Tell me about a Hay Less diet!

[joharavhf]

I have a horse that has been diagnosed with Inflammatory Airway disease. He has been on meds since December and we are having a hard time clearing it up. We've done clenbuterol, prednisolone, inhaled albuterol, inhaled flovent (steroid). We now have clear lungs (per two vets), but he still has a lot of phlegm hanging around in his throat. Going to put him back on the pred with the albuterol. I've also just had him adjusted and accupunctured. So, we're running a ton of stuff with him. He's on MSM and Spirulina.

Sooooooooo.....I am now toying with the idea of removing hay from his diet. I feel TERRIBLE about this because he is a BIG hay eater. Basically I feed him as much as he wants which is about 35 pounds per day. He gets a 1/4c. of pellets 2x per day so he thinks he's eating grain...haha.

Currently I have been soaking his hay for about 1 minute. I have been told that's not long enough, so I'm going to soak it for 10 minutes and see if that helps. However, this soaking crapola is REALLY hard to do in New England in the winter.

Bagged forages (such as Triple Crown) are very expensive around here - $20 per bag!

I'd love to hear about your hay-less diets for your horses. How do you keep them from being bored stiff??? Obviously come late Spring, Summer and early Fall he'll be able to graze for most of the day.....but we'll run in to problems during winter again.

Thanks for any input!

[AKB]

Try Dengie from Lucerne Farms. We have a horse with severe allergies/COPD/heaves. A few days after we started Dengie and removed all of the hay from the barn, his allergies disappeared and we were able to start weaning him off of his meds. For 8 expensive years, all of our horses ate Dengie, because he couldn't tolerate any hay in the barn. A year ago, his allergies had been better for such a long time that our friend let him eat a little of her orchard grass hay. He has been fine on orchard grass hay from that one particular hay field for the last year. I think he misses his Dengie. He used to eat 20lbs of Dengie per day, plus his Purina Complete Advantage grain. It made a huge difference in his symptoms, and he was very happy. The only problem was the cost.

[Doodlebug1]

Could you try haylage instead - it's dust free so no soaking -and cheaper than Dengie.... that would always be the vets advice in the UK before trying a dengie type product.

[joharavhf]

What is "haylage"?

[AngelainTexas]

http://www.chaffhaye.com/index.php?page_name=home

[Cherry]

How about hay stretcher pellets??? Blue Seal makes them and Cargill makes them for Nutrena and Agway (same formula)--but the BS and Cargill formulas differ.

[joharavhf]

I know all about hay stretcher and the forages (ie: triple crown, dengie, etc). I just feel really bad about removing hay from a pony who ONLY EATS hay right now! It feels so UNNATURAL :(

[MunchkinsMom]

I know all about hay stretcher and the forages (ie: triple crown, dengie, etc). I just feel really bad about removing hay from a pony who ONLY EATS hay right now! It feels so UNNATURAL :(

Yup, it sure does go against everything that we have been preached at about horse feeding. However, I have 3 horses that have been on a grass and "grain" diet since October, and they are doing just fine. Actually, they appear to be doing a bit better on the new diet.

The reason behind this is that the youngest gelding had colic surgery, ileal impaction due to ileal hypertrophy, so no more hay for him ever, or we risk another impaction. I talked with the vet, she said the new diet should be fine for all of them.

I think one of the keys is to select a feed that is formuated as a complete feed, that can be feed without any hay. I feed Blue Seal Vintage Senior (tried Purina and Nutrena, the horse would not eat them). Right now in the winter with our dormant grass, they get about 10 pounds of feed per day, spread out over 5 feedings per day, and all the pasture grass they can nibble on in the 15 hours a day that they are out. I should be able to cut back a bit in the spring and summer when the grass starts growing.

Another advantage is - I have NO trouble getting the horses to come to the barn, since most of my trips down there is to feed.

Third advantage is the stalls are ever so much easier to clean, no wasted hay all mingled in the shavings, picking is a breeze. And because the horses are not hanging out in the stalls eating hay, less poop in the stalls to clean.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

If it is the dust bothering him then I would rinse the hay and then soak it well. For IR horses needing less sugar you soak hay in hot water for 30 minutes or 1 hour in cold. I know your horse isn't presenting with IR but I can tell you that after this much soaking the hay is good and wet and stays that way until your horse eats it unless you spread it out to dry. By rinsing it first you should help remove some of the dust. It's a pain in the butt but there are some tips to make it less cumbersome to do.

We put a hay bag inside of a muck bucket and then stick in 2-3 flakes. Put a block on top to keep it weighted down. Let it soak. Remove block. Tip muck bucket to empty water. Pull hay bag string tight and remove bag of hay from the muck bucket. Water will continue to drain out of it. If you want to hang it up in the hay bag then you're all set. There are other ways to do it and I realize that the most difficult part for you is the water in this freezing weather. We have a hot water heater in the barn which makes this easy and less uncomfortable. We are soaking for a possible IR horse and I am paranoid so I soak and then rinse with fresh water.

Alternatively you could look into using beet pulp. It also requires rinsing and soaking and you cannot give all his forage requirements in the form of beet pulp.

What are you using for bedding?

[sid]

I had a horse with severe COPD for over 20 years. Hay can be problematic for sure. But the issue is not about quelling boredom for not giving hay. ALL all horses must have a high quality, palatable fibre source, as that is what they require s as the primary source of nutrition, and for gut function...as a species.

Some of the high fibre feeds are fine to provide fibre, but they still need some "long stem" fibre to keep the gut functioning properly.

Products like Dengi, and prepared, low dust products from Lucerne Farms (google their website) are indeed life savers. Yes, they are expensive, but you do what you have to do.

An alternative would be to soak hay cubes or alfalfa cubes to offer with the grain meal to provide some long-stem fibre.

Hopefully, your horse lives outside 24/7. If you are blasting the dust off of the hay, that may not be enough if the horse is living in a stall where dust abounds.

Last, some COPD horses are reactive to certain types of hay. Mine was always worse on Orchard and did better on Timothy. Have you had allergy testing done...that can help you eliminate some of the offending environmental/nutritional causes for the chronic problems or flareups.

To take a horse off any forage of any type is not a good idea.

[joharavhf]

Products like Dengi, and prepared, low dust products from Lucerne Farms (google their website) are indeed life savers. Yes, they are expensive, but you do what you have to do.
......
Hopefully, your horse lives outside 24/7. If you are blasting the dust off of the hay, that may not be enough if the horse is living in a stall where dust abounds.

Last, some COPD horses are reactive to certain types of hay. Mine was always worse on Orchard and did better on Timothy. Have you had allergy testing done...that can help you eliminate some of the offending environmental/nutritional causes for the chronic problems or flareups.

To take a horse off any forage of any type is not a good idea.

Hi sid! I have access to both Dengie and Triple Crown forages. Pony guy lives outside 24/7 with access to a 10x12 run-in stall which I bed with pine shavings right now. I usually bed less in the summer - as they don't sleep in the run-ins during the summer! They usually bask out in the sun!


We put a hay bag inside of a muck bucket and then stick in 2-3 flakes. Put a block on top to keep it weighted down. Let it soak. Remove block. Tip muck bucket to empty water. ....


Hi Altamont! I have actually dealt with a cushings/laminitic horse...so I am very good at it. It is just so difficult to do in the winter without making major ice....But thus far I've been doing okay, so I'll continue.


Third advantage is the stalls are ever so much easier to clean, no wasted hay all mingled in the shavings, picking is a breeze. And because the horses are not hanging out in the stalls eating hay, less poop in the stalls to clean.

MunchkinsMom - OMG. I never thought of THIS!!!!! Less waste....hummm....rethinking the inconvenience of this!!!!!!


So right now I feed him about 35 pounds of 1st cut Timothy hay and 1/2 cup PER DAY of Blue Seal's Trotter pelleted complete feed. I also feed 4 pounds of Triple Crown's Safe Choice Forage. If I were to go "hay free", what could I do???

[sublimequine]

I don't really know much about the subject myself, but I do know at a barn I used to board at, two horses were on a hay-free diet. They got timothy cubes twice a day, each meal they were given a little grain bucket (not like the big water buckets, but the little grain ones) full of hay cubes. They seemed to do alright just on that. The timothy cubes aren't horribly appetizing, so the horses never really mowed through them quickly then left with nothing for the majority of the day or anything.

[black jack]

Not trying to hijack thread!!!!! But

I just got some of the Chaffehaye that Angeleine reccommended above. Turns out the owner of the Company is here in the Houston area so I picked up 2 bags to try on my boys.
My Friesian and Mustang have been getting TC Safe Starch Forage and Purina's Premium chopped Alfalfa for quite some time as there only hay.
The Mustang has heaves and doesn't do well on our lovely Texas coastal:no:
The Friesian had an impaction colic from coastal a year ago and since then we see signs of EPSM so we chose to feed him the bagged hays as well.

I going to try the Chaffhay over the bagged Purina Alfalfa and TC and see waht happens. My only concern is feeding straight Alfalfa (although the owner said this alfalfa is only about 8% protein due to the way it is harvested etc.) And it has a little bit of molasses. Will the Molasses hurt an EPSM/IR type horse who is otherwise on the EPSM diet? The NSC level is really low in the Chaffhaye too.
You can go to the link listed above in Angeleine's post. Also does anyone else use this hay?

[Alibhai's Alibar]

My horse had to go hay-free for a different reason (impactions due to his bad teeth/poorly chewed hay). I fed soaked timothy/alfalfa cubes to Alibar for almost a decade.

He got cubes in the morning and at night, with a big bucket of Dengie/Lucerne Hi-Fiber for lunch. I always soaked the cubes with this ratio: 1 part cubes to 2 parts water. If your horse is a really quick eater, you might be able to put the soaked cubes in a big tub with some Dengie to slow things down. It would make a half-dry, half-wet mix. I fed that to Alibar on occasion as well.

Alibar was fat, shiny, and happy on his diet and the barn help loved cleaning his stall ;)

I fed cubes instead of hay pellets because I wanted him to get as much long-stem fiber as possible, but I'd imagine that you could rotate a forage menu between cubes, pellets, and chopped hay until you figured out what works best for you and your horse. Good luck!

[Doodlebug1]

ahhh, OK - sorry, had no idea you don't have haylage - or at least call it haylage. Here is a link (http://www.haylageforhorses.co.uk/) to a haylage supplier - you might have something similar just called something else....

It's sort of like silage (if you have that - normally fed to cattle) but less rich and safer to feed to horses. It's completely dust free as it still has enough moisture in it prevent dust spores.

In the UK it's used by the majority of horse owners as it is dust free, nutritionally more reliable than hay and horses love it. Because it is a bit richer, it isn't suitable for lamanitics - but on the other hand my horses are in full work (including hunting a couple of times a month) and are only out at grass during the day and have ad lib haylage at night, which works out much cheaper than feeding hay and hard feed.

I'll ask my mom (she's American) if she knows whether haylage exists in the US - I'm guessing not - hmmm, maybe I should move over there and start selling, it's genius stuff.... Dollars are spinning in front of my eyes as I type!

$$$$$$$

[betsyk]

I had a heavey mare back in the days before all the various things like ventipulmin, when the best advice anyone could give was "turn her out full time and feed her hay cubes." So we found a place to board where there were several older horses who couldn't have hay, all came into stalls for an hour or so am & pm and were fed about a 5-quart ice cream pail of hay cubes and whatever grain they got (probably a couple of pounds - this was years ago!). In between meals there was literally no hay in their pasture and nothing to eat besides sticks and weeds and anything that might have blown in from nextdoor. she looked wonderful and her breathing was great. Fast forward a few years to when I brought her home to a neighbor's place and fed her myself; she got a much healthier mix of alfalfa cubes, pellets, beet pulp, and various other things for calories (age 35 by then) and was able to pick at straight dairy alfalfa if she only got a little at a time. Did she crave hay? of course! did she eat all kinds of junk in the pasture that horses probably wouldn't have eaten if they had hay available? of course! was she a horrible pest any time there was grass available? of course! but she could breathe. And did she ever act colicky or show any sign of trouble from lack of fiber? never. Go figure.

Another friend had no hay on her property because of an older, heavey horse. She fed complete feed and they had acres of pasture to scavenge on year-round. Stalls and sheds were REALLY easy to clean!!

As far as quantity: 35 lbs of hay sounds like a lot, unless you're using "pony" as a term of endearment and he's actually a 17 hand TB or a draft mix or something? Rosie the QH, my old mare above, got maybe 10 lb/day of alfalfa cubes because I remember paying the barn for 6 50-lb bags/month. That's not very much - I wouldn't do it that way again - but maybe you won't need to replace that 35 lb pound-for-pound.

[joharavhf]

Hi everyone! THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR REPLIES!!!!!! (I *DO* want to correct my original post to state 25 pounds of hay because I made a typo!!!!) The horse in question IS a "pony". He's 14.1h but about 1000 pounds. He's a Welsh Cob - and they are known for being more "drafty" and heavier. This boy has TONS of bone, and he *is* a wee fat right now....Nothing serious though. He's probably a 7.5 on the scale. Not too bad at all. He gets NO grain, and he's in medium work.

Anyways, I am going to slowly make the change to a hayless diet for him. Not sure if I'm going to with my mare, but we'll see.

SOOOO, I went to my feed store today and picked up some stuff. Haylage is not readily available here in New England....so I'm not going to try that.

Here's what I'm planning to do for one week, and then I'll change amounts. I've already introduced him to all of this stuff, so I think these values will be safe to start with....Let me know what you think. I know that's still 7.5 pounds of hay per day (eek), BUT he seems to be doing MUCH better today :D

Breakfast
2.5# soaked hay
1# TC Safe Starch
2# Hay Stretcher
1# Alfalfa Cube

Lunch
2# TC Safe Starch
1# Hay Stretcher Pellet

Dinner
2.5# soaked hay
1# TC Safe Starch
2# Hay Stretcher
1# Alfalfa Cube

Bedtime
2.5# soaked hay
2# TC Safe Starch
1# Alfalfa cube
2# Hay stretcher pellet

[MunchkinsMom]

So right now I feed him about 35 pounds of 1st cut Timothy hay and 1/2 cup PER DAY of Blue Seal's Trotter pelleted complete feed. I also feed 4 pounds of Triple Crown's Safe Choice Forage. If I were to go "hay free", what could I do???

Well, I just checked the Blue Seal chart - they recommend 1 -1.25 lbs of feed per 100 lbs of body weight per day - this is a guide, you may need more or less depending on your pasture availability and activity level of the horse. This is for both Trotter (pelleted feed) and Vintage Senior (extruded feed). I use Vintage Senior because the vet recommended an extruded complete feed over pellets, and I have two senior horses anyway.

I do stretch the number of feedings out throughout the day, so they are not going for any great length of time without feed. Right now with the dormant grass, it is 5 times a day, I am hoping once the grass wakes up and grows that I can cut back to three times a day, and possibly a bit less on the amount.

Now, I also read in the Blue Seal brochure that they make a product called Vintage Racer, and it states that it is an ideal grain and partial hay replacement ration for horses with respiratory problems.

[pintopiaffe]

Just a thought...

Beet Pulp could make a nice addition to your plan, and help cut costs a little when/if you need to cut the soaked hay.

1/3 each of alfalfa CUBES (long stem fiber) hay stretcher and beep could easily replace the soaked hay lb for lb if/when you needed.

Just a rough example: instead of the soaked hay, you could do 2# alfalfa cube, 2# beep, 2# hay stretcher.... and you might even be able to ditch the safe starch (though as I understand it the safe starch is rather like an RB and has the vits/mins--you'd haev to add vit/min...

You'd be getting the long stem fiber from the falf cubes rather than hay.

Since you're soaking, you can also easily add 1/2 to 1c oil per day to make up for the Safe Starch calories.

Honestly, I like a vit/min & whole foods ('falf cubes and beep) rather than the mfg feeds these days. Just me. I think it would be a small cost and effort savings, without at all effecting the 'quality' of fiber.

I'm a little more north of you, and am not able to soak hay at all in winter. I did 1/2 beep 1/2 falf cubes w/ oil and vits for my COPD mare back in the day. A quart or two of Vintage Gold when she was nursing or pg... and that's it. She did fabulously, and it worked in the winter... and in the summer--as no hay at all, just pasture.