proposed rule changes from the Professional Horseman's Council

[JER]

There's a blog post (http://useventing.com/blog/?p=1963) up at USEA by Bobby Costello in which he discusses two rule change proposals that the Professional Horseman's Council will be putting forward.

But before I say more, I'd like to point out that the PHC doesn't seem to know how to spell their name or perhaps they don't know what their name really is. In an attempt to clear this up, I went to the PHC's 'About Us' statement (http://useventing.com/aboutus.php?section=PHC) at the USEA site.

Professional Horsemen's Council

Mission Statement: The Professional Horseman's Council....

Rule #1 for professional organizations: know your own name. Otherwise, it doesn't look too, um, professional.

The two rule change proposals are as follows:

(1) Instead of the traditional SJ warm-up, with three set fences, the PHC wants to have a H/J-style warm-up, with four fences with four standard each and no directional control.

For those of us that event but also attend recognized USEF hunter/jumper shows, we appreciate how orderly and relatively stress-free the warm-up areas are for these competitions.

Mr. Costello, I want to go to your jumper shows. The ones I go to are warm-up mayhem, with people screaming, cutting each other off, leaving fences in disarray, and if you don't have a ground person, you're SOL. But again, the h/j world comes with attendants, accolytes and exploited labor, which has not been the case traditionally in the eventing world.

Costello does say 'there will still need to be a couple of jumps for the rider without help on the ground to utilize' but if you're talking about four jumps total, this means two are for those with ground help and two are for solo people? That's starting to sound impractical given the time constraints and number of horses that need to warm up. This system also would make it difficult for you to jump two jumps in sequence, which is something I always do in warm-up.

As someone who likes to compete alone, I don't want to see the warm-up become more trainer/big-barn driven.

(2) The PRC wants to let horses be shown for 'business purposes' in warm-up areas after the horse is done competing:
For those of us in the PHC, we make our living through the sport of eventing, thus we must be able to conduct business (in addition to coaching) while at the competitions much like our peers in the hunter/jumper and dressage world do. The rule would state that so long as it does not interfere with the running of the competition, a horse that is through competing may use all existing warm up areas “for any and all business purposes”.

The PHC seems to really like the hunter/jumper business model.

:: sigh ::

[LexInVA]

You can thank the USEF committees for spreading (forcing) ideas like that into every sport outside of the H/J rings.

[BaroquePony]

This is becoming more and more like a really bad nightmare. I keep hoping I will wake up and horsemanship and the rules of good horse etiquette will emerge from the past :uhoh:

[RAyers]

PHC, thy name is CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

I saw/lived through this in the 70s and 80s with the h/j world. Pretty soon the amateur and the horse with a heart of gold will be just a pleasant remembrance. Horses will be more and more a commodity. The upper levels will be the domain of the sponsored pro and the shamateur. It is a messed up business model but so long as vanity and money exist, it will survive. REAL horsemen and women in the arena will gone in a generation and all there will be are horse riders.

I have been accused, and rightfully and proudly so, of declaring war on professionals. Professional riders/trainers are the WRONG people to run a sport. Name me ONE top pro athlete who ever made a successful transition from competition to management in any sport. I will DC as the current prime example of somebody who may be a great rider but look at how BAD his business skills were/are.

I love the second rule proposal. Let's see, it would be better for my work (lest cost in time and money) if I could carry my products on the airplane with me. Oh, hold it, it puts people's lives at risk and sure can inconvenience travelers! I'm not saying that showing horses after they are done competing would kill somebody but it does inconvenience any rider who is still showing (e.g. at most shows this is during the lower levels when riders need the chance to focus) and can, perhaps lead to a bad situation.

Let the pros show their sale horses AWAY from the competition rings or use warm-ups that are no longer needed.

Reed

[JER]

Name me ONE top pro athlete who ever made a successful transition from competition to management in any sport.


While I agree with what you're saying about conflict of interest and the effed-up-dom of the h/j world...

In football/soccer, there is a long tradition of great players becoming top managers. To name a few: Mario Zagallo, Franz Beckenbauer, Johan Cruyff, Jurgen Klinsmann. Sir Alex Ferguson was a top player in Scotland (he declined offers to play in the UK) and the greatest football manager ever, Rinus Michels, played many years for the best Dutch team and the national team.

Danny Ainge was a damn good basketball player and as an executive, deserves much of the credit for the Celtics recent NBA championship. Larry Bird was an outstanding player and coach.

My point is, it happens. Brains and athletic talent don't have to be mutually exclusive. We should expect the leaders in our sport to have an ample supply of both.

If this lot doesn't fit the bill, then let's find some new leaders who have what it takes to really lead.

[beeblebrox]

I'm a professional and you know what, I have to wait like everyone else and use jumps when it is all over, not only do I not want to get in riders who are showing I do not want them in my way. I do not think it is fair to other competitors who are trying to warm up to compete for jumps with those wanting to sell horses.
It makes it a logistical nightmare for the back gate person to control the ring as well. Thankfully management or stewards shooo these folks away.

Also it already happen where you will have a ground person for a student or trainer who will go out at a event (horse trials) and max out a vertical or oxer (in width, height or both) and walk off (my favorite is horse will nock it down and they call it a good rub and leave it down ;-) while I am alone on a young horse who does not need the widest oxer to start for his first spread. I am challenged with getting off or begging someone to change it. Also show at H/J show and you have freaking people squat on jumps, meaning it is theirs and you can not use it. Sometimes you have 2 left before you go and all four jumps are being used by other trainers and then they leave jumps in a big mess. We should take a video of all the near misses at the hunter jumper shows to give the council some grey hairs ;-)

[TwinGates]

Mr. Costello, I want to go to your jumper shows. The ones I go to are warm-up mayhem, with people screaming, cutting each other off, leaving fences in disarray, and if you don't have a ground person, you're SOL. But again, the h/j world comes with attendants, accolytes and exploited labor, which has not been the case traditionally in the eventing world.

Right there with you.

[tcgelec]

As a veteran horse show parent in the H/J world, one of the main initial reasons I came over to Eventing when I began competing myself was because it was run so differently from H/J. Now those folks want to change our world to be more like theirs?! Amazing. "I love you, you're perfect, now change!"

Tom G.

[LisaB]

You beat me to it. I'm sorry but I generally don't have a ground person nor my trainer up my butt to set jumps for me. And I hate it when my horse knocks a fence down because I have to grovel for someone to put it back up as my horse is usually quite jacked up (doesn't look it but is) and getting on and off would be a nightmare. Now add that you have some funky wonky height or width that is set for a particular horse ...
And I'm sorry that you feel that the existing warm up jumps aren't good enough. I know I can do A LOT with just those 3. I can trot up to them to get to the base if I have a launcher. I can go at an angle if I have a wiggle worm ...
And one thing that an instructor told me when they watched the warm up at Rolex was that all the riders that came from overseas were mostly warming up over ground poles. Then they did a few jumps and went into the sj and kicked the crap out of us. They saw that we (the US riders) were jumping jumping jumping all the big stuff and had rails. So there you go.
No, I don't want to see the warm up change and no I don't want to see a bunch of ground people hanging around the warm up.
And about showing horses to clients at shows. I've seen it a lot. They don't go into the main warm up areas or at least they wait until late when traffic is minimal. And the pros need to cut costs as much as possible. I'm actually okay with it. But I think it has to be at the discretion of the venue and they have their own rules in place for this.

[pegasusmom]

And one thing that an instructor told me when they watched the warm up at Rolex was that all the riders that came from overseas were mostly warming up over ground poles. Then they did a few jumps and went into the sj and kicked the crap out of us. They saw that we (the US riders) were jumping jumping jumping all the big stuff and had rails.

Interesting observation, having watched some one warm up for a training XC round about two weeks ago. She jumped about 35-40 times enough to go around XC three or four times - I am surprised she had any gas left in the tank.

[Kanga]

What are these people thinking?? This is one of the worst ideas that they have come up with to date (I'm sure there will be more to follow!). What next? Is it going to turn into your trainer must be on your horse before you trot down that center line??

I think the sport in this country needs to be renamed "HUNTER EVENTING"

I'm starting to believe that we are at the beginning of the end of the real sport of eventing.....Might be time to go back to England and ride with all the REAL eventers again....


SO SAD!!!

[Hilary]

OK, then I have an idea.

BN gets to go first. Always. Then N, then T, then P. that way the BN folks will be well gone and out of the way by the time the pros need to show their sale horses when they are done riding them in the competition. If you're competing at Prelim you probably can deal with nutso warm ups, but don't make the BN/N riders & horses suffer through any more warm up hell than is necessary.

Also, warm up is mayhem enough when we are all supposed to jump in the same direction.

To what benefit is this idea? Is it really necessary to jump in easterly AND westerly trajectories? Yes, we jump in both directions in the ring, but if that's the goal, just let us do a warm up round. Oh, wait, that IS what they do at a hunter show....

[S A McKee]

There's a blog post (http://useventing.com/blog/?p=1963) up at USEA by Bobby Costello in which he discusses two rule change proposals that the Professional Horseman's Council will be putting forward.

(1) Instead of the traditional SJ warm-up, with three set fences, the PHC wants to have a H/J-style warm-up, with four fences with four standard each and no directional control.
Mr. Costello, I want to go to your jumper shows. The ones I go to are warm-up mayhem, with people screaming, cutting each other off, leaving fences in disarray, and if you don't have a ground person, you're SOL. But again, the h/j world comes with attendants, accolytes and exploited labor, which has not been the case traditionally in the eventing world.
:


Very odd.
The requirements for a hunter warmup area are:
a trot fence
a vertical fece
an oxer

Pretty much the same set of three fences that the blog seems to be complaining about.

Yes, very large shows sometimes have four fences in the schooling area and they will have separate schooling areas for hunters, jumpers or even for each ring but I hate to tell you that most H/J shows are of the one day variety and just use the three fence arrangement which is specified in the Hunter rules.

Can't help but say that while there are of course some exhibitors that habitually cause problems in the warmup area most are well behaved. Your description of the warmup area is certainly nothing like I've seen at a recent H/J but it sure does sound like something I saw last year at an event.....

[FlightCheck]

No.

No to both.

The warmup is difficult enough with everyone going the SAME way.

If they are interested in your horse, they will wait to the end of the show.

I have already fired off my emails to the parties involved.

Thank you, JER.

[Ajierene]

OK, then I have an idea.

BN gets to go first. Always. Then N, then T, then P. that way the BN folks will be well gone and out of the way by the time the pros need to show their sale horses when they are done riding them in the competition. If you're competing at Prelim you probably can deal with nutso warm ups, but don't make the BN/N riders & horses suffer through any more warm up hell than is necessary.

Also, warm up is mayhem enough when we are all supposed to jump in the same direction.

To what benefit is this idea? Is it really necessary to jump in easterly AND westerly trajectories? Yes, we jump in both directions in the ring, but if that's the goal, just let us do a warm up round. Oh, wait, that IS what they do at a hunter show....

Depending on where you go and if you are talking about recognized or unrecognized, sometimes the higher levels go first. And I do know pros that go to unrecognized shows in this area - so be careful.

If we are going to compromise, I think it should either be that after the show is over, the pros can use the warm up area or there should be a 'showing' area with a jump or two in it - if the show has room. If the show does not, sorry about your luck - shows are for competition, not selling horses.


As far as hunter type warm up. Not so much - a friend was actually hit by another horse because she was on her horse, standing near a jump, looking the other way talking to the instructor when someone jumped the jump without calling it out or anything and she couldn't get out of the way in time. Knowing which way you are supposed to - or allowed to - jump the jumps is a GREAT help in organization. I do not know anyone that would say the hunter warm up is more organized than the eventing.

[shea'smom]

I haven't been to a hunter show in eons, but a couple of years ago at USPC Champs, they had about 6 jumps in the warmup. They were trying to be nice, but there were many near collisions and the coaches all had to hide by trees. Three jumps works.
As far as the selling after competition, I think something could be worked out. AS long as it doesn't affect anyone still trying to compete.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

There were 4 jumps at a show I was at recently, and I must say that part was nice - extra jump was a vertical, set smaller than max.

During the divisions with more pro riders, I could see unflagged fences could be a nice option - but good lord, 3 fences flagged is terrifying enough when you get a couple of nervous or new or clueless riders in warmup.

How about modifying the proposal for selling horses to read something like, "at organizers discretion, a separate area may be designated in which non-competing (??) horses may be shown and tried."

[Hilary]

Ajieren- that was my point. Usually the upper levels go first. But if he wants to be able to show sale horses then make sure that BN goes first, then the sale horses will not be shown to clients until BN is over.

Now, maybe it will depend on what level the sale horses are competing and if the sale horses are all BN/N this will actually make it a more prolific issue - but riders at Prelim will be better able to cope with sale horses in warm up than BN riders and green horses.


I'm less concerned with that suggestion than changing the fences to a free for all (except if your coach is there to command the fence for only their clients)

[deltawave]

To the PHC: if you're going to make your living at the shows where I come to have fun, be prepared to share and share cheerfully. It's not all about you. If you have horses to sell, stay home and sell them. If you want to come to shows and make your selling easier, don't expect the rest of us to just lie down and make your life easier so YOU can go home with a check and WE can go home with good fun and a ribbon if we're lucky. :rolleyes: Unless the economy has changed a lot, my check is written out for the same amount as yours. And MY money comes from MY pocket, not an owner's.

Want your own warmup area? Fine. Bring your own jumps, your own staff, and your own ambulance. Jeez.

[LLDM]

The two rule change proposals are as follows:

(1) Instead of the traditional SJ warm-up, with three set fences, the PHC wants to have a H/J-style warm-up, with four fences with four standard each and no directional control.

:confused: I would seriously like to hear the logic behind this. I'm guessing there is some, but what exactly it might be escapes me. I'll go look at the site.

(2) The PRC wants to let horses be shown for 'business purposes' in warm-up areas after the horse is done competing:


This just bothers me more than I can say. The horse is there to compete. Asking them to be "tried" after competing is just poor horsemanship IMO. Nor does it provide a true representation of what the horse is like to ride normally.

And no, sales tryouts before the competition or during the competition won't work either -as that can morph into trainers prepping horses all too easily.

This model works for H/J shows because they are structured entirely differently AND H/J is not an endurance sport. Plus it already has its own problems with this practice. On so many levels - just say no to this.

The convenience to trainers is not worth the undue stress on our equine athletes. There are days before and after competitions while the circus is still in town.

SCFarm

[Janet]

Very odd.
The requirements for a hunter warmup area are:
a trot fence
a vertical fece
an oxer

Pretty much the same set of three fences that the blog seems to be complaining about.

Yes, very large shows sometimes have four fences in the schooling area and they will have separate schooling areas for hunters, jumpers or even for each ring but I hate to tell you that most H/J shows are of the one day variety and just use the three fence arrangement which is specified in the Hunter rules.

Can you tell me where it is specified in the hunter rules? I can't find it.

[Classic Melody]

Definitely the worst, most tone-deaf ideas yet. But at least they are making them public rather than working through back channels and springing a rule change on the rest of us.

I sent a very respectful letter to RC and Kevin Baumgardner relaying my disagreement.

The warm-up area is not an appropriate place for sales.

[Badger]

Just NO. To both. Loudly.

The one-directional warm-up jumps in eventing are a lot safer and less confusing than in h/j world and it's still pretty darn hectic out there in warm-up. The last thing we need is to make it more of a circus.

[vineyridge]

Does Bobby Costello still ride at events? He's certainly on every eventing USEF and USEA committee that he can get on. What precisely is his current connection to the sport other than selling and coaching--and being on governing committees?

Is he just a front man for the PHC in this situation?

Now I know why Avery Brundage was so determined to keep Olympic sport amateur. Talk about changes to benefit one particular group of stakeholders. It's every bit as corrupt as politics and lobbyists. That's right--the whole sport has to be run for the 2%.

[Gnep]

I would suggest, that the fine People of the PHC pay a percentage of the money earned at shows, 5%, to the Organizer whos grounds and organisation they use to make money.

Instead of burdening the majority of the eventing community with their presents and demands they should set an example in volunteering and sponsorship of the shows they make money off

[War Admiral]

For those of us that event but also attend recognized USEF hunter/jumper shows, we appreciate how orderly and relatively stress-free the warm-up areas are for these competitions.

It's not often I'm rendered speechless, but... :eek::eek::eek: and :lol::lol::lol:

They have GOT to be kidding. Try floating this notion on the H/J forum and see what comes back atcha!

[caevent]

Having the warm-up free for all is like putting a bunch of drivers from different countries on the road and saying "Go ahead and drive on whichever side you want. It will all work out!" Right. Some peoples' logic astounds me. :rolleyes:

[Janet]

First, there are no actual rule change proposals here, and we all know that the deveil is in the details.

Second, my initial response to
For those of us that event but also attend recognized USEF hunter/jumper shows, we appreciate how orderly and relatively stress-free the warm-up areas are for these competitions. was "That only makes sense if 'those competitions' refers to Eventing."

But on further consideration, having competed in both Eventing and Jumpers in recent years, my response is a little bit different.

The jumper-style warm up works well for jumpers - because of some key factors about the way a jumper show is run.

The eventer-style warm up works well for eventers - because of some key factors about the way an event is run.

But an eventer style warm up wouldn't work for jumpers, and a jumper-style warm up won't work for Horse Trials.

Order of go
In most jumper classes (except the classics), the order of go is highly flexible, and trainer driven. In addition, the ring will wait, with no one competing, for a trainer to show up from elsewhere in the grounds. Therefore the horses and riders "with" a specific trainer tend to go into the ring one after the other, and warm up together.
In HT, the order of go is predetermined, and riders count on knowing when they will compete. In addition, the HT cannot wait, with an empty ring, for a trainer to show up. Therefore the horses "with" a specific trainer warm up separately.
So the "efficiencies" in setting the warm up fences for a group of jumpers go away for a group of eventers.
Rider-trainer relationship

In jumpers (in large part BECAUSE of the schooling ring routines) almost every rider is either "with" a trainer, or at least has their own "ground person" to "claim" and adjust "their" warm up fence. The jumper routine works reasonably well (as long as a small nunber of trainers don't "hog" the warm up jumps for an extended time) when every rider has a ground person. In addition, when someone is actively controling each warm up jump, there is not the need for a consistent jumping direction. But it gets really chaotic when there are riders who don't have their own ground person.
In eventing, many riders come to the schooling ring without a trainer. They may have come to the event without a trainer, or the trainer may be off competing in another phase. Even if they come to warm up with a trainer, the trainer may be mounted, rather than on-the-ground. Jumping fences both directions would rapidly become dangerous if there is not a single person "controlling" that fence. While some of the non-competing "Professional Horsemen" might like to see a situation where every rider is "with" a non-competing ground person, for many people the "don't need a trainer there with you" factor is one of the attractive things about eventing. IF we ever DO end up with an "every rider is "with" a non-competing ground person" scenario, at all levels, and at both large and small shows, then a change in warm up might make sense. But to change the rules now (whether or not it is an attempt to encourage riders to hire non-competing trainers to "warm them up") would be VERY DANGEROUS.
Warm up routine

My warm up routine is rather different for jumpers and eventing.
For jumpers (with a trainer) I jump a sequence of fences, of increasing height and width. But almost all of them are taken from a reasonably long, straight, approach.
For eventing (usually without a trainer), I jump the "regulation" height fences, as they are set, but I vary the speed of the approach, and will often jump on an angle, or off a short approach, depending on how the course is set. This works very well for me through Training.
I suspect that, at Prelim and above, the jumper sequence of changing dimensions might actually give a better preparation. But I have, plenty of times, seen Jimmy "warm up" a Prelim and above rider within the current constraints of the Eventing warm up, and without disadvantaging the riders without grounds-person.
Without seeing a specific rule change, it is hard to comment. Within the current rules, there is nothing to stop the organizer adding a 4th and 5th fence that is not pre-identified as "X", "verticle", "oxer". Riders with grounds-people would be free to "claim" these fences, and adjust the dimensions as desired. No rules change needed. Some events have room for another warm up fence, others don't. But you could add a recommednation to have a 4th and 5th fence where practical.

I woud NOT like to see a change to the red and white flags on the warm up fences. That would be really dangerous for the people without a ground person, and for the people, based on many years experience, expecting the jumps to be jumped consistently in one drection.

[cweimer]

I have to believe that the liability associated with having a non-entered rider/horse combination on grounds during a competition will be a deal killer for that idea, regardless of what anyone personally thinks about it. We often run into the same issue with folks who want to school the course after the competition is over.

[deltawave]

IME a fixed order of go in showjumping at Horse Trials is VERY flexible and not always enforced. Unlike dressage or XC, and even there XC times are often "made to work" if the schedule allows.

[Janet]

The second rule change the PHC plans on proposing would allow the competitor more flexibility in what they can do with their horse(s) after said horse is done competing. This seems to refer to the desire to show a horse to a prospective purchaser, and allow a prospectve purchaser to "try" the horse, in the warm up ring.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the current rules that prohibit this- as long as the fences are at the height for the division currently competing, the horse is wearing a number (and the rider has signed releases, is wearing a medical armband, approved helmet, etc.), there is a warm up steward present, and so on.

The organizer has a great deal of discretion in what they will allow, so he should talk to the organizers about what he wants. And in many cases, there are good reasons for not allowing use of the warm up areas after the hose has competed (very small area, footing is getting badly chewed up, warm up steward needs to go home). But I do not see that a rule change is needed.

The rule would state that so long as it does not interfere with the running of the competition, a horse that is through competing may use all existing warm up areas “for any and all business purposes”. There are also plenty of "non-business purposes" for using the warm up areas after the horse has finished competing, most notably restoring confidence of horse or rider, or dealing with an obedience problem. But again, since it is presumably the organizer who would determine what constitutes "interfering with the running of the competition", I don't think any rule change is needed.

[Janet]

IME a fixed order of go in showjumping at Horse Trials is VERY flexible and not always enforced. Unlike dressage or XC, and even there XC times are often "made to work" if the schedule allows.
But still not as flexible as a typical jumper show.

[subk]

I'm a little confused. The rules say that no one but the competitor can ride a horse (other than a groom on a loose rein) from the start of the competition to the end. So are we talking about changing the rules so that horses who have completely finished all three phases can now go back out and be schooled ? Or are we talking about pros bringing non-competing horses to venues for the purpose of making a sale? Would that be non-competing horses making my warm-up more difficult?

Also someone please remind me. Didn't this group put out a release last Spring about how THEY should be the ones to "fix" this safety crisis? So is this the best they can do?

[Kementari]

UGH.

That's about all I can come up with to say at the moment. :dead:

[Fergs]

Ugh is right!

Why can't the pros earn a living Monday through Friday like the rest of us? It's unrealistic to expect organizers and fellow competitors to accommodate them for business purposes while the rest of us are just trying to support the sport and have fun.

We should all be posting these good comments an insights on the USEventing.com blog below where the article appears. Then the PHC and USEA leadership might actually read them!

[JER]

Maybe we should all join the PHC (http://useventing.com/aboutus.php?section=PHC). :lol::lol:

But what does it take?
Mission Statement: The Professional Horseman's Council is composed of active members of the United States Eventing Association who are professionals in all aspects of the sport of Eventing. The purpose of the Council is to facilitate communications between the professionals and the Eventing community, including the governing body, officials, organizers and competitors and to assist in the further development, growth and safety of our sport.

Why do 'communications between the professionals and the Eventing community' need to be 'facilitated'?

I thought the pros were part of the eventing community, not an entity unto themselves who needed to appoint people to 'facilitate communication' with the rest of us. Are our goals so different?

In eventing, like most horse sports, you are a professional if you call yourself one. No other qualifications necessary, except maybe a desire to set yourself apart from your fellow eventers.

So where do I sign up? I'm very professional. I've run a boarding barn, trained/bred/bought/sold horses, taught kids, groomed, you-name-it. But alas, there's no sign up-form. :cry::cry::cry:

This group is hopelessly wrong-headed and in serious need of a reality check and a brain infusion. Perhaps infiltration is our best bet.

[LexInVA]

Sorry JER, but you are not Turtle enough for the Turtle Club.

[GreyDun]

Maybe we should all join the PHC (http://useventing.com/aboutus.php?section=PHC). :lol::lol:

But what does it take?



The USEA publishes all contact information for all USEA Committee Members on the "Committees" section on the website (under the "Inside USEA" tab). If you look at the Committees List (http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/2009_usea_bog_committee_contacts.pdf) (PDF 216K), you can see the contact information for all committee chairs. Maybe you should contact them to see how you can get involved in the PHC?

I know it's a long list - but the PHC section is on page 12.

[JER]

Lex, that would be not 'turtley' enough.

(But still, it hurts. :: sniff :: )

[JER]

Maybe you should contact them to see how you can get involved in the PHC?


I would only get involved with such a group for the purpose of abolishing it.

I don't think it serves our sport at all to have a group of self-appointed "professionals" lobbying to make changes to the sport for their own financial benefit.

I believe that membership in the PHC -- which is, in effect, a business lobby -- should disqualify someone from serving on any other committees or in any other capacity with the USEA or USEF, which are non-profits.

Conflicts of interest should count for something in this world. I don't want my safety or my horses' safety to be compromised by someone's need to make a living off the sport.

[Hilary]

Did anyone read the previous blog about how riding a **** without steeplechase is harder than with, because you don't have a nice easy steeplechase fence to warm up with? It's all you and your horsemanship/riding ability when you get to that big table at fence 2.

He did not say we need to do away with long formats at the * level, but rather opined that it is not a fair question to introduce the ** level without proper education at the lower levels.


But we have that - we have * competitions without steeplechase. So I wonder what the point was?


I really don't have any problem with professional horsemen having a council to represent their needs. Most of us have some version of that in our professions. But what I dislike is an attitude (and maybe it's percieved, trying to give benefit of the doubt here) that those of us who make it possible for people to be professional eventers don't really have a say, or opinions that matter.


Bobby didn't say "my clients really want to jump warm up fences in both directions and I think it will be better for them". He didn't say "My clients really want to try a horse after it's competed" He said HE wanted to be able to do the horse-selling part of his profession at an event.

It's all about spin, baby.

I am very glad that there are folks out there who ride better than I do and want to teach me. Really, I am. But remember it's people like me (well, ok probably people who are a lot wealthier than me), who take your lessons and buy your horses, and buy YOU horses, that allow you to have a profession in riding. Treat me like I could be your equal some day. Not like I will never get there.

[Gnep]

What I find rather interesting is the whole article, the conection, with what it starts.
Red Hill.
Red Hill is probably a very good example for what happens if the amateur does not show up.
I don't think Red Hill could have run if every pro would have shown up.

Instead of taking a hint and looking into that problem, how to get riders to shows, which means how to make it possible for the amateur to go to the shows, they try to make it even more difficult for amateur, impose themself.

They do not get it, no amateurs, no shows, they sound like bankers or wall street, instead of helping to get the cart out of mud, they ask for a bonus.
Arrogant bunch

[LexInVA]

Well spoken points JER. COI is something that has been plaguing the USEF from the beginning and it's certainly been behind many of their decisions and policy pushing.

[snoopy]

I would only get involved with such a group for the purpose of abolishing it.

I don't think it serves our sport at all to have a group of self-appointed "professionals" lobbying to make changes to the sport for their own financial benefit.

I believe that membership in the PHC -- which is, in effect, a business lobby -- should disqualify someone from serving on any other committees or in any other capacity with the USEA or USEF, which are non-profits.

Conflicts of interest should count for something in this world. I don't want my safety or my horses' safety to be compromised by someone's need to make a living off the sport.



Could not agree more!!!


This really is one of the most self serving groups out there.

[Kementari]

I would only get involved with such a group for the purpose of abolishing it.


I would get involved for the purpose of correcting their grammar... :lol:

[JAM]

Am I correct that the second suggestion, if adopted, would allow someone to show a horse that has just completed all three phases of, say, a P, I, or A horse trials to then be shown for sale (i.e., more dressage and jumping) a countless number of times? Put aside conflicts of interest and everything else, this seems to me to be horse abuse, plain and simple.

[LexInVA]

That is one way of interpreting it JER. A somewhat liberal way but certainly logical nonetheless.

[Brandy76]

Okay, color me silly, I glanced at all this briefly before realizing that the PHC was the PHC - the eventing committee!! Yikes. In other words, I thought, PHC - a generic group not related specifically to eventing, thus the suggestions that made no sense. OMG.

I went to the link, and he clearly states the first rule change proposal was
""The PHC has been working on a couple of new rule changes that we feel will make it easier for professionals to do their job at events.:eek:"

Like that should certainly be the priority.:mad:

So, that's the purpose of rule changes now?? And after the sport is in the hot seat for safety reasons??

And, now, it is just assumed that you will have a ground person/trainer/minion to chase you around the warm up??

Oh, this is all turning into such a shame. I haven't evented in 7 years, this to be my first year back, and now I am thinking, hmmm, is it worth it??

[Outyougo]

I just read the proposed rule changes for the SJ warm-up

In the YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!

If we eventers are concerned about the dangers in our sport the two proposed rule changes are a giant step backwards in providing safety at events.

"For those of us that event but also attend recognized USEF hunter/jumper shows, we appreciate how orderly and relatively stress-free the warm-up areas are for these competitions. Instead of the usual cross rail/vertical/oxer that oftentimes at horse trials have 10 or more horses jumping them all at the same time, hunter/jumper show management customarily offer four warm-up fences, all with four standards each. At these shows a coach/trainer/ground person sets one of these jumps for his rider or group of riders whichever way he desires (within the rules of course). This type of warm up proves to be much more efficient. Being able to dictate the dimension of the jump from the beginning of the warm up to the end enables a rider to warm up in much less time, though in a much more relaxed, systematic manner. To say this is also a question of safety would seem an understatement to anyone who has stood in the middle of an eventing show jumping warm up area"


Ok maybe I am a West Coast person and am of little account but out here we do have A and AA shows (electricity and paved roads).

The warm up ring is abysmal! Trainers block out a certain jump as "theirs" and riders jump in any direction regardless of other riders. Ant the gamesmanship "I have to wait for my trainer" delays horses moving thru the SJ phase a lot.

In most Area VII events the organizers are quite good about limiting the number of horses in the SJ warm-up to no more than 5 at a time. Flagging the warm-up jumps and limiting traffic in warm-up areas is really one of the appeals of Eventing over H/J competitions.

It is also important to realize that in the event world not every rider has a personal coach to guard, protect and change the jumps.

Allowing sale horses to use warm-up facilities while others are still competing adds more traffic and confusion. A horse trails is not a "Horse Sale Fair" Yes I do know many horses are sold at competitions--but these sales and trials should not be allowed to interfere with the competitors who have paid and therefore earned the right to use the warm up facility. Surely USEA, the competition organizers and land owners have liability issues with non entered horse/rider combinations using the facility while the USEA competition is going on.

Eventing is still a horse "Sport" not a "business like the HJ game is. I do realize eventing changing. This looks to be an unsafe change designed in the interest of trainers and traders not competitors

[Classic Melody]

Robert Costello responded to my email and clarified that warm up jumps would still be flagged. Thank goodness for that, at least.

[BaroquePony]

"The PHC has been working on a couple of new rule changes that we feel will make it easier for professionals to do their job at events."

Hhmm, Darren and AT are professional. I can't wait to emulate them.

Wow, I just looked out my window and I think my pony passed out in his paddock.

[4Martini]

OK, then I have an idea.

BN gets to go first. Always. Then N, then T, then P. that way the BN folks will be well gone and out of the way by the time the pros need to show their sale horses when they are done riding them in the competition. If you're competing at Prelim you probably can deal with nutso warm ups, but don't make the BN/N riders & horses suffer through any more warm up hell than is necessary.


UGGHH! Please don't. Some us more casual BN riders quite like going last. Esp since I am probably a lot less organized than more experienced competitors and it takes me longer to get everything together. Also, I figure by the time you're going prelim your horse should get on the trailer well :lol:

I would probably be less likely to enter if I had to get up at 4am.

As far as the warm up goes, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE leave the jumps flagged. I'm not sure my weekend warrior brain can handle any more in the warmup.

I do think showing horses on site makes sense - but maybe organizers who are now potentially competing for entries could see this as a selling point. How much does it really add to put up two more jumps?

[RAyers]

...Why do 'communications between the professionals and the Eventing community' need to be 'facilitated'?

I thought the pros were part of the eventing community, not an entity unto themselves who needed to appoint people to 'facilitate communication' with the rest of us. Are our goals so different?

In eventing, like most horse sports, you are a professional if you call yourself one. No other qualifications necessary, except maybe a desire to set yourself apart from your fellow eventers...


JER, I rest my case. You answered my previous post but brought up pretty well educated American athletes (e.g. Danny Ainge was a 2-time Academic All-American at BYU). This group of "professionals" acts neither as professionals nor in an intelligent manner. The PHC acts in an arrogant and condescending manner toward the general masses (e.g. assuming that none of us REALLY knows how to ride or manage a horse) and refuse to even acknowledge that there are plenty of folks who KNOW more and DO more. They continually put their foot in their mouth and wash it down with the ankle.

I hire a pro to train me and develop me as a rider and educate me as a horse person. At the same time I have over 40 years in the horse business as a rider, trainer, vet tech, etc... Now, the PHC implies that I must go beyond that to ensure a consolidation of the sport into a very bad business model. Gnep hit it right on.

At some point these trainers' incestuous relationship with their supporters is going to dry up and they will be nothing more than has-been hacks on broken down ponies. Sadly, this apready happens to many trainers just becasue they don't have the business understanding and when they can't ride, they fade off to the scrap heap of the horse world.

Reed

[GotSpots]

Robert Costello responded to my email and clarified that warm up jumps would still be flagged. Thank goodness for that, at least. If the warmup jumps would still be directionally flagged, is that proposal only to ask organizers to add a fourth jump to the warmup ring and to permit riders and trainers more leeway in how they adjust the jump and its height? Geez, for all the frothing going on, that's not a horrible idea. It may not have been worded the best, but put like that, it's not a bad thing to think about.

Look, the PHC is like any other committee or group: there are some good ideas, there are some terrible ideas, and there are some in between (and ditto the members therein). Many of them are trying to make a living at the sport, they honestly and truly care about their horses and the folks they coach, and they are trying to take care of their families as well. Let's not ascribe evil motives to them right off the bat. Bobby's a good guy, who gives a ton of time to USEF, USEA, and to the sport, and he's been around a long time. He coaches amateurs and young riders, was one of the few ULRs to take a horse to a long format one star last year, and is now roped into trying to herd the cats that are the PHC. Why not assume he might be trying to do something beneficial to the sport?

As for conflict of interest, I have no knowledge of the USEF policies, but I can tell you that USEA not only has a formal COI policy, but takes it seriously.

[RAyers]

Sure there is frothing because it appears that there is NO rule LIMITING the jumps in the warm-up area. So why do we even need a rule? It adds NOTHING to the sport. The proposed idea is frivolous and moot and serves to only aid pros who are already too busy to pay attention to their clients.

If they want more fences, ask the organizer. In this case the PHC is proving they do not even know the rules as written.

EV108:
3. EXERCISE AREAS.
a. Areas suitable for the general exercise of horses must be made available, and must be open during the hours of daylight. The Organizing Committee must inform competitors of the areas that are available for this purpose. Horses may only be exercised in such designated areas, or in the practice areas for Dressage and Jumping.
b. A Dressage exercising area must be provided at a convenient distance from the competition arena. A practice dressage arena should, if possible, be placed at the disposal of the competitors.
c. An exercising area with jumps must be provided at a convenient distance from the start of the Cross-Country and from the Jumping arena. These areas must include at least three adjustable practice fences, including one crossed pole for trotting over, one straight fence and one spread. These obstacles must be marked with red and white flags.

[JER]

Why not assume he might be trying to do something beneficial to the sport?


Because the PHC is emulating the hunter/jumper system and business model.

If I wanted that model, I'd be in that world.

I wouldn't call these motives 'evil' but neither of these proposals would make eventing better for me. I'm very much open to a different way of running the warm-up but the h/j model for warm-up is highly dysfunctional and a good example of what NOT to do.

As for professionals doing business at competitions -- work it out with the organizer and do your business when the competition is over, if the organizer and property owner agrees to it. The rest of us have paid our fees and dues to participate in a competition not, as someone said, a horse fair.

Which makes me ask: would the rule mean that ANYONE can do business at a competition or just 'professionals'? Amateurs can buy and sell their own horses at no risk to their amateur status so if this rule was enacted, I don't see why they couldn't use competitions to try/buy/sell.

[gchildean]

Does Bobby Costello still ride at events? He's certainly on every eventing USEF and USEA committee that he can get on. What precisely is his current connection to the sport other than selling and coaching--and being on governing committees?

Is he just a front man for the PHC in this situation?

Now I know why Avery Brundage was so determined to keep Olympic sport amateur. Talk about changes to benefit one particular group of stakeholders. It's every bit as corrupt as politics and lobbyists. That's right--the whole sport has to be run for the 2%.

Yes, he may not have an advanced horse right now, but he still competes quite often. I believe he has 4 horses going to Pine Top this weekend. 2 Prelim and 2 intermediate. It will be interesting to see how this warm up thing works out at Southern Pines.

[silver pine]

Well it is clearly time for the Amateur Riders Council. If the Pros can have a lobbying council why cant we. Who will lobby and posts on the USEA site requesting things like keeping entry fees reasonable, safety for the horse and rider, you know things that matter to the rest of us.

UGH....

Why should a particular venue contribute to the sales of your project? I'm sure the facility that you work out of has a dressage ring, jumps and all sorts of riding opportunities. Sell your horse there.

I am opposed to the idea of a PHC on principle. It's a glorified lobbyist group. Good riders make good riders, not good safety technicians, not good policy makers, they make good riders. Peter Principal at work- people promoted to their level of incompetence.

S.P.

[gchildean]

Well it is clearly time for the Amateur Riders Council. If the Pros can have a lobbying council why cant we. Who will lobby and posts on the USEA site requesting things like keeping entry fees reasonable, safety for the horse and rider, you know things that matter to the rest of us.



COMPLETELY AGREE!!!

[Janet]

OK, then I have an idea.

BN gets to go first. Always. Then N, then T, then P Bad idea. Each competition has all sorts of factore that affect the order of the divisions.

For example, it is much easier for the jump crew (and therefore much more time effective for the riders) to start with the highest level show jumping course, and "take stuff out" as the levels go down. If you have to add obstacles to creat combinations, there will be a LOT of time consuming measuring and adjusting between levels.

[JAM]

... Why not assume he might be trying to do something beneficial to the sport? ...

What are the benefits to the sport from these proposals?

[JER]

Bad idea. Each competition has all sorts of factore that affect the order of the divisions.

For example, it is much easier for the jump crew (and therefore much more time effective for the riders) to start with the highest level show jumping course, and "take stuff out" as the levels go down. If you have to add obstacles to creat combinations, there will be a LOT of time consuming measuring and adjusting between levels.

Janet, I'm not disagreeing with you. Those are all valid points.

That said, this is how the jumper shows work. The lowest divisions go first, often with extra jumps in the ring that are not included on their course as well as fences that are used in the jump-off. Course changes are done quite easily -- and there are usually more divisions/classes (that require course/height changes) in a jumper show than at a horse trials.

[fooler]

This is my email to Robert (Bobby) and Kevin B
Hello Robert and Kevin

These are my comments as a competitor and as a TD
"The second rule change the PHC plans on proposing would allow the competitor more flexibility in what they can do with their horse(s) after said horse is done competing. For those of us in the PHC, we make our living through the sport of eventing, thus we must be able to conduct business (in addition to coaching) while at the competitions much like our peers in the hunter/jumper and dressage world do. The rule would state that so long as it does not interfere with the running of the competition, a horse that is through competing may use all existing warm up areas “for any and all business purposes”. This would then allow, for example, the showing of a horse that is for sale to a potential buyer. Some events may already allow this if it is done discreetly, but most events won’t allow it. Insurance and liability have a lot to do with their reasoning, which is understandable. Therefore, the PHC will be working with the USEA to see if this roadblock can be cleared so that professionals don’t lose an opportunity to make a living while at an event they are supporting."

Not while the competition ongoing.
There is enough activity and discussion in warm-up areas, especially at the lower levels, without adding more horses and voices. Most competitions held before and after Daylight Savings time run tight schedules due to limited daylight hours. So any delays may and will have an impact on the competition.

We must address what happens when there is an injury during this selling process requiring human or equine medical assistance. And to make things interesting, what if there is an injury involving a competitor on or about the same time? Most organizers have sufficient medical staff to handle competitors on course, i.e. 1 team if running only SJ or XC, 2 teams if running both SJ and XC. Now we are possibly taking resources from the competition to aid individuals no longer involved in the competition. I suggest the professionals showing a horse at competitions pay a fee, or 5% of the sale price whichever is greater, to the organizer to cover the expense of adding another medical crew to cover this eventuality. Or better yet, if professionals wish to show a horse, they may do so after the competition has ended.

Having a fourth warm-up fence plus adding a second set of standards to the remaining three has some validity. One thing to note is many people arrive at events alone and must depend on “the kindness of strangers” to set fences. Also even if you do have a coach, he or she may be warming-up another student for dressage or cross-country.
However, All fences should remain flagged so all everyone knows where to look for on-coming traffic.

"I have proposed to the USEA Organizers Committee that for 2009, competitors whose entries are postmarked on the opening date will not be charged any “office fee” should they have to scratch a horse before the closing date (i.e. entry and stabling/grounds fee will be fully refunded) nor will they have to pay a “change fee” should they need to amend their entry before or after the closing date."

As someone who has evented on a shoe-string budget this sounds great. However this should be left to the discretion of the organizing committee. They understand the impact on these changes may have on their staff, which may be very limited and their internal schedule.
Thank you both for your service to this great sport.
Regards,
Jean Grizzell, rEVTD
USEA #30799
USEF #230049

[ZiggyStardust]

Honestly to me, when I read the blog, a couple of different statements stand out. The first is:

"Competitors warm up habits cannot be expected to change overnight, however, so there will still need to be a couple of jumps for the rider without help on the ground to utilize."

The context is that he really seems to be driving at the idea that warm-up should be changed so that all riders are in groups with trainers who are coaching them over the warm-up fences, and that PHC believes the ideal is that one day there will be no event riders warming-up on their own.

"The purpose of a rule change that spells out what our warm-up areas need to offer is so riders will arrive at the in gate better prepared to answer, once in the competition arena, the questions asked by the course designer." This seems to imply that this change would fall under the "safety" umbrella, except that earlier in the paragraph he states that this is especially in need before the show jumping phase?

In his discussion on allowing business to be conducted in the warm-up, he admits that insurance and liability would be roadblocks that PHC/USEA would need to clear, but does not say who he thinks should pay for this. Would there have to be an entry fee increase so that all the clueless amateurs can subsidize the professionals "opportunity to make a living while at an event they are supporting." Well shiver me timbers, I didn't realize professionals needed special opportunities over the amateurs who are also "at an event they are supporting."

I know there are many of you that have a much greater vested interest in this than I do (I rarely show these days), but I think eventing is going the way of H/J and dressage in that amateurs are increasingly encouraged to become totally dependent on coaches. I absolutely believe that eventers need coaches particularly to help them learn to negotiate cross country safely, but just as a horse needs to be able to think for itself, so does a rider, to get herself out of problems.

The best cross country round I've had to date was at a one-day schooling show (only the 2nd for my new horse and me, an adult re-rider - ETA this was at the Novice level) where my coach couldn't attend. I had to use my training to walk the course, make a plan myself, and warm my horse up, and our ride was nearly foot perfect and I have never loved my horse more than right after that round, for all that we had accomplished on our own. I cried. Anyway, sorry for the novel.

[retreadeventer]

When I first read the blog at the USEA site yesterday, I thought to myself...ought to check the COTH board a bit later in the day and see what frothing at the mouth has developed over THOSE thoughts....hahhaha!!! :)

I like to look at the "whys" in back of these proposals.
Why change warmup areas? To facilitate schedules. More horses, more warmup bodies/horses, need more jumps in order to not have to wait to get to fences. Keep things running on time, get done and get home - we all have an interest in that from the dust-eating warmup kid to the jump judges to the officials to the organizer to the parking lot Boy Scouts. Maybe the problem is that we probably need as a sport to pay a bit more attention to warmup areas - adjacent, decent footing, enough jumps for competitors, enough warmup stewards. I think events with a large number of competitors really do need to pay better attention to warmup. I am thinking of Fair Hill's stadium/cross country warmup - the spot is on a slight slope, it's small, it can be muddy or dusty depending upon conditions - the grass is very worn by the jumps and cut up everywhere else - and no way adequate in my opinion for 300 riders. If you have the bad luck to go at the end of the order you had better have the farrier on speed dial bec. the footing just sucks up there. Improving warmup facilities: good idea. The way he wants to: bad idea.
Why show horses at events? Convenience. Everyone is there. The horse is there. The tack and jumps are there. Don't have to go home and make an appointment. Lots of advantages to the seller of course, seeing the horse go out of home environment, having potential buyer watch the horse go before trying it and not to mention it's been out and ridden all day and QUIETER for the novice or amateur purchaser to try. Well, convenience is not a good reason to subject a horse to additional work, add to warmup congestion, invoke liability issues, make officials and volunteers stay longer, etc. Competitions are for competing, not business. Take the horse to a sale if you want to sell it. Changing the one-rider rule: Bad idea. Have a feeling that's not the real reason anyhow. They just want to be able to get on horses and school them for riders.

[Janet]

Janet, I'm not disagreeing with you. Those are all valid points.

That said, this is how the jumper shows work. The lowest divisions go first, often with extra jumps in the ring that are not included on their course as well as fences that are used in the jump-off. Course changes are done quite easily -- and there are usually more divisions/classes (that require course/height changes) in a jumper show than at a horse trials.
It is the "always" that bothers me.

The jumper shows that I go to have a professional, PAID, experienced jump crew that is VERY efficient at accurately making course changes.
Most of the events I go to have a volunteer jump crew that is neither experienced nor efficient.

[enjoytheride]

I have been to HJ shows and eventing shows and I will not go to an HJ show without a trainer. At an HJ show it is not unheard of for someone to raise "their" warmup fences to prevent you from jumping it. So you need to wait until whoever owns that fence is done using it as long as they need it and hope that you have someone on the ground to take over for you and dominate your fence.

[flea]

1. Potential buyer has had 3 phases to observe the horse, namely dressage, stadiium, xc.
2. Is the rule that no one is allowed to ride the horse but the competitor just until that horse has finished competing or until the whole event is over?
3. Does a horse that has just finished an event need to be saddled up and jumped again either by its rider or buy the potential buyer? Not in my opinion.

And I love the reference to our warm up habits that must be changed! I mostly compete with my trainer there but sometimes not. I like the organization of our warm up and feel comfortable with or without a trainer. Not so in the h/j warrm ups we have attended.

[flutie1]

My interpretation was that the pros would bring along sales horses to "show" after they compete.
A friend e mailed me this morning and asked if I thought Bobby had been smoking crack when he submitted that proposal - or maybe the whole PHC had been smoking it?

[LexInVA]

Hookah party perhaps?

[asterix]

I responded on the blog itself, hopefully RC will read those comments.

This is ridiculous. Everyone has already stated the many good reasons why -- and I can only imagine how much fun it will be in warmup to have a BNT trying to sell a horse to someone while you are warming up for your round.

But, as I said in my blog post, I would mostly like to suggest that the esteemed members of the PHC spend even HALF of one day actually RUNNING warmup at the horse trial of their choice. I would be willing to bet the entry fee of my next event that none of these folks have done this job within the past 5 years.

Once they've completed this task, then they can come up with rule changes to make everyone's day better. And "everyone" had da** well include the volunteer who spends 10 hours in the blazing heat or pouring rain setting the fences back up that they knock over, making sure order reigns, getting folks over to SJ in time so we finish before dark, etc etc.

Sorry, but this really touched a nerve with me.

[JER]

Does anyone else find it absolutely hilarious that some of the same folks who are pushing these rule change proposals are the ones who banned **mules** from eventing because they thought they'd be 'too disruptive'?

[HT Mom]

Not to completely steal this thread, but as the Show Jumping steward for the HTs at the Carolina Horse Park, what things might you want to see in Show Jumping warm-up to make things run more smoothly and/or safer?

Also, how many jumps do you usually take before you and your horse are ready to do your Show Jumping round. I agree with PeagusMom that there are some riders and trainers who do too much in warm-up (30+ jumps). Is this really needed?

[JER]

Not to completely steal this thread, but as the Show Jumping steward for the HTs at the Carolina Horse Park, what things might you want to see in Show Jumping warm-up to make things run more smoothly and/or safer?


HT Mom, BC's blog post says the Southern Pines HT has agreed to try the 'new' configuration he proposes.

As Show Jumping steward at CHP (the venue for SP HT), did anyone discuss this with you before the decision was made? If so, what are your thoughts?

[LexInVA]

This is starting to feel like a David Lynch movie...

[deltawave]

what things might you want to see in Show Jumping warm-up to make things run more smoothly and/or safer?

A steward who is empowered to keep the number of people warming up to a reasonable number that the space can handle. If this means yanking people who are schooling a horse that's not competing, so be it. If it means limiting people to a 15-20 minute warmup on a day when the schedule is impossibly tight, so be it. If things are very quiet and the schedule is easy, by all means relax the restrictions a little. This, again, means a knowledgeable, tuned in steward who has figurative TEETH and not just a radio and a clipboard. :)

I love the idea of four, maybe even SIX jumps if space allows. But they should NOT be allowed to be manipulated up or down beyond maybe one or two holes, and then only temporarily. We all need to share. If you need to school your horse a foot higher or lower than he'll be jumping in stadium, your homework isn't done yet. Do that at home.


Also, how many jumps do you usually take before you and your horse are ready to do your Show Jumping round. I agree with PeagusMom that there are some riders and trainers who do too much in warm-up (30+ jumps). Is this really needed?

Usually I trot the crossrail twice, canter it once, trot the vertical once, canter it twice, do the oxer once or twice, and maybe one or two more to check the turning and adjustments. Usually no more than 10-12 jumps, sometimes a good bit less, especially at a one-day show.

[HT Mom]

I learned about the changes in the SJ warm-up along with everyone else when the information was posted on the useventing.com web site. To be honest, it really scares me what is being proposed. I agree that this may work in the H/J world, but I don't think it can work in the Eventing world, especially when you have an already established order-of-go that is reverse order of standings.

[Gnep]

The PHC, is a rather bad Organisation, that drives a huge wedge into eventing. It is only concerned with the needs of a rather small group of people. Worst of all they realy beleave they are the Ones.
Show me one rule change in the last 24 month that has benefited the amateur. Every single rule change, especialy the so called safety rules do in one way ore the other favour the pros, that is the handwriting of the PHC.

Eventing can exist without the pros, very good, 2 % are not a market, 2% will not fill starting lists.
Eventing just for Pros, not feasable.

So now my question, why does the USEA open its Website to a organisation like that, do they pay? , is the USEA bought, 2%, remember, and they have now their blog, and YOU pay for it with YOUR fees next thing YOU will pay with YOUR entry money for the PHC Members horse sales.

Trust me that rule will go through. And when you are trying to warm up your horse and yourself for your stadium and dressage and X-C you will have to ask Mr. Costello and his crowed if you can jump a jump.
YOU pay 200 Dollars and you will have to ask for the right a way in the warm up area, because some pro is conducting business.
Eventing is not there for pros to make money, it is for US to have fun, WE pay the bill.
Pros have to create a business plan that will fit into OUR eventing.
Eventing does not, by all means, have to adjust to the pros needs.

Eventing can live without those Pros, but it can not live without the amteurs.

I strongly feel it is time for a Amateur Organisation, that will put the Pros into their place, they just have done everyting possible to screw this sport up.

[SevenDogs]

Also, how many jumps do you usually take before you and your horse are ready to do your Show Jumping round. I agree with PeagusMom that there are some riders and trainers who do too much in warm-up (30+ jumps). Is this really needed?

Lower level competitor here -- I usually jump approximately ten jumps total (including trotting the cross rail a couple of times). Occasionally a couple more, occasionally a few less (hot conditions, etc).

[subk]

If you need to school your horse a foot higher or lower than he'll be jumping in stadium, your homework isn't done yet. Do that at home.

Usually I trot the crossrail twice, canter it once, trot the vertical once, canter it twice, do the oxer once or twice, and maybe one or two more to check the turning and adjustments. Usually no more than 10-12 jumps, sometimes a good bit less, especially at a one-day show.
If you school your horse a foot higher then your division you can be disqualified--not Eliminated but the more serious Disqualified--the limit is 4" higher than your division. Which begs the question, if BN is competing and someone is trying a horse jumping anything bigger than 2'11" in the warm-up then a BN rider could easily (accidently or on purpose) jump a fence that is illegal for their division. Since BN generally rides at the end of the day and is 4" lower than Novice this is a very likely scenario.

I'm with DW, on a good day I trot the cross rail once or twice, maybe canter it once, jump the vertical once or twice then the oxer once. I have on occasion happily competed after 4-5 warm-up jumping efforts. It would be highly unusual for me to jump more than a dozen times. The way I see it it's a warm-up, not a schooling session, not a lesson--drives me crazy to be in a warm-up with someone getting a lesson from their coach.

[gahawkeye]

huh???
"Ultimately, as we go about making eventing more “professional friendly” we must insure that what is good for the PHC is good for the sport as well."

Why does the sport need to be more "professional friendly"???

In talking with some 'old timer' trainers a couple weeks ago (folks of the LeGoff era) something was mentioned about some advice given awhile ago in that you don't want riders galloping down to solid fences that are worrying about making the mortgage payment (or feed bill, etc.) by the success of the ride. This ultimately puts the horse and the rider in danger.

On the warm up issue ... I've been to the H/J warm up and it may be civilized, but only if you have your paid trainer and grooms working your jump for you! Yikes, its crazy -- people jumping fences from both ways, schooling higher/wider than needed, taking 'ownership' of jump if you don't have your ground crew.... oh but this would make things more 'professional friendly' as riders become more dependent on the professional than ever.

But remember.... the professional still wants to ride 6 horses at each event AND have you dependent on them for the warm up. Pretty soon we'll be holding the dressage, cross country starts and jump rings because 'my trainer isn't here to watch me'! Remember, if they don't watch, they don't get paid....

I've done the cc warm up steward role a time or two and I have actually heard a rider tell me that they can't go yet because their coach has a conflict in the dressage and can't be there to warm her up. I remind her that this isn't the hunter ring.

But if the PHC gets their way it may be soon. :-(

[Kementari]

I'm with those who take maybe 10-12 warm-up jumps, max. I've comfortably done as few as three or four. Once I did none (someone was injured in the warm-up and, though some continued jumping while the ambulance was called, I didn't feel like that was terribly responsible), and did OK (we had a refusal - one of only three total ever, SJ & XC combined - but it was my fault). If you need 30-40 warm-up jumps, you don't belong at a show with that horse, no matter WHO you are.

And the day you have to have a coach (or even a ground person) to effectively warm up at an event is the day I find another sport. :no:

[Janet]

2. Is the rule that no one is allowed to ride the horse but the competitor just until that horse has finished competing or until the whole event is over?
The rulebook says
2. RESTRICTIONS ON SCHOOLING HORSES.
a. It is forbidden, under penalty of disqualification, for anyone other than the competitor who will ride the horse in the competition to school the horse during the competition. This period of restriction begins at 3:00 pm of the day prior to the start of the entire competition. which could be interpreted either way.

The TDs I have asked, have given permission to have another rider shcool the horse after THAT HORSE has finished competing, even though the competition was still going on. But I wouldn't do it without asking the TD.

[RegentLion]

This just bothers me more than I can say. The horse is there to compete. Asking them to be "tried" after competing is just poor horsemanship IMO. Nor does it provide a true representation of what the horse is like to ride normally.

And no, sales tryouts before the competition or during the competition won't work either -as that can morph into trainers prepping horses all too easily.



AGREE with the Poor Horsemanship comment.

I must admit I'm not exactly sure what the PHC is all about, and I haven't evented since 2006 (and at that time was at the BN/N levels). I want to get back into it someday and don't want to see it "ruined."

I will NEVER forget going to my first hunter show after eventing. TERRIFYING warmup. Everyone going everywhere and people yelling and no discernible pattern of how to pass others when going in opposite directions.... and so on.

Why are people so hell-bent on changing this sport?:confused:

[flyingchange]

I haven't had time to read through this entire thread. Just JER's post with the 2 new rule change proposals, from the Professional Horsesass Council.

Umm, all I can say is .... OMFG.

Tried to think of something else, but again, all I come up with is OMFG.

Please, please, please, please, please let these rule changes not pass.

I wish these prima donnas would just have their own little circuit with their own little shows in FL and NY depending on the season, and leave the rest of us alone.

[Robby Johnson]

The longer I stay out of the eventing ring, the less I miss it. It would certainly seem that there is a tremendous amount of energy invested in making eventing something it's not, as opposed to evolving it responsibly to be what it is.

[JER]

I think Jon Holling said it best at the end of his comment post (http://useventing.com/blog/?p=1963#comment-258) on the USEA blog:

After all without amateurs we would not be professionals!

Oh lordy...

[blackwly]

Wow, this is just so frustrating.

I have routinely "cross-trained" all of my eventers in show jumping for years, here in Nashville at our AA shows, in Ocala at HITS, and in California. In my mind, the absolute worst thing about that experience, in every case, is the HJ warmup. I almost always compete at those shows on my own, but it finally got to the point where I will PAY a random stranger to stand there and adjust my fences to my instructions because it is simply impossible to warmup otherwise. And I am not picky. I could deal very easily with jumping 3 or 4 random fences and going in to jump a 4 ft round on most of my horses (not ideal, but possible.) But you literally run into situations where trainers or groundpeople will stand in front of "their" fence to keep you from jumping it even if they have no one in the warmup at all. To think that eventing could come to this....

I can certainly understand that having readily adjustable fences makes for a nicer warmup for the person with their "crew." I agree that it is hard to prepare for an intermediate stadium round with 3 fences...since you usually don't want to skip from the 18inch crossrail to a 4 foot vertical. But the fences are adjustable. And our culture is such that if you hop over a small vertical while someone has it dropped down, and then ask them to leave it up at 4ft for 30 seconds before you go in the ring, people generally understand and agree. I find it laughable that Costello seems to think this change to warmup evens out the playing field, because it does just the opposite. The rider with a "team" gets the ultimate self-structured warmup, while the poor soul who is alone, or has their trainer on the other side of the property, is left with 2 set fences. Try warming up for an intermediate round with 2 set fences (and 80% of the horses in the warmup going over them, because the other 2 fences are taken over by two specific crews.) Not exactly ideal circumstances.

So, I guess I'll just decide to follow some trainer's student over their nice, progressive, tailored warmup fence for the entire time I'm out there and get some free training while I'm at it! I'm sure they won't mind!

[Thames Pirate]

As someone who has not EVER in my eventing career had a coach at the actual event (okay, not true--once he was there, but he didn't warm me up for either jumping phase or walk any courses with me), I find it discriminatory. I'm lucky if I have a family member or a friend (horsey or non) to set a fence or pick up a knocked rail, but I don't have the luxury of a trainer.

I have a hard enough time warming up with trainers finding it necessary to give a whole lesson. I have gotten dirty looks and eye-rolls from all sorts because they yelled at Janey to come around to the oxer--and I jumped it first (even if Janey was miles away). I don't know who Janey is, and I am almost always the one to yield when someone else is approaching the jumps. Don't treat me as a lesser being because I jumped the jump when Janey was 12 strides out and still making her turn. I paid the same entry fee as Janey.

I am not picky about my warm-up--I will figure out how to make do with the fences as you have them set at the moment (when you drop the vertical for Janey I will jump it, and when you raise the oxer I will jump it). I don't ask for much, and a few jumps generally does the trick for me. If anything it makes me a better horseman having to decide how to make the best use of what's available to me (height wise, space wise, etc) and the time allotted. That's fine. I just don't have access to a trainer at shows. Quite frankly I love the independence (though at times it's frustrating) and the satisfaction of knowing how to warm us up myself.

I have less of a problem with the "showing a horse" scenario (provided insurance, etc. is covered and it doesn't interfere with competition). I figure the professionals showing the horse are not going to risk injury by allowing a few minutes of riding after a SJ round of 10 warm up fences and 12 fences on course (even trying the horse over a few fences--honestly we ride them harder when we school, and we're not talking about a lengthy trial). It doesn't strike me as abusive per se (depending on the situation), though certainly it allows for abuse. My concern is the ability to adjust heights--if I am making do with the fences as set by whichever trainer is standing near a jump, I sure as heck don't want it a foot above competition height right before I'm supposed to do my course. My other concerns include crowding. I remember a talented Novice rider on a talented but a bit flighty horse once joining the Training XC warm-up (we rode early, Novice rode late in the day) to take the edge off her horse and to get him focused by doing a schooling session (rather than a warm-up). They were competing, wearing all required gear, competent to handle the height (schooling even higher at home), etc. Another horse came up behind them, setting off her horse, who promptly bucked her off badly. Not her fault at all (the other horse literally slammed into them from behind while they were traveling straight), but the medics still had to check her out and the warm-up had to shut down briefly. Not only did it mess with competitors' warm-ups, the medics, and the running of the course, but it shattered the nerves of the people in the warm up (including myself--sapped my already strained confidence and took away the opportunity to jump a few more to get myself back into rhythm--we withdrew). Do we really want more people in the warm-up?

ETA: As Outyougo said, we're lucky here in the PNW--shows restrict numbers in the warm-up, and organizers overall make for a fairly pleasant experience. I have never been as nervous about the warm-up out here as I was back east (I moved here from Area III). Having also been a ground person on both coasts, I'll say that Area VII is pretty nice. Restricted warm-ups (over jumps--there's usually an open area for flat warm-up so you can spend as much time as you need) are a wonderful thing. If you can't be ready to go in the allotted time, do your homework.

[gchildean]

Jon Holling has been responding to the blog on the USEA site. He has cleared things up a bit especially about the warm up change. This is what he said:

"That is why we are proposing to keep the standard warm-up areas the same as they are right now. We want to keep the cross rail, vertical, and oxer setup we have, and then add an addition one or two jumps when space is available. No room? No additional jumps."

If this is actually the case, then I don't have any problem with.

[KellyS]

The longer I stay out of the eventing ring, the less I miss it. It would certainly seem that there is a tremendous amount of energy invested in making eventing something it's not, as opposed to evolving it responsibly to be what it is.

You summed up my feelings perfectly.

You know...how many of us decided NOT to pursue a career as a professional in the industry because it is a hard way to make a living? So, we went and got a good education, found a great career or job, and have the means to go out and enjoy the horses on our own terms.

The attitude of many of these professional riders that we (the amateurs) are a bunch of peons that are strictly there as a cash cow for them, whether it's paying for lessons/training, buying horses for them, or paying them commissions to buy horses for us, is frankly infuriating. I can find my own horse, thank you very much, and am perfectly happy competing at an event without a trainer because I've done my homework at home. But now I'm supposed to move out of the way, so we can make eventing like a hunter/jumper show. I don't think so.

They act we owe them a living. Well, if you can't make a living without stepping all over the people that you use to make that living, then go find another job. Okay, rant over.

[EmmyTheHemi]

Simplify, don't complicate.

Please, please, please, I beg the rule-making bodies: leave fence heights and directionality alone in the warmup areas. It's already complex enough, especially for us lowly smurfs. Safety considerations should encourage reduced hazards in a confined space, not introduce more variables.

If organizers have the space, time, personnel and equipment to set up a separate "trial ring" that's not interfering with the actual competitors, then go for it, I guess. Wouldn't that be easier on the ring management volunteers? I'm glad I'm not an organizer, having to figure out how to track an entered (competing or non-competing) horse-rider combo, which suddenly becomes a different horse-rider combo for 20 minutes at a time.

[GotSpots]

What are the benefits to the sport from these proposals? As I read Jon Holling's comments on USEA's blog, as well as the responses from Bobby, the proposal is to add a fourth/fifth fence in warmup if space is available that may be raised or lowered by a ground person to a rider's preference, rather than maintained solely at one height, and all warm up fences will remain flagged to be jumped solely in one direction. Gee, I think that's a pretty decent idea: give riders more latitude in warming up their horse before going into the ring, while leaving the set fences for folks who don't have a ground person and/or don't want to do much. I know I have one horse that would really benefit from jumping a big square oxer before he goes in the ring; I have another who is allergic to wood anyway and doesn't need that type of tune up. Giving riders permission to expand their warmup without changing the status quo for everyone else just gives folks more options to tailor their warmup to their horse - which means, hopefully, better SJ and thus better sport.

As for permitting folks to try a horse or school a horse after the end of a competition - seriously, why not? I'm an amateur, I have a full time job, it's hard enough for me to get away from work/real life to ride and show. Say I'm looking for a new horse, and I happen to be down at Southern Pines to compete. There's a nice Training or Prelim horse that's competing there and I watch him/her go and like what I see. So long as I stay out of everyone else's way, what's the harm in letting me sit on him after he's done competing to see if it's worth a trip back down to try him more seriously? We're all in the same place, and saves me a drive. Of course you don't want folks getting in the way of warmup of those competing, and thus I would want any such rule change to permit the warmup ring steward to limit or restrict horse trying if it's interfering with that, but I guess I really just don't see the huge downside to these two proposals.

I'm as classic an amateur as they come, and am a huge fan of amateurs in eventing, and goodness knows I jump up and down about some issues, but this one just doesn't seem to me to be worth all the hubbub once we figure out what it's actually about. If we don't want an "us vs. them" mentality in the sport, seems to me that we amateurs ought not to be quite so quick to beat the drum.

[asterix]

In addition to my suggestion that the PHC members go volunteer once in a while, I have another one.
Next time, get Jon Holling to write up your announcements, not Bobby Costello.

I am trying to think about this from a competitor's and volunteer's point of view, and if I interpret what they've said on the blog very charitably, this is what I am imagining:

SJ or XC warmup has room for 6 fences (ours doesn't, but whatever): 3 of them are somehow marked "normal" and 3 of them are marked "professionals." The warmup steward keeps an eye on the 3 normal fences, which have to follow the fairly strict rules about height/width/setup for the level being run. The warmup steward keeps an eye on how many riders are in that area -- in our case we have a fenced arena and we really have to limit this to 6-8 next to go.
Meanwhile, over in "professional" land, there is a crew raising/lowering, there may be a sale horse or two jumping much bigger/smaller than the level, etc. The warmup steward cannot possibly police this, and should not be asked to. It is hard enough to find competent folks willing to stand out there all day, much less ones who want to actively sign up to go make waves with BNTs.


Certainly it will bother neither competitors nor volunteers if people are showing sale horses in areas that are no longer in active use for the day...IF the footing is in good shape for the next day, and IF everything is left the way it is for the next day.

[deltawave]

Just musing--at Richland this last year they did have two sets of 3 warmup jumps for SJ, separated by quite a good distance. Seemed to work out very nicely.

Maybe instead of getting up in arms, the rule amendment could simply be a request for more fences available in the jumping warmup areas? :)

[Hilary]

I am going to amend my previous rant.

After reading Jon's comments, I am fine with adding a 4th fence, if there is space, that can be adjusted as people need.

We all jumped on the "just like hunters/jumpers" sentence and assumed that Bobby also meant to remove the flags and have a free for all. He wasn't clear, his tone was a bit demeaning and we all panicked.

[asterix]

agreed, Hilary; Jon's comments made it much clearer.

But I do not think it is at all reasonable to ask that the warmup steward have to step in and tell a BNT that s/he has to leave, or refrain from showing a horse. I am very sorry to say this, but in my fairly extensive experience AS a warmup steward, there are polite BNTs and not so polite BNTs. There are a few of us who return over and over again to volunteer at our home or favorite horse trial, but most volunteers will never come back again after a tongue lashing by a BNT for trying to do her job. Ask me how I know.

So if we have unlimited space, and there is a set of jumps well separated, sure, that's fine. Just know that the rules currently in place about keeping the warmup fences close to the size of the level being run, and keeping them straightforward, for everyone, will have to be thrown out. That separate area will be a free for all unless there is a dedicated volunteer over there.

If you have a smaller space, I don't see this working. If I tell my warmup volunteer that we have room for 8, and she lets 2 sale horses in during a quiet time, and then suddenly all the novice junior riders show up in a clump (of course, this NEVER happens:winkgrin:), she then has to go KICK those sale horses out.

That is going to be tough for a lot of volunteers to do in the real world.

[Janet]

Now I REALLY want to see what the actual rule change proposals are.

For the first proposal (more flexibility in warm up) it isn't clear that a rule change is needed, though it certainly wouldn't hurt to say "additional warm up fences are desirable if space is available".

It isn't clear whether or not thay are also asking for an exemption to 108.3 d), in particular the restriction that "fences may not be raised more than 10 cm (4 inches)" above the current competition height.

While I thing that some of the restrictions in EV 108.3 d are not really needed , they are all safety based (some driven by actual bad accidents) so I do not think there should be a blanket exemption for the "extra fences" . In particular, I fear that you woud get some brave but foolhardy kids raising the fences WAY above their level "for fun".

For the second proposal (allowing someone else to ride the horse after the horse has finished competing, but while the competition is still going on) all that is needed is a minor modification to EV 108.2 a) changing

"This period of restriction begins at 3:00 pm of the day prior to the start of the entire competition."
to
"This period of restriction begins at 3:00 pm of the day prior to the start of the entire competition, and ends when the horse has finished competing and has a final score."

What is permitted after the horse has "finished" would then be at the discretion of the organizers, and not covered by the Eventing rules.

[retreadeventer]

I responded on the blog itself, hopefully RC will read those comments.

This is ridiculous. Everyone has already stated the many good reasons why -- and I can only imagine how much fun it will be in warmup to have a BNT trying to sell a horse to someone while you are warming up for your round.

But, as I said in my blog post, I would mostly like to suggest that the esteemed members of the PHC spend even HALF of one day actually RUNNING warmup at the horse trial of their choice. I would be willing to bet the entry fee of my next event that none of these folks have done this job within the past 5 years.

Once they've completed this task, then they can come up with rule changes to make everyone's day better. And "everyone" had da** well include the volunteer who spends 10 hours in the blazing heat or pouring rain setting the fences back up that they knock over, making sure order reigns, getting folks over to SJ in time so we finish before dark, etc etc.

Sorry, but this really touched a nerve with me.

Warmup ring Stewards UNITE!!! :)))
Let's write our OWN proposal.

It should go something like this:
"Competitors should expect to provide gratuities in the amount of 10 percent or $25/per horse ridden (whichever is greater) to the warmup steward in charge of the arena, payable upon entering.
Riders MUST check in on time (or just untack and go home).
Riders may NOT adjust fences at all, whatsoever, for any reason. If you touch a fence or your trainer touches a fence you will be eliminated and your little dog, too!
All decorum and rules of the road apply.
No one is allowed to talk above a respectful whisper in the warmup ring for any reason. Yelling or speaking above a conversational tone will result in elimination of every rider the trainer has on the grounds. Off with their heads!
All riders must say thank-you upon leaving the warmup area. Not saying thank you is grounds for elimination.
All riders must wear watches and check the time of day by LOOKING AT THEIR WATCHES before asking the warmup steward what time it is.
It is forbidden to ask how many horses are going before you. Look at the board or send someone up to watch the other horses go who can inform you.
All riders MUST exit when the ring steward says leave for dragging or watertruck IMMEDIATELY, they must stop instantly, turn around, and head for the exit or risk waterboard torture.
If anyone does anything wrong they must apologize and be polite or risk elimination!
Anyone disobeying these rules will be ELIMINATED forthwith."

:D

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm as classic an amateur as they come, and am a huge fan of amateurs in eventing, and goodness knows I jump up and down about some issues, but this one just doesn't seem to me to be worth all the hubbub once we figure out what it's actually about. If we don't want an "us vs. them" mentality in the sport, seems to me that we amateurs ought not to be quite so quick to beat the drum.


I'm with you on this one. Although I'm not sure a rule change is in order. Nothing currently prevents additional warm up jumps.

As for trying horses at a competition.....I wouldn't want someone else getting on them again after a full event....and I doubt many pros want that as well. Now what I *think* they want to allow is someone to be able to try a horse DURING the competition but perhaps after the competition is done for the day. For example, an event spread out over 3-4 days, horse does their dressage test only on Friday, potential purchaser tries horse late in the day (in a warm up empty of stewards and competitiors after signing releases etc.). If they love the horse and put in an offer....you pull them from the rest of the competion...if they don't, you continue on. Horse didn't work terrible hard doing their dressage test, and pro will stop the "tryout" if the rider is unsuitable so it isn't like you have put a ton a stress on them. But that is currently NOT allowed by the rules. I'm not sure how I feel about this.....to me it is a bit of a slippery slope. I also think what would be added to any such rule is the descretion of the organizer....they could always say NO or charge a fee but the rules themselves wouldn't prohibit the possibility.

[deltawave]

I'd add "riders who do not leave the course walk when the course walk is declared over will be run over with the Zamboni thing. Or the first horse on course has permission to run them over." :D

The way I read the "trying out a horse" proposal, it stipulated that the horse had to be done competing. Whether that's for the day or the weekend, of course, is debatable. But would anyone really let someone try out their horse in the middle of a show? I guess I have seen this happen on one or two occasions, but it was literally a 10 minute walk-trot-canter thing and the only thing that I remember thinking was "Gee, this rider must care more about selling the horse than how their weekend is going". Which of course is perfectly possible and I guess not objectionable when one's goal is to sell horses. It's just sort of--cold, I guess.

[JAM]

Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to the horse who has just had a very long day of competing and possibly trailering (and more trailering to come) (and this puts aside all the other issues, which are not so easily solved, I don't think). I still don't see how this is beneficial to the sport, as opposed to more convenient for the sellers and a handful of buyers.



.... As for permitting folks to try a horse or school a horse after the end of a competition - seriously, why not? I'm an amateur, I have a full time job, it's hard enough for me to get away from work/real life to ride and show. Say I'm looking for a new horse, and I happen to be down at Southern Pines to compete. There's a nice Training or Prelim horse that's competing there and I watch him/her go and like what I see. So long as I stay out of everyone else's way, what's the harm in letting me sit on him after he's done competing to see if it's worth a trip back down to try him more seriously? ....

[subk]

As has been pointed out previously, IF the organizer wants add to the number of fences in the warm up there is nothing currently preventing them from doing so. The rule they want to change isn't about the number of fences it's about allowing warm-ups to become more crowded with horse and rider combos unknown to each other and allowing fences in warm-up that could get most of the people in the warm-up DQed if they jump them. (Keep in mind the penalty is a DQ--much more serious than an E!)

How mad is the first BN/N competitor who gets disqualified for jumping the "wrong fence" in warm-up going to be? Why do we want to add to the responsibility of policing this to the job of the steward?

What happens when a less than skillful rider is in warm-up on a horse that is not an appropriate mount for them--which of course they wouldn't have known yet, because they will have never ridden that horse. Having had to scratch in warm-up after being kicked by a competing horse ridden by a less than skillful rider I can only imagine how upset I'd be if the same thing happens with a non-competing horse in the warm-up.

The last question I'd ask is how smart is it to ride a horse you have limited knowledge of for the very first time in a active warmup ring. Does it enhance the safety of our warm-ups--something we should be more attuned to now than ever? Would you do it? Would a "horseman" do it?

[enjoytheride]

If you read the actual blog it is actually very clear.

At these shows a coach/trainer/ground person sets one of these jumps for his rider or group of riders whichever way he desires (within the rules of course). This type of warm up proves to be much more efficient. Being able to dictate the dimension of the jump from the beginning of the warm up to the end enables a rider to warm up in much less time, though in a much more relaxed, systematic manner.

Competitors warm up habits cannot be expected to change overnight, however, so there will still need to be a couple of jumps for the rider without help on the ground to utilize.

While there may have been some back tracking the original proposal did not just say "more fences please" It clearly says that they wish to allow a trainer to control a fence for his riders and allow those riders to jump the fence in any direction or any width or height they want.

The second part says "for those of you that can't get with the system and come with a trainer we'll pony up a couple fences in a corner for you loosers"

So this proposal favors the rider who has a trainer to control a fence and raise, lower, jump it in either direction. While accomodating the people without a trainer until their jumping habits change and they start bringing a trainer to every show.

Further I have seen hunters, jumpers, and eventers all taking between 10 and 45 minutes to warmup it is not discipline specific and it does not depend on what you can or can't do with the warm up fences. A rider that wants to jump 45 warm up fences will always jump 45 warm up fences, the difference is if his trainer is there or not holding and raising his fence for him.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

But would anyone really let someone try out their horse in the middle of a show?


yes they would. Take an event like Southern Pines II....it is spread out over three days. You have people there from all over the country....it would be very convenient to let someone normally based in one state try a horse that is normally based in state much farther away. You wouldn't let just any yahoo try the horse as a tire kicker....but you might let someone who you trust or trust their trainer hop on in a supervised manner.

I'm not saying I agree with this....just do see the situations were the pros might want this and in a way that wouldn't be "abusive" to the horse. No more than what happens already. It is really not uncommon for someone to be up in the area for an event and try a horse that lives in the area or is in the area but not on the competition grounds on Friday even though that horse is competing on Saturday.

[Janet]

As for trying horses at a competition.....I wouldn't want someone else getting on them again after a full event....and I doubt many pros want that as well. Now what I *think* they want to allow is someone to be able to try a horse DURING the competition but perhaps after the competition is done for the day. For example, an event spread out over 3-4 days, horse does their dressage test only on Friday, potential purchaser tries horse late in the day (in a warm up empty of stewards and competitiors after signing releases etc.). ...
I do not think THAT would ever be permitted. It would be way too easy to have a trainer claim to be a prospective purchaser, and use the opportunity to school the horse. If it is going to be permitted, I think it HAS to be after the horse has finished the entire comeptition.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I do not think THAT would ever be permitted. It would be way to easy to have a trainer claim to be a prospective purchaser, and use the opportunity to school the horse. If it is going to be permitted, I think it HAS to be after the horse has finished the entier comeptition.


As I said...I think that is what they really want....it is permitted in dressage and the H/J world (as it is permitted to have a trainer school a horse). And I agree with you....hence why I said it is a slippery slope. For me...if I want my trainer to school my horse....I enter them in the event on my horse and let them compete that weekend. And I'd personally prefer to keep it that way and not like the H/J world.

[Janet]

If you read the actual blog it is actually very clear.

At these shows a coach/trainer/ground person sets one of these jumps for his rider or group of riders whichever way he desires (within the rules of course). This type of warm up proves to be much more efficient. Being able to dictate the dimension of the jump from the beginning of the warm up to the end enables a rider to warm up in much less time, though in a much more relaxed, systematic manner.

Competitors warm up habits cannot be expected to change overnight, however, so there will still need to be a couple of jumps for the rider without help on the ground to utilize.

While there may have been some back tracking the original proposal did not just say "more fences please" It clearly says that they wish to allow a trainer to control a fence for his riders and allow those riders to jump the fence in any direction or any width or height they want.

Again, we need to see the actual proposal. _I_ interpreted the comment "within the rules of course" to mean "all of EV108.3 c) and d) including the restrictions on the height of the fence and the direction in which it is jumped"

_You_ obviously interpreted it as meaning "exempt from at least some parts of EV108.3 c) and d)".

It makes a big difference. We need to know WHICH they meant.

[retreadeventer]

What about medics/ambulance availability for this? You want organizers to pay to keep an ambulance on the grounds while pros "sell" horses after the competition is done? When does the ring crew get to work the footing and set the course, midnight?
This rule is about allowing trainers to "school" horses for the riders and is an inroad toward getting rid of the one-horse, one-rider standard of the sport we have had for 50 years since it's inception. This rule is the one iron bar we have that keeps us from falling head first into the hunter-jumper show maelstrom.
That division has had to fight to return horsemanship, i.e., not over-riding and over-schooling horses, to the shows. I believe one of the biggest, the Pennsylvania National, one year had a lockdown in the equitation horse barn to prevent horses from being out of their stalls for what was often 8 hours at a time being lunged, schooled, lunged, schooled so they were quiet enough for the riders without drugs.
Once a horse has competed, they are done for the day and should not be ridden again, please. Think. If they are taken out of the trailer or stall three times for all three phases, then taken out a fourth time for "trial" ("schooling") or whatever...with no limit on time....why is this OK because it's "after the competition is over"? What does that have to do with the horse's amount of time being exercised and ridden? Where's the safety in jumping a tired horse? Where's the safety in riding on competition grounds after everyone is done and leaving for the day? Gauuughhhhh.

[fooler]

Adding another fence to warm-up, if room is available, is not a bad thing. Think of some x-c warm-ups with a flagged portable fence. Bobby responded to my email stating again the rule would not remove directional flags.

I still do not agree with showing a sell horse while the competition is on-going. Sooner or later someone involved in this process, rider or ground person, will be injured. The competition medical teams will be tied up with these folks. This may or may not, depending on the number of EMT and Vets on ground, stop the jumping competition. I also agree that sooner or later the sell horse (team) will interfere with a competing horse (team).

Show the horse after ALL competition has completed.

[Janet]

Bottom line, I don't think it's fair to the horse who has just had a very long day of competing and possibly trailering (and more trailering to come) (and this puts aside all the other issues, which are not so easily solved, I don't think). I still don't see how this is beneficial to the sport, as opposed to more convenient for the sellers and a handful of buyers.

I think that depends on the level. I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone up on a Prelim horse that has just finished all three phases in one day.

But a reasonlably fit BN horse that has competed over 3 days and isn't travelling until tomorrow? I don't think that would be "unfair".

[Hony]

I do not see showing horses after an event as all bad but do feel the rule would need some tweeking. In fairness it is not just the pros who would benefit from this allowance. Breeders, owners and even amateurs who are looking for something new could benefit.
Space is a huge issue though. Perhaps venues with space could set up an extra area for horses to be shown. A small area with one jump would be all that was needed and they could advertise it as part of their omnibus listing. It may end up being an extra draw for competetors.
Central sales venus are common in many other disciplines and nations and work well to promote the sales portion of horse riding.

I'm not a big fan of the SJ warmup idea because I don't often have anyone to adjust my fences but again, perhaps venues that have the space could set up a few extra fences outside of the tradition X, verticle and oxer to relieve the warmup madness a bit.

[Kementari]

This rule is about allowing trainers to "school" horses for the riders and is an inroad toward getting rid of the one-horse, one-rider standard of the sport we have had for 50 years since it's inception. This rule is the one iron bar we have that keeps us from falling head first into the hunter-jumper show maelstrom.

Amen. :yes:

As for the extra jumps thing, if all they want are more fences, then they should talk to organizers about it. I've seen plenty of venues with more than three warm-up fences; no rule change is required.

[flyingchange]

If the prima donnas have the chutzpah to request more work from organizers (setting out more warmups, using up/tearing up more sod, being legally responsible for more warmup chaos) for their financial benefit, then they, the prima donnas showing their competing horses during the competition, should also be required to foot every last cent that goes into the inclusion of more jumps and/or another warmup area. I'm thinking $100 per competition. The additional warmup area or jumps are included in the competition only after enough entries have been submitted with this add-on to pay for the area. NO REFUNDS for this add-on.

If, on the other hand, the prima donnas expect this additional service to be picked up by the rest of us, then we should all get a piece of the action when and if a horse sells that is marketed/shown with this extra area, since we are the ones paying for the area to be available to them in the first place.

I am with Robby on this. I am still competing in eventing (but haven't renewed my usea or usef stuff this year), but I am so disgusted with all the changes these people want to make.

Right now the ONLY PROPOSALS FOR CHANGE THAT WE SHOULD BE SEEING SHOULD BE THOSE THAT WILL IMPROVE SAFETY IN THIS SPORT.

[deltawave]

Maybe we should propose "concierge level" entry fees, where if you cough up an extra $100 you are guaranteed all the prerogatives/perks that you so clearly deserve, like the best barns, the best ride times, the best judges, and a "members only" warmup area.

For an extra fee you are permitted 3 (three) gross infractions of decent behavior per show, such as barging into the ring ahead of another competitor, pitching a hissy fit because scores are posted 8 minutes late, making the bit check kid cry because she did it from the wrong side and your horse got nervous, or driving your Humvee out to the XC course because you have too many horses to ride and too little time to actually walk there.

Might suit some of the pros-behaving-badly types we hear about right down to the ground.

:D :p :D :p

[flyingchange]

I like it Deltawave.

So if you get the concierge entry, you get a "special" number that is a different color from everybody else's (steerage gets green, promenade gets red or something like that). You must wear your number at all times. Officials can rack up bad behavior points onto your event log. Everytime you make a child-volunteer cry, you are penalized say $50. Everytime you barge in front of another competitor to do your SJ (because you have so many more rides!!!), you are penalized $50. You cannot go on course (XC) until you've paid your fines. Cash only.

[LexInVA]

Could event organizers receive a percentage of horses' sale prices if they are shown and sold at their venues during competitions? :confused:

That would entail all sorts of unenforceable rules which no money-conscious professional would likely want to adhere to no matter how saintly they might seem. In a tight fisted economy like this, it would certainly be seen as an annoyance for them and potential buyers as well if they had to share the cheese. The whole idea of this "solution" was to make it easier and less time consuming for top professionals to sell their strings of lower-level horses to the ammies who usually don't reside anywhere near the farms of the pros.

[Blugal]

Well if they truly intend for those extra warm-up fences to be "for people with trainers/ground people," I will warm-up the same way as I do at H/J shows: I just call my fence and barge right in when I need to. They don't own the warm-up or the fences, and their "specialized" warm-up is giving them an advantage I don't intend to let them make the most of.

If you couldn't tell, I'm in the "stop making ridiculous changes that are eroding our sport and turning it more H/J by the day" camp.

[Kanga]

I really just have one question here.....

WHY are we(eventers) wanting to follow a hunter/jumper system?

Anyone out there that has been to these shows A rated or not, knows the fences are "owned" by trainers in the warm-up arena. Do we really want to bring that into our world???

I DON'T!! And I would also like to know who exactly came up with this brilliant idea, so that I could make a phone call.

[snoopy]

I am with Robby on this...... I am so disgusted with all the changes these people want to make.

Right now the ONLY PROPOSALS FOR CHANGE THAT WE SHOULD BE SEEING SHOULD BE THOSE THAT WILL IMPROVE SAFETY IN THIS SPORT.


edited to relfect my thought.....

[Brandy76]

But wasn't there some kind of article written by Craig Thompson about the professionals and making the sport more professional friendly? I could be wrong about the details.... And he is on the PHC

[JER]

You know...how many of us decided NOT to pursue a career as a professional in the industry because it is a hard way to make a living? So, we went and got a good education, found a great career or job, and have the means to go out and enjoy the horses on our own terms.

The attitude of many of these professional riders that we (the amateurs) are a bunch of peons that are strictly there as a cash cow for them, whether it's paying for lessons/training, buying horses for them, or paying them commissions to buy horses for us, is frankly infuriating. I can find my own horse, thank you very much, and am perfectly happy competing at an event without a trainer because I've done my homework at home. But now I'm supposed to move out of the way, so we can make eventing like a hunter/jumper show. I don't think so.

They act we owe them a living. Well, if you can't make a living without stepping all over the people that you use to make that living, then go find another job. Okay, rant over.

Nicely put, KellyS.

In terms of horsemanship and lifetime experience with horses, I don't think these pros are so much different from the amateurs. I know pros who are not very well-educated in horse care or physiology or even in teaching the most-basic basics to a horse. It's not like they've passed some qualification that says they've met any standards for the job. Usually, it just means they've worked for other pros, then hung out their own shingle.

If this were Sweden or Germany or England, it would be different. They'd have qualifications and education. A BHSI or a Reitlehrer FN means something but it still doesn't entitle you to a easy living.

A life in eventing is like choosing to live year-round in a ski town. It takes a bit of diversification. You work ski patrol, you coach the high school softball team, you work for the fire service in the summer and you do a bit on landscaping on the side. You're not going to get rich but you're living the life you choose. If you want more money and a swank lifestyle, you leave town and get a real job.

I'm quite certain there are a number of posters here who are equal to any pro in terms of horsemanship and are far more accomplished at building a successful business. I suspect they could give the PHC some very good advice.

[enjoytheride]

I asked about warmup rings on the HJ board and most of them find the warmup terrifying!

[Invested1]

I am not an aggressive rider and would always get run over in warm-up at hunter shows. I also never really got in a good warm-up because I was afraid of getting in someone's way, and people were just EVERYWHERE.
:sigh:

[TB or not TB?]

The concept of trying sales horses on event grounds doesn't bother me, but not in the way it was proposed. I think it could be beneficial to a lot of people and not just the pros. If you live 6 hours away but you really like a horse, that could be an excellent opportunity to hop on and see if he's worth a closer look.

That said, I would not want sales horses being ridden while a competition was happening. For one, you don't know if that nice Prelim mare who goes so calmly for Joe Pro is going to be a pistol for Amy Ammy, grab the bit in her teeth and explode, causing disasters for other people's warm ups or injury to the horse/rider. (Or vice versa, because heaven knows some Ammy's get along better with their horses than a pro)

I also don't think the facility should have to allow yet another session of wear and tear on its grounds and equipment with utterly no compensation. Plus, on those rainy days, a single extra horse taking the jumps in the warmup will wreak havoc on the footing.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but there are some possibilities to explore that benefit everyone. I could envision having a session at the end of competition for sales horses (one that could be optional to the organizers) that starts after all competitors have finished. For a fee paid directly to the show (with a collections person standing outside the warmup) of maybe $25 or $50 per horse, one could do a 30 minute test ride or some such thing.

I admit the idea needs work, but it wouldn't interfere with other competitors or hinder those who aren't interested, the organizers wouldn't have to participate if they didn't want to, but would be compensated for their use of facilities, and people would be able to get in that test ride. Really, that's not too much $ either if you are saving that 6 hour drive.

Now, I'm not sure about the ethics of this plan after something like a 2* because the horse's care would obviously need to be top priority, but honestly if you're looking for a horse at that level, you're going to be spending a pretty penny anyway and the distance isn't as much of an issue. If the pro wanted to pay stabling on the horse for another couple of days, perhaps they could work something out with the organizer or a nearby farm. At a regular horse trials though, a 30 minute ride after SJ and a rest doesn't seem too strenuous, and if it is, the horse certainly doesn't HAVE to be shown.

What do you all think of something like that?

[deltawave]

I dunno, I just don't think I'd feel right getting on a horse for a test ride after it had competed at anything but maybe Novice or Training. I'd much rather WATCH the critter, and arrange to ride it for the first time at a place that's NOT a competition.

[blackwly]

I could envision having a session at the end of competition for sales horses (one that could be optional to the organizers) that starts after all competitors have finished. For a fee paid directly to the show (with a collections person standing outside the warmup) of maybe $25 or $50 per horse, one could do a 30 minute test ride or some such thing.


I'd have no problem with that at all, and was sort of thinking of the same thing. How many shows allow XC schooling after the event is complete? Quite a few. It's usually lower level pairs, or those that had some problems on course. You pay your $25 to the competition site. They can cancel it is they are concerned about footing, etc. Why can't the pros show horses in a scenario like this? Say, the organizer offers use of a dressage ring, a warmup, or whatever for $25 after the competition, if and only if the organizer wants to?

I have a major problem with people showing horses in a crowded warmup where competitors are trying to fine tune before their ride. If you have ever had a "warmup problem horse" (and I had one doozie) this has got to make you nauseated. I spent 3 years trying to keep that horse away from crowds as much as humanly possible...the idea of throwing EXTRA horses (ridden by people who don't know them) in there with me while I'm trying to get my horse over a few fences as quietly as possible before my round is ridiculous and unfair.

But the PHC will never go for an idea like the one I mentioned above, because it would mean waiting until the end of the day and paying fees. Two things I'm sure they would find "inefficient."

[kcrubin]

I didn't know events still let people xc school immediately after the event! Who does that?
We used to always do that back in the "OLD days!"

[asterix]

Retread, I love your stewards' rules. In my dreams!!

No, seriously, I really like that job, which is one reason I keep doing it, but I do not for a moment think that this is about getting a few more jumps in warmup. I have no doubt that a lot of pros think our little 3 jump set up is not ideal for a proper warmup; this is probably true for lots of competitors, really. But it IS a level playing field for all competitors.

There is no way that adding jumps specifically for a ground crew to "work with" to design a perfect warmup will result in a level playing field.

[Ajierene]

I dunno, I just don't think I'd feel right getting on a horse for a test ride after it had competed at anything but maybe Novice or Training. I'd much rather WATCH the critter, and arrange to ride it for the first time at a place that's NOT a competition.

I would think at the least, you would have a different horse. Take a fresh horse, run it across a cross country course, or an entire trial, for a one day trial and you have a much more calm, easy horse - as an example.

So you, as a buyer, get on this horse and like it. Maybe you, as a buyer, feel like you click with this horse and buy it. Get it home to find out it is a terror without being warmed up for at least an hour ahead of time....not so fun.

Chances are you are not going to buy it after one ride - but it has happened before. For the professional, I think this is just as bad an idea as for the buyer, and definitely for the facility.

[blackwly]

I didn't know events still let people xc school immediately after the event! Who does that?
We used to always do that back in the "OLD days!"

Well, last year I did that once at River Glen and once at Poplar I think. I always find it handy for a green horse at the lower levels to go pop around the waters, banks etc if they've had an easy weekend otherwise. Not something I would do after a strenuous weekend or every time out, obviously.

[kcrubin]

I agree - not something to do after a strenuous outing but sometimes it would be great if you're thinking of moving up to school a couple or go back over something you know you should have done differently, etc.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm not sure what the answer is, but there are some possibilities to explore that benefit everyone. I could envision having a session at the end of competition for sales horses (one that could be optional to the organizers) that starts after all competitors have finished. For a fee paid directly to the show (with a collections person standing outside the warmup) of maybe $25 or $50 per horse, one could do a 30 minute test ride or some such thing.



Nothing in the rules prevents this from happening now. The competition is over, if the organizer wants to allow people to pay a fee and still ride on their grounds....they could.

A rule change is only needed if folks are going to be getting on the sale horse while the competition is still going on.

[three_dayer]

so how can we get this thread and the one over at the h/j forum over to the USEA? this is quite entertaining and true....

[Robby Johnson]

I posted late last night after my full-time job (which routinely drains the life out of me) and then taught 3 pilates classes until 9 p.m. I was attempting to be concise as I didn't have the energy to fully capture my feelings in a lengthy post. This morning I was making my bed - as I always do - and thought, "I probably should've added more to that."

Firstly, I in no way intended my post to be exclusively directed at Bobby. He is a very good friend with whom I have shared both good and bad times, and I know him to be a brilliant, pragmatic individual. As GotSpots said so eloquently, he has given a tremendous amount of himself to this sport, offering creative and fair solutions and lobbying for change as it relates to a very big picture that not many want (or even can) see. I don't think he's an "adapt or die" type. In fact, I'd describe him as conservative - possibly even guarded. His counsel is wise and I value that.

Nor was it directed at the PHC specifically. Those are just two minor occurrences which prompted me to share my feelings. I belong to several professional associations in my line of work. I value them greatly, and as such support the right of any group of like-minded individuals to unite and do what they like to do. Usually much good comes out of these united efforts.

What I should've said last night in my original post was that in the years I've participated in this sport - and really, it's not that many (less than 10, from beginning competition to the last time I evented) - there have been a multitude of suggested and implemented changes resulting from rallying forces whose motivation isn't always democratic.

Having unplugged from the sport and lacking any real skin in the game (my idea of fun with horses these days is going for a nice long hack ... what a blessing!) it's easier to make somewhat objective observations. I guess my point is that when you have something that is authentic and pure, that has evolved organically, and it suddenly comes under the influence of actions and enhancements that aren't unbiased, the integrity of the structure is often severed, and the damage left in the wake irreparable.

I'm thinking a house whose load-bearing walls are removed, Britney Spears as Mousketeer vs. Britney On The Stretcher ... and to eventing in particular I'm thinking the safety scare, letting incompetent riders run out their nine lives in real time leaving their own bones and dead horses in their wake, yet staying comfortably in pretense because it's just not polite to tell someone "Hey, you know what, you suck ... take up knitting;" manufactured 12 year-olds running Training on $30K horses who don't even know how to pick their horses feet out properly, selling out to a "format" so that "Our horses can be stars because they can be seen at more competitions and we can get more sponsors ... like NASCAR!" Just because someone thought it doesn't mean it is so. Ideas must be developed. Stories must be edited. Inertia alone does not a PlayStation II make.

Couldn't some of that energy and passion to illicit such radical change be directed in programs and initiatives that have some proper research and evaluation methodology factored into them? I still marvel at the fact that the format change was implemented without any documented research as to how the old format was bad - or how the new change would be better. Isn't that the point of Jon's blog post? That it's been spontaneous evolution? Is it really smart to expect to reach a destination if you have no map to lead you there? Do you wake up one day and say, "Well, shit, I'm so damned sick of getting rained on I think I am going to need to build me a house. I've never done this but I see houses down the street so I think I'll just start slapping stuff together and see what happens when eventually I'm finished?" No, you don't. What's the basic principle of home-building? I believe it's called a plan. An engineered plan. Designed to stand the tests of climactic effects and any other destructive threats one faces in modern-day America.

I personally feel that the current economic crisis is going to leave its mark for a long, long time. And in a macabre way, I really hope it does. Gross consumerism and instant gratification as we've known it (and evolved alongside it) is a thing of the past. Accommodating people who want to ride and compete horses - either in a pro or ammy capacity - will be even lower on the priority list of the outside world than it is now. It should be. People are starving in our own country, our own towns, our own streets. Wives are beaten by husbands in our own damned families. Teenagers are testing positive for HIV. Do I really give 3 rips if someone sits on a horse after it's finished competing to decide if they want it? No, I don't. Even if it's a little tired, it's taken a helluva lot better care of than most inner-city school children. In fact, it will likely fetch a price 3x greater than most of them could be educated at a local community college. That doesn't mean I don't love horses, or riding, or horse people. I do. It's just that a filter has been removed from my lens and I see things differently now.

Basically, I say stop cannibalizing the sport. It's weak and wounded and needs nurturing and support if it's going to emerge with an identity and purpose and a future. Invest in planning and plotting and expect it to take time. Fixing the problem in 1-2 meetings or even within the span of a year is unrealistic and only contributes to a cycle of waste. Add value. That's what it's about.

[fooler]

Robby you are far more eloquent than I. This statement pretty much sums up my thoughts of WE as individuals in the sport of eventing and in the horse world. The US and world economys are teetering and with them our social fabric. Some eventing pros will be able to ride it out, others will have to cut back and others will have to leave the sport as pros until the economy turns around, if it does. The one constant in life is change and kids we are in for huge changes in all facets of our lives.

"I personally feel that the current economic crisis is going to leave its mark for a long, long time. And in a macabre way, I really hope it does. Gross consumerism and instant gratification as we've known it (and evolved alongside it) is a thing of the past. Accommodating people who want to ride and compete horses - either in a pro or ammy capacity - will be even lower on the priority list of the outside world than it is now. It should be."

[BaroquePony]

Robby, excellent post.

[LLDM]

Well, I added my 2 cents on the blog comments. But I'll wager the rules will go right on through no matter how many oppose them.

SCFarm

[JER]

LLDM, your comments (http://useventing.com/blog/?p=1963#comment-266) on the USEA blog were spot-on.

[Brandy76]

And a question - for all, I guess.

So, here I am a 40 something - have ridden all my life, galloped racehorses as a teen/twenty something, have a real job and a family.

Evented for about 14 years on an ottb that I brought along with lessons, trainer, etc - but usually, well 90% of the time, no trainer at events, other than friends that go with. Got to be competent at training, ready to move up to prelim, but my guy was getting up there in age, just too much for him. OTTB retired, couldn't afford another without selling my good friend -not happening.

Last year, finally could afford to get another - yes, another ottb. He is coming along, hope to start him this year at some events.

HOWEVER, it has been 7 years for me, and all the changes in the sport, the amount of money it seems to need, well, the whole thing has been pretty discouraging. Do I need to have a trainer/jump guard now just to warm up?

I can't afford to send my horse to a trainer - I am a fairly competent horse person, and take lessons with a wonderful trainer - who is definitely "classic school" event person. I do my homework, am always wanting to learn new things - every day I realize that even after 38 years, I know NOTHING about horses, ha, ha!

So, my heart wants to - I still get goosebumps, but am I even relevant? I am just an ammy who someday would love to do the Training 3 day. But, yikes, I will NEVER have a $30k horse.

I did not renew my membership this year for the first time since 1989, because I have misgivings about all the things I read and see. Is it even the same sport?

I guess my question is, is it worth it? Will I get to my first event and think I am at a h/j show?

Thanks for reading the rant - did not mean to de rail the thread.

[Brandy76]

And a question - for all, I guess.

So, here I am a 40 something - have ridden all my life, galloped racehorses as a teen/twenty something, etc, etc now have a real job and a family.

Evented for about 14 years on an ottb that I brought along with lessons, trainer, etc - but usually, well 90% of the time, no trainer at events, other than friends that go with. Got to be competent at training, ready to move up to prelim, but my guy was getting up there in age, just too much for him. OTTB retired, couldn't afford another without selling my good friend -not happening.

Last year, finally could afford to get another - yes, another ottb. He is coming along, hope to start him this year at some events.

HOWEVER, it has been 7 years for me, and all the changes in the sport, the amount of money it seems to need, well, the whole thing has been pretty discouraging. Do I need to have a trainer/jump guard now just to warm up?

I can't afford to send my horse to a trainer - I am a fairly competent horse person, and take lessons with a wonderful trainer - who is definitely "classic school" event person. I do my homework, am always wanting to learn new things - every day I realize that even after 38 years, I know NOTHING about horses, ha, ha!

So, my heart wants to - I still get goosebumps, but am I even relevant? I am just an ammy who someday would love to do the Training 3 day. But, yikes, I will NEVER have a $30k horse.

I did not renew my membership this year for the first time since 1989, because I have misgivings about all the things I read and see. After all, it seems that what they are cultivating is the member with lots of money who is trainer dependent, more ($)
Is it even the same sport? This is hopefully not sounding like a pity party - hey maybe all this makes it easier to fly under the radar at events - who knows?

I guess my question is, is it worth it? Will I get to my first event and think I am at a h/j show?

Thanks for reading the rant - did not mean to de rail the thread.

[Dawnd]

So I just don't get it. ANY of it.

Why do the pros need something different? and ask specifically for rule changes?

And why is everyone else so vehemently against it?

I also don't quite get Robby's eloquent post about starving children and the economy changing things so drastically. Haven't there always been starving children? Haven't the rich always been lording over the poor? Hasn't the middle class always had to take second and third looks at spending their money on hobbies?

PHC - I don't know if rule changes are needed to make the Pro's life easier and seriously, do you think that the masses care that your lives are easier?
USEA - I think that you need to take a stand as to what you want your sport to be.
Smurfs - well, you are the masses and are the only group that can actually force change. You just have to get organized and decide what you want. That's probably how the USEA got started in the first place.

Me - well, I just have to figure out why I don't get it. I really don't care how many fences are in warm up as long as I get to jump a few and that the first few fences on course are flowing. I really don't care how many horses are sold on the show grounds when I'm sitting around waiting to go home.

PS: I kinda do care that rich kids might kill horses through their recklessness (heck not even kids, ULRs, too) but so far I haven't figured out what to do about it.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

So I just don't get it. ANY of it.

Why do the pros need something different? and ask specifically for rule changes?

And why is everyone else so vehemently against it?

I also don't quite get Robby's eloquent post about starving children and the economy changing things so drastically. Haven't there always been starving children? Haven't the rich always been lording over the poor? Hasn't the middle class always had to take second and third looks at spending their money on hobbies?

PHC - I don't know if rule changes are needed to make the Pro's life easier and seriously, do you think that the masses care that your lives are easier?
USEA - I think that you need to take a stand as to what you want your sport to be.
Smurfs - well, you are the masses and are the only group that can actually force change. You just have to get organized and decide what you want. That's probably how the USEA got started in the first place.

Me - well, I just have to figure out why I don't get it. I really don't care how many fences are in warm up as long as I get to jump a few and that the first few fences on course are flowing. I really don't care how many horses are sold on the show grounds when I'm sitting around waiting to go home.

PS: I kinda do care that rich kids might kill horses through their recklessness (heck not even kids, ULRs, too) but so far I haven't figured out what to do about it.

no, you're not dense....I'm kinda with you on this one. Although it could also be that I'm just too tired to care....maybe I just need another cup of coffee!

[Dawnd]

no, you're not dense....I'm kinda with you on this one. Although it could also be that I'm just too tired to care....maybe I just need another cup of coffee!

I'm pretty tired, too. Perhaps that's just it. :eek:

[3dazey]

If you, as a rider (pro or ammy) or coach of said rider, are unable to prepare a horse for a show jumping round using the three basic fences provided and some wise flatwork, you have problems that need to be addressed at home, in schooling, BEFORE THE EVENT. I don't care what level you are riding.

Many events in our area provide more than the required three fences. I don't think additional fences should "belong" to anyone, as that removes an option from other competitors, and presents the scenario of little Suzie working on a circle over said jump with coach Joe; over and over they jump while blocking areas of warmup and using little or no consideration for others as they tear up more footing in their staked-out claim.

You know, those volunteers out there making the sport happen for everyone are mostly amateur riders, their family members and friends, and various generous people roped into it for the day by organizers. I can't remember the last time I saw a pro fence-judging, bit-checking or scribing so as to make my day of competition possible. So cut us a break and enough already with these endless propositions that help no one but yourself.

As to the horse-selling, I know it happens behind the scenes all the time, and it should be at the discretion of the organizer/property-owner AFTER THAT COMPETITION PHASE IS OVER FOR ALL COMPETITORS AND THE COMPETITION AREA IS CLEAR, not just when the sale horse is done competing.

[VCT]

Uhm. The proposed warm up jump rule change is just ridiculous. Warm ups at H/J shows are horrid. Scary. Nuff said.

I guess I don't understand the need to "show" sale horses to potential customers at shows. Sure, advertise that the horse is for sale and can be seen at whatever show. Interested parties can go to the show and watch the horse go. Then, they can speak to the owner/trainer/rider/whoever about making an appt. to come see the horse. I don't get it. It's not like the prospective buyer is likely to write a check then and there after bopping around the warm up area on a tired post-competition mount... is it? The possible transaction will have to progress beyond the showgrounds. I just don't see the need.

[AiryFairy]

So I just don't get it. ANY of it.

Why do the pros need something different? and ask specifically for rule changes?

And why is everyone else so vehemently against it?

I also don't quite get Robby's eloquent post about starving children and the economy changing things so drastically. Haven't there always been starving children? Haven't the rich always been lording over the poor? Hasn't the middle class always had to take second and third looks at spending their money on hobbies?

PHC - I don't know if rule changes are needed to make the Pro's life easier and seriously, do you think that the masses care that your lives are easier?
USEA - I think that you need to take a stand as to what you want your sport to be.
Smurfs - well, you are the masses and are the only group that can actually force change. You just have to get organized and decide what you want. That's probably how the USEA got started in the first place.

Me - well, I just have to figure out why I don't get it. I really don't care how many fences are in warm up as long as I get to jump a few and that the first few fences on course are flowing. I really don't care how many horses are sold on the show grounds when I'm sitting around waiting to go home.

PS: I kinda do care that rich kids might kill horses through their recklessness (heck not even kids, ULRs, too) but so far I haven't figured out what to do about it.

If I understand Robby correctly, he's saying that this sport, which used to be all about integrity, hard work, working your way up through the ranks with hands on experience instead of buying your way to the top, is in need of a *SERIOUS* correction. If it takes a crap economy to wipe out the people who don't deserve to be competing, then so be it. Maybe eventing will return to a simpler way of being, like it used to be.

[retreadeventer]

Why people are against it, Dawnd, is because sometimes this drivel that is splashed off a barstool lands on the floor, stays there for a while, and daggone it if the whole kit and kaboodle of the PTB walk right in and salute it...and it ends up a RULE. Sigh. Kiss eventing as we know it goodbye...

[Robby Johnson]

Wow, I didn't know I'd get that sort of reaction. I am sorry if it's somewhat out there ... I tend to do that sometimes. In real time I can recognize it - mostly because people just say, "What the Hell are you talking about?" Then I have to take my own advice and edit my ideas and thoughts into simple bullet points.

I am not saying the sport does or does not need to change. I'm just saying that when change is initiated, it should be properly researched with solid measurement and milestone tracking in place. These things take time, precise craftsmanship, and even healthy challenge by nay-sayers when it appears things are getting off track. But there must be that strong foundation or base layer that we link back to. That's the place from which we develop our objectives. It's the difference between making prints of a painting and making photocopies of photocopies. Eventually you are left with a weak facsimile.

I told my boss today that I felt, in these tough times - our business is being greatly effected - like we're wasting time popping firecrackers when we should be orchestrating a fireworks display. That means investing a ton of energy into "What if we did this?" tactics isn't adding value to our organization and how we position ourselves for the upswing. It's just burning everyone out very quickly and compromising our organizational stability.

I have reached a point in life (I'm 37, by the way) where I've become very judicious about where I choose to invest my energy and passion. Again, this is not the result of Bobby's fairly innocuous suggestions - remember, he's the messenger here - more of a cumulative dissolve since the format was switched. This sport has so much dimension, but to me that was the base on which it hinged. Since that has atrophied, I feel the sport is struggling. It will most definitely find its feet, but that must be the goal, and a plan for achieving it must be developed, consummated, and executed.

How do we find our feet in this new era?

[Mary in Area 1]

Personally, my feet are walking. Thanks for the memories!

[seeuatx]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I beg pardon if this is a redundant statement. I only had to read the rule to gather what they are pushing for. H/J style warm-up so that trainers can commandeer the warm-up fences, thus all but requiring competitors to have a trainer at the show... that is if they want to be able to jump a warm up fence or two before heading into the ring.

They know that a lot of eventers still compete sans trainer (maybe a course walk trainer... but that's usually it)... the authors of this proposed rule would like to dig their hands a little more into our pockets. I hate to sound like a broken record or a conspiracy theorist, but it all seems to come back to the hunter/jumperization of the sport.

P.S. H/J show warm-ups are the scariest place I have ever been in my life... especially when trying to coach a walk/trotter kid :no:.

[silver2]

"The second rule change the PHC plans on proposing would allow the competitor more flexibility in what they can do with their horse(s) after said horse is done competing. For those of us in the PHC, we make our living through the sport of eventing, thus we must be able to conduct business (in addition to coaching) while at the competitions much like our peers in the hunter/jumper and dressage world do. The rule would state that so long as it does not interfere with the running of the competition, a horse that is through competing may use all existing warm up areas “for any and all business purposes”. This would then allow, for example, the showing of a horse that is for sale to a potential buyer. Some events may already allow this if it is done discreetly, but most events won’t allow it. Insurance and liability have a lot to do with their reasoning, which is understandable. Therefore, the PHC will be working with the USEA to see if this roadblock can be cleared so that professionals don’t lose an opportunity to make a living while at an event they are supporting."
I like how they jsut tossed that "thus" in there to make it sound more official.

If I ran an event on my land I'd tell the PHC to go jump off a pier. The landowners are doing them a favor by supporting the event, not the other way around. If you want to conduct business on my property pay rent or commission like everyone else. I could give a rats ass how you make your living, quite frankly.

I review a lot of grant applications and project proposals and this has "shady non-profit run by out of work lobbyist who has promised his clents the moon but is talking out his ass and will never be taken seriously" all over it. I wonder what the members of the organisation have been told it can do for them, lol.

[LexInVA]

Every major equine-sport or whatever-the-purpose-is horse organization has a PHC or an equivalent group of "top people" who work together for their own collective interests as they pertain to guiding the regulation and format of their respective discipline/sport/whatever.

[JAM]

The post to which I responded stated Training or Prelim, both of which I regard as involving enough exertion that I would regard a test drive (or two or three or four, etc.) as too much. And, while I agree that a "reasonably fit BN horse" that has competed over 3 days and isn't traveling until the next day might be a different situation, how would these distinctions be observed and "enforced." The only way I see is the honor system, which would likely be utterly ineffective.

I think that depends on the level. I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone up on a Prelim horse that has just finished all three phases in one day. But a reasonlably fit BN horse that has competed over 3 days and isn't travelling until tomorrow? I don't think that would be "unfair".

[silver2]

Every major equine-sport or whatever-the-purpose-is horse organization has a PHC or an equivalent group of "top people" who work together for their own collective interests as they pertain to guiding the regulation and format of their respective discipline/sport/whatever.
Really? Because I see a paid staff trying to make themselves seem useful to people by preying on their insecurities and petty grievances.

First we have a rule change demanding 4 warm up fences and not three because it is crucial to the livelihoods of their clients? reeeeaaallllyyy??? I wonder how many hours were billed to develop that one. Next we have a lot of emotional langauge about promoting "business activities", "rights" and "livelihood" that they will never have to actually deliver on because of that pesky old insurance. Get emotions running high, demonize the opposition and then commiserate to your clients and vow to keep fighting the(ir) good fight. Oldest tricks in the book.

Of course sometimes these badly thought out proposals get adopted and then we're stuck with them.

[CarrieK]

I haven't been on this forum in ages because frankly it just makes me sad. Like DW is sad about Rolex. Like someone said in a post above, am I even relevent? I've been dreaming forever about competing, and even when things have tripped me up I still had the dream. Now, I dunno.

I mean, I was loving the mention of Danny Ainge, on whom I seriously was crushin' back in the day. But the rest just makes me sad. Not the folks here, I mean, just...things.

Anyway, to the topic at hand:

As long as folks don't appropriate the warm-up, or any areas of it, I have no problem with the suggestions.

As to
...we make our living through the sport of eventing, thus we must be able to conduct business....
Um, no. There is no "must" about it, there is no inalienable eventing right at issue here. Change it to "We would like to be able to conduct business" and you probably wouldn't have immediately p!$$#d me off with that entitlement stuff. But I would still object because I don't think that other competitors--amateurs and other professionals alike--should subsidize your business through increased fees to pay any increased insurance costs.

Hey, I don't begrudge anyone the right to make a buck, but I certainly do begrudge rule changes that would be profitable for the select few.

Unless, of course, that the PHC can show that a huge portion of the pros are losing money, and their business is becoming unprofitable because they are out at a competition (at which, it's needless to say but I will anyway, they are making money).

I agree that after the last day of competition when folks are already on the road or are packing up, if the event organizers want to allow non-competitors to ride a horse in a sales situation or any other situation, and as long as I don't have to foot any portion of the bill, have at it.

[Brandy76]

Right there with you CarrieK.

So, if I understand, I could go to the warm up, and between horses being shown for sale, and riders with trainers, actually have to wrestle to get my measly two or three jumps in before I go out to sj or xc - or even not get it done before my ride time. Do I go to the warm up earlier, just in case?

And what happens if something happens, and I get to the warm up later than I planned? I know, my problem, but now the stakes are higher. Yikes.

It just seems to be adding more moving parts, all and only to benefit those "doing business" at a horse trial.

Maybe we do need to start the "Amatuer United States Eventing Association"
And we MUST use the warm up rules that someone earlier posted. Brilliant!

[tikidoc]

I so hate where this is all going. I left the hunters for a reason. Several of them, actually, but among them the fact that it has become impossible to go to a hunter show without a trainer, and that showing was a downright miserable thing for me. I switched to eventing because I enjoy it, I like the attitudes of eventers as a whole, and I enjoy being able to go to an event with a friend or two and compete. My trainer is usually competing as well, and last year was either at the same or one level higher than me, so schooling me is not an option. We do a course walk together (sometimes) and I'm OK with that being the level of trainer participation when I compete.

Regarding the first rule change proposal. The rules already states the minimum number and type of jumps in warmups, and allow for more. So why do we need a rule? If we have an extra that can be adjusted, we will run into the same damn problem as in the hunters, that of trainers monopolizing jumps. And as has been stated several times in previous posts, we do not need to become more like the hunters. Many of us lower level smurfs got here by way of the hunters and we are here because we don't like the hunter show world.

As for the second rule change, I see two major issues. First, warmups for the lower levels are already a bit of a zoo (although highly preferable to hunter warmups). Allowing the pros to show sale horses will make it worse and I see no way that it can be done without inconveniencing those who are actually getting ready to compete. Second is the insurance issue. I refuse to pay increased fees to subsidize liability insurance so the pros can show sale horses during a competition. As was said above, they "must" be able to do business at shows? No they WANT to do business at shows. There is no "must" here, they do not have a "right" to inconvenience those who paid the same money to compete, and need to warm up.

IF this passes, it will certainly make me more likely to go to unrecognized events rather than to pay hard earned money to support an organization which supports a system that gives preferential treatment to pros when us lower level ammys are the ones paying the vast majority of the bills. I agree that we need an ammy organization to push OUR agenda. And I would bet that a number of pros would be more in support of this organization than the PRC. I would use my trainer/barn owner as an example. She has a heck of a lot more in common with me than she does the guys in the PRC.

As someone who has only been an eventer for a short time, I find this incredibly depressing.

[Hannahsmom]

As for permitting folks to try a horse or school a horse after the end of a competition - seriously, why not? I'm an amateur, I have a full time job, it's hard enough for me to get away from work/real life to ride and show. Say I'm looking for a new horse, and I happen to be down at Southern Pines to compete. There's a nice Training or Prelim horse that's competing there and I watch him/her go and like what I see. So long as I stay out of everyone else's way, what's the harm in letting me sit on him after he's done competing to see if it's worth a trip back down to try him more seriously? We're all in the same place, and saves me a drive. Of course you don't want folks getting in the way of warmup of those competing, and thus I would want any such rule change to permit the warmup ring steward to limit or restrict horse trying if it's interfering with that, but I guess I really just don't see the huge downside to these two proposals.


This is just my .02 but I haven't seen anyone touch on this yet. I went and read the blog, have read thru the posts and I would say is that it isn't only the organizer of the competition or competitors that get affected. Volunteers do to (from any holdup, any extra work, etc.) I used to try to volunteer as much as I could but now I avoid volunteering at competitions where I know that organizers are 'bending over backwards' for the competitors as sometimes it is the volunteer that is left out there doing more than they bargained for. It's just something to keep in mind. If the organizer wants to allow it and okays it, then I would think a space of time post-end of event should be required to allow me to leave. If I was responsible to get warmup jumps picked up and wanted to get home, then I wouldn't be too happy unless the professional wanted to pay me at my normal salaried rate to wait. Hey, I might be all for that! Especially if every pro showing a horse had to pay it! I could make enough for my next entry at my salary. :lol:

[CMCEventer]

Here's another idea to improve show jumping warm-up and make it all a bit more effective...
I grew up eventing in an area where we had an order of go posted, and a time for each division to begin. If you missed your slot - you were eliminated. After 15 years away from competition, last year, I began eventing again (how fun!). I can do everything I need to do in the SJ warm up with the three jumps - I don't need any special manipulation of jumps in a particular order to get my Novice horse to jump well. What I do need is to have an idea of when I will ride my round! It seems that officials have this compulsion to announce that riders may ride SJ as they are ready, as if that will speed things up. Undoubtedly, a backlog develops at the in-gate. But, you can't put your name on the "I'm ready" list until you're ready to stand at the gate - so, I'm all warmed up perfectly using the 3 available jumps, and now I have to stand for easily 10-15 minutes, proving to the gate guard that I'm ready to go, but not allowed to leave. This is one of the worst organizational ideas I have encountered in years of eventing! Before we change rules, make people have grounds people to fight with each other for rule over one of 4 available jumps (um, aren't there quite often more than 4 riders in a warm-up arena) - can we first encourage event organizers to go back to the basics and establish an order of go, so riders have a a fair chance to get through the warm-up their horse needs and be ready to go at a designated point in time??? Crazy probably, I know.

[retreadeventer]

Here's another idea to improve show jumping warm-up and make it all a bit more effective...
I grew up eventing in an area where we had an order of go posted, and a time for each division to begin. If you missed your slot - you were eliminated. After 15 years away from competition, last year, I began eventing again (how fun!). I can do everything I need to do in the SJ warm up with the three jumps - I don't need any special manipulation of jumps in a particular order to get my Novice horse to jump well. What I do need is to have an idea of when I will ride my round! It seems that officials have this compulsion to announce that riders may ride SJ as they are ready, as if that will speed things up. Undoubtedly, a backlog develops at the in-gate. But, you can't put your name on the "I'm ready" list until you're ready to stand at the gate - so, I'm all warmed up perfectly using the 3 available jumps, and now I have to stand for easily 10-15 minutes, proving to the gate guard that I'm ready to go, but not allowed to leave. This is one of the worst organizational ideas I have encountered in years of eventing! Before we change rules, make people have grounds people to fight with each other for rule over one of 4 available jumps (um, aren't there quite often more than 4 riders in a warm-up arena) - can we first encourage event organizers to go back to the basics and establish an order of go, so riders have a a fair chance to get through the warm-up their horse needs and be ready to go at a designated point in time??? Crazy probably, I know.

Me too, CMC - I really liked the old way, too. I wonder if there is any way you get some event to try it that way and just see if there is a difference in the amount of time it would take to finish divisions. I know the "show up" way there is often long stretches of time where the ring is empty...of what use is that?

[Ajierene]

..... What I do need is to have an idea of when I will ride my round! It seems that officials have this compulsion to announce that riders may ride SJ as they are ready, as if that will speed things up. Undoubtedly, a backlog develops at the in-gate. But, you can't put your name on the "I'm ready" list until you're ready to stand at the gate - so, I'm all warmed up perfectly using the 3 available jumps, and now I have to stand for easily 10-15 minutes, proving to the gate guard that I'm ready to go, but not allowed to leave.

I tend to get to stadium early and in my area stadium is immediately followed by cross country. I do have a ride time - say 1145. The division has a start time, say 1130. I arrive at say 1110. I do my warm up and jumps and am ready to go at 1125. I can put my name on the list, but I cannot start until 1130. Where I ride, especially at Fairhill - they have a white board both in stadium and cross country start. You walk up, tell the stewart you are there and they ask if you are ready. Yes-put your name on the list - no, do your warm up and come back. So this way, you know roughly how long it will take. So, you can tell them you are a half an hour early and need the entire half an hour or you can tell them you are a half an hour early and want to go ASAP. Oh look, four people are there ahead of you-about 10 M. ok, warm up, do a jump, wait for your turn.

It is very well organized and easy to determine when you are going. You know who is going before you, so if you want to jump a jump right before you go in, you know what number to look for entering the ring, etc.

Then you run up to cross country and do the same thing. Usually there is little to no warm up here and often people end up running cross country 20M early. If the division starts at a specific time but everyone is completed 20 M early - they will start the next division. It seems to work well for Fairhill.

[Ajierene]

yeah....unless it is 90+ degrees...and you hack over (takes about a 15 minute hack over from the parking and you can't hear a damn thing in the parking area) to be on time for your given start time only to find out that they are 45 or so minutes behind schedule and you need to hang out and wait (and of course it ends up being more like 70 minutes).....where there is no shade, on a buggy August day. Yeah...then their system isn't working as well;)

HMM...That has not happened to me recently. It did happen in Stadium the last year they did stadium after cross country and resulted in an elimination for me - A LOT of that elimination had to do with the 'running 15 min late' turning into more like a half an hour and my mare and I, still both fairly new to eventing, jumped the warm up jump to many times (once every 10 min) and we were both mentally spent by the time we went. VERY frustrating.

I always try to get to stadium a half an hour before my time, which ends up being more because I leave the parking area more like an hour early because I am so nervous about getting there on time. That may have an effect on how I see things - that or the fact that I usually go there unrecognized, because I am 'frugal' and usually cannot do a show the first weekend of any month anyway.

ECIT: Um...ok...bornfree either deleted the post or is editing right now....

[bornfreenowexpensive]

ECIT: Um...ok...bornfree either deleted the post or is editing right now....


LOL was editing it and accidently deleted it! Oh well. That has happened to me a couple times at Fair Hill. I still really like the event but just pointing out that it doesn't always run smoothly. Typically it is out of the organizers control...there is a hold on xc and things get backed up. They do the best that they can...but it is just such a hike from the parking/stabling that you can get stuck up there waiting. And that could happen whether you have start times or not. I should also add that the last few times I've evented at Fair Hill....they tired to stay close to your start time.

[Blugal]

The posts on this page describing a H/J style order of go for SJ and XC are making me ill.

If that happens in my area, I'm not sure I'll even go eventing any more.

[Pferd51]

The idea behind the second rule change is self-serving and misguided. If the thrust is to promote business, then the solution should be a business one, not one which changes the competition. It's already been suggested. If you have a client, pay a fee to use a facility reserved for such purposes, so that the cost of maintaining it does not impinge on the non-users. The fee could come from the pro or the client or a combination. Not all shows will have the resources to offer this. The pros may gravitate to the ones which do. This is the way the market works. Organizers will decide if they want to make the effort to accomodate this based on how the competitions do with or without it. People may choose not to do it based on what the cost is. The horse should not be eligible for showing until it is done with the whole competition. Trying to shoehorn it into the competition by proposing rules changes basically makes it sound like they want to make their transactions without paying for the privilege.

[enjoytheride]

I have never been to an event where stadium was order of go although I have only shown unrecognized. All of these shows have a time slot for each level and as long as you go in this time slot you are fine.

[Ajierene]

LOL was editing it and accidently deleted it! Oh well.

He he - oops...well at least I quoted you so my post doesn't look so crazy. I think luck has played a role with me as well - I haven't experienced hold up jumping in a while, but when they did cross country before stadium, timing for stadium just kept getting worse.

It also lends to another discussion. What do you do with an increase of people in the warm up AND some pro trying to show a horse? You have twenty horses standing around due to some hold up and a pro wanting room to have his prospective buyer trot and canter around, as well as jump? That does sound like it is starting to get dangerous. You are already crowding the gate and warm up area with competitors - let alone someone that does not need to be there.

Im pretty sure at Olde Hope, non-competition horses are not even allowed on the grounds. No bringing a companion horse to ride around/increase crowding and further mess up the footing.

[Janet]

When I am running the show jumping ingate at CDCTA, I keep things running in numerical order as much as possible.

I make allowances for people with multiple horses.

If there is a gap- the next person in order is not ready for some reason- and there is someone with a later number ready to go, then they can fill the gap. But I won't let them go early just because they are there.

And people who arrive late have to wait until there is a gap- the next person in order isn't ready.

[asterix]

Janet, that's how we try and do it at Waredaca, too. In addition to trying to keep things orderly and predictable, we also try and have the ring empty as little as possible.
Now that we typically use an enclosed arena for warmup, we can and do control how many folks go in there -- so if you are not in the next 6-8 to go, you can go ride around in the field until we have room for you.

[Janet]

Janet, that's how we try and do it at Waredaca, too. In addition to trying to keep things orderly and predictable, we also try and have the ring empty as little as possible.
Now that we typically use an enclosed arena for warmup, we can and do control how many folks go in there -- so if you are not in the next 6-8 to go, you can go ride around in the field until we have room for you.
I know. It is one of the many things I like about Waredaca.

[CMCEventer]

Janet, that's how we try and do it at Waredaca, too. In addition to trying to keep things orderly and predictable, we also try and have the ring empty as little as possible.
Now that we typically use an enclosed arena for warmup, we can and do control how many folks go in there -- so if you are not in the next 6-8 to go, you can go ride around in the field until we have room for you.

Asterix & Janet -
THANK YOU!

Asterix - You're right - SJ works at Waredaca! And that's why I will go back there as often as I can! There is still someplace to begin your warm-up on the flat, but you don't clog up the jumping area. And you know very closely how long you have and who you will follow - it's easy.

And, Janet - you have a GREAT way of doing it! Give those of us who carefully plan our warm-up the ability to do so, accomodate those with multiple horses, and keep the ring full! Everyone wins! Sounds so simple - why can't more events make that happen?!?!

[snoopy]

When I am running the show jumping ingate at CDCTA, I keep things running in numerical order as much as possible.

I make allowances for people with multiple horses.

If there is a gap- the next person in order is not ready for some reason- and there is someone with a later number ready to go, then they can fill the gap. But I won't let them go early just because they are there.

And people who arrive late have to wait until there is a gap- the next person in order isn't ready.


Very much agree with this.


I like set times for all three phases. It is more orderly and less stressful to know where and when you need to be. It also keeps crowds down in warm up areas. And I am very much in favour of if you are late you are eliminated.
I hate late!!!! Rude and disrespectful.

[LexInVA]

I see all those years as a star, producer, and director on a top-ten internationally syndicated TV show really influenced how you run your life Snoopy.

[asterix]

Not to be monotonous about the volunteers, but the Waredaca SJ system works in part because we have a WONDERFUL volunteer (the husband of a friend) who has run the ingate for a long time. Whoever runs warmup is working essentially as his deputy and he is in charge of "the board" -- and of soothing nerves, calming anxious parents, and dealing with the occasional bratty pro, er, rider.

We are always anxious when he can't make a HT, and try and stick to his system in his absence. It is not an easy job but he makes it look that way.

Good volunteers are priceless and that's part of my worry about these rule changes -- if they mean more work or more stress for volunteers they are not worth it. Already it's clear they will benefit a tiny minority of competitors at best.

[snoopy]

I see all those years as a star, producer, and director on a top-ten internationally syndicated TV show really influenced how you run your life Snoopy.

Absolutely...that and a very bad case of OCPD.

[Snapdragon]

Not to be monotonous about the volunteers, but the Waredaca SJ system works in part because we have a WONDERFUL volunteer (the husband of a friend) who has run the ingate for a long time. Whoever runs warmup is working essentially as his deputy and he is in charge of "the board" -- and of soothing nerves, calming anxious parents, and dealing with the occasional bratty pro, er, rider.

We are always anxious when he can't make a HT, and try and stick to his system in his absence. It is not an easy job but he makes it look that way.

Good volunteers are priceless and that's part of my worry about these rule changes -- if they mean more work or more stress for volunteers they are not worth it. Already it's clear they will benefit a tiny minority of competitors at best.

I don't think you can be monotonous about volunteers. :yes: The warm-up for SJ at Waredaca is a model that should be followed elsewhere. It's methodical, gives riders enough time in warm-up without having to compete with a lot of others, and is just . . . harmonious.