need clarification: refusals in judging

[Trixie's mom]

ok, I'm 40 years old and have been riding hunters for most of my riding career that began when i was 5.
now, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a refusal say in a hunter hack class drop you to the bottom if everyone else jumps the two jumps the first time???

[MintHillFarm]

I would say yes. It would on my card...I have to say though, I'd have liked to be there to see the whole class ...

[Trixie's mom]

unrated show...walk trot hunter hack...my student had trouble with pony a few times on the flat keeping pony trotting...pony was a trooper, dealt with rider trying to navigate around jumps, traffic etc...cute pony, good mover etc...

had a great trip to the two poles, went in jumping position over the poles, pony navigated well and did what rider asked trotted calmly back into line

three other riders' horses trotted first pole, 'ran out' of the second pole trying to line up with the other horses, one rider's pony 'refused' twice

my rider got last place out of 8 riders...

second scenario...
long stirrup hunter hack...my rider struggled with left lead on the flat phase, riding a tolerant school horse navigated well through out etc.

had a great over fences trip albeit a bit slow but mannerly and gentlemanly.

two riders had refusals,
one didn't even jump second fence

my rider didn't place!! so...again the riders with refusals placed ABOVE the rider that completed the over fence phase without incident

???????????????????

[findeight]

Depends on how bad the rest of them were:eek:.

Hunter Hack is unrated in the Opens, sometimes with no real rules at all and the breed shows that do recognize it may have different standards.

Hunter Hack combines the 2 jumps with with a flat phase so, kind of judges choice of best of the worst-especially if the rider missed a lead the whole time.

One other thing...sad to say but, at unrateds like this, just because somebody is a judge does not mean they meet any standard of competence.

But that is horse showing. As a teaching Pro, the best thing you can do for your riders is tell them that-they paid for an opinion and got one so be a good sport and move on.

Besides, as a Pro, defending a best of the worst situation really does no good. The riders made alot of mistakes. ALL of them. Nobody really deseved to win here, they were all less then any kind of standard...so let it go.

Pet peeve...riders who feel they sucked but others sucked worse therefore they deserve a prize.

[fair judy]

i think of hunter hack as a 50/50 proposition. it isn't just an obedience class.....

my dad used to classify students who thought they should have beaten the competition who was only slightly less horrific than their own ride as aspiring to be "the best of a bad lot." .

its a w/t hunter hack class......... perspective?

[Janet]

ok, I'm 40 years old and have been riding hunters for most of my riding career that began when i was 5.
now, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a refusal say in a hunter hack class drop you to the bottom if everyone else jumps the two jumps the first time???

I wouldn't expect so, any more than any other single error (that isn't "cause for elimination") will automatically "drop you to the bottom".

In a combined flat/jumping class, I would think it would legitimately be up to the judge to decide the realtive influence of each fault -refusal, wrong lead, difficulty getting canter, quality of gaits.

It would also depend on whether the horse or rider was being judged, and whether the judge thought the refusal was rider error or horse error.

[Sparky]

Your student may also have been using some sort of illegal equipment--running martingale, boots, wraps,etc.

[Filly85']

In hunter hack, I judge the jumps to flat at a 70/30. The jumps are way more important than the flat because it is a pattern. That is why you always jump first and then do the flat work.

I don't know if you have ever been to a big open show like a state 4-H show. First, the riders jump the fences (there can be up to 100+ competitors in a class). Then, only the ones that the judge felt jumped the best get called back into the ring to do flat work (there may be several heats for flat work, but it will be a way less number than the original number, and most of them do not even get to do the flat work because their jumps weren't good enough).

I can't think of a scenario where a horse that refused or ran out would place above a horse that didn't but had a couple of breaks on the flat. The riders that refuse automatically go to the bottom of the class.

Alll the open shows do have rules. Some are geared where AQHA rules apply, some 4-H rules (which are close to AQHA), and some USEF. We do have to follow a standard you know.

[Filly85']

Here is a nice article about hunter hack....

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/hunter_jumper/hunter101103/

[findeight]

Sounds like they flatted first from what OP says about the one on the wrong lead and the other that kept dropping into the walk.

Also sounds like one was just walk trot over the two poles after a flat and on the rail.

Perhaps that judged used a 70% for the flat and 30% for the "fences"? That would considerably penalize the wrong lead and, really, if other class was just walk trot and the kid could not keep it trotting?

I can see this baaaad class several different ways. None particularly correct as none of the riders were anywhere near meeting whatever standard.
I would not have used anything unsafe or a refusal/drive by...unless the rest were really nowhere near to meeting the class requirements then I might have to.

[Filly85']

Actually, I have a similar hunter hack story at a local hunter show. Except all of the riders from my barn had excellent trips and were on beautiful moving consistent horses. In fact, most of the other horses in the class rushed over the poles and weren't nearly the movers. Every single one of the horses from my barn had an outstanding round. No breaks, consistent as can be, and beautiful moving. And of course we didn't have any illegal equipment on.

The difference: some people posted over the poles and some went two point. He didn't place us because we were in two point over the poles even though our horses did better than everyone elses. Oh well. I'm not changing my riding style to suit a judge.

It is frustrating when you have an awesome trip and are not rewarded properly.

Like I have said many times on this board, the quality of judging has gone down in the last couple of years. I don't ever remember it being as bad as it is right now (or at least the shows that I have gone to!).

Hunter hack has a standard 70/30 jumping to flat. The judge is not supposed to use a 30/70 standard because it isn't a standard. I have never seen it any other way out of all the shows I have been to because 70/30 is the standard.

[findeight]

Not to argue, really, but have lived on both coasts and in the middle.

Hunter Hack at local shows is all over the place. Depends on where you live. Even when I showed it at the Breed shows (AQHA and Paint) it varied and, most of the time, a spectacular rail horse could be pretty iffy over fences and still win based on the rail work. 'Course that was down in Texas and Oklahoma where they reaallllly liked that Halter look.

The OPs little show is not really a fair comparison here but, wherever she was, could be different at an unrated show in a particular region with no real rules or standards in writing then it is in the mind of somebody else somewhere else looking at the same group..

Hey, I wouldn't have used the run outs but...I was not the judge and did not see it

[Trixie's mom]

the kids weren't complaning at all...they were just happy to be riding...and the parents were happy for their kids...no illegal equipment, all dressed well and appropriately. tack spotless, horses shiny etc.

the one that irritated ME most was when the one rider didn't even jump the second fence and placed above the rider that completed both jumps correctly but just struggles with one lead.

but, another horse show- another opinion. just won't show under that judge again.

[chunky munky]

Until there are specs for the 'Hunter Hack", there will always be questions. Normally there are no specs that describe what percentage the jumps count in regard to the flat work. Until those are deliniated no judge can do a good job, no matter who they are.

[copper1]

Every hunter hack I have been in or seen did the flat work first and every horse jumped the two fences. No markers, no actual pattern. Judge would tell the riders to jump the two fences, turn at the end of the ring and sometimes hand gallop, halt and back up, sometimes just pull up and return to line up. I also thought that it was 30% for the jumping as the class originated from the horse that was used to get the person to the hunt where he might have to jump something to get there so the ability to travel across the ground efficiently (well mannered and good mover) was the most important.
In any case seems to me if the horse misses a jump or refuses, he didn't complete the requirerments of the class and should either be eliminated or dropped to the bottom of the class.
I was in a hunter hack class at a hunter show where the BNT had several horses in the class. He was on one and the others were ridden by grooms. When they had to jump, BNT said the grooms wern't able to do the jumps so the horses didn't but guess who was 2nd and third in a big class with some nice horses!

[dab]

In hunter hack, I judge the jumps to flat at a 70/30. The jumps are way more important than the flat because it is a pattern. That is why you always jump first and then do the flat work. I can't remember seeing the flat work first ever, but I haven't watched many hunter hack classes -- The sidesaddle riders usually have a hunter hack in their division, but it's rare to see it in other divisions near me --

[Janet]

Every hunter hack I have been in or seen did the flat work first and every horse jumped the two fences. No markers, no actual pattern. Judge would tell the riders to jump the two fences, turn at the end of the ring and sometimes hand gallop, halt and back up, sometimes just pull up and return to line up. Same here.

[grandprixjump]

If you've been showing in the H/J world for many, many years and then go to an open show. MOST open shows are judged based on QH or Paint rules, meaning nose plowing a furrow down the side of the ring, loose reins, canter that has a stride of -4', and a horse that places or does the H/J shows doesn't move that way, so they get penalized for it.

[fair judy]

If you've been showing in the H/J world for many, many years and then go to an open show. MOST open shows are judged based on QH or Paint rules, meaning nose plowing a furrow down the side of the ring, loose reins, canter that has a stride of -4', and a horse that places or does the H/J shows doesn't move that way, so they get penalized for it.

priceless!!!!!!!:D

[galwaybay]

Some hunter hacks used to take the top riders and they would be allowed to jump the 2 jumps. one of the other posters here mentioned hunter hacks where the jumped first. I have never seen a hunter hack in a hunter show with that format. In Ladies Side Saddle the hunter hack was judged 50/50.

I would think that in the OP's situation her students were pretty much out of the ribbons based on the flat phase.. it would depend on how many were in the class. Often when a horse blows the hunter hack and still places odds are the judge had it pinned at the top...

[sa11yb]

If your profile didn't say FL on it, I would think you lived in my area. I saw a kid win a walk/trot class who not only flopped around on the horses back but was riding in a Kimberwicke!

[Trixie's mom]

surprisingly it is quite the opposite here...this is an actual hunter show series that is not rated...anyone who was not at Ocala or Wellington was at this show. i thinking that maybe because my ponies/horses are academy horses that might be why we were pinned low. my one pony that pinned well was a sale pony...the riders all did a super job considering their individual levels. my students all demonstrated commendable horsemanship...its just hard explaining to them vague rules and subjective judging. the great thing is that they are still excited about the next show...

thank you to all who responded...

i do want to say that the management at this show was very helpful to me and even offered a refund to one of my students who inadvertantly entered and rode in a class that was not open to ponies...

[Janet]

its just hard explaining to them vague rules and subjective judging. ... If they are going to show in hunters- they will need to get used to "vague rules and subjective judging."!

[MintHillFarm]

In the Quarter Horse world, it appears that they jump first then flat. Interesting, though likely not really part of the original class question...

[MintHillFarm]

From what you said, Trixie's Mom, it doesn't make sense but I wasn't there so I don't want to render an opinion fully. For some reason, it was pinned the way it was. I have run into some odd ball things over the 25 yrs I have had my judge's card.
Here is one: Back numbers...I judged a show years ago where all the numbers the riders wore were in the 200's - i.e. 220, 221, 223 etc., in sequence. The competitors, announcer and I along with the in gate person were all grumbling about the similarities when the numbers were called. This particular group of numbers made everyone sound the same. When the in gate person mistakenly said 221 when it should have been 222, on course, etc. What a pain! It made me more than double check each rider's number before I wrote the number on the card.