LOUISE SERIO

[OAK]

I just noticed that she is set down for the month of February. I can't seem to find the reason why. Does someone else know?

[findeight]

IIRC something was in the USEF a month or so ago. The usual.

[MHM]

I believe she was listed as trainer for a horse that did not live in her barn. When the horse tested positive for something, Louise was set down, although the horse was not under her care.

Very unfortunate.

[findeight]

That sounds like what I recall but didn't want to jump in there as was not sure.

She catch rides alot and does alot of short term training (at the show only) and I would bet knew not one thing about this until the test came back.

Nonetheless, she was listed as trainer and therefore responsible party. Rules are rules.

[lauriep]

Why would anyone who understands the rules not list themselves as "coach" rather than trainer if the horse isn't under your care and control?? That makes no sense to me at all!

[OAK]

Lauriep

My thoughts exactly ! Most trainers won't sign for outside horses they ride or coach.

[gotrocks]

Does anyone know which horse?

[Silk]

When I rode with a fairly well known trainer around here, I kept mine at another barn. I purposefully did not put his name down and put myself down as trainer. After all, for all I knew, some idiot could have given the damn horse a cough drop or whathaveyou. The kids were alwasy feeding their beasties some sort of crap.

[CBoylen]

Most trainers won't sign for outside horses they ride or coach.
I've still seen a lot of outside clients sign for their trainer. Trainer either wasn't aware, or noticed when the horse showed up on their office list, but felt uncomfortable asking the client to remove their name.

[lauriep]

I think many don't know that they can sign as COACH and be alright if something happens. But being listed as trainer bears responsibility.

[2ndyrgal]

that at this stage of the game, Ms. Serio knows the rules.

[lauriep]

I wasn't referring to Louise. I was referring to the post above mine.

[vxf111]

It stinks for her, but you know what-- that's the rule and she knows it and has to take her chances or tell the client not to sign her name. I feel bad when someone gets set down for something outside their control, but the rule is the rule and the only way around it is not to sign for a horse you aren't sure of.

[findeight]

If you have ever used a Pro catch rider from outside your barn...you typically meet them at the warm up ring with the horse and a number. They don't go to the office and sign them up. They may not even be the named rider if there was a switch.

Some of these Pro riders will ride 15 in a day for 12 different owners so, no, they don't normally review the forms for signatures.

Probably will start at this point BUT she did exhibit the horse as rider and likely would still have been called on that.

Unfortunate.

[OAK]

I would think that HER name had to be down as trainer!! Because they do not set down the rider unless they are the Owner as well.

[hype]

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember something about Charlie Jayne catchriding a horse and being set down. Maybe I'm making that up, can someone clarify?

[S A McKee]

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember something about Charlie Jayne catchriding a horse and being set down. Maybe I'm making that up, can someone clarify?

IIRC that was a violation under FEI rules. I think they defne the Person Responsible differently. In his case FEI issued the suspension, not USEF but USEF would have honored the suspension for USEF shows.
Perhaps someone familiar with FEI rules can comment.

[Giddy-up]

I've still seen a lot of outside clients sign for their trainer. Trainer either wasn't aware, or noticed when the horse showed up on their office list, but felt uncomfortable asking the client to remove their name.

When you say "sign for their trainer" do you mean forge their signature on the entry blank? :confused:

Charlie Jayne's incident was under FEI rules. FEI holds the rider accountable as well.

[Dune]

Is "set down" now the politically correct term for "banned" or "suspended" or "in a heck of a LOT of trouble"???

[luvs2ridewbs]

Yeah, it happens. Its often more convienant to sign "for" the trainer who is proabably busy doing a million things at the time. However, its not right. People should just be more organized and get their entry blanks/ signatures done ahead of time.

[justdandy]

I ride with a pretty big barn and keep my horses at home. I also send in my own entries. I ALWAYS put my name as "TRAINER" and my trainer's name as "COACH." I only print my trainer's name under "COACH" and sign my own name (does that make sense?). I was instructed to do this a while ago by a couple of the show secretaries.

[OAK]

That's a real good idea. More people should do that !!!!

[Giddy-up]

so....if somebody "signs for" a trainer on their entry blank & then said horse tests positive for whatever--can the trainer then say "hey that's not my signature" & be free of it??

[luvs2ridewbs]

I was under the impression that the coach's signature was not required where as the trainers signature is. (of course this makes sense since they need someone to blame if the horse tests positive) So someone could print the name of the coach and sign their own name but not for the trainer.

[S A McKee]

I was under the impression that the coach's signature was not required where as the trainers signature is. (of course this makes sense since they need someone to blame if the horse tests positive) So someone could print the name of the coach and sign their own name but not for the trainer.

Yes, a 'coach' signature is not required.

A 'trainer' signature is required but can simply be the owner of the horse or a parent of a minor. It doesn't need to be the person who is showing the horse or who is the trainer at the show.

The person who had care and custody of my horses was not a USEF member so no point in getting that signature LOL. I sign as 'trainer' for my horses as the person who shows them is not the person who feeds them.

[CBoylen]

When you say "sign for their trainer" do you mean forge their signature on the entry blank? :confused:

Yes, but to be fair I've never seen a trainer actually do the signing on an entry blank for a client anyway, whether in barn or out of barn. Whomever does the entries usually just signs the trainer's name, typically that is the barn manager.
I just always found it a bit presumptive of an outside client to list the trainer, especially without asking. If they have the physical control of their horses and/or employees then they should legally be responsible for them and their actions. I think a lot of people though that are regular clients of a trainer, but happen to have their own situation as well, feel like the trainer is responsible because they are supposedly working under his or her instructions as far as program. That's the sort of situation where I suppose you can offend someone by requesting to be listed as coach, but I still believe most people are reasonable enough that they wouldn't be upset.

[CBoylen]

I should probably add that my pet peeve about the outside clients listing the trainer doesn't stem from the fact that I think they're all incompetent in their medication program. It mostly arose from the time where I got stuck in an office that wouldn't let me check out the other 20 horses because an outside client on the trainer's list hadn't left a check for her bill.

[findeight]

It mostly arose from the time where I got stuck in an office that wouldn't let me check out the other 20 horses because an outside client on the trainer's list hadn't left a check for her bill.

Bummer. Only thing worse is being in line behind somebody this happens to.:no:

[Giddy-up]

CBoylen--I completely agree that is forward to assume & "sign for" your trainer on your entry blank when you are an outside client (unless it's been discussed). Personally I would think a trainer would want to ka-bosh that immediately cause they have no clue what the horse has been given. If the client doesn't understand, then too bad so sad but not worth the trainer putting their name on the line.

so on this note...is "sign for" the PC term for forgery? Does this work only in horse world or real world too? I'd like to "sign for" some checks at the bank I think. ;)

[Silk]

There is a difference between signing "as" trainer and signing "for" trainer. The former being what I did and the latter being the "forgery". But, as Chanda said, most of the time whoever does the entries (and sometimes its more than one person) usually signs. that being said, I usually met trainer at the shows, made my own entries and signed myself as trainer... moreso to protect the actual trainer whom I respected and liked. After all, if someone slipped my pony a cough drop, I get set sown (big whoopie - I show 6-12 times a year) rather than the man whose livelihood depends on the ability to go to the shows.

[LovesHorses]

So I take it that the actual trainer who did not sign or even know they were being listed as the trainer on an outside person's entry can't use the excuse of "I didn't know they listed me as trainer...I didn't agree to that nor sign my own name??". I know I would be livid if my barn had to sit out some shows because some dingbat got my boss suspended!!

[Addison]

SILK Signing someone else's signature is only considered forgery if it was done with the intent to deceive.

[magnolia73]

It mostly arose from the time where I got stuck in an office that wouldn't let me check out the other 20 horses because an outside client on the trainer's list hadn't left a check for her bill.

So the trainer can also be on the hook for unpaid bills?

Yeesh, why would any trainer put their name down as "trainer" on a horse they themselves did not own?

[findeight]

Yeesh, why would any trainer put their name down as "trainer" on a horse they themselves did not own?

Ummm...because they have 27 of them at the show and only own 3? Or NONE? But are actually the trainer responsible for day to day care and management?

LS is a Pro rider who rides for many owners and a number of other trainers. Whoever went to the office and picked up the number listed her as "trainer" and signed for her. Or, maybe, she was responsible for that horse at that show and did sign as trainer but whoever cared for it at the home barn let this get by. Who knows.


But trainers do not own horses in their care-or they would be listed as owner.

[vxf111]

I am guessing that if a client forges your name as trainer, and you didn't give them permission, you could probably dispute the USEF punishment and win. But you'd likely ROYALLY PISS OFF THE CLIENT which is not worth the trouble in the end. It would be a lot easier to advance this argument if you didn't ride/show the horse in question and truly had no relationship to the horse/client.

I am guessing the folks put her name down as trainer because they WERE working with her, she implicitly gave them permission to use her name, and she would have signed for herself if she had been around to sign the form. Or just sloppiness, by the client. Who knows. But she DID ride the horse for them and it would probably completely alienate the client for her to try to get out of the sanction and pin the whole thing on the client.

Just speculating...

[OAK]

So was it ever decided which horse/owner that caused her to get suspended? Was it one of HER customers or someone that met her at the shows?

[ExJumper]

Why would anyone EVER sign as trainer, then? If you can call yourself "coach" and then never get in trouble for anything...

It's a tough position to be in, especially for all those trainers who have clients who meet them at horse shows. The "trainer" may have no say at all about anything that happens (or happened) with the horse and then suddenly be held responsible...

I guess I'm not really sure what the difference is between "coach" and "trainer" then...

[Giddy-up]

I guess I'm not really sure what the difference is between "coach" and "trainer" then...

You could look at it like the "trainer" is whoever wants to be responsible for the horse should it be tested & be found positive. Usually it's who has the care & custody of the horse as they know what it's been fed or given. The "trainer" line also has to be signed on the entry blank. Most people don't realize they can sign as their own trainers. They think the professional trainer needs to do so.

The "coach" is somebody who just coaches you at the show. They accept no responsibilty for the horse so if should test & be found positive for something, they are not held responsible. This was created for the people who the trainers don't have care & custody of the horse so therefore didn't feel right taking on the full responsibility of an animal they don't control. The "coach" line on the entry blank is optional to be filled in.

I meet my trainers at the shows so therefore I always sign as my own trainer. My paperwork is complete when I mail it & I have care/custody of my horses so I have no issue taking responsibility. I don't bother filling in the "coach" line cause I don't always know who it will be until the last minute.