gene horses, Pete horses, Cindy horses, KC horses blah blah blahAT went in a different direction for Libbey and you went in a different direction for Finn.

What's the big deal? Everyone just tries to do the best she can for heaven's sake.

Also keep in mind trimming can require SOME ability to read the hoof-not something every weekend warrior has.

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:07 PM

Thank you. My finger is hovering over the report button, folks. If all you wanna do is throw poo at each other, make a new thread on it. :lol:

What in the world are you talking about? Why is your finger hovering on the "Report" button? :eek:

quoted from AceVentura - Dubbing the toe off in a mustang roll and applying some special potions isn't enough.

This is being rude couched in flowery terms.

No one is throwing anything out there. Tom Bloomer said all the diploma'd folk out of KC's school do great trimming. I beg to differ. And yes people who claim to do a less is more trim are soring horses, as are farriers, as have I as have anyone who has touched a horses foot with rasps/knives/nippers/shoes. The trick is not to do it more than once or twice :D

So I was letting Tom know what I see by me.

So anyway, back to your discussion.

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:08 PM

HUH? Who are you slamming with that statement? I have 3 THREE, incase you miss it THREE graduates of KC's program in my area and 2 - TWO in the NJ area.
WHO was slamming anyone? What the heck are you reading into that comment? It was a comment based on KC's philosophy, to make a point that NOT ALL trim methods actually try to deal with a performance horse. Whether or not that does/should make a difference is irrelevant as far as this discussion goes.

ANY program has crappy trimmers. Period. There are some real idiots out there claiming to use Pete's methods. There are some morons who have (at least for the time being) an AANHCP certification. So? What IS your point?

I see long toes, thin soles, horses being forced to walk on gravel (NOT PEA GRAVEL) to "toughen" up the feet. Yeah, see above - your point?

I also hear from owners and thru the grapevine of sore horses. Not all of them but a higher number than should be.Should be? That's certainly all relative. There are a hell of a lot more complaints about CJFs and AFAs than there "should be".

Okay you aren't going to like me saying this, but if that is so true, why did you have Nancy Filbert, a Strasserite come and "fix" your horse and get her "sound", where you hadn't?Wow, Kim, that was a really low blow even for you lately. What is UP with you these days? I mean seriously! You cannot possibly tell me that you have never, ever run into a situation that you could not fix. And if you did, I'd have to either call you a liar, or say that you haven't run into a serious enough problem.

Or are we comparing apples to oranges cuz Libby isn't a "performance" horse.What does that have to do with anything?

Again.. HUH??? which horse has doubled her soles (Libby?) and why can't you take your digital camera to the vet clinic, put the rads up on the lightbox and take pix? I've never had a vet tell me I can't see my clients xrays. Sometimes I have to pick them up, or the client does. I always have to give them back, but how can I work on pathological cases without seeing the Rad's?So you're calling AT either a liar, or lazy, which is it? She does not have to do any such thing that you said. Her horse, her rads, her business. She never said her vet couldn't see the rads. I have NO problem with a vet saying that rads from an analog xray cannot leave the office if there is only 1 copy.

Now don't go and get your panties in a wad, this is a conversation and I'm not attacking you, just asking questions.You certainly are attacking her, and MY panties are in a wad FOR her.

Using boots does not always build sole, nor does using boots/pads correctly always build sole.Neither do shoes. And sometimes each of those does exactly that. Point?

Kim, I really do not know why you post some of the things you have lately. You are not even the same person who used to be here. I really do not understand.

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:11 PM

Kim you seem to like jumping people lately take a chill pill this isn't life and death.

No I'm not jumping anyone lately. I haven't posted in some time except in reply to BTR.

I am just pointing out some serious holes in certain peoples stories.

Leah: Anthony Media (spelling) first graduate of KC's school lives about 10 miles from me. He had many of his clients go out and buy item 4 and line the paddocks with it. I'm relating MY experiences in relation to KC's people in MY AREA. I haven't read KC's books, haven't seen his clinics so am only basing what I know on what I see and hear.

I have no dislike for KC's trimming, I had an issue with his obsession with reinventing the wheel and taking Dave Richards stuff.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:15 PM

What do you mean by casts? Like Equipak?

Equicast. EquiPak is used in combination with shoes.

webmistress32

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:17 PM

I live in NY, this is how many of us talk, direct, blunt but not rude or angry.

living in NY is not a carte blanche to talk to other people like they are clueless idiots on a public forum. that is rude. bottom line.

IMHO bringing up old news that's not relevant to *this* thread and referring to certain posters by their *real* names when clearly they do not sign their posts with their real names can be construed as out of bounds and therefore an attack.

please do everyone (and this thread) a favor. stay on the topic. provide relevant insight and facts that we can all understand. and leave the insider info that we won't understand for private correspondence.

that is all. :D

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:20 PM

Thank you. My finger is hovering over the report button, folks. If all you wanna do is throw poo at each other, make a new thread on it. :lol:

I appreciate all the added input though that's on-topic! I know some folks are saying diet changes, but say you need to offer the horse protection NOW from wearing down too much. Since diet changes will take a long time, what would your immediate response be, to keep the horse comfortable and sound? That's basically what my original question was. :yes:

Thought it had been mentioned already. If any of my barefooters would have the problem of wearing off more than what they grow (which none of them do) I would put them part of the time on boots. The activity causing most of that excess wear would be the time I would choose to put the boots on.

2enduraceriders

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:27 PM

please by all means feel free to check the arrogant attitude and false statements at the door.

I ride endurance, ride on rocks, event, jump, do dressage, Xcountry, you name it. all seasons - all terrain.

my horses are all barefoot and we have no problem with hooves wearing faster than they can be grown.

when I want to grow longer/stronger fingernails I drum my fingertips on the desk. when I want my horse to grow more hoof, I stimulate it with work.

I do not find you listed with the AERC as having done any rides under you married or maiden name. Please correct me if I am wrong but you are not there.

My statements come from years of involvement is 50+ length endurance rides and seasons of competition in UMERCA. I have one mare that we did 725 miles of competition in one season through UMECRA.

Horses that the owners think are fit come south to ride and end up lame and often dead...... :(

So out of 30+ years of riding, breeding, trail and endurance rides I will stand by the statement that most horses are not working for a living.
No where did I say there was anything wrong with horses as pets. I even have some. My pets go barefoot too......

So...come ride the trails in Southern IL. Please prove me wrong about barefoot horses. I have yet to meet a successful barefoot horse that is rode more then twice a month on the trails here.

I would love someone to answer the posters question on how do you fix it other then shoeing when hoof is worn off faster then it grows. I have no desire to keep shoes on just a desire to keep my animals sound and comfortable. I often feed to grow twice the normal hoof to correct a problem hoof but even with feeding that way still need to shoe.

It seems strange that when the farriers on here comment they are automatically accused of wanting to make money. A really simple fact of time/materials means there is much more money to be had trimming. I yet to run across a farrier that cares if he just trims, shoes or has a client use boots. Most do as best they can for the horse/owner see often hundreds of horses and have a better idea what works then owners.

I was getting a big kick out of some of the earlier posts. I can really do without the avid barefoot for all reasons attitude.

webmistress32

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:34 PM

2enduraceriders - my credentials are of no relevence to this thread other than to respond to the OP regarding her question can hard working horses be barefoot? clearly in my *personal* experience that answer is yes.

shall I get into a competition with you as to who rides more or harder? please by all means start a thread titled "I challenge webmistress32 to a ride-off" and I shall await with baited breath to participate.

ps much of my riding is done in Southern IL, the Shawnee to be exact. maybe we can meet F2F at Egon Kamarasy's 90th birthday party on 3/21 in Carbondale?

pps I am NOT a hoof professional in any sense of the word ... my interest only is to ensure not another hoof care thread is laid to waste due to the unbecoming behavior of some certain people.

pps I have yet to meet a successful barefoot horse that is rode more then twice a month on the trails here.
you seem to make a lot of assumptions and post them here as fact. just because you haven't met them doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm sure you meant "ridden", right?

Moderator 1

Feb. 26, 2009, 03:43 PM

Please refocus on the main topic of the thread and avoid the personal commentary.

Thanks,
Mod 1

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:15 PM

sometimes each of those does exactly that. Point?

Kim, I really do not know why you post some of the things you have lately. You are not even the same person who used to be here. I really do not understand.

I am the same person JB, lighten up. I'm just tired of all the "experts" saying "IF you just had the DIET right" "IF you just cared enough to do the extra work and walk your horse in boots and pads" "If if if"

OP is asking about horses wearing hoof faster, BTR has made claims that if you just fix the diet you won't have that problem.

Vickey is saying if you just cared more, worked a little harder than you would have thick soles and sound feet.

I'm questioning those thoughts, I just don't do it while stepping lightly and circling around the issues. I personally don't have horses (personal or clients) who wear their feet more than they can grow. Didn't feel the need to jump in and respond to OP about it and I'm ignoring the comments by some that barefoot horses can't be performance horses. :rolleyes:

I guarantee you that there are many trim styles be there KC, Farrier, Pete, etc that have performance horses. Some are bare and some are shod.

I'm questioning some of the info that Vickey is giving in her posts? It is NOT an attack it is questions. I for one would like to see xrays of doubled sole and I did want to clarify if she meant Libby or another horse. She has rads of Libby's feet on her website so I couldn't figure out why she didn't have these. What in the world is wrong with that? She made these comments in this thread so I kept my questions here.

I didn't use foul language, I didn't call her a liar or a fake or lazy. I am QUESTIONING her. Just like she has done publicly on my trimming style and statements I've made.

So nothing crazy going on just looking for clarification.

grayarabs

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:19 PM

George Myers

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:33 PM

lol :lol:

Yes, or travel 450 miles from outside Chicago to go on a riding vacation with their horse and ride only one day before the horse is too sore to go on. Then either shoe or don't ride. Of course it is the trail's fault.

Most horses are pets and can go barefoot easily. Very few hardworking horses can. If you think your barefoot horse is fit and sound please come ride with me and my 12 year old daughter for a 4 hour ride.

If I didn't live on the other side of the world I'd love to. :)

Were horses extensively used in warfare, trade and migration prior to the development of nailed on horseshoes?

Anyone would think that shod horses never go lame. How many shod horses, if they throw a shoe, would be able to complete a 4 hour ride on broken rock without becoming footsore?

It's obvious some horses are better suited to some sorts of work - it's also obvious that if you want to leave your horse without shoes - as nature / god (take your pick) - intended it to be - you have to pick a horse that can do the work you want it to do and condition the feet - just as you would condition its muscles.

Anyone of the mindset that they can transport a horse 450 miles and expect it to carry them happily on terrain its feet aren't conditioned for should definitely stick to shoeing - or better still, buy a mountain bike.

I've never competed in endurance but I've done a lot of long distance riding (ie 8+ hours a day) over some pretty rough terrain - on shod and barefoot horses. I've seen riders of shod horses avoid very stony tracks, or get off and walk their horses on dodgy areas which is just sensible riding in my view. Why is that any different if the rider of a barefoot horse does it?

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:43 PM

Interesting subject. This topic was touched on about a year ago and I responded with a link to an article and a photo where a horse had worn back his toes "to nubs". I will try to find the link - but the photo clearly showed the heels very high (hinds) and IIRC it seemed the horse was wearing/dragging his toes in the abrasive arena surface.
I walk/ride my horse on asphalt and note the "wears" on the toe wall - as in bringing it back. I note lesser amounts of "scraping" on the heels and sole around toe wall.
It's one thing to be abnormally dragging a foot to cause such wear on an abrasive surface, and another to be saying that normal movement is causing too much wear. My WB gelding has excessive wear on his LH if I ride too much in my screenings ring AND I don't have him fit enough and/or don't ride him properly. His stifle is catchy/weaker, and he's lazy, so it takes some combination of enough long, proper riding for him not to do that. I don't disagree that there can't be excessive wearing. But as I stated before, first you have to find the REAL cause, and then fix it *if you can*. If you cannot, or don't want to, then you have to choose boots or shoes or a different lifestyle for the horse :)

I have often wondered if we spent hours a day on the asphalt how far back he would wear his toes. Because there is no sinking of the foot, causing the body to have to work harder (than the horse wants to, or is capable of) to come out of that footing in a more upward movement rather than simply baaaarely lifting enough as to not trip, I would bet the toe wear would be less on asphalt.

But - I believe what I read - that wear stimulates growth - and that growth keeps up with wear. I don't think I have ever seen proof/photos of horses with hooves really worn down to bloody nubs. Short of that - hooves worn down to where horses are sore. The latter I would have to assume unbalanced trim.I DO believe there can be a horse/environment/amount of exercise combination that can cause more wear than the body can possibly replace, over time, causing the foot/feet to be sore. I just haven't seen it. What I HAVE seen is the visual determination that there is "too much wear". I look back on one horse that was at the barn at which I grew up riding. Front shoes were put on her because her 2 hours (max! and not even every day) of work in the screenings ring was causing "too much wear". Well sure, her toes were squaring off, I believed it - feet shouldnt' be square! Shoes were put on, squaring stopped. The farrier agreed. Same CJF who messed up my TB's feet. However, even knowing as little as I did then, I soon became aware that feet shouldn't look like hers - more and more out in front of her. Knowing now what I desperately wish I'd known then, it was very clear that her feet were just too darn long to begin with, and she was working on putting her toes back where they belonged.

IMHO regarding the horses in the wild - if this did not happen - ie growth keeping up with wear - then I doubt we would have as many wild/feral horses as we do. Gosh - that being the case - hooves worn to nubs/lameness - we might not have any wild horses.
Yes, there is survival of the fittest - and I believe Pete Ramey said that the "survivors" are the hooves to study - ie what obviously works. I believe that in hard, rugged rocky country there will be a mustang roll - rather extreme ones. Only makes sense.Sure, but those horses are walking for the vast majority of the miles they travel. The only feet that I truly believe would have wear exceed growth would be horses travelling miles and miles and miles a day/week/month at more than a walk. Endurance horses come to mind. Perhaps ranch horses who are actually USED to head out in harsh terrain, for weeks at a time, to bring cattle back on. Not the generic Hunter or Jumper or Dressage or Barrel or whatever horse who spends even 2 hours a day in a conditioned ring. Now, maybe if that same horse is stalled the other 22 hours a day, with no real proclivity to generate growth, maybe. Maybe.

Lastly, when folks say the hooves wear down - what part of hoof? Toe wall?
Sole? Wall height? Heels? I would like to see examples. Again - all very interesting.I would love to see examples too. I've asked for them, over the last few years, on a few bb's, and nobody ever comes up with anything :(

2enduraceriders

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:50 PM

<<<Were horses extensively used in warfare, trade and migration prior to the development of nailed on horseshoes?>>>

hipposandals!!! :winkgrin:

These were used when horses were not rode but only pulled chariots. Seems even the Romans needed "shoes" for their horses.

greysandbays

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:50 PM

Were horses extensively used in warfare, trade and migration prior to the development of nailed on horseshoes?

Well, the first guy who decided it was worth going to the grunt work to put shoes on a horse didn't decide to do it because he was sitting around one day and exclaimed, "Damn, that horse's hooves are getting too long!"

And the little ditty
"For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail."
wasn't coined because barefoot war horses were so superior.

2enduraceriders

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:53 PM

http://horseshoemuseum.com/Ancient/Ancient.htm

<<<Roman Britain, 1st-2nd century AD
From Sun Street, Bishopsgate, London
Nailed horseshoes were known but rarely used by the Romans. Much more common were iron hipposandals, a form of temporary shoe that could be fastened to the hoof for use on metalled roads and easily removed when not required. Hipposandals were probably intended for draught animals: horses, ponies or mules. Because the animal's hoof exerted great pressure, they had to be made from thick metal. The underside was often given a tread to increase the animal's grip on the surface of the road.

Like many Roman metal finds from London, this large example is in almost new condition, having been preserved in waterlogged ground.>>>>>

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:55 PM

Lastly, when folks say the hooves wear down - what part of hoof? Toe wall?
Sole? Wall height? Heels? I would like to see examples. Again - all very interesting.

I was thinking of the walls in general, but the soles could be a consideration too, yes. :yes:

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 04:58 PM

I have seen those buggies in PA. They go full blast. The ones I saw were shod on asphalt. Not hijacking the thread or straiting a controversy(hiding head) but going full bore with shoes on asphalt does it cause long term problems?
Yes it causes problems. They eventually wear out from the pounding. Though probably not any worse than show jumpers or upper level eventers. OTOH, how long did your last vehicle last? ;)

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 05:19 PM

I would love someone to answer the posters question on how do you fix it other then shoeing when hoof is worn off faster then it grows. I have no desire to keep shoes on just a desire to keep my animals sound and comfortable. I often feed to grow twice the normal hoof to correct a problem hoof but even with feeding that way still need to shoe.
[/QUOTE]

I don't know how many posts it's going to take...For starters, most barefooters would prevent excessive wear, as opposed to fixing. A popular tool for that purpose are boots that come in all sizes and flavors.

Never been trailriding in Southern Ill., but the ground here in my corner of Texas is pretty darn hard when it's dry, with numerous gravel roads to boot. I have 9 horses, all barefoot, and none have excessive wear. All are sound too.

Ever heard of Darolyn Butler? She's a well known endurance rider. She has 50 horses that all work for their living - barefoot.

I am not a BUA, but really, when all my horses are sound and ready to go being barefooted, why on earth would I put shoes on them???

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 05:21 PM

I don't know how many posts it's going to take...For starters, most barefooters would prevent excessive wear, as opposed to fixing. A popular tool for that purpose are boots that come in all sizes and flavors.

Never been trailriding in Southern Ill., but the ground here in my corner of Texas is pretty darn hard when it's dry, with numerous gravel roads to boot. I have 9 horses, all barefoot, and none have excessive wear. All are sound too.

Ever heard of Darolyn Butler? She's a well known endurance rider. She has 50 horses that all work for their living - barefoot.

I am not a BUA, but really, when all my horses are sound and ready to go being barefooted, why on earth would I put shoes on them???

If you were referring to me, I'm actually in central IL, not southern. :)

If not, carry on! :lol:

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 05:33 PM

Tom Bloomer said all the diploma'd folk out of KC's school do great trimming.
No, Tom Bloomer said, "I have never seen . . ." That accounts for MY observations and experience, not ALL the diploma'd folk.

I beg to differ.Why do you need to beg? You've seen and experienced different but you certainly don't have to beg. ;)

And yes people who claim to do a less is more trim are soring horses, as are farriers, as have I as have anyone who has touched a horses foot with rasps/knives/nippers/shoes. The trick is not to do it more than once or twice :DGood judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

So I was letting Tom know what I see by me.That's fine, but please don't "beg." You can differ without begging. :cool:

I a past life I rescued a lot of failing projects that were being poorly managed by MBAs. That doesn't mean that I think less of the Wharton, Yale, or Harvard MBA Programs. Not everyone learns to apply what they were taught and many folks fail to retain the essence of the lesson.

grayarabs

Feb. 26, 2009, 05:50 PM

I found it! Old post with info. Try:
http://www.hoofcare.com/article_pdf/HoofcarePethickFooting.pdf

If that does not work go to:
www.hoofcare.com

Scroll down to click on article - something like "footing factor in sporthorse hooves".
Great photos etc.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 26, 2009, 05:53 PM

I have no dislike for KC's trimming, I had an issue with his obsession with reinventing the wheel and taking Dave Richards stuff.That's funny. You actually think anybody in the hoofcare business "invented" the composites that are marketed under various brand names. I was using most of that stuff, eurethane, acrylic, silicone, epoxy, polyester, etc. in the marine industry 30 years ago. Polimers may be new to hoof care, but if you ever worked in a boat yard, sign making, aricraft, automotive, medical, ANY manufacturing that uses thermoset plastics, it's just same old same old.

Larbear

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:10 PM

HUH? Who are you slamming with that statement? I have 3 THREE, incase you miss it THREE graduates of KC's program in my area and 2 - TWO in the NJ area.

I see long toes, thin soles, horses being forced to walk on gravel (NOT PEA GRAVEL) to "toughen" up the feet.

I also hear from owners and thru the grapevine of sore horses. Not all of them but a higher number than should be.

Okay you aren't going to like me saying this, but if that is so true, why did you have Nancy Filbert, a Strasserite come and "fix" your horse and get her "sound", where you hadn't?

Or are we comparing apples to oranges cuz Libby isn't a "performance" horse.

snip

Well, not to attack but if *your* trimming is so wonderful, how come you had to resort to shoes? Now, don't get yourself all in knots or anything...this is a conversation and I'm not attacking you, just asking questions. Have you looked at any other trimming protocols?

LarkspurCO

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:10 PM

Well I am "privileged" to own two horses whose hooves wear off faster than they grow, and the only solution I've found is shoeing. The horses live out and move around a lot and are ridden on sand and other abrasive surfaces.

Photos below are one example. He wasn't even working at that point. When I start him working the walls will wear more. He's comfortable enough for light work on soft footing now, but I'll have to shoe him soon if I want to continue riding him. Hoof boots aren't an option (EasyBoot classics don't stay on and he can't have anything touching the heel or pastern).

These photos were taken 2 1/2 weeks after his last trim. The heels were balanced at that time, bars cleaned up and wall edges rounded. He wears his feet oddly because of a conformational flaw that causes him to twist the foot with each step. His heels are not high. You'll notice bruising in the toe area.

Left hind:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/DesiLH3-Feb1-09.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/DesiLH-Feb1-09.jpg
Right hind:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/DesiRH-Feb1-09.jpg

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:34 PM

rmh

Feb. 26, 2009, 07:42 PM

Tom my vehicles and animals last a long time because I take good care of them.
Lake the problem with those feet is the trim and long toe. Maybe that is what is causing wear. If the breakover was correct the wear would be better and if the trim was better the walls would not be chipping, think self trimming. I ride a lot in the sandhill area of NC in the winter and get to the Outer Banks in the summer. I also do most of my other riding in very rocky places. The only time I see wear is in deep sand when the trim is due.

BornToRide

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:10 PM

Well, not to attack but if *your* trimming is so wonderful, how come you had to resort to shoes? Now, don't get yourself all in knots or anything...this is a conversation and I'm not attacking you, just asking questions. Have you looked at any other trimming protocols?
Yes, I have wondered about that as well. I do not believe trimming exclusively from the top, as indicated on your website, is the right approach for every horse.

You may have considered diet and other things, but have you also considered that your horse's digestive system may be compromised and therefore he is having trouble absorbing necessary nutrients that causes his hooves to be weaker? Or it could be that he's getting too much iron from somewhere, which again would interfere with the absorption of vital nutrients?

Like I said before, I still do not believe you have found the root cause of your horse's hoof problems.

OP is asking about horses wearing hoof faster, BTR has made claims that if you just fix the diet you won't have that problem.I did not say that - I said if that's the case, I would look at diet as a possible contributing factor, as it is often the case.

I had one horse's hooves messed up by eating bracken ferns , another from having a heavy wormload and others from drinking water that was too high in iron. Since the offending sources have been identified and corrected, the horse hooves are all improving.

So many times Pete Ramey has found that diet is a major player when it comes to hoof health and I completely and utterly agree with him. I also have yet to hear from him that he had cases that would not improve with diet, trim and exercise so he felt obliged to put shoes back on.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 26, 2009, 09:30 PM

If you were referring to me, I'm actually in central IL, not southern. :)

If not, carry on! :lol:

Sorry, the poster I qouted and replied to was 2enduraceriders...the "quote" part didn't work too well. :)

irishcas

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:27 PM

Yes, I have wondered about that as well. I do not believe trimming exclusively from the top, as indicated on your website, is the right approach for every horse.

Where, anywhere have I said my trimming style is right for every horse ?? :confused:

You may have considered diet and other things, but have you also considered that your horse's digestive system may be compromised and therefore he is having trouble absorbing necessary nutrients that causes his hooves to be weaker? Or it could be that he's getting too much iron from somewhere, which again would interfere with the absorption of vital nutrients?

Tell ya what. I have a spare bedroom, I will give you free room/board (you pay for food and your day to day expenses) and you can come and observe Finn and tell me what I'm doing wrong that would cause me to "Resort to Shoes" to "fix" him. You can document it, while I do too and share your findings with the world. If you do fix him, I will kiss your feet and your behind publicly as I will be beyond overjoyed that a fix has been found.

I have spent tens of thousands of dollars "fixing" his digestive system, along with a host of other issues.

Like I said before, I still do not believe you have found the root cause of your horse's hoof problems.

And people wonder why I'm slightly agitated :rolleyes: snort! Your audacity has no bounds!

Like I'VE SAID Finn's issues are NOT diet or Metabolic related. But gee I just live with him 24/7/365 and have tried everything and spared no expense (except shoes, til 6 weeks ago).

I did not say that - I said if that's the case, I would look at diet as a possible contributing factor, as it is often the case.

Uhhh you always say it's diet related....

So many times Pete Ramey has found that diet is a major player when it comes to hoof health and I completely and utterly agree with him. I also have yet to hear from him that he had cases that would not improve with diet, trim and exercise so he felt obliged to put shoes back on.

YOU have YET to HEAR from him? Do tell? How often do you speak to Pete? I talked to him last week, he never mentioned discussing diet and hoof health with you, Ute? I asked him about you, he said he's never heard of you. Oh right, I'm being rude and unfeeling... sigh. No just honest and realistic. First off my hoof care thoughts do not rise and set on the findings of Sir Pete Ramey. I love Pete, adore him, think he is a lovely guy. I am interested in his findings. Thats where it ends, Pete is not up on a pedestal for me, especially because He does not ride on a regular basis and doesn't own a horse (his wife's horse, the draft doesn't count, pasture ornament).

He admits, in our most recent conversation he REGRETS ever saying Gravel Crunching Sound. Amen, my respect for him grew last week upon that admission. Pete loves to push his latest findings. A few years ago it was Lysol, then it was Pete's Magic Butt Creme, now it's Copper/Zinc. He is right for some horses but it is never the magic pill for ALL horses, all the time.

Shoot me for telling the truth, hate me, Whatevah! there is no magic pill for all that ails the hoof. (wish there was)

Ute you are so far removed from reality/hoofcare that it is scary. I've said it before and will say it again, your trim (that you've shown is fine) your hoofcare beliefs are wackadoodle

My new motto is that my "gurus" need to be working on horses feet AND riding or they aren't guru's. HoustonFarrier (Steve) whom I've never met is held in high regard, he trims/shoes/USES his horses.

Pete doesn't own/ride horses.... Not a guru. Bowker -- love what he has come up with -- doesn't ride... Not a guru. etc etc...

You all are mad at me cuz I'm not agreeing with what you say anymore. I'm done being your knight in shining armour and that is what I was, whether you want to admit it or not.

You want to take up this discussion start another thread, I'm worried about Sublime's hovering finger.

BTW, another difference between you all and I.. no matter how wiggy someone gets I don't report it to the Mod......:eek: I'm a big girl and can take what I dish out.

Over and Out.

Appassionato

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:31 PM

...A lot of people shoe their horses because if the horse is working hard or just not growing very quickly, it will wear the feet down faster than they grow. So shoes are applied to protect the hoof from wearing down too fast, to keep the horse sound and comfortable and in work.

I'm curious as to what a person who doesn't use shoes would do. Say you have a horse that is wearing faster than it grows, and not just because of the workload, but its wearing them down just romping in the rocky/hard pasture. What do you do? Use boots? But most boots aren't designed to be worn 24/7, or turned out for extended periods of time in them, from what I understand. So if the horse is wearing the feet down just romping in the pasture it lives in, what would the trimmer do? :confused:

Just curious what the non-shoe folks use or do when the typical "time to add shoes!" situation pops up. Say the horse isn't lame yet, but may become lame if it keeps wearing them down. What would a trimmer do to minimize wear on the hoof? :)...

I've seen the type of horses you are talking about. And as much as I hate to say it, "it depends" on what should be done. Or several things should be done. I'm only a layman, so my advice is to be taken with a grain of salt.

First, I will mention diet to some's dismay. Not just the NSC stuff, but the correct nutrients for that horse. My old guy needed more protein. It was no brainer while he was competing/foxhunting/working hard, but once he was retired I dropped it. Maybe that wasn't such a good idea. I doubt it caused his demise, but it may have helped his recovery from founder if he had the nutrients he clearly needed. I say "clearly needed" becuase the horse had no hoof growth and I thought it was just his age, but once I added higher protein he beefed up and started growing some hoof. Lesson learned!

Second, shoes aren't a bad idea given it isn't poor shoeing. I think we're all on the same page about how detrimental poor shoeing can be. ;) In any case, I think shoes would be the *only* option for the horse if the horse was wearing their hooves due to structural abnormalities (although, how many straight horses have we all seen?). Unmeven wear of the hooves, detrimentally, would also raise my eyebrows and make me seek out something along the lines of shoes.

Third, there is something to be said about dedication on the owner's part, whether they are just slack or just can't be out as often as we'd all like. Some boots are designed for turnout like the Sabre Sneaker. But, one must weight the horse's environment as well as well the horse's current hoof condition. A wet shelly hoof IMO shouldn't be stuffed into a Sabre Sneaker even with Gold Bond powder thrown in for days at a time when moisture can build up. I'm also a big fan of Keratex, but some owners have reported problems that the hooves became too hard for the horse's comfort. In my case while barefoot the horses hooves still crumbled (but hard as a rock while shod...back to the structural abnormalities I guess?). But back to the non-shoeing methods, there are products out there designed for the barefoot horse such as Equipack's Sole Guard (if sole depth or protection is needed), various boots for temporary use (some turnout, not 24/7), and even a product that is to be applied as a gel that hardens like a shoe that is basically a mini perimeter-fit shoe if you will. Of course others have mentioned how boots, pads, and surfaces have helped stimulate growth, and I fully agree with them as well on that aspect. Again, some owners live a distance from their horses and only have so much time to devote. I can absolutely understand that as a former college student who commuted.

I hope they are able to dredge out a good plan for their horse soon! :winkgrin:

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:43 PM

Please stay on topic, folks. If ya wanna talk one on one with someone in this thread, take it to PMs.

BornToRide

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:44 PM

Ute you are so far removed from reality/hoofcare that it is scary. I've said it before and will say it again, your trim (that you've shown is fine) your hoofcare beliefs are wackadoodle

And here we go again - more rudeness. You know very little about me or my work, but you are quick to make assumptions.

Despite me supposedly (according to you) being so far removed from reality and hoofcare, I have a solid client base with happy and healthy horses that only keeps growing because I get referred left and right. This to me it the proof in the pudding about the quality of my work, not your (or others) rants, rudeness and certainly not your opinion about me.

OTOH, you look VERY unprofessional the way you are conducting yourself on this and other forums. This is your reality and I hope you will realize that at some point!

sublimequine

Feb. 26, 2009, 10:47 PM

I've seen the type of horses you are talking about. And as much as I hate to say it, "it depends" on what should be done. Or several things should be done. I'm only a layman, so my advice is to be taken with a grain of salt.

First, I will mention diet to some's dismay. Not just the NSC stuff, but the correct nutrients for that horse. My old guy needed more protein. It was no brainer while he was competing/foxhunting/working hard, but once he was retired I dropped it. Maybe that wasn't such a good idea. I doubt it caused his demise, but it may have helped his recovery from founder if he had the nutrients he clearly needed. I say "clearly needed" becuase the horse had no hoof growth and I thought it was just his age, but once I added higher protein he beefed up and started growing some hoof. Lesson learned!

Second, shoes aren't a bad idea given it isn't poor shoeing. I think we're all on the same page about how detrimental poor shoeing can be. ;) In any case, I think shoes would be the *only* option for the horse if the horse was wearing their hooves due to structural abnormalities (although, how many straight horses have we all seen?). Unmeven wear of the hooves, detrimentally, would also raise my eyebrows and make me seek out something along the lines of shoes.

Third, there is something to be said about dedication on the owner's part, whether they are just slack or just can't be out as often as we'd all like. Some boots are designed for turnout like the Sabre Sneaker. But, one must weight the horse's environment as well as well the horse's current hoof condition. A wet shelly hoof IMO shouldn't be stuffed into a Sabre Sneaker even with Gold Bond powder thrown in for days at a time when moisture can build up. I'm also a big fan of Keratex, but some owners have reported problems that the hooves became too hard for the horse's comfort. In my case while barefoot the horses hooves still crumbled (but hard as a rock while shod...back to the structural abnormalities I guess?). But back to the non-shoeing methods, there are products out there designed for the barefoot horse such as Equipack's Sole Guard (if sole depth or protection is needed), various boots for temporary use (some turnout, not 24/7), and even a product that is to be applied as a gel that hardens like a shoe that is basically a mini perimeter-fit shoe if you will. Of course others have mentioned how boots, pads, and surfaces have helped stimulate growth, and I fully agree with them as well on that aspect. Again, some owners live a distance from their horses and only have so much time to devote. I can absolutely understand that as a former college student who commuted.

I hope they are able to dredge out a good plan for their horse soon! :winkgrin:

I agree that diet does play an important role, but like I said, I was curious what non-shoe folks would do in the meantime while the improved diet hasn't actually taken effect yet. :)

Moderator 1

Feb. 26, 2009, 11:19 PM

Please stay on topic, folks. If ya wanna talk one on one with someone in this thread, take it to PMs.

What she said. ;)

Please rein it in closer to the main topic.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Rick Burten

Feb. 27, 2009, 12:02 AM

ps much of my riding is done in Southern IL, the Shawnee to be exact.

So? That terrain, while at times, physically challenging( from an exertion effort) to the horse, is not necessarily very hard on the horse's feet. Mostly dirt trails, occasional rock, some loose shale type footing, short stretches of gravel often with by-passes available. Done at a leisurely walk and/or occasional jog/trot, not really challenging to most feet on most horses.

And, before you go and get all huffy and wadded up, I started riding in Shawnee National Forrest back in the 70's and continued to do so until I gave my last horse away in the late 90's. I still occasionally hike the trails there but bad knees limit how much I want to go on walkabout down there.

Now if you really want to test how well your barefoot horse will hold up under 'trying' footing conditions, why not go and ride for say, 10 days or so in Eminence, MO.? And for a real challenge while you're there, ride out with the Walking horses, keep up with them, and then get back to us with the results of how your horse[and you] did.

Rick Burten

Feb. 27, 2009, 12:07 AM

Ever heard of Darolyn Butler? She's a well known endurance rider. She has 50 horses that all work for their living - barefoot.

Ummmmm, not quite. Ms. Butler is known to shoe her horses when the competition is over ground that will give them problems/trouble, barefoot.

I am not a BUA, but really, when all my horses are sound and ready to go being barefooted, why on earth would I put shoes on them???

Whomever is saying you should? That said, to [at least] paraphrase Bro. Stovall, "No horse that needed shoes to do its best, ever did better when the shoes were removed and the horse left barefoot."

matryoshka

Feb. 27, 2009, 12:23 AM

Shoe the horse.

There was a Belgian mare we shod in my farrier class. They had tried taking her barefoot, but she unfortunately was base narrow starting at the knee. IOW, very crooked legs. She was a trail horse, and she had worn the lateral sides of her feet down until they were nubs, and she stood quivering in pain as we students futzed around trying to figure out how to trim her and then shape shoes to fit. I was so upset by her level of discomfort that I couldn't bring myself to nail on the shoe for fear of getting one too close. The instructor had to nail it on.

The mare's relief was palpable once the shoes were on. Even if they had given her a break from trail riding, it is my belief that her conformation would have led to continuous overwearing of the lateral sides of her feet to the point of soreness. She needed shoes.

So I had my "epiphany" about some horses needing shoes before I ever completed a basic farrier course. Nobody had to convince me: the mare's pain was a clear enough message.

If a horse is overwearing its feet, and yes, I had this happen with a Friesian I trim, I'm not wasting too much time trying to figure out why--there's plenty of time for that once the horse has been made comfortable. If I've trimmed it more than once, I'm already doing the best job I know how. If that is not enough for the horse, it is time to call an experienced farrier.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 27, 2009, 01:23 AM

Now if you really want to test how well your barefoot horse will hold up under 'trying' footing conditions, why not go and ride for say, 10 days or so in Eminence, MO.?

When did you ride Eminence? Maybe we sat at the same table eating powdered eggs and drinking watery coffee. My old horse that went most of his life barefoot got his first set of shoes for Eminence. While the trails were certainly rugged, it's still not as hard and abrasive as some of the terrain here in Colorado.

And for a real challenge while you're there, ride out with the Walking horses, keep up with them, and then get back to us with the results of how your horse[and you] did.

We did it! Boy was that fun. Had to trot and canter the entire time to keep up. I got a few blisters but my horse was fine. I believe after that he quit trying to run his nose up the arse of the trail boss's mule.

George Myers

Feb. 27, 2009, 04:31 AM

webmistress32

Feb. 27, 2009, 02:45 PM

you ladies who digress these threads into catfights make your entire profession look bad.

I actually like what all three of you have to say and think you all have valid points - too bad they are hidden by the claws and fangs.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 27, 2009, 05:47 PM

You gallop for 16 miles?
Barefoot in the snow. Up hill both ways to school every day. :cool:

BornToRide

Feb. 27, 2009, 07:36 PM

Shoe the horse.

There was a Belgian mare we shod in my farrier class. They had tried taking her barefoot, but she unfortunately was base narrow starting at the knee. IOW, very crooked legs. She was a trail horse, and she had worn the lateral sides of her feet down until they were nubs, and she stood quivering in pain as we students futzed around trying to figure out how to trim her and then shape shoes to fit. I was so upset by her level of discomfort that I couldn't bring myself to nail on the shoe for fear of getting one too close. The instructor had to nail it on.
. Here is what I have found, and I am not saying this was perhaps the case with this mare, but since this happens too often, it could very well have been a factor....

I have a couple of cases where the horses wear the hinds excessively on the lateral edge almost to the point of collapsing that wall and excessively flare to the medial side. Both horses are slightly bow legged which I believe causes this problem.

This problem can quickly get out of hand if the longer, medial side is not taken down as much as needed as frequently as necessary. Those horses generally benefit from trimming every four - 5 weeks, just to keep those hooves in balance.

When I strated trimming the QH gelding that has this problem the affected hind was very out of shape for the reasons listed above. The previous farrier missed the adjustments that needed to be made for that hoof in order to trim it balanced to internal hoof structures.

One could also build up the side that is too low with Superfast to re-establish the necessary side to side balance.

In addition I believe specific body work and muscle conditioning that would target muscle that may be a contributing factor in such cases can also help to at least reduce or minimize this problem, if not eliminate it in some cases.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 27, 2009, 09:38 PM

Ummmmm, not quite. Ms. Butler is known to shoe her horses when the competition is over ground that will give them problems/trouble, barefoot.

Whomever is saying you should? That said, to [at least] paraphrase Bro. Stovall, "No horse that needed shoes to do its best, ever did better when the shoes were removed and the horse left barefoot."

C'mon Rick, in what could have been an interesting debate, you know nothing better to do than nit-picking?

1st paragraph of the quote: Ms. Butler also competes with horses being barefooted, but I was mainly speaking of the working horses on her ranch that are used for trailrides, training, etc. Also note that this was in response to 2enduraceriders who claims there are no working barefoot horses.

2nd paragraph: this was in response to, again 2enduraceriders, quote "I was getting a big kick out of some of the earlier posts. I can really do without the avid barefoot for all reasons attitude." unquote. My way of saying "I can really do without the avid 'put shoes on' for all reasons attitude.

Rick Burten

Feb. 27, 2009, 10:23 PM

When did you ride Eminence?

Never. But I have a rather large clientele that goes there who have shown me lots and lots of photos of the ground over which they ride, often several times a year. And not only do they want their horses shod, but padded too. It seems that there is nothing in the 'home environment' that can even remotely prepare a horse to ride those trails barefoot.

Rick Burten

Feb. 27, 2009, 10:30 PM

Both horses are slightly bow legged which I believe causes this problem.

Based on what?

Those horses generally benefit from trimming every four - 5 weeks, just to keep those hooves in balance.

Absent radiographic evidence, how do you know that what you are doing is not caused the hooves to actually be unbalanced?

The previous farrier missed the adjustments that needed to be made for that hoof in order to trim it balanced to internal hoof structures.

As asked above, absent radiographs how do you know what you did balanced the trim to the internal hoof structures?

One could also build up the side that is too low with Superfast to re-establish the necessary side to side balance.

This presumes that the hoof was actually out of M/L balance, a fact that you have not yet placed in evidence.

In addition I believe specific body work and muscle conditioning that would target muscle that may be a contributing factor in such cases can also help to at least reduce or minimize this problem, if not eliminate it in some cases.

Really? Which muscles specifically, would you target and what conditioning regimen/body work would you propose to accomplish that objective? Why?

J.D.

Feb. 27, 2009, 11:20 PM

BornToRide-Here is what I have found, and I am not saying this was perhaps the case with this mare, but since this happens too often, it could very well have been a factor...

Look into the conformation of the hock and get back with us.

I have a couple of cases where the horses wear the hinds excessively on the lateral edge almost to the point of collapsing that wall and excessively flare to the medial side. Both horses are slightly bow legged which I believe causes this problem.

see above

This problem can quickly get out of hand if the longer, medial side is not taken down as much as needed as frequently as necessary. Those horses generally benefit from trimming every four - 5 weeks, just to keep those hooves in balance.

When I strated trimming the QH gelding that has this problem the affected hind was very out of shape for the reasons listed above. The previous farrier missed the adjustments that needed to be made for that hoof in order to trim it balanced to internal hoof structures.

One could also build up the side that is too low with Superfast to re-establish the necessary side to side balance.

See above

In addition I believe specific body work and muscle conditioning that would target muscle that may be a contributing factor in such cases can also help to at least reduce or minimize this problem, if not eliminate it in some cases.

see above and by all means don't apply shoes to deter excessive wear due to conformation and the aging process:rolleyes::rolleyes::dead:

tkhawk

Feb. 28, 2009, 12:00 AM

In addition I believe specific body work and muscle conditioning that would target muscle that may be a contributing factor in such cases can also help to at least reduce or minimize this problem, if not eliminate it in some cases.

Hmm not sure I follow. Do you mean massage or some kind of specific exercises for the horse or maybe carraige?

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 28, 2009, 07:57 AM

I have a couple of cases where the horses wear the hinds excessively on the lateral edge almost to the point of collapsing that wall and excessively flare to the medial side. Both horses are slightly bow legged which I believe causes this problem.
Excessive wear on lateral hinds AND a medial flare indicate a problem further up - horse is compensating in how it bears weight on the limb. You aren't looking high enough and you don't know where to look or what to watch when you're looking.

I know where you are with this problem because I have been there myself. If you are going to get past it, you need to train with somebody that is very good at gait analysis. Unfortunately, you aren't likely to find somebody like that in your local sand pile.

matryoshka

Feb. 28, 2009, 09:04 AM

The mare in my example of excessive wear to the point of pain is a draft horse. How to describe the extent of the deviation in her knee? Hmmm. When her upper legs were parallel in stance, and we're talking a draft-horse broad chest, her feet touched. It was severe. I've seen other legs as bad, but not on a horse who weighs as much as a draft horse. With that amount of deviation, I think she might have had excessive wear even if she weren't ridden.

We were there to learn, and the instructor's job, aside from teaching us, was to keep the mare sound so she could earn her place in the barn, carrying the general public around beautiful trails. I'm guessing that the mare was required to carry heavier riders than what the lighter bred horses were expected to do.

As for the Friesian, she was being ridden dressage by a successful dressage competetor and judge several times a week in sand. The feet didn't look "too short" to me, but she said the mare was getting shorter strided and felt sore. I didn't argue, and the owner had access to one of the better farriers in the area. Mare got shoes, competed, won a bit, and everybody was happy. When the dressage rider stopped riding the mare at the end of the season, the shoes came off.

matryoshka

Feb. 28, 2009, 09:16 AM

I see many many cases of base narrow horses in the hind whose feet want to go wry. When I see this, I follow the joints upward. The deviation may start as high as the stifle (or higher, if I had x-ray vision). And I show the owner so they understand what their horse is dealing with. Depending on the horse's work load, they may do fine bare. However, if the workload leads to excess wear or I can't stop the hoof from going wry, I have the owner call a farrier. In one case of a large horse with wonky hind legs, the mare was shod on the hinds only. She went much better after that.

I was recently called out to a third-level dressage horse, 17hh, who has front leg deviations starting at the elbow--knees are offset medially. He is currently unsound, and IMO, it may stem from the conformational problems. His side bone looks like a unicorn horn on the lateral side of both fronts. :eek: She's hoping I can get the horse sound. That's when I outlined his conformation for her. I felt like I was breaking her heart. Oddly, I was the first hoof-care person she'd tried that looked at the rads and mentioned the side bone. :o

The horse needs a break from shoes until his heels open up and we get rid of the WLD. I'd like to give him a couple more months. Then, it is my opinion he should go back into shoes to prevent excess wear on the medial side of his fronts hooves. The owner is of an age where she is not going to mess with boots, and I wouldn't expect her to. Just in turn out and with lunging, the horse wears excessively medially. He's too far away to put onto a 3 week schedule to keep the lateral side from getting long and making the problem worse. Short term, I think it is okay.

I don't understand when people with serious competition goals do not look at the legs and check for straightness. Maybe I'm just lucky to have worked at a lay-up farm where we spent a lot of time watching how horses moved, and noting various injuries in correllation to specific conformational issues.

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 09:42 AM

Oddly, I was the first hoof-care person she'd tried that looked at the rads and mentioned the side bone.

Had the vet discussed the issue with the owner, and if so, did she ever mention/discuss it with any of the hoof-care people whose services she retained?

I don't understand when people with serious competition goals do not look at the legs and check for straightness.

Perhaps because they are not horsemen/women in any true sense of the word?

matryoshka

Feb. 28, 2009, 10:19 AM

Not to stray too far off topic...

But yes, she'd had a thorough workup done on the horse. The first time I was out there she was surprised about the side bone and I'd thought she didn't know. It turns out she was surprised that I'd mentioned the side bone, not that he had it. I had her feel the LC's so she could tell the difference and explained that it might be the reason the horse isn't sound. The RF is where he's lame, and the sidebone is worse on that side. The LC is opaque, very hard to the touch, and creates a bump above the coronet band. Other front hoof, less so. The RF has the more off-set knee. Diagonal hind is also not the best, so he's been compensating for a while.

He's a big boy. I'm thinking his size and relatively small feet are not helping him.

BornToRide

Feb. 28, 2009, 10:20 AM

Hmm not sure I follow. Do you mean massage or some kind of specific exercises for the horse or maybe carraige? Yes, because musculo-skeletal imbalances from past trauma or postural habits can be a contributing factor how a horse wears his hooves.

For example, it is rather common for pectoral and adductor muscles to overpower the lateral muscles in an undeveloped horse. This means you will see more adduction than abduction of the limbs when the horse moves which will affect how the horse steps on its hooves.

matryoshka

Feb. 28, 2009, 10:37 AM

Ooops. Just saw the second half you your question, Rick.

She'd used the same farrier for almost 20 years, and he was the attending farrier when the horse first went lame. She likes a long toe for dressage movement and didn't worry about the contracted heels until some of my other clients, friends of hers, pointed out the hoof imbalance. She then had a self-taught farrier pull his shoes. As far as I can tell, he did a decent trim. He saw the rads but focused on M/L imbalance and didn't mention the side bone.

I don't really know if she had anybody else out there to see him.

Now I'm not liking how his feet wear barefoot since I can see how he fared between my trims. I can't change his conformation.

Now I'm off to trim: 9 minis and a draft horse.

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:02 AM

This means you will see more adduction than abduction of the limbs when the horse moves which will affect how the horse steps on its hooves.

Ummmm, the horse's limbs and musculature are not designed for abduction(unless of course you are confusing adduction/abduction with extension and flexion). Because of the type of joints involved and the way the limbs are attached, especially in front, there is the potential for minimal abduction. The hind limbs, although they can be forcefully/externally abducted, are absolutely not designed to function in this manner.

Further, if a horse adducts its limbs very much, it is more than likely going to interfere with its lateral pair. Especially if the horse is conformed such that it is predisposed to wing-in.

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:04 AM

Now I'm off to trim: 9 minis and a draft horse.

Go forth with my thanks('cause I don't have to do them :) ) and my blessing('cause you're willing to trim them :) ).

grayarabpony

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:12 AM

Ummmm, the horse's limbs and musculature are not designed for abduction(unless of course you are confusing adduction/abduction with extension and flexion). Because of the type of joints involved and the way the limbs are attached, especially in front, there is the potential for minimal abduction. The hind limbs, although they can be forcefully/externally abducted, are absolutely not designed to function in this manner.

Well, they can... Haven't you ever seen a horse reach over with one fore hoof and scratch the coronet band of the other hoof? Pretty funny. :)

BornToRide

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Rick Burten http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3914893#post3914893)
Ummmm, the horse's limbs and musculature are not designed for abduction(unless of course you are confusing adduction/abduction with extension and flexion). Because of the type of joints involved and the way the limbs are attached, especially in front, there is the potential for minimal abduction. The hind limbs, although they can be forcefully/externally abducted, are absolutely not designed to function in this manner.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:, yeah, see how little you really know but you pretend you do?! All limbs adduct and abduct or else sideway movement would not be possible.

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:53 AM

:lol::lol::lol::lol:, yeah, see how little you really know but you pretend you do?! All limbs adduct and abduct or else sideway movement would not be possible.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "Because of the type of joints involved and the way the limbs are attached, especially in front, there is the potential for minimal abduction." Or was that statement to difficult for you to comprehend?

Further, sideways movement in the horse is not a primary function of the animal. In fact, they gave up that ability in order to have greater ability for forward(and rearward) linear movement. Further, any sideways movement is more likely to take the form of a spin, a push-off, or some limb adduction than it is to be a true sideways movement where the limb(s) first(or only) abduct. So, while your understanding of movement in humans may(or may not)be encyclopedic, you have demonstrated and continue to demonstrate that your knowledge and understanding of movement(s) of the horse barely rises to a 1st grade primer level.

Of course, in your little world, an adjustment to the diet would probably overcome the limitations placed on the horse by its physical form and normal function(s).

By the way BTR, since you believe that a horse's limbs readily and easily abduct, I've got some horses with whom I'd like to see you prove your statement. All of these horses are sound. all of these horses are barefoot, all of these horses are in good physical condition, and these horses provide a representative sample of a variety of breeds and disciplines/job descriptions.

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain why a cutting horse moves the way it does when it has to move sideways while working a cow.

Like I said, "It is often better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:56 AM

Haven't you ever seen a horse reach over with one fore hoof and scratch the coronet band of the other hoof? Pretty funny. :)

Sure I have. and as I originally noted, "Because of the type of joints involved and the way the limbs are attached, especially in front, there is the potential for minimal abduction."

ASB Stars

Feb. 28, 2009, 01:18 PM

Sure I have. and as I originally noted, "Because of the type of joints involved and the way the limbs are attached, especially in front, there is the potential for minimal abduction."

Just for grins...can you tell me whether it is the joint, or the limb that will, potentially, be "abducted"?? Errr..minimally? :lol:

grayarabpony

Feb. 28, 2009, 01:22 PM

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 02:01 PM

Just for grins...can you tell me whether it is the joint, or the limb that will, potentially, be "abducted"?? Errr..minimally? :lol:

Sure. Since the joint is part of the limb, it follows that it abducts along with the limb.

Do you have a differing view?

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 02:16 PM

Except in the case of Half Pass.

oops

No oops about it. When the horse performs a half pass it is moving more forward than laterally(ie: diagonally forward). The lateral movement occurs as the horse pushes with the foot/feet on the side opposite the lateral direction of travel/diagonal and the momentum that is instigated moves the horse in the forward-lateral(diagonal) direction.

In a true side pass, the horse initiates lateral movement by adducting to or slightly across its center line planting those two feet(one front, one hind) and then moving the opposite lateral pair back to a position of normal stasis/stance to support its body. In essence, the horse is better able to adduct its limbs than it is able to abduct its limbs.

If you doubt this, pick up a hind limb, bring it forward and then push it under the horse's body. Then try to pull it away from its normal position to the outside. Then, extend the leg reward and repeat. Place one hind leg on a block of wood that lifts the hind end such that the opposite hind is clear of the ground. Pull(abduct) that leg directly to the side. Note the results.

Do the same with the front limb. However, when you do, and the leg is flexed at the knee, you have to grasp the leg at the knee before you try to abduct the leg. Next, place a wooden block under one front hoof, keeping the limb straight. Now, go around to the other front limb, grasp it at the hoof or pastern and pull it directly sideways(I'd advise you to do this gently but use as much force as you choose). Note the range of motion in abduction.

Get back to me with the results.

grayarabpony

Feb. 28, 2009, 07:17 PM

I'm not going to do that nonsense. :lol:

If a horse only had minimal movement toward the midline, it could not halfpass, or do any lateral work.

Feb. 28, 2009, 09:24 PM

http://www.classicaldressage.net/members/images/halfpass1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Odette_Half-pass.jpg/180px-Odette_Half-pass.jpg
http://www.cheval-haute-ecole.com/appuyerBer1.JPG

Rick Burten

Feb. 28, 2009, 09:31 PM

If a horse only had minimal movement toward the midline, it could not halfpass, or do any lateral work.
Next time, try reading for content in context with comprehension. I noted that the horse can adduct its limbs more easily than it can abduct its limbs. Most all lateral work occurs when the horse is able to adduct and at the same time hollow its ribcage away from the leg/seat/rein aid.

Whether or not you engage in the suggested exercises/experiment is of less concern to me than is the price of tea in China. Your unwillingness to participate is more indicative of your mind set and knowledge(or lack there of) base than anything else. Heaven forfend that you might actually learn something.

Perhaps you should start with a review of basic equine anatomy and how the parts function together bio-mechanically. I suggest you pay particular attention to limb form and function as it relates to linear movement. Once that is accomplished, you could move on to actual observation of horses in motion. Before you do that however, you might also want to review some basic physics concepts, particularly those involving momentum, vector forces, levers and the like.

matryoshka

Feb. 28, 2009, 10:58 PM

I thought I had 9 minis to trim. Turns out there were 10: one of the mares had foaled and they wanted to surprise me. Very cute filly, born 9 days ago. Already needed a trim. What a fun day! I love foals!

clm08

Feb. 28, 2009, 11:38 PM

I did not go thru the pages and pages of posts related to this thread, but my experience with my 2 barefoot Arabs is that I've never had the problem of wearing out the hooves faster than they grow. Granted, they don't live on sandy or rocky terrain, but they work regularly on a sandy arena (flatwork, some jumping), go on trail rides over a variety of terrain, and one of them is an eventer. Funny enough, last summer we got a bunch of free hoof supplement at some of the events and tried it on the non-eventer horse for about 3 weeks. His hooves were growing so fast, I had to take him off of the supplement to save on trimming costs! So if anyone does have a problem of horse wearing out hooves faster than they grow, I highly recommend Finish Line Hoof Supplement.

arena run

Mar. 1, 2009, 12:52 AM

ASB Stars

Mar. 1, 2009, 08:50 AM

Sure. Since the joint is part of the limb, it follows that it abducts along with the limb.

Do you have a differing view?

Yep, my view is that a play on words is a way of lightening things up, and that people CAN take themselves to seriously.

I remember haring Barbara Walters talking about the fact that the funniest people she ever interviewed were also the most intelligent. My point being that you can be bright, and funny, at the same time. Well, if you actually ARE.

However, carry on.

BornToRide

Mar. 1, 2009, 10:34 AM

where a horse had worn back his toes "to nubs". I will try to find the link - but the photo clearly showed the heels very high (hinds) and IIRC it seemed the horse was wearing/dragging his toes in the abrasive arena surface.
This is another good example how statements like this are generated - the involved do not know what a healthy and balanced hoof actually looks like and then assume the horse cannot go barefoot because he wears excessively somewhere, when in fact bad hoof form is really the root cause here, along with other possible factors.

matryoshka

Mar. 1, 2009, 10:47 AM

I just read Grayarabs post about what part of the foot is showing excessive wear. I'd also like to respond to the part about an unbalanced trim being the culprit.

1. From the horses I've seen with this problem, the area of excessive wear depends upon the conformational issues the horse is having. For example, one mare I referred to Brian Purrington had bilateral club feet. The walls at the toe didn't exactly wear as much as they pried away at the toe, allowing the sole under P3 wear to the point where the horse was sore. In the case of the bow-legged Belgian mare, the wall and sole wore down on the lateral sides of both feet. On the Friesian, the toe and sole under the coffin bone wore down to the point where the mare shortened her stride. In her case, since her conformation is decent, I can't account for the excessive wear. Trimmers here at COTH seem to think she had heel pain and was landing toe first in order to creat such a wear pattern. Since whenever I watch the mare move, she lands heel first or flat, I'd disagree.

2. Conformation of the limb is going to affect how the hoof lands, what bears the most pressure when the horse is grazing, and therefore, how it wears. In some cases I've seen, the hoof seems to be loaded more on one side or the other, allowing the opposite wall to grow excessively, tipping the foot farther and farther during the trim cycle. I've noticed this especially in pigeon toed horses. I can't correct limb deviations in adult horses, and I'm not even qualified to do such a thing in a foal. Serious limb deviations in young foals should be worked on by individuals who are experienced in helping such things improve. JMHO.

3. According to BTR, soft-tissue issues may also affect how a hoof wears. I'm guessing that if there is a problem in the soft tissue, it can affect the horse's posture, which would lead to uneven wear. Proof of this may be found in horses who are recovering from an injury. The support foot changes in response to the excess load. Whether this becomes permanent or not may be a function of what type of help the horse receives. This last item is simply my own opinion based on observation and listening to what others have to say--it makes sense to me.

4. Even the best trim on a horse with limb deviations cannot prevent excessive wear in areas that receive the most load. Whether or not this leads to soreness for a particular horse is probably dependent on a number of factors, such as the horse's weight, how he moves, the terrain he lives on, and his work load. Sometimes a horse is doing just fine barefoot until his workload increases to the point that uneven wear leads to soreness. In such cases I give the owner whatever options I think are available (including boots and Sole Guard), and they get to decide what works best for them and their horse. In animals who compete at sports other than distance riding, they are likely to opt for shoes. That is okay by me.

BornToRide

Mar. 1, 2009, 10:58 AM

1. From the horses I've seen with this problem, the area of excessive wear depends upon the conformational issues the horse is having. For example, one mare I referred to Brian Purrington had bilateral club feet. The walls at the toe didn't exactly wear as much as they pried away at the toe, allowing the sole under P3 wear to the point where the horse was sore. In the case of the bow-legged Belgian mare, the wall and sole wore down on the lateral sides of both feet. On the Friesian, the toe and sole under the coffin bone wore down to the point where the mare shortened her stride. In her case, since her conformation is decent, I can't account for the excessive wear. Trimmers here at COTH seem to think she had heel pain and was landing toe first in order to creat such a wear pattern. Since whenever I watch the mare move, she landed heel first or flat, I'd disagree.

Without seeing photos of the horses I still have to question though whether or not those horses were actually trimmed correctly and frequently enough accordinng to the wear problem they have, because I see in over 90% of the cases that horses who have problems like this are NOT trimmed correctly. IOW, like the heels are not taken down enough or the overgrown wall is not trimmed enough. It is like some hoof care professionals have trouble seeing where the imbalance is coming from and seem to trim every hoof the same.

Most horses I trim have uneven wear to some degree because of how they wear their hooves, but generally the wear is not excessive. The most excessive uneven wear I see in horses that have more major conformational issues, like the little bow legged minis I trim, or the one Arab that did the splits early in life and since then has hind end issues that make him drag his toes more.

matryoshka

Mar. 1, 2009, 11:01 AM

You don't have to believe me. You will see for yourself in time with enough experience. I also realize that you don't trust my evaluation of a horse's conformation or my trimming skill. So be it. Can't convince you, won't try. No point in arguing about it.

BornToRide

Mar. 1, 2009, 11:08 AM

Did you regularly trim all these horses?

matryoshka

Mar. 1, 2009, 11:10 AM

Most horses I trim have uneven wear to some degree because of how they wear their hooves, but generally the wear is not excessive. The most excessive uneven wear I see in horses that have more major conformational issues, like the little bow legged minis I trim, or the one Arab that did the splits early in life and since then has hind end issues that make him drag his toes more.Scale these guys up to draft size and see what happens. Do you trim any drafts? I hope you read that I noted a horse's size makes a difference. I like to keep the minis on a short trim cycle because they don't weigh enough to wear their feet down. This is especially a problem in mini foals--their feet grow about the same amount of hoof in 4 weeks as any other breed, but that represents a much bigger proportion of the overall hoof length. I'm going back in 3 weeks to retrim the week-old foal I just did yesterday. Otherwise, she's going to get points that will make it tough for her hoof to break over in the front.

After seeing how fast their feet grow in relation to the overall hoof length, and how quickly they get points on their toes, I no longer wonder why so many minis have crooked legs as adults. So far, last year's mini foal still has decent legs. She was born with good legs, and I intend to help them stay that way.

Every case of excessive wear I've brought up so far has been on large horses, except for the mare with bilateral club feet--and her feet were a bit small for her size. I've got more examples of weird wear patterns based on limb deviations, but I stuck to the ones where the horses became foot sore. The jury is still out on the dressage horse with off-set knees. I don't know exactly what is causing the lameness, unless it is the advanced case of sidebone.

BornToRide

Mar. 1, 2009, 11:19 AM

Yes, I had one draft that had similar medio-lateral imbalance as I mentioned above. He had some soundness issues because of it and improved already after the first trim I gave him. Unfortunately I could not continue to monitor his progress , as the boarding stable closed and the owner moved him out of my area closer to home.

matryoshka

Mar. 1, 2009, 11:27 AM

Did you regularly trim all these horses?Once they get shoes, they are under the care of the farrier, so I don't keep trimming them. In the case of the Friesian, I'm trimming her again now that her shoes have been removed. I had been sharing that account with a good farrier who did not hesitate to help further my education in good trimming. Now that all of their horses are barefoot, I'm trimming all 9.

I've got a collection of pics of limb deviations I've encountered in the past 4 years (when I've remembered to bring my camera). Usually I send them on to Rick Burten, who is a leg man. :D

matryoshka

Mar. 1, 2009, 11:43 AM

When you've had a chance to rehab a banana-shaped hoof on a draft who also had canker, we'll talk. It is no fun training adult drafts that come from Amish farms to accept hoof care, especially when they have canker. The first time I saw him his heels on one foot had a difference of two inches, and the longer side folded under the foot as he walked. Once the canker was gone and we'd gotten rid of all funky growth from having been neglected (I call the way drafts are trotted down the road lugging farm equipment an "Amish trim"), we were down to maintaining the hoof below joints that deviated medially from the fetlock down. Horse landed hard at the lateral toe quarter, no matter what we did--kept sheering that bolt off the hospital plate. When he'd been free of the canker for several months, he was adopted out and somebody else took over his hoof care.

BTW, even when he still had canker, he was much more comfortable after the application of a bar shoe that stabilized the sheared heel. He wore those shoes for two cycles, then we were able to remove them. Farrier had to hand make the shoes. With good trimming, his foot was changing shape so rapidly that the shoe barely fit at the time of the refit.