What feed for Low Thyroid? UPDATE also IR

[SmartAlex]

My mother has two horses who have low thyroid issues. They are half brothers. Both are basically unused, and are stabled, with 8 hours of turnout each day.

She puts in her own grass hay (which she has not yet had tested for whatever...). They are both on Thyrol-L and have been healthy, sound, and not obese.

My question is what grain to feed them. The vet had suggested oats. They don't get a large amount, just enough to make them happy when the other horses who have jobs get grain. She talked to an equine dentist this week who said as far as oats go, you might as well just pour them in the manure pile. The dentist suggested a senior feed.

[deltawave]

Why do they need any particular feed because of "low thyroid issues"? They probably don't need any grain at all if they're idle and in good weight.

[EqTrainer]

Why do they need any particular feed because of "low thyroid issues"? They probably don't need any grain at all if they're idle and in good weight.

Ditto. DW's advice is better than the vet OR the dentist. Why would you feed them something high in starch (oats) or higher in sugar and NSC's (average senior feed) if they are already low thyroid?

How about just a pelleted vitamin/min supplement so you know they are getting the RDA?

[deltawave]

Well, my advice wasn't particularly focused on the evils of starch vis a vis thyroid "issues" (whatever those are) but just the general theory that idle horses don't necessarily NEED any "grain". :)

Yes, if the critters are getting depressed because "everyone else is eating and they're not" I'd go with some sort of pelleted vitamin/mineral thing.

[dgm]

I know some people here really dislike Fibregized, but that's what my vet recommended for my horse when we discovered he had somewhat low thyroid hormone levels... He's been on it for about a year now. Although when he's not in work, he just gets a handful to keep him occupied for a minute when everyone else gets fed.

[JB]

Since hypothyroidism is quite rare in horses, I find it very difficult to believe that not just one, but TWO horses have this condition *as a primary problem*.

I would be looking MUCH more likely into insulin resistance as causing the low thyroid.

And no, an IR horse does not have to be obese ;)

[EqTrainer]

Well, my advice wasn't particularly focused on the evils of starch vis a vis thyroid "issues" (whatever those are) but just the general theory that idle horses don't necessarily NEED any "grain". :)

Yes, if the critters are getting depressed because "everyone else is eating and they're not" I'd go with some sort of pelleted vitamin/mineral thing.

Mine too, but I thought I'd mention that neither of those choices are great, regardless, for a horse who already has a low thyroid and does no work. Being a doctor, I am sure you know "whatever those are" :)

Personally I have had horses who only eat once a day while others are eating twice and after a few days they don't even twitch an ear. I think this is one of those human assumptions, that they wont' get used to it/get over it. They do.

[BornToRide]

I would be looking MUCH more likely into insulin resistance as causing the low thyroid.

I would too - IR can cause low thyroid function , in which case you probably would not want to feed any grain.

And avoid soy - soy interferes with thyroid function as well.

[EqTrainer]

Since hypothyroidism is quite rare in horses, I find it very difficult to believe that not just one, but TWO horses have this condition *as a primary problem*.

I would be looking MUCH more likely into insulin resistance as causing the low thyroid.

And no, an IR horse does not have to be obese ;)

Genetics. And.. possibly.. standing in a stall for 16 hours out of 24? Can't be helpful.

[SmartAlex]

Since hypothyroidism is quite rare in horses, I find it very difficult to believe that not just one, but TWO horses have this condition *as a primary problem*.

I would be looking MUCH more likely into insulin resistance as causing the low thyroid.

And no, an IR horse does not have to be obese ;)

Yes, they probably do have IR as well, I'm not sure they were tested but I will bring it up. It was tough enough to get her to get the diagnosis on the thyroid. My mom is from the old farm school where horses get grain and hay, and fat means healthy. The vet is from the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school. But, repeated problems with abcesses in both horses made them crack on the testing.

As for having two horses with the same problem, they are Saddlebreds, Thyroid and IR are very very very common, especially with this family of horses (Uptown Commander). Their dam certainly had it to, but she is gone.

I have gotten her to stop feeding them peppermints and other sugary treats. They only get carrots or BOSS for snacks.

Since they only get the oats for mental reasons (theirs and hers ;)), and probably both are IR, is there any harm in feeding them oats? The hay is high quality and lord knows she gives them enough.

[BornToRide]

YES, because the oats will contuinue to feed the IR! They are high in NSCs. You'd simply be fueling the fire with gas.

[SmartAlex]

Genetics. And.. possibly.. standing in a stall for 16 hours out of 24? Can't be helpful.


True. In the summer they are out all night and inside during fly time. So far, the grass does not seem to have posed enough of a problem to call for grazing muzzles.

[SmartAlex]

YES, because the oats will contuinue to feed the IR! They are high in NSCs.


What are NSCs?

[BornToRide]

Non-structural carbs, sugars and starches, or soluble carbs.

[deltawave]

My comment on "whatever those are" points out my skepticism about how this diagnosis is made in general, and in horses specifically. It ("low thyroid") is too often a garbage-can term thrown out without any real specific testing or diagnostics. Ditto for the widespread use of thyroid supplementation without a specific diagnosis. Not harshing on the OP (honest!) but it is representative of a lot of comments I hear from people: "my vet thought we'd just put the horse on thyroid supplement, not sure why", etc.

As to a handful of oats, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. :) In the grand scheme of things, the handful of oats is not the problem.

[BornToRide]

I would, because a handful can often be too much already for some horses and may also push them over the edge when combined with what they are already getting.

From experience we have also often seen that a handful turned out to be much more than that, as the owners tend to fudge the feeding a lot!

[deltawave]

Well, if 3 or 4 ounces of oats has enough sugar to put a horse over the edge, that's one fragile horse, considering the volume of forage they eat (which has sugars too). Even a pound of the healthiest hay with the lowest NSCs has a whale of a lot more starch/sugar than a handful of oats.

But fret if you must. :)

[SmartAlex]

No worries deltawave. I'm pretty skeptical about this particular diagnosis myself. But don't get me started on finding a good vet... And besides, they aren't actually mine, I'm just trying to help my mother draw a straighter line through the tangled web of infomation and opinions available.
She does want to do the right thing.

And yes BornToRide, the feeding does get fudged. Mom is a big softie, and these boys are spoiled and demanding, but don't get me started on that tangent either...

Bottom line. Both horses were abcessing badly and often (as had their dam). We got them tested for thyroid and on Thyrol-L and both had more energy, less pudge, and so far only one abcess between them in almost two years. We just are trying to gather more info so their good health continue as they age. All opinions are welcome and accepted without defense.

oh.. and I just had an email exchange with Mom, and she is going to have the hay analysed.

[BornToRide]

Bottom line. Both horses were abcessing badly and often (as had their dam). We got them tested for thyroid and on Thyrol-L and both had more energy, less pudge, and so far only one abcess between them in almost two years. We just are trying to gather more info so their good health continue as they age. All opinions are welcome and accepted without defense.Yes, that's also often a symptom seen in IR horses. If the are truly IR, then the thyroid supplementation is only managing the condition, but not eliminating it.

[deltawave]

I think knowing what's in the hay is SO helpful. We can wring our hands over the 8 ounces of stuff that comes in a bag, and froth over those few extra micrograms of whatever nutrient we don't want them getting, but if we don't know what's in the other 99% of their daily intake, we're sort of losing the forest for the trees. :)

It looks like I'm going to have a LOT of leftover hay this spring, and it's all really good, low-NSC stuff. I'm going to sell it advertised as a special blend for IR horses. :p :D

[JB]

So, the horses WERE pudgy before the Thryo-L? AND abcessing frequently? Sounds IR to me, with chronic, mild laminitis.

I would indeed be talking to the vet about insulin resistance. Bring it up - the response will give you an idea of whether the vet even knows what it is, much less how to test for it.

I do believe you'd have to be off the Thyro-L for X period of time to get an accurate test, though I'm not sure.

I certainly wouldn't rule out hypothyroidism as a primary issue, but it's just SO rare.

I agree that if a handful of oats is causing a problem, then either the horses are already SO close to the edge with the grass, or there are more issues than are being discussed or seen. I'd put muzzles on when on grass before I worried about 1c of oats.

[SmartAlex]

So, the horses WERE pudgy before the Thryo-L? AND abcessing frequently? Sounds IR to me, with chronic, mild laminitis.

I would agree whole heartedly. One horse had a mild bout of laminitis. No discernable laminitis in the second one.

I would indeed be talking to the vet about insulin resistance.

I will stress this, since I also agree and have always been curious. My feeling is we do not have the big picture. I think my Mom jumped on the thyroid because she understands that better than the IR in general.

I agree that if a handful of oats is causing a problem, then either the horses are already SO close to the edge with the grass, or there are more issues than are being discussed or seen. I'd put muzzles on when on grass before I worried about 1c of oats.

I don't know if the oats really are a problem. How this whole discussion started is one horse has a dental problem. We had an emergency floating done by a vet (not the regular one... he mysteriously misplaced his dental tools :confused:...whatever ;))
The plan was to schedule a regular dentist visit for everyone after my mare foals. But, the problem is cropping up again a month later, so it could be a broken tooth etc, or just a really bad floating job. So, we called the dentist, and she asked what all he was eating as it would pertain to difficulty chewing. That's when we got the "you shouldn't bother feeding a low0thyroid horse oats. He should eat senior feed." So, I'm in research mode.

[JB]

That's when we got the "you shouldn't bother feeding a low0thyroid horse oats. He should eat senior feed." So, I'm in research mode.

Ummm, yeah, research ;)

Most Sr feeds are actually pretty high in sugars. Some are not - TC Sr is among the better ones. Oats are 50% NSC, but 1c or so is less sugar than 1lb of a high sugar feed, Sr or not.

If the horses are in good weight, I would not be giving ANY "feed", other than either a ration balancer or vit/min supp. If you needed something to mix the vite/min supp with, then a handful of alfalfa pellets or beet pulp, soaked to get it mixed, works very well. Oats just don't soak as well as those 2.

[SmartAlex]

So much easier to sort through experience of the people who have dealt first hand with this than to read articles... :) although I have tried that too previously, and it's clear as mud.

As for supplements in beet pulp... I already have the problem of not being able to get it without mollasses. It has been a nice fiber additive for my own horse (much bigger softer poop :D) but the mollasses worries me in general even for non IR horses.
The alfalfa pellets sound like an idea. If they are really lacking anything, which the hay analysis should point out. This used to all be much more simple.

Here's a question from Mom

"They seem fine on this Thyrol L, if they were found to be Insulin Resistant, how would we manage them better? "

I'm headed to the barn right now on my lunch break and I'll just sum up with "They shouldn't eat any feed until you start riding their lazy butts" for now ;)

Thank you to all who are taking the time to answer. Your efforts are much appreciated.

[JB]

So much easier to sort through experience of the people who have dealt first hand with this than to read articles... :) although I have tried that too previously, and it's clear as mud.
But don't discount the value of articles too :)

As for supplements in beet pulp... I already have the problem of not being able to get it without mollasses. It has been a nice fiber additive for my own horse (much bigger softer poop :D) but the mollasses worries me in general even for non IR horses.
If you're just using 1c for a carrier, I wouldn't worry about it at all. If nothing else, you let it soak for 10 minutes or so, drain the water, then add a little more water if necessary. Added molasses is mostly gone :)

The alfalfa pellets sound like an idea. If they are really lacking anything, which the hay analysis should point out. This used to all be much more simple.
Most of these soak quickly too, especially in warm/hot water.

Here's a question from Mom

"They seem fine on this Thyrol L, if they were found to be Insulin Resistant, how would we manage them better? "
www.safergrass.org is a great place to start. Management boils down to just how IR they are. You'd have to wean off the Thyro-L (do not cold turkey cut it out), and then I think you can test for IR (not sure about that, though am sure about the weaning). Some horses just need to be protected from Spring and Fall grass. Others need more. Depends on the severity, so it becomes of a bit of trial and error in finding the best management practices. Ideally all your hay would be tested to be in the 10% NSC range or less. Not always possible.

I'm headed to the barn right now on my lunch break and I'll just sum up with "They shouldn't eat any feed until you start riding their lazy butts" for now ;)

LOL, exactly. Exercise is REALLY important in managing this, if indeed IR is an issue. But even then, exercise is just plain healthier :)

[BornToRide]

Here's a question from Mom

"They seem fine on this Thyrol L, if they were found to be Insulin Resistant, how would we manage them better? "
What JB said and they could even be better just by diet management and without having to pay for extra meds :)

[SmartAlex]

Thank you all very much. Things are starting to make better sense. You have saved time in helping me with a direction for my further research :cool:
Simply printing the articles and leaving them in the feed room for Mom never got us this far.

[Cherry]

They only get carrots...
If the horses are IR I would ditch these carrots too!!!! :eek: Very high on the glycemic index.... ;) Too much sugar!

[SmartAlex]

If the horses are IR I would ditch these carrots too!!!! :eek: Very high on the glycemic index.... ;) Too much sugar!

I did read that in an article today!

[SmartAlex]

I finally got my Mom to test her two geldings for Insulin Resistance. They were 104 and 118 respectively. (Range is 10-40), She had already switched them to low sugar pelleted feed for their "snacks" at feeding time. Their thyroid levels were within range due to the thyrol-l.

My own horse, I finally found a supplier for beet pulp without the mollasses. I had him tested too as a percaution, and his insulin levels were fine. His thyroid tested a bit low, so we will be putting him on a small dose of the thyrol-l.

So, I guess we will have to be even more vigilant about grass, and will have to have our hay tested. I am relieved that my own horse was not IR, so I can still give him his daily carrot. ;)

Oh, and P.S. we are working with a great vet now. Still keeping the "farm vet" for emergency stuff and other animals, but have moved on to a great "horse vet" who seems to be much more pro-active about this. The other vet just wasn't interested.

[BornToRide]

A carrot a day is much less of a problem for an IR horse than the hay or any pelleted feed. Hay can be too high in NSCs and I would not feed anything pelleted as even the advertised low carb pellets CAN be a problem for some horses.

I know of two chronically laminitic horses that are on a feed that is recommended by the manufacturer to be ideal for IR horses because it is soy based and high in fat. One horse improved each time the offending feed was removed. Unfortunately the owner still does not believe it.

The hay may also need to be soaked until your moms horses stabilize!

[smay]

-- two ponies who are not low thyroid, but one is diagnosed Insulin Resistant, and the other is simply fat. Both are currently healthy and the smaller pony's insulin is at normal levels with diet and exercise, SO...I feed them the recommended amount of Purina Wellsolve W/C (weight control), a kind of "puffed up" pellet that they seem to really enjoy eating and seems to be very safe for them to eat. It solves the problem of getting their supplements into them, and giving them something at feed time - which I AGREE is not of PRIME importance - but does help with getting my herd inside and settled into their stalls at night, and also helps balance their hay diet with some needed minerals,etc. I hate how much it costs, but it does suit my purpose with these particular ponies.