Examples, explanation of "daisy clipper"

[Foxdale Farm]

I'm a dressage rider, but I own a stallion that people breed to for everything, including Hunter. I've heard the term "daisy clipper" before in reference to the ideal movement for horses in Hunter competition. Can anyone explain or provide video examples of what this means or looks like? What is it about this type of movement that Hunter judges consider to be ideal? Or am I referring to an outdated idea?

Thanks in advance!

www.foxdalefarm.us

[fordtraktor]

I think you mean "daisy cutter". It reference the type of movement with very little knee action -- i.e. the horse doesn't pick up its feet high enough to even clear the grass, so it is "cutting the daisies."

A good hunter mover will have this type of sweeping trot, but still have a lot of reach. It has little resemblance to the type of movement considered good for a dressage horse, so I always wonder when I see a stallion advertised as producing dressage and hunter movement. If so, his movement must not be particularly prepotent!

[Filly85']

I'm a dressage rider, but I own a stallion that people breed to for everything, including Hunter. I've heard the term "daisy clipper" before in reference to the ideal movement for horses in Hunter competition. Can anyone explain or provide video examples of what this means or looks like? What is it about this type of movement that Hunter judges consider to be ideal? Or am I referring to an outdated idea?

Thanks in advance!

www.foxdalefarm.us

My grey horse is a daisy cutter. People talk like it is a bad thing, but he would almost always win the hack classes.

He is the grey in this video. You'll have to fast forward it to the end of the video to see him moving, but there are pictures of him scattered throughout the video if you want to watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJOgl6ois9U&feature=channel_page

[ZIL]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wL0G0-wBY)is a video of Cabardino, which is a good example. There is also some footage of the flat class, where there are several horses that are also daisy cutters but don't seem to be able to match Cabardino's length of stride.

[MLP]

I think you mean "daisy cutter". It reference the type of movement with very little knee action -- i.e. the horse doesn't pick up its feet high enough to even clear the grass, so it is "cutting the daisies."

A good hunter mover will have this type of sweeping trot, but still have a lot of reach. It has little resemblance to the type of movement considered good for a dressage horse, so I always wonder when I see a stallion advertised as producing dressage and hunter movement. If so, his movement must not be particularly prepotent!

This isn't always the case. I have a very good moving horse out of a dressage stallion. Knee action is not good in dressage, maybe more extenstion from the shoulder and more hock action is acceptable but dressage horses can be good hunter movers.

[farmgirl88]

Heres my mare i just sold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNhufz3QpM0

[fordtraktor]

This isn't always the case. I have a very good moving horse out of a dressage stallion. Knee action is not good in dressage, maybe more extenstion from the shoulder and more hock action is acceptable but dressage horses can be good hunter movers.

Sure, sometimes a dressage horse produces a hunter -- but if the horse is an exceptional dressage mover it will not be an exceptional hunter mover. If a stallion is producing both one normally looks to the mare to see what she is adding.

Consider Quaterback, a horse the dressage world is ga-ga over. He's lovely, but far from a hunter. Not saying he couldn't produce one, but that is not what people hope for when they breed to him.

[MLP]

Sure, sometimes a dressage horse produces a hunter -- but if the horse is an exceptional dressage mover it will not be an exceptional hunter mover. If a stallion is producing both one normally looks to the mare to see what she is adding.

Consider Quaterback, a horse the dressage world is ga-ga over. He's lovely, but far from a hunter. Not saying he couldn't produce one, but that is not what people hope for when they breed to him.

So I'm confused. Why? What about Dressage is not acceptable in hunters. I think Dressage ALLOWS more knee action than hunters but in either case a free shoulder with suspension is good. I think with that you can still get the daisy cutter movement, that's more how they point the toes and don't pick up the knees, they can still have great shoulder movement and suspension. So what about a great dressage horse makes it not a good hunter?

[fordtraktor]

Do you really think this is ideal hunter movement? Please explain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa7cTjlvA8

[MLP]

Sure, sometimes a dressage horse produces a hunter -- but if the horse is an exceptional dressage mover it will not be an exceptional hunter mover. If a stallion is producing both one normally looks to the mare to see what she is adding.

Consider Quaterback, a horse the dressage world is ga-ga over. He's lovely, but far from a hunter. Not saying he couldn't produce one, but that is not what people hope for when they breed to him.

Also, you are giving an example of good dressage NOT being good hunter. I am saying that a good hunter CAN BE a good dressage. I think the hunter world is the one that's more stringent, NOT the other way around.

[MLP]

Do you really think this is ideal hunter movement? Please explain!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa7cTjlvA8

No too much knee action however again I say, it doesn't proven that a horse with good hunter movement wouldn't be a good dressage horse. You are just proving that not every good dressage horse has good movement. Suspension is more but it doesn't mean you can't have suspension with daisy cutting movement, one is the shoulder action, the other is the knee action. So to say anyone who promotes a stallion like that has an inferior product is not really telling the whole side. Hunter folks are stricker but I am SURE there are horses that can do both well.

[fordtraktor]

I'm not talking about "good" I'm talking about "exceptional." The kind of suspension that an exceptional dressage mover has is not ideal in hunters, where low and ground-covering is considered ideal.

Sure, just about any nice hunter could do very well in the lower levels of dressage, and I'm sure there are some lower-level dressage horses that would do just fine in your average hack class. But the ideal dressage horse and the ideal hunter are different types of horses.

[dags]

We're all over the place here!

First, I don't think I've seen a true daisy cutter yet. Lots of good movers, but a really daisy cutter seems to lack any joint at all from elbow to pastern. Check the pony ring, they seem to excel at producing daisy cutters.

On to the dressage/hunter movement discussion . . . any decent hunter likely has an inherent amount of suspension to it's movement, but that suspension is not developed like it would be in a dressage horse. Throw a 3 yo hunter prospect and a 3 yo dressage prospect on the line and you'll see two horses that move pretty much the same in terms of carriage and suspension. The only difference is the flat-kneed moving one has a chance in both arenas, whereas the one with knee action will be limited to dressage (or the B circuit :)

I think upper level dressage horses end up with more knee action because what else are they gonna do with their legs while they're up in the air all that time, holding the suspension required for their movements? A flat-kneed piaffe would just look weird. Take Blue Hors Matine, I personally think this horse is a lovely mover, and had it not had "elevate, elevate, elevate!" drilled into its head for 7 years it would probably be a hack winner at Devon!

(ps- thanks for the excuse to watch the '06 WEG freestyle. Again. I cried, again!!!)

[Filly85']

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wL0G0-wBY)is a video of Cabardino, which is a good example. There is also some footage of the flat class, where there are several horses that are also daisy cutters but don't seem to be able to match Cabardino's length of stride.

Wow, from the way people talked on here, I never knew that he used his knee.

[Filly85']

We're all over the place here!

First, I don't think I've seen a true daisy cutter yet. Lots of good movers, but a really daisy cutter seems to lack any joint at all from elbow to pastern. Check the pony ring, they seem to excel at producing daisy cutters.

On to the dressage/hunter movement discussion . . . any decent hunter likely has an inherent amount of suspension to it's movement, but that suspension is not developed like it would be in a dressage horse. Throw a 3 yo hunter prospect and a 3 yo dressage prospect on the line and you'll see two horses that move pretty much the same in terms of carriage and suspension. The only difference is the flat-kneed moving one has a chance in both arenas, whereas the one with knee action will be limited to dressage (or the B circuit :)

I think upper level dressage horses end up with more knee action because what else are they gonna do with their legs while they're up in the air all that time, holding the suspension required for their movements? A flat-kneed piaffe would just look weird. Take Blue Hors Matine, I personally think this horse is a lovely mover, and had it not had "elevate, elevate, elevate!" drilled into its head for 7 years it would probably be a hack winner at Devon!

(ps- thanks for the excuse to watch the '06 WEG freestyle. Again. I cried, again!!!)

I can't believe that you don't think my grey horse is a daisy cutter. I don't know how many people have told me that he is. He moves straight out from his shoulder, and his canter is huge! It is definitely better than his trot. He doesn't have nearly the knee action that a horse like Cabardino does! The people on the dressage forum said that my horse was a daisy cutter as well. Of course, I was also told that this horse didn't have any dressage ability by the people in the dressage forum, but he has already won training level classes. Oh well.

I think that this horse and my horse are as close to getting to the daisy cutter you describe as it gets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZPBzFRS-h0

My horse in photos at the trot because I just realized that the video link won't work anymore.

The other horses that I saw in this thread didn't hit the ground with a flat knee. They used their shoulder and their knee. A daisy cutter moves low to the ground and hits the ground with a flat knee. At least, that's what I've always been told, but it could be different in different areas.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h73/kentuckyrosesinmay/l_e8dd51b1e0bf23a9fc175ea4dfee1a2d.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h73/kentuckyrosesinmay/l_52c3c1ea181cd16311180012fee72be7.jpg

[europa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

[naters]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12


I am drooling over that horse!!!! Loff him!!!

[Filly85']

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

That horse uses his knee too much and has too much suspension.

[RW06]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

THAT is a true daisy cutter, definitely the best example so far.

[gypsymare]

We're all over the place here!
On to the dressage/hunter movement discussion . . . any decent hunter likely has an inherent amount of suspension to it's movement, but that suspension is not developed like it would be in a dressage horse. Throw a 3 yo hunter prospect and a 3 yo dressage prospect on the line and you'll see two horses that move pretty much the same in terms of carriage and suspension. The only difference is the flat-kneed moving one has a chance in both arenas, whereas the one with knee action will be limited to dressage (or the B circuit :)


What she said!! You want a big scopey suspended trot with sweeping low strides for hunters and you need it to be natural. Once dressage training progresses to ask the horse to work more off his haunches and bring his front end up the movement starts to change and can look like those more extravagant movers because they already have the natural suspension and power.

I think hunters have started to progess (regress?) even more to favor low-headed horses and that does not lend itself well to producing horses that can rock back on their hocks with ease like a horse with a more natural, higher neckset to perform those higher level tests.

All this being said, the breed show hunter world is a whole 'nother story... I'm not gonna go there.

[Filly85']

THAT is a true daisy cutter, definitely the best example so far.

No it's not. Look at the suspension and the knee action. A daisy cutter does not use it's knee. A horse that uses it's knee like that one will not win a class that I am judging unless it has the biggest stride by far in the class. The influx of WB breeding has caused the hunter world to get way too dressagy in my opinion. I'm old school. I like a flat moving horse without knee action.

[farmgirl88]

There comes a point though when its just exagerated..too much. Europa- the hors eyou posted i believed was one of scott stewarts? Very lovely animal...but it just seems so exagerated. That i will say, is NOT common in the horses. Ponies...yes-very common...perhaps its the arab blood.

To me- a horse with a daisy cutter has to bend its joints at some point.... Its not all abotu the front end either. people tend to get lost in the front end.

A daisy cutter should have suspension in the hind end, power, pushing forward, while propeling the front end to look as if its "cutting Daisies". It should look fluid, comming from the shoulder, little knee action, and low to the ground.

Its the overal picture too...not just the legs. A horse who is relaxed through its topline moves a lot better than one thats tense and uptight in the neck and back,

[fordtraktor]

How can a horse be a "daisy cutter" if it is floating above the daisies? :lol:

The concept of hunter movement being long and low, along with the term "daisy cutter," came into fashion because most hunters used to be TBs who did move like that. The modern trend is moving away from rewarding the old school daisy cutter, though no one can deny that horses like CP are beautiful movers.

[pony grandma]

There are other factors to this daisy cutter kind of movement. The overall movement should be quiet and sweepy. And show naturally balanced cadence. You're not riding the balance into the horse as a dressage contact does.

We have a TB mare that is the definitive of daisy cutter. She swaps leads down in the grass and you barely notice them she is so quiet about it. She hangs her tail down so relaxed that it sways between her back legs with her movement. It's stunning and oh, so feminine.

It's a real fooler, I didn't see the impulsion at first. She scored high on impulsion in all of her dressage tests.

I was surprised that she could even pick up her feet to jump! But she is superlative at also picking up her legs and has knees that draw up high and perfectly even. Nothing ever looks like an effort with her (so add effortless to the list of impressions that this kind of movment makes). Her personality is also that quiet, her ground manners are perfection.

But she is not an easy ride. She is very forward and quick also. I cannot put just anyone on her. She doesn't like anyone who hangs on her. Everything about her fools people. I had a German lady (who had never ever ridden a TB before) come ride here and she looked at her from the ground and was very sceptical to say the least. Then she rode her and the amazement was fun. She was thrilled with the mare's sensitivity and the back relaxation. She couldn't believe how naturally balanced the horse was.

[dags]

That horse uses his knee too much and has too much suspension.

I don't know what else to say, you don't really seem to care about anyone else's opinion. The chestnut in that link is the closest thing to a daisy cutter we've got on this thread . . . that thing is a hack winner. Anywhere.

Note how the entire topline of the horse seems to stay in one place while his four legs swing in diagonals beneath him . . . like they are seperate entities entirely . . . note the extra flip of the toe . . . the lack of bend in the fetlock all the way through the step . . . just enough suspension to truly move from the shoulder with a flat knee and not trip and fall, but not so much that the gait is hard or tiring to sit. That is a daisy cutter. There's another thread on here somewhere . . .

[farmgirl88]

thats where the debate over warmbloods an True hunters come in. A lof the warmbloods you see in the arenas today...are...well...warmbloods. They're big and heavy and they have very lofty and suspended trots. they may cover a lot fo ground and make it look effortless and beautiful to watch....but they are not quite what a true hunter should be

You watch any good thoroughbred who is a hunter with good shoulder, and you will see a daisy cutter. long...low...relaxed..but covering ground and making it look pretty.

[norolimasfaloth]

A GOOD dressage horse has natural reach like this
http://www.oldenburghorse.com/images-success/Albano.jpg

Height / Suspention is taught with training, strength and having the freedom. QB has a horrible extended trot.. Sorry exaduration, He'll loose marks in ext trot and gain in everything else with height.

A GOOD hunter
http://www.fourstarequestrian.com/images/damaris.jpg

The term good is used too lightly.. Moderate stallions can produce okay movement in different disaplines if you want an okay horse. Most stables accept okay horses in both dressage and hunter. Otherwise you have to go to Euroupe and get a GOOD horse for Hundreds of Thousands of dollars. Competing nationally, you may have a 'good' horse because you get 70's and win with that.. Sure.. Competing agence other okay horses. Thats why 90% of the Dressage world in Canada AND the states is horrifing compaired to Germany and Neatherlands.

[ExJumper]

And this is why people think we don't care about the canter.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=190018

I find it interesting to compare these threads. I'm also curious to see how these excellent trotters canter. (Can't watch videos at work, so I'm not sure if any of the clips include cantering as well.)

We need a phrase to refer to a horse that canters very well. If "daisy cutter" is a good trot, what should we call a good canter??

[europa]

All I have to say if that isn't a daisy cutter then I don't want you judge any classes I am in because you know not of which you speak. That is Scott Stewart's horse and I believe he is a hack winner everywhere he goes!

Also Westporte is a fine example ....click on the video in the middle of the page of trotting in hand. LOVELY

http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/stallion.htm

[farmgirl88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER4ZurujluA

One of my all time fav. thoroughbreds for sale right now. hes on bill schaubs site:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57tpV94oQQQ

[norolimasfaloth]

To add.. Hunters/equs are hunters/equs, dressage horse is a dressage horse and if it doesn't fit in those two then It's eather a show jumper or a feild pony. lol

P.s. By feild horse I mean a horse that can be turned out into large paddocks for any length of time with no leg protection and we love them and compete with them for fun. :) And they lead a happy, not overly compeditive life. Unless of course you're fooled into the idea it has good confermation lol

I resent the stewards after what the family did to Ainsley Vince

[DMK]

I agree - that horse Scott is on is a great mover and as close to a daisy cutter as we have seen on this thread. I think you can see a slightly different variation on it on some more TB types. It's still all the things talked about here, but usually a hair less suspension. To me they are both daisy cutters though. A moment of suspension ... or not ... doesn't take away from the basic idea that the daisy heads are getting mowed off by toes and that this horse is efficient in how he covers the ground. Quaterback? Beautimous and droolworthy. But efficient? Not so much.

BTW, to me Cabardino is not a great mover although he is very athletic. And I say this with all the love in my heart as he is simply head and shoulders (knees and toes! :D ) above the current or recently retired stallions when it comes to the quality of his jump. But like most jaw dropping jumpers, he doesn't exactly take your breath away in the hack. ;)

[farmgirl88]

A GOOD dressage horse has natural reach like this
http://www.oldenburghorse.com/images-success/Albano.jpg

Height / Suspention is taught with training, strength and having the freedom. QB has a horrible extended trot.. Sorry exaduration, He'll loose marks in ext trot and gain in everything else with height.

A GOOD hunter
http://www.fourstarequestrian.com/images/damaris.jpg

The term good is used too lightly.. Moderate stallions can produce okay movement in different disaplines if you want an okay horse. Most stables accept okay horses in both dressage and hunter. Otherwise you have to go to Euroupe and get a GOOD horse for Hundreds of Thousands of dollars. Competing nationally, you may have a 'good' horse because you get 70's and win with that.. Sure.. Competing agence other okay horses. Thats why 90% of the Dressage world in Canada AND the states is horrifing compaired to Germany and Neatherlands.


Im sorry but the photo you used to protray a good example of a hunter is not so. Thats more of an EQ horse. too heavy looking, not enough reach, too short of a stride...and way to much going on with the frame and tightness in the back

[jetsetter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

Now that is quite the toe pointer. Would it be acceptable to use the term tow pointer and daisy cutter interchangeably?? Everytime I hear the word daisy cutter I think of those crazy western pleasure horses. For me daisy cutter has a negative connotation attached to it. That could be due to the short (and I mean very short) stint I had in the western world.

[MLP]

I agree - that horse Scott is on is a great mover and as close to a daisy cutter as we have seen on this thread. I think you can see a slightly different variation on it on some more TB types. It's still all the things talked about here, but usually a hair less suspension. To me they are both daisy cutters though. A moment of suspension ... or not ... doesn't take away from the basic idea that the daisy heads are getting mowed off by toes and that this horse is efficient in how he covers the ground. Quaterback? Beautimous and droolworthy. But efficient? Not so much.

BTW, to me Cabardino is not a great mover although he is very athletic. And I say this with all the love in my heart as he is simply head and shoulders (knees and toes! :D ) above the current or recently retired stallions when it comes to the quality of his jump. But like most jaw dropping jumpers, he doesn't exactly take your breath away in the hack. ;)

The chestnut horse is definitely a hack winner in the best company but STILL it has suspension, which is my whole point. Good movement CAN have suspension. Maybe it is the influx of all the warmblood but I personally like the suspension with the flat knee, that I think is ideal movement. I didn't think the grey was all that of a spectacular mover either, even in the pictures. The other horse, doing the hunter round, has a nice canter and an amazing jump, that is what is going to make him champion in the hunters, he will get a piece of the hack but not the consistent winner. Of course every judge has their preference but I would say, Scott probably has one of the best eyes for what is out there winning in the hack classes. That chestnut is by far my favorite of any posted.

ETA. It may not be exactly what a daisy cutter is but it is definitely what is popular and pinning in the current hunter world.

[Montanas_Girl]

I think there is a fundamental issue we're ignoring here: "daisy cutter" and "good mover" are NOT one and the same. A horse can be an excellent mover and not a daisy cutter and vice versa.

Take my horse, for example. He's pretty darn close to a textbook "daisy cutter". He has almost no knee or hock action at the trot or canter. It makes him very comfortable and easy to sit on. However, he is not a "10" mover by hunter or dressage standards - he wins most of the time locally, but he does not have enough reach or suspension to play with the big dogs, unlike the Scott Stewart horse shown earlier in this thread.

Here is my guy:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31488153&l=d4d0e&id=52700902
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30139471&l=4bcfc&id=52700902

[Foxtrot's]

To my mind there is nothing like the classic American hunter - usually a TB ot TB type. Daisy cutter is the English term. Western describe it as flat kneed and their horses carry their necks parallel to the ground. I love the free relaxed movement of our hunters with the relaxed head carriage (not low, low) with big shoulder movement, pushing off the hind end with big easy steps.
When a horse is dressage trained, there is more contact, the neck set is higher and the knees are more like 'riding a bicycle'. My young horse is still green and can seem to go both ways, depending on how she is ridden. I favour her 'hunter' look. because she will never look like Quaterback, but she can come up, too.

[sansibar]

Super trooper or Emerson are definatly some of the best daisy cutters

Emerson
http://hunterponies.com/detail_older/emerson.htm
http://www.phelpsphotos.com/copyrightPhotos/52359.jpg

Super Trooper
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r461/sansibarsby/supertrooper.jpg?t=1234472018

[fordtraktor]

The chestnut horse is definitely a hack winner in the best company but STILL it has suspension, which is my whole point. Good movement CAN have suspension. Maybe it is the influx of all the warmblood but I personally like the suspension with the flat knee, that I think is ideal movement. I didn't think the grey was all that of a spectacular mover either, even in the pictures. The other horse, doing the hunter round, has a nice canter and an amazing jump, that is what is going to make him champion in the hunters, he will get a piece of the hack but not the consistent winner. Of course every judge has their preference but I would say, Scott probably has one of the best eyes for what is out there winning in the hack classes. That chestnut is by far my favorite of any posted.

ETA. It may not be exactly what a daisy cutter is but it is definitely what is popular and pinning in the current hunter world.

I think we are 100% in accord here.

That second picture of Emerson -- that is what I think of when I hear "daisy-cutter." Very nice.

[ponymom64]

My large pony is a pretty good example of a really nice mover - here is a video of him - it's long so you may only want to look at the first minute.......

http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g140/ponymom64/?action=view&current=Travisframe.flv

Ignore his headset as this was for someone who wanted to see him as a dressage prospect....

[Portia]

A good hunter mover will have this type of sweeping trot, but still have a lot of reach. It has little resemblance to the type of movement considered good for a dressage horse, so I always wonder when I see a stallion advertised as producing dressage and hunter movement. If so, his movement must not be particularly prepotent!
I've got to agree with the others -- many a good dressage sire can produce good hunters as well.

My young Hano gelding started out doing dressage and we kept showing him at some dressage shows even after we started jumping him and moved him into the hunters. He regularly got 8's on his gaits in training and 1st level dressage and won many of his classes, including at the championships. But we took the steel shoes off, put aluminum plates on, and now he wins the hacks in the pre-greens in good company at A shows. :)

The basics are still the same -- rhythmic, even, flowing movement with good length of stride and impulsion. The only real difference is preferred appearance of knee action at the trot - and it's not that dressage wants high knee action, just that they're willing to accept more of it than hunters -- and how those gaits are presented. Dressage develops and promotes suspension and expressiveness of gait, while the hunters want to leave it very natural and relaxed (if those are even the right words).

The Hanoverian stallion Granduell produced excellent dressage horses -- and a 1st year green circuit champion at Indio and Indoors. :)

[Filly85']

thats where the debate over warmbloods an True hunters come in. A lof the warmbloods you see in the arenas today...are...well...warmbloods. They're big and heavy and they have very lofty and suspended trots. they may cover a lot fo ground and make it look effortless and beautiful to watch....but they are not quite what a true hunter should be

You watch any good thoroughbred who is a hunter with good shoulder, and you will see a daisy cutter. long...low...relaxed..but covering ground and making it look pretty.

I agree wholeheartedly. The show ring has gone away from the true hunter.

They are not supposed to be dressagy. They are hunters. I am old school, taught by old school judges who like the flat moving type without the WB dressagy movement. That doesn't mean that I don't like a nice WB with real hunter movement.

Have people really gotten that confused about what a proper hunter is supposed to look like? I'm sorry. I'm not into the fads.

This is my idea of a 10 mover at the canter. The trot could be better. Notice how flat the horse moves and how it doesn't have any knee action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdiNc5pNbEs

Now, that is what a hunter is supposed to look like. A hunter is not supposed to have dressage like suspension.

I have a video that you all should watch...selecting hunters and jumpers by Rodney Jenkins. Watch the bay horse in that video move. The horse's name is R.S.V.P. Then watch horses like Simba Lu and The Wizard jump. Those horses are the standard.

Judges can only judge what you put in the ring.

[CBoylen]

BTW, to me Cabardino is not a great mover although he is very athletic. And I say this with all the love in my heart as he is simply head and shoulders (knees and toes! :D ) above the current or recently retired stallions when it comes to the quality of his jump.
Your phrase here cracks me up, because the thing that's always bothered me about him is that the back half doesn't jump like the front.

[Equino]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

I saw this recently and this was the 1st thing I thought of reading the thread! Lovely!

Not in the same league as Crown Point, but here's 2 pictures of my current project who I think is in the daisy cutter category:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30211061&l=0f6d5&id=1251447098
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30211055&l=0d1a1&id=1251447098

And WOW to Emerson and Super Trooper!!!

[fordtraktor]

Portia, I have certainly acknowledged that most nice hunters can be very successful at the lower levels of dressage (and sometimes vice versa).

But I stand by my thinking that at the level of the ideal, a truly exceptional hunter does not move like a truly exceptional dressage horse, and a truly exceptional dressage horse does not move like a truly exceptional hunter.

That is just my experience, and I am happy for others to disagree and buy whatever kind of mover they like. I am surprised that everyone seems to think great movers are interchangeable at the highest levels of sport, though.

[Aven]

I agree wholeheartedly. The show ring has gone away from the true hunter.

They are not supposed to be dressagy. They are hunters. I am old school, taught by old school judges who like the flat moving type without the WB dressagy movement. That doesn't mean that I don't like a nice WB with real hunter movement.

Have people really gotten that confused about what a proper hunter is supposed to look like? I'm sorry. I'm not into the fads.

This is my idea of a 10 mover at the canter. The trot could be better. Notice how flat the horse moves and how it doesn't have any knee action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdiNc5pNbEs

Now, that is what a hunter is supposed to look like. A hunter is not supposed to have dressage like suspension.

I have a video that you all should watch...selecting hunters and jumpers by Rodney Jenkins. Watch the bay horse in that video move. The horse's name is R.S.V.P. Then watch horses like Simba Lu and The Wizard jump. Those horses are the standard.

Judges can only judge what you put in the ring.

I have been reading this thread with interest and a bit of amusement. I have friends who work at some BNB for hunters and jumpers I have heard these types of arguments before.

BUT show ring hunters have gotten so far off what REAL hunters (aka field hunters) are like its kind of a moot point. Yes a field hunter should have nice economical movement, but you don't want a horse with such low movement that they can't handle uneven ground. Showing is always going to be mixture of tradition and fads.

[tidy rabbit]

I am surprised that everyone seems to think great movers are interchangeable at the highest levels of sport, though.

I'm with you ford. I think at the top levels they are two very different animals.

I recently started riding my Jumpers with a Dressage trainer who rides at the FEI level and it's been very interesting to find out what she thinks the difference are and why.

[Filly85']

I watched your video and out of the 10 something seconds they grey horse was shown flatting I did not see an amazing mover. I have photos of my mare with the exact same timing as the two pictures you posted and her knee is flat...is she a daisy cutter? HECK no. And she moves nothing like the horse you think has too much knee action. The horse Europa posted, Crown Point is a very nice example of a daisy cutter. They are supposed to have suspension. I see no knee action. Here's the whole video
http://www.showhunterclinic.com/playvideo.php?sample=319&ext=wmv

I don't think I ever said that horse was an amzing mover, but, okay, so my horse is not an amazing mover to you. You win. It still doesn't change my standards or the judges' standards that I know when it comes to movement in hunters. It also didn't stop my horse from winning the hack at the shows in both the rated and unrated company when he was younger. When I first watched my horse canter before I bought him, it took my breath away. I was just lucky enough that he later became for sale. I have seen a few horses that can go with him at the canter, but not too many. He has the extra flash at the canter. I was offered a lot of money for that horse before he was even trained because of his quality. People would literally come up to me at the shows and ask if he was for sale. That's when you know you made the right decision. Nothing you say will change that, or any of the judges' opinions about him. He may just be average to you, but to the judges and all of the people he showed against, he was more than just an average mover.

[Perfect Pony]

Portia, I have certainly acknowledged that most nice hunters can be very successful at the lower levels of dressage (and sometimes vice versa).

But I stand by my thinking that at the level of the ideal, a truly exceptional hunter does not move like a truly exceptional dressage horse, and a truly exceptional dressage horse does not move like a truly exceptional hunter.

That is just my experience, and I am happy for others to disagree and buy whatever kind of mover they like. I am surprised that everyone seems to think great movers are interchangeable at the highest levels of sport, though.

ACTUALLY, one of my best friend's has a PSG level dressage horse who when ridden long and low moves almost exactly like that chestnut all of you are ooooing and ahhhhing about.

[farmgirl88]

I have some photos of my guys.

This is the mar ei just sold:

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/?action=view&current=fbb46001.jpg

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/?action=view&current=8efb494e.jpg

THIS is My Medium @ Pony Finals in '06 (the year Emerson was there). I think shes a LOVELY example ofa daisy cutter:

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/benleasealily/?action=view&current=lilyPF3.jpg

[sansibar]

I'm a photographer and I will never again judge a horses true movement by photos. I've seen some of the ugliest movers on earth made to look good just by timing. Doing the hunter circle at the end especially, as soon as they transition into the trot from the canter. Any horse can be made to look pretty spectacular at the precise moment! However no doubt the two ponies posted are indeed lovely movers.


I Agree! But I chose these ponies since I am pretty sure they have never been out of the ribbons in a hack, and I am pretty sure Emerson always is the hack winner ;).

[DMK]

Your phrase here cracks me up, because the thing that's always bothered me about him is that the back half doesn't jump like the front.

Well, I'll give you that his back end (and tail) are no Strapless, but at least he doesn't belly up to the jump, so that makes me happy.

MLP, I really was trying hard to ignore your whole hunter vs. dressage discussion not because I don't agree with you, but because I didn't really care, but since I somehow got quoted into it... I agree, suspension & daisy cutter can go together. Suspension and lots of knee and hock elevation and action can go together. Daisy cutter and knee/hock elevation cannot co-exist. To me it seems as though there is a real premium on suspension & elevation in the modern dressage horse and some of this is created through the frame and training, but not all of it because if you select for a trait you will eventually get it. But for the purposes of both a top hunter or a top dressage horse there is so much more that goes into it than just movement, that yes, I agree that a horse who isn't in the top 10% of movers can easily make it into the top 5% of the sport.

And yes, you DO see a lot more of the WB type movers winning the hack but that doesn't prove judges like that mover better (they may or they may not, as I have a high stepping suspension free hackney impersonator, I can only say they all still do not like that particular way of going). You can only judge the horses in the ring so if the other example isn't in the ring, what are you supposed to pin?

[Montanas_Girl]

This is my idea of a 10 mover at the canter. The trot could be better. Notice how flat the horse moves and how it doesn't have any knee action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdiNc5pNbEs

Now, that is what a hunter is supposed to look like. A hunter is not supposed to have dressage like suspension.

No, that is what a nice AQHA hunter looks like, but that is not what a hunter is supposed to look like. I would expect a horse with a "10" canter to have some semblance of impulsion and reach from behind with a stride significantly longer than that horse exhibits. I would also expect the horse to be able to canter with its body straight, not with its haunches at a 30 degree angle to its shoulders.

[Filly85']

I think you might be reading just a tad too much into what I said. Words on a screen. I never said your horse was a bad mover. I said he was not the "ideal" daisy cutter mover. Neither is my mare. Does that mean I think she's a crap mover? Heck no. I love the way she moves, it's just not daisy cutter. I have appreciation for all types of horses and all types of movers. Just because they aren't daisy cutters does not make them poor movers and I never hinted otherwise. If we are getting into a p*ssing contest, I've had offers to buy my mare without her ever leaving the trainers barn (not a BNT). Before she was even started under saddle. I'm glad your horse does well. Good for you and good for him. Take a step back and take a deep breath before you reply next time!

You said he was not an amazing mover. Maybe he isn't. I know that some people think that he is, but I'm not really sure because he's mine, and no matter what I think about him, people are going to think my opinion is biased. The previous owner of my horse offered me three times what I paid for him a year after I bought him, and he was expensive for a yearling. Just for credibility purposes, I've been a learner judge for the past eight years under three different horse show judges. I was also one of the top youth judges in the country at one time. In fact, I was a reserve national individual champion in educational judging competitions for whatever that is worth. I think judges in my area have a different definition of what daisy cutter and correct hunter movement is than other people because that one chestnut horse is not what I have been taught is a daisy cutter. As someone else put it, that horse is above the daisies.

[onwego]

You said he was not an amazing mover. Maybe he isn't. I know that some people think that he is, but I'm not really sure because he's mine, and no matter what I think about him, people are going to think my opinion is biased. The previous owner of my horse offered me three times what I paid for him a year after I bought him, and he was expensive for a yearling. Just for credibility purposes, I've been a learner judge for the past eight years under three different horse show judges. I was also one of the top youth judges in the country at one time. In fact, I was a reserve national individual champion in educational judging competitions for whatever that is worth. I think judges in my area have a different definition of what daisy cutter and correct hunter movement is than other people because that one chestnut horse is not what I have been taught is a daisy cutter. As someone else put it, that horse is above the daisies.


As someone who lives and shows in your area, the chestnut that you don't like is going to be the winner u/s over any of the horses you have picked as ideal.

[gypsymare]

No, that is what a nice AQHA hunter looks like, but that is not what a hunter is supposed to look like. I would expect a horse with a "10" canter to have some semblance of impulsion and reach from behind with a stride significantly longer than that horse exhibits. I would also expect the horse to be able to canter with its body straight, not with its haunches at a 30 degree angle to its shoulders.
The 30 pound tail wasn't a dead giveaway?
What do you call a hunter that can win at IHF to differentiate it from the AQHA/APHA style hunters without offending anyone? "Real hunters" just isn't quite PC enough :lol:

[Filly85']

As someone who lives and shows in your area, the chestnut that you don't like is going to be the winner u/s over any of the horses you have picked as ideal.

Not RSVP in that video of selecting hunters and jumpers. No way, no how. I haven't pointed out an ideal horse other than RSVP (which I cannot post a video of) at the trot because I can't find one. I had one in mind of a baby green TB hunter, but the video has been removed.

I haven't seen Crown Point's canter, and that is the most important gait. Still, this horse is more of the type that I look for, even though he has steel shoes on. If you removed those, he wouldn't have so much elevation at the canter. This horse's movement is just so much more natural and flat at the trot than Crown Point's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKVHgHv1lg&feature=channel_page

[Filly85']

No, that is what a nice AQHA hunter looks like, but that is not what a hunter is supposed to look like. I would expect a horse with a "10" canter to have some semblance of impulsion and reach from behind with a stride significantly longer than that horse exhibits. I would also expect the horse to be able to canter with its body straight, not with its haunches at a 30 degree angle to its shoulders.

The stride could be bigger and more swinging, but this is as close to a 10 of what I am looking for in a canter as I could find in the videos on youtube, and I went through quite a few. I couldn't really find the horse that I was looking for.

This horse has more impulsion at the canter between these fences than I'm seeing in a lot of the A circuit over fences classes!

The AQHA World Champion in Working Hunter Over fences was only your A circuit horse of the year a few years ago. Too bad Quarter Horses can't compete on the A circuit right?:lol:

The AQHA hunters do canter at an angle sometimes. It is a fad that they like, although not what I like. Still, I can look beyond that, and this horse has a nice canter.

I am convinced that one day, Quarter horses will be the new A circuit fad....lol. In all honesty, they really are a very nice breed. Too bad a lot of people are so against them. Those people are missing out on some great A circuit champion type horses without the enormous price tag.

[sansibar]

I would say Paige Dixon's pony Dream girl is quite the mover, she won every flat class this year except one on the Ontario A circuit. I think this ponies canter is fantastic! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH6D2YCA8fk

[Montanas_Girl]

Let me guess, Filly. All these judging competitions you won - they were 4-H/FFA type contests, yes?

As someone who went through that system, I can tell you that what helps you win a judging contest is NOT what helps you to be a judge in the "real" world, unless your goal is to be an AQHA judge. I learned how to work that system very well and won lots of awards, but that doesn't mean I agree with 75% of what I was taught.

That horse is a very, very nice example of what is desired in the AQHA working hunter ring. Just like this horse is a very, very nice example of what is desired in the Arabian working hunter ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ8RuW1-hoE

That doesn't make either of them hack winners at WEF or Devon.

[lauriep]

I agree - that horse Scott is on is a great mover and as close to a daisy cutter as we have seen on this thread. I think you can see a slightly different variation on it on some more TB types. It's still all the things talked about here, but usually a hair less suspension. To me they are both daisy cutters though. A moment of suspension ... or not ... doesn't take away from the basic idea that the daisy heads are getting mowed off by toes and that this horse is efficient in how he covers the ground. Quaterback? Beautimous and droolworthy. But efficient? Not so much.

BTW, to me Cabardino is not a great mover although he is very athletic. And I say this with all the love in my heart as he is simply head and shoulders (knees and toes! :D ) above the current or recently retired stallions when it comes to the quality of his jump. But like most jaw dropping jumpers, he doesn't exactly take your breath away in the hack. ;)

IMO, Scott's horse gives the impression of flinging his legs out in front of him without accompanying shoulder follow-through. The shoulder stops short of a full swing. And a true daisy cutter doesn't have suspension, and you don't want it in a hunter. Although it is being more widely accepted because that is the way WBs move.

We have a filly who won both the eastern regionals and finals of the IHF 2 y.o. u/s this year who is a lovely mover. Unfortunately, I don't have any video of her.

[Serah]

For all of you that claim that true daisy cutters don't have suspension... I have a question.

Without suspension and without bending the knee and without paddling... how is a horse supposed to clear the ground?!?!

Its my understanding that a correct hunter is lifting through his withers and back and trotting off his hind legs with his head low and stretched forward.... in order to lift through the back and withers you need some suspension, and if your horse is pushing off the hind end correctly you will also create some suspension.

The horse Europa posted is a hack winner for sure, I would like him to stretch his neck a little bit, I find him to be a little over-flexed which I believe is why he appears short through his shoulder.

[RW06]

Let me guess, Filly. All these judging competitions you won - they were 4-H/FFA type contests, yes?

As someone who went through that system, I can tell you that what helps you win a judging contest is NOT what helps you to be a judge in the "real" world, unless your goal is to be an AQHA judge. I learned how to work that system very well and won lots of awards, but that doesn't mean I agree with 75% of what I was taught.

That horse is a very, very nice example of what is desired in the AQHA working hunter ring. Just like this horse is a very, very nice example of what is desired in the Arabian working hunter ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ8RuW1-hoE

That doesn't make either of them hack winners at WEF or Devon.

I'm assuming this is the same Michael Desiderio that did so well at finals this year... looks just as wonderful on an Arabian as he does in the Big Eq. ring!

[chaos theory]

I think there is a fundamental issue we're ignoring here: "daisy cutter" and "good mover" are NOT one and the same. A horse can be an excellent mover and not a daisy cutter and vice versa.

Take my horse, for example. He's pretty darn close to a textbook "daisy cutter". He has almost no knee or hock action at the trot or canter. It makes him very comfortable and easy to sit on. However, he is not a "10" mover by hunter or dressage standards - he wins most of the time locally, but he does not have enough reach or suspension to play with the big dogs, unlike the Scott Stewart horse shown earlier in this thread.


I have one of those as well. He's a cute, little, Appendix QH.

I think he is close to "daisy cutter" movement.

He is very flat and covers ground amazingly easily, but would not pin in today's ring. He did good locally, usually 2nd to 4th in the hack, but is nowhere near a "10" mover.

We don't show hunters anymore, but I just wanted to throw this clip out there and see what others thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZbJYsRwgLg

[supershorty628]

My medium pony was always described as a daisy cutter. We won almost every undersaddle we went in.

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=483skgl This is jerky - sorry - but you can still see how she moves.

[DMK]

LaurieP - I think I agreed with you in my very next post! ;)

[anchorsaway]

God I hope not. I'd rip my hair out if we had a bunch of trantering peanut rolling hunters. Now are we referring to HUS or O/F horses? I won't disagree there are some super nice AQHA horses out there that would clean up in the open shows, IF they are trained right and not the traditional AQHA way....unless they've changed recently. And I'll repeat again I did not say your horse was a bad mover. I did say not amazing, my literal meaning was not daisy cutter. And thank you for the credentials but I'm not much of a credential person, I've seen total crap come out of some very big name rider/trainer/breeders farm in my area. I posted a link to a full video of Crown Point which shows his canter also I believe. I wish my mare went around so nicely and she's a 3 year old as well. I politely bow out of this conversation since everyone has an opinion on what is what and what is nice and won't just agree to disagree :0)

hahahah trantering peanut rolling hunters :D
I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned Rox Dene yet...

[naters]

Have people really gotten that confused about what a proper hunter is supposed to look like? I'm sorry. I'm not into the fads.

This is my idea of a 10 mover at the canter. The trot could be better. Notice how flat the horse moves and how it doesn't have any knee action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdiNc5pNbEs

Now, that is what a hunter is supposed to look like. A hunter is not supposed to have dressage like suspension.

.


OH my... that fake tail is just so distracting. This must be an AQHA horse??

[naters]

Nevermind... I just read the rest of the posts.... yep, AQHA.

[sixpoundfarm]

Normally I stay away from these threads, but I am curious to hear thoughts on this horse?

http://sixpoundfarm.com/shortrot.mpg

Good, bad, Indifferent?


Thanks!

[MLP]

I've got to agree with the others -- many a good dressage sire can produce good hunters as well.

My young Hano gelding started out doing dressage and we kept showing him at some dressage shows even after we started jumping him and moved him into the hunters. He regularly got 8's on his gaits in training and 1st level dressage and won many of his classes, including the championships. But we took the steel shoes off, put aluminum plates on, and now he wins the hacks in the pre-greens in good company at A shows. :)

The basics are still the same -- rhythmic, even, flowing movement with good length of stride and impulsion. The only real difference is preferred appearance of knee action at the trot - and it's not that dressage wants high knee action, just that they're willing to accept more of it than hunters -- and how those gaits are presented. Dressage develops and promotes suspension and expressiveness of gait, while the hunters want to leave it very natural and relaxed (if those are even the right words).

The Hanoverian stallion Granduell produced excellent dressage horses -- and a 1st year green circuit champion at Indio and Indoors. :)

Great post. That was exactly my point. Sounds like you have a very nice horse!

[MLP]

I agree wholeheartedly. The show ring has gone away from the true hunter.

They are not supposed to be dressagy. They are hunters. I am old school, taught by old school judges who like the flat moving type without the WB dressagy movement. That doesn't mean that I don't like a nice WB with real hunter movement.

Have people really gotten that confused about what a proper hunter is supposed to look like? I'm sorry. I'm not into the fads.

This is my idea of a 10 mover at the canter. The trot could be better. Notice how flat the horse moves and how it doesn't have any knee action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdiNc5pNbEs

Now, that is what a hunter is supposed to look like. A hunter is not supposed to have dressage like suspension.

I have a video that you all should watch...selecting hunters and jumpers by Rodney Jenkins. Watch the bay horse in that video move. The horse's name is R.S.V.P. Then watch horses like Simba Lu and The Wizard jump. Those horses are the standard.

Judges can only judge what you put in the ring.

It's definitely subjective because I think that Scott's chestnut would beat this horse hands down. I think this one has knee action and I don't think based on the video it has all that amazing of a trot, a slightly better canter but the lack of freedom in the shoulder limits the scope. I may be wrong but that looks like a 3 foot finals, Zone Finals if I am correct. Not a division horse. If I were to take either I would rather have a little extra suspension and a free shoulder, which will allow for better jumping then the stiff shoulder and a daisy cutter trot. Fortunately what I like right now is what's in style.

[lcw579]

For me a daisy cutter is like porn - I know it when I see it! :winkgrin:


I like Scott's horse too and agree with Europa about Wesporte. I think his trotting in hand video shows the toe flick of a daisy cutter off nicely.

http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/stallion.htm

[Moogles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

Not a hunter rider here but I would just like to comment on the horse posted by Europa. That horse is very pleasant to watch and I have no doubt that it could be trained to be a decent dressage horse. Every horse should be capable to work at 2nd or 3rd level dressage with solid training. Even "daisy cutters".
A horse's movement changes with progressive dressage training. When you are looking at an extended trot (not lengthen but actual extended) that actually comes from collection. So looking at a big dressage extended trot compared to the video's posted of "daisy cutters" is apples to oranges. In the videos posted none of these horses look like the have developed the collection required to bust out those big dressage extended trots. I just think that because a horse is supposed to be a hunter type horse dosen't mean that it isn't capable of performing decent dressage. A lot of a dressage horse's expression and suspension is trained over time but the naturally gifted young dressage horses already have talent for collection which make it easier for them to develop suspension.

[Moogles]

For me a daisy cutter is like porn - I know it when I see it! :winkgrin:


I like Scott's horse too and agree with Europa about Wesporte. I think his trotting in hand video shows the toe flick of a daisy cutter off nicely.

http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/stallion.htm

Westporte has tons of famous dressage horses in his pedigree! Including Weltmeyer who is insanely popular in dressage. Like really really popular.:lol: Fabriano is also known to produce dressage horses. So there goes the "no dressage horse can sire hunters"!!:yes:

[Portia]

I love the free relaxed movement of our hunters with the relaxed head carriage (not low, low) with big shoulder movement, pushing off the hind end with big easy steps.
When a horse is dressage trained, there is more contact, the neck set is higher and the knees are more like 'riding a bicycle'. My young horse is still green and can seem to go both ways, depending on how she is ridden. I favour her 'hunter' look. because she will never look like Quaterback, but she can come up, too.
I agree. :) But the key is that the basics are the same, and to me 75% of what makes the difference between the very good hunter mover and the good dressage mover is how the horse is ridden and trained. If you take half the dressage horses in our barn and work them long and low (in the dressage meaning), they will look like pretty nice hunter movers. (The other half have too much knee action.) But then you round them up and put them on the bit, sit down on their backs and drive from your butt and leg, they'll come through from behind and look like the dressage horses they are.

We've stopped showing my guy in dressage only because it's unfair to ask him to change his style from week to week and ride to ride. Also his butt gets sore when he's not doing dressage regularly and then we ask him to do collection, extensions, and lateral work. ;)

[Portia]

Not a hunter rider here but I would just like to comment on the horse posted by Europa. That horse is very pleasant to watch and I have no doubt that it could be trained to be a decent dressage horse. Every horse should be capable to work at 2nd or 3rd level dressage with solid training. Even "daisy cutters".
A horse's movement changes with progressive dressage training. When you are looking at an extended trot (not lengthen but actual extended) that actually comes from collection. So looking at a big dressage extended trot compared to the video's posted of "daisy cutters" is apples to oranges. In the videos posted none of these horses look like the have developed the collection required to bust out those big dressage extended trots. I just think that because a horse is supposed to be a hunter type horse dosen't mean that it isn't capable of performing decent dressage. A lot of a dressage horse's expression and suspension is trained over time but the naturally gifted young dressage horses already have talent for collection which make it easier for them to develop suspension.
Exactly! :) It would be difficult to take a horse that has been a hunter all his life and ask him to change to dressage and ever do anything above 1st or maybe 2nd level. But I'm pretty sure you could take some nice upper level dressage horses, let them down, and they'd look like pretty nice hunter movers. Wouldn't get around a course, but they'd look nice on the flat. ;)

And thanks MLP, we like him. :)

[Filly85']

It's definitely subjective because I think that Scott's chestnut would beat this horse hands down. I think this one has knee action and I don't think based on the video it has all that amazing of a trot, a slightly better canter but the lack of freedom in the shoulder limits the scope. I may be wrong but that looks like a 3 foot finals, Zone Finals if I am correct. Not a division horse. If I were to take either I would rather have a little extra suspension and a free shoulder, which will allow for better jumping then the stiff shoulder and a daisy cutter trot. Fortunately what I like right now is what's in style.

I would place Scott's horse above that horse too, but I was trying to give everyone an idea of proper type. I'm not saying Crown Point isn't a nice horse because he is. I wouldn't mind having the horse in my barn, but I would look elsewhere if I were going to spend a lot of money for one. Because he is not ideal or correct or the type I like and he is certainly NOT a daisy cutter. That is not really subjective because it is layed out in judging manuels about what a daisy cutter is.

If that AQHA chestnut had a bigger stride and had more impulsion, that horse "should" win because that horse is the proper hunter type. The AQHA horse isn't a big heavy horse with a lot of suspension and knee action.

The horse that I posted of the other hunter WB should beat Crown Point with no question at the trot because that horse is more typey and correct. He has a flatter stride with no knee action. He is looser than Crown Point in the shoulders than Crown Point, and just has a very pretty nice way of going. That other WB is what I call awesome.

Crown Point is stilty in the canter, and doesn't have a nice wheel. He doesn't have the nice fluid stride at the canter, and it could be a longer more efficient stride. He has too much suspension at the trot. His front hoof is 4+ inches off the ground, and then he puts it straight down. He literally throws his leg out in front of him. His neck is a bit short, and his back is a bit long. That is distracting. His knee is bent when he hits the ground at the walk, which is a big no-no. That doesn't mean that he won't win a hack class because there is probably not going to be anything closer to the ideal in there than him right now because everyone is riding big, heavy horses with knee action now, and he does have a big stride at the trot.

If you like the type of horse that Crown Point is, more power to you. But, it is not a guarantee that this is what will be winning in the future. As someone who is going to be a judge, this is not the direction that I want hunters to go in because it is getting too dressagy and this is not the direction that I know many of the hunter judges want to see the hunter ring going.

Let me guess, Filly. All these judging competitions you won - they were 4-H/FFA type contests, yes?

As someone who went through that system, I can tell you that what helps you win a judging contest is NOT what helps you to be a judge in the "real" world, unless your goal is to be an AQHA judge. I learned how to work that system very well and won lots of awards, but that doesn't mean I agree with 75% of what I was taught.

That horse is a very, very nice example of what is desired in the AQHA working hunter ring. Just like this horse is a very, very nice example of what is desired in the Arabian working hunter ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ8RuW1-hoE

That doesn't make either of them hack winners at WEF or Devon.

Haha, just because I posted an AQHA video, now people think that I'm more geared towards QHs...haha. Actually, I'm more geared towards the TB type hunter. I just couldn't find one that I really liked and came across that little cute moving AQHA horse.

Except that I have been a learner judge under three different judges in the past 5 years at all different types of shows since I was aged out of 4-H. And also, we judged A circuit type hunters sometimes in our state 4-H horse competitions.

I was taught under a fantastic show judge while I was in 4-H. Anyone that is familiar with the NC 4-H Program will say that it is the best in the country because of who is running it. A PhD and certified horse show judge trains the judging team. NC has the best judging team every year for a reason. I actually switched from VA to NC because NC was better, although VA is really competitive now too. VA is definitely getting better. In NC, we usually win because we are taught by the best.

You must have never been to Nationals. Otherwise, you wouldn't have said what you said. It is super hard to win there, and you definitely have to know what you are doing. It's not just luck to win there, and we don't just judge Quarter Horses. I remember judging A circuit horses at Southern Regionals one year as well.

I'm sure someone like shawneeacres could tell you a little more about it. I think she has some kids that compete on the NC 4-H circuit. She can also tell you that a lot of the hunters that compete in the 4-H are A circuit hunters as well.

People want to diss the 4-H because they may not have a good 4-H system in their state. Some states have really bad programs. NC is certainly not one of them. My trainer is one of the people that actually helped establish the NC 4-H Horse program. Trust me. It has been done right, and we were very lucky to get who we got to train the NC national 4-H judging teams.

A horse is not supposed to paddle. If they paddle even though they are nice movers from the side, they will be marked down a few places if the rest of the class warrants the move. A hunter is supposed to have very little suspension. He is not supposed to be a dressage horse.

Carbardino moves much nicer than him even though Crown Point even though Carbadino uses his knee a little bit. He doesn't use his knee nearly as much as Crown Point though. He is overall a much more fluid, loose horse, with a much flatter stride with little suspension. And he is very athletic. That horse is an awesome mover even with the little bit of knee action.

I will go talk to two judges tomorrow, and post what they say about the horse either way. At this point, this is my own opinion as a measely learner judge. I'll go talk to the experts and get back to you tomorrow. Then, I will tell you what judges would like to see in the ring. I don't think the response will be any different than it is now though.

You all should see the TB threads for more information.

I'm just trying to give you my opinion from a judging standpoint. Remember, ultimately, judges are the ones that decide what wins and what doesn't win. This is coming from what I have been taught and what I like. It is also because I don't like where the hunter ring is going, and hope that it changes.

[Edgewood]

Exactly! :) It would be difficult to take a horse that has been a hunter all his life and ask him to change to dressage and every do anything above 1st or maybe 2nd level. But I'm pretty sure you could take some nice upper level dressage horses, let them down, and they'd look like pretty nice hunter movers. Wouldn't get around a course, but they'd look nice on the flat. ;)

And thanks MLP, we like him. :)

Case in point, the stallion Donatelli, who was a very successful FEI dressage competitor through Grand Prix dressage and was switched (as an older horse) to hunters. Here are videos of him from Germany and at one hunter show. They were planning on campaigning him in the hunters until his untimely death last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dD0kBtYrNU&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g-hlJIk_PY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HCNI5xKF8k&feature=channel

[Montanas_Girl]

I was taught under a fantastic show judge while I was in 4-H. Anyone that is familiar with the NC 4-H Program will say that it is the best in the country because of who is running it. A PhD and certified horse show judge trains the judging team. NC has the best judging team every year for a reason. I actually switched from VA to NC because NC was better, although VA is really competitive now too. VA is definitely getting better. In NC, we usually win because we are taught by the best.

You must have never been to Nationals. Otherwise, you wouldn't have said what you said. It is super hard to win there, and you definitely have to know what you are doing. It's not just luck to win there, and we don't just judge Quarter Horses. I remember judging A circuit horses at Southern Regionals one year as well.

I'm sure someone like shawneeacres could tell you a little more about it. I think she has some kids that compete on the NC 4-H circuit. She can also tell you that a lot of the hunters that compete in the 4-H are A circuit hunters as well.

People want to diss the 4-H because they may not have a good 4-H system in their state. Some states have really bad programs. NC is certainly not one of them. My trainer is one of the people that actually helped establish the NC 4-H Horse program. Trust me. It has been done right, and we were very lucky to get who we got to train the NC national 4-H judging teams.

Wow. It must be nice to be so all-knowing and all-important.

Where exactly in my post did you see ANYTHING dissing 4-H? The fact of the matter is that the 4-H judging handbook and training videos are published/produced by AQHA, therefore the guidelines by which you (and ALL 4-Hers) were taught were based on AQHA standards, regardless of who may be teaching you. 4-H receives a lot of support both promotionally and financially from the AQHA, which is great! I have been involved in 4-H off an on for well over a decade, and I have never been to a show or judging event where the judge/official did not hold an AQHA card.

Last I checked, ALL state 4-H programs were run by PhD's, so that doesn't make your progam any "better" than any other. I have been involved in 4-H in two states, as both a participant and an organizer/official. I LOVE 4-H and the FFA, but the programs are not without fault. They do a great job of preparing future AQHA/APHA/etc. judges but are not really focused on other breeds or disciplines.

[Perfect Pony]

Case in point, the stallion Donatelli, who was a very successful FEI dressage competitor through Grand Prix dressage and was switched (as an older horse) to hunters.

fyi, my friend's PSG horse (who moves like the chestnut) is by Davignon I, who like this stallion is by Donnerhall out of a Pik Bube mare. From my understanding this line tends to throw nice crossover dressage/hunters.

Which is why I am considering breeding my G-line mare (who moves "hunterish" but I do dressage with) to Dacaprio.

And on the subject of going back and forth. And good dressage rider will ride their horse in a long and low frame every ride no matter what level. It should be easy for a well trained horse to go in both "frames". And by riding your hunter a little deep and also a little collected during you ride IMO you will improve their musculature and balance and it should help their hunter performance and way of going.

[onwego]

Crown Point is stilty in the canter, and doesn't have a nice wheel. He doesn't have the nice fluid stride at the canter, and it could be a longer more efficient stride.



How can you judge Crown Point's canter when he does nothing but trot in the video???

[Montanas_Girl]

How can you judge Crown Point's canter when he does nothing but trot in the video???

Silly! Don't you realize that Filly here is SUCH a superior judge of horseflesh that she just knows how the horse will canter? :lol: I mean, she figured out from one post of mine that I'd obviously never been involved in a high level judging competition or a "good" 4-H program. AND she knows more than any of the highly experienced riders/competitors who have posted here in disagreement with her!

[smid2]

Ok, I just have to throw this out there.....maybe she's seen him canter elsewhere? I'm sure the horse has appeared moving in other places besides that one video posted here. Back to your regularly scheduled argument.

[MLP]

Case in point, the stallion Donatelli, who was a very successful FEI dressage competitor through Grand Prix dressage and was switched (as an older horse) to hunters. Here are videos of him from Germany and at one hunter show. They were planning on campaigning him in the hunters until his untimely death last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dD0kBtYrNU&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g-hlJIk_PY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HCNI5xKF8k&feature=channel


Thanks for sharing, really proves the point. Even in the dressage video you can tell the front end movement is there, coupled with the elastic shoulder which allows for that amazing extension. I think I prefer his movement to Crowne Point, a little more pointing of the toes. Very cool!

[lcw579]

And on the subject of going back and forth. And good dressage rider will ride their horse in a long and low frame every ride no matter what level. It should be easy for a well trained horse to go in both "frames". And by riding your hunter a little deep and also a little collected during you ride IMO you will improve their musculature and balance and it should help their hunter performance and way of going.

That's what I was taught back in the dark ages.

On the topic of horses having more than one talent. Don't have any video but offer up Abundance as a stallion that did well at more than one discipline and had offspring that excelled in dressage, eventing and hunters. Ruxton, anyone?

I rode at Skyline Farm with his owner Al Steiert but he stood at Watermark Farm for a while and they have this nice tribute to him:

http://www.watermark-farm.com/index.html

As for whether he was a daisy cutter - I don't remember. But he was talented.

[lauriep]

Yes, but Ruxton was never the hack winner!

[lcw579]

Well, I did say I couldn't remember. I was a kid! :lol::lol:

But, I still think a horse can do both - hunters and dressage. But I will cede the win in the hack.

[CBoylen]

Carbardino moves much nicer than him even though Crown Point even though Carbadino uses his knee a little bit. He doesn't use his knee nearly as much as Crown Point though. He is overall a much more fluid, loose horse, with a much flatter stride with little suspension. And he is very athletic. That horse is an awesome mover even with the little bit of knee action. I'm just trying to give you my opinion from a judging standpoint. Remember, ultimately, judges are the ones that decide what wins and what doesn't win.
The judges have decided. These horses show and hack in front of actual judges. Crown Point usually won in the pregreens. Carbardino usually barely gets a ribbon unless there are more ribbons than horses.

[Portia]

fyi, my friend's PSG horse (who moves like the chestnut) is by Davignon I, who like this stallion is by Donnerhall out of a Pik Bube mare. From my understanding this line tends to throw nice crossover dressage/hunters.
My guy is by Davignport, who is by Davignon I out of a Maat mare whose grand-damsire was Pik Koenig, Pik Bube's sire. (On the bottom he is out of a Lemon XX/Darling mare, so there's your good old-fashioned (Hannoverian approved) TB blood for you too.)

According to his owner, Davignport is becoming known for producing two things: dressage horses and hunters.

[dags]

I'm so baffled by what we are discussing here :)

There's a link to 8 minutes of Crown Point on page 1, near bottom. I just went back and watched all 8 minutes. Conclusions:

He's a daisy cutter, he even does the funky 'swing wide with the front legs at the canter so I don't have to bend them' thing I often see in the pony ring, where daisy cutters are much more prevalant. This should not be confused with paddling, they are not the same.

I cannot see the knee movement in this horse that you see Filly. In fact, I can't see what's wrong with him at all at the trot. He is a lazy-as-$hit 3 y.o. warmblood learning to go forward (thank god), what he's doing at the trot is lovely, correct, and very green.

And then he canters, and he somewhat morphs into an equitation horse that moves awesome. Not a whole lot of reach to the stride, but more than enough natural engagement behind that it won't matter, as long as he's ridden up. By the time he's 8, and he's built the muscle behind to hold himself up, so that you can let him stretch into the step a bit, you will see a much different canter that seems like a lot less effort.

I think where we've strayed is confusing type and movement (not too mention "taste" and "preference"). The OP wanted an example of a daisy cutter - I think we've all agreed CP is that. Whether he is your personal preference as a hunter is another thing, but he is a good mover - and a daisy cutter - enough suspension to move the leg without bending the joints - could be a touch less but I really can't stand riding things that feel as flat as a pancake . . . they just feel void of scope. I'm thinking that if you learned about daisy-cutters watching HUS horses go, you have a different impression of what it is. Our horses can't go that flat, or they couldn't jump a decent height (possibly why most true daisy cutters are in the pony ring?). I would call 4" of ground clearance the minimum for me.

Daisy's aren't necesarily kept mowed, ya know? They don't literally have to shuffle across like their trimming the greens at a country club golf course.


Oklahoma/midwest in the 90s, anyone? Sweet William, chestnut junior hunter? This horse is what comes to mind as ultimate daisy cutter over 14.2h. Did have less suspension than CP.

[3Dogs]

Scott's horse? - I agree with LaurieP - I find that movement almost freaky. Doesn't appeal to me at all. Flinging it's shoulder - yes, agree Laurie.
And I don't care how "daisy cutter" any mover is, if they can't jump, they are useless in the hunter ring. I have seen many many "daisy cutter's" who couldn't lift their knees to save their blessed little daisy cutter lives :lol:

Once in awhile, a horse comes along who actually is extremely athletic, moves close to the ground and jumps the moon (can we say RD:D) - but watch the difference between the 2'6" and 3' ring movers (and hack winners) and then the 4' ring horses (and hack winners) - you often find that the "no action" movement has vanished and has been replaced not by the extravagance of the dressage ring movement, but a looser shouder, fuller movement, more step up behind. Depends what you are looking for.
I look at great jumpers myself - they generally have the hind end I prefer for a hunter over dressage horse hind ends - the way they use their hocks. Then have a lovely moving mare :)

[onwego]

I posted a link to the full video of him that was on a particular website. It has footage of him cantering also.


I completely missed that earlier. I would love to see a video of him now hacking and jumping a course and see how he has developed with age and training. Does anybody know how he is bred?

[Filly85']

Wow. It must be nice to be so all-knowing and all-important.

Where exactly in my post did you see ANYTHING dissing 4-H? The fact of the matter is that the 4-H judging handbook and training videos are published/produced by AQHA, therefore the guidelines by which you (and ALL 4-Hers) were taught were based on AQHA standards, regardless of who may be teaching you. 4-H receives a lot of support both promotionally and financially from the AQHA, which is great! I have been involved in 4-H off an on for well over a decade, and I have never been to a show or judging event where the judge/official did not hold an AQHA card.

Last I checked, ALL state 4-H programs were run by PhD's, so that doesn't make your progam any "better" than any other. I have been involved in 4-H in two states, as both a participant and an organizer/official. I LOVE 4-H and the FFA, but the programs are not without fault. They do a great job of preparing future AQHA/APHA/etc. judges but are not really focused on other breeds or disciplines.

Sorry off topic a bit.

I'm not all-knowing and all-important, but I am pretty important:lol: especially if I decide to save lives for a living one day...either horses or humans.

I didn't mean to diss other programs other than NC. The 4-H is wonderful everywhere. I actually want to start helping out with the 4-H in a less successful state and get the program on its feet. I know what NC does to be successful, and I was just basing the quality of the NC program compared to others on the fact that we win horsebowl, hippology, and judging at Nationals and Congress almost every single year. We win horsebowl and judging at Worlds almost every single year. In fact, we won all of the big three at nationals last year. It is the way that the program is run, and, yes, the NC program is more succesful than some other programs in competitions. If that means that it's better to you then oh well. I wish the other programs would realize what NC was doing so that they could be more successful for the kids' sakes. When I was in the 4-H, I judged everything from reining to Arabians to Saddlebreds to conformation hunters in hand. They are certainly not focused solely on the AQHA where I come from.

In fact, when I was at Southern Regionals one year, we didn't judge a single AQHA type class in the hippology portion of judging. We judged a three gaited Saddlebred class, a hunter in hand conformation class (not QHs), a reining class, and a hunter hack class (not QHs). The reason that it is sometimes geared towards AQHA is because the AQHA offers competitions at Congress and Worlds. No other association does that for the 4-H. However, Nationals and Southern Regionals often are not geared toward the AQHA.

I'm actually moderating a district horsebowl competition in NC tomorrow.

I am not a know it all. Nor did I claim to be. There are a lot of things that I don't know about. Thanks for the snarkiness. I really appreciate.

The point is moot anyway because two of the three judges that I have trained under have not held AQHA cards. One is strictly a hunter judge. And Quarter Horses jump 3'6". They are not that different, and a lot of them move in between the A circuit and the AQHA circuit over fences with a lot of success. I haven't ever shown AQHA, but I have certainly shown at rated shows.

Like I said, I will talk to two HUNTER JUDGES, one who has an R card without the pressure of being in the show ring and having to go with the fads, and I will get back to you tomorrow. I have a feeling that this is not going to be their idea of a daisy cutter.

If the horse has won in the pregreens, then that is fantastic and his connections should be thankful that they have such a nice horse, which he is... He must have a nice bascule with feet up to his eyeballs.

However, it still won't change my opinion about what an ideal horse should look like. Or the fact that there are other horses judges prefer if he isn't winning every hack class.

How old is Crown Point? He looks really young. And he's already showing in the pregreens!?

[CBoylen]

I completely missed that earlier. I would love to see a video of him now hacking and jumping a course and see how he has developed with age and training. Does anybody know how he is bred?
Heh, he's by DeNiro. :lol:

He showed last year in the 3' pregreens a little but wasn't very mature. I don't think he's shown since then.

[gypsymare]

AQHA HUS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHRqDeaKS4&feature=related

This is a completely different style of riding and type of horse, not to be ever remotely confused with USEF hunters. Yes they are both called hunters. That is where the similarity ends. It is personal preference as to which is "better" but you can't compare horses across the divide. Each governing body is looking for something different. So you don't like warmbloods? Fine. Stick to AQHA/APHA shows, but realize that there is a huge difference.

If you can stick a Western saddle on it and not completely embarrass yourself in a WP class then it does not belong anywhere near a USEF show ring.

If it's tracking up more than an inch and you can't ride it on the buckle in a 4mph trot, it's not going to place in AQHA/APHA. Different strokes for different folks. Just realize that your 4-H/AQHA judging experience does not translate to experience in the USEF realm.

I'm not breed prejudice. I have a lovely Paint. Some day I will breed her to a champion warmblood. Don't all gasp in horror at once, now.

note: I am NOT saying quarter horses can't win in USEF competitions but it will have to play and look the part!

[3Dogs]

gyspymare - you sure those horses aren't on Xanax?????:lol: Yowzer.

But I dream of some of those World Congress prizes - yikes! Trailers, buckets of dough, those GREAT belt buckles :yes:

[Filly85']

gyspymare - you sure those horses aren't on Xanax?????:lol: Yowzer.

But I dream of some of those World Congress prizes - yikes! Trailers, buckets of dough, those GREAT belt buckles :yes:

I actually won a world championship buckle win my team won the horsebowl competition at Quater Horse Worlds. That thing is huge!!! They also gave each of the team members a leather world championship jacket! The AQHA is very generous. Just for winning the individual title at Congress in hippology, I won $350 to spend in the tack shops at Congress. Plus, my team got to take home those awesome medals and that awesome congress trophy!!!

I want to own a QH that I can it take to Worlds one day in either the hunter over fences classes or show jumping. I want one of those cool trophies, plus all the extra cash that they win!

[Filly85']

AQHA HUS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHRqDeaKS4&feature=related

This is a completely different style of riding and type of horse, not to be ever remotely confused with USEF hunters. Yes they are both called hunters. That is where the similarity ends. It is personal preference as to which is "better" but you can't compare horses across the divide. Each governing body is looking for something different. So you don't like warmbloods? Fine. Stick to AQHA/APHA shows, but realize that there is a huge difference.

If you can stick a Western saddle on it and not completely embarrass yourself in a WP class then it does not belong anywhere near a USEF show ring.

If it's tracking up more than an inch and you can't ride it on the buckle in a 4mph trot, it's not going to place in AQHA/APHA. Different strokes for different folks. Just realize that your 4-H/AQHA judging experience does not translate to experience in the USEF realm.

I'm not breed prejudice. I have a lovely Paint. Some day I will breed her to a champion warmblood. Don't all gasp in horror at once, now.

note: I am NOT saying quarter horses can't win in USEF competitions but it will have to play and look the part!

Who said anything about AQHA under saddle horses or not liking WBs in this thread?

[PonyHunterz]

Heres my mare i just sold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNhufz3QpM0

Is that the psycho WB you couldn't handle??? She looks lovely to me.:D

[sansibar]

The judges have decided. These horses show and hack in front of actual judges. Crown Point usually won in the pregreens. Carbardino usually barely gets a ribbon unless there are more ribbons than horses.

Well he clean swept both of the hacks at the Candian Royal Winter fair, and won or pinned top 4 in almost every class and won 3 and pinned second in 3 against some pretty tough competition in the 4' combined and amateur 36 +. And I believe he finished 5 in the combined working hunter and 1 in the amateur 36 +

[3Dogs]

Filly85 - first off, I am jealous of your buckle - congratulations!! Second, I too would love a horse that could win at the Worlds, and THIRD, heck,girl, you live in my town!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

[foursocks]

Well, if you look at those HUS horses and see awesome movement, you probably aren't going to like the show hunter movement.

I look at them and wonder why anyone would want a horse to go around wth its nose on the ground with that weird topline broken at the withers. I don't think: wow, what great movement! I think, as others have said, that suspension is a plus because we are looking at suitability to jump, not just how well it can shuffle around pointing its toes.

[Filly85']

Filly85 - first off, I am jealous of your buckle - congratulations!! Second, I too would love a horse that could win at the Worlds, and THIRD, heck,girl, you live in my town!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

Well, I'm jealous that you actually have a farm in this lovely area! I just go to college here, and if I could afford a farm in the surrounding area, I sure would. Chapel Hill is wonderful. There may not be a better college town than the one here under these bright blue Carolina skies (pun intended):lol:

[naters]

AQHA HUS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHRqDeaKS4&feature=related

This is a completely different style of riding and type of horse, not to be ever remotely confused with USEF hunters. Yes they are both called hunters. That is where the similarity ends. It is personal preference as to which is "better" but you can't compare horses across the divide. Each governing body is looking for something different. So you don't like warmbloods? Fine. Stick to AQHA/APHA shows, but realize that there is a huge difference.

If you can stick a Western saddle on it and not completely embarrass yourself in a WP class then it does not belong anywhere near a USEF show ring.

If it's tracking up more than an inch and you can't ride it on the buckle in a 4mph trot, it's not going to place in AQHA/APHA. Different strokes for different folks. Just realize that your 4-H/AQHA judging experience does not translate to experience in the USEF realm.

I'm not breed prejudice. I have a lovely Paint. Some day I will breed her to a champion warmblood. Don't all gasp in horror at once, now.

note: I am NOT saying quarter horses can't win in USEF competitions but it will have to play and look the part!


Totally agree with you!!!

Off topic a little, and regarding the video above: Doesn't the Aqha organization brag about how they now DO penalize a horse carring its poll below the withers ??? That horse seemed to have it below the withers the whole time, and did not seem to be penalized!!!

[Dune]

Wow, it's nice to know that us DQ's have nothin' on you HP's! :lol::winkgrin::D (meant in good fun):yes:

[Filly85']

Totally agree with you!!!

Off topic a little, and regarding the video above: Doesn't the Aqha organization brag about how they now DO penalize a horse carring its poll below the withers ??? That horse seemed to have it below the withers the whole time, and did not seem to be penalized!!!

I believe anyone can show at Congress and that you don't need to accumulate points. To get into Worlds, you need a certain number of points. That was at Congress in round 5....no where near even the semi-finals, and definitely not what wins. The judges penalize them by not placing them.

In fact, the horse that got second in Congress juvenile HUS one year was a horse named Indian Artifact. Not only did that horse get registered into the AWS, but he also won the inspection.

This is what wins in green hunter over fences at the world show (you'll have to scroll down on the page to watch the video)...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/greenworkinghunter.html

That same horse above also won the junior hunter hack at the world show
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/jrhunterhack.html

Here is the senior hunter hack winner at the world show...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/srhunterhack.html

This is what wins in hunter under saddle at the world show...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/amhunterundersaddle.html

And this is my favorite one!
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/seniorworkinghunter.html

A far cry from that video that horse that gypsy posted.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I actually won a world championship buckle win my team won the horsebowl competition at Quater Horse Worlds. That thing is huge!!! They also gave each of the team members a leather world championship jacket! The AQHA is very generous. Just for winning the individual title at Congress in hippology, I won $350 to spend in the tack shops at Congress. Plus, my team got to take home those awesome medals and that awesome congress trophy!!!

I want to own a QH that I can it take to Worlds one day in either the hunter over fences classes or show jumping. I want one of those cool trophies, plus all the extra cash that they win!

I'm sorry, I didn't want to chime in, but this explains a lot. The sheer fact that the woman that won the "US" class is doing a victory gallop while neckreining says a lot about how comparable this whole spectacle is to the rated hunter ring.

[Filly85']

I'm sorry, I didn't want to chime in, but this explains a lot.

Something tells me that you didn't read the whole thread. What exactly does it explain? That I won educational horse competitions at Congress and AQHA world? So what? A lot of people have. I have never once shown at an AQHA competition, but I can't help it that people are so ignorant about non-WB breeds either.

Who wouldn't want a six figure world champion AQHA over fences horse? So you're going to tell me that you don't want a dual AQHA World Champion Senior Hunter Over Fences and A circuit champion just because it's a QH that won at Worlds?

I mean, people often cry in these videos that I am watching when their horses win at worlds. Who wouldn't want to experience that kind of joy, happiness, and sense of accomplishment?

[Aven]

I believe anyone can show at Congress and that you don't need to accumulate points. To get into Worlds, you need a certain number of points. That was at Congress in round 5....no where near even the semi-finals, and definitely not what wins. The judges penalize them by not placing them.

In fact, the horse that got second in Congress juvenile HUS one year was a horse named Indian Artifact. Not only did that horse get registered into the AWS, but he also won the inspection.

This is what wins in green hunter over fences at the world show (you'll have to scroll down on the page to watch the video)...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/greenworkinghunter.html

That same horse above also won the junior hunter hack at the world show
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/jrhunterhack.html

Here is the senior hunter hack winner at the world show...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/srhunterhack.html

This is what wins in hunter under saddle at the world show...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/amhunterundersaddle.html

And this is my favorite one!
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/seniorworkinghunter.html

A far cry from that video that horse that gypsy posted.

I wouldn't call it a far cry. The last one looked nice to my eyes. But the other rounds all had times with the poll lower than the withers.. even we doing a course. Not AS low as the previous horse posted. But still with the floppy reins head hanging sort of way of going. Now this is not really an insult.. I worked at an AQHA barn and that is how the horses even the babies went when they frolicked in the paddock.. heads down not tracking up much. So this is their natural way of going.. and obviously its what the AQHA people like. Its just not what the open hunter world is looking for. To me it does look like sped up WP more than the hunters I see at 'regular' shows.

[gypsymare]

This is an American Warmblood, too, but you can bet he won't be pinning in the hunters any time soon.
http://www.nicopintostallion.com/nicotrotH002.jpg
AWS is to the European registries what the ACA is to the AKC. We don't care what it is as long as you pay us to register it.

Indian Artifacts is a lovely horse in his own right, no doubt with different training he might have done well in many venues and he certainly excelled in the AQHA realm. But the fact remains that his winning ride at Congress, unchanged, would place last at a AA USEF show. This is no jab at his quality, but you are comparing two entirely different disciplines. Just as you would judge a Shire conformation class to a different standard than a Belgian conformation class. Are they both draft conformation classes? Yes, but the similarity ends there.

You have yet to realize the difference or even acknowledge that there is a difference in the judging between the two organizations and therein lies your ignorance. You may have been taught that "hunters" should not show suspension, but you have been drilled in the school of 4-H/AQHA. USEF hunters WANT suspension, impulsion, big, low scopey strides. Neither is wrong, it just has its own place and it's different.

[Troispony]

Back on topic, I think this horse has a pretty nice daisy cutter canter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrDeasG7bgE :)

[Filly85']

Back on topic, I think this horse has a pretty nice daisy cutter canter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrDeasG7bgE :)

That horse is lovely. Although we didn't see the horse trot, another great example of little suspension in the canter. Crown Point doesn't have a lot of suspension in the canter either though.

[Filly85']

This is an American Warmblood, too, but you can bet he won't be pinning in the hunters any time soon.
http://www.nicopintostallion.com/nicotrotH002.jpg
AWS is to the European registries what the ACA is to the AKC. We don't care what it is as long as you pay us to register it.

Indian Artifacts is a lovely horse in his own right, no doubt with different training he might have done well in many venues and he certainly excelled in the AQHA realm. But the fact remains that his winning ride at Congress, unchanged, would place last at a AA USEF show. This is no jab at his quality, but you are comparing two entirely different disciplines. Just as you would judge a Shire conformation class to a different standard than a Belgian conformation class. Are they both draft conformation classes? Yes, but the similarity ends there.

You have yet to realize the difference or even acknowledge that there is a difference in the judging between the two organizations and therein lies your ignorance. You may have been taught that "hunters" should not show suspension, but you have been drilled in the school of 4-H/AQHA. USEF hunters WANT suspension, impulsion, big, low scopey strides. Neither is wrong, it just has its own place and it's different.

Even though Indian Artifacts was nice for his purpose, but he is built a little too downhill for me like most of the other AQHA HUS horses. The horse that you posted still was a far cry movement wise and quality wise from a horse like Indian Artifact and from the AQHA hunter over fences horses, which was what I posted a video of in the first place. I don't even know how HUS horses were brought up because they are more like western pleasure animals than hunters. And I can't believe you think I am so ignorant to say that Indian Artifact would win at an A show. OF COURSE NOT. Please, don't insult my intelligence.

I give up. I have not been drilled in the world of 4-H/AQHA. For heaven's sakes, I am a learner hunter judge. That means I go to and am a learner judge at hunter shows. While I like other disciplines, they really aren't my thing. I like hunters. I used to show and win at rated shows before I went to college and my horse was injured...perhaps that doesn't mean anything. I have never even shown at an AQHA or gone as a learner judge to an AQHA show. Perhaps you missed the part where I have trained under an R judge.

The exhibitors want dressagy suspension, which isn't correct for the hunter ring. That is my point. But, what is and should be winning usually doesn't really have very much suspension in the hack classes at the hunter shows. A horse like Cabardino or the WB that I posted is that happy medium to me. They have impulsion, rhythm, and a huge way of going, but they both have minimal suspension at the trot. Cabardino uses his knee more than I would like to see, but he is overall a lovely horse.

Take a look at this WB that I posted a video of in an earlier post in this thread.

That is the kind of trot I like, and that is the kind of trot that should be winning and most likely will be if someone gets lucky enough to import him here.

The only reason that I posted the video of the AQHA horse is because it is a cute horse that doesn't use its knee. I don't even know how this turned into an "I'm an all AQHA person so I must not know anything" argument. I posted a video of a cute moving QH and I got this? Boy, there definitely is some breed prejudice going on here.

[Filly85']

She wasn't referring to you she was referring to one of the videos. I personally would not take an AQHA champ in whatever. Why? They aren't "my thing". Same reason why the woman who owns the barn where I board would not take my horse or some champion hunter because her thing is Appaloosas and running barrels. Doesn't mean the horses are crap it just means they aren't what everyone is looking for or happen to like.

Yes, she did. Look at the orginal quote in my post from her. She went back and changed it.

A few years ago, the AQHA World Champion over Fences horse was also the USEF Hunter of the Year I do believe...it won something major...I can't really remember the horse. Someone can refresh my memory. Sorry, that you feel that way because most QH's nowadays have a ton of TB breeding in them. It's a shame that people are blinded like that.

That would be like me saying that I wouldn't own Crown Point in whatever because WBs aren't my thing. I don't care what breed the horse is...a good horse is a good horse, and I would own and ride any horse that I like personality wise and that wins. I'm not going to pass up an awesome hunter over fences horse because of its breed.

I think it is also because I am able to look beyond how a horse has been trained in the case of a lot of AQHA horses and look at the actual quality of the horse and what he could become with different training.

What you all are missing is that I do think Crown Point is a nice horse. He just does not have ideal hunter movement at the trot. That doesn't mean he is not going to go on to have a wonderful career because less than ideal moving horses have, and he is a well above average mover.

Someone I know once said that Rox Dene didn't have a wonderful trot, but boy could that mare canter and jump the moon. If this person is correct, her less than ideal trot didn't stop her as that mare was absolutely brillant otherwise. The canter is really the most important gait. I dare say (because everyone has a different opinion), I have heard that she was the best there ever was and if the pictures say anything about the horse, she was...I have never seen too many horses jump like that. It's absolutely incredible.

[sportassage]

I'm sorry, I didn't want to chime in, but this explains a lot. The sheer fact that the woman that won the "US" class is doing a victory gallop while neckreining says a lot about how comparable this whole spectacle is to the rated hunter ring.

I know people who hunt and prefer horses who also know how to neck rein. Now, if hunters is supposed to simulate a hunt than wouldn't that also be an acceptable tool?? just curious........... and obviously you wouldn't need to be "showing" like that, but just to have the horse trained to do that you would think would come in handy.
(is probably going to get flamed....... begins to slam head against wall for asking this question!!) :dead:

[twobays]

Sorry off topic a bit.

I'm not all-knowing and all-important, but I am pretty important:lol: especially if I decide to save lives for a living one day...either horses or humans.



:winkgrin: Haha....ok, Filly85...ok. :lol:

[clearound]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;3879603]

Which is why I am considering breeding my G-line mare (who moves "hunterish" but I do dressage with) to Dacaprio.

QUOTE]


Perfect Pony - Here is my hunter by DaCaprio. Good luck with your breeding. I could not recommend him more highly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlJoFhAKeMY&feature=channel_page


http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30326152&id=1051262893

[MLP]

AQHA HUS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHRqDeaKS4&feature=related

This is a completely different style of riding and type of horse, not to be ever remotely confused with USEF hunters. Yes they are both called hunters. That is where the similarity ends. It is personal preference as to which is "better" but you can't compare horses across the divide. Each governing body is looking for something different. So you don't like warmbloods? Fine. Stick to AQHA/APHA shows, but realize that there is a huge difference.

If you can stick a Western saddle on it and not completely embarrass yourself in a WP class then it does not belong anywhere near a USEF show ring.

If it's tracking up more than an inch and you can't ride it on the buckle in a 4mph trot, it's not going to place in AQHA/APHA. Different strokes for different folks. Just realize that your 4-H/AQHA judging experience does not translate to experience in the USEF realm.

I'm not breed prejudice. I have a lovely Paint. Some day I will breed her to a champion warmblood. Don't all gasp in horror at once, now.

note: I am NOT saying quarter horses can't win in USEF competitions but it will have to play and look the part!

First off, the horse "showcased" for as much as I could watch, the chestnut with the white on it, is NOT a good mover for the USEF rated hunter and is LAME, head bobbing lame why is that good. Sad if you ask me!

[dags]

First off, the horse "showcased" for as much as I could watch, the chestnut with the white on it, is NOT a good mover for the USEF rated hunter and is LAME, head bobbing lame why is that good. Sad if you ask me!

Thank you. Yes, lame. Painful to even watch.

What you all are missing is that I do think Crown Point is a nice horse. He just does not have ideal hunter movement at the trot.

I think what our point is, we do not agree with what you think is "ideal". Nor am I particularly thrilled with a future judge arriving on the platform with such one-sided conviction- right or wrong. If you plan to go about changing how hunters go in this country, you're going to need more than A shows in NC to convince me your way is the right way. Even then, if you start knocking a horse for suspension, I'm bailing for the jumper ring. Out of everything I cannot understand why you are so anti-suspension??? What is wrong with suspension? Form follows function and all.

Watch the lack of hock use in that AQHA HUS winner. That's where suspension comes from, the hocks. That lack an impulsioned hind end is exactly why their Green Working Hunters are 2'9".

[GettingBack]

I looked at the vid, and he does appear to be lame. What I think everyone is talking about though (and you have to ignore the "way of going", if you picked up that horse's head and pushed him forward, he'd likely move his legs the same, but stretch farther and look more USEF huntery) is the way he almost drags his front toes along the ground, like he's pouring his legs across the ground.

To be honest, I don't prefer Scott's horse, though he does remind me of some of the cutest and best moving ponies I've ever known. It's freakish to me, overexaggerated. His canter is so stiff-legged it looks uncomfortable. BUT, that being said, he is a *wow* mover for the hack class - I'd certainly expect to see him pinned highly. I'm not saying he's not a fantastic horse - he's certainly out of my price range (unless I seriously hit the lottery), but it's just not my personal preference.

The suspension vs. lack of suspension is an interesting one. Suspension comes from behind (as you all well know) and often horses that push well behind have quite a bit of hock action. One of the nicest horses I've ever owned (not for the hunter ring) had a TON of hock action, but literally floated across the ground - lots of air time. It was my impression of reading all of the classics that this type of action is very correct in terms of riding, but not efficient for the horse, hence the lack of "appropriateness" in the hunter ring.

[onwego]

Sorry off topic a bit.

I'm not all-knowing and all-important, but I am pretty important:lol: especially if I decide to save lives for a living one day...either horses or humans.



?????

[lesson junkie]

over on the Racing forum there is a wonderful short piece of video of Secretariat galloping in his paddock at Claiborne. Daisy cutting and suspension at speed, no less!

[pony grandma]

over on the Racing forum there is a wonderful short piece of video of Secretariat galloping in his paddock at Claiborne. Daisy cutting and suspension at speed, no less!

There was a video tape made back in the 70's (sure wish it was available again!) of the efficiency of Secretariat's movement. Best tape ever made analyzing movement and confirmation structure.

I agree best with the poster who said that it's like porn - you'll know it when you see it. It's when the horse looks soft and floats with a cadence and rhythm while covering ground and with balance. The head cannot go below level - the purpose is so the horse can 'see' a fence or else, like the western world, you defy the function of the word 'hunter.' A horse cannot lift it's legs and shoulders with it's head between it's knees. YOU go into that position and try to lift YOUR leg!

I feel sorry for all the ignorance and the loss of the true hunter hack. It is sad, so I choose not to ever go there. I remain a diehard of old-fashioned hunter beauty.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

Something tells me that you didn't read the whole thread. What exactly does it explain? That I won educational horse competitions at Congress and AQHA world? So what? A lot of people have. I have never once shown at an AQHA competition, but I can't help it that people are so ignorant about non-WB breeds either.

Who wouldn't want a six figure world champion AQHA over fences horse? So you're going to tell me that you don't want a dual AQHA World Champion Senior Hunter Over Fences and A circuit champion just because it's a QH that won at Worlds?

I mean, people often cry in these videos that I am watching when their horses win at worlds. Who wouldn't want to experience that kind of joy, happiness, and sense of accomplishment?

I am truly enjoying this, because you seem to falling deeper and deeper into a hole here. As many people here have pointed out, no, I would *not* want a "six-figure" QH because I don't aspire to *show* on the AQHA circuit. It's not because the horse won at worlds, it's because I have no use for a QH that has been trained to go in a manner that wins at worlds. Perhaps there have been a handful of QHs that are nationally competitive in both the AQHA and USEF rings, but they are few and far between. Perfect example in most of the videos you posted- only one of those horses would be even close to what is considered desirable in the rated hunter ring.

I'm going to be beating a dead horse here, but you're making yourself look rather silly. Crown Point is a disgustingly good mover, won the hack consistently in very competitive company when he was showing. Those results don't lie. Anyone with an educated eye can look at that horse go and state exactly why he's winning the hacks- even those here who've stated they don't particularly like his style can put it quite eloquently that it's clear this horse is the hack winner. You, on the other hand, chimed in with "I can't believe you don't think my horse is a daisy cutter" (it's not, or at least certainly wasn't in that video) and "[Crown Point] is not a daisy cutter".

You're debating statements of fact with a large crowd of people who weren't trained to look for AQHA-type hunters. Many who have spent a majority of their lifetimes in the rated hunter ring either winning hacks or picking the hack winner. I would love to point out the identities of some of the people you're arguing with, but won't because it's been their choice to keep that to themselves up to this point. But I'm sure none of them would argue with your opinion of judging an AQHA hunter class- that seems to be what you're doing here.

[scpezold]

AQHA HUS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHRqDeaKS4&feature=related


Is this horse favoring in his front end? He looks ouchy to me. Anyone else notice or is it just me (usually it is just me :lol:)?

When I bought my 11yo TB and had him vetted the vet mentioned he was a daisy cutter. I knew he was toed out and "base narrow" so I thought she was referring to that (a flaw in his conformation). I was mentioning it to someone else and they told me a "daisy cutter" was a good thing. Now that I sort of have a better understanding of what a "daisy cutter" looks like; I would say my guy is more of a daisy "trimmer" and can be a daisy "stomper" when being a PITA:cool:.

[2boys]

Is this horse favoring in his front end? He looks ouchy to me. Anyone else notice or is it just me (usually it is just me :lol:)?

When I bought my 11yo TB and had him vetted the vet mentioned he was a daisy cutter. I knew he was toed out and "base narrow" so I thought she was referring to that (a flaw in his conformation). I was mentioning it to someone else and they told me a "daisy cutter" was a good thing. Now that I sort of have a better understanding of what a "daisy cutter" looks like; I would say my guy is more of a daisy "trimmer" and can be a daisy "stomper" when being a PITA:cool:.

See top of this page. A few people have mentioned this too. It looks to be right front to me?

[scpezold]

Oops, sorry guys. Read the thread last night and did not shut computer down.

Obviously did not "refresh" neither when I went to respond :rolleyes:.

Was wondering why no one had "caught" that and thought my eyes were deceiving me (or maybe I was seeing what a true daisy cutter looks like ;)).

[Dinah-do]

Could anyone tell me how a person gets a Quarter Horse to look like a greyhound?

[LookinSouth]

Could anyone tell me how a person gets a Quarter Horse to look like a greyhound?


I'm no expert but my guess would be lots of work traveling around in circles on the forehand. If a horse is never asked to rock back on it's hocks or use it's hind end properly then it very likely will not develop those muscles properly. Alot of people will blame it on crossing with the TB but my horse is a 3/4 TB/ paint cross. Trust me, there is nothing grey hound about him nor any other properly trained and bred Appendix I have seen.

My idea of a QH is a horse with a solid, strong hind end motor that can put most breeds to shame in that department. There is a reason the QH can beat the TB off the line and win the 1/4 mile race and it ain't in the front end.

The horses shown in the HUS AQHA vids on this thread are NOT my idea of a good QH. Neck rein at the gallop or not no way would I be taking one them out HUNTING. My horse can neck rein and yes it is a desirable trait for the hunt field. That said, if you have a horse that shuffles around on it's front end riding XC across uneven ground your both bound to land on your face.

This ISH mare had the best trot I have ever seen. This picture doesn't do her justice but boy did she flick those toes and she was the first horse I've ridden with that could out trot my gelding out in the open.

She is *my* idea of Daisy cutter trot that would be useful and ideal for the hunt field. Some of what I see winning in the USEF hunter ring today is not. Riding her was like gliding on air, she could jump the moon and was bombproof out riding in the open.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2911683760101555132lDFunu

[Equino]

I think the "greyhound look" has more to do with the leanness and tucked up body (like a tiny waist) that's desirable for QH HUS, as well as a rounding of the back, almost like an arch. At least, I have used that exact phrase to describe that look.

http://senioraces.org/williespage/2Greyhounds.jpg
http://www.skybluewalker.com/horse.asp?Id=368

[gypsymare]

OK, this is just silly. Tell me mechanically how you expect to get a 12' canter stride out of a 16hh horse without suspension? That'd be one looooong horse. If he lacks natual suspension at the canter he's going to look fast/rushed through the line trying to make up that distance which does not present a pretty picture.

[CBoylen]

Well he clean swept both of the hacks at the Candian Royal Winter fair, and won or pinned top 4 in almost every class and won 3 and pinned second in 3 against some pretty tough competition in the 4' combined and amateur 36 +. And I believe he finished 5 in the combined working hunter and 1 in the amateur 36 +
I should have said that I meant U.S. results since he shows on both circuits. I only see him show in the states and do not regularly keep track of Canadian results. Sorry for the confusion.

[Dinah-do]

I have seen some of those Q H HUS up close and they look ill. No top line and just plain anorexic. Q H are easy keepers and no ammount of riding could make a horse look so awful. Horrible thing to do to a really nice breed.

[Equino]

Honestly, QH show barns are like elsewhere-some are good and some are deplorable. I was at a QH show farm last fall, they have World Champions in HUS and Pleasure Driving. All the horses looked very content, healthy and even on the "fat" side. They all had plenty of hay in front of them 24/7, trainer said showing is hard on them, and since they are grazing animals, it is more natural to keep hay in front of them when they can't be on grass. I didn't see any evidence of torture devices. I was there for four days and watched them work with the horses. My biggest gripe was they had very little T/O time. The babies, broodmares and retirees had huge fields with lots of grass, but the show horses were out in smaller lots, some grass, some dry lots.

Again, much like other show barns, regardless of discipline.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wL0G0-wBY)is a video of Cabardino, which is a good example. There is also some footage of the flat class, where there are several horses that are also daisy cutters but don't seem to be able to match Cabardino's length of stride.

I love Cabardino!

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Entourage - your original reply is about the most thick headed thing i've heard in a long time :lol:! You wouldn't take a QH because it's "not your thing". Please! Any horse that's winning a class nicely and in good company at the (whatever rating of shows you do) better be "your thing" sure as hell would be mine. Not all AQHA horses are trained to go in the way you described, capable of it? Perhaps? I know of a handful of horses who win both at AQHA Congress, Worlds, and can go over to Wellington, or Thermal whichever they choose duirng the winter and place just as great there. We're talking about the hack.

[pony grandma]

All right ... this debate is about as boring now as watching one of those AQHA HUS classes. Let's turn up the volume on the organ music and everybody skate. :D

[Anselcat]

All right ... this debate is about as boring now as watching one of those AQHA HUS classes. Let's turn up the volume on the organ music and everybody skate. :D

:lol::lol::lol:

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

All right ... this debate is about as boring now as watching one of those AQHA HUS classes. Let's turn up the volume on the organ music and everybody skate. :D

HA HA HA

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Why thank you. In that case I am happy to be thick headed! I don't show QH's so why would I buy an AQHA trained horse? I wouldn't. I go for a specific look. I have yet to see a QH that moves the way a nice WB does. I did once, and I attempted to purchase it. Same reason why people I know who do barrel races and show on breed circuits won't buy a hunter. What use would my friend who shows on the Appy circuit have for a Hanoverian? Same use I'd have for an AQHA hunter. None. I don't buy horses to keep as pasture puffs and neither does she. And yes I'm talking about the hack, aka the HUS way of going. What would be the point in me buying a horse if I didn't like it's way of going or didn't show on that specific circuit where it would be competitive?

MY point is that not every QH is going to go like the HUS horses you see on the AQHA circuit. So don't stereotype your statements, there are pleanty of warmbloods i'm sure you wouldn't consider buying too because they move like plow horses. Your statement is just a little sheltered. A breed of horse doesn't always suggest they do breed shows, so when you say "I don't show QH's so why would I buy an AQHA trained horse" - well you don't have to buy an AQHA trained horse, but you can certianly find a QH that isn't AQHA trained that may have the talent that your horse has or better. I have never seen your horse personally, if it's the on in your profile photo he's adorable but based on one photo looks no different than a lot of the newer bred QH's back at home. A daisy cutter is a daisy cutter, not all QH's go wither to poll, I don't even know how that can be a stereotype.

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

My statement is my opinion. Simple as that. I don't consider it sheltered. I simply wouldn't consider buying a QH because the majority I have seen do not fit my tastes. I won't buy something I won't enjoy and don't like seeing every day. I am aware there are QH's who move like WBs and vice versa. I have YET to see many of them pass through my area. Two or three at the most.

And you're entitled to an opinion. Let your statement "A majority I have seen" be key though. A majority, not all. If there was some big QH beating your horse every time out, and your horse was just not capable of placing above it, are you telling me that would still not be "your thing".

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Yup, still wouldn't. I have friends who show on and I have been to "big" QH shows. I can't stand to watch the under saddle classes for a reason. If a QH was beating my mare, kudos to them, I still wouldn't buy a QH. I chose my horse because I like everything about her, breed included and since I intend on getting a foal out of her in the future that did weigh on my decision. If you don't get what I'm saying, you don't get it. I don't expect everyone to understand but seems to me some of the people here do. FrenchFryTheEqHorse being a perfect example.

"I am truly enjoying this, because you seem to falling deeper and deeper into a hole here. As many people here have pointed out, no, I would *not* want a "six-figure" QH because I don't aspire to *show* on the AQHA circuit. It's not because the horse won at worlds, it's because I have no use for a QH that has been trained to go in a manner that wins at worlds. Perhaps there have been a handful of QHs that are nationally competitive in both the AQHA and USEF rings, but they are few and far between. Perfect example in most of the videos you posted- only one of those horses would be even close to what is considered desirable in the rated hunter ring."

She explains it perfectly.

Clearly you're not understanding me. For about the 3rd time, I am not talking about the QH trained to go like a HUS horse. I am talking about the quarter horse trained by God knows who, trained to go properly, just like your horse but better. I'm not saying that exists, but believe me it does. Sounds like you're just prejudice to the breed itself. I mean anyone who says that they wouldn't be interested in the horse that wins every time out hands down is just silly to me.

NOT EVERY QUARTER HORSE PERFORMS LIKE THE HUS HORSES YOU SEE AT THE "BIG QH SHOWS" SOME QUARTER HORSES KNOW HOW TO PERFORM LIKE A "REAL HORSE" THAT YOU SEE AT OUR USEF 'A' RATED HUNTER JUMPER SHOWS

If that wasn't clear I don't know what to tell you. I just think its so funny that people can't see past the HUS AQHA Quarter horse, those arent the only ones that exist.

Entourage, you should post a video of your horse! Then we can see a real daisy cutter! (i'm not trying to be sarcastic, i'm actually curious!)

[twobays]

Clearly you're not understanding me. For about the 3rd time, I am not talking about the QH trained to go like a HUS horse. I am talking about the quarter horse trained by God knows who, trained to go properly, just like your horse but better. I'm not saying that exists, but believe me it does. Sounds like you're just prejudice to the breed itself.

NOT EVERY QUARTER HORSE PERFORMS LIKE THE HUS HORSES YOU SEE AT THE "BIG QH SHOWS" SOME QUARTER HORSES KNOW HOW TO PERFORM LIKE A "REAL HORSE" THAT YOU SEE AT OUR USEF 'A' RATED HUNTER JUMPER SHOWS

If that wasn't clear I don't know what to tell you. I just think its so funny that people can't see past the HUS AQHA Quarter horse, those arent the only ones that exist.

Entourage, you should post a video of your horse! Then we can see a real daisy cutter!


Why does this matter so much? If Entourage doesn't like QHs thats her business...She's already said that QHs are capable of being good movers, so whats the problem if she chooses not to spend HER money on QHs?

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

Why does this matter so much? If Entourage doesn't like QHs thats her business...She's already said that QHs are capable of being good movers, so whats the problem if she chooses not to spend HER money on QHs?

It's not a PROBLEM, shall never create an issue for me when I log off this computer and go back to my house. I'm just extremely curious, now that I'm in conversation with someone who is clearly not a fan of the breed, i've always wondered WHY exactly. Beyond the "they're just not my thing", unless that's seriousley the final answer. I am not trying to convince her to go buy one, I don't even own one myself! I've had warmbloods and a few thoroughbreds my whole life.

Entourage - understand, i'm not taunting you or trying to insult your taste, as I said the horse seen in your default is very nice looking, granted it's not really a full photo. I'm just very curious of your disliking for a breed.

[sportassage]

It's not a PROBLEM, shall never create an issue for me when I log off this computer and go back to my house. I'm just extremely curious, now that I'm in conversation with someone who is clearly not a fan of the breed, i've always wondered WHY exactly. Beyond the "they're just not my thing", unless that's seriousley the final answer. I am not trying to convince her to go buy one, I don't even own one myself! I've had warmbloods and a few thoroughbreds my whole life.

Entourage - understand, i'm not taunting you or trying to insult your taste, as I said the horse seen in your default is very nice looking, granted it's not really a full photo. I'm just very curious of your disliking for a breed.

There does seem to be a lot of QH bashing on this forum and I too would like to understand why others dislike the breed for being a breed and not for some bad training faults. Besides, not all QH, Paints and Apps are "trained" to be heavy on the forehand. It just takes a few morons to ruin a good thing.
I always thought that if a horse moved liked a hunter, jumped liked a hunter and just plain acted like a hunter it was a hunter despite the breed.
So back to the main question.....
A daisy cutter is______________________?
:winkgrin:

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

A lot of misreading going on here! I don't dislike QH's. I like them quite a bit in fact. I just won't buy one as a hunter. I only have one horse and that's all I can afford and that's ok with me. All I said was that QH's that have been trained as AQHA HUS horses are not my thing. The way they go in those classes is what I dislike. Not the breed. I am aware there are a lot of QH's out there who have been trained a different way and are built differently and those are lovely animals. I stated previously in this topic my mare is in no way a daisy cutter and I'd never pretend she was. She has lots of knee and moves very dressag-ey at the trot. Her canter however and her no nonsense attitude about jumping are the reasons why I purchased her since I'm an ammy who's been out of the saddle for a while, and as her trainer would say I can always skip the hack! Didn't mean to offend you or get anyone riled up!

Gotcha! Well she looks lovely, I'm a sucker for chrome.

[sportassage]

I agree that I am totally confused now, but I am glad this all seems to be ending on a good note!!! :D

[Equino]

My statement is my opinion. Simple as that. I don't consider it sheltered. I simply wouldn't consider buying a QH because the majority I have seen do not fit my tastes. I won't buy something I won't enjoy and don't like seeing every day. I am aware there are QH's who move like WBs and vice versa. I have YET to see many of them pass through my area. Two or three at the most.

There are quite a few QHs being passed off as WB's that "oh no! Their papers have been lost!" I tried out a few horses at this one sale farm, and because the owner knew I had some friends who showed on the QH circuit, she was honest with me about their breeding and even went as far as saying some of them were being advertised as "WB-types." I even saw two of those same QHs a few months later that the new owners were saying are WBs. Crazy. But then again, the ones I saw would've been laughed out of the AQHA HUS ring. Also, those being passed off as "WBs" were being marketed as suitable for showing in 3' divisions, not the "A" rated divisions, where suitability is a big factor when buying 3' ammy/childrens hunters.

There is a lot of nose turning upping when folks hear "QH" that's for sure. My friend has one for sale, really flashy, jumps super round and is a decent mover. Someone was really interested in him, she was a timid rider and he, despite being a 5 year old with limited mileage, carted her around a course, she liked his big white socks and friendly attitude, but when she asked about his breeding, my friend said all QH, no TB on papers and the lady's response was,"Oh. QH? I thought he was a WB cross. Thanks for your time." And this was the 2nd time she had been out to try him!

That all being said-I owned an appendix that I showed in the Adults and he did very well in the hack. He had a nice trot and was super consistent. The WB I have now is a much better jumper, has a much better canter and is overall a much nicer hunter, but he was much more of a daisy cutter mover at the trot-lots of reach through his shoulder and low to the ground, very little knee action if any. We used to joke his knees were fused. He had a greater shoulder angle where wither-shoulder-elbow meet, which I contributed to why he could trot so well. As we all know, that generally leads to not a lot of knee jerking, so while he was always square over fences, he never snapped those knees up as is desired with hunters.

[brummelhorsefarm]

This appeals to me personally:

Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4lKbWvgEm0)

:yes:

[leelee]

No it's not. Look at the suspension and the knee action. A daisy cutter does not use it's knee. A horse that uses it's knee like that one will not win a class that I am judging unless it has the biggest stride by far in the class. The influx of WB breeding has caused the hunter world to get way too dressagy in my opinion. I'm old school. I like a flat moving horse without knee action.

You're kidding? The horse is a fantastic mover. And if this horse doesn't closely match the definition, then your example certainly doesn't match.

Where's a video of that Count the Kisses pony when we need one?

[Gracious]

I believe anyone can show at Congress and that you don't need to accumulate points. To get into Worlds, you need a certain number of points. That was at Congress in round 5....no where near even the semi-finals, and definitely not what wins. The judges penalize them by not placing them.

In fact, the horse that got second in Congress juvenile HUS one year was a horse named Indian Artifact. Not only did that horse get registered into the AWS, but he also won the inspection.

This is what wins in green hunter over fences at the world show (you'll have to scroll down on the page to watch the video)...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/greenworkinghunter.html

That same horse above also won the junior hunter hack at the world show
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/jrhunterhack.html

Here is the senior hunter hack winner at the world show...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/srhunterhack.html

This is what wins in hunter under saddle at the world show...
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/amhunterundersaddle.html

And this is my favorite one!
http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/winning08/seniorworkinghunter.html

A far cry from that video that horse that gypsy posted.


The last horse, GI Jazz, used to win all over MI on the hunter/jumper circuit when he was still with David Warner. He is lovely to watch.

[unclewiggly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLvnbDget2M

Black appendix pins @ devon:yes:

[dags]

While I agree trot photos can lie like the devil, here's a pretty nice example where the leading leg is still moving up and has not reached full extension (where everyone looks great).

Of course it is a pony, but it's far easier to find a daisy cutter in that ring. See the flat knee and fetlock, and I'd probably call that a good 4" clearance in front . . . but it is certainly not a bouncy, overly suspended pony at all. Nice flat mover, and what I call a daisy cutter.

http://www.exchangehj.com/listings/horses/rollingwoodsGiveEmL_files/rollingwoods03_lg.jpg

[Pony+ an inch]

While I agree trot photos can lie like the devil, here's a pretty nice example where the leading leg is still moving up and has not reached full extension (where everyone looks great).

Of course it is a pony, but it's far easier to find a daisy cutter in that ring. See the flat knee and fetlock, and I'd probably call that a good 4" clearance in front . . . but it is certainly not a bouncy, overly suspended pony at all. Nice flat mover, and what I call a daisy cutter.

http://www.exchangehj.com/listings/horses/rollingwoodsGiveEmL_files/rollingwoods03_lg.jpg

Hi, I'll take two, please. Send to KY pronto. thanks!

[foursocks]

Some of the best movers I've sat on- hack winners, including my last junior hunter- were uncomfortable. Huge, sweepy trotting and a canter with that lovely, flowing back-to-front impulsion can be bouncy. So, why would you not want suspension? Some of the best movers combine floaty movement with a bit of forward bounce, I think.

[pleasedaspunch]

Here are some good examples.....
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2562853160064985027GmQScX

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2593282630064985027qfiASe

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2216729270064985027MJYMVN

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2845269830064985027yTyVXW

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2245994560064985027BcSCzA

[2boys]

Here are some good examples.....
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2562853160064985027GmQScX

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2593282630064985027qfiASe

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2216729270064985027MJYMVN

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2845269830064985027yTyVXW

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2245994560064985027BcSCzA

That is a list of some very nice horses. :eek:

[Equino]

LOVE the bay and gray!!! :eek:

[pleasedaspunch]

LOVE the bay and gray!!! :eek:

The gray is Winter Castle i showed against him at Capitol Challenge he won the A/A hack out of 50 horses. Very very nice mover one of the best Ive ever personally showed against.

[clearound]

Jeanine and Winter Castle are beautiful to watch!

[J. Turner]

AQHA HUS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHRqDeaKS4&feature=related

This is a completely different style of riding and type of horse, not to be ever remotely confused with USEF hunters. Yes they are both called hunters. That is where the similarity ends. It is personal preference as to which is "better" but you can't compare horses across the divide. Each governing body is looking for something different. So you don't like warmbloods? Fine. Stick to AQHA/APHA shows, but realize that there is a huge difference.


OK ... that just doesn't look like what a hunter should be. Maybe call it English Pleasure. It seems a misnomer to call that "hunters."

What are the rules? Aren't they supposed to go forward???

[J. Turner]

I looked at the vid, and he does appear to be lame. What I think everyone is talking about though (and you have to ignore the "way of going", if you picked up that horse's head and pushed him forward, he'd likely move his legs the same, but stretch farther and look more USEF huntery) is the way he almost drags his front toes along the ground, like he's pouring his legs across the ground.

To be honest, I don't prefer Scott's horse, though he does remind me of some of the cutest and best moving ponies I've ever known. It's freakish to me, overexaggerated. His canter is so stiff-legged it looks uncomfortable. BUT, that being said, he is a *wow* mover for the hack class - I'd certainly expect to see him pinned highly. I'm not saying he's not a fantastic horse - he's certainly out of my price range (unless I seriously hit the lottery), but it's just not my personal preference.

The suspension vs. lack of suspension is an interesting one. Suspension comes from behind (as you all well know) and often horses that push well behind have quite a bit of hock action. One of the nicest horses I've ever owned (not for the hunter ring) had a TON of hock action, but literally floated across the ground - lots of air time. It was my impression of reading all of the classics that this type of action is very correct in terms of riding, but not efficient for the horse, hence the lack of "appropriateness" in the hunter ring.

If that horse is Perfectionist I saw him go in the jrs in Jacksonville. Qualifying this statement that he is certainly not a bad jumper at all (I wouldn't throw him out of bed for eating crackers), he kind of threw himself over the jumps, slightly reachy and swung forelegs slightly to the side.

[GettingBack]

I revisited some of my classics last night (GM, Anna White Mullen, Littauer) and all of them say something about low efficient movement, they do want them pushing through from behind, but none mention suspension. They all mention this low efficient movement. So my guess is that the amount of suspension needed for these "uber-movers" to not trip and fall on their faces is not entirely correct according to the classics.

However, this is just an interpretation, and horses that moved like Scott's horse most likely didn't exist at that point in time, since the thoroughbred dominated at that point.

[Against all Odds]

What is it with hunter riders posting "forward". How in the world is that proper equitation? The video of Ballard riding shows her doing this "forward" posting trot. IMO, this goes right along with the "jump onto the neck" look which IMO is simply WRONG. Sorry to hijack the thread, it just irritates me to no end!

JumpingJack there have been tons of threads on this already, no point bringing it up again.

[Filly85']

Ok, so I talked to two different judges this weekend. I did not get a chance to talk to the other hunter judge that I know because she was busy this weekend.

One used to be an R judge on the circuit who quit because it required too much travel and she had a stable to run. You have to know people just to get certified. She was once asked to try out for the Olympic team in dressage back when she said "Americans didn't know how to ride dressage" (she was trained by German Olympians), and she has also ridden to Grand Prix show jumpers. The only reason she never went international was because she said she had a soft place in her heart and just couldn't do to a horse what is required at the top levels of the sport (it is very rough on the horses).

Another was a certified dressage judge (i don't know what level she is certified at) who is also certified to judge local hunter shows.

Both said hunters are so political. The dressage judge had a friend who tried to get her little r in the hunters recently. She said the woman was as good at judging horses as anyone, but they were giving her a hard time because they said "people from NC don't know anything"...haha.

They were both telling me all kinds of stories. It was great to be around such two wonderful horsemen, and it is always a humbling experience.

The hunter judge told me about what was called the "california tuck" back in either the 70s or 80s....I can't remember what she said. She said that hunters started getting too on the bit with their necks bent. She is a bold woman, and she would frequently go up to exhibitors who used the California tuck and tell them the following, "Why don't you all just go get a nice Arabian if you want to ride your hunters like that?"...I laughed.

I showed them both Crowne Point, and they both agreed that horse was not a daisy cutter at the trot because he had too much suspension. They said a true daisy cutter is very long and low to the ground. The term daisy cutter arose because, well, as it implies, the horse is supposed to be cutting the daisies. They said an ideal hunter is supposed to be long and low with forward impulsion, but minimal suspension. (i. e. see the famous WB/TB cross "THE WIZARD").

I also showed her some more videos of the more dressagy hunters (not EQ horses) at the canter, and both said they looked more like show jumpers instead of hunters.

After showing them a few videos, they both concluded that some people were trying to turn the hunter ring into a secondary dressage ring.

They both said that the chestnut QH green working hunter O/F world champion was a nice example of a hunter. They said he had an adequate length of stride, a pretty jump, and was very consistent. They said he wasn't wow, but he was nice enough.

And they really liked GI Jazz, but the record of GI Jazz speaks for itself.

I won't really talk about my horse now because if you couldn't tell that he wasn't forward in any part of that video...well, there is just no need to defend him. Everyone who has ever seen the big fellow in real life knows what he is...

I think those who choose to be breed snobs are going to miss out on some good horses. My horse is a QH who was strictly a rated and local hunter show hunter. He never did AQHA shows. My friend's show jumper who can jump the moon is an Appendix. Another girl at my barn who has a Quarter Pony won almost everything she went into at rated and local hunter shows.

Oh yes, and people have to ride their big movers forward to get the horse to really stretch out. When you're on a powerful, forward going horse with a lot of stride, it is easier as a rider to get more into a two-point position. Otherwise, your back will be mighty sore. The really good ones aren't jerky, but they are very powerful and push you forward.

I'm done with this thread because I have said all that I know to say and talked to the people I needed to talk to. So, no matter what anyone says, I now know what is right.

[bascher]

Unfortunately, I do not think that there are any right answers. Each judge has an opinion, so what one judge may think is right might not be what another judge thinks is right. I truly don't think that there's a right answer, and I'm sure that some of the best judges in the business probably disagree with one another over certain things, but that does not make either of their opinions wrong.

[Horsegal984]

So, no matter what anyone says, I now know what is right.

And THAT folks, is exactly why I won't agree to show hunters until I know who the judge is. I'm not going to waste my money or my horse to get belittled by closed minded snobs like this. :(

OH, and coming from the veterinary field, stay out of it. People who are still in college and decide they already know it all and are always right have no buisness in medicine, where you can very literally kill with a simple mistake. Or at least if you do stay in medicine I hope you have one heck of a malpractice lawyer!!!! :eek:

[bascher]

And THAT folks, is exactly why I won't agree to show hunters until I know who the judge is. I'm not going to waste my money or my horse to get belittled by closed minded snobs like this. :(

OH, and coming from the veterinary field, stay out of it. People who are still in college and decide they already know it all and are always right have no buisness in medicine, where you can very literally kill with a simple mistake. Or at least if you do stay in medicine I hope you have one heck of a malpractice lawyer!!!! :eek:

Not all of us who are in college think that way...in fact more often than not I find that I know LESS than I originally thought haha.

[Dinah-do]

Talked to 2 dressage judges and now know what is right? Lord help us all - the dressage world is arguing up a storm among themselves and are going to venture into hunters? Hunters are subjective. Judging changes a lot every decade or so and is usually a bit different form east coast to west coast. IMO, if someone wants to see a nice mover go to a few big shows and figure it out for yourself. Thank heavens for the Int. Hunter Derby - the horses trot for soundness and that's it.

[enjoytheride]

Except she didn't ask them if crownpoint would pin despite not being a daisy cutter. Crownpoint is what pins, daisy cutter or not.

[Trixie]

I'm done with this thread because I have said all that I know to say and talked to the people I needed to talk to. So, no matter what anyone says, I now know what is right.

So, you're a learner judge who... refuses to listen and learn?

I'm so glad to hear that you were listening to judges that feel that hunters are political. Yeesh. If that were the case, why would most of us even bother going?

[Dinah-do]

Guess what - you know diddly.

[coriander]

Should the learner judge get an actual USEF card, she is unlikely to get too many jobs judging. Word will get around, as it does, when horses with "too much suspension that use too much knee" like Scott's Pregreen horse don't pin in the hack. ;)

[shawneeAcres]

I read about half of this and looked at some videos that were posted. In my opinion a GOOD MOVER must have suspension. I have seen the type that LITERALLY had no suspension, yes the knees were "flat" and the horse moved with no swing at all to the back or stride, very much like a western pleasure horse. This is NOT ideal in a TRUE hunter that will be jumping fences. Usually a flat kneed mover with little to no suspension jumps VERY flat. They tend to lift their knee and jump with a hollow/flat back. The good mover WITH suspension utilizes their hocks and joints on the hind leg more effectively and produces a hrose that has the thrust to jump and round over the fences which is the ideal way a hunter should jump. Freedom in the shoulders allows the front legs to effectively get up and gives that "knees to the eyeballs" look that is desired. I ahve never seen the Crown Pointe horse until today and that horse is an exceptional mover and most likely quite a good jumper.

[lauriep]

But she is right, coriander. Scott's horse is NOT a traditional hunter mover. A poster a few posts up said it correctly. Forward impulsion but little or no suspension(airtime). A long, low stride, swinging from the shoulder, pointed toe and no knee elevation, with good drive from behind. But NOT suspension. Scott's horse lacked freedom from the shoulder, IMO.

In today's hunter ring, we only have WBs to choose from (for the most part). But the judge should still try to choose the most correct hunter movement from what is in the ring. Economy of motion to conserve energy is why this way of moving was sought after in field hunters, and this is one trait that can still exist in today's show hunters.

[GettingBack]

I should add that the drive from behind should drive the horse forward, not up. At least, that's the way it was always explained to me (and appears in the classics that I've read) - propelling "up" (huge suspension) is very wasteful, as the energy goes into nothing but "bouncing" for lack of a better term.

[WorthTheWait95]

I read about half of this and looked at some videos that were posted. In my opinion a GOOD MOVER must have suspension. I have seen the type that LITERALLY had no suspension, yes the knees were "flat" and the horse moved with no swing at all to the back or stride, very much like a western pleasure horse. This is NOT ideal in a TRUE hunter that will be jumping fences. Usually a flat kneed mover with little to no suspension jumps VERY flat. They tend to lift their knee and jump with a hollow/flat back. The good mover WITH suspension utilizes their hocks and joints on the hind leg more effectively and produces a hrose that has the thrust to jump and round over the fences which is the ideal way a hunter should jump. Freedom in the shoulders allows the front legs to effectively get up and gives that "knees to the eyeballs" look that is desired. I ahve never seen the Crown Pointe horse until today and that horse is an exceptional mover and most likely quite a good jumper.


I too have only read about half of this but I agree with the above 100%. I've owned my share of 8+ movers. All of them had a shot at a nice ribbon against top competitors. I now own a young paint horse who I love to death but he is THE definition of Filly85's idea of an ideal hunter mover. Zero suspension but flat as can be. IMO he is a decent mover since he travels straight with a good length of stride but he is in no way fancy or eyecatching on the flat despite his 'daisy cutting'. He jumps with high, square knees but lacks that 'pop' that the horses with tons of suspension/scope have and is not a knees to eyeball jumper.

[BREEDINGMANIAC]

IMO a good hunter mover should not have a lot of suspension-that is seen more in the dressage arena. I want to see a horse move from the shoulders, with a flat knee, covering a lot of ground. I have seen Scott's horses show in Florida, and they are really good movers. I also fell in love with the young 2 year old that won the IHF under saddle at Warrenton in 2007. Now that horse took my breath away. I believe Junior Johnson was the trainer-big fancy bay that covered the ground effortlessly-I think his name was Sox on the Beach.

[petuniapony]

Anyone know the history or name of Scott's horse? Any show record? That trot is just deluxe, divine, spectacular and every other superlative in the book.

[3Dogs]

According to the USEF, by doing a horse search under the name Crown Point, no results appear.

And I suggest all go look at rounds from, say, second year greens and up classes, and then decide what a hunter should move like. I think you will see "suspension" quite key - I concede not in the same animated way of a top dressage horse, but these atheletes carry themselves, and that requires suspension.

Here is Aragon - third in the Hunter Derby just a few weeks ago at Thermal. Only video I could find. Take a look at the movement - and jump!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc8CdEUUyzc&feature=related

[BREEDINGMANIAC]

3dogs-IMO that horse has a good jump-but does not move well at the canter- too much knee action. Never saw him trot-but based on his canter does not move well at all.

[enjoytheride]

I believe crownpoint had some issues with his attitude over fences and he has not been seen in awhile which is a shame since he is such a nice mover.

[LetsChat]

Like anything in life, it's a balance. Yes, the flatter the mover the flatter the jump, if they don't have freedom of the shoulder how are they going to snap those knees to the eyeballs? Still a horse with dressage suspension is NOT ideal either. I don't think the Thermal horse posted was a particularly good hunter movers but jumps nice, then you may see, and I have, a horse that moves like a true daisy cutter but only gets the knees to about the horizontal, not hanging but definitely NOT what you would think of when you imagine Rox Dene jumping. It has to be both, enough suspension that they can rock back and lift up that front end in spectacular form but not sooo much that you lose the flowing stride. And the most important is it is subjective. So you may find a judge like the learner judge who is posting she knows it all and choose, after seeing how she pins, to NOT show under her. Or you may find a judge who just LOVES your horse and choose to show under them. Scott is known for having the hack winners, Winter Castle is a beautiful mover as is Grey Slipper (unfortunately I have competed against both), those horses have enough suspension to warrant a very nice jump but still flow with a flat knee. I think the only way to truely learn is go out to some big shows and watch what's winning. I love to just sit at say Capital Challenge, where the jumping rounds are scored, and pretend judge. See where I come in vs. the judges, that helps. Plus as it also has been noted, you are picking the best of the class so what wins today in X company may get 9th tomorrow in Y company - it's a subjective sport.

[LetsChat]

I believe crownpoint had some issues with his attitude over fences and he has not been seen in awhile which is a shame since he is such a nice mover.

Maybe because he is only 3. Hopefully he will be back to the hunter ring, otherwise seeing as he has been blessed with suspension - a dressage career possibly :lol::lol::lol:

[neutral milk hotel]

Comparing the movement of ponies is quite different, but regardless, Sparkle Plenty is a great mover. You can see it trot at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61HNxevUQPU

[Jest]

I agree, Sparkle Plenty is a lovely mover. Jerry Lee, Peter Pletchers' pony is also a very flamboyant mover. Monroe, another small is a fabulous mover. She beat the horses at CC this year in the Junior World Hunter under saddle class.

Scott's horse is a gorgeous mover. I think flat-kneed, a free shoulder, suspension, and drive from behind are all keys to great movement. I always watch the shoulder. Good movement and jumping comes from a great shoulder.

[jeansonline]

I'm a photographer and I will never again judge a horses true movement by photos. I've seen some of the ugliest movers on earth made to look good just by timing. Doing the hunter circle at the end especially, as soon as they transition into the trot from the canter. Any horse can be made to look pretty spectacular at the precise moment! However no doubt the two ponies posted are indeed lovely movers.

[ToTheNines]

My two bits is that it depends on to what extent the "suspension" is forward versus up. I have seen very flat movers that have that extra float forward, and it is a thing of beauty. Toes point forward and the whole horse floats level forward.

Also, my second two bits is Be Glad the Hunter Judging is Subjective! I tried taking my nice-moving App to breed shows, and he would hardly pin. And I am not just talking about the slow thing -- they all go the same, same pace, same head, same neck, according to some unstated standard that the judges seem to agree on. A ccokie cutter class and no fun at all.

I love it that the hunter/jumper show judges are allowed to pin what they like.

[Mr. Jig]

My two bits is that it depends on to what extent the "suspension" is forward versus up. I have seen very flat movers that have that extra float forward, and it is a thing of beauty. Toes point forward and the whole horse floats level forward.

Also, my second two bits is Be Glad the Hunter Judging is Subjective! I tried taking my nice-moving App to breed shows, and he would hardly pin. And I am not just talking about the slow thing -- they all go the same, same pace, same head, same neck, according to some unstated standard that the judges seem to agree on. A ccokie cutter class and no fun at all.

I love it that the hunter/jumper show judges are allowed to pin what they like.

So you are saying that you find the h/j are more accepting of the App. That is good to hear seeing as I just got a young one last year and hope to eventually show him in the hunters. I have an older pinto so I am no stranger to being unconventional, just curious what kind of a response you got.

http://family.webshots.com/photo/2143596460103626323VqodXD

And my solid 1/2 App

http://family.webshots.com/photo/2414224420103626323JPRbOy

[DMK]

I'm a photographer and I will never again judge a horses true movement by photos. I've seen some of the ugliest movers on earth made to look good just by timing. Doing the hunter circle at the end especially, as soon as they transition into the trot from the canter. Any horse can be made to look pretty spectacular at the precise moment! However no doubt the two ponies posted are indeed lovely movers.

You got that right! I have a certified Daisy Stomper, but I have a picture that lies! :lol:

[dropitlikeitshot]

You got that right! I have a certified Daisy Stomper, but I have a picture that lies! :lol:

He may be a Stomper, but his jump is a 10! :yes: :D

I did enjoy people nit-picking on Crown Point, the 3 year old, being inconsistent and not stretching out at the canter :rolleyes: If you takea look at the second link that was posted, this one here:
http://www.showhunterclinic.com/playvideo.php?sample=319&ext=wmv

You can see and hear more and hear what Scott was focusing on- namely having the horse lift and move out.

[Equino]

Crown Point was only 3 yrs old in that video. I'd love to see how he is as a 4 yr old, 5 yr old, but I believe he's still a lot better than most of the examples show in this thread (*ponies exempted!).

I'm a big fan of QHs, grew up in that world and have so many wonderful memories riding QHs. I do believe you will find a lot of QHs that are potential daisy cutters, especially those with TB influence, but that doesn't mean they can compete with the WBs who are winning U/S. I guess since this thread is "daisy cutter" and not winning movers, maybe it is open to interpretation. But I do believe the QHs in the videos on here would not beat Crown Point, even if they have less knee or whatever.

As I said earlier-I had an appendix who was truly a daisy cutter, so flat kneed, big sweeping trot, super consistent flat canter, stuck his nose out and never moved, ears always pointing forward-painted a pretty picture. He won a lot in the u/s at the "C" shows in the Adults and he earned a few points in the AQHA Youth u/s. He was sort of the middle ground between the two worlds, never "loped" but would rock back and canter slowly on a super loose rein, although his head never did get below the withers, and I think his consistency and pleasant expression held him good stead. But he would've never held his own at the "A" shows or the bigger QH shows.

My whole point is-I would take a Crown Point over just about any fancy QH mover, and I am NOT anti-QH!

[enjoytheride]

Maybe because he is only 3. Hopefully he will be back to the hunter ring, otherwise seeing as he has been blessed with suspension - a dressage career possibly :lol::lol::lol:

Crownpoint is actually 6 so I'm not sure where he's been, I hope he comes back so we can see how he does over fences.

[CBoylen]

Anyone know the history or name of Scott's horse? Any show record? That trot is just deluxe, divine, spectacular and every other superlative in the book.
He showed in the three and four year olds in 2007 and the pregreen at the beginning of 2008, but I don't think he's done anything since last winter, at least that I've seen.
He's six now. He has a good jump, but as I said before when I saw him show he was not mature yet, still behaving very green.

3Dogs, it's Crownpoint, one word, and then the results come up.

[RedMare01]

Oh yes, and people have to ride their big movers forward to get the horse to really stretch out. When you're on a powerful, forward going horse with a lot of stride, it is easier as a rider to get more into a two-point position. Otherwise, your back will be mighty sore. The really good ones aren't jerky, but they are very powerful and push you forward.
.

You know what this is called?

Suspension.

Caitlin

[DreamBigEq37]

Interesting thread.

I read the title and immediately went to hunt down this video: http://www.oldeoaksfarm.com/actualvideo.html

Enjoy!

[RockinHorse]

Just for credibility purposes, I've been a learner judge for the past eight years under three different horse show judges.

Well, I'm jealous that you actually have a farm in this lovely area! I just go to college here, and if I could afford a farm in the surrounding area, I sure would. Chapel Hill is wonderful.

I for one am impressed that a college student has been a learner judge for 8 years :winkgrin:

[RockinHorse]

But she is right, coriander. Scott's horse is NOT a traditional hunter mover. A poster a few posts up said it correctly. Forward impulsion but little or no suspension(airtime). A long, low stride, swinging from the shoulder, pointed toe and no knee elevation, with good drive from behind. But NOT suspension. Scott's horse lacked freedom from the shoulder, IMO.

In today's hunter ring, we only have WBs to choose from (for the most part). But the judge should still try to choose the most correct hunter movement from what is in the ring. Economy of motion to conserve energy is why this way of moving was sought after in field hunters, and this is one trait that can still exist in today's show hunters.

While I agree that economy of motion is desirable in the hunt field, show hunters have moved far from those roots. After all, when I have fox hunted I have ridden horses that are very good jumpers but my preference out in the hunt field is a horse with a flatter jumping style that gallops one. The knees to eyeballs and huge bascule out of a slow canter would not be fun for a couple of hours in trappy terrain :eek:

[3Dogs]

thanks Chanda:

so here are the results on Crownpoint:

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseResultsReport.aspx

From my reading, there are judges who thought he moves great and those who were not so impressed ;) The O/F results are not impressive - however, I am not one to judge scope of horse based on jumping 3 feet, so I will give him a pass on that :)

[DMK]

He may be a Stomper, but his jump is a 10! :yes: :D



The running joke is he likes to admire his knees, he thinks they are very pretty... so he lifts them waaaaay high when he's jumping (eyeball level for a close up), and when he trots and most especially when he canters he likes to check and see if they are still as pretty as he thinks they are. :D

Sometimes when I am in a hack (uh, because there are only 6 or less in it) I like to sing "pretty pretty knees we have such pretty pretty knees" under my breath (barely) when I hack around. Then I try to imagine what it would be like if we got called for a primary color and would my points count if I dramatacally fell off, grasped my chest and said "Elizabeth! I'm coming!" :D

[Dirty Little Secret]

this thread is exhausting to read and sounds more and more like a resume for filly'85. Guessing that 85 is her birth year which makes her fairly young and inexperienced.
I'd feel pretty safe saying that CBoylen has a pretty good take on what a great mover looks like (and she always says it with tact).

I side with whatever she says!

And I'm floored by Crown Pointe's movement- lovely potential and I have a suspicion that Scott knows what he's got. Definitely one to watch.

[lauriep]

While I agree that economy of motion is desirable in the hunt field, show hunters have moved far from those roots. After all, when I have fox hunted I have ridden horses that are very good jumpers but my preference out in the hunt field is a horse with a flatter jumping style that gallops one. The knees to eyeballs and huge bascule out of a slow canter would not be fun for a couple of hours in trappy terrain :eek:

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't think that an older style daisy cutter is mutually exclusive from a great jumper. I don't dislike the way the WB tends to move, I just prefer the look of the less-airtime mover. Personal preference.

And just because they have moved far from the roots of field hunters, I don't necessarily think that is always a good thing...

[RockinHorse]

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't think that an older style daisy cutter is mutually exclusive from a great jumper. I don't dislike the way the WB tends to move, I just prefer the look of the less-airtime mover. Personal preference.

I'm not saying that a daisy cutter is mutually exclusive from a great jumper. I am saying that I don't think that the argument that the WB way of going with more suspension is not as desirable in the hunt field therefore, it should be less desirable in the show ring since the hunt field is where hunters roots come from necessarily holds water anymore since show hunters have already moved far from thier roots.



And just because they have moved far from the roots of field hunters, I don't necessarily think that is always a good thing...


I will agree with you here because I never said it was a good thing either - after all I am still a die hard TB fan who grew up showing in the days of no horse classes under 3'6" ;)

[twobays]

I for one am impressed that a college student has been a learner judge for 8 years :winkgrin:

Particularly if she was born in '85...Usually they don't have 15 year olds as learner judges...

[scpezold]

I agree that I am totally confused now, but I am glad this all seems to be ending on a good note!!! :D

You spoke to soon or is that sarcasm I am reading :lol:

[Portia]

You know what this is called?

Suspension.

Caitlin

:D :yes:

[Fancy That]

Comparing the movement of ponies is quite different, but regardless, Sparkle Plenty is a great mover. You can see it trot at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61HNxevUQPU

Love that pony! That is definitely a daisy cutter. Look at how the legs SWEEP forward, cover alot of ground and not much (if any) round/upward motion at all!!!

At both canter and trot.

This pony's canter is the opposite of Aragon's......

I don't think that a winner has to be a daisy cutter. But to the OP's question....Sparkle Plenty is a great example of daisy cutting!

[CBoylen]

thanks Chanda:
From my reading, there are judges who thought he moves great and those who were not so impressed ;) The O/F results are not impressive - however, I am not one to judge scope of horse based on jumping 3 feet, so I will give him a pass on that :)
If I remember correctly the occasions where he did not place as well in the hack were times where he just didn't hack well, not really reflective of his movement. As I said, he was very immature in the ring, as you can see as well in the o/f results. The horse has a perfectly decent jump and a cute look, just wasn't putting it all together at the time.

[3Dogs]

wasn't there, haven't seen him other than that tape, really, can't comment other than looking at results and a video. But, pour moi, a young horse that isn't a metronome at a young age is a GOOD thing :D, not a bad thing! That judges don't agree when they are in the 2'6" or even 3" divisions, well pshaw - let's see them in the First Years (or ammie owners) , that's when my judging begins :lol:

But really, when I watch the 3 foot horses, there are those I love who do NOT win at that height. Then there are those I love as 3 foot horses.

Still :lol::lol::lol:don't love his movement based on that video (oh do let's keep this debate going:winkgrin:). Would like to own that pony though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Instant Karma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12

Now THAT's what I'm talkin about!!

[Fancy That]

I'm a photographer and I will never again judge a horses true movement by photos. I've seen some of the ugliest movers on earth made to look good just by timing. <SNIP>Any horse can be made to look pretty spectacular at the precise moment!
=================================

Couldn't agree more! Taken at the precise moment, even the poorest of movers can look okay!

Case in point! See my Morgan mare:

Hunter-looking trot:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/IMG_5813.jpg


and now compare that to

Morgan-looking trot:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/F_cute_trot.jpg


Totally opposite looking movement! :)

[RugBug]

Let's all pray we don't met Filly'85 in the ring someday. I think we'll all be sorely disappointed that the 10 mover we've hunted for for years gets ignored. although, maybe by then she'll have grown up and realized that at 23-24, she really knew very little. Old school? I almost choked. You can't be old school when you were born in 1985.

My submission for a more TB type hunter mover is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=937UFTmx_UM&feature=channel_page

Interestingly, he looks short strided and like he'd have to gallop to get down today's lines. But then again, back in the old days (:winkgrin:) you were allowed to hand gallop your courses.

Personally, I'm a fan of the west coast Sin City. Sadly, the video of him that is now up (he's for sale...but I have no association) just isn't as good as the first set of video (dags...what's up with that? ;)). I understand why they would put the 3'6" video up, but the 4' stuff was leaps and bounds above. Made me drool...and still does months after seeing it. The horse has a really nice rhythmical trot that just sweeps along. Canter is long, slow and gorgeous. I wish I had the money to even make the 'serious inquiry' required for him.

[Foxdale Farm]

First, let me say that reading through everyone's responses and watching the video clips has been REALLY interesting and fun, albeit still somewhat confusing. I am amazed that my question has sparked such an involved debate, but I love it! I am still way too ignorant when it comes to the Hunter discipline, but I am being progressively enlightened. Thanks to everyone! Now I need to go and evaluate my young horses' movement to see where we're at! I would imagine that the Hunter market also demands good form over fences, quiet dispositions, etc., in addition to that seemingly elusive daisy cutter (correction from my original question in which I wrongly used the term "daisy clipper") movement.

In any event, this is fun!

www.foxdalefarm.us

[twobays]

My submission for a more TB type hunter mover is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=937UFTmx_UM&feature=channel_page

Interestingly, he looks short strided and like he'd have to gallop to get down today's lines. But then again, back in the old days (:winkgrin:) you were allowed to hand gallop your courses.




I thought that at first too, but I think the video is a little warped or something...it looks a little stretched out vertically, which may be making everything look a little squashed left-to-right.

[chawley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA&feature=PlayList&p=2810C3BC8D8B1C6E&playnext=1&index=12


Sigh....I want him. What an incredible mover and such a cute horse.

[Foxdale Farm]

What's fascinating to me is that I know a LOT of dressage enthusiasts who would also love this chestnut gelding for his movement. While his knee action may not be incredibly animated, he still has plenty of power and push through the hind end, he is balanced, rhythmic, and cadenced, and it looks like his work ethic is pretty stable. To me, it seems that the major difference would be in the way he would be ridden and trained over time. Most AA dressage riders are not necessarily searching for the most animated mover, but something that is trainable and mentally stable with very nice movement and a horse that has enough talent to take them up through 2nd or 3rd level. Once you move beyond that point, you're looking more for talent to collect than a huge, "exotic" trot (as I once heard an experienced breeder describe that big, high knee action type of trot that most people can't ride and that can sometimes - I repeat SOMETIMES prove to be a hindrance to collected work).

I would love a comment or two on this yearling's style of movement. I don't own her, but she is by my stallion, Gatsby. To me, she is a beautiful mover, and it seems like she could go in any direction. She was bred specifically for eventing, but I am struggling to assess whether she has that elusive quality you guys are talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbFc5_1xyBQ.

www.foxdalefarm.us

[dags]

Personally, I'm a fan of the west coast Sin City. Sadly, the video of him that is now up (he's for sale...but I have no association) just isn't as good as the first set of video (dags...what's up with that? ;)). I understand why they would put the 3'6" video up, but the 4' stuff was leaps and bounds above. Made me drool...and still does months after seeing it. The horse has a really nice rhythmical trot that just sweeps along. Canter is long, slow and gorgeous. I wish I had the money to even make the 'serious inquiry' required for him.

Good grief, can't believe Vegas never came to mind in this discussion! :headdesk: I don't think we had a 4' video of him, we had the junior hunters at Thermal last year and then picked up a video of him packing to blues in the Childrens, to show versatility of course :) Both are up there- I rarely pull a video, just add to them. He's a phenomonal hacker with a gorgeous canter. Very flat-kneed and sweepy, like gliding on air. I think I'm okay if I just post a link to his video . . . I will soon find out . . .

http://www.exchangehj.com/listings/horses/sinCity_files/sinCity_hi.wmv

[Filly85']

Let's all pray we don't met Filly'85 in the ring someday. I think we'll all be sorely disappointed that the 10 mover we've hunted for for years gets ignored. although, maybe by then she'll have grown up and realized that at 23-24, she really knew very little. Old school? I almost choked. You can't be old school when you were born in 1985.

My submission for a more TB type hunter mover is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=937UFTmx_UM&feature=channel_page

Interestingly, he looks short strided and like he'd have to gallop to get down today's lines. But then again, back in the old days (:winkgrin:) you were allowed to hand gallop your courses.

Personally, I'm a fan of the west coast Sin City. Sadly, the video of him that is now up (he's for sale...but I have no association) just isn't as good as the first set of video (dags...what's up with that? ;)). I understand why they would put the 3'6" video up, but the 4' stuff was leaps and bounds above. Made me drool...and still does months after seeing it. The horse has a really nice rhythmical trot that just sweeps along. Canter is long, slow and gorgeous. I wish I had the money to even make the 'serious inquiry' required for him.

That was unnecessary. Oh, so I guess the chestnut WB that I posted doesn't move well. Well, I think you can be old school if you were taught that way. And we have a fantastic low moving long-strided grey 17 hand junior 3'6" TB at our barn. And most of the hunters at our barn have gone cross country jumping except for the new group that just came in.

I think my grey is a nice mover. In fact, that's why my mom bought him and paid a nice chunk of change for him as a yealing. My grey has a heck of a lot bigger stride than the horse that you posted.

If you want to see great hunter movement, buy Rodney Jenkin's Selecting Hunters and Jumpers. There are some great horses in there, and the video was made sometime during the 1990s. It is worth the money, and you will learn a few things. I know that I did.

[dags]

If you want to see great hunter movement, buy Rodney Jenkin's Selecting Hunters and Jumpers. There are some great horses in there, and the video was made sometime during the 1990s. It is worth the money, and you will learn a few things. I know that I did.

Why? This board is free, has access to all kinds of media to show good hunter movement, and is full of people qualified and happy to share their knowledge. You might actually learn a few things, if you so choose- but you have made it abundantly clear that you do not.

[gypsymare]

Good grief, can't believe Vegas never came to mind in this discussion! :headdesk: I don't think we had a 4' video of him, we had the junior hunters at Thermal last year and then picked up a video of him packing to blues in the Childrens, to show versatility of course :) Both are up there- I rarely pull a video, just add to them. He's a phenomonal hacker with a gorgeous canter. Very flat-kneed and sweepy, like gliding on air. I think I'm okay if I just post a link to his video . . . I will soon find out . . .

http://www.exchangehj.com/listings/horses/sinCity_files/sinCity_hi.wmv

That canter is PERFECT. Now THAT is a hunter. Clean, distinctive and yes SUSPENSION without knee action. Those moments of air time mean the difference between a cadenced effortless looking trip and a horse that has to rush down the line to make the stride. Balanced and round.. not the flattened out look of the AQHA hunter. AWESOME jump.

The trot is lovely. I'd like to see a bit more rotation before the landing to get a clearer heel first landing, but that could be anything from new shoes, strange footing, etc.

Basically no horse is perfect but this is as close as I've seen here so far!

[pines4equines]

On page 4 of this thread, Six Pound Farm posted this horse. http://sixpoundfarm.com/shortrot.mpg
I happen to like this horse.

I'm a fan of the older TB daisy cutter. To me, and I know it's the style these days, the WB seems a bit more lumbering.

When I used to groom in the late 70s, I saw Twentieth Century Limited on the flat and I wish we could show a video of him. He was the quintessential daisy cutter no ifs, ands or buts.

[RugBug]

Good grief, can't believe Vegas never came to mind in this discussion! :headdesk: I don't think we had a 4' video of him, we had the junior hunters at Thermal last year and then picked up a video of him packing to blues in the Childrens, to show versatility of course :) Both are up there- I rarely pull a video, just add to them. He's a phenomonal hacker with a gorgeous canter. Very flat-kneed and sweepy, like gliding on air. I think I'm okay if I just post a link to his video . . . I will soon find out . . .

http://www.exchangehj.com/listings/horses/sinCity_files/sinCity_hi.wmv

:yes: That's the video I was talking about. Drool.Drool.Drool. I just made the assumption that it was 4' because the other looked so small in comparison...and I couldn't imagined buying such a nice horse for 3'. :winkgrin: The video used to be on youtube as well, but now there's just the Children's round (I guess) at Thermal. The last time I was at the exchange, I couldn't find the 3'6" rounds so I assumed they were off...glad to hear they're not. I'll go dream some more. :D

Filly'85: I'd love to watch the Rodney Jenkins video, but I'm not going to pay $300 for a VHS...which is the lowest price I've seen for it lately. However, since I have a pretty firm grasp of what makes a good moving horse (I am still learning how to pick a phenomenal canter from a good canter), I think I'll be okay. Personally, I think I'm farther along than you in the whole game, anyway. In the very least, I have a good idea of what I know and what I don't know, how that knowledge fits into the grand scheme of things and I feel no need to list exagerrated credentials trying to get people to believe me.

Oh, and to be honest, I didn't watch to much of the chestnut...He didn't strike me as 'Wow' from what I'd watched. And I'd already seen the okay but not great moving grey (moves a lot like my horse...local winner but won't win at rated and might not even pin depending on the company), the chestnut QH that travelled crooked, so I have a pretty good idea of what you think is great movement.

BTW, while I think Crown Point is a wonderful mover, he's not my style. He's a little exaggerated for my taste. I'd take Gray Slipper any day, though. Watching that horse hack is like watching a dream slide by.

[JenEM]

What's fascinating to me is that I know a LOT of dressage enthusiasts who would also love this chestnut gelding for his movement. While his knee action may not be incredibly animated, he still has plenty of power and push through the hind end, he is balanced, rhythmic, and cadenced, and it looks like his work ethic is pretty stable.


Knee and hock action aside, I think to have a good mover in any discipline, you need a horse who's moving correctly off its hind end, with a balanced, rhythmic, cadenced stride. The hunter vs. dressage difference comes in how it uses that stride; I'm no dressage expert, but I think they want a little more action up and through, while the hunters want sweeping and ground-covering.

I think the filly you posted a link of is a cute mover, and one I'd say moves more like a hunter than a dressage horse.

[Filly85']

Why? This board is free, has access to all kinds of media to show good hunter movement, and is full of people qualified and happy to share their knowledge. You might actually learn a few things, if you so choose- but you have made it abundantly clear that you do not.

1) I don't think anyone on this board has an overall better or equal knowledge of horses than Rodney Jenkins. No offense to anyone on here, but that is most likely the case. If anyone knows more than him, please let me know and I will take back that statement. This was not meant in a snarky way at all. I was being sincere.

2) There has not been a horse (ponies excluded) that has been posted on here anywhere close to his ideal mover on that video. I can't find a horse anywhere close to that one.

3) The information in that video is fantastic, such as conformation examples and conformation faults. It outlines the definition of knee action. It shows young horses as they develop over a series of years from a yearling to a two year old to a three year old. It shows blemishes and unsoundesses such as bows and curbs. It is just an all around great video, and it never hurts to learn from a 'great' horseman.

It is just a really neat video. I choose to learn from great horsemen that I know in real life about movement and conformation. Also, if I have a question about something, I won't hesitate to ask, and have asked many questions on this board. I feel that a lot of people on here are very knowledgeable, even if they have different opinions or styles than me. I am actually very open minded with most things, and stir the pot at times to get a good debate going. I am a UNC-CH biology major...open minded has to be my middle name or I'll fail, which is not going to happen.

However, when it comes to conformation and movement, I feel like I get more from real life experience than I do from this board. It is just my learning preference on that topic, and the horseman that I know are proven champions on rated show circuits. I like to go out there and see what wins in the show ring while actually being there in reality. Videos don't always tell the whole story. You don't get the same feel in a video that you do in real life.

[Filly85']

What's fascinating to me is that I know a LOT of dressage enthusiasts who would also love this chestnut gelding for his movement. While his knee action may not be incredibly animated, he still has plenty of power and push through the hind end, he is balanced, rhythmic, and cadenced, and it looks like his work ethic is pretty stable. To me, it seems that the major difference would be in the way he would be ridden and trained over time. Most AA dressage riders are not necessarily searching for the most animated mover, but something that is trainable and mentally stable with very nice movement and a horse that has enough talent to take them up through 2nd or 3rd level. Once you move beyond that point, you're looking more for talent to collect than a huge, "exotic" trot (as I once heard an experienced breeder describe that big, high knee action type of trot that most people can't ride and that can sometimes - I repeat SOMETIMES prove to be a hindrance to collected work).

I would love a comment or two on this yearling's style of movement. I don't own her, but she is by my stallion, Gatsby. To me, she is a beautiful mover, and it seems like she could go in any direction. She was bred specifically for eventing, but I am struggling to assess whether she has that elusive quality you guys are talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbFc5_1xyBQ.

www.foxdalefarm.us

I think Jen said it very well. I also think that this is a very cute moving little filly. Personally I think this filly could do either at this point. Good luck with her!

[carrie_girl]

I have learned a lot from reading this thread. For one thing, I think I would have a pretty good shot at being the hack winner on my 2nd level dressage horse! He is an Appenix and usually gets at least a 7 for his gaits, but does not move like the warmblood dressage horses we compete against. I wish I had a video, but he moves very much like that Sin City horse someone posted, especially at the trot. He is quite happy to trot along on the buckle or at any contact I might choose, and had the most rhythmic canter I have ever ridden. But alas, he just doesn't have the jump....

[Filly85']

:yes: That's the video I was talking about. Drool.Drool.Drool. I just made the assumption that it was 4' because the other looked so small in comparison...and I couldn't imagined buying such a nice horse for 3'. :winkgrin: The video used to be on youtube as well, but now there's just the Children's round (I guess) at Thermal. The last time I was at the exchange, I couldn't find the 3'6" rounds so I assumed they were off...glad to hear they're not. I'll go dream some more. :D

Filly'85: I'd love to watch the Rodney Jenkins video, but I'm not going to pay $300 for a VHS...which is the lowest price I've seen for it lately. However, since I have a pretty firm grasp of what makes a good moving horse (I am still learning how to pick a phenomenal canter from a good canter), I think I'll be okay. Personally, I think I'm farther along than you in the whole game, anyway. In the very least, I have a good idea of what I know and what I don't know, how that knowledge fits into the grand scheme of things and I feel no need to list exagerrated credentials trying to get people to believe me.

Oh, and to be honest, I didn't watch to much of the chestnut...He didn't strike me as 'Wow' from what I'd watched. And I'd already seen the okay but not great moving grey (moves a lot like my horse...local winner but won't win at rated and might not even pin depending on the company), the chestnut QH that travelled crooked, so I have a pretty good idea of what you think is great movement.

BTW, while I think Crown Point is a wonderful mover, he's not my style. He's a little exaggerated for my taste. I'd take Gray Slipper any day, though. Watching that horse hack is like watching a dream slide by.

Well, I guess you showed me:lol:

The grey would have only won at the locals I suppose in the hack if he wouldn't have won at the rated shows in it:lol: Perhaps the competition isn't all that. I think very few horses are actual 10 movers. That is specified for an elite group. My horse does not have a 10 trot by my standards.

If that grey TB was your horse, I can assure you that the old grey of mine moves nothing like that TB. If that is not your horse, and even though I have not seen your horse, it is unlikely that your horse canters like my old horse.

You may know more than me, but you may not. I don't know. That's a snarky contest that won't get anywhere on a board. If you believe you know more than me, go ahead and think so. It won't bother me any. You must be fairly young to be starting this immature argument.

Crownpoint is exagerrated, but he is starting to grow on me:lol:

Also, the QH horse was the closest thing I could find to what I like at the time. I didn't mean she was literally a 10 because she is not. However, if one could look past the crooked canter which is easily fixed, one could see that the horse is a nice moving horse.

If that chestnut WB wasn't a 'wow', I'd like to come to your area. Not only was that horse a beautiful mover, but he jumped out of his skin!

[Trixie]

You may know more than me, but you may not. I don't know. That's a snarky contest that won't get anywhere on a board. If you believe you know more than me, go ahead and think so. It won't bother me any. You must be fairly young to be starting this immature argument.


However, when it comes to conformation and movement, I feel like I get more from real life experience than I do from this board. It is just my learning preference on that topic, and the horseman that I know are proven champions on rated show circuits. I like to go out there and see what wins in the show ring while actually being there in reality. Videos don't always tell the whole story. You don't get the same feel in a video that you do in real life.

Rugbug, while she IS a young woman, is not younger than you. Didn't you say you were done with this thread a few pages back:

I'm done with this thread because I have said all that I know to say and talked to the people I needed to talk to. So, no matter what anyone says, I now know what is right.

You may get more from real life experience, most of us do. However, this is a discussion on an internet BB. Sometimes, it's surprising what you can learn from alternative sources if you keep your eyes open and try to actually keep an open mind.

I think that people are having reactionary attitudes to your spouting off random credentials and rambling about how you're gonna go talk to your rated show judge friends every other time you're trying to make a point. Frankly, it's a bit obnoxious.

[RugBug]

If that chestnut WB wasn't a 'wow', I'd like to come to your area. Not only was that horse a beautiful mover, but he jumped out of his skin!

So I went back and watched the full video on the chestnut horse. Impressions: Could have a nice trot but needs to be ridden looser. There is too much frame and contact going on. Canter is okay but not WOW. Too much action all around. Jump is pretty nice, but horse has a long way to go before it will make a hunter. There's nothing relaxing about watching that horse go. He's a bundle of nerves and energy. Everything is rushed and tense. Go watch Sin City's video again, or for the first time and compare the two. Watching Sin City is like watching a lullaby. He's so relaxed and rhythmical you lose yourself in it.

[sixpoundfarm]

On page 4 of this thread, Six Pound Farm posted this horse. http://sixpoundfarm.com/shortrot.mpg
I happen to like this horse.

I'm a fan of the older TB daisy cutter. To me, and I know it's the style these days, the WB seems a bit more lumbering.



Thanks for commenting on my clip. I was hoping someone would have something to say, good or bad.... for curiosity sake.

FWIW the horse is an Trakehner/TB cross. He usually gets good ribbons in the hack.

[ohsareee]

Must I say, ive read little snippets here and there from this thread, and I am definatly amused. I think we all know no one in the horse world can agree so I dont really understand the point in arguing. No one has the same outlooks or preferances, I would hope that people dealing with this "Horse World" on a regular basis should know that. I have a bay 15h qh. He is a "daisy cutter" He is flat kneed in almost every part of his stride. His stride is 10x bigger than a 16.2h warmblood. He also has a big sweepy flat kneed canter. I dont have any videos of him right now, but I could easily take one this afternoon. He has won every hack hes been in, althought theyve only been some local "A" shows because I hadn't continued showing him before. But, again, ide like to thank you all for the early morning entertainment.

[seeuatx]

I fully admit that my eye tends to gear towards more dressagey type movers, and I am used to seeing horses more "together" (for lack of a better word)... anyhow, this thread has been very educational for me (I just ignore the in-fighting), so thank you for everyone sharing their opinions and videos. I'm trying to test my eye a bit, so what do you think of this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDj1p4nAhU I think he doesn't have quite the "WOW" factor of CrownePoint of Cabardino, but is a nice and appropriate mover, yes?

[2boys]

I am enjoying this thread too (also ignoring p*$$ing contests). :cool: I am having fun watching the videos, and trying to find some of my own.

I fully admit that my eye tends to gear towards more dressagey type movers, and I am used to seeing horses more "together" (for lack of a better word)... anyhow, this thread has been very educational for me (I just ignore the in-fighting), so thank you for everyone sharing their opinions and videos. I'm trying to test my eye a bit, so what do you think of this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDj1p4nAhU I think he doesn't have quite the "WOW" factor of CrownePoint of Cabardino, but is a nice and appropriate mover, yes?

This guy seems like "old school" to me. He seems like that efficient, tb typey kind, right? So maybe the style you like is changing! I also think that he is very, very nice.

[magnolia73]

I love the grey RugBug posted. Sin City- to me- is a bit heavy. I like a lighter look and sometimes the warmbloods can look heavy and almost belabored. That said, it's a bit like choosing the best flavor of Haagen Daz.

Judging is ultimately subjective. There is not really a "standard" in the rules that points to a Sin City vs grey horse. It's preference.

I had an eggbeater growing up. I showed in a class of 6. One horse was my friends totally elegant mover. Imagine my shock when I pinned on top. I was worried. Was my friend's horse lame? No, it was just the announcer read the results backward.

[LetsChat]

I love the grey RugBug posted. Sin City- to me- is a bit heavy. I like a lighter look and sometimes the warmbloods can look heavy and almost belabored. That said, it's a bit like choosing the best flavor of Haagen Daz.

Judging is ultimately subjective. There is not really a "standard" in the rules that points to a Sin City vs grey horse. It's preference.

I had an eggbeater growing up. I showed in a class of 6. One horse was my friends totally elegant mover. Imagine my shock when I pinned on top. I was worried. Was my friend's horse lame? No, it was just the announcer read the results backward.

In this case the results were read backwards but the horse could have picked up the wrong lead, wasn't relaxed at the walk, didn't come back from the canter... I mean there are many reasons why a known good mover could be out of the ribbons, again, it is the class that the judges are judging. Not to say I have never seen a horse that blatently has done something wrong still pin but hey, as we all know it is judge's discretion.

[magnolia73]

LOL, no the results were read backwards. The judge corrected things.

[seeuatx]

I am enjoying this thread too (also ignoring p*$$ing contests). :cool: I am having fun watching the videos, and trying to find some of my own.



This guy seems like "old school" to me. He seems like that efficient, tb typey kind, right? So maybe the style you like is changing! I also think that he is very, very nice.

I think you are right. Now that I have a little more of an idea of what I am looking at, I think I rather like that style. The grey I linked to I just randomly found on Youtube, but I immediately liked him for both his way of going, but also his demeanor. The other thing I am starting to pick out are the horse with the Ba dum, ba dum, ba dum canter rhythm (I don't know how else to describe it... but I like it :yes:) which is something that seems more nature than nurture

[Fancy That]

I think you are right. Now that I have a little more of an idea of what I am looking at, I think I rather like that style. The grey I linked to I just randomly found on Youtube, but I immediately liked him for both his way of going, but also his demeanor. The other thing I am starting to pick out are the horse with the Ba dum, ba dum, ba dum canter rhythm (I don't know how else to describe it... but I like it :yes:) which is something that seems more nature than nurture

I love watching these videos and examples! As a junior rider (and when I showed most in Hunters) it was the early 80's to early 90's! So I'm definitely old school.

Love that grey (Truman at Hampton Classic) Sin City - while amazing, is definitely ridden more bridled up and his face is behind vertical or at vertical, mostly. Maybe it was an eq class, and I didn't notice.

Anyhoo - love the "ba dum, ba dum, ba dum, ba dum" description. Very appropriate. I love when they look real "easy" and "flow"

Fun thread!

[Filly85']

This is kind of off topic, but I have to share this horse. He is not what I would call a great mover, but watch him jump:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPQJHTtPirM&feature=channel

I really like the type Truman is for a hunter.

I also think I was a bit unfair to Crownpoint at first. He is just so different that I may have reacted a little unfairly. If I saw this horse moving in an actual competition with other horses, he may be a 'wow' for me despite the fact that I think he has a little bit more suspension than I like to see.

I was also thrown off a bit by Cabardino. While I still think he is a really nice mover, I thought he was a bit taller than he is. They have some small hunters in Canada...lol. Not that I think he is a bad size either. I actually like horses in that height area probably the most, but I've seen some nice taller horses too.

I'll quit being obnoxious. Although, I don't think I'm the only one in this thread that may need to be open minded and open their eyes if that is the case:lol: That statement may have been a bit unfair, but I know that I make myself an easy target.

[LookinSouth]

Sin City - while amazing, is definitely ridden more bridled up and his face is behind vertical or at vertical, mostly.


I agree. I thought Sin City looked very Eq horse to me. Of course he had a lovely metronome canter but his way of traveling didn't scream hunter to me.

[LookinSouth]

This is kind of off topic, but I have to share this horse. He is not what I would call a great mover, but watch him jump:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPQJHTtPirM&feature=channel




Does have a very nice jump with knees to his eyeballs but he is built very much like an Eq/Dressage horse if you ask me. Travels like one too. I think the high placement of his neck would make it difficult for him to truly travel like a hunter. His lovely uphill canter would be great for the dressage ring.

[Filly85']

I also just found this guy. Not anwhere close to wow, but he is too cute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUo7X60CvJA&feature=related

[twobays]

Does have a very nice jump with knees to his eyeballs but he is built very much like an Eq/Dressage horse if you ask me. Travels like one too. I think the high placement of his neck would make it difficult for him to truly travel like a hunter. His lovely uphill canter would be great for the dressage ring.

I don't want to be the kid who has to ride in the eq ring with that jump. :lol:

I like that horse quite a bit...reminds me of one of my old guys. I'd love to see him in the jumper ring.

[LookinSouth]

I don't want to be the kid who has to ride in the eq ring with that jump. :lol:

.


that makes two of us!:eek:

[RugBug]

Thanks for commenting on my clip. I was hoping someone would have something to say, good or bad.... for curiosity sake.

FWIW the horse is an Trakehner/TB cross. He usually gets good ribbons in the hack.

Is it a video of Apiro? Everytime I try to watch a clip of your horses, it freezes my computers.... I've given up trying anymore.

[2boys]

QUOTE]
Perfect Pony - Here is my hunter by DaCaprio. Good luck with your breeding. I could not recommend him more highly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlJoFhAKeMY&feature=channel_page


http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid=30326152&id=1051262893[/QUOTE]

Oh my gosh. Has he been discussed further? Sorry if I missed the section of this horse, but I think he is almost ideal! I AM NO JUDGE, just someone who loves a nice horse. He looks like the perfect combination of "ba dum, ba dum" (thanks seeuatx), while covering ground, but also has some suspension. He also looks like my grandmother could take him around a course....:lol:

[RugBug]

Sin City - while amazing, is definitely ridden more bridled up and his face is behind vertical or at vertical, mostly. Maybe it was an eq class, and I didn't notice.


It was hunters...and you're right, he is ridden more bridled. I don't think he was BTV, but he's definitely more bridled than many hunters. For me, it doesn't detract from him at all. He looks natural, relaxed and happy there. He's not being pulled/pushed into a frame, it's where he wants to be...and therefore the impression is nice. I am too surrounded by dressage and event horses to be enamored with an extreme hunter nose poke (like the ponies), but there can still be an 'ease' in a frame. Sin City has that.

Earlier in the thread there was a discussion if a top hunter could be a top dressage horse. I think Sin City could probably do either well. He'd probably change quite a bit with dressage training, and going back and forth would be difficult, but I think he's got potential as a dressage horse...

[BREEDINGMANIAC]

I PM'ed Hunter-Rider who has Sox, (the horse who took my breath away at Warrenton in the IHF 2 yr. u/s) she replied that she has a video of him at the futurity but was not sure how to upload it. She said she was going to try and get it to Lauriep to see if she could upload it- this horse not only moves from the shoulder, is a dasiy clipper and has such a GREAT trot and even a BETTER canter, so rythmic- this horse beats any video I have seen thus far. He has such a great step, but is very light on his feet (and this was in the 2 year old class u/s in 2007) only u/s for less than 45 days...just a baby! I am hoping she can get it to Lauriep to post, for those people who have not seen him in person- he is truly drool-worthy! IMO has a great carreer ahead of him.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

It was hunters...and you're right, he is ridden more bridled. I don't think he was BTV, but he's definitely more bridled than many hunters. For me, it doesn't detract from him at all. He looks natural, relaxed and happy there. He's not being pulled/pushed into a frame, it's where he wants to be...and therefore the impression is nice. I am too surrounded by dressage and event horses to be enamored with an extreme hunter nose poke (like the ponies), but there can still be an 'ease' in a frame. Sin City has that.

Earlier in the thread there was a discussion if a top hunter could be a top dressage horse. I think Sin City could probably do either well. He'd probably change quite a bit with dressage training, and going back and forth would be difficult, but I think he's got potential as a dressage horse...
Although the first few seconds of the clip posted did include a few miniscule instances where the horse got BTV (mostly before he even cantered), it was magnificent. I am biased, however, as I love my horse when he goes on the vertical. I think it demonstrates a certain level of "obedience" to see a hunter OTV around the course... However, I am not a judge, and am not saying that's what wins.