Drugging the performance horse?!?!?!

[jumpingmaya]

So, to make it short.... I want opinions on drugging performance horses. My BF team ropes and I have witnessed a handfull of people that ace their horses before roping off of them... 2 CC's is what is given and the above horses are "headers" which means that they actually pull/drag a cow.
It sounds EXTREMELY unsafe to me as the horses are asked to gallop down an arena, then drag a cow. 2 CC's for the average horse is quite a bit in my opinion so how do you guys feel about the practice of acing performance horses and asking them to perform?????? :eek:

[Sansena]

You mean aside from it being illegal to compete that way?!

[Fharoah]

I know many who do this and it can be unsafe as well as unethical and illegal. am aceing my rehab horse daily who had almost two year lay up. I am cutting down the dose every week until he is weaned off of it. Most of our ride is walk. My horse can still really spook on the ace.

[theoldgreymare]

Doesn't whatever governing body that covers team roping prohibit this? Do they drug test? Seems to me your friend is trying to give themselves an advantage that is not only dishonest (forbidden or not) and potentially dangerous.

Aceing for rehab is another story and a practice that I have no problem with in the interest of protecting horse and rider/handler.

[jumpingmaya]

I know many who do this and it can be unsafe as well as unethical and illegal. am aceing my rehab horse daily who had almost two year lay up. I am cutting down the dose every week until he is weaned off of it. Most of our ride is walk. My horse can still really spook on the ace.

I am in no way against ace. I had to use it to bring my mare back after a year of stall rest. I was only able to walk her under saddle at a walk for a couple of weeks and it was more than warranted. However, while performing, I'm appalled really!!!! :eek:

A lot of these ropings don't even have rules/regulations on this kind of stuff!!! I myself ride dressage and ride the jumpers (I think I qualify as a combined rider) and couldn't imagine asking my horse to perform while being drugged.... Never witnessed it at any of "my" horse shows either...

I was just looking for input on this...

[BEARCAT]

I know people that Ace their horse for Eventing... most smaller/unrated shows don't drug test.. And yes, I think it's BS as I often end up competing against them... I prefer to TRAIN my horse and have a good feeding program so that my horse is ready to compete safely...

[jumpingmaya]

I agree with all of you...
I just think it's pure lazyness... too much horse, not enough work= Ace them for an event :no:
Makes me cringe really....

[DMK]

You mean aside from it being illegal to compete that way?!

Is it? In the context that the OP is posing?

[Jenn2674]

I don't know that it is illegal in many disciplines. I had a vet tell me that it was common place for people to use reserpine in paint shows.

[merrygoround]

I do not believe it is a USEF recognized activity.

It would depend on the rules imposed by their governing body. And policing of those rules would involve the cost of testing. Without the ability to prove noncompliance with the rules, the governing body is out of luck.

Is It intelligent? NO

Is it safe? NO!

Will it stop? NO!

[mvp]

A few years back, I stood in the aisle at the barn of a BNT (really big-- hunters) and watched a groom Ace a horse before its ammy came to ride. Rolling of eyes about how bad the rider followed as well. The worst part is that I don't know if the woman riding the horse had any idea she was getting on a drugged horse.

If some competitive guys wants to drug his horse illegally, immorally or whatever, I can only say that it happens all over the places even at USEF shows. But drugging a horse without the rider's knowledge goes beyond what I think is safe or moral... and that happens alot, too.

-mvp

[#1Gunner]

From what I have been told, they seem to use Ace to help ward off the potential for the horse to get too worked up and possibly tie up. Just "taking the edge off" is how it was related to me. Particularly with young horses who might get tense and end up muscle sore....or who might find the work "exciting!"

Just what I've been told by rodeo folks...

jane

[bntnail]

I don't think there is any replacement for training. However there is a better drug for a young horse to use. I won't name it here, But it is one shot and will last up to 30 days. Is also a small dosage. Good for getting young horses used to hauling in situations where you don't have stabling. NOT FOR COMPETITION. Ace can flip flop on you and cause excitability. Some used to run race horses on it. Calm until adrenalin gets up, then very hot. Was very popular because not often tested for.

[Ghazzu]

I don't know that it is illegal in many disciplines. I had a vet tell me that it was common place for people to use reserpine in paint shows.

Just because it is done does not mean it is permitted.

From the APHA Rulebook:

SC-080. Prohibited Procedures
A. PROCEDURES AFFECTING PERFORMANCE OR NATURAL
CONFORMATION. Any Surgical procedure, injection or oral administration
of any foreign substance or drug which could affect the horse’s
performance or alter its natural conformation or appearance is prohibited,
except for those surgical procedures performed for the sole purpose
of protecting the health of the horse.

[mvp]

People use drugs for different reasons, and for different disciplines. I think any horse ought to be taught to do his job, not drugged as a short cut.

But roping horses have a particular job and are of a particular type. They need to be rideable, but also so autonomous and bold that they are willing to have a cow tied suddenly to their back. It's a tough job for a particular kind of horse. It presents particular psychological challenge.

As in any discipline, there are those fantastic horses that do a tough job well and many, many more who can't take it. I don't get it, but ropers might want the combination of plenty of adrenaline and rideability that they think Ace offers in the short term.

I also don't get using drugs to help with training problems in young horses, but that may be because I don't have lots of experience with that and have the luxury of being an ammy who has the time to get a horse to the ring when he's ready, not when my clients or their wallets want.

-mvp

[Bluey]

Don't know where you are, but people here rope all the time and they don't use anything on their horses.
Many of those rope to treat cattle out in the pastures and haul directly to the ropings in the evenings.

If a horse is ridden right, he doesn't need anything to, when "have a cow suddenly tied to it's back", not act up.:D

Maybe someone that only rides in the weekends, but if so, they probably have more problems than a fresh horse.;)

I will ask them about this next time I see some of those that rope in competition.:confused:

[BornToRide]

I keep hearing about this in many Western horses and also in Arab circles.

I agree that often too much horse is created, wither from nutrition that is too rich or simply wrong breeding, creating very high strung individuals, which they then try to control with drugs.

It is totally unethical and I wish they would crack down more on such practices.

[Beverley]

As a mere amateur who's trained horses (western and English, many disciplines) since the 60s, I've always been of the opinion that if you need to drug a horse to get it to successfully execute some performance activity (including 'non-competitive' activities like foxhunting), then the horse is not ready for the activity, either due to lack of training or temperment. For some horses, some activities just don't suit. I've always noticed people 'in a hurry' to get a horse to a certain level of performance, I guess I've just never been in a hurry.

As for safety, yes, I still carry in my feeble brain the image of a horse crashing and burning into a rolltop, way back when, owner was seen giving Ace to the horse before the class. Not for me, thanks. Mind you, I do know people who have routinely used Ace for years and say they've never had such a problem. Good for them, but I'm still not going there.

I once helped reschool a former ASHA national working hunter champion who had been shown exclusively 'on the needle.' Took us about two years but when the horse systematically had a chance to understand what was wanted, he was fine. We had a blast showing and hunting him drug-free.

I have a friend who purchased a horse from a trainer known to routinely use Ace during training. She liked the horse well enough, but noted she pretty much had to start over on the over fences training, the horse just had not processed some crucial details.

Like Bluey, I've not ever known anyone to drug, or need to drug, a roping horse. But I could tell you about the time I watched a friend use my little 14.3h mare, 900 lbs max, to rope a 2,000 lb rodeo bull and haul it to the right exit gate in the arena. That was impressive! And drug free.:)

[Woodland]

With the exception of horses in recovery, it is never acceptable in my book to ever drug a horse to ride it - never ever ever ever.

[Sansena]

I do not believe it is a USEF recognized activity.

It would depend on the rules imposed by their governing body. And policing of those rules would involve the cost of testing. Without the ability to prove noncompliance with the rules, the governing body is out of luck.

Is It intelligent? NO

Is it safe? NO!

Will it stop? NO!

Thank you.

[Bluey]

I asked some barrel racers and ropers I know about this and they told me that a very few people drug their horses a little bit, thinking it will make them more manageable entering the gate for a barrel race or in the roping box.

Those I asked said that they felt the few that did that were doing it out of superstition more than any real need, so it was helping the RIDER feel more in control, that in those circumstances any adrenaline the horse was using overran any little ACE they received and if they had more than a little ACE, the horse would not perform fast enough, reflexes were slowed and the chance of the horse stumbling that much greater.

It seems that a few may do run their horses drugged, but that the majority think it is silly and mostly ineffective when in competition.
They don't test for it, as it doesn't really enhace a horse's performance and that is one of the criteria for testing, to maintain a level playing field for all contestants.

There is talk in those venues of drug testing for other, like bute or banamine, as those can be harmful to the horse, if he is run sore when it should be examined by a vet, the reason found and maybe rested.

So, it seems that the question posed is a little more complicated than it seems at first hand.

[jumpingmaya]

[QUOTE=Bluey;3906971]I asked some barrel racers and ropers I know about this and they told me that a very few people drug their horses a little bit, thinking it will make them more manageable entering the gate for a barrel race or in the roping box.

Those I asked said that they felt the few that did that were doing it out of superstition more than any real need, so it was helping the RIDER feel more in control, that in those circumstances any adrenaline the horse was using overran any little ACE they received and if they had more than a little ACE, the horse would not perform fast enough, reflexes were slowed and the chance of the horse stumbling that much greater.

Still think it's silly but in this case, this horse (one I have in mind in particular...) is given 2 CC's. That's quite a bit for an average size horse- under 16hands. I mean his eyes are halfway shut within 20 mins. :eek:


Thanks everyone for the input. Just to give a little more info, I was apalled because one of the horses I used to ride for my BF's father when helping them work cows. He was the best all around horse... did have a nice buck in him (I know... don't go there... I'm sure he really needs a chiropractor, new saddle and his hocks looked at) but he would do whatever you asked of him once warmed up. This guy bought him, after riding him for 4-5 months roping off of him, knowing what kind of horse he was. Well, this horse's brain is now fried. Freaks out constantly even in his stall, can't take him for a simple ride... He is just constantly on edge... And I really do wonder if the ace is now acting opposing effect and this guy just doesn't realize it!!!
Most of these ropings are put on by "cowboys" and not recognized. I know their is one coming up that is FEI recognized, and will be interested to see who has the guts to show up as they do drug test at those...
Thanks again for the input. In my book, if you need to drug it for it to do it's job... or it's not ready... or it's not meant to be doing that job!!!
Drugging it doesn't ever FIX anything.... :no:

[BornToRide]

Well, this horse's brain is now fried. Freaks out constantly even in his stall, can't take him for a simple ride... He is just constantly on edge... And I really do wonder if the ace is now acting opposing effect and this guy just doesn't realize it!!!

This could very well be diet related. The horse may be high on grain and /or alfalfa. Do you know what they feed him?

[findeight]

Whatever.

There is no "they" involved in much of the jackpot roping events that go on, no registry or breed organization runs them or administers any rules that may exsist. To my knowledge there are no rules in anything but USEF/USHJA and affiliates, the breed registries and at least one state. And enforcement is non exsistent to spotty at best in all but the top levels where it's just spotty.

Even cutting and reining competitions run by those specific organizations have had NO drug rules or no enforcement effort at all.

And, really, you ask somebody if they routinely ace them at some of these team roping or penning competitions? You really expect the truth????

My late brother in law did some (bad) team roping and alot of (better) penning but had a suitable horse that was suitably trained and never used the stuff.

Good thing as he was usually the one half in the bag:lol:.