Thoughts on head bobbing - Happy Update!

[Ashemont]

My ponies are going better every day and were it not for one little problem I'd really be happy: Maya bobs her head :(

She doesn't do it all of the time but once she starts she keeps going. Most of the time she doesn't start bobbing until after we've worked for a bit - maybe 30-40 minutes - which made me think she was getting sweaty and itchy, but many times she'll start doing it right away.

I've had her teeth done. Checked all tack and had my trainer check it. Her curb chain isn't tight and I drive her in the top hole of a nice mullen mouth - which is wrapped. I've tried the noseband loose and snug: makes no difference.

I reverted to my western bag of tricks and put a war bonnet on her the other day (just made one up quickly out of baling twine). When she started to bob and hit the bonnet she quickly stopped. So should I just keep using this for training (it doesn't interfere with anything unless she throws her head up) or is there something else I should try?

[goeslikestink]

My ponies are going better every day and were it not for one little problem I'd really be happy: Maya bobs her head :(

She doesn't do it all of the time but once she starts she keeps going. Most of the time she doesn't start bobbing until after we've worked for a bit - maybe 30-40 minutes - which made me think she was getting sweaty and itchy, but many times she'll start doing it right away.

I've had her teeth done. Checked all tack and had my trainer check it. Her curb chain isn't tight and I drive her in the top hole of a nice mullen mouth - which is wrapped. I've tried the noseband loose and snug: makes no difference.

I reverted to my western bag of tricks and put a war bonnet on her the other day (just made one up quickly out of baling twine). When she started to bob and hit the bonnet she quickly stopped. So should I just keep using this for training (it doesn't interfere with anything unless she throws her head up) or is there something else I should try?

no-- ahorse or pony bobs its head when its lame have her on even solid ground and have another trot her up ie concrete as its flat then have them trot down and up in front of you to see which leg it is

[goodhors]

Just an idea, from buying a Virginia horse. Have her selenium checked. He was extremely low, got very sore in work. Not actually head bobbing, but not right.

With the test results, we got him the selenium shots for immediate raising his levels, with selenium and Vit E top dressed on his feed. He was retested within a month, showed a great improvement, but not up to normal levels yet. Took some time, but finally got him normal.

His action, stamina, smoothness in movement, all visibly improved with higher selenium levels in the body. We were not working him much at that time, but the few outings showed us he was getting better.

Selenium is supposed to be in short supply along that side of the nation, and working horses use up their stored supply. For us, horses who sweat regularly, especially mares, need more attention to their selenium and Vit E, than non-working horses or horses used lightly.

I know you get the Pair out and they work. Probably sweat every outing, often heavily. This means you have to give them additional, to keep the selenium and Vit E at normal levels.

Oddly enough Selenium helps make the muscles work easier, so fatigue in fit animal, doesn't set in as soon. We noticed that with our VA horse. He came to us, with regular work driving, being ridden, supposed to be quite fit in his work. He really tired quickly though, and we sure were not working him very hard. His Pair partner wasn't even sweaty. Not as fluid of movement in work, seemed sore muscled when work was done. Some of that we put down to shoeing changes, after upping his shoes 2 sizes to really fit correctly.

With a previous driving mare, we had lots of muscle soreness, bad heat cycles, terrible back soreness. We did the selenium test to rule things out. We were sure she had a lameness problem we could not pinpoint. Turned out with her EXTREMELY low selenium that her reproductive cycle was affected, along with the muscle soreness. She also got the shots, while we learned a WHOLE bunch about Selenium as a helping mineral in the body. We had a sharp learning curve on the selenium to get things readjusted in our feeding set up. The other mare, fed exactly the same way, had no selenium problem. But she was not sweating much in her ridden work. Not working hard, like the driving horse getting conditioned.

Getting the pony mares tested for selenium deficiency would be a good first step. At least you can rule it out as a problem. You can keep on checking for other reasons. We had one horse who just had a busy head, sometimes bobbed it, just never really still. No lameness, just irritating as possible. She was that kind of horse.

If Maya is very bobby, she could be lame, someplace. We went thru a lot of "nope, not that" ideas, before we stumbled on the selenium problem. Video tape might help pinpoint a location, since with tape you can slow her way down.

[Ashemont]

Thanks for the input and suggestions. Maya is NOT lame... no way, no how :D She and Maggie are so sound and fit that people always comment on it :yes: And I'm pretty good at spotting even subtle lameness, too. Maya's also not sweating much now that she's as fit as Maggie.

It's a consistent up-down of her head - nose in, nose out nervous kind of thing. As I said, she will sometimes do it as soon as we start up but usually doesn't do it until after she's worked a bit. She also does it after something has upset her and is more apt to bob after we've done some turning rather than just straight lines. There's nothing totally consistent about when she does it which is making it hard to figure out :confused:

Everyone was certain it was her teeth - and the dentist did remove a tiny sliver of a wolf tooth - but now that her teeth are fine she's still doing it. I have noticed Maya is more likely to bob her head when she gets a little nervous but I sure don't want it to become a habit.

I will certainly talk to my vet about selenium testing. It sure wouldn't hurt anything ;) I do know that the soil in our area is deficient in copper and zinc; since I've started supplementing just these two minerals there's been a noticeable improvement in all of the horses' hooves, but the ponies have always had good feet.

One thing that has me wondering is the fact that she stopped it completely when I put the war bonnet on her. Now a war bonnet isn't something that she really knows is there unless she throws her head up. After hitting it once or twice she held her head steady; I don't think this would happen if she were lame but could happen if she were just exhibiting a nervous affectation.

[hobbyhorse23]

Two thoughts here- the first, just to be responsible and cover all the physical bases, is to ask "Have you had a chiropractor look at her?" My Kody gets this compulsive neck bobbing/diving thing at some shows and it always means he's thrown his neck out. A quick trip to the chiro sets him right and no more bobbing! The fact that this mostly shows up after she's well into her work suggests it's a soreness issue.

The second thought, given her reaction to the war bonnet, is that this is a nervous thing. Horses get into nervous habits just like people do and once they learn they can release endorphins or just get that compulsive fix by tossing their heads or pawing or champing the bit or whatever it's hard to break. I think you're doing the right thing by using a self-corrective device that only works when she exhibits the behavior but otherwise doesn't interfer. Use it until she stops trying to bob her head, then take it off more and more often until she isn't wearing it at all. I don't usually turn to any sort of device as a solution, but that sort of nervous habit is one place where I will! It's better than any belated correction I could make from the driver's seat and will always be directly proportional to the offense.

Do make sure she isn't experiencing any pain in her neck or back though and that she isn't seeking to evade the bit or getting anxious because she doesn't understand what is being asked or isn't happy in her work. That's always primary!

Leia

[Ashemont]

Yes on the chiro. No adjustments needed :) I've tried to cover all of the 'physical' reasons why she'd do this. I thought it was teeth... but now I'm leaning more towards a nervous reaction that's fast becoming a habit.

I'm planning to use the war bonnet for a week or two and then re-evaluate - a plan my trainer agrees with. In the meantime I'm going to investigate the possibility of selenium deficiency.

This is just one of those frustrating things that would be so much easier for me to fix if I could RIDE her. Driving certainly has it's own set of challenges! :yes:

Oh and just as an afterthought.... although Maya bobbed her head all through her dressage test, she never did it once during cones or marathon :confused:

[cabz]

Pat

Sorry, I do not have an suggestion, but maybe she is like me and does not like driven dressage or she is keeping time in her head to the music for the kur!!!!!!!!!

Hope you find a solution.

Cynthia

[49'er]

I had a horse that would do this, usually at the walk in dressage. She would not stay on the bit and would lose the impulsion from her hind legs. One thing I tried was a German martingale on my driving reins which sort of worked while I was using them. The better solution was to drive her up into your hand, even if you got a little bit of jigging here and there. I feel it was a nervous affectation. From the little bit of pair driving I have done, this may not be easy to solve in the pair. Maybe try single to school for a bit? Good luck.

[Ashemont]

Cynthia I'd love it if you were right! As a music major I've always wanted to do Kur :D

49'r that's a good suggestion: I need to try driving her singly and see if she still does it. With several upcoming competitions I've been focusing on driving them as a pair but I guess I need to take a step back and find out what the root of the problem it. Then I need to resolve it before going on.

gtd you've got a good point - she might a bit sensitive. She reacts to the slightest touch and the lightest pressure on the reins so it's quite possible she's very sensitive and this is her response to feeling itchy. If that IS the case, any idea what the cure would be?

Of course once I solve this part of the puzzle I've got other issues to work on. For starters, once Maya's head is steady then I need to get Mggie to come into more of a frame and to carry her head higher. Then I need to get Maya to relax and Maggie to get more energized. It's a challenge, that's for sure. But what fun I'm having!!! :)

[Thomas_1]

If you want to take a video clip and email it to me personally I'd be happy to have a look and make some suggestions.

Either that or a very small video clip could be loaded via here for all to have a look at rather than guessing.

p.s. What's a war bonnet??? I always thought it was a description for a spot of colour on the top of the head of a horse that was predominantly white.

[KellyS]

It's hard to tell without seeing it. If all medical causes have been ruled out, it may be a balance issue. I've seen horses/ponies bob their heads because they don't have the strength to carry themselves and keep a connection through the back and into the bridle. This might make sense, especially since it often starts well into work. She may be getting tired and bobbing her head because she's doesn't have the strength to balance herself, especially when pulling the carriage.

If she's truly connected through the bridle, moving forward into the contact, I wouldn't think she would bob, but again, it may be a strength issue and it's much harder to keep a connection when you are driving 2 ponies. Driving single is probably a great way to address any issues like this. Have you thought about competing her as a single as well? Perhaps build up a relationship one-on-one (like you have with Maggie) before progressing to competing them as a pair?

[Thomas_1]

No, that's a Medicine Hat. (See below) We call that a war bonnet.

So what's a war bonnet in your world?

[Ashemont]

Here's a cable war bonnet - the ears of the horse are between the two top pieces so that there is a cable in front of the ears and over the poll and then the bottom rings are connected to a strap or rope that attaches to the girth between the front legs. This one has a noseband on it which is something I've not seen or used.
http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/1070/255135

A warbonnet is also a color marking on the head - sometimes used interchangeably with medicine hat as it's not clearly defined.

I learned about a war bonnet when I used to rope - definitely a case where you don't want a head popping up! Many roping horses were regularly ridden with one. It can be very effective if properly used ;)

Kelly, I honestly don't think it's a balance or connection issue. Maya is an exceptional mover and I'm sure Bill would've picked up on it if that was the cause of the bobbing. Maya doesn't have the confidence to be shown singly but I'll take the advice offered and drive both of the ponies alone in training. I've also already got my entries in for the next couple of competitions as a pair.

Thomas, I'll try to get some video in the next few weeks. I'll have to dig the camera out and give hubby a refresher course in using it :uhoh:

gtd - What could I try to see if it is an itchy/sweat related issue?

Haven't been able to drive for a few days as I've been busy with my 2 year old grand-daughter who shows great interest in horses (daughter is expecting our next little horseperson the end of August :))

[Ashemont]

Well I can now honestly say that I do not think this is a sweat/itchy issue. I drove Maya singly today. She was very nervous being alone and started bobbing her head right away. I kept picking away at her, working on dressage. She would relax and go well then something would set her off, she'd get really tense and nervous, and the head would bob.

I put the war bonnet on her, she bobbed a couple of times but then pretty much quit. She never completely relaxed, though, and she was much more sensitive to the whip touching her than she is when driven in the pair.

So I then got Maggie out and drove the pair. I dropped Maggie's reins down to the bottom (2nd) ring to give me a bit more curb action and voila! I immediately got the head set I wanted. As long as I stayed light with the reins she stayed. Maya was getting tired, sweaty and definitely itchy, but with the war bonnet on she didn't bob her head at all.

So now my question is: should I continue to try to drive her singly (Bill isn't very keen on me doing this) or should I just drive her in the pair with the war bonnet on? Or are there any other ideas/thoughts?

[Thomas_1]

I can't see what difference it would make driving her singly and from what you've said it didn't. She still did it.

I'm laying money on that it's bitting or rein use.

When you do your video would it be possible to film you putting her bridle on and showing me the bit placement?

Why didn't Bill want you to drive her singles?

When you drive her pairs is her rein under or over? Which pony generally goes with it's head higher?

[Ainsley]

Not sure why anyone elso hasn't suggested this yet (and maybe I am missing something here and that is why...?)

Why don't you try her on a feed-through calmer - like Herbs For Horses' product called Serenity. It is legal to show on, you feed it daily so the levels in her system remain consistent and it takes the edge off of a nervous horse without making them dopey or dull like Ace can do. There are no known side effects and the horses eat it readily with their grain in either the liquid or the powdered form.

I have had extremely good luck with this product in our thoroughbred hunters who are superstars when they can concentrate fully. It has made a world of difference in some horses...like they can just relax and take a deep, cleansing breath :) . Most of them are able to come off the Serenity within a couple of months and they are well balanced animals who are now comfortable in their heads and can work happily and be relaxed.

Good luck to you!

Jennifer

[ironbessflint]

I'm voting bitting/rein use as well. Mostly, too much focus on "headset" and not enough focus on forward and using the hind end. Running cones or marathon, you've got her working, moving out, and you're not focused on her front end. She's not fussy in the bridle. Without seeing you drive her while working on dressage, I'd say you change your focus and goals, you drive differently. You worry about her headset, frame, whatever. And you slow her down since you're not running marathon. I'm thinking you're slowing her down, but nowhere near COLLECTING her. The "headset" is product of what the hind end does. When she starts tossing her head, trying sending her FORWARD.

Likewise, I'm sure without her partner for support, she's tense while alone. Focus on relaxation, rhythm....and send her FORWARD. Ignore her head completely.

I'd also remove the war bonnet, put the reins back on whatever slot they were originally, and fix this training hole that has crept up, rather than try to fix the symptom. But that's me ;)

(Ainsley....If she's calm most of the time, but just gets worked up after being asked for a certain thing, I don't see how a feed through supplement is the answer??? It doesn't seem as if the OPs horse is hot in general, or while doing other things.)

[Ashemont]

Appreciate the post but it's not that my ponies are not forward and I sure focus more on engagement than most coming from an FEI dressage background and having successfully bred performance warmbloods for over 20 years. And I sure do want to fix whatever the problem is not just try to cover the symptom ;) This is why the bobbing is so puzzling. If I had been trying to just get a headset without getting the ponies through and working over the topline it would make sense; but since I'm all too aware of working from behind....

Today I actually had no head bobbing to speak of. I had a martingale that Bill gave me to try on Maya. Yeah, no head bobbing but instead she started lunging and leaping! :uhoh: It must've been something in the air because Maggie was wired and pulling :( I half-halted until my hands ached - could not get a walk from Maya at all.

Maya is a bit hotter than Maggie, who is very laid back most of the time. Saw Chester Weber today and he said he's had luck with a Pennfield feed that's specifically for nervous horses and ponies. Hubby bought a bag to give it a try ;)

Anyway I practiced transitions, movements, anything I could think of to redirect the energy to no avail. Finally, after an hour plus with lots of attempts to just let them walk and relax, I tried doing a few tests. I guess they got the message that I wasn't about to quit until they did SOMETHING right and I could stop on a good note because they finally did a halfway decent Prelim 4 test :)

My neighbor said the horses she rode today behaved oddly and then tonight she found my favorite big black cat dead between our driveways; he was half eaten. My goats had even acted strangely this afternoon and wanted to be in the barn tonight. I'm crossing my fingers all of the animals sensed something amiss and that tomorrow will be better.

Thomas - You had advised me previously to put the greener pony's rein on the bottom, which is how I have them. However, the greener pony (Maya) has the higher head carriage. So should I switch the rein placement?

Bill didn't want me to drive Maya singly because he was concerned for safety. She had been abused before I got her and she gets very nervous by herself. She adores Maggie and really makes an effort to stay with her all of the time. Bill wants me to drive her with her security blanket (Maggie) until she gains enough experience to be secure on her own. There are so many things she hasn't been exposed to and she's terrified - but next to Maggie she's fine. Hope I've explained this OK.


I really do appreciate all of the input. It sure helps to gain different perspectives on the problem.

[Thomas_1]

Appreciate the post but it's not that my ponies are not forward and I sure focus more on engagement than most coming from an FEI dressage background and having successfully bred performance warmbloods for over 20 years. I really do think that Ironbessflint's posting is very very appropriate and is in total synergy with what I'm thinking. Warning: I'm going to be very frank here and post extensively only because I know you are eager to learn and get another perspective to sort this out. ;)

I still don't know what this "war bonnet" is but I'm thinking if it's to stop the evasion by putting pressure on the poll then it's only going to lead ultimately to another problem. Likewise with the martingale. I'm really NOT a fan of using one thing to correct a problem caused by something else though. The horse is obviously expressing an opinion that there's something she doesn't like about what is being done. Get rid of the gadgets that prevent her from expressing her opinion!

Find out what it is she doesn't like and stop or fix it .

And I sure do want to fix whatever the problem is not just try to cover the symptom ;) This is why the bobbing is so puzzling. If I had been trying to just get a headset without getting the ponies through and working over the topline it would make sense; but since I'm all too aware of working from behind.... I'm still laying money on though that it's the bitting and rein handling part of the equation.

I know I've not seen the problem but the whole description is just adding up to that being the root cause. The war bonnet and martingale response likewise just leads me to futher be certain it's that.

It must've been something in the air because Maggie was wired and pulling :( I half-halted until my hands ached - could not get a walk from Maya at all. mmmmmm......... again I wasn't there so didn't see it but sounds wrong to me. Wrong in lots of ways. Also for sure it's not confirming a focus on forward and relaxation.

Maya is a bit hotter than Maggie, who is very laid back most of the time. Saw Chester Weber today and he said he's had luck with a Pennfield feed that's specifically for nervous horses and ponies. Hubby bought a bag to give it a try ;) Waste of money!!!!! You can't feed a horse so it's not nervous!! I don't care if the Lord Almighty tried to tell you that, I'd disagree!

If the horse is nervous then it needs further training and developing so it trusts you more and gains confidence in your ability never to put it to do anything outside its comfort zone or that will harm or hurt it.

I'm also presuming that this "majikal feed" is going to be something like Cool-n-lite. Which I know is marketed as being non heating and to help to ensure calm horses etc etc but its cooked barley and 12% protein!!

Now don't get me wrong because I feed my horses barley for their winter feed when they need supplementing. Its a good hard feed with slow energy release and as such one I also totally endorse as being not directly contributing to making a horse hyper. BUT..... If I had one that I thought was hot and flighty frighty like a kid on enumbers because of feed then I'd knock the feed down or off or up the exercise and work.

I don't know her body condition or what work you're doing BUT if you think she's hot because of feed....... and the problem you're describing no way is that..... then just significantly reduce the protein and high glycaemic index carbs. It may well be that you've been advised to feed this particular stuff because it's less than what you're currently feeding and in that case, it sounds sensible advice. IF though the advice was "Buy and feed this, it will make a nervous horse not nervous. Then..... twaddle and a waste of money!

Note though that what you're experiencing is a specific problem and it's not going to be sorted by feeding her. So don't anyone go thinking you can feeding a nervous horse to make it not nervous. I truly can't begin to understand folks who think you can feed a horse till it behaves. (that's my horse feed/training rant over for today! :winkgrin: Well until I go see a pony this afternoon!)

My neighbor said the horses she rode today behaved oddly and then tonight she found my favorite big black cat dead between our driveways; he was half eaten. Sorry to hear that.

Thomas - You had advised me previously to put the greener pony's rein on the bottom, which is how I have them. However, the greener pony (Maya) has the higher head carriage. So should I switch the rein placement? Did I???!!!! :eek: NOT ME! No way .... NEVER!!!!!! NEVER IN A MONTH OF SUNDAYS!

Find that and I'll eat my hat!!!

It's head carriage and way of going that determines rein placement. Not whether a horse is green or not. You ensure the horse with the higher head carriage etc isn't interfering with the other horse and putting on commands you don't want.

I would never have said anything else! I'd lay money on that! Unless I must have been drunk and in a state of oblivion!!!! Or it wasn't me!!!

Seriously.... I'm wondering if you've misunderstood me somewhere/somehow?

Bill didn't want me to drive Maya singly because he was concerned for safety. She had been abused before I got her and she gets very nervous by herself. She adores Maggie and really makes an effort to stay with her all of the time. Bill wants me to drive her with her security blanket (Maggie) until she gains enough experience to be secure on her own. There are so many things she hasn't been exposed to and she's terrified - but next to Maggie she's fine. Hope I've explained this OK. mmmmmmm so you're not sorting or really tackling the root cause of the problem then.

Again, don't get me wrong, I can understand the advice and the logic. It is indeed safer in many ways to drive a pair. You'd be very unlucky to have both behaving like twits at the same instant! It's also giving the pony the chance to get out and experience stuff and start to be less nervous.... all good stuff.

But I'm thinking you really do need a different perspective on this: You are a novice pairs driver aren't you? I'm also thinking more and more that there's some steps missed here with this pony's training and you're pushing her on even though she's telling you something isn't right.

Whilst your trainer's advice in context is good advice, you're not just letting her develop confidence .... which is the purpose and intent of the approach of putting her straight to a pair.

But you're not doing that.... You're trying to get her in a right "head set" (HATE those words by the way ;) ) You're picking a fight with her with constant half halts to force her to walk. (What is that about!?) You're using gadgets to try to stop her moving her head. You're doing prelim tests with her. None of that is about developing trust and confidence and being attentive to her needs neither is it focusing merely on sending her forward and developing confidence in a pair and in readiness for her to go as a single.

I really do appreciate all of the input. It sure helps to gain different perspectives on the problem. Have a long chat with your trainer and see what is in his mind and really take heed because whilst I can appreciate his point of view as you're relaying it I seriously wonder if you're just pushing to sort out a problem so you can move the pony on.

[Thomas_1]

You got me perplexed re pairs rein advice and so I've been doing a search and can find this advice re pairs reins and from last year:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=138357&highlight=rein

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2960443&highlight=rein

[Cartier]

I always enjoy this forum… seems it is one of the few places where wisdom and experience are valued. There is always great input from knowledgeable posters who take their time to make a contribution. Thomas in particular is pure gold. Thomas, if you gave advice on other topics that was as well-reasoned and spot-on as the advice you give here. we’d all be better for it. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, you make the world a better place simply by contributing. Thank you. -Elaine

[Ashemont]

Sorry Thomas, the advice was offered offline via email. At first I was a bit resistant but when I tried putting Maggie (who was the green pony) on the bottom and Mollie (the old pro) on the top it worked much better. If you recall I even humbly apologized for doubting you and you graciously replied that you were just glad it had helped ;)

But I'll try switching them again and see what happens. Certainly can't hurt anything at this point :)

Ooops... just saw your other reply. OK. Lots to digest there. Again, I'm not really into the head set thing other than from the point that it is indicative of a problem. And Maggie is the one who needs to carry her head better - which she does when she is not being lazy. Maya has a super head carriage - very correct - UNTIL she starts this bobbing.

I drive Maya in a pair to get her experience and still keep her in a comfort zone. I drive daily and usually for an hour or more. We go all over the countryside, only practicing dressage once or twice a week. I'm trying to give her the same experience I gave Maggie. However the type of abuse Maggie had before I got her (basically neglect) is not the same as the way Maya was abused - which led to her being frightened,nervous, and not trusting. She is getting better. I couldn't catch her when I got her; now that's no longer an issue. I couldn't touch a leg without her squealing and yanking it back - or even touch HER without her tensing, raising her head and looking wild-eyed. But I could see the kind, sweet pony inside and it is slowly emerging.

Yes I'm competing at Prelim - mainly because Training usually isn't offered. I'm not about winning, though. I do it for fun and for the experience for my ponies. Both of them obviously enjoy it so I will continue because I enjoy it too.,

I'm with you on the feed - to a certain extent. I know if there are things missing - like magnesium - then feed CAN help calm a horse. When Chester said it's really helped with Jamaica (and yes you had the brand right) I figured it was worth a try. I was quite surprised to see it is mainly barley. I LOVE feeding barley and it was my main feed on the ranch out in CA - rolled, crimped barley. However I haven't been able to find any decent barley here on the east coast. Since I'm not feeding my horses/ponies a hot feed (they get a plain Jane pellet from Nutrena that is supposed to prevent colic) along with soaked beet pulp and free choice good quality coastal Bermuda hay, I don't expect to see much difference because of the feed. But again, it's worth a shot. I've had stranger things happen. We had one stallion who was particularly reactive to one brand of feed even though no difference was apparent between it and his regular feed. One feeding and he was wired; remove it and he was fine :confused:

So I'll remove the gadgets and just drive on. And I'll keep letting Bill drive them in my weekly lesson - and whenever else I can get him to ;)

[Thomas_1]

Sorry Thomas, the advice was offered offline via email. At first I was a bit resistant but when I tried putting Maggie (who was the green pony) on the bottom and Mollie (the old pro) on the top it worked much better. If you recall I even humbly apologized for doubting you and you graciously replied that you were just glad it had helped ;)

But I'll try switching them again and see what happens. Certainly can't hurt anything at this point :) You must have told me something specifically about the horses' way of going that made me suggest that.

As my wife (lawyer!) often and repeatedly says ....... "I can only advise on the basis of what I'm told and know" :winkgrin:

May be that you had something specific then that no longer applies about her way of going now.

I'm waiting for the photos and video on this one though before I say anything specific now though.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas in particular is pure gold. Thomas, if you gave advice on other topics that was as well-reasoned and spot-on as the advice you give here. we’d all be better for it. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, you make the world a better place simply by contributing. Thank you. -Elaine I do post elsewhere.

Didn't you see I got told I talk crap and haven't got a clue recently on both the Eventing and Sportshorse forums ;)

[Ashemont]

:D :D :D :D The girls redeemed themselves! I hesitated to drive today because although sunny it is chilly and extremely windy. Not a good recipe for a pony like Maya. But I was so down after yesterday that I had to get out and drive again (I was actually thinking of asking hubby if I could use Phoenix and just do single horse).

I had no problem at all catching Maya and Maggie came trotting right up. But then we had a static issue when the blankets were pulled (what do you do about that? I use Static Guard.) Both girls were a little nervous as I harnessed. I think they kept expecting another shock :(

After I put them to, with Maya's rein on top and no gimmicks or gadgets, they had to stand for a bit while I reset the Garmin. Everything blowing about had Maya tense but she stood like a good girl. We started out at a nice quiet walk just as a gate banged shut! Ugh! I hate the wind!!! We did a very nice relaxed walk and I was pleased to do 1k in 10 min 15 sec.

We turned into the woods and promptly met a rider - something we rarely see. It was a friend and everyone stood quietly while we had a chat. Then we proceeded at a walk. Both girls were blowing and relaxed so I asked for a slow trot, paying lots of attention to ME - hands up, light, sitting straight,etc. It was LOVELY! In spite of the occasional scoot by Maya when some leaves whirled by or a tree branch creaked, we held to about 10kph and under. A real feat since if left on their own they'll hit 14kph and up.

Interestingly Maya finally bobbed her head and seemed surprised when there was no resistance on the rein. She tried it again and then, satisfied, stopped the bobbing. She did that once or twice more farther down the trail and then she was steady. After about 40 minutes we headed for home at a walk and both kids got LOTS of cookies :) Guess we'll just have to take it a day at a time.

[Cartier]

I do post elsewhere.

Didn't you see I got told I talk crap and haven't got a clue recently on both the Eventing and Sportshorse forums ;)
Nah.. must have missed that. No question but that those folks are fountains of good judgment and sage advice. Is it too late to withdraw the compliments? :lol:

Seriously, given who posts on those forums I seldom pay any attention. I am impressed by how much of your time and knowledge you are willing to share. You are not posting to advance yourself or something you are selling, rather you are simply sharing good advice. That can be a thankless endeavor… sometimes like hitting your head against a brick wall. :yes: Just wanted to mention that I enjoy your posts and appreciate your efforts.

[KellyS]

In regard to the Eventing Forum, Thomas may have met his match--Denny Emerson. :winkgrin:

[shawneeAcres]

Pat,

Obviosuly I am NOT one to make any suggestions on driving hroses since I have JUST started this myself! But in terms of the sweaty/itchy thing, I have a new 17.2 hand gelding that I ride. He gets very itchy and usually likes to stop and rub his head/mouth on his foreleg after riding a bit. Yesterday I had him at a show and he started flipping his nose. Worried me a little cause it was a lot like headshaking. But once I let him rub his nose, he was over it. I think his nose gets itchy and he jsut has to rub it or he gets to bobbing that head up and down.

[Thomas_1]

In regard to the Eventing Forum, Thomas may have met his match--Denny Emerson. :winkgrin: I may well have ;) but that wasn't who I was thinking of...... It were (MUCH) lesser mortals :winkgrin:

[Thomas_1]

Pat,

Glad to hear it worked out much better so I'm now thinking that this confirms my initial thoughts re bit and rein handling.

I'd suggest you need to take a good look at her bridle and bit fit first and once you're 200% satisfied that is spot on, rein handling practice.

You've probably told us all this before but...

When were her teeth last done? How old is she? What bit are you using? How do you check bit placement? Bridle fit?

[goeslikestink]

I do post elsewhere.

Didn't you see I got told I talk crap and haven't got a clue recently on both the Eventing and Sportshorse forums ;)

well they dont know what they missing then
as always your spot on maybe they jeaslous cuase they dont know what you know and cant answer for the things that you do and they dont
haha

[Cartier]

In regard to the Eventing Forum, Thomas may have met his match--Denny Emerson. :winkgrin:
As I said… I didn’t read the comments … don’t intend to. Giving advice is usually a thankless job… the minute you stand up and say X,Y or Z, someone is going to come along and throw a rock at you. :lol:

About Denny, though we are “almost” neighbors, our only direct contact with him is that back in 2007 he allowed us to use his farm (and his jump chute) here in Southern Pines to shoot video footage of our young stallion Commander. It was a last minute thing that the buyer in England wanted to see. We did not know Denny, we called him out of the blue (he was at his farm up in New England) he graciously said “yes.” We are indepted to him... lovely man.

[KellyS]

I may well have ;) but that wasn't who I was thinking of...... It were (MUCH) lesser mortals :winkgrin:

:lol: Ah, the fun of posting on the Internet...makes life exciting though, doesn't it? :D

Pat, glad to hear your drive yesterday went so well. Good luck with everything.

[Ashemont]

When were her teeth last done? How old is she? What bit are you using? How do you check bit placement? Bridle fit?

Her teeth were done last almost 2 weeks ago. Horse dentist removed a small sliver of a wolf tooth.

Close as we know she's 5-6.

A mullen mouth with the bit wrapped. She wasn't chewing or mouthing the bit until Bill wrapped it, but now does so. Reins are on the top hole.

Bill has checked bit placement and bridle fit. I've not changed it but have made sure there are no spots that would irritate her. I did make sure the bit was not where it would touch any teeth, if that helps.

Fingers crossed that maybe this was just a tooth problem and it just took a bit for things to heal and get comfortable :yes:

As for Denny, he's great. I've been acquainted with him for a number of years and have had horses in clinics with him. I've always been impressed with how kind he is to the horses - rough on the riders sometimes but always kind to the horses.

[Thomas_1]

So how long did she have off after the dental work?

[Ashemont]

A day or two. She certainly didn't object to the bit or going back to work. And the bit is well wrapped.

Had to give the kids yesterday off as the cold wind was just too much for me so today they were a bit fresh. It was to be a dressage day however Maya was so up that I took a few laps around our woods first. Came back to the field and they settled right in and gave me two decent tests. I needed to get after Maggie more than Maya - although they did want to race a bit when asked for a lengthened trot. I quit while I was ahead. For the record there were only one or two head bobs from Maya and she did those in the beginning. Fingers crossed this is behind us ;)

[elegantbay]

I had a mare that did that, after 45 minutes of work, her head would start tossing. Turned out to be ulcers. I turned her out and bred her, thus my two babies! Then I finally figured it out. Gastroguard or ulcer guard for 30 days if you cannot turn her out for at least 30 days. After about 40 minutes their upper gut becomes empty, and the digestive acid starts to burn the stomach, causing discomfort. Took her off of all sugars, sweet feeds, sweet treats also. Just another thought for you. Some other signs were her trying to chew the aisle wall when I put her in cross ties, tucked up look to her also some days. Just a general change in attitude about her work.

Debbie

[Ashemont]

Now that's an interesting thought. I actually had a lovely Appaloosa stallion - a son of Hi Stakes - die from a ruptured ulcer many, many years ago when I was in CA. There wasn't much known about ulcers then. Maya can get very nervous at times due to her background of abuse so that is definitely something to discuss with my vet. Thanks!

[Dazednconfused]

Not sure why anyone elso hasn't suggested this yet (and maybe I am missing something here and that is why...?)

Why don't you try her on a feed-through calmer - like Herbs For Horses' product called Serenity. It is legal to show on, you feed it daily so the levels in her system remain consistent and it takes the edge off of a nervous horse without making them dopey or dull like Ace can do. There are no known side effects and the horses eat it readily with their grain in either the liquid or the powdered form.

I have had extremely good luck with this product in our thoroughbred hunters who are superstars when they can concentrate fully. It has made a world of difference in some horses...like they can just relax and take a deep, cleansing breath :) . Most of them are able to come off the Serenity within a couple of months and they are well balanced animals who are now comfortable in their heads and can work happily and be relaxed.

Good luck to you!

Jennifer

It is NOT legal to show on. Anything that is mood altering, psychotropic, anything - is not legal.

[Ashemont]

Drove over to a friend's today to practice dressage and cones. He hasn't seen the girls since our last competition and he was amazed at how much better they went. Maya wasn't totally steady in the bridle, but she wasn't constantly bobbing her head, either. We actually did a couple of decent tests and some very good cones work :)

I do think it was probably a combination of things: teeth, feed, work and rein placement. It will be interesting to see how this weekend's mini-CDE goes :yes:

In general Maya is really beginning to settle down. She was fine when two fire trucks passed us on the road today - with sirens and lights going. She was fine with me roaching her mane with the large clippers this afternoon. She was fine with me using the shedding blade all over her (not even one flinch or squeal!). Maya is now coming up to be caught - I don't even have to leave a catch halter on her anymore. I guess persistence pays off ;) I've even been working on touching her with the whip and while she reacts to it she does NOT lunge like she had been. Hopefully Maya is learning to trust me :D Of course I think it also helps that I finally found a treat that she absolutely loves - and I always make sure to have one or two in my pocket :lol:

Thank you all for working through this with me. It really helps to have a good sounding board and to get different perspectives when any difficulty arises.

[Thomas_1]

Sounds like it's coming right and I'm thinking it was her teeth and bitting. Next time you have dental work done, let her have a little longer off.

[Rayman421]

I have a pony who bobs his head too. I found that after a season of driving he did it less and less. I believe it has to do with fitness- as previously suggested. As he became more able to drive up into the bridle and use his back end, he quit diving down to the bit.

I especially contribute it to "fitness level" as when i started him again this year, he started it again - but it went away more quickly this year. I think it's b/c he's older and can balance more and KNOWS how now, to balance, not to mention being a year older and stronger.

[Ashemont]

I'm now attributing a lot of it to nerves. We did our second CDE this past weekend and Maya warmed up with nary a head bob. However as soon as we entered the dressage arena she gave the occasional bob. Nonetheless the girls ut in a good test and I was THRILLED to have the comment "nice bend" :D instead of the ever present "left pony counterbent" for every other comment as I did with Mollie.

My navigator had not seen the ponies since the last competition a month ago and she was amazed at the difference - particularly in Maya. It really was like driving a different pony - and a total blast! We went couble-clean in cones and posted some pretty fast times on hazards even taking a few aggressive routes.

To sum up: we've done teeth, wrapped bit, put on lots of miles, switched pair rein (Maya now on top; Maggie on the bottom) and changed feed. Maya has calmed down so much that I even was able to body clip her!!! No twitch to drugs, either. This is nothing short of miraculous as even just a few months ago I couldn't brush her without her pulling away and squealing!

I've got a pair!!!! YIPPEE!!!! We just might be competitive at the Southern Pines CDE next month ;)