Continued frustration w/ Purina

[monstrpony]

I just got an email from Equine.com touting the new, re-formulated Purina feeds. Lots of words about how great and scientific the formulation is, but still no listing of ingredients. It says the feeds contain all necessary vit & min, but still no listing. It DOES mention that instead of plain molasses, they have added oil to the molasses for a "higher fat molasses". A step in the right direction, but Hello?? Higher fat molasses???

It's great that they do all of the research that they do and have such wonderful facilities. Could they possibly share some *science* that comes out of all of that research, instead of just a lot of self-congratulatory verbage that gives us *no idea* what we would be feeding our horses, should we choose to use their products??

Or is their web presence just really not user-friendly, and I'm missing the obvious?

[Daydream Believer]

No I don't think you are missing anything. Purina is one of the worst companies for consistency in labeling and they have a lot of marketing power behind them. I think they'd be my second to the last choice of feed companies if I as going to go that route again!

[Texarkana]

I think the sad "obvious" is that too many horse owners and professionals just don't care about what's in their feed. They're more concerned with who recommends it. :sigh:

I'm also not a Purina fan...

[RiverBendPol]

I wouldn't feed Purina if it was free:cool:

[ChocoMare]

I'd never feed Purina either due to the facts stated above. Alas, I firmly believe that Purina markets themselves to the "generic" horse owner that doesn't care to self-educate. They just open a bag, scoop out whatever and give it to their horse.

It's companies like Seminole, Triple Crown, Nutrena and Equipride that realize people are getting smart....taking the time to educate themselves about good/better nutrition for their horse, realizing that high sugar/starch feeds are inappropriate and wanting a better alternative that will still meet the horse's nutritional & caloric needs.

For my mares, it's EquiPride all the way.

[BuddyRoo]

One of the issues I had when I had my horse on Purina Equine Senior was that it seemed like there was no consistency. IE: Maybe it was meeting the same "requirements" but they were changing ingredients a lot....

It had been recommended by my vet...so that's what I fed. Until I got fed up and started doing my research. That's when I swapped everyone to Nutrena.

Unfortunately, it's not that easy to get here. Before my old man passed, I had to drive quite some distance each week to get his Nutrena Senior. Wish it was carried by more places.

[LKF]

I can't say that we ever had any complaints about Purina. They've always supplied our race horses and eventers with good quality feed. Have you gone to their web site? http://horse.purinamills.com/

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I have friends that love Purina and they are VERY horse educated! I don't think you can say that Purina users don't know better or care...

I personally don't like that they don't fix their formula. I found a Kent dealer (Kent mills produces Blue Seal and Triple Crown around here among others) and she was able to order the Triple Crown Senior feed I wanted.

[Daydream Believer]

One of the issues I had when I had my horse on Purina Equine Senior was that it seemed like there was no consistency. IE: Maybe it was meeting the same "requirements" but they were changing ingredients a lot....



Up until recently I had to feed Strategy to some of my client owned horses...the client insisted on it. I finally changed her mind and her mares on are my custom program but I was shocked at how different it would look from store to store and batch to batch. Different colors...one was tan, one was greenish, another dark brown...and it was quite clear that they were changing a lot. Their labels are vague for a reason...they will substitute the cheapest ingredients they can find as long as they meet what their vague label says in nutrients.

[monstrpony]

I'm terrifically happy with the Triple Crown I'm feeding now, but I drive an hour each way to get it. The feed store in town is a Purina dealer, and the owner has been very good to me over the years, and I'd like to be able to buy my feed from him (and help him stay in business--he's a small-town farm & garden supply who just had a Lowe's spring up next door).

Alas, I can't compromise on feed when I have no idea what is in it. I also resent the fact that when the local guy wants to carry a new premium Purina feed, such as Ultium, he not only has to undergo special "training" first (which ends up amounting to a visit from the local rep, but delays availability until the rep deigns to make a visit) and then has to pay an extra fee to be able to carry it. Same story when people starting asking about the Wellsolve feeds. Then I see this announcement about the reformulated feeds (complete with high fat molasses!) and thought, maybe, just maybe, Purina finally broke the code.

But, no.

I think those who said that Purina is most interested in catering to the less knowlegable horse owners are spot on. Sort of the State Line Tack of feed companies.

[quicksilverponies]

I have been feeding Purina feeds to my horses and ponies for over 40 yrs and have never had a problem. If I have a specific question about a formulation, I call a rep or send an email and they are happy to respond. There is something to be said for years and years of research and knowledge.

[lauriep]

They don't fix their formula or guarantee ingredients. We feed Legends from Southern States and are delighted with it. With HB babies it is ALL about condition,and we get it from this feed.

[veebug22]

Wait -- just go over to the Ultium thread. There are pleeennntttyyy of educated horse owners/professionals out there feeding Purina. I've mostly fed Poulin and Triple Crown in the past. Still have one horse on TC Senior and really liked the TC Complete. Never liked Purina for a variety of reasons. But, after much reading and talking to others, I've switched my mare to Ultium, and WOW! She's seeming more settled, quieter, putting/keeping weight on with less grain, and all of a sudden her topline is filling out nicely, and she has always been one of those horses that, even when in regular work and pleasantly plump, never develops the topline I'd like to see along her neck. True, I don't like the iffy breakdown on each grain. I wish I knew more about the amounts/percentages of each element, like Triple Crown. TC's analysis info is awesome. That said, I'm pretty impressed with Ultium right now, and I have several friends with high performance horses (mostly race horses) that feed it and love it. Would it be my first choice to have in the barn? Definitely not. It was like an internal debate of whether or not I was willing to put my dislike of Purina to the side and give Ultium a try. I'm glad I did, though. That said, if it weren't for my mare being a bit of a special case, I would be feeding her TC or Poulin too. Have fed Purina grains at barns I worked at, mostly Strategy, and wasn't impressed.

[Cherry]

Gee, I remember when Purina was the "cutting edge" in nutrition! :yes: ;) I still remember when they came out with their "pelleted, complete" Horse Chow in the late 50's.... :winkgrin: That was back when no one else was doing pelleted feeds or hay stretcher pellets....

I have to say that there are plenty of knowledgeable people who feed Purina products. I, myself, have used their straight grains and their Omolene products at various times. Their straight grains are top quality, beautiful to behold and I'd have no qualms about using them again if I felt I needed to! :yes: :winkgrin:

I'm less than impressed with Strategy and their other products though. I used to feed my poor little Cushing's pony their Senior formula--that was one of the worst things I could have fed him!!!! I simply don't understand why these feed companies toss molasses into their Senior feeds (something that old horses simply should not have) and then pat themselves on the back and advertise it as a good thing for senior horses!!!! :mad:

So, I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater! There are things I like and dislike about almost every feed manufacturer out there. ;)

You have to understand too that it went from "Ralston Purina" in the beginning and then the horse feed part of the brand was sold to someone else at some point years ago. That could have something to do with the quality of the product.

[AKB]

I am very happy with Purina. We feed the Enriched 12 pellets, and a few handfuls of Ultium. When I have had questions, I have talked with a nutritionist at Purina. Since I work in human health care, I feel like I am a reasonably educated and demanding consumer.

I will not feed grain from the local mill that produces cattle feed as well as horse feed. I am not willing to take a chance of poisoning my horses with cattle feed additives. That happened once to a number of horses in the county where we were living. We were very lucky that we were feeding Purina, and did not get a bag of the contaminated feed.

[War Admiral]

Haha, Cherry's right, I do remember when they were cutting edge.

That said, I feel your pain, Monstr. I'm in a situation where I would actually like to TRY Ultium, but I'm guessing that distributorship fee must be pretty high - since NONE of the Purina dealers nearby carry it. I'd actually have to drive even farther to get Ultium than I do Triple Crown! :lol:

Now, I would *think* dealers not carrying it would sort of defeat the purpose of even offering a high-end feed, wouldn't you? Purina's not gonna break even on all that research from DEALER fees; they're gonna break even from SALES. Hellooooo Purina??? Waive the darn fee already and put this stuff in everybody's home town!

[Boomer]

It's companies like Seminole, Triple Crown, Nutrena and Equipride that realize people are getting smart....taking the time to educate themselves about good/better nutrition for their horse, realizing that high sugar/starch feeds are inappropriate and wanting a better alternative that will still meet the horse's nutritional & caloric needs.

For my mares, it's EquiPride all the way.

Seminole is wonderful but I can't get it in Mississippi. Nor Triple Crown.

Tried Equipride but of my 3 horses only 1 ate it without question, 1 would pick at it but given enough time would eat it, and the last one would only eat a very small amount - if there was any more than that small amount in his feed I would end up putting in the manure pile the next am.

I'm feeding Nutrena's Farr XTN currently - one of the few fixed formulas from Nutrena. Most are a least cost formulation. Have been happy with it thus far. Also feed BP & flax & Theracell Optimum. There is not a Nutrena dealer nearby that will get XTN - so I drive 1 hour to pick up several bags. My horses get very little grain so a sack will last around a month.

[monstrpony]

The Purnia mill that my local guy buys from stopped making Horse Chow, which I liked as a feed extender when the hay situation was so bad. They said to feed Horseman's Edge instead, and indeed, the protein/fat/fiber breakdown of HE is very similar to HC. I have been using that instead. Two months ago, I emailed the Purina contact from their web site to ask what the actual NSC for HE was. I got an immediate reply that they were swamped with requests, and would get to mine ASAP. Two months ago ...

I believe I was told that the dealer fee for stocking Ultium was something like $150, and was a one-time thing. But the dealers do have to go through a training, which is supposed to be an all-day thing; out local rep is either stretched too thin or "otherwise" and it ended up just being a visit. The fee was explained as the cost of all of the "materials", flyers and the special stand that they go on in the store. I just felt really bad that my local guy went through all of that and the Ultium didn't work out for my EPSM/Cushings horse. It does seem to work well for some horses, not so well for others, which is not unusual with feeds. That's why it's a shame that smaller dealers have to go through so much to be able to stock the feed. I heard that Purina is doing the same thing with the Wellsolve feeds; I bet there are a number of smaller dealers who are "once bit, twice shy" about this. We, as consumers, can't even get our hands on a bag tag, which would have more info than they put on their web site. And I just can't help wondering what the big secret is...

Strange way to do business.

[Boomer]

I believe I was told that the dealer fee for stocking Ultium was something like $150, and was a one-time thing.

We, as consumers, can't even get our hands on a bag tag, which would have more info than they put on their web site. And I just can't help wondering what the big secret is....

Maybe they don't want to have a feed tag listed that is: grain by-product, forage by-product, distiller's by-product, et. ?

Nutrena probably does stocking fee thing too - my local store won't carry XTN for some reason. Won't even fool with ordering it for me.

[Texarkana]

When your vet recommends you a specific feed product, I think it's prudent to keep in mind that Purina scratches a lot of backs in the field of veterinary medicine...

[Katy Watts]

When you Google 'AAEP Purina' it comes up 1680 times. Purina sponsors a lot of their annual convention.

This survey may be of interest. Vets recommend Purina Sr. above all others. Sponsorship is very effective marketing.

http://www.feeddealer.com/Library/AAEP_Survey_Results_12032008.pdf

[sidepasser]

I feed ADM feed, the senior for Aloha and the Gro-Strong for the two young horses. All are in great shape. It is a forage based feed and is about the same price as Nutrena feeds or Purina.

I love the fixed formula, ingredients right on the tag. Of course when those ingredient prices go up as commodities, I pay more..but at least I know what I am getting.

Very easy to deal with, can call their horse care number and get questions answered, or send an email.

on this page: http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/feed/Pages/Equine.aspx
there is a pdf file that has a ton of feed ingredients listed and some interesting information about them. Look on the right hand side of the page, under the feed ingredients booklet pdf and there is a link to their product pages (also says request free sample).

I feed primarily coastal hay to the young girls, but Aloha gets Sr. feed with beet pulp, and alfalfa pellets or cubes (depending on her mood that day)..lol. She went from a scarecrow to a Miss Priss on the Sr. feed. I believe all the ADM feed for horses is forage based first. Makes sense to me, horses were designed to graze.

At any rate with as many feed companies around, I prefer to use one that lists the ingredients, goes into great detail about what is in their feed and doesn't switch ingredients depending on costs.

[TheOrangeOne]

My feed dealer at home says that he was required to go to this long seminar before he could sell Ultium. I was always happy with it and the amplify nuggets that I added. I think the new feeds have amplify pre mixed, which is mostly rice bran and flax and a few other things.

[gabz]

Monstr wrote: I just felt really bad that my local guy went through all of that and the Ultium didn't work out for my EPSM/Cushings horse.

Why would you give your EPSM/CUshings horse that feed? It is not formulated for either of those conditions. It is formulated for High Performance horses. Eventers, reiners, cutting horses, etc.

Cherry wrote: I used to feed my poor little Cushing's pony their Senior formula--that was one of the worst things I could have fed him!!!! I simply don't understand why these feed companies toss molasses into their Senior feeds (something that old horses simply should not have)

Why would you feed your Cushings horse Senior formula? Who says molasses is the worst thing for senior horses? I say it depends on the horse. And how is this a feed manufacturer's fault? Does it say on the package or advertisements that it is formulated for horses with Cushings? If it doesn't.. then I don't see how it is their fault.

But these are exactly the reason Purina wants their dealers to have training. So that the retailers understand the pros and cons of each feed. So that if a customer comes in and asks for a low starch feed, or something to fatten their horse up, or something for more energy for a high performance horse, the dealer KNOWs which feed will do that.

SO far as advertising / marketing... 95% of advertising is hype. Doesn't matter if it's cars, computers, appliances, TV shows, etc. it's hype. Purina isn't the only one that does it. Purina isn't the only company that sponsors vets. Look at the drug companies. Heck - my sister works at a vet clinic and she earns points from Merial for every Merial product she completes a transaction on. Those points earn her $$$ on a credit card. Does that make Merial products BAD?

Purina does not use least cost in their premium feeds. I don't know why people keep saying that. For the premium feeds they use ingredients that give them a guarenteed nutrition. When grains are harvested their nutrient values vary. - Which is the very same reason that many nutrionists urge owners with metabolic-challenged horse to test every batch of hay. Because every batch will be different based on growing and harvest conditions. How many articles has Katy Watts written after researching the time of day hay is harvested and how that alone can increase or decrease sugar content. It also affects protein levels, calcium levels, yada yada yada.

Not every crop of corn has the exact same amount of Vit A, or phosphorus, or copper or zinc. Not every crop or shipment of soybeans or oats. Many companies use Book Values. That is, a median value for certain raw materials. So the color of the product and the ingredients may be the same, but it could be higher in something this batch and lower in another batch depending on the nutrient values of the raw materials.

It's seems that many of you do not have Purina HOW clinics in your areas to attend to learn more about many aspects of horse ownership. The clinics that I have attended are not just about Purina feed. I've attended some with farriers, vets, trainers, 4H leaders, pasture seed suppliers; fence contractors, etc. as keynote speakers. I missed the one about all types of hay.

I talk to different feed suppliers/manufacturers at Expos. They provide samples for me to try with my horses. They provide more literature.

So if you don't like a product - that's fine. But don't bash it and spread rumors about the product.

Do your research and if a customer service person doesn't call you back - try again - why wait 2 months? Must be you don't want the info very badly. Or use email. That's your bad for not getting the info that you want. If I want to know about features on a certain brand of truck and I don't get an answer right away - you better believe I'll call again and again until I get my answer.

[monstrpony]

Why would you give your EPSM/CUshings horse that feed? It is not formulated for either of those conditions. It is formulated for High Performance horses. Eventers, reiners, cutting horses, etc.


Mine was a bit of an oddball; he was actually not an easy keeper, and, at the time, Ultium was one of the few available (in my area) feeds that was relatively nutritionally rich without being impossibly high in sugars. Ultium was fairly new at the time, and it was suggested that I try it. It did not improve the horse's situation and there were other things that did a better job. Trying Ultium was not a wild hare; I had considerable guidance in dealing with an unusual situation.

I appreciate that Purina uses a guaranteed nutrition approach in formulating their premium feeds. That's a good thing, and the variability in the appearance of the feeds that can result does not bother me. Not knowing what is IN the feeds is what bothers me; that, and the practice of making it difficult for my local store to stock the premium feeds.

[appaloosalady]

I've tried a lot of different feeds for my 27 yr old mare and Purina Senior is the only one that keeps her weight where it should be. She loves it and it keeps her healthy, so it is what I feed. I have also had incredible results with Ultium. If a product works, I don't care who makes it.

[gabz]

I appreciate that Purina uses a guaranteed nutrition approach in formulating their premium feeds. That's a good thing, and the variability in the appearance of the feeds that can result does not bother me. Not knowing what is IN the feeds is what bothers me; that, and the practice of making it difficult for my local store to stock the premium feeds.

Here's what is in Feeds: This is from another thread where this was discussed and several people contributed, myself included.

To expand on what gabz posted, here are the "official" definitions of the collective names.
From 21 CFR 501.110 Animal feed labeling; collective names for feed ingredients:
Each collective name referred to in this paragraph may be used for the purpose of labeling where one or more of the ingredients listed for that collective name are present. The animal feed ingredients listed under each of the collective names are the products defined by the Association of American Feed Control Officials. The collective names are as follows:
(1) Animal protein products include one or more of the following: Animal products, marine products, and milk products.
(2) Forage products include one or more of the following: Alfalfa meals, entire plant meals, hays, and stem meals.
(3) Grain products include one or more of the following: Barley, grain sorghums, maize (corn), oats, rice, rye, and wheat.
(4) Plant protein products include one or more of the following: Algae meals, coconut meals (copra), cottonseed meals, guar meal, linseed meals, peanut meals, safflower meals, soybean meals, sunflower meals, and yeasts.
(5) Processed grain byproducts include one or more of the following: Brans, brewers dried grains, distillers grains, distillers solubles, flours, germ meals, gluten feeds, gluten meals, grits, groats, hominy feeds, malt sprouts, middlings, pearled, polishings, shorts, and wheat mill run.
(6) Roughage products include one or more of the following: Cobs, hulls, husks, pulps, and straws.

(Compliance Policy Guide 7126.08) http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpgvet/cpg665-100.html
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/animalfeed_info.htm#ingredients
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13110
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush...SI-3919web.pdf
This is from Oklahoma State - description of horse feeds:
Quote:
Grain products are grains which have received some type of chemical or physical processing (e.g. ground, cracked, flaked) before formulation.
Plant protein products are used to increase the concentration of protein.
Processed grain by-products are secondary products produced by processing grain that provide a variety of nutrients, and include ingredients such as wheat middlings and bran.
Similarly, roughage products are produced from processing roughage and can supply a variety of ingredients. Roughage products include ingredients such as soybean hulls and beet pulp.

So. One manufacturer may list wheat middlings while another feed manufacturer may list processed grain by-products but use wheat middlings. Or, maybe the next time they use bran because it meets the nutritional analysis of the feed.

I have seen threads here on COTH that discuss pros and cons of any of those. And... I bet you that Processed Grain By-products are in the treats you feed and the supplements you pay so much money for.

Car dealerships have to jump through hoops. Trailer dealers. So do many, many tack stores. Go ask a big tack store what it took them to carry the lines of tack and equipment they have. You have to meet standards and guidelines and $$$ to sell certain brands of tack, saddles, clothing, etc. Some brands won't let you sell their product within 100 miles of another retailer. Some saddle manufacturers require their retailers to attend saddle building and fitting classes - on their own dime.

Personally, I would rather buy from someone who been through training and knows their products than from someone who makes it up as they go along... and we all know there are retailers in the horse industry that do that.

[Touchstone Farm]

I've fed Purina products for over 10 years and have never had a problem with it. Have used their Omolene line, used Athlete to top-dress for an advanced eventer, have used Ultium and now use Amplify for one mare. Never had a consistency problem, and my horses (including my GP mare) do well on it.

I also appreciate that I can buy it anywhere, so when I'm showing or in training out of my home turf, I know it's easy to find and my horse's feed program isn't disrupted.

I also like that they sponsor so many events and shows. A lot of these events couldn't happen without sponsorships.

Guess I'm one of those ignorant owners. :-)

[monstrpony]

I've fed Purina products for over 10 years and have never had a problem with it. Have used their Omolene line, used Athlete to top-dress for an advanced eventer, have used Ultium and now use Amplify for one mare. Never had a consistency problem, and my horses (including my GP mare) do well on it.

I also appreciate that I can buy it anywhere, so when I'm showing or in training out of my home turf, I know it's easy to find and my horse's feed program isn't disrupted.

I also like that they sponsor so many events and shows. A lot of these events couldn't happen without sponsorships.



These are all reasons why I wish I could feel confident using Purina feeds. Why I am *frustrated* that they feel the need to be different from those companies who are more forthcoming with basic info (not ad copy) about their feeds.

I have long been vocal about the acceptability of by-product feed components. I just want to know *which ones* my horse is eating!

And I want it to be easy for my feed guy to get the products I want. He is NOT interested in becoming a horsefeed expert. I have actually offered to be the one to get the training for his business, and been willing to consult with other customers; he recognizes that I know more about feeding horses than he, while he knows far more about business, feeding cattle, and feedstuff and fertilizer markets.

I will admit to being slightly jaded, as I had just switched back to Omolene when my EPSM horse went critical (because of that change) and was finally diagnosed. So, my experience w/ using Purina feeds hasn't always been a positive one, tho it did precipitate my educating myself about what we feed horses. I feel Purina has been a bit slow to address the needed changes in horse feed products to address issues like EPSM, IR, Cushings. These things *frustrate* me, because my life would be easier if I could be a happy Purina customer.

[twohotponies]

I am a little confused. You say that you are unhappy because you cant get information on the ingredients in the feed? There is a list on every bag of grain. In the past when I have had a question about different feeds I went to the feed store, turned the bags over and read the ingredients list.

Currently I feed Omolene 200, Omolene Senior, and Strategy with good effects all around.

[gabz]

so the bottom line, as you stated, is YOUR frustration with a feed company that doesn't suit your needs or wishes.

There is nothing wrong with their feed then, correct? It's just that you expect other things from a feed company, correct?
Then find a diff brand that provides you the answers and marketing you want.

There are dozens of companies that I dislike because of their presentation. I just go on to something else. I guess I don't understand what you want... should a feed company change their ways because a few people have trouble with how they sell their product?

Your feed dealer is an EXCELLENT example of why Purina does what it does. If he is not willing to become educated about a product... that says it all.

[gabz]

I am a little confused. You say that you are unhappy because you cant get information on the ingredients in the feed? There is a list on every bag of grain. In the past when I have had a question about different feeds I went to the feed store, turned the bags over and read the ingredients list.

Currently I feed Omolene 200, Omolene Senior, and Strategy with good effects all around.

The problem that Monstr had was that her feed store could not carry the products she was interested in because of how Purina wants to have educated retailers. Therefore, she had no access to feed tags or bag labels. I see many ads for feeds that do not list ingredients. I also have a long document from Purina that lists all the ingredients of about 10 products that I asked for. GA and ingredient list. I emailed and asked and it arrived in about 2 or 3 days.. the CSR told me it would take her a few days to compile it.

But I have seen, frequently, where folks on COTH have asked for the label ingredients of feeds and others have provided that info. I know I have many times, and I have read the ingredients list of other feeds on COTH.

I'm a satisfied customer. I've had my doubts here and there based on recalls and other situations. But I think about the size of the company and the number of employees and how things can go wrong despite the best efforts of the majority involved.

[monstrpony]

I am a little confused. You say that you are unhappy because you cant get information on the ingredients in the feed? There is a list on every bag of grain. .

The info is not on their web site.

My dealer can't get the new products without a capital outlay that he can't afford right now, and, frankly, that the customer base for high end feeds in our area won't justify.

How am I supposed to read the bag tags if I can't see them?

This really isn't that big a deal; I was just disappointed that, at the moment of introducing new feed formulations, Purina didn't get on the bandwagon of providing basic information on their new web site. That reminded me of other frustrations with Purina.

I use other feeds that I'm happy with; I just wish Purina would operate the same way the other companies do so I could give my local man some business and save some gas. (BTW, he's not unwilling to learn; he just appreciates that I know more about it going in than he does)

It really isn't that big a deal, I'm just voicing a frustration.

[PiaffeDreams]

You can call the customer service. They are extremely helpful. As someone else stated, they will send you all the documentation. You can also talk to their PhD. nutritionists.

I just switched to Purina. I'd never fed it before, but consistently loved the look of client horses who came in on it. I researched a lot, talked to many different companies and decided I liked that they keep the nutrient content the same rather than using book values. The reasons the bags of feed may look a little different is because they test the ingredients as they arrive at the mills and sometimes send them on because the ingredient will not meet the standard for the formulation.

As with all feeds its critical to have the pertinent information as to which feeds to feed which horse. Knowing the products would allow a retailer to help a consumer NOT make the grave mistakes of feeding products like Omolene to EPSM horses, or Senior to an older Cushing's horse. (I had an old horse who did marvelous on another brand of senior feed with high molasses for over 10yrs.) Some products are great for some horses and not the best idea for others. They have products for horses with metabolic issues and from what I was told did extensive testing on their herds to prove the efficacy, nutrition, and palatability. That testing made it take more time to get the product out. I know of a few people who have tried the weight control and are very happy with the results.

Right now, I'm singing the praises of Ultium. LOL

[Dirty Little Secret]

monstr I feel your pain. I know you went the Triple Crown route and are very satisfied. I'm just having a hard time convincing myself I want to drive to Waynesville again to get feed. Been there and done that. May do it again. You know I'm feeding the Ultium. My thought was that it was Purina's best feed so maybe it wasn't crap but now I'm not so sure. Tempted to go back but then again I'm tempted to quit feeding grain all together... Thinking it all through...

[monstrpony]

My vet also prefers the vit/min/probiotic package that TC uses. He also said, and others have confirmed, that the TC supplier in Waynesville doesn't always have enough turnover to keep things in stock or from outliving their expiration dates, so I go to SS in AVL once a month (oh, joy).

That said, I don't believe that Purina feeds are not good quality; it's just that after my experience w/ Monstr, I'm very particular about knowing what ingredients are in a feed, and thus my frustration with Purina. I would think that Ultium would be ideal for your guy--he's young, healthy, and he works hard. My only reservation would be that you've said he can be a bit hot, and some here have said that Ultium can be a bit hot (tho others say the opposite, it seems to be very individual). For myself, I do prefer a forage-based feed program, and TC (and Legends) seem to have good options in that direction.

[War Admiral]

I just don't get the business model where a manufacturer tells its own dealers, "You're not qualified to carry this product." That is MESSED UP.

There are 3 Purina dealers within 20 miles of me in a couple different directions. NONE of them carry Ultium. Nearest place that does is 67 miles one way.

What's the point of putting all that R&D money into a product that people would actually buy IF it were available, and then going so far out of your way to make it UNavailable? Huh, Purina?? Riddle me this.

[tri]

I've fed Strategy now for it seems like forever. My old wb mare who had Cushings was on it. One time I gave in to pressure from people that were saying some of the same stuff here, and switched her very very slowly to Seminole. She was the type of Cushings that couldn't put on weight. She went downhill so fast it was scary and then foundered. I switched her back to Strategy and she came back, thank goodness.

There are two Purina dealers in my area and both carry Ultium. I've started my two young wbs who are in work on 50/50 Strategy/Ultium and started giving Ultium to the yearlings to get them ready for the line. They are all blooming, blowing their winter coats and coming in super shiney, toplines are improving and everyone is muscling up.

[Tamara in TN]

What's the point of putting all that R&D money into a product that people would actually buy IF it were available, and then going so far out of your way to make it UNavailable? Huh, Purina?? Riddle me this.

it is the choice of each feed store if they wish to carry any product...as I remember the training for this product is so a buncha jack leg "daddy done it thata way" feedstores did not kill customers horses with erroronous information...in turn making Purina liable....

when we were a Gold Dealer for Purina, we were given very specific instructions on the suggestions we were to give regarding the feeds...even back then...this is how I know what County Acres can and can't do and what Senior is supposed to do or not do....;)

anyway...the dealers decide for themselves if the feed is worth their investment...

best

[merrygoround]

I have been feeding Purina feeds to my horses and ponies for over 40 yrs and have never had a problem. If I have a specific question about a formulation, I call a rep or send an email and they are happy to respond. There is something to be said for years and years of research and knowledge.

Me too!

And you had better believe that I am NOT in the group who doesn't know or doesn't care what is fed. I think some of you fixed formula fanatics need to do some research in just how much a "fixed formula" can vary in nutritional value because the food values in the fixed ingredients fluctuate. ;)

[gabz]

I just don't get the business model where a manufacturer tells its own dealers, "You're not qualified to carry this product." That is MESSED UP.

There are 3 Purina dealers within 20 miles of me in a couple different directions. NONE of them carry Ultium. Nearest place that does is 67 miles one way.

What's the point of putting all that R&D money into a product that people would actually buy IF it were available, and then going so far out of your way to make it UNavailable? Huh, Purina?? Riddle me this.

It's not Purina that's not making it available - it's the retailers.

On another note - I have heard that some feed manufacturers require retailers to sell enough to have adequate turnover - that is, not old product sitting around. So maybe some retailers just don't sell enough to meet the stock rotation.

Apparently some people here are not knowledgeable about some aspects of retail business.
A John Deere retailer has to follow JD rules. The technicians go to JD classes. A Ford Dealership has to be qualified BY Ford to sell Ford cars. Ford does not allow that dealership to sell other brands of NEW Cars.
Appliances. Some brands provide training for retailers, some brands don't. But they all have "rules" to follow to sell certain brands.

So, I think the fact that a feed company wants its retailers to know, clearly, about their feed, is a PLUS, in my book.

How many times here have people complained about CSRs that don't know jack about the product they sell? Or don't know where the product is, or if its waterproof or comes in other colors?

[monstrpony]

it is the choice of each feed store if they wish to carry any product...as I remember the training for this product is so a buncha jack leg "daddy done it thata way" feedstores did not kill customers horses with erroronous information...in turn making Purina liable....

when we were a Gold Dealer for Purina, we were given very specific instructions on the suggestions we were to give regarding the feeds...even back then...this is how I know what County Acres can and can't do and what Senior is supposed to do or not do....;)

anyway...the dealers decide for themselves if the feed is worth their investment...

best

Put this way, it isn't a bad system, in theory. Alas, with my Ultium experience, the "training" took about a month to happen, and ended up amounting to a cup of coffee, a slap on the back, and back down the road went the feed rep. While it may be a good system, it is also an easily flawed one, esp in areas where "daddy done it thata way" feed stores abound. Which, I will admit, mine is ... but at least he respected my wanting to follow the recommendations of nationally-recongnized vets enough to have given it a try. I'm not going to ask him to go through it again.

Yesterday, it was raining cats and dogs on my designated day to make the 100-plus mile round trip for feed. I ended up with 320 lbs of bedding pellets in the trunk of my Corolla, and 250 lb of feed in the back seat. Swimming home on the interstate was, well, interesting. Actually that's no more than two passengers and their luggage, but still. Normally, of course, I'd take the truck for a load like this, but it was raining too hard for even bedding pellet bags to survive in the truck bed, and I try to do all of my "city" errands in a single trip (including my $10 frivilous economic recovery purchase ;) ).

[GrayHorseFan#1]

I think that it is VERY important to feed a fixed formula feed. I want to know that my horses are getting the SAME feed in every bag that I buy. The guaranteed analysis is just the beginning of selecting a feed. Anyone can fulfill a "guaranteed analysis" on a tag...it's the QUALITY of the ingredients, the formulations (fixed vs. least-cost) and the QUALITY of the vitamins and minerals that make the difference. If the horse can't use the vitamins, minerals, protein, etc...what good is it? Also, digestibility is really important.
I am very happy with Buckeye Feeds:). They don't put their efforts into marketing, like Purina. They put their efforts into equine nutrition, which is all I care about. There are just too many potential problems with horses that are nutrition-related...I'm not willing to take chances.
Also, feeding LESS of a BETTER feed makes sense on all levels.

[maggini]

It may be different for Ultium because it's more aggressively advertised (and rightly so, if they're going to charge me $17.50 a freaking bag), but here is a page, accessible from the Ultium Website, that includes all the label information: http://www.ultium.com/specs.asp

I feed Ultium because my previous trainer fed Ultium. I continue to feed Ultium, despite being in an area with very reputable, local feed mills (Hallways Feeds and McCauley's, which are both somewhat big among racehorse people), because it has worked so well at keeping my horse at a reasonable weight. I think it's a good product and the ingredients and research fit the philosophy of any high-performance athletic horse feed. My horse probably doesn't fit into the high-performance athlete category all year round, but I've found that it keeps him happy and healthy despite having a history of being an underweight hard keeper and having ulcers.

I think the real problem here is the classic case of horse owners that care a lot for their animals but aren't too educated in the underlying science (not that I mean to offend anyone here). It makes sense to care a great deal about what your horse eats, but it doesn't make sense to jump to the conclusion, for example, that anything labelled "grain by-product" is bad, inconsistant, and lacking in nutrients.The nature of the classification, though, alludes to what it is- a by-prodcut from grain processing, probably then the outer part of the seed, which is high in fiber but somewhat easily digested. I can't think of any by-product that I would not feed my horse. Because Purina is a large, reputable company, I trust that their feed lives up to the federally mandated product labelling in terms of crude fiber, crude fat, crude protein, etc, and I therefore trust that any class of ingredients, whether it be wheat middlings this week and oat hulls next week, will serve its purpose in the feed in meeting the nutritional requirements set out by the NRC. Furthermore, for the complaint that Purina only defines ingredients under broad terms, Ultium defines the individual ingredients used, i.e. dried beet pulp, wheat middlings, ground soybean hulls, etc. I can't speak for any of their other feeds because I feed my horse Ultium and my barn and the farm I work for feeds McCauley's.

Oh, one more note to add- Purina is a large and reputable enough company that I don't think they'd bother to add an ingredient to a feed, i.e. a vitamin pre-mix, that's not very digestible by the horse when they have so many horse owners to answer to if they create a bad feed. Nor do I think that quality is accurately percieved by many horse owners. I feel as though people see something they know, i.e. wheat middlings, and think quality, when distiller's dried grains may on average be just as high of a quality energy-wise and even higher protein-wise. It all fits into the nutritional requirements as set out by the NRC and the analysis of feed ingredients as they come into a feed mill.

[qh10240]

We all know feed companies won't purposely send out a product that is not good for your horse. So let's say, perfect world, every feed mill cares about quality. They ALL test their ingredients for nutrition info before they put it in the products. Ok so all feed is on the same level right now. What makes one feed better than the other?

Even if you promise nutrition will meet a certain level every time, the quality of nutrients like amino acids, omega 3-6, vary greatly from ingredient to ingredient. So, by using collective terms, you are varying in quality. Overall product is still great, but deep down, nutrient levels NOT promised on the tag--NSC, Amino Acids, Omegas, etc.--are not so great.

Horses are pretty sensitive in digestion. If one source is easily digested and the other is not, AND some of the extra nutrition will vary, I will stick with fixed formulation.

Just my 2 cents.