"There is something wrong with your horse..."

[Personal Champ]

How to say, when you have no clue what it may be?? I'm hoping some of you could give me some suggestions on what could be going on with this horse so I can say something. It's going to be long as I have a decent amount of history on this animal.

Story is about a 17 year old (give or take a few) TB gelding. I have known and ridden the horse off and on for the past 10 years. Horse now has new caretaker, a really nice 17 year old girl. But something is WRONG with this horse.

I had acquired the horse in November 2006 from the owner, horse was starved, BCS of 1-2. I refed him carefully, starting with free choice hay and slowly introducing beep and concentrates over a period of months. I had him until March 2008, when he left he was much better but lacking a true topline and that finishing layer of fat over the ribs.

Horse left because he was tripping all the time and his knee was sort of buckling, I took him to a clinic where they couldn't find anything truely signifigant on x-ray or ultrasound, so I told the owner he was welcome to stay with me as a pasture puff but that I wouldn't be riding him because I felt it was unsafe/unfair and I didn't have the $$$ for big-time diagnostics. Owner took horse to Cornell where they found a temp change in one knee with a thermometer (?) and prescribed shoeing changes.

Horse stays with owner, where he gives him to said girl to ride. Horse shows all summer, does fairly well in low divisions. Looks meh. Never finishes putting on that last bit of weight or muscle, but kid doesn't necessarily know how to put correct flatwork on a horse.

Fast forward to December 2008, when horse comes to the barn I am managing. Horse is again thin - about a 3-4 on the BCS scale. We are feeding him a large amount of food (8+ pounds of Strategy, free choice grass hay, 3+ pounds (dry weight) of soaked alfalfa cubes) and he has gained some weight, but still looks very poor. I know some of this is needing muscle, but I expect my pasture puffs to carry more muscle than this horse has in light work.

Horse is regularly rotationally dewormed, has had teeth done. This horse, back before he was starved, was an easy keeper and lazy, for a TB. Horse doesn't have the spark he used to, still will work, but are nagging him every step.

In my heart I know something is going on with this horse - I knew him before he was like this, and can't chock it up to age or anything like that. Girl is clueless about sick horses (lucky for her, not much experience in that department!), hopes/thinks he's just skinny, and owner has slight delusions of grandeur of horse returning to former potential (high level jumping is what the horse was bred for, he crashed a fence as a 4 year old, causing the chronic knee thing I mentioned earlier).

Can anyone think of what could be going on? I know horse should be seen by a vet, but feel that I need to have something more to tell them that their horse isn't right...

[shawneeAcres]

SOunds like EPM is a possibility. HAve him evaluated by a vet

[Simkie]

Maybe cancer? Chronic low grade infection? Might be worth running some bloodwork and seeing if anything pops.

[grouseviz]

If it's not EPM I'd check him for Cushings and Insulin Resistance. Check with EQCushings list on yahoo for how to safely and correctly blood test for both.


As with humans they are what they eat, the fact that he was starved probably mucked up his metabolism and now he's probably more sensitive to changes and he probably needs a good safe diet of the right stuff. He sounds like he has low grade, chronic laminitis. It's not neccesarily how much they eat but what they eat that makes the difference.

[hollyhorse2000]

What the others said, plus ulcers . . .

[FindersKeepers]

It definitely sounds like he needs a full exam and bloodwork. Lots of them never rebound to their former selves after being starved. My TB mare was a rescue when I got her. She was a 1-2 on the scale, wormy, etc.

She is in good shape now, but is an extremely hard keeper, and if the wind blows the wrong way, she drops 50 pounds. She did develop ulcers at one point, and once we got that treated, she really blossomed.

I'd just tell them you are worried about his weight and energy level and think some bloodwork to check his metabolism might be a good place to start. There's really nothing more you can do, since he doesn't belong to you. You could spit off all kinds of diagnoses like EPM, EPSM, Cushings, IR, Ulcers, Lyme, etc. But I think the poor boy will end up a pincushion for all kinds of tests. Start with the basics and go from there.

[Hampton Bay]

What was his worming history while he was starved? My bet is if they didn't feed him, they didn't worm him.

If he has been on a regular worming program since you rehabbed him, I would do a PowerPac (adding probiotics at the same time), and switch him to a low-starch feed. TC Senior, if you can get it, is high in fat and low in starch, so it might be a better fit than Strategy. Not all horses with metabolic issues are fat; some of them are very hard keepers.

If I didn't see some improvement within about a month after trying those two things, then I would suggest having the vet out.

[gabz]

Does he get any multi-vitamin / mineral supplements? Since you are in PA, I suspect could be lack of several mineral balances.

You could also try feeding flax or something to get Omega 3s and 6s into him.

I use Peak Performance Nutrients Pro VM w/EFAs.... might be a little more than what he needs, but you could do 1/2 scoops for a while and then bump up. It has joint stuff, MSM, selenomethionine, E, and 40 something other ingredients. I get it through KV Vet.

Or... Platinum performance or Uckele, or Smart Pak... I think Grand Hoof has a mixture too.

For added fat, I use Purina Athlete. It really makes a difference with horses that just need a little more umph in their diet. You only need to feed a few CUPS of it. Add to his strategy or soaked hay cubes.

See if the young lady can do some long trotting with him. No posting - in 2-pt for him to use his back.

[Patty Stiller]

You might also want a second opinin on the teeth. Sometimes things get missed. One bad tooth way in the back ,or a misaligned tooth can mean the difference.
As well, maybe some general blood work might reveal something.
Or maybe he just needs a higher fat diet because of his age. I have taken on a few "sort of rescues" (thin project horses) over the years and TBs are notorious for being harder to get weight back on at older age once they slip into a too-thin state.

[Personal Champ]

Ok, let me address some of the questions...

First, let me add that this horse is a cribber - has been since I've known him, which is forever, it seems. So ulcers is definitely a possibility....

As for laminitis/diet, when I had him he was eating Blue Seal Carb Guard. He looked better, but still not great. Not saying that it isn't a factor, just that he has been on a low-starch diet.

Re: worming. Sure thing, wasn't wormed while starved. I double Ivermectin-ed him, but unsure if she did a Powerpac this year.

No vitamin supplements, but he is on Dumor Hoof and a joint supplement.

I'm no vet, and I know that things can manifest strangely, but I truely feel this horse transcends worminess. I really am afraid that something is WRONG.

[danceronice]

Test for EPM. Seriously. Stumbling and being NQR can definitely be an indicator.

[Penthilisea]

Lymes?

[yellowbritches]

Simple, especially since you are "in charge" of his daily care. "I'm noticing Poopsie, despite our best efforts, is not thriving the way he should. [List the issues you are seeing] I highly recommend we have the vet out/take him to the clinic for a good physical and possibly blood work, as these issues are often symptoms of a much bigger problem, such as [list various things people have listed here], especially when they go on as long as they have with him. Hopefully, it is something simple, but I think, in his best interest, we really need to get him looked at and treated so he can thrive and feel great!"

I am a barn manager as well, and consider it my DUTY to bring to light issues in a horse and suggest things that might be needed for a horse (whether it as simple as a "hey, I think maybe we should try X supplement for his Y issue"), INCLUDING AND ESPECIALLY a visit with the vet. Don't be afraid, just be polite and tell them what you are seeing and why that's not good and what it could, potentially mean.

And you are right, it does sound like there is a deep issue here. I would totally consider ANY of the things listed, and also even maybe EPSM, which doesn't happen frequently in TB, but can (I know a TB that had it diagnosed with a muscle biopsy, and went through hell with him to try and get him on the right track).

[JB]

I would definitely treat for encysted stronglyes.

"Regular" deworming can lead to a horse with a very high encysted stronglye population, and that can keep them unthrifty. That's an easy, quick thing to do, and IME weight and better looks tends to come on pretty quickly after doing it.

You can do a Power Pack (5 days of double dosing fenbendazole) or you can use Moxidectin (Quest).

[BornToRide]

I would also check for Cushings and ulcers possibly first.

[Personal Champ]

Simple, especially since you are "in charge" of his daily care. "I'm noticing Poopsie, despite our best efforts, is not thriving the way he should. [List the issues you are seeing] I highly recommend we have the vet out/take him to the clinic for a good physical and possibly blood work, as these issues are often symptoms of a much bigger problem, such as [list various things people have listed here], especially when they go on as long as they have with him. Hopefully, it is something simple, but I think, in his best interest, we really need to get him looked at and treated so he can thrive and feel great!"


This is exactly what I wanted to do, I just didnt know what to say might be wrong with him. I don't want to scare the owners, just want them to take this seriously, and was afraid if I said, "he's just not quite right, call the vet" they wouldn't.

ETA: We are picking up a tube of Quest this weekend, will start there.

[KnKShowmom]

You mentioned he was a cribber, which would not explain the tripping, but could contribute to his poor body condition. I know some horses who crib all day and look fine, but for the majority, esp TB's, it can really pull them down.

I agree with worming and testing for EPM, but I would also suggest a cribbing collar, at least when he is in the stall, if not 24/7.

[BornToRide]

Cribbing more often than not is associated with ulcers

[Ambrey]

The first thing my vet wanted to do for my horse, who is doing OK but not quite thriving, is pull a blood panel to check for liver and kidney function and such. Isn't organ damage a possible outcome of malnutrition?

[yellowbritches]

This is exactly what I wanted to do, I just didnt know what to say might be wrong with him. I don't want to scare the owners, just want them to take this seriously, and was afraid if I said, "he's just not quite right, call the vet" they wouldn't.
But YOU'RE not the vet. It isn't your job to diagnose. That's what the vet is for. You have lots of good reasons to call, and now at least you have a few possibilities of things that could explain the horse's issues, but the fact of the matter is, you KNOW there is something wrong, you've exhausted your resources in trying to fix it from your end (good management and good feeding). You need back up now. Your well with in your rights and job description to tell them he's not right and needs medical attention. If they decline, at least you've brought it to their attention, and now it will fester in their brain.

If they do decline, you can also cover your butt by saying something along the lines of "Well, alright. I really think we should get to the bottom of this, and I really think we need the vet. But if you rather not, I'll continue to do what I can from my end. But I can't promise/guarantee that what I can do is going to help."

*sigh* It always bugs me when horse owners think those that care for their horses are stepping out of bounds by suggesting a vet might be in order. I know sometimes they are afraid of bad news, but most times I think they just don't want to have the bill. Funny thing is, that if they would have the vet out when something is a little wrong, it will be far cheaper and far less heartbreaking rather than waiting until things are really wrong. :no:

[Personal Champ]

A cribbing collar does NOTHING for this horse. The only kind that works is the kind that drives the spikes into his throat, and he has the white haired scars to prove that it was used on him in the past. I know that cribbing can cause them to be unthrifty, but the horse has always cribbed and been an easy keeper in the past.

Absolutely not my job to diagnose. I kinda hoped to put a bit of healthy fear in them, so that they would act, and quickly.

I spoke to the girl this afternoon. Hasn't Powerpac'd or Quest'd, so we are grabbing a tube. She said that she has noticed the things I was saying, but the owner kept saying he was just thin, etc. She is seriously a great girl, wants to do the best by the horse, just is not real familiar with sick/not thriving horses, and unfortunately, is just a kid who pays all her horse bills herself. So, for her and the horse's sake, I hope it is worms.

[yellowbritches]

How kind is your vet or the kid's vet? I know some great vets (both talent wise and generosity wise) that will find ways a teenager can offset or pay their vet bills by helping the vet out some how. I know a few Young Riders that were taught to do a proper prep and scrub for joint injections, and do that when they can to work off their vet bill. If you've got a kindly vet, maybe you can pull them aside and ask if there's anyway they can help a good kid out. Some vets rather see good kids who want to learn and be better horseman get their horses cared for rather than not and will help them out. Of course, then there are the stingy bastards who only care about the bottom line.

[Personal Champ]

Our local vet is really nice, but there are 2 problems with her: 1) she works for a stingy bastard and 2) she isn't very diagnostically equipped. We usually ship out for anything other than shots/wounds.