Hack question - about the canter

[tidy rabbit]

If the canter is weighted more heavily in the hack than the trot, why does everyone talk about the trot and I never hear a word about a horse having a nice canter here on COTH? Since the jump is an extension of the canter why is there never any discussion about how to get that perfect hunter canter on these boards?

With that said, please enlighten me as to what a great canter is for the hunters.

Thanks!

[fordtraktor]

You can improve a trot, but improving walk and canter is much more difficult. IME, it is very important and often heavily weighted, but harder to "work on."

[ExJumper]

Although it isn't often discussed this way, I've always been told (and read in books by GM and AW-M) that the canter and the walk are the best gaits to truly judge a horse by. I don't have a good enough eye to judge the walk. I think the trot is "easier" to judge, but not necessarily the best gait.

As far as the canter not getting mentioned, my trainer at least mentions it quite a bit. She would rather have us buy horses that canter well and she believes that a good canter translates into a good jump.

So in a nutshell, I'd say that while the trot may be flashier, the walk/canter is a better judge of a horse.

[Sing Mia Song]

Agreed. You can improve the trot, but not so much the canter.

My old (late) horse had a superlative canter. Long, flowing, just jaw dropping. His trot was like Charlie Chaplin's Little Hobo walk. :no: We would always, always canter before they called "You are now being judged" just to catch the judge's eye. Then we'd bury ourselves at the trot and flaunt it at the canter. He almost always got pinned, even against some really good movers at all three gaits.

I miss that horse.

[CBoylen]

A great canter is harder to find, and you can't really produce one. A great canter can also make a hack winner out of a horse that doesn't have the best trot in the class. It's definitely the more important gait, but you do get some judges who focus on the trot, and there is sometimes the chance in a big group that the horse will get passed over at the trot and therefore overlooked at the canter.
I think sometimes an astounding trot makes for a stiffer type canter, not the easy, flowing long step that is a truly fantastic hunter canter.

[tidy rabbit]

Thanks for the responses.

I would think that dressage work would help improve both the walk and the canter.

I'm really surprised by the lack of replies on this thread. I'm surprised because it seems that the majority of the posters here ride in the hunter divisions. I would think that they'd have some comments about how they work to improve their horses canter and certainly some comments from the trainers about this.

Also, if the canter is weighted more heavily than the trot in a hack by the judge, uhhhh I guess I don't understand Chanda's reply. I know CB that you would know these details, but I hear time and time again from various judges that the trot doesn't matter very much.

????

[kayfry]

I've shown hunters for years in the adults, and always have been perplexed by this. I think when people in the hunter world talk about a "great mover," they're almost always talking about the trot. That's what gets noticed in the under saddle classes. And yet, as has been said, the canter is much more closely related to the quality of the jump. And very often, a horse with a "10" trot is not the best jumper in the ring. I don't get it.

[jn1193]

Most judges I know (including me) do their intial "sort" based on the walk & trot and then use the canter to "make or break" where the horse is ultimately pinned. I have seen quite a few horses with really wonderful trots move down because their canter is awful. Mainly horses that are too on the forehand or are allowed to canter downhill instead of in a balanced manner.

I do think a canter can be improved by better balancing the horse and working on cadence and getting the horse to work more off the hind end.

Then there are the riders who are nervous about the canter and get rigid which causes the horse to shorten and stiffen or get off the bit - sometimes above, mainly behind.

[whbar158]

Like many have said is that the trot is a lot of the time flashier, and then stand out and if they have a pretty good canter they can win the hack. It is not like well if they have a great trot they will win or they have a great canter they will win, it seems that they need to be really really good at one and still pretty good at the other! This is also why you can get horses that pin well in the hack but don't always pin well over fences.

[I'm Dreamin]

Pick them at the trot, pin them at the canter. They don't trot the jumps...

[TheOrangeOne]

I have heard that "the other 4 classes judge the canter, the hack judges the trot". Is it right? probably not, but I suspect many judges feel that way.

[MHM]

I have heard that "the other 4 classes judge the canter, the hack judges the trot". Is it right? probably not, but I suspect many judges feel that way.

Not many judges I know.

The canter is the most important gait. They jump from the canter, except for maybe one jump in the handy. I make my final decision on the ribbon winners based on the canter. The walk and trot are both factors, but the canter is the deciding factor.

[TheOrangeOne]

I'm not saying I was talking to a good judge! (And not my trainer, for anyone who might know him) It just might explain some hack classes where it seems to be pinned totally off the trot.

[copper1]

When looking at youngsters, I look at their canter. The ones that cover the ground with a long and easy step are the ones that catch my eye. These usually also have a decent trot that can be improved. You need the gallop to get the jump!

[3rdrock]

Horses canter the jump. Hack classes are placed according to the trot, but should be pinned at the canter. You can have your top 8, then the best one picks up a canter, and paddles, leans, get strung out and should then drop below the horse that stays balanced and well behaved at the canter.

[scotchie]

It's the canter. I could always pick out a could trot and never gave the canter much thought-till I bought my horse. All I heard was how fab-o his canter was. My trainer (big R judge- just did WEF last week) said it's all about the canter. He says, (exactly as a poster said above) they don't trot the jumps. Trot is a tad above average, enough to get his number written down, as mentioned above. But when the canter comes, he rises up and clearly has a different movement than the others in the class. He wins, a lot. I loff that horse. Now, the interesting thing is that he does't pin as well at our small schooling shows. I would say that this is because the average local judge is more like the rest of us- finding the trot easier to pin on. We have some freakish trotters in our area, but with very average canters. They beat us at home but not away. I video'd his hack at Raleigh last month but I have no idea how to edit all the other rounds off of it and put it on U-tube. Is this even possible?

[Dirty Little Secret]

I've always gone with the saying ImDreamin said, 'pick em at the trot, pin them at the canter'. We do trot before we canter so if a horse has a terrible trot then it may not get another look. But as a rider, I look for a horse with a nice canter before one with a nice trot. My experience is that a horse that has a nice canter, usually has a nice jump.

[Trees4U]

I agree with I'm Dreamin. Well said...;) ;)

[fordtraktor]

On the improvement issue --

You can certainly improve a canter that is on the forehand, etc. But that is not really what we mean by improvement. Once the horse is off the forehand and in a balanced, soft canter, it is very difficult to improve the quality of the horse's natural gait/movement. On the other hand, you can do a lot improve the way the horse goes at the trot.

It is my understanding that most dressage trainers feel the same way about judging the natural quality of a horse by the walk and canter, because most trots can be improved.

Notice in the dressage arena how much the trot changes as a horse develops from training level to grand prix -- from forward and "huntery" to having major suspension. The canter is not very different, though of course a grand prix horse has more collection.

[findeight]

Sorry Tidy, not on in the evenings or I would have thrown my 2 cents worth in.

Not all judges do the same thing and, with the popularity of the WBs, IMO there is a little more emphasis on the trot with some judges.

I'm in the "can't do much with the canter" camp, they either have one or they don't. You can school them to relax and ride the class to their best advantage but you can't hide a choppy or uneven canter. You can push a trot out, work on a pretty "frame" and collect it a little, develop a level top line. But the canter is pretty much going to be what it is as far as quality of movement.

Take my mare. Since she has aged, she is a little hocky these days at the canter but still has a great trot. Some flat classes, I pin on top, these seem to be the ones where we trot alot and only canter, maybe, once around. Others we don't trot so much, canter alot more...and I am down in the pastels if anything at all. Oh...and if I do one of those opening passes as the class enters-I trot.

So, I guess weighting trot and canter in the hack varies with the judge's personal preferences.

Hunter folk do look for a great canter as a predictor of jump ability, much more so then the trot.

[Perfect Pony]

I hear this "you cannot improve the canter" stuff all the time. Funny thing is, my mares worst gait was her canter as a 4 year old. As a 6 year old my mare's most improved gait has been her canter. She has gone from "will she ever be able to canter a circle" to "wow, what a lovely canter". So, I do not know how much I believe this.

[findeight]

They can physically change as they mature, PP. They get balanced and all the little growth spurts even out.

Not because of anything we do other then keep them in a program.

[ExJumper]

I hear this "you cannot improve the canter" stuff all the time. Funny thing is, my mares worst gait was her canter as a 4 year old. As a 6 year old my mare's most improved gait has been her canter. She has gone from "will she ever be able to canter a circle" to "wow, what a lovely canter". So, I do not know how much I believe this.

This sounds like improved balance, not improved canter. Even the best moving baby probably isn't balanced enough to canter a circle :)

[Perfect Pony]

They can physically change as they mature, PP. They get balanced and all the little growth spurts even out.

Not because of anything we do other then keep them in a program.

Thing is, most trainers would have told me to not buy this horse based on her horrific canter. Years ago I had another mare who "got away" when I listened to a trainer who told me not to buy the 4 year old because of the canter, I still beat myself up over it. And I am thankful daily that I was patient and bought my current horse.

So I guess we have to be truly educated on what a "bad" canter is. It seems most people are not. I can tell you that it seems most professionals as well are not.

[fordtraktor]

Maybe the canter was horrific at that age, and maybe on the other horse it stayed that way. As findeight said, as horses grow their gaits can change.

I would not advise a client to buy a horse with a bad canter on faith that it will magically go away at 6. Sometimes that may happen (sounds like you have one that did) but generally not. And most reputable trainers don't like to speculate with the client's money and trust.

[M. Owen]

I would take the good, natural canter over the flashy trot any day. A question though. I always hear people say that a good walk is an indication of a good canter. My young horse naturally has a very good walk with four clear beats and a nice, big over reach with her hind legs. She really drives nicely off her hind end and has from day one.

Her canter on the other hand has taken a lot of work to develop to the point where she feels nice and balanced. Looking back over our progression, I think that a lot had to do with strength and balance, and that as those things have come along, the canter has improved immensely.

When looking at young horses, how do you judge the canter? Do you take the walk into consideration at all, and if yes, what about a walk tells you the nice canter is there some where? Finally, how would someone describe a nice canter?
For me, I describe a nice canter as having 3 clear beats, natural push from behind (rather than feeling like they pull themselves from the front end), a little up hill so you don't feel like they lug in the corners, and a nice regular rhythm- not scrambling at all.

[findeight]

Overstep/tracking up at the walk at least a full hoofprint ahead of the front print is something I have always used and it has always proved to be a good indicator...assuming they stay sound.

Seems not to vary much even through the awkward stages...seems like they either do or do not and they always will, or not.

Just means the basic skeletal angles of shoulder and hip allow a good size step and move smoothly.

It's worked for me. But, have to say, never looked under about a long yearling, even the QHs, so cannot speak to this working with the babies-but cannot see why it would be different.

[Peggy]

I've always joked that the hack classes were often pinned on the first trot. Not always true, I realize, but it sure seems that way sometimes from the back of a horse who has a correct, but too knee-y trot.

I first heard the statement about being able to fix the trot, but not the canter, from a dressage trainer who has a pretty good eye for a young horse. I've found that the walk-canter correlation sometimes works, but not always. Star had a negative overstep at the walk when he was three, but now has what our assistant trainer describes as a great canter. The walk also has an overstep. Maybe the negative overstep was related to his length? He was purchased, on the advice of said dressage trainer, largely for his brain and his canter. The walk got better with better balance (maturity) and work/time, which may have been the operational factor in PerfectPony's case. You can also ride a given canter to get more step and what the dressage people refer to as "jump" (hind end coming through).

[Portia]

There's a reason that dressage and the various breed registries consider the walk an extremely important gait. It is very difficult to improve so you see the horse's natural movelment. As others have said, it's the same with the canter, although for obvious logistical reasons the judges at breed inspections don't have the horses canter in hand.

With a young horse, you must look at their natural canter when free, not under saddle. Young horses do take time to develop a balanced canter under saddle. They have to adjust to the new weight and balance and develop the strength to carry themselves. Eventually they should get back to close to their natural gait that you see when they are free. Unless of course, the rider screws them up by holding them too short or by letting them get too long and on the forehand so they can't find their natural balance. The corollary to "you can't fix a walk or a canter" is "but you can sure ruin them."

We bought the REAL Portia as a coming-2 year old based largely on her walk and canter, as well as her hip and neck/shoulder angles. Her trot was never great because she is a bit toed-out, but her canter showed she had the rhythm, balance, and power a jumper needs. And we were right. :)

[LSM1212]

Silly me... I thought the hack was supposed to be judged on all 3 gaits!

Around here, we seem to trot more than canter. And definately do more going the opening way (to the left) than the right.

My guy has always pinned well in the hack. No lower than 3rd. But all local circuit stuff. Nothing rated.

His walk and canter were great when I bought him. His trot? Not so much. But I've worked really hard on improving his trot and now it's sooooo much better. Now we are having some small issues w/ the canter. Go forward, silly boy !!! He has taken to sucking back a bit and wanting to do that 4 beat thing. If I were doing more Dressage, his canter piroette (sp?) would be fabulous! He can pretty much canter in place or canter so slow that the ponies are passing us up at the w/t. Being in the indoor doesn't help. I think he's clausterphobic like me! But we are getting there.

Of course, when he's in company, he steps it up a notch. He knows when it's a show and he loves to "show" off. I think he just can't be bothered at home. :lol:

[Perfect Pony]

I always hear people say that a good walk is an indication of a good canter. My young horse naturally has a very good walk with four clear beats and a nice, big over reach with her hind legs. She really drives nicely off her hind end and has from day one.

Her canter on the other hand has taken a lot of work to develop to the point where she feels nice and balanced.

Funny you bring this up. I bought my mare's walk. She was only weeks under saddle and could hardly trot under saddle, let alone canter, but she had (and still has) a walk I could ride all day long (really smooth and swinging through her back with a large overstep). Maybe the walk is the true gait to judge a young horse by.

[MintHillFarm]

Yes, the trot can catch one's eye but the canter is the gait that we jump out of.
When I judge, I will get an impression at the walk and start to make a list before we trot. I do feel at times that the walk is the forgotten gait in under saddles. Time is often the reason and the flat classes can sometimes be rushed. I am of the opinion that a horse that has a good walk will usually have a good canter...I know the race horse folks feel the same way. I also like the rider to sit in the saddle at the canter rather than ride in a half seat. I feel the horse should be happy to accept the rider's seat.

[CBoylen]

Thanks for the responses.
Also, if the canter is weighted more heavily than the trot in a hack by the judge, uhhhh I guess I don't understand Chanda's reply. I know CB that you would know these details, but I hear time and time again from various judges that the trot doesn't matter very much.

I'm obviously being unclear, but I'm not sure how to correct myself. I don't think you can really say the trot doesn't matter very much. It still matters, it's just not the deciding factor. In my reply, I factored in that there are all sorts of judges with all sorts of opinions, and the fact that when you have a big group in a hack class, and of course you trot them before you canter them, a really good canter might get overlooked just because the horse didn't stand out at the trot and is off the judge's radar. So there are times where the different gaits factor in differently.

I have a horse now that's won a lot of hacks, and he's not too thrilling at the trot, but has a lovely canter. But you can definitely tell which judges emphasis which gait by where he ends up in the order.
Rox Dene too was usually first or second in the hack, and wasn't an fabulous trotter, but had probably one of the best canters ever seen.

[Portia]

Rox Dene too was usually first or second in the hack, and wasn't an fabulous trotter, but had probably one of the best canters ever seen.
And one of the best jumps. :)

Coming from jumperland, I am amazed how much difference there was in my young guy's placings in the hack just from changing from steel to aluminum shoes. At his first A show in the pre-greens, in good company, he didn't place in the hack. In the next A show, after changing shoes and in just about exactly the same good company, he won, and has consistently placed highly since then.

[tidy rabbit]

This has been most informative! Thanks for all the replies. I'm starting to understand it a little better now.

I've got a coming 3 y.o. who I think is a lovely mover and I'm thinking that he might be one to head to the hunter ring. So, I'm trying to get a bit more educated about how these things actually work. :)

[MHM]

Also remember the horse's expression can be a factor. A decent mover with a sweet, kind manner can sometimes beat a better mover that constantly pins its ears and cranks its tail.

[tidy rabbit]

Also remember the horse's expression can be a factor. A decent mover with a sweet, kind manner can sometimes beat a better mover that constantly pins its ears and cranks its tail.

Of course! Fortunately for me, all mine wear the expression of "Where is my peppermint? Do you have it? "

[Perfect Pony]

Rox Dene too was usually first or second in the hack, and wasn't an fabulous trotter, but had probably one of the best canters ever seen.

Oh I'd love to see that, any video online??

(sorry, couldn't resist...) :uhoh:

[Personal Champ]

This past fall I bought a horse for one of my students who has a FABULOUS canter. Her trot has a touch too much knee, but is still above average.

The kid goes, "but what about the knees at the trot?"

My reply: "You canter the course, don't you?? We'll trot 3 steps into the gate, pick up the 10+ canter, and no one will ever notice..."

[dogchushu]

Silly me... I thought the hack was supposed to be judged on all 3 gaits!

Around here, we seem to trot more than canter. And definately do more going the opening way (to the left) than the right.


Well, for all people say about what the walk means, I've never walked much in a hack. Pretty much, we walk until the class filled and the judge takes down all the numbers. Then off to the trot we go!

Like you, we spend more time at the trot than the canter. That could be because the judge is already winnowing out the crappy movers and has fewer to keep an eye on during the canter.

Don't know why we seem to give the right short shrift. I suspect a judge doesn't want to lose her winners. But it seems like we go for an endless trot around to the left. A bit of canter. Then reverse and wham! bam! through the trot and canter (again the walk is only for a few strides) and into the line up we go!

[scotchie]

Mr. Trainer the Judge says it *should* be judged 40% on the trot and 60% canter. If you have a judge who really can't pick a good canter movemen then you will get a pinning that uses the better trot. If the judge is good then those with the better canter/good trot will pin over those with the better trot/good canter. :yes:

He also says that they DO look at the walk/what you are doing defore they officailly call the class. They aren't judging, but just scanning to see what catches their eye. That is why you will see the pros (who also judge and know the scoop) do a lap or so at the horse's best gait. He says ride the class from the moment you go through the gait. If you walk, make it a good, working walk, not a sleepy amble as you wait for stragglers to come in.

[ShaSamour]

When I judge, I will get an impression at the walk and start to make a list before we trot. I do feel at times that the walk is the forgotten gait in under saddles. Time is often the reason and the flat classes can sometimes be rushed. I am of the opinion that a horse that has a good walk will usually have a good canter...I know the race horse folks feel the same way. I also like the rider to sit in the saddle at the canter rather than ride in a half seat. I feel the horse should be happy to accept the rider's seat.

I seem to remember Victor Hugo Vidal writing a "Between Rounds" column that lamented the walk as the forgotten gait. It's something that has stayed with me for years.

I just got a new mare in the fall (green-broke 16-year-old Oldenburg -- long story...) and right from the get-go, I was amazed by her walk. Long, relaxed, forward without dragging you anywhere... I say she walks with a purpose. And the canter, now that we've gotten her balanced and relaxed, is a WOW. Just like the walk -- long, relaxed, forward without dragging, and very rateable. And comfortable! No half-seat here. I guess I was born lucky...

I can't wait to get her to her first show in the spring...

[meupatdoes]

I always say, "You can't fake a walk."

The trot is the gait you can improve, the canter is the gait that pretty much what you see is what you get, and the walk is the gait you can royally eff up.

[see u at x]

I always say, "You can't fake a walk."

The trot is the gait you can improve, the canter is the gait that pretty much what you see is what you get, and the walk is the gait you can royally eff up.

This is pretty much what all of my dressage instructors have told me. When I bought my QH, I had no clue that she was such a nice mover. I just wanted to trail ride and learn reining. :lol: Then I had an FEI dressage rider ask me why I wasn't doing dressage with her. I was like, "Huh? Are you kidding?" Turns out that my little 15h hony has a phenomenal walk...she can actually overstep better than my 16h TB! And she really can move out nicely at whatever gait. Both of them have very nice canters as well, and their trots are good...very comfy, but not with the reach you might prefer to see. The TB definitely has more suspension and impulsion at the trot, and my friend jokes that the QH would be a daisy cutter if only she were a 16h TB. :lol: Oh, well...can't always have everything I guess.

Regarding what someone said about actually sitting the canter instead of being in half seat, IIRC, a friend of mine who attended a GM clinic in Leesburg last fall mentioned to me that GM said a lot riders sit down in the saddle too quickly following their jump. He said that there are 3 times you should be sitting in the tack: when the horse is walking, when you're sitting the trot, and at the canter. Granted, this is hearing it secondhand, but if that's the case, shouldn't more people be sitting the canter during flat classes instead of doing all that half seat stuff?

[J. Turner]

Don't know why we seem to give the right short shrift. I suspect a judge doesn't want to lose her winners. But it seems like we go for an endless trot around to the left. A bit of canter. Then reverse and wham! bam! through the trot and canter (again the walk is only for a few strides) and into the line up we go!

Going left is my bugaboo. I wish we started right. I hate left!

That being said, my old hunter did not have a nice trot. However, he had a lovely canter. Certain judges would pin him (Brian Lenehan really liked him.). Occassionaly he even got a ribbon in big classes!

[foursocks]

I've owned two horses who had good movement at all three gaits, and two with crappy trots and a wonderful, wonderful walk and canter. All four jumped well, but I would not have bought any of them if their canters weren't excellent from the start. My current guy is a jumper and would be horrified to find himself in a hack class, but his walk is unbelievable. I call it his power walk- it is huge, loose, swinging, gorgeous. I always joke that I get my core exercised just by walking him on the buckle as he marches around.

His canter is amazing, and even when he lacked any sort of topline it was incredibly balanced. I could canter him all day- which he would like! His trot began as simply gross, but with topline development and a lot of jumper dressage there are some days when it is decent- maybe a 6 or even a 7 on a super-special hot day when he wants to play hunter.

The best movers/hack winners in our barn have varying qualities of trot, but all have good walks and great canters.