Was fine, now isn't.... re: clipping

[LSM1212]

My horse was always fine with being clipped (muzzle, legs, bridle path, etc.). He even was body clipped in the past w/o issue. The only thing he won't let you do is clip his ears. That's fine... I do it once a year when he is tranq'd for his sheath cleaning in the spring (just do the swipe of the outside tuff hairs) as he doesn't grow much hair there anyways and he's good 'til the next year.

Welp... now he won't let me do his bridle path. He'll fall asleep while I do his legs (I keep the hair a bit shorter as he had a bout with scratches last year) and is fine with me doing his muzzle and all around his head and throat area (just clean up, not full clip). The last time I did his bridle path was the beginning of November (I know, my bad... I've let him "go" this winter) and he was fine. I tried to do it this past Monday. I always use my small face clippers. I had him tied in his stall and then I got my milk crate out to stand on. I stood on the crate and pushed his halter back to get to the area and went to clip and he FREAKED OUT! WTF??? Same routine I've always done. So I tried to calm him down about it and was totally confused on why he was freaking out. He broke the tie. :sigh: So I get my scissors out instead figuring, okay... fine. Be a butt head but nothing to be scared about with scissors, right? NOT! He wouldn't let me do that either.

Hmmmmm... this is new.

The dentist is coming out next weekend to do his teeth (he is due) so I'm wondering if that might have something to do with it (sensitive in that area). The PT guy came after I attempted to do the clipping and was able, with a fight, to check the poll area out. He was a little tight in a few spots, but nothing that explained this behaviour.

So I'm at a loss. I haven't tried clipping since though I have been trying to mess with him in that area. I was catching him yesterday to bring him in and was adjusting the halter at the top and he jerked his head up again. Huh???? He does it on both sides.

Any thoughts? Any ideas? I really hate to have to tranq him each and everytime I want to clean up his bridle path. If he won't tolerate the clippers in that area anymore, that's fine. I don't mind using scissors. But he won't let me do that either. :no:

[tidy rabbit]

Did you try a lip chain or a lip twitch?

Sometimes it's just behavioral and not necessarily anything wrong with them.

Also, you might try stuffing his ears with cotton and having someone who is holding him cover his eye so he can't see what you're doing.

Dodger used to have to have his eye covered when his back feet were being trimmed. If he couldn't see what the farrier was doing it was all fine. LOL. (I'd just cup my hand like a blinder around his eye so he couldn't see behind him)

[LSM1212]

I tried a lip twitch when we attempted to do his ears when I first got him. It was a no go. :D

Hmmm... I do the "cup his eye" when the vet comes as he behaves much better about shots, etc. when I do that (and gives me an excuse not to look either). Will see if I can sucker someone at the barn into helping me. ;) Either clip him for me while I cup his eye or vice versa. It will literally take 20 seconds.

Stuffing his ears is a no go... can't get near his ears except to lightly stroke them on the outside and that's only if he's having a good day! He REALLY doesn't like his ears messed with. And yes, I've had the Vet check them out... nothing wrong. Completely behavioural. You can tell he was ear twitched as a youngster and he's never forgotten.

Thanks! Didn't think of that.... as you can see, he's not getting better about things. I think I've ruled out the other issue. I think it's completely behavioural with all of his "antics". :sigh:

[SkipHiLad4me]

Could you have shocked him by accident when you touched his head to move the halter? That will freak out my almost bomb proof horse quicker than anything. He'll act like I'm trying to kill him.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

One time my TB was hanging out the door of his stall then all of the sudden flung his head up and hit the top of his head pretty hard on the door frame.

He wouldn't let me touch him in the bridle path/forehead area for a few days.

Maybe he did something simple like experienced some trauma to his head?

[LSM1212]

Skip: No, don't think I shocked him. I didn't feel any electricity!

TF: Who knows... he might have bonked his head. But it's been a week now... guess he's not over it. :)

I'm going to wait until the dentist comes out and see what he says. Might be that he needs his teeth floated in the back and it's creating pain upward (I know when my jaw hurts, it can give me pain up into my head). And then go from there.

Just thought I'd get some insight from the BB. If anyone else has experienced this. I just don't get the.... fine all the time to all of a sudden, not fine with it. :confused:

[tidy rabbit]

I had a mare who wouldn't let me clip her ears or her bridle path.

I moved to a different barn where the grooms would clip everyone on the same day. Just go down the aisle and do all the horses one after the next.

I showed up, mare's ears & bridle path look immaculate. I ask them if they had to twitch her or anything and they said "no, it was no trouble at all."

As with so many things with that mare, I think it was more about my relationship with her.

[LSM1212]

TR: That's my next option. I can pay for the service at my barn. But I feel just a bit silly doing that since I'm the only Hunter person in the barn! My trainer is always complementing me on my horse's turn out and I'm the 'go to' girl when people need help on their horse's turn out. For pete's sake, I gave a grooming clinic to the little ones last year! :lol: But it might be the association w/ me for some reason. Don't know. But if the dentist doesn't find anything and I still can't do it after his visit, I think I'll set that up. He might be fine for someone who doesn't know he's a freak about his ears and such. But I swear I didn't do anything different than usual re: his bridle path. I was shocked he threw a fit!

If that doesn't work, he's due for a Legend booster soon so will have the Vet out and tranq him so I can clean him up. Hate to do that but it looks aweful! And then I'll work with him more regularly. I think that's key for him as I've slacked a bit this winter (used to clean him up every month at least) and it's been almost 4 months now. He just might need that constant handling/reminder about that kind of stuff.

[CJBean]

I think you just need to retrain him with the clippers. I would just try each day by taking out the clippers turning them on and just start by holding the clippers near his shoulders, if no reaction, praise him and retreat by taking clippers away or turning off. Then retry again by bringing clippers closer and closer to his head, baby steps. Just make sure you praise him when he stands still and move clippers away from his head when he is good.

If you go at him with the clippers and he moves or shakes his head you can't take the clippers away from that area till he stands still, then immediately praise him and turn clippers off when he is good. If you just take baby steps eventually he will understand that by standing still the uncomfortableness will go away.

[pony89]

He's definately still fine with other areas? When my mare suddenly refused to be clipped, it turned out that I had let my clipper blades get dull, and was yanking out her poor chin hairs :no:. Switched blades, and she was good as new. THis seems unlikely since he is fine with other areas being clipped, but maybe there is something wrong w/the clippers/blades that caused him to experience pain while you were doing his bridle path?

He's not extending his ear shyness to include "near" or "behind" the ears, is he? Can you still groom/comb the area?

[LSM1212]

Thanks for the tips.... I've done that before in an attempt to get him to let me clip his ears. Didn't work. He never settled down. And it just ended up frustrating the both of us after many months of trying. I can get all the way up his neck to about 3 inches or so from his ears. He won't relax (he would keep his head up and my arm would get tired before he would give in). But when I used to get on my milk crate and do his bridle path, he was fine. So I stopped trying and figured it wasn't worth it anymore and I'd just do his ears when he's tranq'd for his sheath cleaning and he wouldn't be any wiser. ;) But the hair doesn't really grow that much on his ears so I wasn't too concerned about that method. But his bridle path is another story.

I guess what I don't understand is the sudden change. I use the same clippers on his face, muzzle, etc. and then was going to do his bridle path and be done. I use the smaller ones for those areas. I have heavier duty ones for his legs and such. So I don't think the blade is dull as he was fine with me clipping his muzzle, jowl, etc. I'm using the same clippers I have always used. I can't even get the clippers near the bridle path so it can't be 'tugging' on him. But maybe it did last time? Good point. I'll change out the blades just in case. But I can't get it near him now... how do I get him to understand it's fine? And then when that didn't work, I tried scissors (I don't care which way I clip his bridle path) and he did the same thing (eyes rolled back, freaking out). :confused:

Yes, he's fine w/ me brushing in front and behind his ears. He's never been great about it (as you are near his ears ~ just a slight raising his head up but I just gently tug on his halter for him to lower his head and say "knock it off" and he lowers it back down) but nothing has changed on that front since the day I bought him. And I can comb out his mane w/o issue and even comb the ugly looking mohawk of a bridle path. :D

But with the clippers/scissors... you could see the white in his eyes and that he truly was afraid. Not just giving me a hard time! :lol:

He is much better if you come at his face from the front instead of the side. But that's the norm for him. And doing the bridle path before, I was coming from above/back instead of the side.

You know what's funny? He's fine w/ bridling and you messing with his ears to do that and I can put anything over his head (bossy bib and blanket) and even get it caught on a ear for a few seconds and he's fine.

I'm wondering if one of the kids came in one day and started waving clippers at him!!!!!!

[mvp]

I have an "ear sissy" of a gelding as well. I'll tell you how I am working on this with him-- it takes a sh!tload of time.

My first guess is that your horse is a tad paranoid about the whole poll, ear area to begin with. Or he may now be "raising his standards." You might have been able to do his bridle path before, but now he's renegging since it is, after all, so close to the off-limit ears.

I like the suggestions about training him to accept clipping. He doesn't have to like it, but he does have to let you do it.

I finally figured out that my horse was more afraid of the "wrestling" I'd do with him to have him lower his head than the clipping itself. Of course when he jerked his head up and I touch him with the clippers in a way he didn't like, he reinforced his paranoia.

So I decided to teach him to lower his head first. I began by pinching his mane up as high as I can reach and keep pressing until he lowered his head, following him backward around the stall if I had too. If he lowers his head at all, I relax my fingers and praise him. I did this for everything-- haltering, putting on his bridle, whatever, until he understood the deal.

Once he knew this, it was easier to work on the clipping problem. You can still stand up on something, but don't tie him. Ask him to lower his head as you have taught him, and then desensitize him to the clippers.

The point of doing it this way is that you have already taught him how to make things better when bad things like clippers near ears happen. He needs a clue, or else he'll do what's obvious to him-- raise his head and make it hard to get the job done.

-mvp

[LSM1212]

MVP: Very valid points. You just brought up something I had completely forgotten about. He's always been the type that doesn't like to be "muscled" or "contained". If my trainer is leading him by the bridle and I'm on him, he's not a happy camper. Will fight with her. I think you are correct that it's the wrestling he's more leary about. When the PT guy is working on him and I need to hold onto his halter and he's working on an area that doesn't feel good, he's very cranky and fights being contained. So when it's something unpleasant, containing him (tying him or holding on to him) makes it worse.

He does lower his head for his halter and anything else I need to put over his head (bossy bib, martingale, etc). And when I bridle him, I usually have to crouch down a little bit as he lowers his head so much!

I will try and work with him untied and do the lowering the head exercise you suggested. It might be the containment that is concerning him more than the clipping. Though he's fine tied up when I'm clipping anywhere else (face, legs, etc). But you are probably right... he's protecting the poll area.

It got a little dangerous for me when I was on the milk crate as he kept side stepping towards me as if to knock me off. I tried the desensitizing while he was untied and following him around the stall. But he would still not lower his head and relax. Back to square one, I believe. :sigh:

So once we get to the desensitizing of the clipper stage, and I do stand on the milk crate after teaching him to lower his head, and he jerks it back up and walks away, do I take him back to the milk crate spot, and just keep asking for the head lowering? Then rinse and repeat?

[2ndyrgal]

yes, that's exactly what you do. I've got one just like him. He refuses to be "confined" if you're doing something he doesn't like. It's like he can't leave and he hates it. We progressed to doing the ears too, I just can't hold the ear, I just have to gently swipe the clipper around it. And you bet it takes practice.

[threedogpack]

Like many others said, I'd start with teaching him to lower his head (I use a bridle with a plain snaffle for French link) and I'd start with the clippers at his shoulder. I'd mark correct behavior with a "yes!" or "good" and quit.

My mare hated to have her ears handled, her face handled and was very reactive about it. Today, she will lower her head so I can see her bridle path to clip, and the cue that I am going to do her ears is when I cup my hand around the base of her ear.

Even with as good as she is, every spring I have to start over for her ears. She forgets and though it takes less time each year, I know to leave myself enough time to desense her, or re-teach her....

desensing takes time. When you try to force him to let you do it, you are setting yourself up for failure. Leave time for this and train the issue away.

[mvp]

I'm a big fan of teaching horses things one at a time, and not progressing till they really Get It for the step before. In this case, your horse should lower his head wherever, whenever before you repeat the whole thing while on the milk carton.

So there's one more step involved. Teach your horse to lower his (her?) head and leave all four feat planted on the ground. Sometimes you have to invited them to make a mistake and then correct them so that you can explain that you want the head down (really low) and feet planted.

Once you have your horse's head quite low-- like the nose around your knees, camp out for a while. Your horse will wonder if it's really necessary to stay there for awhile. Yes, it is. So, if you can get your horse to stay there, resist, then go back to the correction position and then takes gives a big sigh or chews, you can know you have made your point and let go. That sign is your horse saying "Ok, I have to stay here indefinitely. I can adjust to that." If you let go instantly, your horse knows this was the right conclusion.

I agree that you should be able to stand on a milk carton to clip, or else get your horse so broke that she puts her head way down for clipping. I want this for my gelding and his ears. We have yet to get there.

This is an "every day" type thing. My gelding does better with his ears during show season when he gets harassed rather frequently about clipping. Give him 6 months off from that and we have to almost start over. I like bugging him with any little battery-charged set of clippers which I leave in my grooming box. Whether I clip or not, it gets convenient for me to practice all this for a few minutes every day.

One more idea (if you can stand it!). If you horse digs treats, feed one or two of those after your horse has lowered her head and while you want her to hang out down there. She'll learn that head down is a good place, and the chewing will relax her jaws, allowing her mind to follow. But she has to lower her head for you first, and stay there even after she has swallowed the treat. This works well for my gelding who will sell you his soul for a peppermint.

-mvp

[LSM1212]

Yes, my guy is a treat 'ho. :) What kind of correction do you give? Just put them back and make them lower their head again? Or do you do any verbal or manual correction?

I can't go to the barn everyday but will start working on the "put your head down" step first.

I can skip the milk crate step if he'll lower his head enough that he would eventually let me clip/scissor the bridle path area. I only use the crate because he would stand with his head in a neutral position but I couldn't see what I was doing from the ground (he's 16.3hh). :D

He's a smart little bugger and stubborn too. I have a feeling this is going to take a REALLY long time.

In the meantime, I guess I've have the Vet out to tranq him so I can get it done before show season starts.

[mvp]

I think you are on the right track. I also think a really great show horse (worth, say, as much as your mamma's house or your baby's Harvard education) should be broke on the ground as well as under saddle). Come to think of it, why accept less for all that money?

Anyhoo-- if you teach your horse to put his nose by your knees, you shouldn't need the milk crate. So glad your horse is a treat ho-- that makes it all easier. Sometimes I think my horse's weakness for candy is a little advantage God gave me, the short chick, who wants the inside of her horse's ears clipped.

I try to make it really simple. The bridle path gets pinched when the head raises, and unpinched when the head is low. In theory, I should be able to stand with my relaxed hand on my horse's bridle path and have him stay there for anything. I tell him he's good when he puts his head down.

But what I'm really trying to teach him is to stay there. So I tell him he's good once when he puts his head down. Then when he thinks of raising it, I close my fingers slightly. He should lower it again. Then I feed him a treat and let him hang out down there and enjoy it. Then I let go. He can't comfortably stay there forever, so I try to reward him when I think he has conceded that he might have to.

I think the more whacky times and situations you choose to do this, the better your training will become. What if you repeated the exercise in the ring after you got off at the end of the ride? What if you did it when you caught your gelding in his paddocK? That helps him know that this "rule" applies everywhere, and isn't just the wind-up to a scary experience with clippers.

Same can go for clippers later. You can practice anywhere, anytime. Many trainers suggest working on stuff like this in the ring after a short ride. That's the situation in which your horse is already in training mode and thinking hard.

-mvp

[LSM1212]

Okay, small update. I started working on lowering his head with pressure last night, per your suggestion.

Boy, is my guy smart. He picked it up after the 3rd try. And when I would put my hand there and right before I put pressure on, he'd lower his head. And stand there waiting... patiently for the treat! I think he's been trained to do this before (like a said in a previous post, he lowers his head for just about everything else.... halter, bridle, martingale, blanket, etc.). I think he just needed a refresher course.

I did, while brushing out his mane, take the scissors out and just rested them behind his ear with the tips of the scissors on his bridle path while I brushed his mane. He didn't care.

Like I said before... I don't care if it's clippers or if I have to use scissors... I just want to eventually be able to do his bridle path!

Maybe it really was just a bad day the other day.

But I love the idea of training (or re-training) him to lower his head when asked. So I will keep working with him on that every time I go out to the barn (4-5 days a week) and adding different locations, etc.

Thanks again to everyone for your help. We have been having some "I'm in charge" discussions lately. I think he wants to take over and I've let him... just a little bit... w/o really noticing that I was doing that! So he's taking advantage of me. But I'm stepping up to the plate. And not tolerating any of that behaviour. It was never "bad" just the small things.

I know this process will take some time... and I have a little bit of time but not enough to get the job done before my first show.

So which would be better? Have him tranq'd and do his ears/bridle path when the Vet comes out the next time (in about a week or so) or attempt to do a nose twitch again and see if I can do his bridle path that way (I know I can't do his ears when he's twitched... he has to be tranq'd for that)?

Thanks!

[findeight]

Honestly, I think it's better to let the barn staff do the clipping and continue with your work on getting him to accept more contact with his ears, it takes time.

Tranqing when the vet comes for something else is not going to solve his problem (and you really do not want him to start to associate the clippers with the vet) and he sort of has your number here, I think. Plus that is inconvenient for you and not going to happen often enough for him to get over this ear thing. And he HAS to get over it.

Have seen owners swear they had to be twitched or tranqued for ears or bpath only to have a good groom just clip the horse in 3 minutes-ears and all. Something about their approach and body language just says they mean business and the horses consent without a fight.

Nothing wrong with a little ace on the real squirmy ones...as long as it is accompanied by continuing, daily work to help them get over it.

[LSM1212]

Thankfully, he only needs his ears done once a year. He doesn't grow much hair but just needs a quick clean up in the early Spring right before the show season starts. And then he's fine until the next year.

I've tried the desensitizing of the ears (per methods that were listed here) for months and months with him. It just ain't gonna happen. Something in his past rears it's ugly head and he just won't get over it. It's less stressful for him and me to tranq him for it. And he has to be tranq'd for his sheath cleaning so I just clip his ears at the same time. No fuss, no muss. But those 2 things (ears and sheath) were the only things he threw a fit about (and I'm not talking about just a little antsy, etc.... he'll toss you across the stall).

The bridle path issue is new. And I don't know if it was just a bad day or because the Vet was out earlier to do his shots and he thought he was being set up and was on high alert already or he's just decided that he won't tolerate it anymore. Who knows? Wish I could ask him. :)

I plan on working with him and be back to where we were the next time he needs to be clipped in the BP area. But for now, in the next few weeks, I have to get it done (can you say mohawk??). :D And I don't have time to do all of the desensitizing steps properly before my first show.

So this would be a one time deal (either tranq him or twitch him). Was just wondering what is the lesser of the 2 evils? It may be correct, that if someone else does it he might be fine (for the BP). But I've had others in the past try to do his ears and it was a disaster. I don't want to risk someone getting hurt. Now, don't get me wrong. He's not a raving lunatic or dangerous horse. But he can be quite the butthead when it comes to this stuff.

Will talk to my trainer/BM tonight and see if she'd like to give it a try first. We don't have grooms at our barn. If not, then I need another option.

[findeight]

If it is either/or?

Tranq him. They see that twitch coming no matter how sneaky you try to be and get upset.

IMO he is just extending that touchy zone around his ears because he is getting away with the ear part and, face it, none of them love the clippers. They just learn they have to tolerate them...and that happens more easily with frequent, no stress clipping then with infrequent attempts that turn into a big deal.

Oh...don't use scissors, no way it won't look hacked with a show coming up.

[LSM1212]

Well, I guess if I have to pick either tranq him for his ears or risk someone getting hurt, I'll pick tranq. I've been going through this for over 3 years now (ears only). And had spent almost a year working on it with him (when he was laid up) and then for another year after that. Just couldn't do it. IMO, there are just some things you can't train out of them as I don't know what happened to start the issue in the first place.

In a perfect world, I wish he'd just get over it and let me (or someone else) do it. But I just don't see that happening. To be honest, I don't overly stress about the ear thing since the method I've been using seems to work. And for the past 3+ years, he's been fine w/ me clipping his BP. This past incident is completely new. So something has happened (bonked his head, etc) to trigger this and I'm just trying to find something to break the new cycle w/o making it worse.

I'm not sure I can really believe that all of a sudden, one night, he decided that clipping his BP was not an option anymore. I can over analyze forever... but the fact of the matter is, it needs to be done. And I can still work with him as best as I can to get him more used his ears being messed with (I can touch them and run my hands over the tops, but once you close his ear to clip, it's all over). And I'll continue to work on the lowering his head advice I got here.

I've known many who use scissors for BP, ears, muzzle, etc. since their horse won't tolerate clippers at all. Thankfully, it's not that bad for us. He falls asleep when clip his legs and wants to play with the clippers when I do around his face and such.

I just have to get over this "hump"... part of the BP is my fault for not doing it as frequently as I used to.

I only do the local stuff anyways... Hunters and Eventing. :) So if it's not perfect, that's okay. The crownpiece will hide it anyways!!!

[touchstone-]

If it is either/or?

Tranq him. They see that twitch coming no matter how sneaky you try to be and get upset.

I don't know that I agree. Twitching works great for some horses. My guy sounds like LSM's--a perfect gentleman about most things, but tall and doesn't like his ears or bridle path clipped. I've found that if I just twitch and clip, no one gets upset, and he stands and behaves.

Might not work for everyone. But I find it easier, cheaper and less traumatic than drugs in my case.

[tidy rabbit]

Twitch and lip chains are a girls best friend.

I have a twitch that clamps on and doesn't require anyone to hold it. Makes bridle paths so easy and I've got young horses who often are not interested in behaving otherwise. I don't put up with any crap. If there's even a question about a horse letting me do whatever needs to be done, it's either the hands free twitch or a helper to hold a foot up (for applying wraps) or a lip chain or a shoulder twitch. Whatever is appropriate. But there aint gonna be no hanky panky in my barn.

[sspry]

I agree with TR- a quick twitch, clip and done. There are too many other factors involved in using tranq.

[LSM1212]

Spoke to my trainer/BM tonight. She's going to take care of it for me next week. And do the twitch (she has one that attaches so it can be a one man show) method. She is very experienced and she'll get it done. And she'll do his ears too!

I figured I'd remove myself, for now, from the situation. :)

[Beverley]

I've just skimmed the posts, apologies if I've missed anything.

If my reading comprehension is working, the horse used to be okay but now is not. Two things come to mind. First- maybe at some point he was exposed to too-hot clippers and didn't like it, hence the aversion. Second, make sure he doesn't have aural plaques. I've got a horse that has those (virus caused by fly/gnat irritation)- and I discovered them when one fine day he became concerned about a routine bridle path touchup.

I agree that teaching all horses to lower heads as described is a valuable tool. But- when it comes to clipping, I've learned over the decades that you just don't achieve what you want, long term, by 'any' forcing, be it twitches or holding the head down by any forcible means, even a trained one. Mind you, that's not to be confused with being taken advantage of by a horse that has your number.

My two youngish horses (4 and 6) are truly fine with all clipper work around the head, just hanging out on the cross ties. I do need a stool for the 6 yo who is taller (he's the one that had the aural plaque issue at age 3). The 4 yo had probably not been clipped more than once or twice before I got her a year ago. She was, understandably, wide-eyed, but with her as with all others, I found that a slow as you need to go approach worked just fine. Clippers running in one hand, rubbing area to be clipped with other hand, then rubbing area with same hand that's holding clippers, etc. I haven't needed to twitch a horse for anything since, let me think, early 1970s. Certainly I would do so if I was in a hurry for something specific- but for long term stuff like a lifetime of clipping, it's a shortcut that isn't going to get me where I want to be with the horse.