Input from organizers - Safety and # of horses entered/rider

[tommygirl]

My friend and I were chatting the other day while hacking out. It seems that the upper level riders are being allowed to have up to 8 horses at a given show, without a second thought.

My friend commented "If I hired a trainer to compete my horse, and that trainer had 8 rides, I would pull mine out." I agree. It seems a bit risky to be out there, especially at the upper levels, 6-8 times in a day. If safety is our focus, should we not limit the amount of horses/rider?

My thoughts: if there were a rule to limit horses/rider it would also open the spots for wait-listed people, and keep riders from choosing one show over another because all shows would have the same conditions. Also it would spread these entries over to other shows who need them...

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Heated or not :)

[advmom]

Limiting the number of rides in any given competition would also encourage those putting horses in training with someone to look further afield for trainers, than the latest 'flavor of the month ULR".
There are alot of very good riders/trainers at the Int/Adv level but only a very few are sent high numbers of horses.

[tommygirl]

Limiting the number of rides in any given competition would also encourage those putting horses in training with someone to look further afield for trainers, than the latest 'flavor of the month ULR".
There are alot of very good riders/trainers at the Int/Adv level but only a very few are sent high numbers of horses.

I agree fully. I saw results for one show where an ULR had 5 bad rides... out of 5.

What about a rider point system that can tell the organizers how much positive experience a rider has had - ie: rider X completed 7 Advanced trials on 4 different horses in 2008 without faults. Just a thought...

[flutie1]

My thoughts: if there were a rule to limit horses/rider it would also open the spots for wait-listed people, and keep riders from choosing one show over another because all shows would have the same conditions. Also it would spread these entries over to other shows who need them...

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Heated or not :)[/QUOTE]

Given the state of the national economy, I'm not sure you'll see many events with wait lists this year.

An organizer can limit the number of horses a competitor rides, but this should be made clear in the Omni. There used to be a rule. IIt disappeared several years ago.

[JER]

There used to be a rule. It disappeared several years ago.

Does anyone know why this was changed?

[enjoytheride]

But wouldn't you want a pro up on a green horse instead of the owner? A pro who is not only fit enough to ride all those horses in a row but experienced enough to give each horse the ride they need to be the best they can be.

I would rather have my horse with the best pro in the area and have them riding 5 horses then have my horse with some redneck cowboy "pro" because the best riders were already booked full by a new rule.

I also wonder how many of the "little" people get bounced onto a waitlist because a pro is taking up all the spots.

[FlightCheck]

Well, if the rider in question was Buck Davidson, he was entered in the Advanced, which was NOT full.

None of the Florida events this winter have been over-subscribed, so the point is moot for us down here this year.

[Kementari]

I don't think it's a question of Pro A riding a greenie or the owner riding a greenie: I think it's a question of Pro A riding the greenie or Pro B riding the greenie - or perhaps the greenie waiting to go until the event NEXT weekend.

I just can't imagine anyone being physically and mentally fit enough to ride EIGHT horses in a day, particularly as the courses get more technical. I can't help but think those last couple of rides are going to have much more potential to be far less thoughtful than the first couple.

I'm not so worried about the whole taking-up-spaces thing, but more about the safety issue. It would be interesting to have stats on how many accidents happen in a first ride vs subsequent rides, and how later rides (for the same person) may differ from earlier ones.

Of course, it would be really nice to have actual data on most of this safety stuff :sigh: (with kudos to Reed and Gnep and those who ARE collecting data!).

[retreadeventer]

The rule says it's at the discretion of the organizer.

But the new rule about "return to play" is one that would concern me - what if the trainer fell off the first horse of the day and the rest of the horses couldn't run? What a mess to the time table that would be!

[GotSpots]

Frankly, I'd rather have a pro like Philip or Boyd ride four or five horses than semi-clueless amateur/LLR try to ride 2 with no support help: the pro will have a system that makes sure they get on their horses and to the start box on time with a minimum of futzing around (in my admittedly limited volunteer experience, I've had to hold SJ rings open for clueless wonders (note, this is not everyone: but I swear y'all don't know who you are) trying to get 2 training horses done more times than I can count, while the pros whip through theirs quick and organized).

I think organizers are well within their rights to limit the number of horses in an event that tends to be oversubscribed, or set a very firm timeline on start times, but a blanket rule per se doesn't serve anyone. What I hate (as an amateur) is when organizers refuse to do "Rider" or "Amateur" divisions because they have so many pros with multiple rides than they feel like the divisions must all be "open" ones - so long as they try to work out a division for the rest of us, I could care less whether the ULRs have a bunch of good horses going around. And if they decide to scratch for whatever reason, well, shucks, that happens all the time anyway. People scratch and timetables recover (if anything, everyone goes home early).

[yellowbritches]

How many of the major accidents in the past couple of years have been with pros riding a large number of horses at the event in question?? I could be way off base here, but I think most of them had one or two on the day. I don't think this is a safety issue, at all.

Those big pros have well oiled machines back at the rig or in the barn. They waste not a single second. And, really, how long are they really on any one horse, even at one days? An hour, at most?? Even less if the event is spread out over a couple/three days. Most of these riders ride many horses a day, and most of them work out every day. They are very fit. They can handle it, and most, from what I can see, handle it quite well. Most look far more capable and safe on their last horse of a long, busy day than the overweight, out of shape ammy on their one horse, who is beet red, hyperventilating (if they are breathing) and loose in the tack. Most ride their horses smoothly and accurately, even at the end of the day, while a lot of badly coached (if coached at all) ammies and YRs fling themselves and their horses at break neck speeds to heart stopping distances.

The safety issue isn't how many someone rides in a day. The safety issue is HOW someone is riding.

[Blugal]

I agree with yellowbritches to a point.

The rules as they've been enforced in our parts have been maximum 5 horses per day per rider, although at times organizers have been stricter and limited it to 3, with only 2 per division.

When the pro was regularly riding 10 horses a day for 45 min.-1hr. each, a 5-horse day was a regular walk in the park, and it wasn't even that bad with dressage and stadium being on the same day. The real problem was fitting in the course-walks. (There have been instances of pulling up on course, whipping out the course-map, then continuing on...)

The safety issue as I see it is when a rider is suffering from tiredness. Either from a long drive there, too many horses in relation to number of grooms, number of XC course-walks (and whether scooters are allowed on course), long distances from stabling to the show areas, and even problems like having only one hose available for the entire stabling (it's happened) can cause huge time problems. Another issue can be heat stroke - riding 5+ horses in the heat of the day in your show jacket and then walking your courses...

[retreadeventer]

...............And if they decide to scratch for whatever reason, well, shucks, that happens all the time anyway. People scratch and timetables recover (if anything, everyone goes home early).


Aaahhhh....spoken like someone who has never run a warmup arena, or been a starter....must be nice to be so carefree! NOT

[galwaybay]

I totally agree w/ Yellowbriches and to add - for the PRO rider this is their livelihood - riding and competing is how they make their living - who are you/we/us to determine how they can earn their living/income.

While there are definitely safety issues one has to also be concerned about increasing or over-regulating the sport to the point where it becomes a "Nanny" sport.

[GotSpots]

Retread - not to be glib, but I have been both a starter and a warm-up steward - scratches if communicated well don't bother me much. It's the folks running late who made me crazy: someone who scratched and told me (as in the hypothetical posed above) just wasn't an issue for me, particularly if it meant I could nudge someone else further ahead.

[SevenDogs]

I totally agree w/ Yellowbriches and to add - for the PRO rider this is their livelihood - riding and competing is how they make their living - who are you/we/us to determine how they can earn their living/income.

While there are definitely safety issues one has to also be concerned about increasing or over-regulating the sport to the point where it becomes a "Nanny" sport.

Well said, Galway Bay! :yes: :yes: :yes:

Quite honestly, there are probably a whole host of professionals that are less tired riding multiple horses than I am riding ONE! While I, personally, would question placing my horse with a professional who is going to be riding a large number of horses at one event, I do not agree with making rules limiting them. If an Organizer wants to place limits based upon space availability or other factors, I support that, but not making rules just to make rules and certainly not, as one posted suggested, in order to "spread the wealth" among trainers. It should be be a free market system.