How do you pay live-in barn help?

[knightrider]

Hi all....just curious if any of you have an apt, guest cottage or basement (perhaps even a room for rent) that you rent out to someone who helps you in the barn....how do you manage that?

Do you charge a set amount for rent and then give a credit for the work performed? If you pay for feeding and stall cleaning, how much do you pay?

I've seen horse sitters who charge $25/visit or sometimes more, but does that make sense if the person is living there?

This particular place has a gorgeous large apt. over the barn...3-5 horses...for right now in the winter they are in at night. I'm pretty sure they are switched during the months with good weather but I have yet to meet the wife and talk further specifics. While I'm not entirely ready to do someone else's horses full time, I would not mind doing some work in exchange for reduced rent...

Have no idea what is fair pay....3-5 stalls, feeding, mucking, buckets, blankets...no mowing or maintenance other than to take care of the horses/clean the barn.

I'm considering this because the housing prices have decreased so much that I'm really close to being able to afford my own farm down the road. I'd like to rent for a couple reasons...to see if I'm really ready to live further out and because I need to rent my house out since I can't sell it -

So...thoughts on how this could work and what is fair pay?

[sketcher]

My last above barn apartment - I paid full rent and was paid separately for any work I did. I wouldn't do it any other way. From a renters perspective, it would be easy to rent for a reduced amount, end up doing more than you bargained for and have no easy/comfortable way to renegotiate.

[knightrider]

So what is the best way to pay? Per hour? Per horse? and what rate?

[CDE Driver]

Well, this may be a totally different situation, but....

We have live on the property help. He lives in a mobile home on the property with his wife, four children and MIL. We pay utilities, he pays for his own garbage collection and phone.
We pay him $1800/month. He works full time, we have 11 horses.

Don't know if this is any help.

[YankeeLawyer]

I have live in barn help. I provide a small, very well-appointed house and all utilities, garbage collection, and exterminator paid in exchange for care of 4-6 horses (sometimes as few as 2, depending on their training/show/breeding schedules) and keeping the barn tidy, which amounts to 2 to 3 hours per day, and I am pretty flex about vacation time. The house would otherwise rent for around $1600, utilities cost around $300 / month, and depending on the circumstances, I sometimes allow the person to bring a horse / provide a stall to them, so the total package is worth around $2500/month, which I think is fair given that it is for, on average, around 70 hours per month. If we go to a show or inspection, I pay a normal day rate (usually around $100 per day, to help with 1-2 horses) and for things like braiding (whatever the going rate is for a pro braider at the time). My backup helper, to do the same work, charges $25 per day and has to travel from across town.

In the past, I have tried doing an arrangement where I charged reduced rent and any hours worked beyond the value of the discount were credited back, but it was a disaster as the person did little and never paid rent. And as I do not want the utilities disconnected, I prefer to be responsible for those payments as well. The people who come here are generally young, just starting out, and are saving to buy or rent their own place. Because I really like the people who work for me, there are also a number of random perks/gifts.

FWIW, for a recent opening, I had over 100 applications in 2 weeks in response to an ad on an obscure website, and the applications and people I interviewed were very strong, on the whole.

[bird4416]

I have a barn apartment and charge X number of hours per week for the apartment and value the work at X dollars per hour. The employee keeps up with hours worked and gives me a statement weekly. Any overage is either banked for the future or I pay them. If they don't get their hours in they either make them up the following week or pay me. After someone has been here for a while I give vacation time. Just remember that you will need at least one day off per week from the farm or you will burn out.

[DiablosHalo]

My help live in a 3/2 doublewide on the property. I reduced their weekly pay enough to cover what it would rent for (it's actually very nice!) and they work full time (6 days) taking care of the horses.

They pay own electric/tv.
I pay for trash, heat.
I do all the mowing, they weedeat and fix fence, buildings, etc in the summer when horses are out most of the time.
I feed the horses am/pm so I can keep an eye on them and know they are getting correct meds/supplements.

In the winter it's more work, but it's made up for in the spring/summer/fall when everyone is at the track and the ones at the farm are outside most of the time. So for long time employees, it levels out and we don't count hours. If they want an extra afternoon off here/there I give it to them. They also get 2 weeks vacation in the summer.

[knightrider]

Wow YankeeLawyer..I want to come work for you...In doing the math of $2500/mo at 70/hours per month it works out to be $35/hour...unless I can't do math! lol...

I haven't figured out how much help they need yet. They did not advertise this situation, but rather just advertised the apt. for rent. Its a really nice size with everything new inside...

It sounds like the renter/barn help will be a joint decision and I think the wife will have a good deal of say on what is needed/who moves in. Which is fine by me.

I'm not sure I want a 6 day a week job and I'm not sure if their needs/schedule will fit what I'm able to do...ideally, I'd love to be in a feeding only situation and see if they could get barn help to do the stalls...I just don't know what is in the cards right now.

But the idea of keeping the rent and work separate is a good one. Thanks for the replies!

[YankeeLawyer]

Wow YankeeLawyer..I want to come work for you...In doing the math of $2500/mo at 70/hours per month it works out to be $35/hour...unless I can't do math! lol...


It is a really cute house : ). It even has Brazilian mahogany wide plank floors and we are in the midst of finishing out the basement / lower level.

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I will NEVER do an unclear barter arrangement for barn work for housing. It never works well, since they can add stuff and you end up working 20 hours a week for little reimbursement. On thier end, I have heard of the employees not working AND not paying thier rent. It's much more clear to be paid hourly and get credit for your rent. How much is fair really depends on your area. Anywhere from $10-$15 per hour seems fair for the basic barn work. I wouldn't look at what farm sitters get paid, since your commute to the barn would be significantly less than thiers! ;)

[YankeeLawyer]

I will NEVER do an unclear barter arrangement for barn work for housing. It never works well, since they can add stuff and you end up working 20 hours a week for little reimbursement. On thier end, I have heard of the employees not working AND not paying thier rent. It's much more clear to be paid hourly and get credit for your rent. How much is fair really depends on your area. Anywhere from $10-$15 per hour seems fair for the basic barn work. I wouldn't look at what farm sitters get paid, since your commute to the barn would be significantly less than thiers! ;)

Just to be clear, one can do a very clear "barter" arrangement. I have a written lease setting forth the rights and obligations of both parties. It is fairly crystal. I also do not want anyone working for me who lacks flexibility; these are horses, not motorcycles, and just as sometimes a couple of horses will be out for training, sometimes one might be sick and have additional needs. And sometimes the employee may have a family emergency, or interest in taking time off, that would not be accomodated within a rigid vacation allotment (if any); so flexibility works both ways.

My point about the farm sitter is that mine charges less than my live-in help costs me. Anyway, as I said, I recently was inundated with very good applications for this position, and we have only had one opening in 4 years, so apparently the people at my farm like it there.

[YankeeLawyer]

I will NEVER do an unclear barter arrangement for barn work for housing. It never works well, since they can add stuff and you end up working 20 hours a week for little reimbursement. On thier end, I have heard of the employees not working AND not paying thier rent. It's much more clear to be paid hourly and get credit for your rent. How much is fair really depends on your area. Anywhere from $10-$15 per hour seems fair for the basic barn work. I wouldn't look at what farm sitters get paid, since your commute to the barn would be significantly less than thiers! ;)

I have no idea what rents are in your area, but taking your figures, 20 hours a week (which you suggest would be the worst case) x $10 to $15 an hour works out to between $200 and $300 a week, or roughly $800 to $1200 a month. Exactly how much more should a person working 20 hours a week in exchange for free housing, all utilities paid, and a stall receive? I really think one would be very hard pressed to cover the costs of housing, utilities, and board for a horse at anywhere near $800 to $1200, let alone for less than that. And if someone is only working 20 hours or less a week, presumably they can take on another job elsewhere, and ultimately do pretty well, on the whole.

[sketcher]

I have no idea what rents are in your area, but taking your figures, 20 hours a week (which you suggest would be the worst case) x $10 to $15 an hour works out to between $200 and $300 a week, or roughly $800 to $1200 a month. Exactly how much more should a person working 20 hours a week in exchange for free housing, all utilities paid, and a stall receive? I really think one would be very hard pressed to cover the costs of housing, utilities, and board for a horse at anywhere near $800 to $1200, let alone for less than that. And if someone is only working 20 hours or less a week, presumably they can take on another job elsewhere, and ultimately do pretty well, on the whole.

I don't think she was referring directly to your arrangement which sounds quite nice and extremely reasonable. The fact is that it is easy for both sides to lose in a loosy-goosy barter arrangement. The 20 hours a week also stretches to being there once in a while for the vet or farrier or workman or whomever, unloading hay or shavings, taking care of things while the property owners vacation ect... or the renter slacks....

I'd assume by your name you are an attorney? How often do you see your average person put things in writing, in a concise and logical manner that covers both sides - which probably means that the typical arangement regarding the work would be done on a verbal basis maybe with a written rental agreement that does not address specifically the working arrangement..

[knightrider]

Hi there...thanks for the responses....

Many years ago, I used to live on a farm and took care of the horses...I got free rent and free board for 2 horses...did the am feedings and stalls M-F and some evening feedings. Was a backup when the other help couldn't be there and was there in the event of emergency's/hay deliveries etc...

We had a lot of problems with people doing the work and there was more and more to do...I also had another job because originally I was not supposed to work nights/weekends but did anyway. There was no written agreement and my roommate at the time caused a lot of issues with either not doing things or stirring up trouble. One of the biggest complaints at the time was that I fed the horses during the week between 530-6am and turned out...the stalls at that time were not too trashed from the night...but on the weekends when my roommate worked, they didn't do the horses till 8 or sometimes close to 9 am...well....what do you think the condition of the stalls were? The horses trashed them because they were waiting to go out. Everyone knew that I had to feed early during the week, but the roommates hated saturday cleaning and felt the stalls were messy because I wasn't doing my end when in fact I was...

Getting things in writing is a great idea but still doesn't always work if there are multiple people doing the barn on different schedules.

That is part of my concern with this place...how much work do they want, what is the pay, and what is the expectation. I do have another job and don't want a full time barn job, but I am willing to help out and probably cover a good portion....

These folks advertised the apt for rent ...offered to bring a horse for extra money...their ad was not looking for barn help. It wasn't till I actually talked to the guy did he mention that he would like to have someone capable of handling the horses.

So...we still have a lot to figure out. I'm very interested but need to know what their needs are and what is a common and fair way of handling the work so they are not disappointed and I am not overworked...and am capable of keeping the barn the way it should be and the way they want it to be...

In addition, the financial aspect and the benefits need to be in balance with the work. Thats what I'm trying to figure out...I very much want to position myself for my long term plans that I have and there are some excellent benefits in working my butt off for a period of time to get there....right now I need to determine how long I'm willing to bust ass for my long term goal...I'm in no way lazy, but everything needs to make sense for my long term future....

[Plumcreek]

I rented a MIL apartment to a police officer for slightly under the market ($600), and boarded one retired horse at cost ($200 for stall and corral + turnout). I did all the 5 horses 5-6 days a week, and they did all 5 horses 1-2 days a week. This allowed that person to do their demanding job, and me (I work in a home office) to have 1-2 days a week free from horse care. This worked out really well since we both were flexible and responsible people. Vacation time for both of us was traded off with more care days/ reduced board.

I lost this person when someone else offered free rent and board for 3 horses in return for care of 5 broodmares. Two years later that horse care count was up to 17 horses (!!), so they left, but had saved enough to buy a place.

[sopha]

If housing is part of the job, it doesn't count as taxable income. If the employer pays the employee and then collects rent, the employee pays tax on the entire salary. If they work for a lesser amount and the housing is part of the job, the employee does not pay taxes on the "rent" amount.

[Personal Champ]

Yankee, can I come work for you??

I am provided with a house, which is nice, but in need of much work, which hubby and I have done. BO pays utilities, except phone, cable, internet. I am allotted 2 stalls, and my health insurance is paid. I am also paid $200 a week.

In exchange for taking care of 40 horses, 7 days a week, no vacation time (other than having a friend or boarder cover turning in so that I can go somewhere), no sick days, no holidays.

[YankeeLawyer]

Yankee, can I come work for you??

I am provided with a house, which is nice, but in need of much work, which hubby and I have done. BO pays utilities, except phone, cable, internet. I am allotted 2 stalls, and my health insurance is paid. I am also paid $200 a week.

In exchange for taking care of 40 horses, 7 days a week, no vacation time (other than having a friend or boarder cover turning in so that I can go somewhere), no sick days, no holidays.

Holy cow - 40 HORSES?!?! No vacay? I am a believer in hard work but I also believe down time is equally important otherwise people (understandably) become unhappy and burned out.

[YankeeLawyer]

Tveley, try www.yardandgroom.com . I have found amazing people by placing an ad there.

[Renae]

My last above barn apartment - I paid full rent and was paid separately for any work I did. I wouldn't do it any other way. From a renters perspective, it would be easy to rent for a reduced amount, end up doing more than you bargained for and have no easy/comfortable way to renegotiate.

I agree. Assuming the job is just a part time job hours wise, have the renter pay the full rent at a market value for the area. Make sure you are renting out a space that is LEGAL to rent out and that you are giving your renter a certificate of rent paid at the end of the year so they can do their taxes.

Then pay the local hourly rate for base level jobs (McDonald's, grocery store) for the work done, with correct taxes and SS taken out. feeding, turn out and cleaning a few stalls is a base level job that does not take high skill and training.

If the job was large enough that it is full time and the employee is being paid salary then it can be easier to include the housing as part of the benefits package of the position. But for a part-time paid hourly employee handle the rent and the pay check as two seperate items.

[YankeeLawyer]

I agree. Assuming the job is just a part time job hours wise, have the renter pay the full rent at a market value for the area. Make sure you are renting out a space that is LEGAL to rent out and that you are giving your renter a certificate of rent paid at the end of the year so they can do their taxes.

Then pay the local hourly rate for base level jobs (McDonald's, grocery store) for the work done, with correct taxes and SS taken out. feeding, turn out and cleaning a few stalls is a base level job that does not take high skill and training.

If the job was large enough that it is full time and the employee is being paid salary then it can be easier to include the housing as part of the benefits package of the position. But for a part-time paid hourly employee handle the rent and the pay check as two seperate items.

If I am understanding this correctly, the P/T person would get a really bad deal in many cases. The market rent for my cottage is around $1600 /month, not including utilities, cable, exterminator, etc. If only paid, say $10 an hour, for the 80 or so hours a month the PT person works, that person would only make back $800 of their $1600 rent, and still have to pay utilities, etc. And there are tax advantages for the farm tenant when housing is part of the compensation.

[Renae]

If I am understanding this correctly, the P/T person would get a really bad deal in many cases. The market rent for my cottage is around $1600 /month, not including utilities, cable, exterminator, etc. If only paid, say $10 an hour, for the 80 or so hours a month the PT person works, that person would only make back $800 of their $1600 rent, and still have to pay utilities, etc. And there are tax advantages for the farm tenant when housing is part of the compensation.

Then as the owner it would probably make more sense for you to rent the cottage at market value and pay someone who lives locally at the local going rate, would it not? Of course by having your "part time" employees live on site you can ask for them to do things any time of the day any day of the week, quite convenient for you, especially if they are not getting paid by the hour.

In my experience, in most situations where a part time employee is given a straight barter for rent situation their duties become much more than part time.

[YankeeLawyer]

Then as the owner it would probably make more sense for you to rent the cottage at market value and pay someone who lives locally at the local going rate, would it not? Of course by having your "part time" employees live on site you can ask for them to do things any time of the day any day of the week, quite convenient for you, especially if they are not getting paid by the hour.

In my experience, in most situations where a part time employee is given a straight barter for rent situation their duties become much more than part time.

No, it would not make more sense to do that as I do not want tenants who are not involved in the farm on my property. The position requires, on average, a maximum of 2 to 3 hours per day and I am fairly liberal about time off for vacations and showing. I have two other P/T people who rotate to cover those periods, and I do A LOT of work myself. I treat the people who work with me extremely well as I value them a great deal and want them to be happy at my farm. I don't know how other people run their farms but at mine the horses have a program; there is a schedule, and barring the odd emergency vet call or something (most of which I handle myself), there is no reason to ask people to "do things any time of the day any day of the week." As I mentioned before, the package also includes board for a horse. And I do pay for extras, such as help at shows, braiding, etc. There are a number of other significant perks.

[Renae]

No, it would not make more sense to do that as I do not want tenants who are not involved in the farm on my property. The position requires, on average, a maximum of 2 to 3 hours per day and I am fairly liberal about time off for vacations and showing. I have two other P/T people who rotate to cover those periods, and I do A LOT of work myself. I treat the people who work with me extremely well as I value them a great deal and want them to be happy at my farm. I don't know how other people run their farms but at mine the horses have a program; there is a schedule, and barring the odd emergency vet call or something (most of which I handle myself), there is no reason to ask people to "do things any time of the day any day of the week." As I mentioned before, the package also includes board for a horse. And I do pay for extras, such as help at shows, braiding, etc. There are a number of other significant perks.

Then understand that your position and how you treat your employees/tenants, it not what is standard, unfortunatly. Blue collar labor is highly abused in the horse business. Heck, I've even been hired as a trainer and had my employer try to dump jobs on me like mowing and fertilizing the lawn and cleaning the pool. Due to this I approach every situation with an eye for trying to access things like does the barn owner really understand how many labor hours it takes to run their farm and maintain their property? And so forth. A lot of younger people especially are very gullible because they just want any kind of job that involves horses, and if it comes with housing and is only supposed to be a part time job so that they can go to school or work a second job at the same time that sounds great, doesn't it? Until the would be part timer is so overloaded with work that they lose thier other job or do poorly at school or the barn owner is unhappy with what is not getting done because the tenant places their other job or school higher on the priority list. Just telling you, YankeeLawyer, that is the type of situation that is unfortunatly normal when it is a barter type situation.

[YankeeLawyer]

Then understand that your position and how you treat your employees/tenants, it not what is standard, unfortunatly. Blue collar labor is highly abused in the horse business. Heck, I've even been hired as a trainer and had my employer try to dump jobs on me like mowing and fertilizing the lawn and cleaning the pool. Due to this I approach every situation with an eye for trying to access things like does the barn owner really understand how many labor hours it takes to run their farm and maintain their property? And so forth. A lot of younger people especially are very gullible because they just want any kind of job that involves horses, and if it comes with housing and is only supposed to be a part time job so that they can go to school or work a second job at the same time that sounds great, doesn't it? Until the would be part timer is so overloaded with work that they lose thier other job or do poorly at school or the barn owner is unhappy with what is not getting done because the tenant places their other job or school higher on the priority list. Just telling you, YankeeLawyer, that is the type of situation that is unfortunatly normal when it is a barter type situation.

We are perhaps a bit unique in how we do things but my background is a bit different than most farm owners' and I was raised to treat people as I would want to be treated myself (and since I have high expectations in that regard, I treat people accordingly). It probably also helps that I did run my farm the first year by myself without any staff while having a very demanding job in the city, so I do have a good sense of all the tasks that need to be done. I actually now have several different people doing the tasks I used to do unassisted. And the barn manager manages the horses and barn only; we have different people to do the various other tasks that are in their specialty areas. The way I describe the position is "horse nanny;" it really is exactly that. So the nanny is not also my personal chef and chauffeur ; ). My assistant does have another job, but she works for a close friend of mine on her farm and we coordinate so that things happen without overburdening or inconveniencing others.

[Watermark Farm]

Get very clear about what your responsibilities would be, and get it in writing.

A friend took a position in a beautiful private barn with a gorgeous apartment. It went well for a long time, but suddenly the owner added a heavy responsibility (that my friend could never spend the night away from the property and had to wake up at 3am every night to do a barn check!) that was not part of the job to start with. My friend had to resign and move.

We have an old friend and horseman who lives here in an RV. In exchange, he gives us 2 weeks of ranch sitting each year and maintains our tractor and troubleshoots/fixes farm equipment for us. It's a very clear arrangement and works well because everyone knows what to expect, and we take care of each other.

In my next life, I will be working for Yankee Lawyer!!

[tveley]

Thanks YankeeLawyer, I took your advice about YardandGroom. It is a great site and I have already received 10 replies to my job listing, several sound very promising.

I also know what is like to run the farm by myself (while also running a very demanding non-horse related business), so I would not ask an employee to do anything I have not done many times myself. I treat my employees like you do (as I would want to be treated), so I hope I will find the perfect person soon who I will have working with me and my horses for a very long time.

[lewin]

Whatever arrangement get it all in writing including how much work will realistically be expected, days off, what if emergencies come up, etc. There is one farm on Yard and Groom where the owner can't keep anyone because the expectations sound OK (only 3 hours of work per day), but they are impossible to actually survive on. (Namely the feeding schedule means that the staff can never leave the farm during daylight for more than 4 hours at a time, leaving no time to earn enough to pay for what is not included; car, insurance, etc.)

[YankeeLawyer]

Whatever arrangement get it all in writing including how much work will realistically be expected, days off, what if emergencies come up, etc. There is one farm on Yard and Groom where the owner can't keep anyone because the expectations sound OK (only 3 hours of work per day), but they are impossible to actually survive on. (Namely the feeding schedule means that the staff can never leave the farm during daylight for more than 4 hours at a time, leaving no time to earn enough to pay for what is not included; car, insurance, etc.)

That is stinky. Our position presumes the live-in person has a 9-5 job elsewhere, whether they do or not is their business.

[Trixie]

YL, I want to come work for you! :)

Then as the owner it would probably make more sense for you to rent the cottage at market value and pay someone who lives locally at the local going rate, would it not?

Consider also that you're really not likely to find long term, reliable help who WANTS to come do your barn chores for "base level" pay for three hours a day. Even if you pay $10 an hour, that's only $30 a day.

Most farms do not have a plethora of locals that think $30 a day (then subtract taxes!) is worth the gas money to drive out to a farm for. You need to make it worth their time to come out.

You may luck into someone. But really, good quality help like that is really hard to find.

[TatteredDaydreamer]

Yankee...I want to work for you....you have my dream situation. I've very attentive and a hard worker, Trixie will attest to that!;) Seriously though, I'm looking to possibly move to VA and that'd be perfect!;) If you ever need anyone......

[MissintheSouth]

Yankee, can I come work for you??

I am provided with a house, which is nice, but in need of much work, which hubby and I have done. BO pays utilities, except phone, cable, internet. I am allotted 2 stalls, and my health insurance is paid. I am also paid $200 a week.

In exchange for taking care of 40 horses, 7 days a week, no vacation time (other than having a friend or boarder cover turning in so that I can go somewhere), no sick days, no holidays.

Wow - that seems crazy!

My DH and I live on the farm where I work - I manage the barn, 30 horses, 40-50 hours/week. House is part of my salary, including all utilities and garbage pick up, etc. I only pay for internet and cable.

I get 1 week vacay, sick days, and set my own schedule so I can show if I want. I get 1 stall's board included, along with lessons and some other showing perks.

Even with all that, I still get a paycheck that's more than double what you are being paid!

I love my job and never feel like I am getting the short end of the deal. The money isn't huge but it's enough and I get a lot of comps.