Thoroughbreds are "back in"?

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Before we get technical I think everyone can agree that the stereotypical TB wasn't so popular, and quite frankly in my area frowned on at shows. Again, without being technical. I've seen quite a few lately though, placing well and rightfully so. Read another topic where someone said they had sold a few quite rapidly. You get the picture! So what do we think? Back in, just luck? To me it seems the 'show world' is finally growing up and looking past a lot of artificial-ness that was once praised.

[Lucassb]

I think most knowledgeable trainers and clients buy horses as individuals, not papers. And a lot of people who rail against the success that WBs have had in the show ring have made a lot of noise about how they are just "trendy" or whatever, but that hasn't been my experience. I've owned and shown both and haven't seen much discrimination in either direction.

TBs were all the rage when courses favored a horse with a lot of brilliance that could jump out of stride. As conditions changed and we showed more in smaller rings over heavily decorated jumps, the judges rewarded the horses that could lope the lines and still show a beautiful bascule. Now the TB breeders who are producing horses for the ring are breeding for that type, and those that are successful are doing just as well as those who are breeding WBs that can get the job done.

A good horse is a good horse regardless of its breeding; if it can win the hack and demonstrate a beautiful bascule over the jumps, it is going to be in demand.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I think most knowledgeable trainers and clients buy horses as individuals, not papers. And a lot of people who rail against the success that WBs have had in the show ring have made a lot of noise about how they are just "trendy" or whatever, but that hasn't been my experience. I've owned and shown both and haven't seen much discrimination in either direction.

TBs were all the rage when courses favored a horse with a lot of brilliance that could jump out of stride. As conditions changed and we showed more in smaller rings over heavily decorated jumps, the judges rewarded the horses that could lope the lines and still show a beautiful bascule. Now the TB breeders who are producing horses for the ring are breeding for that type, and those that are successful are doing just as well as those who are breeding WBs that can get the job done.

A good horse is a good horse regardless of its breeding; if it can win the hack and demonstrate a beautiful bascule over the jumps, it is going to be in demand.

While I personally agree with you, and by the way so nicely said! Many others may as well. There is the other percentage who won't, or wouldn't even look at a thoroughbred for sale. Maybe not for person preference but for resaleability. I mean come on! Someone has to agree with me here, at one time in the past few years the breed was OUT! I know for a fact it wasn't just me imagining that because i've presented a TB ad had people say "no, were not looking for a thoroughbred" and other comments directed toward the no TB's clause.

[IsolaBella09]

My horse is a Westphalian/TB cross, so I get the best of both worlds? :lol: I do feel like a lot of people are starting to looking at TBs more, rather than the warmbloods. I think more people are looking at a horse because of what they can do, rather than what their breeding or papers are. I've seen a handful of really nice TBs at a bunch of shows that have done well.

[make x it x so]

I wonder if it also has to do with the economy. Maybe people feel like they can get a better deal on a thoroughbred?

I don't think they were really "out" in most judges' minds, but I do know that comparable TB and WB hunters usually have vastly different prices. I have a TB right now that probably would have been out of my price range as a WB. I personally like TBs from a size standpoint as the narrower build complements the length of my legs... or lack thereof. The round WBs make me look even tinier than I really am.

[Lucassb]

While I personally agree with you, and by the way so nicely said! Many others may as well. There is the other percentage who won't, or wouldn't even look at a thoroughbred for sale. Maybe not for person preference but for resaleability. I mean come on! Someone has to agree with me here, at one time in the past few years the breed was OUT! I know for a fact it wasn't just me imagining that because i've presented a TB ad had people say "no, were not looking for a thoroughbred" and other comments directed toward the no TB's clause.

Depends where those TBs come from. I think that there are a lot of people who won't look at a TB that has come off the track, mostly because of concerns about horses that have worked as hard as many TBs do at an early age. Of course some retire sound and stay that way, but many come off that early career with some jewelry that may or may not haunt them later.

I think it also depends on whether you are talking about horses that are prospects, or proven show horses.

A horse with a good record - meaning demonstrated ability to win at the level it is being marketed to - isn't going to face the discrimination that an unproven prospect might. People buy winners, period. They probably don't even *care* what the breed is if it's been champion every weekend.

The objection to TBs is more common in unproven horses being marketed to the H/J crowd. That is not unreasonable in a way; *most* TBs in recent years have been bred for a different job (racing) compared to your typical WB (which has been purpose-bred to be a show horse.) So you are really at that point talking about potential suitability rather than outright breed prejudice. Have some very nice horses been passed up because of concerns about resale? Yes, I'm sure. But mostly people pass because the horse simply isn't (or at least isn't likely to be) the type they are looking for. TBs *tend* to have more engine. They *tend* to require a more tactful ride, and more preparation than the average WB. It is often a lot more difficult to get to the "bottom" of a TB than your average WB. A lot of people aren't looking for that kind of ride, particularly for your average adult or junior client.

These are generalizations, of course. There are plenty of quiet TBs and plenty of hot WBs out there... but again, particularly if you are talking about unproven horses, most will play the percentages.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I for one am excited, my 3 yo is screaming hunter right now. She's a beefy big tailed TB, and if all goes well she will make a fantastic hunter!

[Huntrs+eq]

I feel like it was the influx of warmbloods (mid- to late-90s?) that perpetuated the thoroughbred stereotype: hot-blooded, harder to handle. Combine that with increasing numbers of h/j riders, especially ammies and jrs, and you've got a whole new generation to spread the stereotype.

I think the number of w.b.s coming in started to outweigh the number of t.b.s coming in. Perhaps t.b.s being "back in" is really just not as many w.b.s entering the scene and the ratio beginning to stabilize.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like the advent of the dutch warmblood began the warmblood era?

[iridehorses]

personally, i find wbs to be gorgeous and beautiful.
but while i love wbs, i would not turn down a tb.
i have a thoroughbred and everyone always tells me how nice of a warmblood he is, im like HES A THOROUGHBRED!

[WW_Queen]

I get that as well. My TB is 17.2hh, nice lines, beautiful neck, pretty head, (was, before his arthritis) a great mover, was super adjustable over fences but would cart a novice around no problems.

People would get my attention and ask what breed of WB he was. They were all surprised to hear he was a French TB. It's a shame sporthorse breeders don't breed for his type anymore. If he was a stud I could've made major $$$! :)

[jmvwiv]

at HITS last week a trainer approached my trainer asking if the "green mare with the socks" was for sale. One of his clients is looking for a pre-green and they noticed my mare. Flattering yes - but to point of this topic - they didnt give a rat's rear what breed she is.

[Equinoxfox]

Gotta Say.. I Loff the TB . They have heart , they give you their all. And besides they are beautiful. Especially when fat & slick for the Hunters.
" Nothing can beat a well turned - out TB"...:yes:

[jse]

We have clients right now that do not want TB's...only WB's. Couldn't tell ya why. Some are also partial to sex, they only want geldings, especially the Hunter people. That can possibly be understood. But I can't quite explain it better than, to each his own!

[luvs2ridewbs]

I have heard a very BNT decline some consignment sales on account of Tbred's being "out".
As my name suggests, I really do love the wbs but if the right tbred came along, I would still be interested. As for the battle of the sexes, I prefer geldings but again, if the right mare came along, I would buy. I've known some nice, non marey ones.

[sm]

We have clients right now that do not want TB's...only WB's. Couldn't tell ya why. Some are also partial to sex, they only want geldings, especially the Hunter people. That can possibly be understood. But I can't quite explain it better than, to each his own!

But if they can't see a TB has talent, they're probably not smart enough to ride one anyway.

[LivviesMom]

I think with the economy you will se more TB's in the ring. Mainly because they are less expensive to purchase as there are soo many out there, and they are exceptional athletes. Which is just fine with me. I love a good TB, as someone else said they have the heart and will give you everything they have.

I cant wait to get my 4 year old out to her first shows. She has a great "look at me I'm awesome" attitude. I will tell you this.. if she touches a rail, she'll jump double hard over the next one. She HATES touching rails.

[vineyridge]

Could the hunter derby classes have something to do with it?

They reward brilliance and gutsiness, and good TBs are loaded with both. If the hunter derbies become the pinnacle in hunterland, it's likely that more BNRs will be willing to ride TBs, so more breeders will be breeding them for the hunters, and more trainers will be willing to have them in their strings for dual use with the ammies.

And wouldn't that be good for all TBs in the end?

[vxf111]

vineyridge I haven't been following every result, but the hunter derbies I've seen/read about weren't won by TBs. They were won by WBs.

I think the whole in/out thing is so ridiculous. You have some people who HAVE to sit on a branded butt with four whites. You have some people who HAVE to sit on a 17.3 hand monster. You have some people who HAVE to sit on a get of the stallion du jour...

And then you have most competitive people, who want to sit on the winner.

That last group don't care if the horse is a thoroughbred or a mule so long as it looks the part and does the job. You can spend your life trying to please the first group and you never will because there's always something new that's trendy and everyone wants.

I don't think the judges care. The horse with the best trip is going to win and no one's checking papers and asking for a close inspection of branding. Judges may have a "type" preferences, but frankly these days there are just as many warmbloods that are TB type as vice versa. A good horse is a good horse.

[vineyridge]

Yes, but how many TBs were entered in hunter derby classes? I don't give a rat's patooty if TBs win, as long as the TB ( old fashioned hunter) style and way of going is what wins. As long as the "rules" aren't changed to favor WBs, then TBs have as good a chance of winning as the imported horse with the devil's pitchfork on his butt.

Doesn't help that the programs do list breed and breeding, so the judging isn't starting from a completely blank slate. In a way, this reminds me of the human employment problems we have and have had because of stereotyping.

Of course, given the changes in the hunters, it would be nice if the special, limited classes were changed from Non-TB hunters (now the vast majority) to TB hunters.

[showmom858]

When we were looking for a horse for my 14 year old D we didn't care what kind of horse it was as long as it was the right one for her!

We ended up with a TB (never raced) who has a great show record in first year greens and some large junior hunter classes also. My D could not be happier with her new boy. She will show him in Children's hunters and 3' eq this season and hope to move up to 3'6" with him next season.

The best horse we have ever owned so far was my older Ds little 15.3 hand hunter who was a full TB. He really taught her to ride and she won everything on him, but he really cracked his back! We have owned or leased some lovely warmbloods also, but this little guy was truly special.

We hope our new TB will be a special one too!

[veebug22]

I think TBs are going to make a comeback too. As was mentioned, they're easier to come by for a low price than a warmblood. And I think a lot of people are over the big, dopey, slow stereotype of the warmblood. People are realizing that there are plenty of hot-tempered and tough-to-ride warmbloods out there! And I think people are starting to realize that putting a 5'4 ammy on a quiet but heavy 17+ hh horse doesn't immediately earn ooohs and aaahs. You need to be able to ride the darn thing. My point is that I really do think there's less of an initial impression when you say your horse is big and warmblood, because that doesn't always equate to ability in the show ring. The more people that have them out there, the more this becomes obvious. They're not as much of a rarity, and have lost a lot of the exclusivity factor. And the more common they get, the more often they get into the hands of not-so-great trainers. Think about it -- when they were more exclusive, they weren't as common in barns with trainers not charging top dollar. I don't want to equate "expensive" with "good", but more expensive training often means better or a more experienced trainer. As they become more common in barns with less experienced or talented trainers, they'll start to lose that "get on and go" stereotype. That's in large part training, not temperament. Those horses that can cart an inexperienced ammy around a big course are very well trained -- it's not just because they're warmbloods.

There are also people out there seeking modern-looking, athletic, scopey warmbloods with a bit of spunk because they want to tap into that raw jumping talent. Even if they do great in the show ring, I think every time you see a horse like that in the show ring, it makes people realize that warmblood doesn't always equate with quiet and easy-to-ride. Yes, they are bred to jump and often very fancy, but I think the stereotypes are getting blurred as we also see not-so-fancy or not-so-easy warmbloods around, or we realize that certain warmblood breeds are quieter than others. And with this, I think there is room for the TB stereotype to be questioned too. But we've bred a lot of TBs with indiscretion and in some ways have helped add to the negative side of the stereotype.

I'm not saying I don't love a stunning warmblood and think that on average, a well-bred warmblood has a better chance at being a great jumper than a TB. That's what they're bred for. My mare is half Holsteiner (other half TB!) and if I bred her, it would probably be to a Holsteiner stallion that I have in mind with incredible jumping talent. But there are lots of nice TBs out there, who could be really competitive given the chance at great training in a top program and are often had at a cheaper price.

[zahena]

Since I'm trying to sell my greenie, I sure hope that they are "in". LOL!

Its funny because my student is looking at his horse and he claims to be warmblood but then you look at his dam's side and there's Secretariat, Bold Ruler....uh, last I checked those were TB's!!! I think out here they don't care if they are TB or Warmblood. But we are heavily into QH out here too.

Personally, I want a bumper sticker that reads "I ride American" with a picture of my TB on it! Of course, he's an amazing toad but that's just because he likes to be ornery.

I'm with the crowd that doesn't care about papers, I want the best fit for myself or my client.

[jse]

But if they can't see a TB has talent, they're probably not smart enough to ride one anyway.

Now that's not necessarily true. I know plenty of people who are smart enough and have enough skill to ride a TB successfully, but they just plain out don't like them.
Confirmation, disposition, etc. But who's to say they're right or wrong? Not me.
It's whatever to me, I've known TB's who were lean as all get out straight off the track and wild to home bred and quiet as all can be. In fact, we recently sold a TB gelding who was OTTB but when you looked at him you would never guess that 1. he was a TB and 2. he was OTTB! He was darn near perfect and would hack around with anyone (including my unbalanced post pregnant self) on any given day. However, when we presented him to our clients when we first put him up for sale, they saw him and as quiet and sweet and even natured as he was they said "Nope...sorry. No TB's for us."

[vineyridge]

And that's stereotyping at its worst.

WHY don't they like TBs? Are all TBs alike? Of course not. Nor are all WBs likeable, because they aren't all alike either.

[jse]

And that's stereotyping at its worst.

WHY don't they like TBs? Are all TBs alike? Of course not. Nor are all WBs likeable, because they aren't all alike either.

It is stereotyping, it happens with the breed of the horse, it happens with the height of the horse, hell it happens with the COLOR of the horse (chestnut mare beware!) and I'm guilty of doing it for sure. I couldn't tell you why they don't like them. I'm sure fads have something to do with it in some cases however, most breeds carry certain characteristics and some people just don't like them. IMHO, I wouldn't own an Arabian to save my soul, just don't like them, never have, although I'm sure there are like-able Arabian creatures out there but in my experiences I have found that I just don't like them. And that's just me, has nothing to do with fads, nothing to do with anything else other than....just don't like em!

[dmj]

"frowned on"? Really? lol.

[jse]

"frowned on"? Really? lol.

????

[MyGiantPony]

My mare is a Dutch Warmblood, and I can't tell you how many times I've been asked if she's off the track. :lol:

Frankly, if there's no brand to see, I defy anyone to look at a typey hunter and know for sure if it's a TB or a WB or a cross.

I've never heard of a judge scoring a trip and saying "that's a TB so I'm not going to pin it because it's just not in fashion".

I mean, really????

[jse]

My mare is a Dutch Warmblood, and I can't tell you how many times I've been asked if she's off the track. :lol:

Frankly, if there's no brand to see, I defy anyone to look at a typey hunter and know for sure if it's a TB or a WB or a cross.

I've never heard of a judge scoring a trip and saying "that's a TB so I'm not going to pin it because it's just not in fashion".

I mean, really????

I've never heard of it either, but apparently people feel as if there's a difference in results...who knows.

[dmj]

MyGiantPony said it better than I could.

[jumpingmaya]

Ok, so I'm a thoroughbred lover all the way... Grew up riding warmbloods in Europe then came here and got my tbd...
I truly feel like the main problem lies with the breeding.... When the thoroughbred were "in", they were being bred like the European tbds are... Big, more bone... pretty much, bred to last... The problem today is that they are bred for speed and not longevity. You see them, thinner and thinner boned, breeding terrible conformation... what happened to breeding for quality and not quantity??? Either way, that's my 2cents...
I personally feel that a lot of the stereotypes come from how they are bred and handled.... When you know that these horses get injected for everything (from pain to just muscling them up), get aced everyday to be trained and are cooped up in stalls for all of their track lives... well guess I'd be nuts by the time you got me out of there too...
I honestly feel that if you were to breed a warmblood and a thoroughbred and bring them along the exact same way... you probably wouldn't have any stereotypes...
Personally, nothing beats the heart of a tbd... and I went all the way with mine... red head mare :yes:

[findeight]

The last person I heard telling child they did not place because it was a TB?

One of those brain dead things overheard at small shows.

Let's just say that was the least of this one's problems.
It is always more convenient to blame breed, type, color or sex instead of consider the trip sucked or there were just too many little mistakes.

Those selling a TB prospect may find it a little harder then with a WB prospect as a Hunter simply because the WB is bred for the task while the TB is bred for something else. Get them a little farther along in training, particularly get them out at the shows and nobody cares what it is.

As a poster said earlier "Hey, is that chestnut for sale". They don't care what it is.

Various people I know have purchased 3 horses in the past 8 weeks. One WB. One TB. One 50/50%. And the TB was the greenest of them (still W-T-C, confirmed change and go over small fences).
The demise of the TB in the Hunter ring has been grossly exaggerated. They are not "coming back". They never left.

[lyrical]

I always laugh (to myself) when a customers says "oh, we aren't ionterested in any TB's, only Warmbloods." My broodmares are the old fashioned TB's, big boned, calm dispositions, good minds and great movers and jumpers (think Castle Magic types...remember him and his offspring?)

When I cross those mares with a warmblood with the same characteristics, I have a really good hunter. And the fun part is having them inspected and branded in the breed registry of choice. Then I have a warmblood for the people who weren't interested in any TB's.

[jse]

Ok, so I'm a thoroughbred lover all the way... Grew up riding warmbloods in Europe then came here and got my tbd...
I truly feel like the main problem lies with the breeding.... When the thoroughbred were "in", they were being bred like the European tbds are... Big, more bone... pretty much, bred to last... The problem today is that they are bred for speed and not longevity. You see them, thinner and thinner boned, breeding terrible conformation... what happened to breeding for quality and not quantity??? Either way, that's my 2cents...
I personally feel that a lot of the stereotypes come from how they are bred and handled.... When you know that these horses get injected for everything (from pain to just muscling them up), get aced everyday to be trained and are cooped up in stalls for all of their track lives... well guess I'd be nuts by the time you got me out of there too...
I honestly feel that if you were to breed a warmblood and a thoroughbred and bring them along the exact same way... you probably wouldn't have any stereotypes...
Personally, nothing beats the heart of a tbd... and I went all the way with mine... red head mare :yes:

I've been sayin' this for a while now. They just don't make them the way they used to...look at Man O' War...then look at today's TB. They've definitely changed. Sure that's a BIG gap in years, but I feel that over time they've definitely lost what they once had. Even in the past 10-15 years. No fault of the horse, but the breeders.
And kudos to you for taking on that red head mare! I'm one to go against the grain with that one, I know a few chestnut mares who are about as sweet as they can be! I bet yours is as well!
I always laugh (to myself) when a customers says "oh, we aren't ionterested in any TB's, only Warmbloods." My broodmares are the old fashioned TB's, big boned, calm dispositions, good minds and great movers and jumpers (think Castle Magic types...remember him and his offspring?)

When I cross those mares with a warmblood with the same characteristics, I have a really good hunter. And the fun part is having them inspected and branded in the breed registry of choice. Then I have a warmblood for the people who weren't interested in any TB's.
I agree with you, crossing the two can get a very nice horse! I own two 50/50! They are the best! I love them to pieces. It's a good mix for sure.

[farmgirl88]

I think- like many things in the H/J world...the warmbloods where a "fad". A few really nice, flashy looking ones came along and did really well and then everyone had them. I personally, dont like seeing big heavy, solid looking horses that "lope" down the lines in the hunter classes. I want something with some pace, the big stride, the daisy cutter trot, and the nice, round jump.

A lot of people made a lot of fuss when the warmbloods came around. I personally sometimes wnat to puke when i see them go. While many are great, athletic, wonderfulyl bred, and beautifully put together horses...i just dont like the look they portray in the hunter ring. Dont get me wrong- id love to have something like that in my barn...but i just dont like seeing them out there. they are not what a true hunter should be.

The Thoroughbreds that are hunters, conformationally, etc...are what i think a true hunter should be. Lighter in bone, balanced conformation, not the heavy look of the warmbloods. Not so much suspension in their gates but they make the overall picture look effortless and polished compared to a heavier, more thicker boned warmblood. Hunters are supposed to resemble those that compete in the hunt fields...carrying pace and stride that could get them across long distances with little effort. I have a hard time believing that the warmbloods could last that long- carry pace, etc.

You see a TB hunter here:

http://equisearch.com/horses_care/health/anatomy/hunter_thoroughbred_700.jpg

http://www.janemcloud.com/images/jane_hunter1.jpg

Compared to Sir Calletto who i s a warmblood:
http://www.silverhorne.com/Stallion_Sir_Caletto/Sir_Caletto_hunter_conformation.gif

Both are beautiful looking horses....but to me the thoroughbred just screams HUNTER to me. Warmbloods..while many are great at their jobs...to me...just dont scream hunters. too much bone and substance, not enough pace, plenty of stride and movement, too much suspension

Im more than happy the TB's are comming back, YAY!:D

[farmgirl88]

And in reply to "a judge pinning just because its a fad"...i be to differ. theres a lot of politics in hunters- theres no denying it. You have a heavier, bigger boned animal that lopes down the lines like a lug, has plenty of stride, nice jump, auto changes, ground covering mover, but a bit more suspension. nice conformation but overall heavier in appearance.

Then you have a TB in that same class who is lighter in bone. daisy cutter mover (the true daisy cutter, ground covering mover), lopey, long stride...BUT---carries more pace than the WB...but just an overall different look than the WB. Most differentiated thing is that the TB would carry a bit more of an active pace, instead of a sleepy like pace...

if the majority of the horses in the ring with that TB are warmbloods like the one described above... the judge...i will gaurantee you...will pick the WB over the TB's...

Theres a reason why everyone went out and bougth warmbloods over thoroughbreds in recent years. They wouldnt buy them over TB's if they didnt place over them. I think that the idea of hunters are slowly starting to come back to what it was before and we're starting to see that judges are recognizing thoroughbreds again

[MLP]

I think this thread is funny. I mean ultimately every breed, besides Arab has a little Thoroughbred in it. How many other threads have you seen people not sure if it's a warmblood or a tb. Personally I think you will have the extremes, the very heavy warmblood / irish draught type horse to the so refined you are afraid to sneeze on it TB but the majority in between could be TB or WB, you find very quiet, bigger boned TB and you also see hot, more refined WBs. It's kind of a joke that anyone would be so ignorant as to NOT recognize a good horse because of it's breeding. I was told, you don't ride the papers and you don't. TBs are and were more afordable as was the fact that importing horses, let's say even 25 years ago was definitely a harder, more expensive (relatively) feat than it is now and I think that has helped. I personally like the 50/50s, a little more substance and quiet than a straight up TB but more refinement and a little more blood to the WB.

[MLP]

One more comment. Everyone is saying that the TB is more of the "real" hunter. Do you really think? I have done much riding on trails and "outback" trail riding, hunting, real cross country riding (here and overseas) and I would NEVER want a light, hot TB to ride, you are on uneven terrain, I don't want something I can't have contact with or that is flighty or spooky - that's downright dangerous! Maybe for endurance but not for hunting. You are 1/2 drunk (in the hunt field) :D, if that was the case then all field hunters - which are the "true" hunters would be light and most of them are heavier than what is accepted in the ring so I beg to argue that point. It is what was more readily available and affordable and now warmbloods, who are nice in their own right, are more accessible. I don't see why it's a good or bad thing, there is a place for each of these types and trust me the judge makes the rule and you may find one that loves TBs and one that loves WBs but if you go in on a horse against their LOVE and nail the trip, you are getting a ribbon unless it's rigged and then you aren't ever gonna win anyway. I have seen good riders go in on WBs and TBs and win, you know why, because they have a great eye, they get the right pace and they support the horse to jump it's best.

[Filly85']

One more comment. Everyone is saying that the TB is more of the "real" hunter. Do you really think? I have done much riding on trails and "outback" trail riding, hunting, real cross country riding (here and overseas) and I would NEVER want a light, hot TB to ride, you are on uneven terrain, I don't want something I can't have contact with or that is flighty or spooky - that's downright dangerous! Maybe for endurance but not for hunting. You are 1/2 drunk (in the hunt field) :D, if that was the case then all field hunters - which are the "true" hunters would be light and most of them are heavier than what is accepted in the ring so I beg to argue that point. It is what was more readily available and affordable and now warmbloods, who are nice in their own right, are more accessible. I don't see why it's a good or bad thing, there is a place for each of these types and trust me the judge makes the rule and you may find one that loves TBs and one that loves WBs but if you go in on a horse against their LOVE and nail the trip, you are getting a ribbon unless it's rigged and then you aren't ever gonna win anyway. I have seen good riders go in on WBs and TBs and win, you know why, because they have a great eye, they get the right pace and they support the horse to jump it's best.

The TBs that I have ridden have all been calmer than the WBs that I have ridden. I have one now that is going to be a beginning children's hunter and lesson horse by the time she is 5 years of age. I trained another one that was an absolutely amazing children's hunter. Both were mare, and were as good as gold. While some of them are as hot as people say, most of them are not at all. I've seen some WBs that have been much worse temperament wise than any of the TBs that I have ever ridden.

And the TB is more of the "real hunter".

I will tell you what the judges like.

The judges like the TB type horse. The flat moving, no knee action, huge stride, athletic, light boned, little suspension, consistent horse that can jump the moon (super round bascule and knees up to their eyeballs)!

Some WBs did and still do fit this bill. I love a good WB as long as the horse is as described above. However, when these TB type WBs started winning classes, everyone wanted one. And everyone brought in these heavy boned, knee action, suspension horses and thought it was correct. Because everyone had them, the judges had to pin them by default in the classes. And they haven't gone out yet. Like I've said before, judges can only judge what you put in the class. Just because WBs are winning doesn't mean that they are ideal because if everyone else the same type of heavy, knee action type horse, what are they supposed to do in that case? For other cases, some judges don't have the balls to be brave and place the more correct horse because it is not the current fad. Of couse, if they did that they might would never be asked to judge at that show again. It is quite the predicament.

Most judges "prefer" the light type horse that I described above. And nothing will beat the heart of the TB. Both of those TBs that I rode would give me everything they had and then some.

[DMK]

When the thoroughbred were "in", they were being bred like the European tbds are... Big, more bone... pretty much, bred to last... The problem today is that they are bred for speed and not longevity. You see them, thinner and thinner boned, breeding terrible conformation... what happened to breeding for quality and not quantity???

I think this is a bit of a misconception, and the truth is a bit more complex. If you look at pictures of TBs from the 40's through the 70's it's not like they are that much different in build than horses today. Some had great legs and some had godawful wheels (and ran great in spite of them), some had a ton of bone, some did not, The same is true today.

The biggest difference is when and how we get a TB off the track. Forty years ago horses weren't ran down a jillion levels, always finding another track when they got ruled off a higher level. There weren't as many horses being bred and just like hunters were back then, it was more of a hobby/sport than a business sport. Nowadays there are a lot more TBs getting run down to nothing and unless you have contacts and are fairly lucky, chances are you are not getting a nice, well bred youngster after he proves hijmself not quite up to Belmont standards. He generally runs on down quite a few levels and we get them off Fingerlakes or Charles Town.

BUt GO to a nice TB farm and take a look at the horses they thought worth taking back to the farm to breed. Tell me those broodmare bands are weedy and lacking bone and that those stallions are not substantial. Look at the youngsters going through the sale at the median price or higher and tell me that isn't good looking stock.

That TB is out there, it's just harder and harder for us to get a hold of him before it is too late to give him a second career.

[jumpingmaya]

BUt GO to a nice TB farm and take a look at the horses they thought worth taking back to the farm to breed. Tell me those broodmare bands are weedy and lacking bone and that those stallions are not substantial. Look at the youngsters going through the sale at the median price or higher and tell me that isn't good looking stock.

That TB is out there, it's just harder and harder for us to get a hold of him before it is too late to give him a second career.

I do agree with you... but there are a lot more tbd breeders breeding "crap" (excuse my language)... The ones that make it to the nice TB farms and turn into great broodmares are usually not the ones from the average Joe trainer... People spent a LOT of stud fees and even though they are not competitive as race horses, they decide to breed them to give it another shot.
But in all, I agree with you that the tbs today are overworked, over run and used way too young... and that by the time we get them, they are fried (mentally and physically) :no:

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

????


I was wondering the same thing. Yes, frowned on. Here I give a few sayings or specifications. Because if I were to use "hated" or "turned down" I would have had people reply "hated... Really?".

[findeight]

I have done much riding on trails and "outback" trail riding, hunting, real cross country riding (here and overseas) and I would NEVER want a light, hot TB to ride...

You and me both, girlfriend.

I don't even want a hot WB like a Selles Francaise out there...gimme a nice old QH or one of those old timey Appys (the ones with the mule heads and scraggly manes and tails)n that have BTDT and never put a foot wrong. Or one of those Irish Draft (Draught?) types they go howling around the Irish countryside on, frequently half in the bag;).

I don't know that judges of fine Hunters in show rings really want a TB described as "light and hot" either. Or have ever rewarded that.

[SEPowell]

One more comment. Everyone is saying that the TB is more of the "real" hunter. Do you really think? I have done much riding on trails and "outback" trail riding, hunting, real cross country riding (here and overseas) and I would NEVER want a light, hot TB to ride, ...

Whoa! :eek: whatever you do, don't take away my thoroughbred when the hunting gets tough!!! I don't want to be on anything but one of my cat like thoroughbreds when we ski down our 75 foot gully and end up in a rocky stream, then fly up the other side and through the woods and over coops. My guys are going to make it over the logs on the way down, have enough steam to make it up the next gully and still fly the coops. I'd be scared to death to do that on anything but a thoroughbred, especially if we've passed the port :lol:

[farmgirl88]

The WB marei just sold last year was a complete wack-job. lunatic. fancy fancy....but WACKED. after a year of having her and working her she still couldnt walk up the driveway without taking off because a leaf blew across her way... and im not lying! i couldnt take it anymore. I had my gaurd up 24/7 when on her. there was no relaxing...at all! i had blisters and crap all overmy hands from trying to hold on to her when she decided to do something stupid.

The mare couldve won a lot if she didnt have a brain like that...

After i sold her----two months later i bought my OTTB. So glad i did it. Hes the best investment i ever made for 2500 bucks and he goes anywhere and will do anything i ask of him

[arktos19]

frequently half in the bag;).



Horses or riders? :lol:

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[TKR]

I respect anyone's personal preference. However, I do take exception to anyone taking it to the point of demeaning another breed not in their favor to *I suppose* "prove" what they are saying or elevate their opinion or breed they favor. All that tells me is that whoever you are, you are ignorant because you obviously don't have enough information to have an opinion. If you can't offer a reason based on the assets or merits of your chosen breed, then you have nothing. I've heard so much negative over the years regarding the Thoroughbred, but certainly not from anyone really knows and understands the breed and their bloodlines. There are quite a few that fall through the cracks that could be wonderful in sport disciplines and are not the *commercial/high priced* bloodlines. In fact, if you review the top sport Thoroughbreds' pedigrees, you'll find many of them are not of that sort of breeding. If you are only buying because they are cheap and have issues -- which is not their fault! -- you can only blame yourself. There are good Thoroughbreds still bred for sport by a handful of discriminating breeders -- but if you choose to shop at the track and are in over your head because you aren't capable or educated enough to retrain -- it's because you didn't look hard enough or wish to spend the money -- and I'm not talking about the super expensive, commercially bred that have been mentioned. Those become available as well if they don't race or produce well regardless of their heritage. Thoroughbreds are usually a more "dry" type which doesn't require massive bone to support their mass -- the amount of bone has zero to do with the soundness. If you don't want a Thoroughbred, don't buy one -- it's your loss if you don't appreciate what they offer. Have a nice day!
PennyG

[Hauwse]

I don't know that TB's were ever "out" enough to be coming back "in". I see a zillion threads on this BB about TB's, so someone is buying them. I certainly am, and have never taken a break.

Technically though the TB never left. Most of the modern WB types possess TB's as their foundations sires. Of the top 10 international jumping sires of all time, by presence, 4 are TB's. I believe that thirteen of the leading 100 show jumping sires of the 90’s were TB, which by comparison to other studbooks is not bad at all, especially given that show jumping is not a TB breeding focus, and that these TB sires received theses rankings based on individual horses rather than a long line of offspring.

I believe almost all WB registries are still open to TB's, I think one may not allow TB sires, cannot remember which one now, Trakkener? But the bottom line is that without TB infusion WB's as we know them today in the ring would cease to exist, take away the TB bloodlines and you will soon be producing cart horses and eventually plow horses again, a slight exaggeration but they would lose their athletic ability eventually.

So the TB never really left we just don't always give them the credit they deserve when it comes to WB breeding registries. In my book if I take a 65% KWPN and breed it to a TB I am basically producing a TB. The fact that I cannot register it as a TB, but can as a KWPN is all part of the perception that WB's dominate in the H/J ring.

It will probably take some time but there is a definite focus on breeding North American horses again. The bloodlines that produced Sinjoin, Mainspring, etc. are still out there and readily available. What we need to remember about the modern TB concerning early speed and precocity is that they are not breed encompassing, and they are not reversible. The majority of TB’s bred for racing today that fall into the modern undesirable category are not likely to be the horse we have access to. I don’t know about anyone else, but even as great a deal as Big Brown was at $190K, he was still far outside my purchase risk assessment parameters, and consequently I am more likely to buy the 3yo that was too slow growing, or failed to exhibit the speed necessary to run at a young age or was tested a few times as 3yo and sold off as a 4yo.

The bottom line is that evaluation, regardless of bloodlines, type, etc. is the tool we use to buy the next great horse, and with TB’s we still have to rely on this once common skill, that’s how the greatest horses our country has ever had were found and that is how the next great TB’s will be found and perhaps this time we will not be so foolish as to consider them an endless resource, and include them in our breeding programs.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I don't know that TB's were ever "out" enough to be coming back "in". I see a zillion threads on this BB about TB's, so someone is buying them. I certainly am, and have never taken a break.

Technically though the TB never left. Most of the modern WB types possess TB's as their foundations sires. Of the top 10 international jumping sires of all time, by presence, 4 are TB's. I believe that thirteen of the leading 100 show jumping sires of the 90’s were TB, which by comparison to other studbooks is not bad at all, especially given that show jumping is not a TB breeding focus, and that these TB sires received theses rankings based on individual horses rather than a long line of offspring.

I believe almost all WB registries are still open to TB's, I think one may not allow TB sires, cannot remember which one now, Trakkener? But the bottom line is that without TB infusion WB's as we know them today in the ring would cease to exist, take away the TB bloodlines and you will soon be producing cart horses and eventually plow horses again, a slight exaggeration but they would lose their athletic ability eventually.

So the TB never really left we just don't always give them the credit they deserve when it comes to WB breeding registries. In my book if I take a 65% KWPN and breed it to a TB I am basically producing a TB. The fact that I cannot register it as a TB, but can as a KWPN is all part of the perception that WB's dominate in the H/J ring.

It will probably take some time but there is a definite focus on breeding North American horses again. The bloodlines that produced Sinjoin, Mainspring, etc. are still out there and readily available. What we need to remember about the modern TB concerning early speed and precocity is that they are not breed encompassing, and they are not reversible. The majority of TB’s bred for racing today that fall into the modern undesirable category are not likely to be the horse we have access to. I don’t know about anyone else, but even as great a deal as Big Brown was at $190K, he was still far outside my purchase risk assessment parameters, and consequently I am more likely to buy the 3yo that was too slow growing, or failed to exhibit the speed necessary to run at a young age or was tested a few times as 3yo and sold off as a 4yo.

The bottom line is that evaluation, regardless of bloodlines, type, etc. is the tool we use to buy the next great horse, and with TB’s we still have to rely on this once common skill, that’s how the greatest horses our country has ever had were found and that is how the next great TB’s will be found and perhaps this time we will not be so foolish as to consider them an endless resource, and include them in our breeding programs.


They were out in the sense that when I first started showing it was the TB that was highly populated. Then, now we have the WB that is highly populated. And I think once again we are seeing the TB selling more often, and maybe it's just me but I'm noticing them making a comeback at the shows too. That doesn't mean that they were non existant, it just means for a while they sure weren't the hot commodity.

Now some of you are saying "oh they were never out I've seen pleanty" "a good trainer never judges based on breed". Well I know pleanty of "good trainers" who have passed on a thoroughbred, shame on them because that same horse beat the big (whatever breed) they chose in the hack and o/f the next season.

It's like the designer jean, you've gotta have the seven for all mankind jean and NOT the seven 7 jean. Anyone to say that the TB was never out must have lived in a TB box or something because they were definatly like I said before, not the hot commodity like the WB!

[Twomanydawgs]

Can't have a bad breed on a good horse...there are good ones in every breed...but still would take a good TB anyday over a good dumblood. Watched people today looking at horses...one was a very nice TB and the other was some kind of dummy...ppl immediatey dismissed the grey once they found out it was a TB, even though out of the two the TB was hands down the more suitable mount for the rider:no:. You can lead ppl to nice horses but you can't make them buy.

[Swale01]

I get agitated every time I read a post or two about TBs getting too "overused/overran/worn down" at the track to be worth anything for a 2nd career. As a CANTER volunteer I have seen plenty of horses with many, many starts who look great and go on to successful 2nd careers - including my own horse, who had 86 starts on the track before he became a lovely hunter. The horses who don't fold after a handful of starts are often the most sound animals you're going to find, anywhere. I will always look for a horse with multiple starts when I get an OTTB - to know that their conformation holds up to the rigors of the racing world - and if my current OTTB is any indication, I'll be riding past a lot of pampered non-ex racers sitting on the sidelines with various ailments while my soldier trucks on.

Don't assume a TB is "overrun" just because he was successful enough to hang around the track and make money for several years.

[PonyHunterz]

You can preach all you want, TB's are not "back in". I'm seeing less and less of them in the show ring.
The judges like the look and movement of a well bred WB.:yes:

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

You can preach all you want, TB's are not "back in". I'm seeing less and less of them in the show ring.
The judges like the look and movement of a well bred WB.:yes:

I'm not sure how you can see less and less when they were already pretty much vacant as a breed. They're definatly making a slow comeback.

[Lucassb]

Now some of you are saying "oh they were never out I've seen pleanty" "a good trainer never judges based on breed". Well I know pleanty of "good trainers" who have passed on a thoroughbred, shame on them because that same horse beat the big (whatever breed) they chose in the hack and o/f the next season.


I would certainly agree that there are some trainers who pass on most TBs, but IMO it is not based on breed. It is based on the knowledge they have of what that horse will take to get to the ring, how it will suit a jr/ammy client and whether or not it can win.

If in fact the TB is out there beating the WBs, it will sell easily and for a lot of $$$ regardless of breed. Look at In Sync and how many large junior titles he brought home. Trainers (and clients) want to own and ride the winners. That is how the WBs became so popular... they win a lot.

[Hauwse]

They were out in the sense that when I first started showing it was the TB that was highly populated. Then, now we have the WB that is highly populated. And I think once again we are seeing the TB selling more often, and maybe it's just me but I'm noticing them making a comeback at the shows too. That doesn't mean that they were non existant, it just means for a while they sure weren't the hot commodity.

Now some of you are saying "oh they were never out I've seen pleanty" "a good trainer never judges based on breed". Well I know pleanty of "good trainers" who have passed on a thoroughbred, shame on them because that same horse beat the big (whatever breed) they chose in the hack and o/f the next season.

It's like the designer jean, you've gotta have the seven for all mankind jean and NOT the seven 7 jean. Anyone to say that the TB was never out must have lived in a TB box or something because they were definatly like I said before, not the hot commodity like the WB!

I absolutely get that they were not prolific. I grew up riding TB's almost 40 years ago, and trust me no one has been more disappointed than me to see their numbers dwindling at shows. I still have plenty of them in different stages of training, and a couple that are a year or so away from the GP route. I was trying to make the point that regardless of all move to WB's what we are really talking about with a lot of the WB's is a slight variance in the TB. As with most sport horse the TB is added to get the athleticism and this may be a shock to some considering the talk of the TB's conformation diminishing, to improve the conformation of WB types.

Part of the reason some of todays good trainers are not interested in working with TB's is, this is a cynical perspective, but true, that there is no money in a OTTB purchased for $2500, secondly a large number of them just don't have the experience with the TB, and lack the ability to evaluate them to begin with, and then to train and develop them. The great trainers who embraced the TB are all aging out

I get agitated every time I read a post or two about TBs getting too "overused/overran/worn down" at the track to be worth anything for a 2nd career. As a CANTER volunteer I have seen plenty of horses with many, many starts who look great and go on to successful 2nd careers - including my own horse, who had 86 starts on the track before he became a lovely hunter. The horses who don't fold after a handful of starts are often the most sound animals you're going to find, anywhere. I will always look for a horse with multiple starts when I get an OTTB - to know that their conformation holds up to the rigors of the racing world - and if my current OTTB is any indication, I'll be riding past a lot of pampered non-ex racers sitting on the sidelines with various ailments while my soldier trucks on.

Don't assume a TB is "overrun" just because he was successful enough to hang around the track and make money for several years.

This is very true. A TB that ran for 8 years has more than proven its ability to stand up to the rigors of any type of career. Some horses are just hard hitters, and what would cause one horse to give up, another horse will fight past without thought. This is something that has to be understood, conformation is not the only issue when it comes to soundness and longevity, heart and will have a ton to do with it. Again, look at the show jumping hall of fame, 14 horse inducted, 12 TB's, 8 Known OTTB's, and the great horse Faithful or Huaso also a OTTB.

You can preach all you want, TB's are not "back in". I'm seeing less and less of them in the show ring.
The judges like the look and movement of a well bred WB.:yes:

Movement may be important in the hunter ring but it does not amount to a pile of beans in the jumper ring, and don't even get me started on the complete and total dominance of the TB in the hunter ring until recently.

You might want to consider why the International Hunter classes were developed. Let me give you a hint.... it all has to do with the fact that we know we will dominate with our horses in the hunter ring, but by getting international riders involved, we hopefully gain leverage with the FEI, ultimately in an effort to level the playing field in international jumper jumper competitions, and wrestling some input from the western europeans who basically control the FEI, specifically course design which is in large part geared toward the type of horses they ride; WB's.

[SquishTheBunny]

I have 2 TB hunters, but have also had warmbloods. Because I love both, this is coming from an unbiased point!

My all time favourite horse that I have owned was a little Dutch WB. She was boxy, looked like a WB but was in my size (16hh). Jumped the poop out of everything, and was absolutley the most talented jumper I have ever ridden.

That being said, one of my newest show hunters is a Thoroughbred.

He is a VERY classic Thoroughbred. 16hh, dark bay no markings. Looks TB, small head, round compact body. I bought him for what he could do, he had A show ribbons in 3' and 3'6 divisions.

This horse is consistent, on the ball and very "classy" when he goes around the ring. He rarely doesnt pin over fences. He isnt a hack superstar. He has entered 3 derbys, won all 3 in an open class (to pro's and amateurs).

I think he is "old school" hunter. Some judges love it, but some do not. He is not a back cracker, he is not a 10 mover. But, he nails the pace, the distances and puts in one heck of a smooth performance. Goes around like a true hunt horse. Hard to say anything is ever wrong with his rounds.


Not to say there arent warmbloods like that either, but I chose this TB over a few warmbloods because well, the TB did the job better!


My other Thoroughbred hunter will never be anything special in the show ring. He is cute, always grabs the hack win at the B shows, but cant compare in quality to the A show horses. Doesnt matter though, because his lovely personality has deemed him my "forever" horse, no matter what he wants to do in life.

[Tiffany01]

at my local shows they like QH's,Paints,Warmbloods,QH/TB's. TB's around here arent in as they used to be.

[Dixon]

I wonder if it also has to do with the economy. Maybe people feel like they can get a better deal on a thoroughbred?

Yes it sure does. When people have less play money, they look for better values, just as they do with vehicles. Just like a number of people have downsized from their ridiculously big, heavy and gas-guzzling SUVs, so they've also downsized from their ridiculously big, heavy, eat-for-three WBs. Just makes economic sense, and the smaller, more athletic models are WAY more nimble, easier to house, and accumulate fewer dings.

[foursocks]

Dixon- your post made me guffaw- my TB eats more than any of the WBs in the barn, gets a new cut on himself every day, and is so high maintenance I feel like renaming him "Super Princess." I *wish* he was a cheap keeper! :lol:

Honestly, WBs *were* a fad. I remember when it started- around the same time those stupid puke-green TS's came in, in the mid-80s. At first a lot of judges hated the larger movement, the dressage-y collected frame, etc. But it became the fashion to have an import and they have dominated the shows since then. I think things are evening out a little again- and a fancy horse who looks the part has always been a contender.

The hunter ring is awash with fads- anyone who denies it is nuts or naive or both. Perhaps the days when someone wouldn't look at a TB to buy and only wanted to see WBs are waning a little, but the judges judge what is in front of them and when all they see are WBs, that is what wins. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, and one that didn't exist until the WB fad began.

I don't care one way or the other- I care about the jump and the canter. If I can get something with both in a cheaper package that maybe require more time and work, fine, I'll take it.

[vineyridge]

Just a point of information--

Except for the Trakehner people who used arabs as well as TBs on top and the RID people, 99.9 percent of all Western European WBs, male and female, trace back in tail male (top pedigree line) to a Thoroughbred. You may have to go way back to find the TB on top, but it's there.

[Jumphigh83]

Passing on a horse because of its breed is like not hiring someone because they are black (or asian or middle easterner or insert race here) It is a horsie form of racism. I agree with whomever said you cant have a bad breed on a good horse. A lot of people would be VERY surprised about the "breed" of their horse! And since the vast majority of these horses are GELDINGS who CARES? Maybe these horses should be judged on the content of their character rather than on the paperwork on their family tree???!!!

[LookinSouth]

[quote=Hauwse;3879835]But the bottom line is that without TB infusion WB's as we know them today in the ring would cease to exist, take away the TB bloodlines and you will soon be producing cart horses and eventually plow horses again, a slight exaggeration but they would lose their athletic ability eventually.

So the TB never really left we just don't always give them the credit they deserve when it comes to WB breeding registries. In my book if I take a 65% KWPN and breed it to a TB I am basically producing a TB. The fact that I cannot register it as a TB, but can as a KWPN is all part of the perception that WB's dominate in the H/J ring.


Exactly. I find it rather humorous when I meet a "WB" owner and then come to find out the horse is 1/2 or even in some cases 3/4 TB yet the person prefers "warmbloods".
Maybe it's just me but I have a heck of time distinguishing between a well fed, evenly built, muscled TB versus the same in a WB.



I am more likely to buy the 3yo that was too slow growing, or failed to exhibit the speed necessary to run at a young age or was tested a few times as 3yo and sold off as a 4yo.


yep. there are plenty of good TB's out there that have yet to be discovered and are far from being used up.

I really like the way a WB/TB cross looks but I am not foolish enough to fall for the automatic price increase just for the "WB" factor that so often is the case, even for greenies/unbroke. If you look around and you have an eye for good conformation, temperment and movement you can very easily find a horse of equal quality in the TB or the Appendix.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Dixon- your post made me guffaw- my TB eats more than any of the WBs in the barn, gets a new cut on himself every day, and is so high maintenance I feel like renaming him "Super Princess." I *wish* he was a cheap keeper! :lol:

Honestly, WBs *were* a fad. I remember when it started- around the same time those stupid puke-green TS's came in, in the mid-80s. At first a lot of judges hated the larger movement, the dressage-y collected frame, etc. But it became the fashion to have an import and they have dominated the shows since then. I think things are evening out a little again- and a fancy horse who looks the part has always been a contender.

The hunter ring is awash with fads- anyone who denies it is nuts or naive or both. Perhaps the days when someone wouldn't look at a TB to buy and only wanted to see WBs are waning a little, but the judges judge what is in front of them and when all they see are WBs, that is what wins. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, and one that didn't exist until the WB fad began.

I don't care one way or the other- I care about the jump and the canter. If I can get something with both in a cheaper package that maybe require more time and work, fine, I'll take it.

EXACTLY!

[Leez]

vineyridge

And then you have most competitive people, who want to sit on the winner.

That last group don't care if the horse is a thoroughbred or a mule so long as it looks the part and does the job. You can spend your life trying to please the first group and you never will because there's always something new that's trendy and everyone wants.


Totally agreed!

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Totally agreed!

Too bad VFX can't contribute that same statement to the QH argument! LOL, but yes I agree too.