New rule in canada - no watch in lower levels

[Bravestrom]

Just wondered if this rule is in affect in the US but in Canada they have introduced this rule no watch at preentry, entry and pre-training.


Thoughts and opinions on this - most on the canadian forum don't like it - here is a link to a discussion on the topic.

http://www.equiman.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=127896&page=1

[Wee Dee Trrr]

It's definitely a neat and out-of-the-box way to go about trying to make people think harder and act safer. Not sure it will work or catch on... but it's a neat idea.

[Hony]

most on the canadian forum don't like it -


It's evenly split between those who like it and those who don't. (I counted and each side has 14 votes :D)
Just in case people are confused the levels Prodomus mentioned are the equivalent of BN and N.

[RedRazzle]

I don't wear a watch myself (or it never works when I want it to), and so far I have only competed at those levels. It's really cool to see how different terrain, jumps, your fitness level and mindset can all affect what time you come in at! There have been times where I felt like we were really pushing the lower time, but because of the terrain and approaching one or two jumps at a trot, we came in during the window. And twice we've clocked around a flatter course having a blast and been a minute under the optimum :D Clearly I've yet to get it right, but since I only get out 3 times a year or so, each event brings a new set of variables to the table. :)

[SuZQuzie]

I wasn't allowed to wear a watch until I proved myself out on the XC course, as per my trainer. Very valuable to my introduction to eventing, IMO. :)

[Viva]

This thinking drives me CRAZY. RedRazzle's post is exactly the reason why people SHOULD wear watches at the lower levels. Coming in a minute under optimum time is nothing to grin about--you're clearly riding at an unsafe speed for your level. Anyone who can canter can make the time at BN and N--350 mpm is not a gallop, folks, it's a happy forward canter. Watches at this level, if used correctly, will slow people down, not speed them up. You'll see long before the finish that your pace is too fast.
Here's how correct use of the watch can help:
1. At home, wheel 325, 350, 400, 450 meters and practice over and over riding these at 1 minute until you get a good sense of pace at the gallop. Add fences so you learn to account for any changes of pace for the jump.

2. At the event, wheel your course and note your 1-min, 2-min etc spots. Then when you ride your course, make sure you hit those spots at the minute markers. This is crucial, because different terrain, different jumps and xc adrenaline will affect your judgment of your pace. Feel stupid wheeling a BN course? Tell anyone who challenges you that you're trying to learn to ride a correct pace before it gets to a level where speed really comes into play. You'll get respect, not eye rolls.

3. repeat, repeat, repeat. Your goal at each event should be to come in as close to the OT as possible without going over. And remember, in case of a tie, they break it by whoever's closest to the OT, not by who's faster.

Rather than ban watches, I think they should narrow the window between OT and speed faults. If it's easier to get nailed for going too fast, people will be much more likely to slow down. It wouldn't hurt to have SF cost more than exceeding OT either--maybe .8 per second instead of .4.

[LAZ]

I'm against this particular rule and hope it never passes here in the states.

I think BN, Novice and Training are great levels to work on pace--and measuring out a course with minute markers and then riding to those markers is great practice, before things get too fast and busy at Prelim and up.

[talkofthetown]

When I read the title of this, I though, Oh, that's a really cool idea. Take away the pressure of making it under time. But as I thought about it, and read the replies, I'm not so sure I like the idea as much. I like what one of the Canadians said on that other site; let them keep their watches, but take away time penalties. If they're really that concerned about people speeding (to the point where it's not safe) then stop punishing them for going slow, and let them wear the watch as a learning opportunity.

[asterix]

Coming in a minute under optimum time is nothing to grin about--you're clearly riding at an unsafe speed for your level.

Have to disagree. I came in about a minute under at my young horse's first Novice, because the course was flat, open, and obviously wheeled generously (a VERY experienced BNT giving another greenie his first go told me she came in a minute under, also). I promise you that was not unsafe for the level; it was, on the contrary, the best, most balanced, rhythmic course I've ever ridden, and I've competed through preliminary a bit and on 5 different horses at novice and training. I was not looking at my watch at all, just focused on giving him a nice steady confidence-building ride -- but he is a big horse with a big stride, and that's where we came in.

This is the problem -- it's really hard to make blanket statements about what is "safe" and what is "appropriate" -- we've all seen folks going way too fast (at prelim, certainly, some of those folks come in with time faults because they waste so much time setting up for and fighting through the combos) and folks going dangerously slow.

Learning how to pace yourself for the horse AND the course is a critical skill, and I am not sure BANNING watches is the way to go. I agree, though, with your thought that perhaps at the lower levels going too fast should be penalized more than going too slow....

[GotSpots]

I don't like the idea - because too many people (like it or not) don't have as many opportunities to learn about pace outside of competitions. A watch permits a BN or N rider, during the course, to see and adjust their pace. Finding out after the fact that you were a minute too fast does not allow the rider to adjust as they are feeling the canter/gallop: the watch lets you adjust mid-course to slow down. Sure, wheeling a course at BN/N feels a little stupid - but as LAZ said, why not do it so you can educate yourself as to pace?

[RedRazzle]

[QUOTE Anyone who can canter can make the time at BN and N--350 mpm is not a gallop, folks, it's a happy forward canter.

Rather than ban watches, I think they should narrow the window between OT and speed faults. QUOTE]

Pre-Training (Novice) speeds are set generally at 400mpm in Ontario. I would consider that as starting to learn how to gallop.

The window between OT and speed faults is 30 seconds - is that too big?

My experience was like asterix's: the round itself flowed well, was balanced, rhythmic, and acceptable to my coach, who got to see about a third of the fences. Either I made a mistake in speed, or the timers made a mistake (as I passed the girl in front of me due to her several refusals and ultimate elimination). Does the time really matter if the round was good? Personally, I care about that more than the time at this stage in my learning.

[fanfayre]

The reason this rule was enacted is due to the fact that so many riders at these levels were riding the WATCH the whole way around the course, you know, blast out of the start gate, gallop at a hellish pace, look at the watch, haul on the horse's face to get it to trot, look at the watch, gallop on at the hellish pace, look at the watch, trot..(I'm sure you're getting the picture:winkgrin:), instead of practicing the pace required for that level AT HOME:yes:(you know, practice homework), and knowing the feel of the pace so they could ride at a rhythm around the course. I think they should have gone further and narrowed the window to 20 or even 15 seconds!(Yes, I'm mean, but I've been eventing for nigh on 30yrs, and I don't like this "dumbed-down" version much)
Sorry GotSpots, I disagree about not having the opportunity, as I'm sure you've realized by what I've posted, but pace can be practiced anywhere, even in an arena to a point (i'm thinking up to 400m/min if the arean is large enough). Heck, if the TB trainers fit their animals up in arenas when it's not possible to do it outside or on tracks, why can't we? Alternatively, why don't the instructors hold "pace clinics" 2 or 3 times before eventing season begins, or throughout the season so people CAN practice the pace. It's a common occurrence with my instructor when she holds clinics, and at many of the clinic series we hold here in BC. One of our more respected riders holds 6-day summer camps at his farm, and one of those days is dedicated to pace. It's really fun and very interesting to see how close to(or far from) the ideal pace for your level you are!

[DRTY.2]

I don't think narrowing the window would be helpful. What about people who are almost ready to move up and are practising going at the faster pace?

Say you were riding a course that was 2000m.

If BN speed is 350mpm you would have to ride the course in 5 minutes and 43 seconds.
If N speed is 400mpm you would have to ride the course in 5 minutes.
If T speed is is 470mpm you would have to ride the course in 4 minutes and 15 seconds.

Those are pretty big time differences so wouldn't you like to see a horse that can do the time safely at the lower level before it moves up to bigger jumps?

[Larbear]

I never wore a watch when I was going pre-training (or novice when I started doing events in the States). As long as you kept up a steady decent canter/hand gallop, time was not an issue. When I evented in Ontario at pre-training, I was doing so on a pony as well and don't recall having issues making time...even if I had a refusal or run out. Did they change the speeds or anything? Bear in mind though that I did pre-training in Ontario back when there was no recognized level below pre-training and vests weren't manditory so things may have changed since then. I don't know that one really needs a watch at pre-training for the most part anyway. I do use a watch at Training level though and would probably use a watch if I was going Novice with the intent to move up to Training level at the next event or so.

[Ibex]

This thinking drives me CRAZY. RedRazzle's post is exactly the reason why people SHOULD wear watches at the lower levels. Coming in a minute under optimum time is nothing to grin about--you're clearly riding at an unsafe speed for your level. Anyone who can canter can make the time at BN and N--350 mpm is not a gallop, folks, it's a happy forward canter. Watches at this level, if used correctly, will slow people down, not speed them up. You'll see long before the finish that your pace is too fast.
Here's how correct use of the watch can help:
1. At home, wheel 325, 350, 400, 450 meters and practice over and over riding these at 1 minute until you get a good sense of pace at the gallop. Add fences so you learn to account for any changes of pace for the jump.

2. At the event, wheel your course and note your 1-min, 2-min etc spots. Then when you ride your course, make sure you hit those spots at the minute markers. This is crucial, because different terrain, different jumps and xc adrenaline will affect your judgment of your pace. Feel stupid wheeling a BN course? Tell anyone who challenges you that you're trying to learn to ride a correct pace before it gets to a level where speed really comes into play. You'll get respect, not eye rolls.

3. repeat, repeat, repeat. Your goal at each event should be to come in as close to the OT as possible without going over. And remember, in case of a tie, they break it by whoever's closest to the OT, not by who's faster.

Rather than ban watches, I think they should narrow the window between OT and speed faults. If it's easier to get nailed for going too fast, people will be much more likely to slow down. It wouldn't hurt to have SF cost more than exceeding OT either--maybe .8 per second instead of .4.

Agreed. You should be learning how to pace yourself when you're still going slowly!

[Viva]

Asterix, if you've already gone prelim, then you probably have a lot more experience riding different paces and know the difference between a fast balanced round and just plain fast. That's really different from RedRazzle's post, who said they only go to 3 events or so a year "and have yet to get it right"--they have less experience judging pace, in which case I still think a minute under OT suggests being too fast for the level. There's a wide range of experience at every level, but aren't the rules designed for the average rider at a particular level? Speed faults don't kick in at BN until you're going 420 (it's a rate in the US, not a certain number of seconds, I just doublechecked the rule book). Seems way too fast for a typical BNR, IMHO.

My thought about narrowing speed fault windows and people's comments brings up an interesting question re: using events as competitions or as training experiences. If you want to place at novice, then you need to ride as close to OT as possible. If you're about to move up and want to practice a faster speed as drty.2 suggests, then maybe it's more of a training exercise: you go for the faster time, but take the consequences of the speed faults in the interest of training your horse. I've definitely done that, especially moving from training to prelim, when the speed difference really starts to have a big impact. (Yes, of course practice at home, but let's face it, it feels different on course.) I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this and how you've handled this on your own horses.

[JSwan]

in Canada they have introduced this rule no watch at preentry, entry and pre-training.


Thoughts and opinions on this


Good.

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

ARGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::m ad::mad:

That sucks... Because for the average horse the time is tooo slow! I am furious. GRRRRR. This is awful why would they do that if anything ban it for the upper lvls because there the ones pushing to make the time:no: but the lower lvls are trying to slow it down. It is absolutely ridiculous and I hope it doesnt last.:yes:

[JER]

Ok but how do you get to the start box on time without a watch?

I'd like to see the LLs go to an optimum time situation with a narrower penalty window on either side, more like in a hunter pace.

(The last time I used a watch I had the OT wrong. Silly me. But then I've spent a lot of time measuring and practicing speeds at home.)

[mkevent]

Interesting-just got this month's Equus and on page 72 is an item called a Whipwatch- a 28" whip with a digital watch in the handle.....I wonder if this is a coincidence?

[Beam Me Up]

I don't like this because it somehow implies that watches are cheating, instead of a learning tool.

I pretty much never pay attention to my watch (like, if it tells me I'm slow I'm likely aware of this already and not in a position to speed up), but after being assessed exactly 2 min of time on a course where by my watch I was right on the button, I see the value of having it as a record in case of any confusion (in my case they wrote down the start time of the previous rider who didn't finish the course and my end time--might have lost a qualifier if not for my watch).

So, for informational or scoring purposes, even if you aren't planning on making the time, it seems like it should be legal. Apparently some learn pace better with a watch, others without.

[flea]

I do not like the rule. As others have said...it is a good learning tool. And yes I practice pacing and am getting better at it. However having the watch on course adds to the education. It does not make me race or haul on horses face to slow down. At Meadowcreek I hit my time markers, even a tiny bit ahead...I would be OK...but as I came headed into the gully toward home I found my self behind. Ok...I did not race to the finish...just took the penalties and finished. However, it did help me to realize how the terrain affected my ride, of course I knew it did but not to that extent. I know now how much because I checked my watch going across the creek and by the time I went around the pond, into it and out, I was slow. Lesson learned. If I had not known my time heading there I would have had a good idea of course but this really taught me because I knew how much time it had taken. It is helpful in situations like that. I realize that for many novice/ training are steps to a goal. But for some of us closing in on 60 years old that is probably the highest level we will go. We ride for the enjoyment, and the watch helps us learn. I find I need it less the more experienced I get... not the other way around.

[SevenDogs]

I'm against this particular rule and hope it never passes here in the states.

I think BN, Novice and Training are great levels to work on pace--and measuring out a course with minute markers and then riding to those markers is great practice, before things get too fast and busy at Prelim and up.

Agreed. I personally have never worn a watch due to personal preference, but I should have the option. Watches are not the problem. First of all, the horrific accidents that are on everyone's minds are NOT happening at the lower levels. Second, banning watches at the lower levels will NOT improve safety at any level.

I really hope we don't see a bunch of rules enacted in the name of "safety" that really have no chance of improving safety, just to look like something is being done. :no:

[Kementari]

I agree pretty much 100% with Viva.

I wear a watch at the LLs (I have yet to ride the ULs- and probably never will :winkgrin:). I use said watch at home over a measured course to school pace, and then in competition as a double-check that the terrain/adrenaline/etc haven't changed my perception of my pace too much - and at the same to to LEARN how those things DO change my perception (something I cannot do at home, because, no matter how much I school, schooling will NEVER be the same as a competition).

I would hate to have to wait until Training, with more complicated questions beginning to appear at a faster pace, to be able to properly develop that sense of pace as it relates to competition - far better to learn it at BN and N, where everything is much simpler. :yes:

I think shortening the window, and/or adding more faults for going too fast vs going too slow, are both viable ideas, though.

[SevenDogs]

I think shortening the window, and/or adding more faults for going too fast vs going too slow, are both viable ideas, though.

I disagree strongly with shortening the window before getting time faults for excessive speed at the lower levels. When speed faults were introduced (yes, I am old enough to remember back when there was no such thing), the window was specifically set to allow a rider to reach the speed of the NEXT level up without incurring faults so that they may gain experience at that speed PRIOR to moving up to larger, more complicated obstacles.

Furthermore, I don't think it is fair to demand more precision from lower levels than you do from the upper levels. If you narrow the window, the lowest level riders is going to have to ride at a fairly precise pace to avoid penalties for going to slow OR too fast since there would only be a small window of unpenalized time.

Lastly, I believe (this could have changed) that shows have options at Beginner Novice to set their speed between a range (it used to be 300-350 meters per minute). Theoretically, you could go to two shows in close proximity to each other and have a fairly dramatic difference in the required speed. If the window for speed faults is narrowed, you could have the situation where a Beginner Novice rider has to significantly alter their ride from one show to the next -- definitely not ideal.

Once again, I think we really need to keep our eye on the ball here. The horrific accidents are NOT happening at the lower levels. Banning watches and narrowing acceptable speed windows at the lower levels is NOT the answer.

[JER]

Sweden has had a similar rule in place for over a year now. The rule is no watches below the CNC* level. They said they'd re-evaluate at the end of the 2008 season, I'm not sure what came of that.

In 2008, Sweden enacted a number of safety-related changes -- among the, qualifying with SJ rounds at 10cm above the eventing level -- following the death of a rider in July 2007 and the death of a horse due to an injury from a fence flag in September 2007. ((Two incidents sparked a number of changes. How many did/does it take for the USEF/USEA to wake up?)

You can read the Swedish report to the FEI here (http://www.fei.org/Disciplines/Eventing/Documents/SWE-Safety.pdf).

[flutie1]

Yay Canada!

[Kementari]

We already demand more precision at the lower levels: the upper levels don't have speed faults. If we don't think LL riders need the encouragement of stricter parameters in order to learn about pace (and maintain an approrpiate one), then we should be talking about eliminating SFs altogether...

(And no, I do NOT think that would be a good idea! ;))

[Hony]

I don't think this is an LLR vs. ULR issue. In Canada we already have a 30 second window between speed faults and "slow" faults for the lower levels. It seems to me that the goal of this rule was to help riders develop a feel for pace right from the get go. However, there are riders who do not maintain a consistent speed and end up trotting at the end of the course or doing other things to cause a "willful" delay in order to stay within the time.
By removing the watch riders will need to learn pace for real this time.
I'm not sure why some are making such a big deal of this. Learning pace is not complicated and once it's learned riders can focus solely on riding rather than their watch.

[Ajierene]

Good.


We agree on something?!? I never thought that would happen.

I have been thinking about this lately. There is more emphasis on technicality of courses and riding. Not only in the lay out of the course, but in measuring the course, using a watch, etc. People talk about how horrible it is that eventing has changed - but why is it ok to use watches, then? When Eventing started in the Olympics, I doubt that time was kept at all by riders on course. When did people start using watches and why? I understand wanting to come in on optimum time, but is it not more important to have a safe trip? Personally, I could never and will never wear a watch on course. First - that is a multitasking I am not sure I could handle and second - I want to pay attention to the terrain and obstacles, not speed. If the course is a nice course and correctly laid out by the course designer and I am going at the proper speed (practiced at home to know), then I will come in close to time.

Will taking the watch away from the speed demons help settle them a little? It is possible that they will just go faster to ensure they come home within time, but it is also possible that without knowledge of where they are on course will allow them to pay more attention to the terrain and obstacles opposed to where they are at the one minute mark. Others have stated that Canadian lower level riders were 'riding the watch, not the course', so in Canada it was probably a good idea.

Personally, I would like to remove the watch of all upper level riders and see how they do. Are they slower, faster, more careful, less careful? I think it would be interesting.

[asterix]

SevenDogs, I agree with you that it would be tough on people as the courses vary in speed within a level, but I don't find it a compelling argument that narrowing the speed fault window would be a problem for those practicing for a moveup. At that point, you are riding for the experience -- if that means you have to take the speed fault penalties, so be it. If you're trying to move up to Prelim, speed faults seem like a small price to pay to get the feeling of riding above 470 mpm.

[SevenDogs]

SevenDogs, I agree with you that it would be tough on people as the courses vary in speed within a level, but I don't find it a compelling argument that narrowing the speed fault window would be a problem for those practicing for a moveup. At that point, you are riding for the experience -- if that means you have to take the speed fault penalties, so be it. If you're trying to move up to Prelim, speed faults seem like a small price to pay to get the feeling of riding above 470 mpm.

I just do not believe that narrowing the speed windows at the lower levels or taking away watches is going to make a signficant difference in safety and I will repeat, I am a lower level competitor who has never worn a watch and can ride a course (at varying speeds) and come in very close to the optimum time. However, I believe I SHOULD be able to wear a watch, if I so desire. If we are going to CHANGE the sport and have it be more about being able to feel your pace rather than measure it, watches should be eliminated at all levels, starting at the top (I am not in favor of this). The same argument applies to time faults.

Once again, we need to keep our eye on the ball -- the big accidents are happening at the Highest Levels (or one might even argue Highest Level -- singular). It's just seems that everyone finds it easier to focus on changing the lower levels. Are occasional accidents happening at the lower level? ... yes. Do we all have a story about an out of control Beginner Novice rider? ...sure. But, by and large, this is NOT the problem facing this sport.

[LAZ]

I just do not believe that narrowing the speed windows at the lower levels or taking away watches is going to an signficant difference in safety and I will repeat, I am a lower level competitor who has never worn a watch and can ride a course (at varying speeds) and come in very close to the optimum time. However, I believe I SHOULD be able to wear a watch, if I so desire. If we are going to CHANGE the sport and have it be more about being able to feel your pace rather than measure it, watches should be eliminated at all levels, starting at the top (I am not in favor of this). The same argument applies to time faults.

Once again, we need to keep our eye on the ball -- the big accidents are happening at the Highest Levels (or one might even argue Highest Level -- singular). It's just seems that everyone finds it easier to focus on changing the lower levels. Are occasional accidents happening at the lower level? ... yes. Do we all have a story about an out of control Beginner Novice rider? ...sure. But, by and large, this is NOT the problem facing this sport.

I've already chimed in on this thread, but I'm agreeing again with SevenDogs because you said it much better than I did!

[easyklc]

This was discussed quite a bit at my area's annual meeting last month. I personally like the idea--for me, because I am a lower level smurf. I will probably never wear a watch. Ever. My trainer wouldn't allow it either.

I know if it does ever go into effect it is going to cause a lot of feathers to be ruffled.

Why is it a good idea for me? I am learning to rate my horse under instruction only. It is very important that I learn how to feel and know my times before I start worrying about constantly looking down at a damn watch. Seriously, we're talking lower levels here. Some of the pros at the meeting were laughing that they often don't even look at thier watches when they are taking a horse up the levels (up to prelim). They just know what speeds they are going. This is the key for me. I am not ready to compete if I can't tell how fast I'm going. But, my mare and I will likely come in over time, and if we have a good ride than I don't care. We're both learning.

I just don't get it when I see someone going BN with a watch, writing up and down thier arm in sharpie pen, horse over-tacked in a gag, etc. Then I watch them ride and they literally fly out of control over the course and get penalties. :confused:

[flea]

What if they have writing all up and down their arms, check their watches 2 or three times on course, ride at a steady pace, use an plain snaffle bit, and come in on time. Is that acceptable? That is more what I see. Why does one wearing a watch make people assume you are not working on learning to recognize your speed and are incapable of using judgement. I too am a lower level smurf and wear a watch every time, my trainer is certainly not against it. Because I wear a watch does not mean I am not learning to rate my horse, that is exactly what I am trying to improve. Wearing a watch does not necessarily equal to an incompetent kamakazi rider. I really am impressed with UL riders laughing because LL are using watches as a tool. No one I know "constantly worries about looking down at their damn watch". Its really not that hard to see if you feel you need to check it. It even beeps every minute but I am too deaf to hear it!:)

[enjoytheride]

But trotting on course isn't a willful delay by the rules. I think you can even ride in circles out in a field somewhere to regain control or slow down, I believe the rule applies to within a certain number of feet from the finish.

I also don't think that every BN or N rider that is trotting is willfully delaying their speed. Since green riders and horses exist at this level I imagine many of them are either A. getting pooped B. not comfortable with the speed the entire time or C. on green horses that need the trotting to jar their brains back in. You're talking about levels where I have seen people WALK into water or over ditches on their green horses. Not everyone is belting around like an idiot.

Personally? I'd probably not wear a watch because I'd run into a tree looking at it because I am just that graceful.

[SevenDogs]

What if they have writing all up and down their arms, check their watches 2 or three times on course, ride at a steady pace, use an plain snaffle bit, and come in on time. Is that acceptable? That is more what I see. Why does one wearing a watch make people assume you are not working on learning to recognize your speed and are incapable of using judgement. I too am a lower level smurf and wear a watch every time, my trainer is certainly not against it. Because I wear a watch does not mean I am not learning to rate my horse, that is exactly what I am trying to improve. Wearing a watch does not necessarily equal to an incompetent kamakazi rider. I really am impressed with UL riders laughing because LL are using watches as a tool. No one I know "constantly worries about looking down at their damn watch". Its really not that hard to see if you feel you need to check it. It even beeps every minute but I am too deaf to hear it!:)

:yes: :yes: :yes:

As a possible competitor of yours (lower level smurf, myself) who has never worn a watch, I fully support your right to do so. Watches don't create bad riders. A bad rider is a bad rider, regardless of whether or not they wear a watch. I would much rather see Dangerous Riding penalties be assessed to those who are exhibiting dangerous riding than ban watches.

[enjoytheride]

hmmm. I propose we ban riders who wear 5 point breastplates at BN and N because anyone who wants one at that level is only concerned about being trendy and not about safety. :D Or ban monoflap saddles with the same idea in mind.

[SevenDogs]

hmmm. I propose we ban riders who wear 5 point breastplates at BN and N because anyone who wants one at that level is only concerned about being trendy and not about safety. :D Or ban monoflap saddles with the same idea in mind.

Now, you are hitting below the belt. I'm not giving up my monoflap for anyone! I looooooooooooooooooove that thing!!! :lol:

[easyklc]

What if they have writing all up and down their arms, check their watches 2 or three times on course, ride at a steady pace, use an plain snaffle bit, and come in on time. Is that acceptable? That is more what I see. Why does one wearing a watch make people assume you are not working on learning to recognize your speed and are incapable of using judgement. I too am a lower level smurf and wear a watch every time, my trainer is certainly not against it. Because I wear a watch does not mean I am not learning to rate my horse, that is exactly what I am trying to improve. Wearing a watch does not necessarily equal to an incompetent kamakazi rider. I really am impressed with UL riders laughing because LL are using watches as a tool. No one I know "constantly worries about looking down at their damn watch". Its really not that hard to see if you feel you need to check it. It even beeps every minute but I am too deaf to hear it!:)

I certainly do not begrudge people I see wearing watches at the LL's. Really. I am purely speaking that for me a watch would only be another distraction (note all of the "I" statements I make in previous post). And one I see people using incorrectly. I want my learning to be solid before I compete. That's it. Sadly I did see more people going too fast last season on LL courses. :eek:

[Hony]

But trotting on course isn't a willful delay by the rules. I think you can even ride in circles out in a field somewhere to regain control or slow down, I believe the rule applies to within a certain number of feet from the finish.

I also don't think that every BN or N rider that is trotting is willfully delaying their speed. Since green riders and horses exist at this level I imagine many of them are either A. getting pooped B. not comfortable with the speed the entire time or C. on green horses that need the trotting to jar their brains back in. You're talking about levels where I have seen people WALK into water or over ditches on their green horses. Not everyone is belting around like an idiot.

Personally? I'd probably not wear a watch because I'd run into a tree looking at it because I am just that graceful.

The rules in Canada are a bit different that in the US. Willful delay can only usually be penalized between the last fence and the finish where riders are not allowed to circle, swerve, or do anything that appears to be a willful delay to stay within the time. It is meant to encourage riders to ride a consistent speed throughout the course rather than ride quickly to the end and then wait before crossing the finish line.

[JSwan]

Why is it that event riders can't do the xc portion without a watch - but foxhunters can?

You're supposed to PACE your horse. Knowledge of pace is really basic. I never wore a watch when I competed. Knowledge of pace was a skill developed and honed at home - and exercised in competition.

On Hunter Paces you'll regularly see riders coming in within a few seconds of optimum time. (The ones that are competing and not schooling young horses or just out to have fun) We'll take up to 23 fixed xc obstacles over varied terrain - about Novice or T level in size and complexity.....and do just fine. There isn't slowing down because you know you're going too fast, speeding up because you know you're going to slow - just nice forward and straight.

Even the paces on the flat have the same results - people easily traversing a long course at a good clip and come through the finish line within seconds of the optimum time.

Not saying these events are superior to eventing - not at all. What I'm saying is how has it become an impossible task to do without a watch in eventing - but not in a similar activity?

The "watch" thing only became fashionable in recent times. If you don't have any idea how fast you are going without a watch...... how can you be sure you are being fair to your horse?

The knowledge of pace if for the benefit of the HORSE, primarily. For the horse's well being and soundness.

[LAZ]

The "watch" thing only became fashionable in recent times. If you don't have any idea how fast you are going without a watch...... how can you be sure you are being fair to your horse?

The knowledge of pace if for the benefit of the HORSE, primarily. For the horse's well being and soundness.

This is not correct--I remember flagging and riding courses as far back as 1980, and putting half way markers up so people could check their time. I'm not sure when the 1/2 markers went out of vogue, but they were certainly the norm back then. I don't think people did minute markers back then--or at least I know I didn't, but half way was marked and checked.

[Foxtrot's]

Pony Club started taking the watches away from the kids because some of them would be hell bent on a licking and go tearing around at those levels when they should have been just at a strong canter. But I was one of the dissenting voices, preferring to empahasize training and schooling the pace. It somehow seemed a bit demeaning to tell people they could not wear a watch, all the while they are bound by the clock to be on time per the event schedule. I always wore a watch but frankly was a bit too busy on course to look at it much, preferring to know my horse's rythm. I do like the 'window' around the optimum time, made more sense to me for beginners.

[JSwan]

This is not correct--I remember flagging and riding courses as far back as 1980, and putting half way markers up so people could check their time. I'm not sure when the 1/2 markers went out of vogue, but they were certainly the norm back then. I don't think people did minute markers back then--or at least I know I didn't, but half way was marked and checked.


BN didn't exist in the 80's. At the lower levels I do not recall seeing people staring at watches. I know the rules have changed over the years (I remember when lead was added and penalty flags existed)... but those expensive watches at Novice? Not from what I remember - not at all. Visual aids to assist riders in figuring where they were on a course - yeah. But not people screaming around a 3ft course and then trotting across a finish line staring at their watches.....

[LAZ]

BN didn't exist in the 80's. At the lower levels I do not recall seeing people staring at watches. I know the rules have changed over the years (I remember when lead was added and penalty flags existed)... but those expensive watches at Novice? Not from what I remember - not at all. Visual aids to assist riders in figuring where they were on a course - yeah. But not people screaming around a 3ft course and then trotting across a finish line staring at their watches.....


No, back when I started Novice was Pretraining as well, and penalty zones helped define areas of issue. They were a pain to flag, but crystal clear about where faults occurred. However, my point is valid--watches were used back in the day as well as now, and though we didn't have speed faults I remember a few people standing at the finish line waiting to be on the optimum time prior to walking across. I thought that was dumb then and I think it's dumb now--riders should ride the pace. However, I think watches can be very useful with educating riders as to what various speeds feel like in various settings. My farm is very flat. I have one "hill" and it is swale versus a rise. 400 MPM feels completely different here than it does in southern Indiana (or KY, or anyplace) on the hills. There is little way for anyone here to practice that other than competition.



I don't know about you guys, but if I don't have a big-numbered watch I can't see the da** thing anymore....and the beeping doesn't matter because I can't hear it anymore...

[SevenDogs]

BN didn't exist in the 80's. At the lower levels I do not recall seeing people staring at watches. I know the rules have changed over the years (I remember when lead was added and penalty flags existed)... but those expensive watches at Novice? Not from what I remember - not at all. Visual aids to assist riders in figuring where they were on a course - yeah. But not people screaming around a 3ft course and then trotting across a finish line staring at their watches.....

Are you upset that they are wearing watches or that they are expensive? Seems like an odd comment. Would you be ok if lower level riders wore cheap watches?

I can tell you exactly when watches became more popular at the lower levels -- when speed faults came into the rules (penalties for going too fast). Prior to that, it was rare at the lower levels. I have competed for over 15 years and watches (along with distance wheels and, in the past, markers) has always been a part of the sport at the upper levels.

You can't have it all ways. If you are going to have penalties for speed, riders (of all levels) should have the right to wear a watch. I will mention AGAIN, I choose NOT to wear a watch, but I will defend the rights of others to do so.

I will also say, again, that I think we would be better served by having officials capable and willing to assess dangerous riding penalties than have speed faults for going too fast. It would be more effective at getting to the root of the problem.

Lastly, it seems very popular to say that watches should be eliminated so that riders learn to ride at pace and maintain it consistently throughout the course. However, if that is our goal, perhaps we need to start at the upper levels where we all know that the technicality of our courses has become such that our BEST riders need to slow down to jump the jumps and then speed WAY up to make the time. If our upper level courses were designed to encourage even pace and flow, then that would trickle down to the lower levels as well.

[asterix]

SevenDogs, I totally agree with you -- I was just quibbling with that one point about penalizing people trying to move up.

I don't think watches are "the problem" with our sport and among the people I know who are safe and competent lower level riders, there is a diversity of methods as to how they got that way. Some rode w/o a watch, some always with, does not seem to matter that much.

My first trainer was a big watch every time guy, so that's what I did. My horses are typically on the slow side anyway so it certainly didn't lead to me racing around or riding the clock. I am perfectly capable of ignoring it if I'm having either a good or a bad ride.

The ONLY time I confess I really did ride the clock was at the AECs -- time was fast and course wheeled tight, I was in the top ten after dressage, and my horse had never made time yet at that speed. I did NOT look until after the last complex, 2 or 3 simple fences from home, but, yeah, I kicked on at that point. :lol: If you had ever seen my horse go, you would realize this is a relative statement. He couldn't jump strung out and "too fast" if he tried, poor giant warmblood! Having the watch enabled me to be accurate about just how much we needed to do to finish clean.

[scubed]

I have to agree that for the lower levels, you can learn this in the arena. Wheel a "course" put down poles on the ground and try at 300, 325, 350, 375 mpm and feel the difference. It doesn't take too much more space to practice other gallops. You can do it as part of a cross-country school. I have to say, I am totally in favor of this rule.

[SevenDogs]

The ONLY time I confess I really did ride the clock was at the AECs -- time was fast and course wheeled tight, I was in the top ten after dressage, and my horse had never made time yet at that speed. I did NOT look until after the last complex, 2 or 3 simple fences from home, but, yeah, I kicked on at that point. :lol: If you had ever seen my horse go, you would realize this is a relative statement. He couldn't jump strung out and "too fast" if he tried, poor giant warmblood! Having the watch enabled me to be accurate about just how much we needed to do to finish clean.

And, Asterix... there is absolutely nothing wrong with riding the way that you did. It sounds like you rode completely safely but aware of your time (either through feel or the wearing of a watch). THAT IS THE SPORT! :)

[asterix]

It is -- and it sort of cancelled out the time my watch beeped for OT just at the moment that I was setting up for the second-to-last fence...which happened to be our "bugaboo" fence. I just gritted my teeth and kept riding the plan -- wouldn't have minded a little happy ignorance just at that moment.

Perhaps I missed this, but what was the specific impetus for the rule in Canada -- is there a documented issue (not just a perception) of lower level riders flinging themselves around because they are watch-obsessed?

[SevenDogs]

It is -- and it sort of cancelled out the time my watch beeped for OT just at the moment that I was setting up for the second-to-last fence...which happened to be our "bugaboo" fence. I just gritted my teeth and kept riding the plan -- wouldn't have minded a little happy ignorance just at that moment.

Perhaps I missed this, but what was the specific impetus for the rule in Canada -- is there a documented issue (not just a perception) of lower level riders flinging themselves around because they are watch-obsessed?

It was only in a lesson but kind of the same thing happened to me riding my somewhat neurotic TB. I never ride with my cell phone but had it in my pocket because the vet was on the way for another horse and everyone in the world decided to call me during that hour. It started ringing two strides out from a combination! Luckily, I just kept riding and he very kindly ignored it (although his ear on that side did go back!).

I don't know the background of the new Canadian rule but I would be willing to be that is that it is just a perception, and another case of it's easier to make rules at the lower levels so that we look like we are doing something instead of examining the real safety issues facing the sport.

[asterix]

I'm cracking up at that mental image (you know he was thinking, dang, girl, what is WITH that??)!

Well, I DO hope that SOMEONE is keeping track of what happens -- does this rule have an effect on speed faults? On % coming in under OT at the lower levels, etc.? Might at least get some useful data out of this...

[SevenDogs]

I'm cracking up at that mental image (you know he was thinking, dang, girl, what is WITH that??)!
:lol:

[JSwan]

If you read my post you'd have understood that I was referring ONLY to the lower levels, including BN.

I'm not sure I agree with the "trickle down" theory. The rider should be educated and prepared to progress up the levels - before moving up. If the rider is incapable of determining pace at even the lowest level - that bodes ill as the rider progresses.

I'll never object to an educated rider making an educated informed decision to use a piece of equipment. I'll always object to a rider relying upon gadgets to compensate for lack of preparation and ability.


I have competed for over 15 years and watches (along with distance wheels and, in the past, markers) has always been a part of the sport at the upper levels.

Lastly, it seems very popular to say that watches should be eliminated so that riders learn to ride at pace and maintain it consistently throughout the course. However, if that is our goal, perhaps we need to start at the upper levels where we all know that the technicality of our courses has become such that our BEST riders need to slow down to jump the jumps and then speed WAY up to make the time. If our upper level courses were designed to encourage even pace and flow, then that would trickle down to the lower levels as well.

[Blugal]

I'm not sure I agree with the "trickle down" theory. The rider should be educated and prepared to progress up the levels - before moving up. If the rider is incapable of determining pace at even the lowest level - that bodes ill as the rider progresses.

I'll never object to an educated rider making an educated informed decision to use a piece of equipment. I'll always object to a rider relying upon gadgets to compensate for lack of preparation and ability.

JSwan, I agree. But I think SevenDogs made a crucial point - I believe one of the main problems with the upper levels of today is the stop-and-go nature of the courses. At least at the lower levels you CAN ride a consistent pace around the course and have a smooth round within the time.

[LAZ]

Honestly--who here thinks that watches are going to make or break a rider? I fail to see who it is hurting that a rider wears a watch if they want to. I have ALWAYS seen people that go fast, get to the end and kill time (now they just kill it before the last fence). I have ALWAYS seen people who ride fluidly around a course. Watch or not watch for either, and in most cases if you have a conversation with these people they exude energy the same way they ride. So what would be next? Excluding screamers on course?

I've been involved with this sport for a long time, and I hate to see all the fishing in barren ponds for the answers. I don't believe the people that want to go on to advanced are typically not the same ones ripping around BN/Novice courses year after year without a clue as to balance/pace/organization. I'm a firm believer that you can't educate people that don't want to be educated, and you can't legislate stupidity.

Perhaps it's time to give fence judges a ballot list, and if they think someone is truly scary, then they can make a note of it. If the same name shows up on multiple fences that person could be watched at their next event and (privately and kindly) spoken to by an appropriate official if said rider needs some help.

I think that would make much more sense then a wide scale prohibition of a useful piece of equipment.







If you read my post you'd have understood that I was referring ONLY to the lower levels, including BN.

I'm not sure I agree with the "trickle down" theory. The rider should be educated and prepared to progress up the levels - before moving up. If the rider is incapable of determining pace at even the lowest level - that bodes ill as the rider progresses.

I'll never object to an educated rider making an educated informed decision to use a piece of equipment. I'll always object to a rider relying upon gadgets to compensate for lack of preparation and ability.

[Kementari]

I don't think anyone should be MADE to wear a watch. I am, in a way, the opposite of SevenDogs - I do wear a watch (though not a big eventing watch - does that make me more acceptable? :lol:), but I recognize that it is just a tool I prefer to employ, with no implied superiority to those who do not choose to do the same.

I look at my watch a couple of times on course - usually at what seems to be halfway (I don't wheel the course, so I don't have an exact halfway) and then a few fences from the finish. I've worked hard at home to learn my pace, and I'm usually right, but I'm just the type of person who feels more comfortable being able to double check. I've never trotted on course to take up time, and I've only once sped up substantially, and that was because the course was mismeasured - I did the math later and had, in fact, been riding a nice 350 (it was BN) pace. I took it up a notch (to 375 or so) at halfway, and then galloped the nice gallopy stretch near the end - I still had time faults (would have had to go a bit faster than 400 over the course to actually make time - almost no one did), and I don't think the decision was unsafe.

It's a competition, even at the lower levels. A competitor should be free to use (or not!) the relatively innocuous tools that may assist him/her in being competitive. If someone is using those tools badly, they should be punished or at least spoken to (depending on the severity of the incident). Just because a handful of riders use a watch incorrectly is not a reason to ban them for everyone. I've seen more people misuse spurs than misuse a watch - shall we ban spurs, too?

And for the record, I think I've probably witnessed just as many riders tearing around the course way too fast WITHOUT watches as I've seen WITH.

[NMK]

I think the study will be interesting. I am going to guess that it won't make any difference. I think people either take the time to actually learn the feel for pace, or they do not. Last year I did five trainings. The first one I was a little slow. The second one, right on the second (T3D). The third I did at 500 to move up, the last two, I was right on the second. If you took my watch away, it would have been exactly the same finish time. At every event I looked at the watch AFTER the finish line, and wondered how close I was. Three out of five times, with one season opener, and one move up, is no fluke. I learned the pace because I set up a course here at home, and learned the timing. To further the point, at one of those last T runs I had a stop, and still made the time exactly.

I think you either learn this, or you just keep "trying" at events to get close. Taking the watch away probably won't have an effect on folks doing their homework, IMHO. If people want to learn it on course, they should be able to do that. If this rule is intended for people to learn pace, then they should shorten the window and up the penalties.

Nancy

[Ja Da Dee]

So what happens if you forget to take your watch off? I'm always wearing a watch. When I event, I set it to beep at the half way and end if the opt time, but even if I wasn't setting the timer, I would STILL be wearing a watch. It's not like there are a lot of clocks out on the cross country warm up area. Taking my watch off would be harder to remember than dropping my whip in dressage before entering at A (when we had to do that). Wouldn't it be a huge bummer if you were E'd because you forgot to remove the watch you wore every waking moment?

[SevenDogs]

Honestly--who here thinks that watches are going to make or break a rider? I fail to see who it is hurting that a rider wears a watch if they want to. I have ALWAYS seen people that go fast, get to the end and kill time (now they just kill it before the last fence). I have ALWAYS seen people who ride fluidly around a course. Watch or not watch for either, and in most cases if you have a conversation with these people they exude energy the same way they ride. So what would be next? Excluding screamers on course?

I've been involved with this sport for a long time, and I hate to see all the fishing in barren ponds for the answers. I don't believe the people that want to go on to advanced are typically not the same ones ripping around BN/Novice courses year after year without a clue as to balance/pace/organization. I'm a firm believer that you can't educate people that don't want to be educated, and you can't legislate stupidity.

Perhaps it's time to give fence judges a ballot list, and if they think someone is truly scary, then they can make a note of it. If the same name shows up on multiple fences that person could be watched at their next event and (privately and kindly) spoken to by an appropriate official if said rider needs some help.

I think that would make much more sense then a wide scale prohibition of a useful piece of equipment.

So perfectly said in every regard! :yes: :yes: :yes:

If we have dangerous riders out there (and, by and large, this is NOT some huge problem at the lower levels), the TD and Ground Jury should be dealing with them. I remember many times where a questionable rider would hear his/her number announced over the loudspeaker with a request to "please see the TD". That discussion (or the embarrassment of being asked to see the TD over the loudspeaker) was often enough to take care of the situation.

Now we even have Dangerous Riding Penalties at the disposal of our officials to give them extra teeth. That goes to the heart of the problem.... taking away watches from everyone does not!