Elevator Bits

[zahena]

Looking for a little advice here....

My horse is SUPER strong and when I first got him, a loose ring snaffle was fine. He jumped fine it and seemed to not mind stopping. Now that he's fit and in shape, he has little to no respect for the bit. I can stop him in it, but I seem to be the lone ranger who can. Of course, I'm the lone ranger at my barn on working with our problem children but that's a whole other post....

Lately he's been very strong and he pulls at it, like he has no respect. We've discussed going softer, but I think that's not the issue. The issue is no respect for the hands or the bit.

In talking with my trainer last night (I teach at a different barn but also take lessons as well) she suggested an elevator. Thoughts? I'm used to riding with a pehlam so I would probably do a 2 ring with 2 reins. I really just want him to hold himself back off the bit. At the trot, he's nice and light and if your hands are soft, he's soft. Same at the canter. It's the stopping power I'm really looking for.

[JumpWithPanache]

My mare naturally likes a light contact and goes quiet well, but can get testy about the brakes every now and again. I've used the elevator (two reins) on her to tune up the brakes in the past, but she tends to get too round and rolkur-ish after two or three rides. Lately it hasn't really helped with the brakes anyway, so I've switched into a corkscrew snaffle. She still goes around quite happily and softly, but doesn't test the brakes when I ask for the downard transitions and/or halts.

[Tiffani B]

Is there a way you can teach him to whoa from the ground with a verbal command, and then transfer that under saddle to body language?

I've found that a horse who disrespects a bit will learn to disrespect ANY bit you use, no matter how harsh, if the basics are not there to begin with.

Maybe you can use the stronger bit for one or two rides to break him out of his rut, kind of like a shock treatment, but I wouldn't rely on it long term. It sounds like he needs a round of "return to basics" and then probably a regular reminder lesson.

[zahena]

Well, he is vocally trained on the ground. He's actually a peach to lunge. He's super easy, trots on command, walks on command, halts on command. You can even say "change rein Bo" and he'll turn the other way.

Its under saddle that's the issue. I usually being with a lunge sesssion in side reins, sometimes lunge him over some ground poles, etc. It's under saddle that he gets uptight. He's fine as long as he's doing what he wants to do, trotting, cantering, walking so long as its HIS choice. It's when YOU decide you want to break gait that he gets testy.

He's actually nice to ride aside from the brakes issue. He's always pretty soft and round and light in the hand, he just bears into his forehand and ploughs away at the transition or raises his head and tries to run through your hand.

[Aven]

Just a quick thought.. if he is a peach to longe and used to be fine... Now that he is fit how is his saddle fit? I have found that not wanting to slow down can point toward a horse who's more muscled and is now filling up more of the tree than before.

If not then I would try a different snaffle first as an elevator has a very different effect.

[mvp]

An elevator will work, but it's more important that you understand why. An elevator encourages a horse to flex at the poll. Flexing at the poll places alone causes him to put more weight on his front end. The horse, not wishing to fall on his nose, then changes the rest of his body-- raising his shoulder and squatting on his hind end-- to stay upright.

So, your "brakes problem" really starts at the hind end. I think y'all need some dressage. If you teach him that he must engage his hind end to stop (and really to move at all), then he will stop with any bit. But he's got to be made strong enough through his hindquarters and back to do that.

In the worst case scenario, where the horse doesn't use his hind end, we eventually run out of "hardware" strong enough to encourage the otherwise downhill horse to rock back. That's all that a strong bit or one with leverage ever does.

Hope this helps,

-mvp

[zahena]

We actually just checked his saddle fit recently and found that he did need a different gullet, so we changed that out. He was fine again for awhile.

Honestly, a lot of this is just being fresh. And he's fresh all the time! He's just a high energy hot horse who needs lots of work. We're moving him to the back runs today so he has almost 100% turnout time instead of being in a stall 50% of the time and turnout 50%.

he actually has nice dressage work when he's with me. We have done a few CT's and he always scores nicely on that. He does know how to come soft and round and push from behind, it's just lately the braking is the issue. He's soft and round until you transition downward and then he locks his jaw and wants to run away. He just wants to be going forward. He just hasn't figured out that "forward" can also mean walk.....

[veebug22]

My mare naturally likes a light contact and goes quiet well, but can get testy about the brakes every now and again. I've used the elevator (two reins) on her to tune up the brakes in the past, but she tends to get too round and rolkur-ish after two or three rides. Lately it hasn't really helped with the brakes anyway, so I've switched into a corkscrew snaffle. She still goes around quite happily and softly, but doesn't test the brakes when I ask for the downard transitions and/or halts.

Well, is he round but just bearing down on you when you ask for the downward transition, or sticking his neck out and running through it? I tend to agree with JWP if it's the round but bearing down on you situation - I occasionally will use an elevator to tune up softness, but more to remind a horse to carry themselves and stay soft and round than for stopping power. Elevators give you leverage and don't let them stick their neck out and run through bit pressure, but for a horse that's already round and just clenching his jaw, he's just going to evade the bit by overbending. I've had a lot of success with corkscrews for stopping power. It may be helpful to go ahead and try an elevator for comparison, but I bet you'd have luck with a corkscrew -- something without leverage, but that they don't want to mess with either.

I also think it really helps to take a horse that doesn't respond to bit pressure back to the basics regarding a rider's weight. For example, my mare can go along quite softly, but when I first got her, if you asked her for a downward transition, she would tense up, stick her neck out, and run through her hands. In this situation an elevator WAS helpful, but more helpful was teaching her how to properly use her hind end during downward transitions and that when I shifted my weight back onto my seat bones, that meant she should shift her weight back too. I did this by doing lots of halts, sometimes halts and backs, and really rolled by hips back and tucked my seat when asking her for a halt. But I also really shifted my weight back onto my seat bones. When backing, I kept my weight back on my seat bones. I did a lot of bareback work so she could feel it. And as soon as she did what I wanted, I dropped her to the buckle, gave her a pat, made her stand, and then shifted my weight onto the center of my seat bones when I asked her to go forward. She figured it out pretty quickly, and now I barely have to touch the reins for a halt because as soon as I shift my weight, she knows to stop. I also worked a lot on half halt, and teaching her to understand that when I slightly shifted my weight back and used leg, that meant for her to come up underneath herself and engage the hind end more. All in all, she learned to associate weight and downward transitions with moving her weight onto her hind end, and that's what you'll need for a good halt. In order to run through a halt, they have to be too much on the forehand. The other thing is to remind YOURSELF to stay soft. Take the halt back to walk/halt transitions, and use as little pressure as you need to in order to get the job done. Escalate as needed. As soon as he gives, you give. It's easy to get into a pulling game, and you will lose. The more often you can give, the more he'll learn to seek that.

[veebug22]

If the braking issue has just come up recently, have you considered his hocks? Quite often if a horse that normally brakes nicely starts bracing, it's because he's uncomfortable in the hind end.

[findeight]

First off....understand some of them have good flatwork and all that and respond to whoa but they do get a little excited when the jumps go up. Sometimes you have to fix what happens at the fences at the fences, not the flat-same theories, different setting and more energy in that horse. They don't listen so good when they jump.

Not enchanted with the elevator, I don't think breaking at the pole is going to improve your brakes-may backfire and teach him to dump and get behind. Same thing with the pelham.

Might try a gag-which is what I like for this kind of thing.

Rotating bits has also always helped me keep mine listening. Try just something with more mouthpiece on it like a slow twist or corkscrew and switch with the loose ring, a gag and whatever else you might find hanging in the tackroom-keep em guessing. And that keeps them light and listening.

Also, be really firm about that halt. Do NOT let him drag you even if you have to turn into the wall...helps some of them to learn you mean it. Halt after a line or single and halt straight-if they go all the way and bump their heads on the wall...well, whose fault is that.

Get tougher with what you have on him.

[zahena]

We actually just had his hocks looked at and they are fine.

He'll just stick his nose out further and avoid the downward transition, once down to a lower gait, like a walk, you can drop to the buckle and he's fine. However, you can NEVER drop him to low to no contact at a trot or he'll break to a gallop and just gallop until he darned near drops. He just wants to canter canter canter or trot trot trot. I took him for an endurance trail ride and he can out trot a horse who is cantering! He has a monster stride.

He does come soft and round, he does push from behind and he is trained to listen to my seat to come downward, he just doesn't WANT to. I've tried the corkscrew. He didn't really think too much of it. Not much respect there either.....

I think he just needs something to give him shock treatment (whomever said that hit the nail on the head).

[Tiffani B]

IMHO he needs to be rewired. It sounds like he needs to learn the "western horse self carriage stop" lol.

I do it first first at the walk, then the trot and finally the canter. Make sure all gaits are purposeful and not lazy. A horse can tend to get lax when they realize you're doing a halting exercise.

Ride at the walk down the short wall of your arena. As you approach the corner, ride him INTO the corner. Do not pull back on the bit at all (except to steer him into the corner if necessary). Say whoa and sit deep with a relaxed leg and butt. Overexaggerate your seat. He will HAVE to stop or he'll walk into the wall.

After he halts, stand there relaxed until he lets out a big sigh and starts chawing on his bit. Then reverse and do it again.

Repeat until he is stopping himself when you apply your seat aids. You'll find (mostly at the faster gaits) when he stops HIMSELF that he starts to engage his hind end and releases the bit to do so.

Then do it on the long wall of the arena. This gives him a longer time period between halts to "forget" what you're doing.

Eventually you begin asking him further and further away from the corner. Then you take him off the rail and ask in random locations. Always at the walk. Once he has mastered this at the walk, start over at the trot.

He will learn to use his booty to stop himself, and not to grab the bridle. Grabbing the bridle is pointless because there's nowhere to go with it.

It can take many rides to do this if he's stubborn, but it's a worthwhile exercise.

I've taught a lot of horses with no "whoa" to stop relaxed and rounded using this technique. Sometimes I do it from the ground (long lining), it depends on the situation.

[findeight]

Yeah...I did Western for 20 years or so before switching, including Trail and a little Reining. You bet mine grow roots at whoa, I don't even need a bridle some days...

But not when they get excited jumping anything of any size or jumping courses. They can just turn you off and go deaf sometimes when they get going. They need a reminder a little more often then the Western horses do.

[zahena]

Truly, I'm a little nervous that if I aimed him at a fence with the intent of making him whoa at anything other than a walk, he'd jump it and be gone. He's not afraid of ANYTHING including jumps or size. He scares the *beep* outta me free lunging sometimes because I can see him sizing up jumping out of our arena.

I did western as well and find that it does have some practical applications to English as well. But working with a dead quiet QH versus a hot blooded TB is miles different.

He's headed to "the back" today with a run so he might be a little less fresh, despite his 5 day a week steady riding schedule!

[findeight]

Z, do you ever just let him work it out with a good gallop?

Sometimes that's all it takes. And they are certainly easier to stop if they want to whoa.

You may just have a healthy horse sick of the ring and full of energy in the early spring. BTDT. He is not going to listen at all. He needs to go open up somewhere, and not in turn out-they don't work hard enough left to their own devices.

Go gallop. Might surprise you how many problems that can "solve".

[zahena]

I actually do. He can out gallop my ability to ride him!!! I took him for a 3 hour endurance trail ride, all trot and gallop and he was looking for more trail. I had BLISTERS on my inner thighs from it all. He's nuts. And while we're out there he LOOKS for stuff to jump..... Little ditch, jumps it. Crack in the ground, jumps it, log, pulls to jump it!

Our facility has very minimal space so I do have him on the market and fairly quietly listed until we solve the stopping issue and then hopefully he can go somewhere where they have pasture turn-out.

Funny because on the ground he's a total love machine. Puts his head on your shoulder and leans, wants to give up kisses, but you get on him and he thinks he's the next Cigar or something! And he had 4 starts and sucked at all of them! LOL!

[SEPowell]

So you've ruled out all the physical issues... It sounds like he's having a good time and being naughty. I would not, however, go to an elevator. I'd stay in the snaffle and have a "come to Jesus" schooling with him. Simply tell him he is not allowed to run through the bit and make sure you make him stick with this rule in everything you do, including longing.

Depending upon how extremely he reacts I'd try one of the following:

The second he starts running through the bit say NO pull him down to a walk, then a halt, next back him and then walk forward and resume schooling until he starts to run through the bit again. Immediately repeat the above until checks himself if you say no. Once he gets this down during flatwork apply the same strategy to jumping. Start with small jumps.

You can also say NO and practically sit him down then make him walk forward, but be aware that he may rear or launch you if you're that harsh.

I'm very wary of elevators with fresh tbs because most tend not to like pressure on their poles and that may actually cause poor behavior to esculate. I don't even like to use pelhams.

[starkissed]

I use an elevator on my mare out foxhunting. It made a huge difference with her, before I just had a french link and our stopping power was very limited, especially when they were running and she was fit.

But I noticed that she was completely losing respect for her regular snaffle in all other aspects. So what I began doing is hunting her in the elevator(2 rings/2 reins) and hacking her and doing ring work with the snaffle.

I think its a good bit, because most of the time you can just use the big ring, and then when he starts lugging you around, you can put the leverage ring in action and just say "hey listen up" and go back to the snaffle ring.

But I think its best if you incorporate your regular mild bit during the weekly rides as well, so he doesn't become 'dull' to the new one.

[mvp]

Perhaps your horse is so smart that he has figured out when he needs to think and when he doesn't. It sounds like going forward is so mentally easy for him that he "checks out" at higher gaits.

What if you convinced him that he had no idea what was coming next, and had to wait for you to tell him? So he never gets to go too many strides without changing gait, direction, bend, whatever. Make it unpredictable, make it not make sense (i.e. counter flexing, leg yeilding away from the rail) until you feel him wait for you.

If his issue is mental, if he likes you, and if he is smart enough, he'll start to give you that "waiting" ride where you feel him carry himself as if to say, "What's next?" If he's not smart, this kind of mentally quick ride will scare him. If he's smart enough but not accustomed to taking so many orders in quick succession, he'll get angry at first, but that will go away as he realizes that he doesn't have enough brain cells to stay pissed and do what you are asking next all at the same time.

What do you think?

-mvp

[zahena]

Oh he's super smart. I call him the "thinking" horse because I have to think ahead of him all the time. Like we're heading to a jump, 5 strides out I have to be thinking about the other side of the fence because he's already jumped the jump in his pony brain too. I've worked with horses like him before and while I do enjoy them, it's exhausting too. All that thinking. Jeez, someone hand me a dead broke horse! LOL!

Funnily enough we had this conversation last night about that exact thing. I do try to make him change alot. Leg yeild/shoulder in/figure 8's, crossing the ring, change gaits constantly. He seems okay with it but lately he's just really like screw you lady! LOl! He's nicer to me, but to my students he's going to be off limits until we cure this.

He did just recover from a bought with ulcers and I think alot of this is just "yeah baby! i feel good!" And the weather has been nice here for awhile too so I think he's just got some spring fever.

We're trail riding Monday so I hope that helps too. He just needs to reset his brain a little.

[Tiffani B]

LOL I know what you mean about working a hot horse vs a QH. I have Saddlebreds :lol:. Sounds like he's going to be a challenge!

It can't hurt to try the bit - my horse works best when I change his bits up every few rides. The smoother bit keeps him feeling confident and bold and keeps him in the "lets go forward" mode, the harsher bit keeps him remembering who's in charge and not to pull on me. Switching them up keeps him fresh and always responsive.

But at the same time, use the days he's in the harsher bit to work on WHOA AND I MEAN IT so when he's not wearing it, you've still got some respect.

[zahena]

You know, I haven't really ever changed his bit in all the time I've ridden him. We did put him in a slow twist once and he was like pft, what is this mess? But I think he needs some different stuff.

I did have one horse who was HUGE and i started him in a double twisted wire because he was actually dead in his mouth and I found that riding in it for a few weeks and then changing to a simple D ring made all the difference. Once I sold him, you could've jumped him a 3' course in a halter. But he was pretty tame. His stable name was "Bullwinkle" if that tells you anything.

This horses name translated means drunk. God I wish he'd ride like it at least once! LOL!

[mvp]

I'm so glad you have a smart one. They're easier to train, I think, and infinitely more rewarding, especially if they are athletic enough to do all the fancy, quick stuff you can think of. That's a great horse.

So-- go trailriding the way a cowboy getting a young horse "ranch broke" would. Go outside and give him a ton to look at and think about. If he checks out, you "pull over" and do a small school on the trail until he is listening just about as well as he would in the ring. This is the part that might really piss him off, so be careful. He might think there are two sets of rules-- one for inside and one (or none) for outside, and not enjoy learning that they have changed.

In general, as he learns that his life gets (mentally) tougher when he doesn't wait on you like a butler, your schools can get shorter and less involved. Pretty soon, anywhere, anytime, you do something an minor as raise your inside rein, he thinks-- "Holy crap! There could be an entire dressage test coming next, I'd better listen up because it's about to get busy"-- and then you go back to the soft, cruising-along ride you had before.

I think this mentally involved ride is worth doing because it doesn't have to be physically tough on either of you. He's already proven that he is ready to work physically much harder than you (witness the endurance ride), so you need to think of something else. Assume that he doesn't want to spend his ride doing calculus problems, so the reward is that mentally undemanding ride.

In the end, you have to do almost nothing to have him check in with you. They great thing about doing this outside, is that you kill perhaps three birds with one stone. You invite him to make a mistake you'd like to correct by giving him many reasons to ignore you. You teach him that he must listen in any situation. You don't frustrate this smart, athletic, useful horse by trapping him in either equipment or an arena.


Hope you guys have a great time on monday!

-mvp

[islndgirl]

My horse is very strong to the jumps too - I flat him in a plain snaffle but i have tried a lot of different option for jumping... i tried an elevator with some success... a pelham backed him off way to much. I've had the most success with a Dring port (nothing too high). he seems to respect this when I ask him to whoa - but doesn't get totally offended by it being too severe as he did with a pelham and other twisted bits. We try to jump him in the plain snaffle when he is being good so we can save the port for the shows.