Dogs with weak ACL like Horse with bad stifles?

[equinelaw]

I am dog-sitting a Boxer. He is a little off in his L-H and his owner says he has a weak ACL.

He does not normally get much exercise. He gets along walk on a leash, but not much running around. He has been regularly walking for about 3 months now.

He is somewhat insane if he does not get any good exercise. He is on his 5th home and probably his last one. After 4 days of getting to run around for 10-15 minutes 3 times a day he is now almost a normal dog.

I let him run 4 times yesterday and he was a little sore on his good leg and licking the stifle. Today he was sound again and not sore.

So, if this were a horse then exercise would be good and make him better. Is it good for a dog? Bad for a dog? Is a rupture a given if its weak or something that should be prevented even if the dog is intolerable without a good run now and then?

He is soooooo much happier and mentally healthier with exercise, but I don't want his acl to blow. Without exercise he is narrowly escaping being put down.

He has gone from constant barking (like separation anxiety whether he is alone or not--crazy) and leaping in the air at people's faces to walking on a regular collar with no leash tension and being almost normal about 22.5 hours a day pretty fast.

He is about 6 years old and seems to love the farm life after being tossed around apartments and burbs for years where he terrorized all his other owners.

Lame and sane or sound and crazy? Which is better for him? Will exercise make it worse or better?

Do all Boxers grunt like pigs:confused::)

[Ghazzu]

Different ligaments.
Cruciate ligaments are intracapsular ligaments.
They are inside the joint and hold the tibia and femur together and limit the cranial and caudal excursion.

The patellar ligaments are extracapsular and hold the patella in place and are cranial to the stifle joint itself. Function as sort of a continuation of the tendons of the quadriceps femoris . In horses, are part of the stay apparatus to allow the animal to stand with little muscular effort.

I would be cautious about strenuous exercise in an animal with an iffy cruciate ligament.
If the ligament ruptures, the stifle joint will be unstable.
Surgery is an option in dogs.

[equinelaw]

Thanks.

After surgery is it as good as in a dog with no problems or will it just rupture again?

I'd hate for him to be put down, but it seems exercise is the only antidote to his behavior problems. ACL surgery might be more realistic then brain surgery.

[amdfarm]

Our 2yo Lab (hunting dog and trained for it) tore his ACL. We opted for surgery because, well, he was our huntin' partner and young. I watched the surgery and it was fascinating, thought I don't remember a whole lot of it. My son was a toddler then and he was in the clinic, too. Had to keep track of him and go back and forth.

He got to come home right after it, but had to be kept quiet. We left him in his crate overnight and outside in his kennel and let him out to potty several times a day and eat. Being a very happy go lucky and on the go type of dog, keeping him quiet was easier than I ever thought it would be. Leaving him in the kennel most of the time helped w/ that. It was summer and he healed great and was back to hunting ducks that fall. Never had another problem w/ it. I lost him last summer at 13.

[Reds-n-Greys]

Bless you for taking this guy in. My mom's rescue boxer had her ACL done. Prior to the surgery, if she ran on it, she would be very sore for a day or two and her vet strongly urged her to have the surgery before it ruptured. As I recall exercise was not going to strengthen it.
Despite my mom not being able to walk her on a leash as much as she should have during the recovery period, it healed very well and she (the dog) is now able to run and play like a pup - well, an overstuffed sausage looking pup, but still, she's quite happy and a great companion for my mom.

[eqsiu]

Exercise that is too boisterous can lead to a torn cruciate ligament. Ask me how I know. My dog has had bilateral cruciate repairs. It sucks. There's really not a whole lot that can be done. For dogs with issues (assuming no tears) slow and steady exercise like long walks are best. Unfortunately, boxers have huge amounts of energy. Even fully healthy ones are hard to wear out. The results of surgery depend a lot on the method. Active and large dogs usually get TPLO repairs, which are higher tech. I was broke, and working for a vet who only knew how to do extra-capsilar repairs, so that's what I did for both. If Skippy really runs like an idiot or slips or something he will limp for a day or two. I just give him aspirin 2x a day until he looks better. The only odd thing is that he kneels when his knees hurt. Like, stands on his knees with his lower legs out behind him. It's weird.

[Blinkers On]

Be careful with exercise. TPLO is expensive, and time consuming on the owner's part. Soft tissue no matter where it is is a bitch to heal! And does require a fair bit of down time. I have never been told that time actually heals this type of injury though if it did, it would be time + "stall" rest.
It's my understanding that in bow legged dogs are more prone to cruciate and luxating patella (I don't know if this is true or not) than other types of dogs.
One of my dogs was "supposed" to have a cruciate tear, but didn't. Has slight "drawer" in both stifles, but also has laxity in both knee joints. One was sore and much worse than the other. She had her first surgery for that Nov 12, 08. He has subsequently had two more surgeries on the same joint though one was to remove the hardware. Thousands and thousands of dollars, massive mental and trauma (for me), sleepless nights spent lying on the floor with her as she cried in pain post op (inspite of aggressive pain therapy), and almost 3 months of house arest. Carried up and down any and all stairs, confined and tranq'd. I now finally have a dog that is able to run and play again!
The problem with having one stifle injury is that it is probable that you will eventually have the same problem on the other leg. Sort of a compensating injury that they are either genetically or conformationally predisposed to.

[S1969]

I'm not sure that dogs can have "weak" ACLs....I would think it's more likely that there is a partial rupture already. When it does fully rupture it is much less stable, but I would imagine a partial rupture is pretty sore and somewhat unstable for the dog.

I've posted about this before but my dog had a TTA (similar to TPLO) rather than the cruciate "repair", however that is done. My dog came back from his surgery feeling great and in so little pain that we actually took him off all the pain meds in hopes of quieting him down a little for the first couple of days.

TPLO recovery is not fun, but it's pretty manageable, especially if you already have a dog that doesn't typically run free. The worst time is before the staples come out just because you have to protect the incision. After that my guy was on "crate rest" for 90 days, which essentially meant that unless he was being supervised on carpeted floors or on a leash to do his business outside, he was in his crate. Which sounds horrible but really wasn't too bad. They do get used to it. I did sleep with him on a mattress on the floor because he's a bed-sleeper and we didn't want him to jump up on the bed. But even that wasn't so bad.

Definitely worth the $ and time for a full recovery. But important to slowly increase activity level afterwards especially to protect the intact ACL..."weekend warrior dogs" often tear the ACL and then go on to tear the other one because they aren't used to the stress on their joints.

[JSwan]

My mother has a dog that acted just like the one you're dog sitting.

She just paid over 2K for surgery on one leg. I think what finally did him in was continually jumping up to see what was on the kitchen counter. (former starvation case that is still food obsessed). She couldn't get him to stop and then one day he was dead lame.

He needs the ACL on the other leg done too - but she doesn't have the money for that so she had the really bad leg done first.

That's a helluva lot of money! I had no idea it was that expensive. Geez - my back surgery cost only a few thousand more than that.

Hope the dog is feeling better soon.

[eqsiu]

the cruciate "repair", however that is done.

I'll start by apologizing in case your response was not meant to be snarky. Perhaps having to work with a certain co-worker is ruining my mood.

Anyway, you can't "repair" the ligament itself. When people speak of cruciate reapors they refer to some sort of surgery to restabilize the joint. My dog had this procedure (http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/knee.htm) done on both of his knees. It is an old-fashioned but econimocal way to go. One knee has an actual wire in it, the other has a nylon filament. While the filament is stronger and unlikely to break, if it breaks removal is generally necessary. With the wire, for whatever reason, even broken it doesn't cause a problem (and Skippy's was broken 6 months later).

[BuddyRoo]

Ghazzu covered the technical answer to your question...

But in case you're wondering what kind of exercise is okay vs what is not....

Straight line walking/jogging on even terrain (sidewalk) is good.

Quick starts/stops/turns like out playing ball or with other dogs would be more likely to create a problem.

In some cases (and I'm not a vet nor do I play one on TV) we had clients whose dogs had partial tears and they were trying to avoid surgery. So we essentially put the dogs in a "doggy PT" program. Several did well with this, but they never really could return to full out off-leash play time.

If your friends don't have a true diagnosis (and "weak ACL" doesn't sound like a real diagnosis to me), then it might be worth their time to figure out what really IS going on. Might even be some arthritic changes that could be helped with some Adequan or NSAIDs to keep the dog more comfortable.

[mroades]

And yes, boxers grunt like pigs....lol

[gloriginger]

just a thought- excercise is important, but you can also work his mind without stressing out his joints- that will tire him as well. Teach him things, like to stay and then come to you. To give his paw- anything you want really- but I would imagine he needs his mind worked as much as the physical aspects.

Also - if he isn't he really should be on a joint supplement, and also vitamin C. If one leg did have the tear, surgery etc. most likely the other will go at some point.

I thought my dog had a partial tear- I created another thread on it- back in late Dec. if you want to read that, but it turned to be her lower back.

[Home Again Farm]

It sounds like the dog may have a partial tear. I have gone through TPLO surgeries with two dogs. The surgery is very expensive and has a long and very detailed recovery. Both dogs recovered perfectly, but TPLO is not something I would look forward to again. :no:

If the dog has a partial tear, jumping, running with sudden turns or stops could make it a complete tear. The best exercise for dogs with a problem like this is long, controlled leash walks and swimming. :yes: Letting this dog tear around on its own is a recipe for a very expensive surgery.

Some breeds are much more prone to knee problems than others. Boxers, Labs, Newfoundlands, Rottweilers are high on the problem prone list. :(

[S1969]

I'll start by apologizing in case your response was not meant to be snarky. Perhaps having to work with a certain co-worker is ruining my mood.

Anyway, you can't "repair" the ligament itself. When people speak of cruciate reapors they refer to some sort of surgery to restabilize the joint. My dog had this procedure (http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/knee.htm) done on both of his knees. It is an old-fashioned but econimocal way to go. One knee has an actual wire in it, the other has a nylon filament. While the filament is stronger and unlikely to break, if it breaks removal is generally necessary. With the wire, for whatever reason, even broken it doesn't cause a problem (and Skippy's was broken 6 months later).

LOL, no snark intended! :) I really didn't know what was done to "repair" (hence the quotes) when people speak of the non-TPLO type surgery. My dog couldn't have the TPLO and had the TTA because he had a medial collateral "repair" on the same knee several years prior to the ACL tear (that's my boy!). It was done just as the pictures you showed - basically an artificial ligament created from suture material. But I didn't really know what the non-TPLO type surgery entailed at all. Thanks for clearing it up. I'm having one of those days, too.

[eqsiu]

Cairn terriers are on the list too. I was told that any fat purebred was at a higher risk. Too bad I had a mutt that ran so hard I couldn't keep weight on him.

For those that did the TPLO, how long was the recovery? With the extra-capsulars my dog was off leash at 12 weeks post-op. He had 6 weeks bed rest (I even carried his 75 lb butt out to the tall grass to go potty-he only potties in tall grass or brush). Then 6 weeks of controlled exercise and he was fine. On the second he did develop a massive seroma that required bandaging (and the vet that did it is no artist when suturing wounds), but otherwise there were no problems with either surgery.

[mjrtango93]

Do the people have a treadmill by any chance? We had a woman at the barn with a German Shephard that had a similar sounding injury. Didn't completely tear but was a partial in 1 leg. Vet recommended surgery but she just couldn't afford it at the time, so they decided for some hard core strength training to 1) help with strengthening and 2) to keep the dog quite. The vet had her briskly walk/slow jog the dog on her treadmill twice a day for 15 minutes increasing by 5 minutes a week for a month. It kept the dog quiet and relaxed, no sudden stops or turns, and the constant pace could make her tired. Took 2 days for the dog to learn the treadmill and ended up just staying on it on her own with no leash until it was turned off. At the 6 month recheck with the vet he cleared her 100%, said she actually looked better after the strength PT type treatment then the surgical outcome would have been. But it was time consuming! Dog still goes on the treadmill to this day just for the hell of it. She generally turns it on before she gets in the shower in the morning and the dog goes and gets on it on her own. Strange dog but I've heard of others that love the treadmill as well.

[equinelaw]

Thanks for all the replies!

I do not actually know what his official diagnoses is. He could have already had surgery on one leg. He does not put full weight on it all the time, but it does not cause him pain. He licks what hurts and he is licking the good leg--the one that is taking more of his weight. I didn't know any of this until he came to stay for 2 weeks.

I think he has arthritis a bit on both legs. I did suggest adaquine and will probably start that this week. He gets flax, probiotics, green pills for his farts, two large white pills and the very best food. One of the white pills is an anti-inflammatory, but not one I recognize. It might be an herbal.

At the kennel he lost 10 lbs in 1.5 days. Must have gone nuts there!

3-4 months ago he was a canine equivalent of an autistic child. Tantrums and rages, no eye contact, no way to clicker train him as he would not accept food rewards or praise.

6 professional trainers in his many homes said he was "brain damaged" and probably a kennel dog or a puppy mill dog who never had the proper stimulation for brain development.

He was not. He was just a jerk who had learned how to train humans. I fixed the walking on a leash problem in just a few minutes. He was not as scary as a bad horse and a few good No's! in that horse voice got him to walk nicely on a leash and make eye contact and start associating good behavior with rewards.

He went from barking almost 24/7 to only barking 12 hours a day in the last 3 months. His owner walks him over an hour a day. Its just not enough.

With a few 15 minute a day off leash romps he is now normal dog in every way. He has not had one spastic attack in 24 hours!!!!! So the key is exercise, but too much and he is lame and now I worry his ACL will blow.

So how much is the older cheaper surgery? The tie kind? I think she might be willing to spend at least $1,000 to have his legs done if it means he does not drive her crazy 12 hours a day. If he could just run he is a great dog:) She works at home and he barks the whole time she is trying to work.

The tread mill and swimming is doable too. That wont stress his ACL? He is now "normal" enough that he can be trained to do a treadmill and they are not too expensive. He has done an obedience course and we had hoped to move him into agility to get his mind happy, but with the ACL that wont work.

Would putting run downs on him or some kind of vet wrap support allow him a daily romp?

I guess now that his brain fog has cleared he could learn to do normal dog tricks to keep his mind working. There is a lot he can learn that does not require running or twisting.

He seems to be built so that he cannot reach his own butt! His body is too long or his nose it too short, but he will do anything for a dock scritch. Of course he cannot have treats because Boxers have digestion problems, but he can have butt scrtiches all day:)

I guess I'll set up an agility type course with no jumps and no running and see if his brain can tire him out. He is very smart, but so far has used his intelligence for evil:)

Thanks for all the info!! Today I leave the house and see if he will go nuts while I am gone. Fingers crossed!