Rant about hunter "training" from a hunter rider!

[Alterrain]

I'll make it short:

showing at thermal this weekend, just modified adult stuff. but love to watch the pro divisions as well as the juniors. now I am no dummy, I know most hunters spend time on the lunge line, but I guess I thought generally they started off as kind of quiet horses. (hence hunterland for them)

well, it rained. and the schooling area was knee deep, and the lunging area GONE. So dumb me, I thought, well the hunters might be a little fresh. Instead I saw NUMEROUS BNT and their riders on horses for over two hours! Some literally never stopped cantering, a couple jumped for HOURS the same oxer out of the terrible footing. Horses tripping, white foam dripping off the hocks, sweat in their eyes, you name it. One horse that shook its head after the songle oxer came out, and the BNT SCREAMED at the girl that worked for her that the horse was way too fresh, and she better not stop cantering until the jog or he dies. (jog was 40 mins)

1. how are these horses not lame?
I don't even ride my horse if the footing is that bad- how are they wading through that and staying sound? meds?

2. are our show hunters too fit?

3. if the weather is clearly inclemate, couldn't horses be expected to be *slightly* fresher (not bucking lol, but they could overlook head shaking)

rant over. :)

[luvs2ridewbs]

I think the lungeing and over-work does affect their longevity in the sport. And in bad footing you always risk a bowed tendon or suspensory injury.

[Tex Mex]

I was at Thermal and showed this past weekend. I didn't think the footing was that bad, only in a few parts of hunter 1 warm-up. And a hunter that is shaking his head after jumping in the warm up ring is probably too fresh.

[Lucassb]

I know most hunters spend time on the lunge line, but I guess I thought generally they started off as kind of quiet horses. (hence hunterland for them)

Horses are selected for the hunter ring (at least theoretically) based on the quality of their movement and the beauty of their jump. Not because they are necessarily super quiet, although that can certainly be a plus.

The reality is that the judging in the hunter ring tends to penalize horses that display freshness, particularly in the lower level classes. The working horses - ridden almost exclusively by pros - tend to be permitted a bit more expression, but in that class, it is the quality of the jump first and foremost; whereas in your average children's hunter division, suitability (read: quiet, easy, tractable) is more heavily weighted. So the horse that can lope the lines, jump in a gorgeous bascule, and land softly cantering away is going to be the winner.

I would guess that those BNTs were prepping horses for amateur and junior clients who are used to riding horses that are very well prepared and quite quiet. I am not defending the approach of RTD (like LTD, but from the tack) but I would be surprised if many horses were jumped for hours on end. Those trainers need to keep those horses sound, after all.

Hopefully with the new emphasis on hunter derbies etc, the horses who show a bit more enthusiasm will be rewarded more frequently, but for the time being... head shaking, etc is discouraged. And if the horse shook its head with a pro (or good-as-pro designated barn rider) on it... it WAS probably too fresh.

[luvs2ridewbs]

I agree. I think everyone is ready for the hunters to be a little less "machine" like.

[zahena]

I know I'm ready to see a course that is a little more exciting than inside line to outside line to inside line......

[Flying W]

I was there too and though I didn't get out to the show grounds on Saturday until 10, I didn't think the footing was bad either, and I'm a footing weenie. However, I am from the PNW, where we're used to a little rain.

Knee deep? Those be some short legs! What I experienced in the hunter schooling areas was about 4" of sandy mud on top of a good base that my horses didn't have any trouble in, aside from a little stop-peek-at-the-puddle-n-pop over one fence in Hunter 3 or 4. I wouldn't call that a footing problem, as my guy's a looker and I should have predicted it and kept my leg on.

Was it messy and bad walking around? Most definitely! But not in the rings, IMO. And the sudden temperature drop, combined with some strong tent-flapping winds the couple of days before did make for frisky horses.

[findeight]

2. are our show hunters too fit?

3. if the weather is clearly inclemate, couldn't horses be expected to be *slightly* fresher (not bucking lol, but they could overlook head shaking)


Nope, show Hunters are not "too fit". Fact preference is to keep them a little under dead fit so they can work the edge off if they end up too fresh. Fine line between fit enough to stay sound and not so fit they are an iron horse if they end up too fresh.

And, Nope. They do not overlook head shaking or anything else that detracts, they just compare it to all the other trips and score it accordingly. Judges do not make excuses for any behavior, they just judge.

Far as what you saw...these horses live in 10x10 stalls for weeks with no turn out and most are fit enough to jump 2 to 4 days a week (like, 30 to 40 fences at heights to 4' and up), do their flatwork and get turned out at least several hours a day at most farms. They get FRESH at the shows and they are not going to trot out of that in 15 minutes.

I also suspect a little exaggeration here as have seen some bad s*it in my time but never, ever seen anybody jump a single fence for HOURS timed on a clock, never knew a real BNT (that was any good) that had several hours to scream in a muddy warm up ring and...well...that girl that jumped that oxer and had the horse buck got yelled at for jumping one that was too fresh to jump. And trot/canter for 30 or 40 minutes on a fresh and well conditioned show Hunter is not going to break them. Hel*, you do that in most clinics. And they do sweat between the back legs and it foams and runs down the leg sometimes if they are working hard. But working hard is not in and of itself any kind of abuse.

Not defending anything here, some overdo it and others depend on a tired horse for an unsuitable match with a less capable rider in the show ring. And some do work them into the ground and beak them.

But what you describe is a a little exaggerated unless you had a watch and sat and timed the whole thing.

Cheerfully admit to sitting on mine for nearly 2 hours a time or two for the specific purpose of wearing them out a little. Course, prefer to take a long hack with that time but if there is no room? Schooling ring.

And if you walked by and saw me cantering then walked by again and hour later and saw me cantering on a sweaty horse-you might assume I was cantering the whole hour NOT. But it might seem I was. Have an idea that is what happened here.

[ybiaw]

I totally agree with findeight.

Back in my hunter showing days, if my horse was fresh, I'd work him relatively hard until I got him "where I wanted him" - loping around a course, but still expressive in his style over fences, and able to go around on a loose-ish rein in the hacks. Otherwise, I'd have a firebreathing dragon O/F and a wrestling match in the hack.

[galwaybay]

I used to think it was ridiculous that some trainers/riders would lunge their horses for what seemed to be ages; then maybe schooled them for what seemed to be ages - and then I realized #1) Many of these horses are stabled at shows and therefore not able to be "turned out" all day (or night) and therefore do need to get some exercise or work in. While it is not perfect - 8 hours of turnout has to be compressed into a shorter time. I do not condone over-working, over stressing horses, but I do understand the need for a horse to get out and be worked - if nothing else his gut has to be moving. So from that standpoint I understand the lunging and schooling. And then there's the prep for the rider's standpoint... that is another issue (i'm being devi's advocate right now:lol:)

[CaliforniaSyndrome]

I find it so silly how a while ago some local made a topic about me, my clients horse, and a good friend of mine who played assistant at shows. The horse was FRESH, and since I don't agree with lunging a horse as long as you could while working I had her "ride it out", much less than an hour, and jumping for less than that. Well, a spectator came to COTH, gave detail by detail of the horse, rider, and trainer and the replies were not in my favor, talk of "cruelty" etc...

I was shocked, now I glad to see the greater of you are on my page, or I am on yours! I'm not one for creating soundness issues, but I'm certianly one for preparing a horse for it's rider!

[eventchic33]

There's a difference between riding a horse into the ground and riding 'till it's ring ready.

Learn the difference.

Maybe you shouldn't be showing at Thermal until you do.

[crackerjack]

I (as a hunter rider)take regular clinics with a dressage coach (from Europe so he doesn't quite get the whole hunter thing) and he has mentioned on several occassions that the majority of the hunters he's seen over here do not get worked enough and should do more canter work. I highly doubt the footing was knee deep maybe a little sloppy but no person or horse could get through knee deep mud.

My horse can get rediculously fit and if you wanted to could keep going for hours. Lungeing doesn't work so I warm him up under saddle. If you saw me at a show you might think that I was cantering all that time but that's not the case.... lots of transitions to get his mind focused and lots of walking, bending etc. I warm up for half an hour.

[Trixie's mom]

I think we're being a little hard on the OP here...expecting her to fully understand what goes on at these shows-

I used to think people over worked thier horses at shows...doing things that i felt bordered on cruelty. Then a friend gave me another perspective...these horse have a great life...best food, best vets, etc...while there is true abuse at shows the majority of horses are well cared for.

These Show horses are athletes...athletes work HARD...my suggestion is go to the barns on the horse's day off and see how they are...most will greet you at the stall door. you'll see them wrapped, bedded and comfortable. They will probably be contendedly eating hay or snoozing...

Moments in time do not tell the whole story...

For what it's worth, i'd rather ride my horse down then drug her to get the desired temperment in the ring.

[EventMore]

Phew, nice to hear from Crackerjack. I am an eventer and have one horse in particular who is very anxious and fresh at events. I never quite get him settled before I enter the ring or startbox and always wonder how hunter riders do it. The 1st rant/post sounded a little exaggerated, but she admitted it was a rant. I'm OK with that. Then I read the bit about the horse shaking it's head on the landing side. That would be the least of my worries...

But the thread seems to imply a link between fatigue and a calm performance in the ring...until Crackerjack. I believe that if you want your horse to jump at its best, calmness comes from submission, obedience and throughness, not from fatigue. Bending, transitions, and basic dressage shapes all create submission and throughness. If only it worked well enough for my wild man, but you get the picture.

Now what to do about settlinghorses for their lower level riders I don't know. We event trainers aren't allowed to warm up the horses (or coach/click/do anything from ringside), so my clients don't compete unless they can do it safely themselves. We do, however, live with some head shaking on the landing side.

[EqTrainer]

Don't forget - these horses are being stabled 24/7. Lots of super quiet horses become freaks when stuck inside day after day, after day...

It takes a lot of hacking and ring work to make up the difference. Sweat is not your enemy ;)

[findeight]

But we do not want them fatigued. At all. Then they are dull and, despite what you may read on here, the dull trip is not the winner in a Junior, A/O or Regular at the big shows and rarely pins that well in the 3'...or even 2'6". They need to be expressive if you expect to do well. And they break when they get "overprepped".

So there is a fine line in conditioning to that goal. You will get nailed for ouright disobediance, no excuses are acceptable, the judge just judges the performance of the horse and that is where we are very different then Eventing.

I think what was going on in this example was schooling on a non show day for these horses when they may have been in the stall all day because of the weather the previous one. They needed alot of work and to work off the excess energy and they were getting it.

In mid show season, I even work mine about 40 to 45 on the flat at the trot and canter to maintain fitness, and she will be puffing and sweating-but stay fit enough to do her job. Day before the first classes I will do that and then add an hour hack out (if there is a place) or just stay in that ring with walk breaks but more trot and canter work. Most don't jump much to prep.

I think in OPs case, she may not have been around alot of the higher performance and younger horses and may not realize how much it takes, how much we really do ride those Hunters-it's more then 40 mins 3 times a week.

[twohotponies]

My daughter and I were at Thermal on Sunday. We got there by 11:00 and it was cloudy and cold, then warm and sunny, then cloudy and cold...all the horses we saw were relatively quiet except for the jumper who was rearing on his ride back to the barn.:)

The roads were a mess, very muddy and slippery except for the main road that had this lovely deep rubber stuff over the pavement. The warm up rings looked nice to me, I didn't see any really deep mud or horses slipping around. The hunter rings looked a little wet in places but the jumper rings were nicely packed down. We did see a lot of warming up but nothing in the hunter area that we wouldn't see at any other show. The Grand Prix warm up on the other hand...man are those horses fit!

We watched the hunters for a while and you can see the warm up rings and the show rings equally from where we stood. Some people were cantering for a while and then they would walk for a while before going back to canter. It didn't look stressful for the horses and I am sure it was better for them than standing around getting cold before they had to go into the ring. All in all I liked what I saw and we are going back for week 6 to watch some more, hopefully my daughter will be able to show there next year.

[Cathbad]

Honestly? I was a little taken aback that the OP did not add 'cruelty' to her list of questions. Given her description -- 'hours of riding' and 'white foam coming off the hocks and eyes,' etc. -- it seems that the OP was a little blind to the real issue...

Hunters too fresh? How about horses ridden to a crisp. That's not good horsemanship, plain and simple...

I know, I know, it's been said that the OP maybe couldn't have timed the amount of riding time apparently being logged, etc., but maybe mis-stated the events of Thermal's schooling rings. BUT, if one were to walk in to a horse show and be witness to hours of riding, and white foam streaming off of horses, well, the issue isn't hunter prep but cruelty. That would be my first concern...

[LH]

Ever sat on a naughty horse that used his freshness as an excuse to unload you in the corner, just for fun, and every time you went by that corner, or passed the white pony? And you're an older A/O, there's no where to lunge, and the turnout is a muddy mess?

In that situation, I might be riding one until there's some foam between his fat hind legs. He's sweaty, so what? Maybe his coat is a little thicker than the just-clipped ones. He'll get to take some walk breaks, and hopefully take a deep breath to relax, but if keeps spooking and trying to buck me off, we start cantering again.

It's happened. Horse got a big bath and bucket of water when he was done. That's not cruelty.

[Jealoushe]

Ever sat on a naughty horse that used his freshness as an excuse to unload you in the corner, just for fun, and every time you went by that corner, or passed the white pony? And you're an older A/O, there's no where to lunge, and the turnout is a muddy mess?

In that situation, I might be riding one until there's some foam between his fat hind legs. He's sweaty, so what? Maybe his coat is a little thicker than the just-clipped ones. He'll get to take some walk breaks, and hopefully take a deep breath to relax, but if keeps spooking and trying to buck me off, we start cantering again.

It's happened. Horse got a big bath and bucket of water when he was done. That's not cruelty.

Maybe you just need a horse you can ride.

[findeight]

That's a little on the snarky side...how do you get your Show Hunter ready for classes when it's been raining for days and they are in the tent stalls?

I ride mine awhile too, until they stop spooking, bucking, snorting and acting stupid every time that Pony passes. I actually rather think I am a better rider for being able to work that out even if I do get unloaded.

Like I said, what system do you use...or do yours just not act up because they are perfect matches for perfect riders and are never fresh, even living in tents at the shows in bad weather??

[ybiaw]

That's a little on the snarky side...how do you get your Show Hunter ready for classes when it's been raining for days and they are in the tent stalls?

I ride mine awhile too, until they stop spooking, bucking, snorting and acting stupid every time that Pony passes. I actually rather think I am a better rider for being able to work that out even if I do get unloaded.

Like I said, what system do you use...or do yours just not act up because they are perfect matches for perfect riders and are never fresh, even living in tents at the shows in bad weather??

Once again I agree with Findeight, who was able to express herself much more eloquently than I, and with fewer bad words.

[twobays]

There's a difference between riding a horse into the ground and riding 'till it's ring ready.

Learn the difference.

Maybe you shouldn't be showing at Thermal until you do.

How exactly do YOU know if these horses were ridden to death or if they were prepped nicely? Seeing that you aren't the OP and you didn't see the exact same things, how are you better able to judge the situation than her? :confused:

[ExJumper]

Once again I agree with Findeight, who was able to express herself much more eloquently than I, and with fewer bad words.

:yes:

Isn't the first rule of horsemanship "forward?" If my horse balks, press him forward. If my horse spooks, press him forward. I'd rather see someone working their fresh horse forward through their issues than standing there picking picking picking until the damn thing goes up and over.

Jealoushe seems a bit cranky today. I think I can ride my horses quite well and they still try to pitch me off every once in a while.

[Silk]

Call me old...call me a whimp...call me a non-horseman but I dont want to ride my spooking, snorting, headshaking beast over a 4 ft course, never mid a 4 ft course;)

[chukkerchild]

Working them down is the right thing to do, isn't it? It's a lot better than drugs IMHO. While I don't agree with lunging all night to produce a robotic, beyond exhausted horse in the morning, I think getting on early and cantering Mr. Fresh-o around in circles until he's attentive versus explosive is a good idea. It's like when I go for a run before class, or do two-point w/ no stirrups before a lesson. I'm warmed up and quieted down and don't flail half so much :)

[JumpRoo]

While i agree with some comments going both ways for me, i love my horses super fit (yes playing) and i almost never lunge/ride more than 20 (I only pick one and i would much rather ride them). It bothers me to no end that i get penalized because my horses shakes his head after one jump or swishes his tail even if we ride a forward and beautiful ride. I hope that the judging changes because i know that if you put my horse out in a hunt field he would gallop around and not blow a sweat with, OMG yes! a shake of the head but being a HORSE, not a machine!

[WorthTheWait95]

Like I said, what system do you use...or do yours just not act up because they are perfect matches for perfect riders and are never fresh, even living in tents at the shows in bad weather??

Slightly off topic but one of the things I miss most about showing on the circuit are those mornings (especially in KY!) when it's a little chilly and the horses come out of their stalls a little fire breathing. Maybe it's just because my horses usually take alot of leg but I love getting to trot and canter for a while without having to kill my legs. The best rides were the hacks out in the cross country fields in KY. Just go until they tell you they've worked all their kinks out.

I did jumpers exclusively for the last 10 years so I didn't need to worry about a little head shaking or tail swishing if they had a little extra energy left before a class. When I did hunters I had the saint to end all saints and he never needed to be longed or ridden excessively. I would hand walk and graze him after our classes to get him out of his stall for a few more hours every day and prevent stocking/stiffening up but that was it.

[dogchushu]

I must say this is the first time I've seen someone ask if hunters are too fit! Usually I hear that they're, well, obese!

[yellowbritches]

I ride mine awhile too, until they stop spooking, bucking, snorting and acting stupid every time that Pony passes. I actually rather think I am a better rider for being able to work that out even if I do get unloaded.

Jeez, I do the same thing...with my EVENT horses. I rather ride them through the silliness.

I think this is all pretty funny and the OP might be a bit out of touch. I know for a fact that a lot of event horses, especially upper level ones, get ridden A LOT before dressage. Often at horse trials, if the timing works out, the rider will hack/school their horse for an hour or more in the morning, put the horse away, then spend equally as long warming it up for the dressage ring. Same principle. The horse has to be calm and pleasant to watch. In the hunters stuck in their stalls at a rainy show, it is confinement and show vibes that make them fresh. With eventers, it is the fact that they are fit enough to gallop xc the next day and show vibes that make them fresh.

And I really, really rather seen them "RTD" instead of LTD. No matter the discipline.

[Cathbad]

Oh, dear, LH, please read:
<<white foam dripping off the hocks, sweat in their eyes,>>

That degree of work is not even comparable to what you describe in your post:
<<In that situation, I might be riding one until there's some foam between his fat hind legs.>>

No one said don't make 'em safe, but a show hunter with foam down their legs ... yeesh.
Another way to approach getting a hunter ready, like, how 'bout 2 rides that day, or starting their work a day or 2 earlier... just a thought.

[justathought]

A hunter should be fit and ready to go into the ring. And, keeping them in work and getting them ready to ride can take more time on one day than another.

OTOH, the OP was describing something that, if accurate, most of us would agree is too much....

And we've all see it... including the white boards that say LTD...

We are responsible for our horses' fitness and for doing what we can to maximize there useful lives

I too look forward to the day when a hunter can show a little personality and not be penalized for it... but I don't expect it to happen

[mvp]

Just weighing in on the many issues involved here. To take them apart:

1) Hunters as fresh and too fit (almost never) or quite unfit (much more often the case)...

2) The ideal hunter as

a) a horse with free will, joie de vivre and all;

b) a machine-- made that way by drugs or overwork

c) The original definition-- a horse you would really like to gallop cross country (while a little drunk and maybe not too fit yourself) on a Sunday morning behind a pack of foxhounds.

d) the horse who will willingly pack your sorry bones around either the huntfield or the ring because he is beautifully, beautifully trained; because he not only likes his job, but understands it well enough to do it without much help from you.

So all this is to say that, genuine horse freshness aside, I think part of the reason horses get "fresh" is because they are either bored or overwhelmed; they run because that's what confused horses do. Both problems are built into the show hunter's life on the circuit. There is, however, a solution, but it involves effort on the rider's/trainer's part.

Case in point: My own show hunter-- who can also move cattle, deliver a decent dressage test, and then pack my mom around on any given day-- needs no drugs or lunging. That's because when we show I make an effort to mentally prepare him. I offer him a long hand walk that includes unstructured time to look, explore, graze, whatever. I offer him time on the lungeline, just to simulate the other half of turnout-- the opportunity to use his body they way he wants. By the time I actually got on, he is ready to do his job and therefore enjoys the "conversation" we have during a ride. I don't have to spend time on his back trying not to come off, or waiting (at a gallop) until he decides to get rideable. By the way, and like any well-broke horse, he should expect to have me ask things of him when I'm on his back. My job is to figure out a way to get him ready to be ridden before hand, and to do that in a way that addresses his mind and body. My point is that some of that is a strategy of mental preparation that puts very little milage on his body.

So, to return to the Platonic form of a hunter-- especially one ridden by an amateur or a child-- the horse ought to be mentally "right there" first and foremost. Regardless of how simple and quiet his job in the ring looks, don't forget that you have to teach your hunter a great deal before he can manage all the details of a horse show well enough to deliver that effortless-looking performance in the ring.

-mvp

[Eventer13]

I sort of chuckle at the fact that the judges won't pin any slightly naughty horses, considering that many of the field hunters I've seen have been semi-psycho, at least at the start of the hunt. I really don't see a problem with a little kicking up of the heels as long as the rider can handle it easily. Rather that than a dull or lazy horse- I would not want to ride something half-asleep across trappy country.

Yes, yes, I know, that's not how the show hunter is judged. But it does make me wonder how many good fox hunters would fail if they tried going the show hunter route, and vice-versa.

[LH]

Maybe you just need a horse you can ride.

YOU are hilarious - if you knew who I was, you wouldn't say that.

[Flying W]

Oh, please. I was there, same rings, same days, same time. Just like there wasn't any knee-deep mud (except maybe for the JRTs), there wasn't any foam dripping off of hocks.

Oh, dear, LH, please read:
<<white foam dripping off the hocks, sweat in their eyes,>>

[findeight]

Another way to approach getting a hunter ready, like, how 'bout 2 rides that day, or starting their work a day or 2 earlier... just a thought.

Well maybe they did get 2 rides that day and, remember, it rained the day before. And, they do get a day off.

For those that mentioned hacking out, yeah, if you are at the KHP or something. This was Thermal, middle of the desert near the border. Fenced in. No hacking out anywhere other then around the parking lot.

Had to chuckle though. This is a real latecomer of an H/J circuit and the third change of venue.

Back when, we had to share the grounds with the Date Festival-anybody remember the ostriches and camel penned right on the other side of the 10' tall plywood around the main ring? I remember being outside the main ring warming up during the ostrich races and getting wrapped around a date palm when my horse decided he did not want to be in the same state.

Or the Santa Barbara Flower Show when they had a Dutch theme and put a revolving windmill smack in the middle of the ring.:eek:. That was fun.

Nope it is a horse show. Not a fox hunt, Event or hack out. Galloping across the fields has nothing to do with what these horses have to be ready for.

[Cathbad]

totally minor point, Flying W, I didn't post the foam between hind legs thing. That was the OP...

I hear you Find8, but my comments are really meant in general, not specifically to this horse or that. I realize how limited show grounds are, and cantering 9 million times around the very edge of the schooling rings is the closest you're going to get to mimicking an open field, but if horses are getting so fresh, esp. ones that don't need to a strong level of fitness like eventers, maybe it's time to change the approach. Feed, number of rides a day, more handwalking, more tack walking, more handgrazing, fewer shows... I dunno. I was remarking in my later post that it sort of sounds like people need to adjust the management of the horses. And I realized it 'd rained like crazy, but I've hacked horses and handwalked horses in downpours, b/c they needed to get out. Put on a rain sheet, put up your hood... I know, goody for me, but still...

[luvs2ridewbs]

I think the problem stems from the stereotype that all hunter trainers achieve a quiet horse by drugs or over lungeing or over riding. Someone who is new to the hunter jumper world steps onto the show grounds, sees a sweating horse and assumes that the horse is being abused since that is what others outside the discipline have told this person. And yes, there are unscrupulous trainers who brought a bunch of unsuitable horses, and use LTD as a way to fix the problem. Low and behold the stereotype is born. I tend to put this stereotype into the box with all the others: Event riders and horses are crazy, Dressage riders are afraid to leave the ring, etc

[LH]

luvs2ridewbs -- good point

How many horses are there at Thermal - 3,000? (I have no idea, just guessing), and out of that many, there are 20 really really fresh ones that need to canter around the ring for a while? Not a big deal.

The OP's post raises the same old issues that people love to use to criticize hunter BNTs. Yes, on occasion a really fresh horse -- for WHATEVER reason -- needs some extra time in the ring, cantering around, to get rid of energy. The goal is to have a quiet relaxed horse in the ring -- a horse that is too tired will not jump well, may not pass the jog, may not swap its leads, and is too dull even for what we like in the hunter ring today.

If you've been to the Grand Prix ring at a dressage show, you'll see the same thing - riders really working the horses hard - lots of sweat and foam -- to train on the super fit horses. Those horses at the top level are incredibly fit and strong. That level of fitness and work is not unusual, and not cruel.

Same thing for many GP jumpers - some of them have a really hard flat session in the morning before a class - most of those horses get ridden twice a day, and it is not unusual to see them flatted hard in the morning, kicking up a lot of foamy sweat.

I'm not advocating riding a horse to exhaustion, but I wouldn't equate what the OP described as "abuse"

[JumpRoo]

of course there is a sterotype that all show hunters are drugged or LTD but when you actually spent time behind the scenes, many of them typically are a little 'overdone'. due to the uprise in weathly horse owners that no longer personally care for their horses (even if only at shows) because they pay the trainer to 'win' if the judges want a dead lazy horse and the pre-adult goes in a their horse so much as picks an eye up they either leave trainers or blame the horse/trainer/groom. If judges made it so that a horse could have a little energy then it wouldnt be so darn stressful!!!

[Princess Lauren]

I like reading this topic. I grew up riding and showing in Virginia. So I grew up riding and preparing my horses. Down in my new neck of the woods, sometimes I feel I'm being glared at and talked about while I'm preparing horses and ponies for my kids. Why would I want a customer of mine get on to show on a wild horse? Sure, of course they'll ride better if they figure it out.... but that's what home is for. Sometimes the horses are quiet, sometimes they're not. That's why I get on early to get them right. If they're quiet, I just do a little tune... get them listening, soft and balanced. If they're wild, I do the same thing. I just stay on longer.

I hate lunging. I hate making them run in tight circles, too much stress on their joints, especially hocks. I can't make final tunes from the end of the lunge line. I'd much rather ride through it. Sure my back hurts, but I signed up for this job and I'm going to do it right.

If I'm getting it ready for me.... that means I'm showing it for a customer or one of my own sales horses. So it needs to be perfect, I don't have an excuse.

[charizard]

I completely agree with Princess Lauren (and the majority of the other posters).
I would take riding the kinks out of my horse before a class than lunging them to death any day--thats what will make them lame, not necessarily riding them for an hour or more. If the lunging areas were gone, then I'm glad that the trainers were riding the horses as opposed to sending them out to lunge anyway, which I have seen and which is pretty scary.

[starkissed]

the problem is they work their bodies but not their brains.
First problem is they don't get turnout enough so they are 'fresh'. Then they get put on the lunge where they work up fitness.
Then they go back in stall and are pumped with food.

and no, I don't think all of them are sound (hence all the injections) and if they are, they probably won't last terribly long.

[luvs2ridewbs]

Thou at most large show venues paddocks are available to those who want them. Granted the ones at VSF leave something to be desired.... So if the horse needs T/O, there is a way to get them out.

[findeight]

Thou at most large show venues paddocks are available to those who want them. Granted the ones at VSF leave something to be desired.... So if the horse needs T/O, there is a way to get them out.

Does Thermal even have paddocks? There is not ALWAYS a way to get it at the shows because a great many places just do not have any. Those that do offer very few and the big barns snap them up-they are not available to just go turn the horse out in.

Heck, out in California, many home barns don't have any serious turn out either. A 20x20 pipe corral in the sand.

[LH]

Most of the horse shows only offer smallish round pens that you wouldn't want your horse to run around in anyway. Our barn always has 1-2 turnout pens at the shows, but lately they are the metal portable ones (even at KHP), and I think they are good for some horses to get out in them to hang out without a human holding on, but it's not the same as being at home with a large pasture. Horse show turnout won't take the edge off if one is fresh, but gives them a little grass and time to roll in the dirt.

A young, green, and/or fit one still is going to need to do a little work to take off the top layer of extra energy, especially after a day off.

[luvs2ridewbs]

I've never been to thermal and yes I know most shows have small t/o. I was thinking of Ocala which has great t/o comparatively.

[Peggy]

You can rent access to a turn-out pen by the week at Thermal. Two years ago the footing was so bad that our barn never used ours. Plus, they were in Siberia. Of course, our tent was about 3/4 of the way to Siberia, so we had a smaller hike to them than some.

[DMK]

Like LH said, there are thousands of horses at these shows. WEF used to have about 12 slots for lunging if you really hunted high and low and most lunging areas are deserted long before noon. Do the math. How much LTD could really happen on a global scale? Ditto for horses being over-ridden to get to the ring. It's not as prevalent as one might think. Probably the most prevalent abuse in hunterland is in exactly the opposite direction: a lack of proper warm up. Many trainers simply do not have the time to properly warm all their horses up before they start jumping and the benefit of walking may be the long walk to the ring, which may or may not be followed by 30 minutes standing around waiting for the trainer to get to that ring/horse.

It's just as bad for the long term soundness as LTD and RTD, but its not one I ever heard the peanut gallery raise as an issue (it doesn't quite fit into the party line you understand).

Yes, of course there ARE horses who are LTD'd and RTD'd on a regular basis. I know one freak that LTD'd every day the horse was at the show grounds, then had it RTD'd in the schooling ring on non-show days and then on one more memorable occasion, put one her horses in about 18 classes over the week. My personal favorite was when she hunted around to get people to fill a division that ran after the main rated division just so she could enter the poor thing in it and get another tricolor, because you know unrated schooling divisions with 3 horses in it are the ribbons we covet most. :rolleyes: But really, she is such an exception to the rule and such a freak that people sit up and notice. She's not the norm and everyone knows it. But if you were to judge everyone by this one person's idiocy, we would all fare poorly.

And sometimes a horse does get ridden a lot or lunged a lot on occasion. I consider my horse fairly simple to get to the ring and he rides around in a happy mouth mullen mouth on a loose rein, but I would be lying if I said he was ALWAYS like that. On at least a couple occasions in his very long show career he woke up on the wrong side of the stall and was a complete asshole for no reason that I could tell. Fair enough, I wake up as a real ass some days too, but I still have to go to work. I remember a couple years ago I went out and warmed him up and he was a dead quiet loopy rein ride. Being the nice mom I went with less is more in the schooling area, then we went in the warm up class where he woke up, decided he didn't like where he was and took off, dragging me down every. fricking. line. So yeah, I left the ring, had them move me down about 6 horses and went back out to the schooling ring and trained on him until he rediscovered his inner hunter zen and then went back and rode his two classes, which were still not ribbon-worthy, but considerably better than the first one which was all I was really after.

If you ASSUMED that was my normal routine wouldn't you look like an ass? What would you have someone do in that case? Pet precious on the nose and put him up or train on him? If someone came on this BB and said every time they rode precious at home he was totally disobedient and their training strategy was to ignore it completely, how many pages of debate do you think that would spark? Why would it be different at a show? And why would you think out of thousands of horses at a show you will not see at least a few having those sorts of days?

[MLP]

I haven't been able to read all of the posts but I did get a thought going through some of them. These animals are athletes, so during a general routine wouldn't you expect an athlete to be sweating, with an increased heart rate and breathing. Yes, I would. Now I am not saying people out there don't abuse / overwork horses, come on, in all disciplines there are those that do that. However, these animals need to be kept fit and fitness requires effort, no matter what the animal. As for LTD, one of my horses is funny, he gets wound up the more he does. I keep him fit, do lots of long hacks and trail rides but let's say the classic is at the end of the last day of showing. He can go and will be fresher in the classic then in any of the classes. It's kind of funny, it's like he rev's up. He is not a horse that requires prep, a generally quiet warmblood but when you expect him to be exhausted he somehow switches to his reserve tank. One time he even left a stride out in one of the lines, not that he was running he was just so forward and open with his step and I thought, that was 5 not 6.... All of them are individual and show confinement definitely requires them to get out via riding and lungeing vs. turnout.