Why are standing martingales illegal in jumpers

[enjoytheride]

Why specifically? I know it is over a certain prize amount so I want to know why.

[beeblebrox]

Right from the USEF rule Book

JP111 Tack and Attire.
1. Martingales.
a. Classes offering less than $1000—No martingale restrictions.
b. Classes offering $1000 to $4999—Only standing or running martingales used in the
conventional manner are permitted.
c. Classes offering $5000 or more (and all classes restricted to young horses)—Only

[2ndyrgal]

It has to do with the horse being completely able to use his head and neck for balance if he gets in a problem spot. You can't use them at all in eventing, even at the lowest level. In jumping, especially over the bigger fences, you want the horse to be able to use his head and neck to the fullest extent over the fence, and a standing martingale, no matter how loose, would ultimately restrict the horse.

[Tha Ridge]

I've always found it curious that it's restricted by prize money rather than fence height. Just seems odd that a Children's Jumper that regularly competes in a standing martingale suddenly cannot if they enter into a $5,000 classic or something similar, even though the fence height is the same.

[2ndyrgal]

I hadn't noticed it was the prize money, but might be to keep the hunter riders from cross entering just for the dosh.

[enjoytheride]

That is what I don't get, why it is restricted by prize money specifically. Hunters jump up to 4 feet in a standing so it isn't a height thing.

I also think the rule is fairly recent, so what suddenly made it illegal and why is it restricted by prize?

I understand that eventers believe a standing restricts the horse's head in a sticky situation, and many western people will not trail ride through streams and rivers with a tie down because they believe a horse will drown with one on if he falls.

[WorthTheWait95]

I hadn't noticed it was the prize money, but might be to keep the hunter riders from cross entering just for the dosh.

As long as they pay their entry fee and comply with any cross entering restrictions I doubt anyone would care. I don't know many top level hunters that would be 'risked' in the jumper ring, however. It's an entirely different way of going/thinking.

The prize money restriction never made sense to me either. In a well groomed arena there really aren't tons of instances in which a standing martingale (properly adjusted) would interfere with a horse in the first place. Maybe in the very top levels with a shady distance to a triple or something.

[Janet]

It is also an FEI rule.

Not sure why it is based on prize money. Maybe they figure the higher the prize money tehemore "FEI-like" it should be.

[twobays]

My guess is that it has to do with wanting horses to be able to use their neck fully if things got ugly.

The whole martingale rules thing is really bizarre to me. Like, why can't you hack in a martingale? Its not like its any more hazardous than jumping in one, and its not like you're gonna win your class if you're strapping your horse's face to his chest either. I'd love an explanation because I've always wondered...

[Jaegermonster]

My guess is that it has to do with wanting horses to be able to use their neck fully if things got ugly.

The whole martingale rules thing is really bizarre to me. Like, why can't you hack in a martingale? Its not like its any more hazardous than jumping in one, and its not like you're gonna win your class if you're strapping your horse's face to his chest either. I'd love an explanation because I've always wondered...


because it can possibly be used to camoflauge a lameness by a rider who is skilled enough to know how to do it, and because it artificially influences the way a horse carries his head

[beeblebrox]

"Jaegermonster

because it can possibly be used to camoflauge a lameness by a rider who is skilled enough to know how to do it, and because it artificially influences the way a horse carries his head"

UM well if you watch real careful and you do not have to look that hard there are a lot of lame jumpers, hell I watched a BNT training warm up a high A/o for days and I never saw that horse trot except one time in a grooms hand running back to barn and it was lame. They enter the ring at the walk and canter.. SO I do not think the no standing martingales over a certain $$$ level is about HIDING lameness, they hide it just fine without them.

[fourmares]

Beeblebrox - Jeagermonster was explaining why they aren't allowed in flat classes... not jumper classes over a certain amount.

Enjoytheride... it's not a recent rule at all. Definately was a rule in the early eighties, and I'm pretty sure before that.

As for the rule. It's a safety thing.

[beeblebrox]

"Fourmares

Beeblebrox - Jeagermonster was explaining why they aren't allowed in flat classes... not jumper classes over a certain amount."

Cheese and Rice... Bad reading skills.. My bad..

[enjoytheride]

So if it's a safety thing why is it specifically limited to prize money and not to height and why can hunters use it over the same height but jumpers can't? In eventing it is banned at all levels.

You can use one if you compete in children's jumpers but if you enter the same horse in a different class in the SAME height over the same fences in the same ring you can't use it if that class has prize money.

Some dressage people I know claim it to be a bit evil because it is used to tie the head down and it limits bascule, my assumption would be that if it ties the head down it is too short and no hunter would use it if it limited bascule because hunters are all about the bascule.

[asanders]

"Jaegermonster

because it can possibly be used to camoflauge a lameness by a rider who is skilled enough to know how to do it, and because it artificially influences the way a horse carries his head"

UM well if you watch real careful and you do not have to look that hard there are a lot of lame jumpers, hell I watched a BNT training warm up a high A/o for days and I never saw that horse trot except one time in a grooms hand running back to barn and it was lame. They enter the ring at the walk and canter.. SO I do not think the no standing martingales over a certain $$$ level is about HIDING lameness, they hide it just fine without them.

Jaegermonster was responding to a Q about martingales in the hack I think

[galwaybay]

"Jaegermonster

because it can possibly be used to camoflauge a lameness by a rider who is skilled enough to know how to do it, and because it artificially influences the way a horse carries his head"

UM well if you watch real careful and you do not have to look that hard there are a lot of lame jumpers, hell I watched a BNT training warm up a high A/o for days and I never saw that horse trot except one time in a grooms hand running back to barn and it was lame. They enter the ring at the walk and canter.. SO I do not think the no standing martingales over a certain $$$ level is about HIDING lameness, they hide it just fine without them.

Jumpers are not judged on soundness - hunters supposedly are - that's what used to be the point of courtesy circles... and the jogs for ribbons...

I guess one of the reasons it's based on Prize money is because Prize $$ is only given in certain classes w/ certain fence heights...but it is still kind of odd - there must have been some kind of reasoning behind it...

[Seal Harbor]

The hunters, whether at 2'6" or 4' are not technical tracks, they are straight forward, there are no jumps that one would do at an angle or from a tricky distance, if you do you don't get a prize. The jumper tracks can be very technical and trappy and one would want a horse to have full use of his head and neck to be able to get out of those situations. A hunter in the 4' is not going to be jumping the same sort of course as a jumper doing a 4' division.

[beeblebrox]

"Seal Harbor

The hunters, whether at 2'6" or 4' are not technical tracks, they are straight forward, there are no jumps that one would do at an angle or from a tricky distance, if you do you don't get a prize. The jumper tracks can be very technical and trappy and one would want a horse to have full use of his head and neck to be able to get out of those situations. A hunter in the 4' is not going to be jumping the same sort of course as a jumper doing a 4' division."


so they are allowed in jumpers over 4 foot, did you read the second post in this thread?
JP111 Tack and Attire.
1. Martingales.
a. Classes offering less than $1000—No martingale restrictions.
b. Classes offering $1000 to $4999—Only standing or running martingales used in the
conventional manner are permitted.
c. Classes offering $5000 or more (and all classes restricted to young horses)—Only

[beeblebrox]

asanders and galwaybay

If you look above I did state that I had misread the part about the hack.

[Seal Harbor]

"Seal Harbor

The hunters, whether at 2'6" or 4' are not technical tracks, they are straight forward, there are no jumps that one would do at an angle or from a tricky distance, if you do you don't get a prize. The jumper tracks can be very technical and trappy and one would want a horse to have full use of his head and neck to be able to get out of those situations. A hunter in the 4' is not going to be jumping the same sort of course as a jumper doing a 4' division."


so they are allowed in jumpers over 4 foot, did you read the second post in this thread?
JP111 Tack and Attire.
1. Martingales.
a. Classes offering less than $1000—No martingale restrictions.
b. Classes offering $1000 to $4999—Only standing or running martingales used in the
conventional manner are permitted.
c. Classes offering $5000 or more (and all classes restricted to young horses)—Only

Yes, I did. However since I was comparing the track not the height or money I wasn't too concerned with the actual rule.

Since the Hunters top out at 4' (technically 4'6") I was showing a comparison to the same height but the fact that the tracks are different.

I know very few people who do a jumper in a standing. No matter what the height or amount of money. They go without any martingale if they aren't in need of a running or aren't ready for it.

[CenterStage123]

My guess as to why it is prize money not height is that maybe they think that people will get more competitive over money, therefore putting thief horse in trickier situations. And a standing martingale would not help the horse out in those situations. This is just a guess I've never even ridden jumpers before.haha

[foursocks]

I'm (also) just guessing, but thinking about it logically the jumper tracks involve a lot more extreme movement, and while I can not imagine a hunter breaking its standing under normal circumstances (i.e. no faulty tack, no stumbling on landing, etc.), a jumper coming off a big fence and snapping its head up as it makes a sharp turn could definitely do so. A running has two points of contact, not one, and because the rings slide, and the contact is with the reins, also flexible (versus the fixed noseband), there is a ton more give.

That makes sense to me- and perhaps (again I am guessing) the rule was originally set up in the simpler days when there were a lot fewer divisions and money followed height and difficulty.

[Portia]

Seal Harbor and foursocks are right that not allowing standing martingales in the bigger jumpers (at least by money) is about not restricting the head and neck of a horse who is going to jump much more technical tracks from a much faster pace than any hunter, and therefore far more likely to need complete freedom to get out of trouble.

As for why it's restricted by money rather than height, I'm making an educated guess that's it's a combination of two reasons. First, because of the assumption (not always correct) that the lower money classes will be at lower heights and with less technical courses. The probable logic was that if you're in a class that has that much money in it, you and your horse should be experienced enough that you should not need a standing martingale and if you do, you shouldn't be in the class. The flip side of that is that you'll also have less experienced horses and riders in the no or low money classes who may be more likely to get in trouble regardless of fence height. Second, while the USEF staff and committees try hard, the USEF rule making process lends itself to hasty drafting by people who understand horses but don't necessarily have experience in drafting rules and regulations. Things get done by compromise and last minute language changes are very, very common. The rule gets in the book and so long as there's not a big issue at a show, or unless someone in the jumper committee or safety committee decides it needs to be changed, it doesn't get changed. That's how the rule got written and, since you rarely ever seen a standing martingale in any jumper class regardless of level or amount of money, it hasn't been changed because there hasn't been a big reason to change it. Again, that's just my educated guess as someone is is familiar with the USEF rulemaking process.

[PNWjumper]

I agree with Portia....that's always what I've assumed too. And if I recall correctly, the rule used to state that you couldn't use a standing martingale in classes with fence heights 3'6" and above (or above 3'6", can't remember which). I always figured there was some reason it got changed to the money cutoff that had something to do with someone wanting to be able to use a standing on a green(er) horse over big(ger) fences that petitioned and got it changed. Either that or it was just reworded to "fix" some particular situation.

[Ruby G. Weber]

First - standing martingales are not illegal. The use of standing martingales is restricted to hunters and equitation (except USEF Talent Search), low level jumpers and other jumper classes previously mentioned.

Standing martingales are a useful training aid. With young/green or spoiled horses the standing martingale - when adjusted correctly - encourages the horse to find the correct balance and accept the rider's hands without the rider having to constantly "be in the horse's mouth. Like all training aids they can be abused. Many BNR's use them. Katie Prudent and Joe Fargis come to mind. Rodney Jenkins was a proponent of the standing martingale.

In theory as a horse progresses up the ranks (classes which offer more prize money) in the jumper ring his training becomes more sophisticated/confirmed thus eliminating the need for training aids like the standing martingale.

With a running martingale - again properly adjusted - if/when the horse tosses it's head/gets above the bit it will feel slight pressure in the mouth from the martingale/rein contact and, in theory, go back on the bit. Again the object is to enable the rider to use as little hand as possible.

[CacheDawnTaxes]

That is a really interesting point I didn't know. As everyone else has said if it were over a safety issue with the horse being able to use his head and neck, then why force to be because of prize money? having said that to, Hunter vs Jumpers is a completely different world. A very different way of thinking(which I wish was not the case). I wouldn't mind seeing them go completely. I think it would increase the amount of training and care put into jumping, maybe turn out more balanced and better trained horses which actually makes me wonder this. If you are competing in classes with higher prize cash you will typically see riders on higher end mounts as well which have likely gone thru more professional training, more work? would make the need for martingales less likely which might have brought on that rule? (just my thinking on a lot of pain killers, I'm off to bed...)

[fourmares]

I think that the rule might have been written back when 3'6" was the lowest height for jumpers. At that time there was no prize money to be had at that height.

[Janet]

The rule appears to have gone into effect sometime between 1995 and 1999.

At that time, jumper divisions were based on "money won" (Preliminary, Inermediate, Open).

In 1995 and 1999, the height requirements were tied to the prize money offered.

The only clases below 3'6" were
Prelim/Int/Open classes at shows rated "Local" (NO height restrictions)
Adult/Cildrens/Pony jumpers (all three listed in 1999, only Pony in 1995)

[gusbabe]

Just want to be sure ( would hate to DQ'd because I didn't ask!) Does anyone know if the USEF rules are the same regarding the pony jumpers?
thanks!