Reaction to wormer - Libbey's new rotation UPDATE: Cushings Disease

[Auventera Two]

Radiographs linked:

http://www.hphoofcare.com/Libbey%20Rads%20Feb%202%2009000.jpg
http://www.hphoofcare.com/Libbey%20Rads%20Feb%202%2009001.jpg


After a dose of Ivermectin, Libbey ended up at the equine hospital yesterday on an emergency basis. Radiographs show that she has rotated again. Emergency pain abatement, blood pulled for tests, radiographs, and 3 hours later we were on our way home.

She was doing so well. She was sound and happy, weight was finally good, the laminar wedge was all but gone, I finally felt like we were really getting somewhere. Then this. I had a feeling to not worm her, but did it anyway based on the fact she has not reacted before to Ivermectin.

[Daydream Believer]

Holy moly A2...that is some rotation. I'm sorry to hear of her problem. Do the vet's believe it is an allergic reaction or something else? Jingles for Libby!

Totally unrelated probably but I had an EPM horse that would relapse if you gave him Ivermectin. He has survived 4 years fat and sassy without it just fine once we figured out what the trigger was.

[Appassionato]

Oh A2, I am so sorry! I hope she pulls out of this OK! Got anything unfder her heels/frogs? Or is that not a good idea at this point? Sending lots of jingles!

DB brings up a point about a reaction, could the worm die-off have caused this? Just trying to help think of stuff that might have set her off since you said she's not had a problem before with ivermectin.

[BornToRide]

I am so sorry. I hope she will recover soon. Best wishes!!

[Auventera Two]

When I first got her, I learned about the danger of deworming and vaccinating so opted to give her only a tetanus shot, which made her very sore. So I won't be chancing any more vaccines.

After quite a few months of weighing pros and cons, I decided to do a 1/2 dose of Ivermectin. She was fine, so a couple weeks later I gave the other 1/2 dose. Over the next year she then had another full Ivermectin dose, a full Equimaxx dose, and a full TapeCare Plus dose. All without consequence. So what was different this time? I don't know. Especially when she "seemed" to be at her healthiest and soundest yet. I just don't get it.

She's wearing Boa boots with 12mm pads. I have the new Soft Density 12mm pads on order, but they're backordered. The vet was very happy with the fit and functionality of the boots and thought they were a good therapy option. She's to be out 12 hrs. a day in boots, and in 12 hrs. a day on deep bedding.

That thick calloused sole is the only thing saving her at this point.

They took blood to test ACTH, Insulin, Glucose, and Thyroid.

She is not in any way depressed though, which is good. She is an awfully stoic little pony. She was playing games over the wall with Sweets this morning, and swinging her head around in that hyper thing horses do when they have too much energy. She was bumping the stall door with her nose also begging to go outside. She's in no way ready to give up at least.

[Auventera Two]

Holy moly A2...that is some rotation. I'm sorry to hear of her problem. Do the vet's believe it is an allergic reaction or something else?

She's not really sure. It was the only thing in her daily routine that had changed.

[grayarabpony]

Was this mare ever tested for Cushings? I know you had questions about that at some point, but can't remember the outcome.

Never mind -- I see she just had a ACTH pulled.

[Auventera Two]

No, because every vet that had seen her said there was no need to test. She never had a problem shedding, no long curly hair. I had REALLY stressed that I was suspect of it because of her age, and symptoms. They assured me it was not a concern. :confused: She has had thyroid tested before and it was normal.

But the vet who saw her yesterday (who is brand new to our area) said that she should be tested for Cushings, even if she shows no symptoms because some of them don't show symptoms. FINALLY someone who will actually listen to my concerns.

[Appassionato]

When I first got her, I learned about the danger of deworming and vaccinating so opted to give her only a tetanus shot, which made her very sore. So I won't be chancing any more vaccines.

After quite a few months of weighing pros and cons, I decided to do a 1/2 dose of Ivermectin. She was fine, so a couple weeks later I gave the other 1/2 dose. Over the next year she then had another full Ivermectin dose, a full Equimaxx dose, and a full TapeCare Plus dose. All without consequence. So what was different this time? I don't know. Especially when she "seemed" to be at her healthiest and soundest yet. I just don't get it.

She's wearing Boa boots with 12mm pads. I have the new Soft Density 12mm pads on order, but they're backordered. The vet was very happy with the fit and functionality of the boots and thought they were a good therapy option. She's to be out 12 hrs. a day in boots, and in 12 hrs. a day on deep bedding.

That thick calloused sole is the only thing saving her at this point.

They took blood to test ACTH, Insulin, Glucose, and Thyroid.

She is not in any way depressed though, which is good. She is an awfully stoic little pony. She was playing games over the wall with Sweets this morning, and swinging her head around in that hyper thing horses do when they have too much energy. She was bumping the stall door with her nose also begging to go outside. She's in no way ready to give up at least.

I can see how the vaccine may have set her off, the vaccine *may* have set off an inflammatory response which might be fine for most horses, but not for one with metabolic issues or sensitive to inflammation due to existing laminar damage from former founder(s). Hence I wondered if a substantial enough worm die off *may* have set off an inflammatory response, which in turn hurt her feets again. I don't know, I'm guessing here. Just hoping to help you find some answers!

I'm glad to hear she's in great spirits!

[Daydream Believer]

If I'm not mistaken also, thyroid testing can be highly inaccurate in horses so don't take that one test as indicative that she does not have an issue there. I'm glad you finally found a vet who will listen to you and work with you.

[sublimequine]

I'm so sorry. Jingles for your girl. :(

If you need a sympathetic ear, PM me!

[Auventera Two]

Thank you everyone, this is so hard. Appassionato - you've been through this too. It sucks doesn't it? :(

[gabz]

Oh Golly. So sorry for Libby's condition.

Jingles that she gets better quickly.

Do you need to do any kind of resection? to remove pressure in her feet?

[buck22]

But the vet who saw her yesterday (who is brand new to our area) said that she should be tested for Cushings, even if she shows no symptoms because some of them don't show symptoms. FINALLY someone who will actually listen to my concerns.
its a darn shame that it took a crisis to get help that is more open minded and willing :no: everyone is stuck on teh curly coat not shedding thing, but when I chat with owners of cushings horses, they talk about the early signs they saw years in advance and wished they had realized then :no: ....best wishes for you and your mare.

[LarkspurCO]

Ouch! :no:

May I ask how much time passed between administering the dewormer and onset of symptoms?

Also, what brand dewormer was it?

[Auventera Two]

We'll see what the test shows. It might come back negative.

But I'll throw out a plug for the Boa boots. They are AWESOME for this situation. As soon as I found her, I got the boots and pads on and she was immediately much more comfortable. They have a softly padded collar and the dial adjustment system is awesome. There's nothing to buckle or snap or clamp. Just twist the dial and the boot tightens up. Release the dial and the lace opens up, tongue folds down, and the foot slips right out. They require NO muscle power, or banging to get them on or anything. I'd say they're an excellent therapy boot. They have made life MUCH easier for me, and so much better for Little Libbey Lou.

[Auventera Two]

Ouch! :no:

May I ask how much time passed between administering the dewormer and onset of symptoms?

Also, what brand dewormer was it?

Symptoms started after 3 1/2 hours. I went out to do bedtime check and she looked "ouchie" in her stall. She turned from the hay to the water and I thought maybe she did it more tentatively than normal............but I am a major worry wart over her anyway, so I watched her for 15 minutes or so and couldn't really see that ouch factor again so I thought I imagined it. Next morning, she was in the founder stance, full blown acute and unable to weight her fronts.

This is the exact wormer:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/wcsstore/ConsumerDirectStorefrontAssetStore/images/products/600/5003427.jpg

[Daydream Believer]

We'll see what the test shows. It might come back negative.

But I'll throw out a plug for the Boa boots. They are AWESOME for this situation. As soon as I found her, I got the boots and pads on and she was immediately much more comfortable. They have a softly padded collar and the dial adjustment system is awesome. There's nothing to buckle or snap or clamp. Just twist the dial and the boot tightens up. Release the dial and the lace opens up, tongue folds down, and the foot slips right out. They require NO muscle power, or banging to get them on or anything. I'd say they're an excellent therapy boot. They have made life MUCH easier for me, and so much better for Little Libbey Lou.

Boas are great boots for founders. I have used Old Macs also with a lot of success and the nice thick comfort pads inside. They stay on amazingly well too.

[LMH]

WOW. Those are some radiographs.

You poor dear and your poor darling.

Is there ANYTHING else it could have been? Something in her hay? A weed? Anything?

That just freaks me out.

Did you have rads from before? Did all of this happen that fast?

Sorry for so may questions-that is just mind blowing.

[EqTrainer]

3 1/2 hours?

Pollitt documents "the real-life "incubation" period of 24 to 56 hours between the triggering event and the first signs of laminitic lameness" in his studies. I think the shortest he notes is in toxicity from black walnut shavings is 8 - 12 hours. It has always been helpful to me to look back over the three to four days prior to an incident to figure out why it happened. Of course, we often never do figure it out. I am certainly not saying it could not have been the dewormer.. but that's really quick for something that would have barely made it into her digestive system.

No matter what the reason, or when it happened, I hope she feels better soon.

[Pippigirl]

Thank you everyone, this is so hard. Appassionato - you've been through this too. It sucks doesn't it? :(

Hang in there, jingles for Libby! She's sounds like a tough mare!

[goeslikestink]

3 1/2 hours?

Pollitt documents "the real-life "incubation" period of 24 to 56 hours between the triggering event and the first signs of laminitic lameness" in his studies. I think the shortest he notes is in toxicity from black walnut shavings is 8 - 12 hours. It has always been helpful to me to look back over the three to four days prior to an incident to figure out why it happened. Of course, we often never do figure it out. I am certainly not saying it could not have been the dewormer.. but that's really quick for something that would have barely made it into her digestive system.

No matter what the reason, or when it happened, I hope she feels better soon.

tend to agree i doubt very much its the wormer


down to how one manages there horses diet knowing full well the horse in question has laminitus/ flounder

[CoolMeadows]

tend to agree i doubt very much its the wormer


down to how one manages there horses diet knowing full well the horse in question has laminitus/ flounder

GLS - did you have to? Put down the 1950s Pony Club manual already. Sounds like the full blown symptoms weren't till the next morning so... 15 hours? 18 hours? 24 hours? We don't know how the horse is managed but odds are it's carefully.

Anyway, best of luck with Libbeys recovery.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Scary radiographs! :eek:

Hope you and the vet get it under control and her tough nature pulls her through.

Jingles for Libby!

[ChocoMare]

Oh, A2! I'm so sorry to read this about sweet Libbey pony :cry: Many jingles.

No matter what caused it or didn't, it is what it is and I know she's in good hands with you.

Ditto about the "false/thick" sole....it's there for a reason and the body will ditch it when its ready. If I had listened to an adviser and pared away Tank's false sole, she'd have been a goner. I left it there to protect until her body said "I'm done with it" and POP - out it came.

[cloudyandcallie]

The vettec pour in pads, the semi-soft ones, can help prevent sinking. Jeffersequine sells them, and you need the applicator "gun" (farriers already have them)

[Auventera Two]

Eq - Well, I went back for the bedtime check 3 1/2 hours after administering it and I "thought" she looked a bit ouchie when she turned in her stall, but like I said, I could have been imagining it. I really over-think things with her. It would have been 13 hours later that I found her in full blown acute laminitis. What I thought I saw at 3 1/2 hours might have been nothing.

Nothing changed at all in her diet, environment, or schedule, except for getting the dewormer. Same hay from the same load, everything was the same. Of course there might have been some weed in the hay, there's no way to know that. But it just seemed way too coincidental for her to just crash the next morning after being dewormed.

GLS - If you think you can manage this mare better, you hop your sweet white butt on a plane and get over here and do it. You have no clue what I do to make sure everything is safe for Libbey. Tested hay, soaking it, grazing muzzle, dry lot, vet check ups, supplements to support an IR horse, no grain, special ordering beet pulp without molasses, trimmed every 4 weeks, trying various hoof boots and shoeing to get it right. I walk and exercise her every chance available to keep her moving. I spend an extra 20 minutes every morning walking hay WAAAAY out into the fields so the 3 of them have to really WALK in between piles so she keeps exercising. Of sure it'd be easy and lazy to dump the bale at the back door of the barn where they'd stand in one place all day and gorge their gutts.

You don't know the money and time we have spent to revamp our farm so its safe for her, to get the vet care she needs, and so forth. It was a major responsibility to take on a rescue that was so chronically foundered already we didn't know if she'd even make it.

How many foundered horses have you owned GLS? This is my first and I found out right quick that you can do everything right and things still go to hell. The vet was waiting for the xray machine to show up with another vet, so we had a full hour to talk. Yeah, I've never had that much time with a vet - EVER! I told her everything, every little aspect of everything I do with Libbey, and she said there's nothing she could suggest to do differently. I asked her about any special shoeing she would recommend and she said no - just continue with the Boa boots and pads for now. I asked about any other feeding options, she said the low NSC hay and some Wellsolve to administer bute is the best she can get. The beet pulp is fine, as long as its small amounts and no-molasses. She said the trim was fine, not vaccinating her is fine, etc....

So what else would you have me change GLS? Do tell. Believe me, I'd do anything to make things easier and safer for Libbey. But right now I don't know what that would be. So since you know, lay it on me. I'm all ears (eyes??) lol.

I've been talking with another trimmer regarding some things to change in her trim, and I'm very hopeful this will be a positive step. The vet thought the trim was fine, but I'm going to try some tweaks that may yield better comfort for her.

Anyway - she's doing ok, the Boa boots are a god-send. :) Thank you for the jingles, everyone. It's just a tough time :(

[grayarabpony]

Put down the 1950s Pony Club manual already. Sounds like the full blown symptoms weren't till the next morning so... 15 hours? 18 hours? 24 hours? We don't know how the horse is managed but odds are it's carefully.

Anyway, best of luck with Libbeys recovery.

Amen to that.

[EqTrainer]

A2, I hope she is feeling better this AM. I hope you know I was not "getting after you" just wanted to point that out in case there was something else that could have been causal. Hang in there..

[JB]

GLS - did you have to? Put down the 1950s Pony Club manual already. Sounds like the full blown symptoms weren't till the next morning so... 15 hours? 18 hours? 24 hours? We don't know how the horse is managed but odds are it's carefully.

Anyway, best of luck with Libbeys recovery.

Another amen.

gls, sometimes you are SO by the book, and if it doesn't happen to you or anyone you know, that you fail to understand that sometimes crap happens. Yes, there is ALWAYS a cause of laminitis, but if you think every single instance can ALWAYS have that cause determined, then you need to think again.

[Auventera Two]

No worries Eq, I've thought about that too - HOW could it be this wormer?? She's had Ivermectin before and had no trouble. The vet told me she has never heard of even one case of a foundered or metabolic horse reacting badly to wormer. Nothing at all changed, not even one teeny little detail in any of her care. The hay I feed is high quality and I've never found any weeds in it. I separate Libbey's flakes and lay them out flat, as it keeps her from pawing at it and fluffing it into the bedding. I didn't see or smell anything out of the ordinary. The other metabolic horse ate from that same bale and was ok. (of course that doesn't necessarily mean anything though.)

This morning she did not eat her pellets with the bute in it, and that's a first. :( She went after her hay though. So I just talked to the vet who is going to get a couple months of Cimedidine ready for us.

[katarine]

You can't say you are in this for the horses then kick someone who's in a bad spot with their horse. Someone who is trying hard.

Bad form GLS. Offer solutions instead of the toe of your boot.

[Auventera Two]

Thank you JB and Katarine. Its very upsetting because she was doing so great, feet were looking great finally and the weight was good, her gaits really improved over the last few months, I thought she had finally turned that corner and we were on the smooth road. I was making plans for the two little girls to do some short easy trail rides with her this summer. I was really looking forward to the next years being happy. I thought I'd finally done enough homework to really have the care nailed, then this big blowup. I keep staring at those films and it rips my heart up in a bunch of little pieces.

[BornToRide]

Don't be so hard on yourself. You had every reason to believe that she would be OK, considering past experiences.

[ddashaq]

AT, so sorry about your mare. I hope that she feels better soon. I commend you for the tremendous amount of time and effort you have put into giving this horse the best life possible.

[sublimequine]

You can't say you are in this for the horses then kick someone who's in a bad spot with their horse. Someone who is trying hard.

Bad form GLS. Offer solutions instead of the toe of your boot.

Agreed. Sheesh, try some sympathy GLS. :(

A2, how's the girly doing this morning? At least she's still got some appetite for hay. It really sucks when you do EVERYTHING by the book, and are totally up to date on the latest research, do EVERYTHING right, and still this stuff happens. Man, horses. :no:

[Coreene]

Back when Willem foundered I remember some very nasty posts from a BBer, essentially blaming me for all of it. Because, you know, you can do everything in the world to make it better, follow all the most recent studies, etc., but at that time it didn't count because this poster thought it was OK to just make it all my fault. I won't name names, but they've posted on this thread.

It is a very sad rollercoaster, as every one of us who have been in this position already know. You can do everything so exactly by the book, but whether or not in the end it works is still a crapshoot. Much to be said for the benefit of Ace, much to be said for Pergolide giving her a boost if she hasn't been on it before, much to be said for prayers. But do not blame yourself, you are doing your very best and many others would have done the same as you. Strength to you in these coming days! Hang in there.

[Auventera Two]

Thank you everyone very much. Thank you Correen, awww Willem :sadsmile: I am very sorry for your loss. :( I know most on the board loved him. :)

[1horse13]

So sad Hope she gets well soon
laminitis STINKS I know much too well

[LMH]

How are things looking this afternoon?

I have been right next to you AT! You get everything perfect then get slammed again.

It just sucks I KNOW!

Hang in there-keep doing your best. :)

[Larbear]

After quite a few months of weighing pros and cons, I decided to do a 1/2 dose of Ivermectin. She was fine, so a couple weeks later I gave the other 1/2 dose. Over the next year she then had another full Ivermectin dose, a full Equimaxx dose, and a full TapeCare Plus dose. All without consequence. So what was different this time? I don't know. Especially when she "seemed" to be at her healthiest and soundest yet. I just don't get it.


A2, have you used this particular wormer before? Wondering if it's possible that maybe the manufacturer made some changes to their formulation or perhaps there could be a problem with that particular lot...

[goeslikestink]

Eq - Well, I went back for the bedtime check 3 1/2 hours after administering it and I "thought" she looked a bit ouchie when she turned in her stall, but like I said, I could have been imagining it. I really over-think things with her. It would have been 13 hours later that I found her in full blown acute laminitis. What I thought I saw at 3 1/2 hours might have been nothing.

Nothing changed at all in her diet, environment, or schedule, except for getting the dewormer. Same hay from the same load, everything was the same. Of course there might have been some weed in the hay, there's no way to know that. But it just seemed way too coincidental for her to just crash the next morning after being dewormed.

GLS - If you think you can manage this mare better, you hop your sweet white butt on a plane and get over here and do it. You have no clue what I do to make sure everything is safe for Libbey. Tested hay, soaking it, grazing muzzle, dry lot, vet check ups, supplements to support an IR horse, no grain, special ordering beet pulp without molasses, trimmed every 4 weeks, trying various hoof boots and shoeing to get it right. I walk and exercise her every chance available to keep her moving. I spend an extra 20 minutes every morning walking hay WAAAAY out into the fields so the 3 of them have to really WALK in between piles so she keeps exercising. Of sure it'd be easy and lazy to dump the bale at the back door of the barn where they'd stand in one place all day and gorge their gutts.

You don't know the money and time we have spent to revamp our farm so its safe for her, to get the vet care she needs, and so forth. It was a major responsibility to take on a rescue that was so chronically foundered already we didn't know if she'd even make it.

How many foundered horses have you owned GLS? This is my first and I found out right quick that you can do everything right and things still go to hell. The vet was waiting for the xray machine to show up with another vet, so we had a full hour to talk. Yeah, I've never had that much time with a vet - EVER! I told her everything, every little aspect of everything I do with Libbey, and she said there's nothing she could suggest to do differently. I asked her about any special shoeing she would recommend and she said no - just continue with the Boa boots and pads for now. I asked about any other feeding options, she said the low NSC hay and some Wellsolve to administer bute is the best she can get. The beet pulp is fine, as long as its small amounts and no-molasses. She said the trim was fine, not vaccinating her is fine, etc....

So what else would you have me change GLS? Do tell. Believe me, I'd do anything to make things easier and safer for Libbey. But right now I don't know what that would be. So since you know, lay it on me. I'm all ears (eyes??) lol.

I've been talking with another trimmer regarding some things to change in her trim, and I'm very hopeful this will be a positive step. The vet thought the trim was fine, but I'm going to try some tweaks that may yield better comfort for her.

Anyway - she's doing ok, the Boa boots are a god-send. :) Thank you for the jingles, everyone. It's just a tough time :(



excuse me but you had early warning signs back in oct 2008 and you chose to ignore them
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=171419

another sign in nov 2008
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=177450

and one shouldnt feed beat pulp to a laminitus pony as its high in engery and sugar
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=170949

did you change to this - http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=188706


http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=179601

now then i am not being nasty i am trying to point out what your doing wrong
and how to help your horse although be it you think i am i have had laminitc horses and ponies in my time thanks and the last one was super ted all of 10.2hhs i got him as an oldie already at aged 15 he lived till 34yrs he had cronic lamintus when i got him due to him being left out in a field for 2/3 yrs on his own his front feet were curled and his back feet were the biggest slippers you ever saw with good managment form self as a strict controlled diet and strict grassing protocol and proper farrier care as unlike you the qualifed farrier can do corrective trimming and coupled with vetinary care the horse lived another
19yrs
on advice from a farrier i was told not to feed any nuts of any kind as they are a complete foodstuffs i was also told by vets and farriers alike not to feed beat pulp which was commonsense to me anyways
and also told to monitor his hay in take and his grazzing of which he had a small paddock to himself which was completely mobile so i knew how much grass in take he had ie stripe grazzing
with a good exercise programme devised by self vets and farriers to make sure the pony was comfy in all that he did and also at rest
its was completely controlled he also had cushions and was arthuritic in later years but due to his age that was to be expected as like when people get old they get frial same to does the horse or pony eventually what in depends on the health of the individual

my point is you have had lots of signs throughout the year
you have also ridden this horse without thought after 3 weeks sittig in a field
and you think its ok to do that which it isnt the horse has health issues and commonsense says dont any good horseperosn wouldnt have done that to a horse with health issues
or to ahorse thats unfit after sitting for 3weeks

like i said a lot of it is how one manages there horses and if you had doubts back in 2008

as cresty neck or chest then the horse needed to be looked at obese is the 1st sign of trouble in ahorse a chrest neck and stiff as a baord is another there feet and signs
of changes ie can be rings on the outside or not smooth to touch is another etc

i do feel and hope she comes thorugh but you have to change some of the things your doing to make her life more comfortable
a change as in to msm post of which i dont know if you did or didnt can also have played a part as to how she is now
which this might be the cuaseof the flare up - note i said might
i dont hate you as you surgest or am i being nasty
your posting doubts as to why and what cuased it then you have to start looking at home
as in yourself as your the keeper of the animal in question and what you do to the animal
is down to you and you alone
so rather that be god and the guru of right or wrong look at what your doing
and how you do it and how you apply it to your horses you have to change soemthing for it not to happen again
to be honest i know she would rotate eventually some time soon
raht er than get at me do something to help your horses and have a bit of savvy

like have your hay tested -- it might be to high or to rich and you have it open at the back of the barn whereby horses can groge it all day just becuase you put piles in the field deosnt mean to say they all going to eat there pile whos dominant will get the most
dont let them have access to behind the barn to your hay stack
commonsense things to change - you have lots of grass you said in one breath she in a dry paddock
on own and the next shes out in the field

quote you I walk and exercise her every chance available to keep her moving. I spend an extra 20 minutes every morning walking hay WAAAAY out into the fields so the 3 of them have to really WALK in between piles so she keeps exercising.

very contrictory

ps as regards to bhs book -- the bhs has been around for yonks and is a governing member of the fei
in fact most of the venues are bhs related and all instructors and acreddited traniers are taught by the bhs and i am also under the bhs guidelines as an expreince trianer my yard is bhs run which is listed with the bhs the bhs manual works - as in by the book - i rest my case

[rcloisonne]

IMO, this is NOT new rotation. Extensive hoof capsule distortion, PIII remodeling and a huge laminar wedge did not happen overnight. It looks like old founder that hasn't been addressed properly.

While I have no doubt the horse is currently laminitic from whatever the cause, the distortion, poor mechanics (breakover WAY too far in front of the bone) and high heels need to be corrected. In addition, while the boots and soft pads may be providing some measure of comfort they don’t offer much support to an unstable hoof capsule nor do they correct the mechanics. They also shouldn’t be worn 24-7.

If it were my horse, I’d have her in Styrofoam pads - like yesterday. Go to the EDSS or website for instructions on how to apply CORRECTLY. Better yet, order the video. It discusses the why’s as well as the how to’s.

If you haven’t already done so, also I suggest you repost the x-rays and pictures of the actual hooves on horseshoes.com. You’ll need a very experienced farrier to fix this - not another barefoot trimmer with nothing more to offer than a rasp, false promises and wishful thinking.

If the horse’s diet and supplements have been mentioned I missed it but seem to recall you’ve never had your hay tested or felt this horse needed anything special in that way. It might be a good thing for the horse if you to rethink that. BTW, what pellets are you feeding? She should be getting well soaked hay (if yours hasn’t been tested) and that’s it during the acute stage.

Good luck. I’ve been in your shoes and struggled for years. The hardest part by far for us (diet management was easy once I got the hang of it) was finding knowledgeable and competent hoof care in my area. We tried the whole barefoot thing with several different trimmers for more than 2 years and never got anywhere. My mare’s x-rays looked as bad as yours.

[George Myers]

IMO, this is NOT new rotation. Extensive hoof capsule distortion, PIII remodeling and a huge laminar wedge did not happen overnight. It looks like old founder that hasn't been addressed properly.

While I have no doubt the horse is currently laminitic from whatever the cause, the distortion, poor mechanics (breakover WAY too far in front of the bone) and high heels need to be corrected. In addition, while the boots and soft pads may be providing some measure of comfort they don’t offer much support to an unstable hoof capsule nor do they correct the mechanics. They also shouldn’t be worn 24-7.


I agree completely with your diagnosis but not the treatment. :)

The pedal bone would not rotate and separate that quickly in a healthy hoof with a solid laminar suspension - especially not one with a very thick healthy sole. Acute laminitis can occur very quickly but all the indicators are that this horse's pedal bone was being held in place by the thick sole not by a healthy interdigitation of the laminae.

[marta]

do you have prior radiographs to compare to?

i remember you saying in the past that your vet wouldn't test for cushings. glad you're testing now. my mare doesn't have any outward signs of cushings either. but this summer her ACTH turned out to be out of range. she had two laminitic episodes with no obvious cause and difficult to control with the usual approaches (soaking hay, dry lot turnout, no grain, etc). during the second laminitic episode in 2 months i finally listened to the vet and put her on pergolide. suddenly laminitic episode resolved and we have not had one since.

and btw, goeslikestink, molasses free beet pulp is recommended for horses with metabolic problems, it has a low glycocemic index and low NSC as well. it is the preferred way to get their supplements into them without grain (or minimal grain).

good luck! hope you get it under control quickly and she returns to the comfort zone.

[LMH]

gls let it GO for heavens sake. When Polo foundered one person did the SAME thing to me-it is unkind and NOT helpful.

Warning signs last fall are NOT a blame for today. Metabolic horses can sit on the fence for AGES doing well then crash.

And for heaven's sake unmolassessed beet pulp is NOT high in sugar.

Leave her alone for now. Be human.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=marta;3859778]do you have prior radiographs to compare to?

i remember you saying in the past that your vet wouldn't test for cushings. glad you're testing now. my mare doesn't have any outward signs of cushings either. but this summer her ACTH turned out to be out of range. she had two laminitic episodes with no obvious cause and difficult to control with the usual approaches (soaking hay, dry lot turnout, no grain, etc). during the second laminitic episode in 2 months i finally listened to the vet and put her on pergolide. suddenly laminitic episode resolved and we have not had one since.

and btw, goeslikestink, molasses free beet pulp is recommended for horses with metabolic problems, it has a low glycocemic index and low NSC as well. it is the preferred way to get their supplements into them without grain (or minimal grain).

good luck! hope you get it under control quickly and she returns to the comfort
yes i know about the white beta pulp but shes been feeding ordinary beat pulp a2 has posted in the past how many times to rinse it etc
so i high lighted that fact as a thing to change

[goeslikestink]

gls let it GO for heavens sake. When Polo foundered one person did the SAME thing to me-it is unkind and NOT helpful.

Warning signs last fall are NOT a blame for today. Metabolic horses can sit on the fence for AGES doing well then crash.

And for heaven's sake unmolassessed beet pulp is NOT high in sugar.

Leave her alone for now. Be human.

excuse me -- i have always tried to help her as lets quote her she never had a lamintic horse before and brought one so she could learn on

obese horses get laminitus --- cresty neck is a sign that you really need to look at your horses diet
how you ride your horse over terrian doing what her and her mate did on there lovely day out after weeks off can also cause laminitus as th ehorse isnt fit which puts strains and stress on legs and whats on the end a leg but a foot

so come come commonsense as in not to do she asked iam saying my opnnion

ooh and keeping them on deep littered beds doesnt help a horse thas got laminitus either

you can manage and control lamintus but you cant cure it and your management of foodstuffs has to be strict protocol

[LMH]

excuse me -- i have always tried to help her as lets quote her she never had a lamintic horse before and brought one so she could learn on

obese horses get laminitus --- cresty neck is a sign that you really need to look at your horses diet
how you ride your horse over terrian doing what her and her mate did on there lovely day out after weeks off can also cause laminitus as th ehorse isnt fit which puts strains and stress on legs and whats on the end a leg but a foot

so come come commonsense as in not to do she asked iam saying my opnnion

ooh and keeping them on deep littered beds doesnt help a horse thas got laminitus either

you can manage and control lamintus but you cant cure it and your management of foodstuffs has to be strict protocol

Why doesn't deep bedding help?

That makes no sense.

I am very certain she is aware of diet control on horses like this-even with the BEST diet, things can still go very wrong.

Perhaps you could start another thread on managing the laminitic horse?:) Then we could all learn your opinion on a more appropriate thread.;)

[ChocoMare]

Perhaps you could start another thread on managing the laminitic horse?:) Then we could all learn your opinion on a more appropriate thread.;)

Amen!

[JB]

gls let it GO for heavens sake. When Polo foundered one person did the SAME thing to me-it is unkind and NOT helpful.

Warning signs last fall are NOT a blame for today. Metabolic horses can sit on the fence for AGES doing well then crash.

And for heaven's sake unmolassessed beet pulp is NOT high in sugar.

Leave her alone for now. Be human.
Another Amen.

gls, your intentions might be good, but do you REALLY think that trying to PROVE that AT has actively caused this new development is in any way helpful or constructive? Did you NOT read where she said
Tested hay, soaking it, grazing muzzle, dry lot, vet check ups, supplements to support an IR horse, no grain, special ordering beet pulp without molasses,
For heavens sake, what else do you want removed from this horse's diet and life enjoyment? You constantly say that beet pulp is unsuitable for metabolic horses because of high sugar - do you even know what beet pulp is? I just about guarantee that AT soaks her bp (as per your hard work ferreting out her "dry bp caused choke on a poor horse at a vet clinic" thread) and I'd bet she rinses any remaining speck of sugar out of it as well.

excuse me -- i have always tried to help her as lets quote her she never had a lamintic horse before and brought one so she could learn on
What ELSE would you have her do then? How many IR horses have you managed into old age?

obese horses get laminitus
So do skinny horses.

--- cresty neck is a sign that you really need to look at your horses diet
Don't you think she has not done that? Do you read ANY of the positive management steps she has taken?

how you ride your horse over terrian doing what her and her mate did on there lovely day out after weeks off can also cause laminitus as th ehorse isnt fit which puts strains and stress on legs and whats on the end a leg but a foot
Ohhhh, horrors, a whole week off!

so come come commonsense as in not to do she asked iam saying my opnnion
You seem to be offering a lot more than opinion. What common sense has she lacked?

ooh and keeping them on deep littered beds doesnt help a horse thas got laminitus either
Why not?

you can manage and control lamintus but you cant cure it and your management of foodstuffs has to be strict protocol
Geeze, you really haven't read what her management program has been, have you?

You can absolutely cure laminitis IF you can find and remove the cause. Finding the cause can be a bitch sometimes, and even if you do find it, you cannot always control environmental factors.

Go start your own thread on perfectly managing every IR horse so that a flare-up of laminitis doesn't happen, ever. I'm sure we could all learn a thing or two from it.

[Auventera Two]

GLS doesn't have a clue what she's talking about. Half her "facts" are not truth at ALL. I have 3 horses, and all 3 are managed a bit differently. She has combined stories of the other 2 and linked it to Libbey.

Libbey WAS foundered when I rescued her (not "bought" her so I could learn as GLS said.) I went there with a farrier to work on her feet, and when it was clear the owner could NOT care for her, and HAD NOT cared for her, I offered to take her. My intent was to bring her home and euthanize her just to get her out of that bad situation. It was the FARRIER who said - no better way to learn about founder than to live with it every day. Again, GLS has twisted the facts.

Anyway, yes there was a huge laminar wedge and rotation already. It had been there for at least 2 years without any treatment at all. But I've had her for 2 years and we've been working on it. As of this fall (actually late summer) there was still laminar wedge and capsule distortion. But through the months of October - February, the new hoof growth was REALLY tight, hoof growth sped up, everytime I dressed flare at the toe, there was no new laminar wedge showing. The feet were really for the first time looking NORMAL. She even had a significant amount of concavity! She now has the best frogs I've ever seen on her, heels started opening up nicely, digital cushion is very firm and thick. This was all significant improvement from when I brought her home. Significant.

2 weeks prior to this episode I noticed the coronary bands looking a bit "puffy" for lack of better word. No heat, or real swelling, no pulses, no lameness. Just a bit "different, or maybe a little larger than normal????" So I made an apt. to get new radiographs on Feb. 7, which was the soonest opening they had.

Friday the feet still looked just like normal. Saturday morning, her hoof capsules just looked VERY different. I can't even explain it. I felt the coronary bands, and they were definitely protruding - that is evident in these radiographs.

I trim 2 other foundered horses. The horses were A++ one day, ate some hay that was "bad" and by the next day they couldn't walk. Xrays were done that same day, and 5 degrees or so of rotation was already evident. I don't know all the facts on "how fast the bone can physically move" in the capsule, but I know that Libbey's feet looked normal on Friday, and by Saturday morning the feet just looked badly unbalanced, and different.

[Auventera Two]

IMO, this is NOT new rotation. Extensive hoof capsule distortion, PIII remodeling and a huge laminar wedge did not happen overnight. It looks like old founder that hasn't been addressed properly.

While I have no doubt the horse is currently laminitic from whatever the cause, the distortion, poor mechanics (breakover WAY too far in front of the bone) and high heels need to be corrected. In addition, while the boots and soft pads may be providing some measure of comfort they don’t offer much support to an unstable hoof capsule nor do they correct the mechanics. They also shouldn’t be worn 24-7.

If it were my horse, I’d have her in Styrofoam pads - like yesterday. Go to the EDSS or website for instructions on how to apply CORRECTLY. Better yet, order the video. It discusses the why’s as well as the how to’s.

If you haven’t already done so, also I suggest you repost the x-rays and pictures of the actual hooves on horseshoes.com. You’ll need a very experienced farrier to fix this - not another barefoot trimmer with nothing more to offer than a rasp, false promises and wishful thinking.

If the horse’s diet and supplements have been mentioned I missed it but seem to recall you’ve never had your hay tested or felt this horse needed anything special in that way. It might be a good thing for the horse if you to rethink that. BTW, what pellets are you feeding? She should be getting well soaked hay (if yours hasn’t been tested) and that’s it during the acute stage.

Good luck. I’ve been in your shoes and struggled for years. The hardest part by far for us (diet management was easy once I got the hang of it) was finding knowledgeable and competent hoof care in my area. We tried the whole barefoot thing with several different trimmers for more than 2 years and never got anywhere. My mare’s x-rays looked as bad as yours.

No I don't have recent radiographs, just old ones from when I got her. Yes, her hay has been tested and is at 10% NSC. Even at that, I STILL SOAK IT. Pellets are Wellsolve L/S, and only a little bit. Vet said those were fine. Yes I'm well aware of the styrofoam protocol. I've linked to that site about a bajillion times, and I DO have the video. I opted to cut up a Cashel foam saddle pad to use for boot pads, in conjunction with 12mm EVAs, which the vet said was fine. She said the styrofoam was always used as an "old standby" but she didn't see why these pads were any worse. An experienced farrier DID work on her before and didn't fix anything. At first she appeared to walk better but throughout the shoeing cycle she got worse. The vet told me that the trim was fine, except toes could come back a little more (hoof capsule already measures 2 1/2 inches from center of coronary band to tip of toe.) I had a consult with a new vet yesterday whom I am going to switch Libbey's care to. She said she prefers to see foundered horses without shoes so that they can be trimmed every couple of weeks. I am capable of doing that myself.

[Auventera Two]

Well you know what - just nevermind. If anyone really cares they can go to my website and send me an email. The jihad mentality of this forum is unbelievable. People run off half cocked with only half the facts and make up the rest of the lies as they go. Too much of my valuable time has been wasted attempting to have productive conversations here.

[loshad]

AV2, do you really not remember who it was who posted such horrible things to Coreene about Willem? I certainly do.

I hope Libby gets happy and comfortable quickly.

[ChocoMare]

Of course she does, EDITED TO ADD.....if it did indeed happen but I do not have first-hand knowledge of it. Have no dog in this fight.

But Coreene is a lady and knows that, back then, A2 wasn't as educated as she is now....alas, thru the School of Cushings Reality/Hard-Knocks. :( (As I have been too.) So Coreene knows that rubbing A2's nose in it would be undignified, cruel and so beneath her. She showed compassion. :sadsmile:

[BornToRide]

If a horse has been moving fine and then suddenly not after the worming, then this is most likely what pushed the horse over the edge. Why exactly will probably remain a mystery until we have mo studies in that area.

I have a client whose only 4 year old TB foundered after receiving 2 5-way shots shortly after one another, because the trainer forgot he had already received one. It can happen.

[LMH]

If a horse has been moving fine and then suddenly not after the worming, then this is most likely what pushed the horse over the edge. Why exactly will probably remain a mystery until we have mo studies in that area.

I have a client whose only 4 year old TB foundered after receiving 2 5-way shots shortly after one another, because the trainer forgot he had already received one. It can happen.

So you disagree with what Eqt posted about Pollitt's studies?

[CoolMeadows]

ps as regards to bhs book -- the bhs has been around for yonks and is a governing member of the fei
in fact most of the venues are bhs related and all instructors and acreddited traniers are taught by the bhs and i am also under the bhs guidelines as an expreince trianer my yard is bhs run which is listed with the bhs the bhs manual works - as in by the book - i rest my case

Are you an I or an AI? You sound nothing like all the BHS AIs and Is who brought me up. You also had a horse so malnourished that the lack of certain minerals caused depigmentation issues around his eyes, correct? And then you said you bought it a cattle block (at your vets recommendation!) to rectify the situation. Over here, I'd be hunting a different vet as cow minerals are frequently medicated with substances toxic to horses.

I think you have misunderstood the stories about the 3 different horses of ATs. I second the please be human request and quit kicking someone while they're down in a desperate effort to show your (imagined) superiority.

I hope Libbey shows some improvement.

[mp]

AV2, I'm sorry your horse has had a relapse. I've dealt with founder/laminitis and it's extremely frustrating.

The best way to treat it is with a good vet and a good farrier. Ask the new vet for a recommendation for who she likes to work with. Whether you do the trimming or not, it's smart to have two sets of professional eyes on the situation.

Best wishes to Libbey.

[BornToRide]

So you disagree with what Eqt posted about Pollitt's studies?Uhm, not necessarily, why? Everything is relative. Wormer is not the same as black walnut shavings - also depends on how it is broken down and possibly absorbed by the body. Food does not remain long in the stomach in horses. Perhaps the toxins in the wormer were absorbed quicker and more than normal because the digestive tract is compromised in some way and the horse could not handle it like another one would. Or perhaps it was an overreaction of the immune system to the wormer, more of an allergic reaction that caused the problem. All possible and really hard to say without more research in this area.

If the horse was fine before, and since I have not seen this horse I have to rely on what A2 is saying, and then shortly after the worming breaks down, this would be a pretty sure sign to me that the two are connected.

[LMH]

Well everyone can save your typing from wishing Libs well wishes. AT has decided to take a little COTH break for now.

BTR-was his study only involving black walnut or was it braoder? I honestly don't know.

I don't think EqT others don't believe AT-just trying to help her make sure she looked at everything. It would be sad to blame the dewormer if something else was the trigger. Not trying to be difficult, just helpful.:)

[BornToRide]

I believe it was just black walnut shavings. I personally experienced another case where bracken fern probably caused chronic laminitis, but in this instance the horse was sore all the time from continued ingestion of low levels of bracken fern.

[pj]

You can't say you are in this for the horses then kick someone who's in a bad spot with their horse. Someone who is trying hard.

Bad form GLS. Offer solutions instead of the toe of your boot.
OR just say nothing. No advice to offer but adding this girl to my prayers.

[JB]

Well everyone can save your typing from wishing Libs well wishes. AT has decided to take a little COTH break for now.

Give her my best, and maybe I can hear some good Libby updates through you :)

[monstrpony]

Expressing good wishes for Libby, anyway.

Could it be seasonal? A little late, but maybe the time of year + the worming just pushed her over the edge.

In any event, I know A2 has done a lot of hard work and research on getting this horse into better shape, and I'm sorry she had a setback. The first symptom Monstr had of his Cushings was a laminitis episode; on looking back, he had been drinking and peeing a lot, but with a 1700 lb draft horse, it can be hard to tell what is excess. Anyhow, I'm glad they're checking for Cushings. Once that card is played, it's all a game of roulette anyway; there's no telling what will set them off no matter how careful you are.

Jingles--

[FatPalomino]

A2,

I hope Libby is on the mend. Did she had previous rotation? Those sure are some sad rads you have now.

I, too, would wonder about the Ivermectrin itself giving such a reaction, but maybe endotoxin release from a worm die off??? If that were the case, I'd assume she'd be running a fever, etc. Now, of course, that's coming from a 2nd year vet student who by no means is an expert in anything. We've had great success using Biosponge in cases where we think there may be endotoxin release triggering laminitis. We do use it before we see the signs of laminitis, although once a horse got into feed, was started on Biosponge (and other therapies) right away. The next day he was slightly shifting his weight, heat in the feet, etc but it was very subtle and did not proceed past that (and resolved within a day). We were also lucky, off course. That seems to play a part.

I keep Biosponge in the barn because it can be hard to find and, so far, has worked wonders (in that particular case, thankfully I was able to meet with my vet on a Sat. evening to pick it up).

Keep us updated.

[BornToRide]

I keep Biosponge in the barn because it can be hard to find and, so far, has worked wonders (in that particular case, thankfully I was able to meet with my vet on a Sat. evening to pick it up).

Very much agree!

[JB]

UAA gel from Valley Vet can be very helpful to give in cases like this - forgot to even mention it until the BioSponge :)

[LarkspurCO]

I keep Biosponge in the barn because it can be hard to find and, so far, has worked wonders (in that particular case, thankfully I was able to meet with my vet on a Sat. evening to pick it up).


I wonder if it would be worthwhile to feed Biosponge prophylactically, like before de-working or vaccinating. I'm scared to give my foundered mare anything, but worming is due. And I have a jar of Biosponge.

[EqTrainer]

Pollitt mentions the black walnut shavings anecdotally - he did elaborate studies that included determing how long after the initial incident laminitis actually begins to occur.

I agree w/FatPalomino about the Biosponge, I have used it the same way w/good results.

[Rodeio]

Well you know what - just nevermind. If anyone really cares they can go to my website and send me an email. The jihad mentality of this forum is unbelievable. People run off half cocked with only half the facts and make up the rest of the lies as they go. Too much of my valuable time has been wasted attempting to have productive conversations here.

Considering you are one of the nastiest posters here I find this ironic.

[Thomas_1]

Sorry to hear about the pony. Having seen the x rays though I really do doubt that that's happened because of a wormer. That just doesn't happen overnight.

It will be something that has been coming on for some while. I don't know when you had the last x rays done or how often you are doing them. I'd suggest though that it needs to be pretty often and preferably to inform the farrier for hoofcare protocol. Ensure you have a really good farrier too. One that has got extensive experience of remedial treatment for such cases.

I urge you to ensure you have the best possible team working with this horse. Its absolutely essential if she's to have a fighting chance.

[JB]

Considering you are one of the nastiest posters here I find this ironic.

Has she had issues? You bet.

However, there are and have been FAR nastier posters on this board.

[cloudyandcallie]

Good grief! I wouldn't wish laminitis on the equidae of the nastiest posters in the world!

Please suggest solutions and methods of treatment and quit using the thread to vent your feelings towards the OP. Laminitis sucks and founder is awful.
If you don't have anything helpful to add, please go elsewhere.

I suggest Happy Hoof or the equivalent, seminole now has wellsolve, to get fiber into a stall bound horse. And the vettec pour in pads to help protect the soles and to try to prevent sinking.

[Moderator 1]

Regardless of personal feelings toward other posters and past interactions, let's please remember that we're all horse owners who care about our charges, and gear the thread toward providing continued productive suggestions for helping this horse and those of others who may read this thread for information.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[BumbleBee]

jingles

[marta]

I suggest Happy Hoof or the equivalent, seminole now has wellsolve, to get fiber into a stall bound horse. And the vettec pour in pads to help protect the soles and to try to prevent sinking.

be careful w/ happy hoof. my mare developed laminitis on it. i think it was the alfa alfa pellets that did her in. some metabolic horses cannot handle alfa alfa (of course my mare happens to be one of them...)

[ChocoMare]

Ditto Marta.

My Percheron had been on Happy Hoof (now called EquiSafe) and as her EMS worsened, the alfalfa pellets pushed her over the edge and she came up laminitic again.

LMH pointed me to EquiPride (sugar and starch free -- www.equipride.biz (http://www.equipride.biz)) and since being on that, plus molasses-free beet pulp, Tank has been laminitis free for a YEAR and hasn't abscessed in six months. I also add Remission and Cinnamon to her feed.

She also gets no grass that shows any sign of being green. Green means sugar :(

[cloudyandcallie]

We went on Happy Hoof for a year, and then seminole's "safeandsound" when spillers/seminole split with no problems. I don't like beet pulp or shreds because it puts weight on horses, but my vets said back then that it is fine for laminitis, just get the no or low molasses kinds.

AV2 might want to look into the glue on shoes. My farrier did not use them, he simply reversed Callie's shoes after a dex shot and laminitis (not IR) and the vettec pour in pads worked. But the glue on shoes I think are a good idea as then you don't have the concussion of the nails being driven in.

There are like a million ways that "experts" say to treat laminitis and founder from heartbar shoes to barefoot trimming, but each person has to work with his/her farrier and vet and horse all together to do what is best for the horse/pony.

BTW my vet had my mare on Banamine for a year instead of bute, 2x a day. Worked for us.

So check with your vet and your farrier/trimmer, don't try to trim yourself when rotation is involved and you are the owner. Best to let an expert take over. Good luck.

While the Happy Hoof worked for Callie, she lost weight and it kept fiber in her on stall rest, it, as the therapy provided by my farrier and me, was the solution for my horse and is just a recommendation for others. Like my farrier chose not to use heartbar shoes that other farriers were calling me to say to use.i

And Callie never abscessed with her founder. I guess it is because it was a shot of dex and not IR or cushings or anything? No abscesses for the entire year. She was resectioned and it took that long for her hooves to grow out, but no abscesses. Is this unusual?

[monstrpony]

Is it not the case that the horse in question was RESCUED by the OP after living with LONG-STANDING LAMINITIS and NEGLECT for a long time in her former "home"?

So, yes, the laminitis is long-standing. But, no, it is NOT he OP's fault. The OP has done a pretty darned good job of rehabbing this horse--perhaps not perfect, but pretty darned good. But as any of you laminitis experts know, it is a fragile situation and even an apparently successful recovery--such as this one--can go south very quickly, very dramatically.

This episode is an object lesson for anyone here who is paying attention to the case history.

As an aside, the horse is not the only one who as undergone a noteworthy change over the years. Yeah, maybe the OP hasn't always been the most charming of posters, and change is always a work in progress, but it beats the heck out of stagnation.

[JB]

Is it not the case that the horse in question was RESCUED by the OP after living with LONG-STANDING LAMINITIS and NEGLECT for a long time in her former "home"?
Yep!

So, yes, the laminitis is long-standing. But, no, it is NOT he OP's fault. The OP has done a pretty darned good job of rehabbing this horse--perhaps not perfect, but pretty darned good. But as any of you laminitis experts know, it is a fragile situation and even an apparently successful recovery--such as this one--can go south very quickly, very dramatically.

This episode is an object lesson for anyone here who is paying attention to the case history.
Couldn't agree more - AT has worked her butt off to get Libby comfy, even had her to the point of doing some light trail rides on good footing. How cool is that!

As an aside, the horse is not the only one who as undergone a noteworthy change over the years. Yeah, maybe the OP hasn't always been the most charming of posters, and change is always a work in progress, but it beats the heck out of stagnation.
Agree!!!

[jej]

The sad truth is that we (vets, farriers, researchers, owners) don't completely understand laminitis. While we have developed protocols that work a certain percentage of the time, there are still laminitis events that can't be explained, and despite our very best efforts, cannot be cured or controlled.

As horse owners, we do our very best, but sometimes, even with a great team, doing everything possible, laminitis still reoccurs. It's a real heartbreaker to deal with.

All you can do is your best. Good luck!

[marta]

well put.
those of us who own metabolically challenged horses know how sometimes the direction of the wind seems to send the horse crashing.
it's a very difficult and frustrating condition to live with and to try and 'control.'

[BornToRide]

Not sure if A2s mare is also Cushings, but it is also interesting to note that some Cushings mares seem to be harder to stabilize than geldings. Perhaps this is related to their hormonal changes as well.

[Appassionato]

well put.
those of us who own metabolically challenged horses know how sometimes the direction of the wind seems to send the horse crashing.
it's a very difficult and frustrating condition to live with and to try and 'control.'

Ditto. As an example of how weird these guy's can be, my guy's case the summer with hard ground was WAY worse than the winter with frozen ground. And no, it wasn't fly stomping. People commented that Bo rarely ever swished his tail at them, and he would scratch his leg with his face instead of stomping. He was also sprayed 2 to 3 times daily. But when in a drought that horse would get touchy on the fronts. And he would NOT run around and play when it was hot. So, figure that one out. Burning feet syndrome in horses perhaps? :lol:

I think a lot of folks are thinking strictly about what affected THEIR horse and not another, and their successes makes their level of horse care superior to others. Not so! What would set mine off didn't bother others, like the drought/hard ground I mentioned. But I could give injections and deworm with no reactions. Alfalfa didn't bother him, but he really didn't like it so I dropped it from his diet. They're all different.

LMH, please pass on my well wishes to A2 and that I hope Libbey is recovering. My line of thinking still goes along with FatPalomino's as far as what may have set Libbey off, but that's up to A2 to look into. Also, I never saw the thread about Libbey and "hair" until tonight, so please let her know those are the exact same weird patches Bo had: on the hind quarters near the tail and the backs of his legs. He also grew a crazy coat on his fetlocks and downward, and had a place or two on his neck. Like he was trying to become more aerodynamic or something! :lol: And like Libbey, these patches weren't there the year(s) before! After owning Bo for 18 years and being the ONLY person to ever body clip him, I would have known that horse's coat pretty darned well. I can see where A2 would be taken back by what she saw, regardless of the horse's breeding. Can't say A2 ain't watching the horse, now can we? ;)

[Auventera Two]

Libbey's blood values came back today.

The normal ACTH values for this lab is 2-10. Libbey was 17.1.

The normal Insulin value was anything below 300 and hers was 882.

Glucose was normal.

The recommended treatment is 1 mg. Pergolide daily. I will go to the cushingsgroup and read first before doing anything. It's a scary step.

[marta]

because it seems that every time i do, it falls on dead ears.
but here it is, winter laminitis.

[marta]

guess you have your answer. perhaps send those results to the idiot vet who didn't want to test her all the time ago.

[BornToRide]

That's what I suspected - Cushings horses tend to be more sensitive to stresses of the body than "just" IR horses, hence the reaction to the wormer.

[marta]

That's what I suspected - Cushings horses tend to be more sensitive to stresses of the body than "just" IR horses, hence the reaction to the wormer.

you're assuming it was reaction to the wormer.
i don't know if that has been or can be established with all certainty.

[BornToRide]

That is correct, but when you browse through the Yahoo Equine Cushings group you will find numerous similar cases. It is conceivable that when the body becomes stressed for whatever reason, it could push a horse into a laminitic attack.

Simply put, the body pushes more stored sugar into the blood stream to support a perceived fight or flight response that never comes, but then the body that is already compromised, cannot effectively deal with the excess.