The Koppertox Irony [Archive]

goeslikestink

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:14 AM

skin is skin,, copper or zinc lack of normally shows around the horses eyes
same to with cattle as in either white eye liner or balck eyeliner as in rings around the eyes

so this would be apparent before ones foot and can be cured via a vets and minneral diet
cattle cake has a larger amount of zinc and copper in it as i know as one horse i had
had it and the vets told me to buy some cattle cake as it rather large and i only needed a small quantity of it to cure the horse i went to my maties dairy farm
within one week the horse improved and hair growth returned to normal

thrush can be prevented by cleaning the foot daily and not keep the horse in wet conditions
or muddy swampy fields or dirty stables ie deep littered beds daily hoff care by picking out the foot also helps with bonding and trust do when the farrier comes the horse stands still

my horses have there feet pick out before they go into the field and when they come back in
same to with ridden work before and after such a small thing to do which can help preventing thrush
if the enviroment where the horse lives is wet and damp and cuasing foot problems like thrush or mud fever then move the horse to a better enviroment

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:22 AM

skin is skin,, copper or zinc lack of normally shows around the horses eyes
same to with cattle as in either white eye liner or balck eyeliner as in rings around the eyes
Can't say I've ever seen a horse with "rings" around his eyes due to lack of cu or zn, but maybe that's only if they are REALLY deficient, which is not often the case with horses. Here, we aren't talking about a major deficiency, which can cause all SORTS of issues. We're talking about something relatively minor that is the last missing piece of a puzzle.

so this would be apparent before ones foot and can be cured via a vets and minneral diet
See above

cattle cake has a larger amount of zinc and copper in it as i know as one horse i had
had it and the vets told me to buy some cattle cake as it rather large and i only needed a small quantity of it to cure the horse i went to my maties dairy farm
within one week the horse improved and hair growth returned to normal

Certainly Cu-deficiency can cause hair issues. One symptom of that in horses is the "fishook" curl to the end of the body hairs.

thrush can be prevented by cleaning the foot daily and not keep the horse in wet conditions
or muddy swampy fields or dirty stables ie deep littered beds daily hoff care by picking out the foot also helps with bonding and trust do when the farrier comes the horse stands still
Once can do all those things and still have "hoof crud". Thrush doesn't need wet or dirty conditions to develop. It, and other fungal issues, can develop because of internal issues, such as a mineral imbalance, or too much sugar.

my horses have there feet pick out before they go into the field and when they come back in
same to with ridden work before and after such a small thing to do which can help preventing thrush
Yes, CAN help, and often does, as you're making sure there isn't manure and urine constantly trapped in the collateral groove.

if the enviroment where the horse lives is wet and damp and cuasing foot problems like thrush or mud fever then move the horse to a better enviroment
My horses can spend weeks and weeks and weeks in red clay mud here, Summer or Winter. That doesn't given them thrush. Wet/damp conditions alone do not cause thrush in a healthy foot on a healthy horse.

bird4416

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:30 AM

So, instead of putting Koppertox on their feet, we should be squirting it into their feed. :lol: Interesting.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:40 AM

Is this more junk science or just a rambling observation?

No, just a case of bad usage of an interesting article on nutrition. Pete Ramey lists several problems related to a deficiency of copper and zinc. Thrush in and by itself is not proof that there is such a deficiency.

To give proper credit: Most of Pete's knowledge on equine nutrition came from Dr. Eleanor Kellon - as acknowledged by Pete.

goeslikestink

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:47 AM

Can't say I've ever seen a horse with "rings" around his eyes due to lack of cu or zn, but maybe that's only if they are REALLY deficient, which is not often the case with horses. Here, we aren't talking about a major deficiency, which can cause all SORTS of issues. We're talking about something relatively minor that is the last missing piece of a puzzle.

See above

Certainly Cu-deficiency can cause hair issues. One symptom of that in horses is the "fishook" curl to the end of the body hairs.

Once can do all those things and still have "hoof crud". Thrush doesn't need wet or dirty conditions to develop. It, and other fungal issues, can develop because of internal issues, such as a mineral imbalance, or too much sugar.

Yes, CAN help, and often does, as you're making sure there isn't manure and urine constantly trapped in the collateral groove.

My horses can spend weeks and weeks and weeks in red clay mud here, Summer or Winter. That doesn't given them thrush. Wet/damp conditions alone do not cause thrush in a healthy foot on a healthy horse.

there have been quite a few post on here with horses with rings on around the eyes
the horse i had was a long time ago and in my time with horse i have seen it 3 times
one horse in peticular ended up with white eye liner for life as her normal hair growth didnt come back she was a bay pony the other was a chesnut the last a palomino
which 2 were dark eyed as in hair lost and one with pink pigmentation which went white
in each case it was cured by cattle cake - as in a handful in ther dinner
vets do have a high mineral injections that they can give which one was added to in the case of the bay pony maybe that why her eyes lids changed colour who knows all the horse had a full recovery from it but none had problem feet as in a health issue with the foot

i can understand sort of how it might affect the foot as hair and horn etc
as any thing you give or feed the horse always shows up in there feet, but as the foot grows about 1/4 of size in year it might not be noticed to the untrianed eye
so to the normal bod as in joe bloggs the horse which is front of them they see ahorse
and any changes ie eyes are in full view every day so it would be a bit hard to miss
as for the feet depends if they clean them on a dialy basis which can prevent a lot of stuff if they took the same amount of notice to there feet as they took tothe horses body
one grooms the horse or brings it to ride it or checks it out in the field but dont check it feet whereby if they cleaned them out might save them a lot of bother plus its encoruages the horse to stand still and behaved if handled dialy grooming and pikcing out feet is atrust issue and bonding to the horse

i never say i understand all about feet as iam not a farrier nor a vet but i know if my horse is lame and i know roughly what cuased it if it is, which is hardly ever and i have more than one horse at any one time, thrush issues i have had but with intense cleaning it can be got rid off before its becomes a problem with secnodary infection and also can make a horse lame other horses that i have in have had a few issues with it but if you attack it aggressively ie the thrush you can ge rid of it and there not a problem afterwards
which i dont think having as many horses as i have had is anything to do with zinc or copper but the enviroment and perhaps management of how one keeps there horses

below are a few links all saying the same thing cleanliness and managment
ie hygene can prevent thrush,

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.horseandhound.co.uk%2Fbest%2F article.php%3Faid%3D47567&ei=EEuISabdNoaR-gbjmsXZBw&usg=AFQjCNEAonZCo8n5X43rAWu442HB10zmAA&sig2=qqac8xjhHukj8AAvk6kSKA

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalherbs.co.uk%2Fhorse%2Fd iseases_thrush.htm&ei=EEuISabdNoaR-gbjmsXZBw&usg=AFQjCNGsYlb1D4G-hGI8KTGwysx-r-dj7A&sig2=n1Q1APV_qXvSutrbaCi61A

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clydevetgroup.co.uk%2Fequine% 2Fnewsletters%2Fnov05.htm&ei=EEuISabdNoaR-gbjmsXZBw&usg=AFQjCNHqGDMsTRbFZUDMK1EojBZVsctvRA&sig2=kiGzCatNBfcvcB08LNihXg

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clydevetgroup.co.uk%2Fequine% 2Fnewsletters%2Fnov05.htm&ei=EEuISabdNoaR-gbjmsXZBw&usg=AFQjCNHqGDMsTRbFZUDMK1EojBZVsctvRA&sig2=kiGzCatNBfcvcB08LNihXg

irishcas

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:51 AM

Yes a balanced, species appropriate diet and the appropriate supplementation where needed is important to overall horse (dog, cat, people, etc) health. I agree that skin problems and NQR hoof problems can be resolved with above mentioned diet. But not always.

Long term, chronic hoof issues are not always solved by Cu/Zn or Mag/Chrom or Ca/Ph. Of course common sense prevails, but yet again, it's not the only answer.

I'm hoping that this is what BTBR is saying and not shouting out absolutes.

Commonsense rules folks.

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:53 AM

I just finished Dr. Kellon's course and I found my own horses needed Copper and Zinc also mostly to balance off of the other minerals. The minerals need to be in the proper ratios also or that can lead to metabolic problems or other problems like iron overload and very possibly skin/hoof conditions. Most commercial feeds do add copper and zinc but I have yet to find one that will balance off of my hay to the correct ratios. Interestingly I have a couple of my own horses that struggle a bit with hoof quality...Most do not and have good feet...but I will be adding targeted supplements to my feed program and it will be very interesting to see if I get good results. You are what you eat and that applies to horses also.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:58 AM

Of course, the copper/zinc deficiency could also be created by too much iron intake, which would cancel the absorption of said minerals.

SEPowell

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:05 AM

Thomas there is a LOT to be said about Cu and Zn in the health of the hoof. A LOT.

I don't know what it's like over there but here, it does not seem to be uncommon for horses to be at least a little deficient in those 2 minerals. Not enough to go "wow, give your horse come copper!" But enough that some people are constantly battling skin crud and NQR feet and whatnot. You can topically treat those those things 'til you're blue in the face, but sometimes it's not until you "boost the immune system", as in, finally get it TRULY healthy, that these things go away.

"boost the immune system" :confused: The immune system's job is to make appropriate antibodies at the appropriate time. I'm not sure if this is the best way to describe the effects of adding copper and zinc to a horse's diet. The most immediate impact would be on the horse's nutrition. So, I guess the question is does the thrush go away because the horse's immune system can launch a better attack against thrush when given extra copper and zinc or does the thrush go away because the added copper and zinc makes the changes in the horse's foot an unfriendly environment for the growth of thrush? These are the kinds of questions I would want answered before I started giving my horses lots of extra copper and zinc. Too much of anything, including water, can become become an overload and threaten your horse's well being.

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:09 AM

Of course, the copper/zinc deficiency could also be created by too much iron intake, which would cancel the absorption of said minerals.

That's what I meant by "proper ratios" of minerals. Iron, Copper, Zinc and Manganese in a 4:1:3:3 ratio.

pattnic

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:18 AM

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:58 AM

Damn! Now this is interesting. Thanks for passing it along.
(I mean, yes, the role of zinc and copper in hoof health makes sense, but mentioning the specific relationship to thrush is what makes it interesting).

Please, read Pete's article instead of BTR's post...you'll find that there is NO specific relationship between zinc and copper deficiency and thrush; chronic trush would only be ONE of several symptoms that would indicate such a deficiency.

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:23 AM

Does he give a time line for this improvement . How many horses in his study? His credentials are?
http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

Please, read Pete's article instead of BTR's post...you'll find that there is NO specific relationship between zinc and copper deficiency and thrush; chronic trush would only be ONE of several symptoms that would indicate such a deficiency.
Are you sure you read his article??

I had several pastures within my clientele that produced poor hooves no matter how they were previously shod, and the problems persisted no matter how I trimmed them. The hoof walls were weak and peeling apart in layers. There was no white line integrity and I could not grow well connected walls. The soles were thin and thrush was common. I would show up at 5 weeks to trim the feet and it looked like I should have been there 4 weeks ago. Again, it was easy to blame the excess sugar consumption and no doubt that is still a big issue. But it was hard to ignore the fact that there were other pastures in the same area that supported nice hooves in spite of that same free access to ‘all you can eat” green grass.

Finally I started testing the grass in those problem pastures and found that there was virtually no copper or zinc in the horse’s diet. [Copper supports enzymes that form the strengthening cross-links between collagen and elastin molecules in connective tissue. Deficiencies lead to abnormalities in bone, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, and arterial walls among the most dramatic consequences. In horses, copper deficiency has been linked to uterine artery rupture in mares, a fatal complication of labor. Copper deficiency is known to cause developmental bone disease in foals. From research in other animals we also know that copper deficiency has adverse effects in hair quality. Although it hasn’t been studied in horses, remember that the ingredients and growth mechanisms for hair and the hoof are virtually identical.

PiaffeDreams

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:39 AM

Whoa.... thrush was one of a host of conditions, not the main condition he was "studying". He made observations about horses not under his care and under the care of different people in different locales. There was no controlling of variables hence no study.

He ALSO says, "During this course, when I looked back at my pasture and hay analysis from the past, it became clear that the lack of copper and zinc were the least of my problems. In my area, the grass, hay, water (and even the mineral blocks I was recommending) consistently have toxic levels of iron.

[Excess iron cancels the absorption of copper and zinc- even if there is an “adequate” amount of those minerals available. Excess iron has many effects, including predisposition to infection, a predisposition to arthritis and increased risk of tendon/ligament problems, liver disease and altered glucose metabolism – including insulin resistance and overt diabetes. Eleanor Kellon, VMD]

High body iron levels drive insulin resistance, and vice versa. This may explain why the high sugar content of the grass had an exaggerated effect on the horses living on the high-iron pastures and water sources. I was first called to each of these facilities because of acute and/or chronic laminitis, and the problems persisted even with grazing muzzles or dirt paddocks with hay (from the same region). Now I understand why."

There is nothing here that is discussing solely Cu/Zn deficiency, only that they play important roles. Ultimately, his observations and anecdotes relate what is already well understood, and that is minerals act based upon their relationships to others and those minerals affect the metabolism of starches. That's it.

And that's not new info. Every single individual horse owner needs to look at each horse's individual living conditions to make an accurate assessment as to what is contributing to metabolic issues, skin conditions, hoof and hair growth etc.

Really, his only message there was to take a course on nutrition and then go figure it out. ;)

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:41 AM

Ideally all forage should be tested on a regular basis and then supplemented as needed. Anything else is just guess work.

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:43 AM

but as the foot grows about 1/4 of size in year it might not be noticed to the untrianed eye
:confused: What does "grows about 1/4 of size in a year" mean? I would HOPE that a whole new foot has grown in a year or less.

as for the feet depends if they clean them on a dialy basis which can prevent a lot of stuff
Agree - can't expect feet packed with urine-soaked manure to be healthy for too long, regardless of how perfect the diet or trim :)

if they took the same amount of notice to there feet as they took tothe horses body
But how many people have we had just on this board who are looking for the next best topical to get rid rain rot and scratches and make the coat less coarse and rough and more shiny? People DO tend to notice the skin/hair more than the feet, I agree, but not nearly enough think for a second that the issues with the skin/hair are likely dietary in origin

one grooms the horse or brings it to ride it or checks it out in the field but dont check it feet whereby if they cleaned them out might save them a lot of bother plus its encoruages the horse to stand still and behaved if handled dialy grooming and pikcing out feet is atrust issue and bonding to the horse
No argument on that - grooming is more than just getting a clean place to put the bridle and saddle :)

i never say i understand all about feet as iam not a farrier nor a vet but i know if my horse is lame and i know roughly what cuased it if it is, which is hardly ever and i have more than one horse at any one time, thrush issues i have had but with intense cleaning it can be got rid off before its becomes a problem with secnodary infection and also can make a horse lame other horses that i have in have had a few issues with it but if you attack it aggressively ie the thrush you can ge rid of it and there not a problem afterwards
Nobody is saying that you can't prevent and get rid of thrush/fungal issues with proper management. BRT is saying, based on what Ramey is saying that SOMETIMES, perhaps more than people think, especially given the more-than-a-few people who seem to have stock in Thrush Buster or Koppertox, sometimes the issue won't go away until you fix the diet, with the copper and zinc being a large piece of that puzzle.

which i dont think having as many horses as i have had is anything to do with zinc or copper but the enviroment and perhaps management of how one keeps there horses
You are in the UK, we are in the US. VERY different climates and soils for the most part. Your area might very well have sufficient Cu and Zn and not be overloaded with Fe.

below are a few links all saying the same thing cleanliness and managment
ie hygene can prevent thrush,

Again, not disagreeing that proper management is critical for hoof health. But it's not necessarily ONLY proper management that keeps this stuff away.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:50 AM

http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm
Are you sure you read his article??

Please BTR, you're not doing anyone a favor - least of all Pete.

As per the section you bolded "and thrush was common" - there are quite a few other problems listed as well, in front of "and...".

It's pretty simple: IF the horse has a good, healthy coat, strong hoof walls, good hoof growth, there is obviously no copper/zinc deficiency, even if that same horse has thrush. If that same horse has chronic thrush, and is managed well, it is time to look at how the horse is trimmed. You can throw all the supplements and koppertox at a horse with chronic thrush, and you can pick its feet every hour of every day, if it's caused by improper trimming it won't do you any good.

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:51 AM

"boost the immune system" :confused: The immune system's job is to make appropriate antibodies at the appropriate time.
Sorry, I meant to clarify that and explain why I put "boost the immune system" in quotes :) I started completing that thought by saying "as in, finally get it TRULY healthy" meaning you are finally feeding the body so that the immune system can work properly.

I'm not sure if this is the best way to describe the effects of adding copper and zinc to a horse's diet. The most immediate impact would be on the horse's nutrition.
Superoxide dismutase (SOD) is a critical building block of immune support functions. Within SOD in general, there are several types. One is Fe-based, one is Cu-based, and one is Zn-based. I *think* the other is Mn based but I might be wrong on that. So, if there is enough Cu to take care of normal daily functions, but not enough for that AND the cu-sod, then part of the immune system is suffering. Or, perhaps there is enough for 3/4 function of the body and the cu-sod. I don't know the body's priorities for that. So yes, it does have an immediate impact on the nuritional intake, but the what/why/how of that is the important part.

So, I guess the question is does the thrush go away because the horse's immune system can launch a better attack against thrush when given extra copper and zinc or does the thrush go away because the added copper and zinc makes the changes in the horse's foot an unfriendly environment for the growth of thrush?
I'm not sure how those could make changes in the horse's foot to be inhospitable to the fungus/bacteria, but I suspect if that does happen then it's all part of the same deal - body can fight off the buggers that are ALL around. This goes for thrush and rain rot and scratches.

These are the kinds of questions I would want answered before I started giving my horses lots of extra copper and zinc. Too much of anything, including water, can become become an overload and threaten your horse's well being.
Obviously you don't just willy-nilly start throwing cu and zn at them. You need to research your particular situation. My soil (therefore my grass and hay), much like most soil in this area, is WAY high in Iron, which, as mentioned before, inhibits uptake of Cu and Zn. I have personally seen the effects of adding those making scratches and generic "skin crud" go away, never to return (unless I stop supplementing ;)).

But then again I don't feed a fortified grain product, I feed a vit/min supplement which can contain only so much of those things. If I were feeding 10lb a day of a fortified grain product, I might be giving all the extra cu/zn the horses need. But they'd also be blimps, and I just don't feed fortified grains anyway ;)

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's pretty simple: IF the horse has a good, healthy coat, strong hoof walls, good hoof growth, there is obviously no copper/zinc deficiency, even if that same horse has thrush.
My WB gelding had strong feet, a shiny coat, more than ample hoof growth, but every Spring, and sporadically during the Summer, he developed scratches on his white hind socks. Now, most people would just say "well, pink skin, white socks, guess I'll just have to live with it." and buy truckloads of desitin and neosporin ointment and keep the legs slathered. I added cu/zn to his diet, and by the next Spring, no more scratches. Not when I clipped, not when his legs got wet, not when he was in cannon bone high grass, not when anything. As an unexpected side benefit, he also bleached signifcantly less that Summer. That's when I learned that a coat can be "healthy" looking - shiny, sleek, even dappled - and STILL be lacking suffient Cu to keep bleaching down (won't say it eliminates it).

A couple of years ago I stopped the cu, and sure enough, that Summer he bleached terribly again, got spots of scratches, and even got some mild spots of rain rot-like stuff on his shoulder area.

If that same horse has chronic thrush, and is managed well, it is time to look at how the horse is trimmed. You can throw all the supplements and koppertox at a horse with chronic thrush, and you can pick its feet every hour of every day, if it's caused by improper trimming it won't do you any good.
Can't disagree with that! But on the other hand, you can throw the best trimming, environmental management, and Koppertox at the horse 'til the cows come home, but if something in the diet is lacking, you may never resolve the issue.

That really is the point. it takes ALL those things to have truly healthy feet (and bodies). People love to just medicate/apply topicals because it's all they know.

goeslikestink

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:02 PM

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=187975

by born to ride
Are you sure you read his article??
Quote:
I had several pastures within my clientele that produced poor hooves no matter how they were previously shod, and the problems persisted no matter how I trimmed them. The hoof walls were weak and peeling apart in layers. There was no white line integrity and I could not grow well connected walls. The soles were thin and thrush was common. I would show up at 5 weeks to trim the feet and it looked like I should have been there 4 weeks ago. Again, it was easy to blame the excess sugar consumption and no doubt that is still a big issue. But it was hard to ignore the fact that there were other pastures in the same area that supported nice hooves in spite of that same free access to ‘all you can eat” green grass.

Finally I started testing the grass in those problem pastures and found that there was virtually no copper or zinc in the horse’s diet. [Copper supports enzymes that form the strengthening cross-links between collagen and elastin molecules in connective tissue. Deficiencies lead to abnormalities in bone, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, and arterial walls among the most dramatic consequences. In horses, copper deficiency has been linked to uterine artery rupture in mares, a fatal complication of labor. Copper deficiency is known to cause developmental bone disease in foals. From research in other animals we also know that copper deficiency has adverse effects in hair quality. Although it hasn’t been studied in horses, remember that the ingredients and growth mechanisms for hair and the hoof are virtually identical.

born to ride your obviously not taken into account hes talking in general of bad pastures
and since you ask the same thing in the link above

your obviously have problems yourself with your pastures as not clearng weeds and toxcin plants
if the horses are in a pasture that lacks grasses and not enough food then they are going to eat whats in sight including bad weeds and toxic weeds
thus would give the horses the runs and as they are eating low qulaity foodstuff then the horn growth on there feet will become as pete ramseys says

as there nothing in there to help grow a health foot and as hte pasture is a bad enviroment then the horses health including feet then become an issue of which thrush can be a main party to that

lack of worming the horses in the correct manner will also help towards the horses inmune system
as if you over worm or daily worm then the horse will get used to it in his system and have nothing to fight the worms off with so again can cuase violent runs in a horse when over laoded with worm killers
hence why in uk they dont daily worm horses but do it by seasons of the year and cylces of the worms and bots

what you need to do is get an nutritionist from a vets or feed merchant to come in to vailiate your horses needs with a correct diet and decent farrier thats qualfied other than yourself to have a look at your horses feet along with a vet to clear up any secondary infection and to give you the correct worming programme for this time of year

also you need to either take weeds to your vets to have them looked at to see what they are if you dont know
or look them up as poisonous plants in usa or go to your local 4-h club or usa pony club
all weeds are toxic are covered in any equine industry connected to the fei

to us its a basic thing that is paramount along with worms as a thing thats a must to do
in helping to keep healthy horses ie clean paddocks
doesnt just mean picking up pooh but to get rid of any weeds or plants that are harmful to the horses
so i surgest you look up what you have and get rid of them
i can only think that bare paddocks with rough weeds is due to being over grazed or to small for the horses in there and all there is is weeds horses should have a acre of a paddock to himself

unless the horse is laminitic then its a controlled diet and stripe grassing in other words you section a part of your paddock off so the horse doesnt eat to much high protien grass but as you only have weeds then defeats the object the horse will have the squirts and poor horn growth

like i said its how you manage your horses to how healthy they become and i say you as in general

and its not science its common sense

you want good healthy horses feet without thrush then you clean up its baterial infection that lives without oxigen but also loves damp wet conditions or dirty conditions as in pee and pooh not anything to do with zinc or copper unless your paddock are the lower in take of foodstuff is the bare minium as in buying un quality hay or lack of foodstuffs and un healthy paddocks
and i will add probiotics will not help a bad managed paddock in fact it could hinder the horse and give him the runs as the horse hasnt got the correct intake of foodstuffs or imnune system to cope with the over load of toxcin in his body so the only way out is to have the s--ts

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:03 PM

goeslikestink

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:34 PM

What I find IRONIC is the attempt to draw an "ironic correlation" between Koppertox and copper deficiency in the diet. A lot of people use bleach to treat thrush. Now I'm wondering why they don't feed their horses bleach as a suppliment. Could it be that the thrush is the result of a lack of bleach in the diet? :eek:

ha ha tom exactly koppertox is a good thing to use to help the horse when it has thrush
if you look at born to ride other post which i posted as link
i think it will make sense as to why she asking ooh hum twiddle my thumb

Thomas_1

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:57 PM

I don't know what it's like over there but here, it does not seem to be uncommon for horses to be at least a little deficient in those 2 minerals. Not enough to go "wow, give your horse come copper!" But enough that some people are constantly battling skin crud and NQR feet and whatnot.
My issue and first posting on this thread didn't come about because I had issues about the requirement for horse fodder (or pasture land) to contain essential minerals. Neither do I query the fact that some horses get insufficient essential minerals in their diet.

Here pasture has been enclosed, farmed and managed for centuries and that includes managing to ensure that pasture and hay contains essential minerals.

Whether land is actually deficient depends on where in the UK it is and how the land is managed in terms of what is put on it.

Furthermore it seems to me that it's much more common to have land and forage tested for such as essential trace minerals and to manage the land appropriately.

So I thought that every horse owner knew that horses needed copper and zinc in their diet. (though I know in truth that some don't get sufficient) Copper to help with absorption of iron and also to ensure there's no deficiency signs such as anaemia, hair pigment loss, bone and joint disease. Zinc to ensure there's no signs such as scaly skin, poor wound healing and behavioural and skeletal abnormalities.

Indeed molasses is high in copper and it's one of the reasons why it's extensively used in animal feed products and it's why I feed it to my horses. But I know BTR things feeding molasses is akin to feeding arsenic!

What is arse about face or poor understanding or bad usage of an observation is the OP's presumption and as contained in the first posting.

The suggestion that there is a direct correlation between copper and zinc deficiency as a causative factor to thrush is flawed and lacking in evidence. Likewise the suggestion that ensuring there's sufficient copper and zinc cures thrush is a quantum leap of imagination.

I know that BTR struggles with clinical evidence and good case study research but you don't start with a symptom in a small number and then going to find something that might be coincidental.

Well you can....... That is what caused George Bernard Shaw to example that it was eating margarine that gave rise to the population boom in the early 1950's and in his treatise on Damn Lies and Statistics.

BTR doesn't appreciate though that it's called coincidence not science, not clinical research and not even empirical research.

Then she is misrepresenting the study totally. Not even the author claims that lack of copper and zinc causes thrush and further he didn't as is claimed by the poster do the testing and research. He called on an article by someone else!

BTR you never learn! You really shouldn't go reading stuff you don't understand and then misrepresent it as some sage wisdom or advice to all.

Can't say I've ever seen a horse with "rings" around his eyes due to lack of cu or zn, but maybe that's only if they are REALLY deficient, which is not often the case with horses. Here, we aren't talking about a major deficiency, which can cause all SORTS of issues. We're talking about something relatively minor that is the last missing piece of a puzzle. Not uncommon. To be honest, I've seen more in the USA than the UK though. The "rings" are hair pigment loss.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:07 PM

My WB gelding had strong feet, a shiny coat, more than ample hoof growth, but every Spring, and sporadically during the Summer, he developed scratches on his white hind socks. Now, most people would just say "well, pink skin, white socks, guess I'll just have to live with it." and buy truckloads of desitin and neosporin ointment and keep the legs slathered. I added cu/zn to his diet, and by the next Spring, no more scratches. Not when I clipped, not when his legs got wet, not when he was in cannon bone high grass, not when anything. As an unexpected side benefit, he also bleached signifcantly less that Summer. That's when I learned that a coat can be "healthy" looking - shiny, sleek, even dappled - and STILL be lacking suffient Cu to keep bleaching down (won't say it eliminates it).

A couple of years ago I stopped the cu, and sure enough, that Summer he bleached terribly again, got spots of scratches, and even got some mild spots of rain rot-like stuff on his shoulder area.

Can't disagree with that! But on the other hand, you can throw the best trimming, environmental management, and Koppertox at the horse 'til the cows come home, but if something in the diet is lacking, you may never resolve the issue.

That really is the point. it takes ALL those things to have truly healthy feet (and bodies). People love to just medicate/apply topicals because it's all they know.

Learn something new every day ;-)

I agree with your last point however, to return to the thrush issue: The hoof has a self-cleaning mechanism. If that is compromised in any way, thrush can follow. Now, what can compromise this self-cleaning mechanism? A few of the causes: No exercise, lameness (other than what is caused by thrush), imbalances, and indeed, zinc/copper deficiency. So now we're at the point of asking "which came first, the egg or the chicken?" Zinc/copper deficiency creates poor overall hoof health, which in turn compromises the self-cleaning mechanism, resulting in thrush.

Look at the partial quote of Pete's article:

"The hoof walls were weak and peeling apart in layers. There was no white line integrity and I could not grow well connected walls. The soles were thin and thrush was common."

goeslikestink

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:11 PM

:confused: What does "grows about 1/4 of size in a year" mean? I would HOPE that a whole new foot has grown in a year or less.

depends on the horse as how much it grows each year depends lots of things going on with the horse and the management but isaid a 1/4 of the foot as in gerneral not as difinate thing each time one has dhoes or trims then possible a good lenght comes off during the time growth which is about 1/4 of inch or so as it depends on the horse etc etc

Agree - can't expect feet packed with urine-soaked manure to be healthy for too long, regardless of how perfect the diet or trim :)

But how many people have we had just on this board who are looking for the next best topical to get rid rain rot and scratches and make the coat less coarse and rough and more shiny? People DO tend to notice the skin/hair more than the feet, I agree, but not nearly enough think for a second that the issues with the skin/hair are likely dietary in origin

quiet but in this case you was talking about copper and zinc
diffiency against hair growth as to the the horse foot
other common things are mud fever which to you is scratches and rainrot which again is common problem that is dwon and can be down to bad management of the enviroment
as again its easy to get rid off and hygene protocol should be in place

agian if thehorse isnt getting better then you change the enviroment to where it lives
and you change your management to a better one so the horse doesnt get these skin conditions which love moisture

Nobody is saying that you can't prevent and get rid of thrush/fungal issues with proper management. BRT is saying, based on what Ramey is saying that SOMETIMES, perhaps more than people think, especially given the more-than-a-few people who seem to have stock in Thrush Buster or Koppertox, sometimes the issue won't go away until you fix the diet, with the copper and zinc being a large piece of that puzzle.

read the paragraph she has quoted and again i qouted he says in bad pasture

You are in the UK, we are in the US. VERY different climates and soils for the most part. Your area might very well have sufficient Cu and Zn and not be overloaded with Fe.

Again, not disagreeing that proper management is critical for hoof health. But it's not necessarily ONLY proper management that keeps this stuff away.

no but it helps if you mantian your fields and paddocks in the correct manner it can hekp towards preventing illness and bad feet as in the condition
as to where the horses are kept yeah your climate is different no disbute there but
most dont clean the paddocks properly ie pooh for instance this would encourage a worm infestation and a lump of pooh can kill the grass underneath not saying muck spreading saying lumps of pooh all in one isnt good for the grasses which in turn if the horse is eating the very same isnt good for the horse
pasture management should be an utter most thing in keeping healthy horses

RAyers

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:14 PM

Of course, the copper/zinc deficiency could also be created by too much iron intake, which would cancel the absorption of said minerals.

Only if the Fe was in the +2 valence state. Otherwise, no it would not substitute for Cu or Zn. Fe can also have a +3 valence as well.

How does one equate copper napthate (kills bacteria externally) to ionic copper ingested and modified via biologic porcesses? This sounds like unfocused boss rambling to me.

Reed

Peggy

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:21 PM

Only if the Fe was in the +2 valence state. Otherwise, no it would not substitute for Cu or Zn. Fe can also have a +3 valence as well.

How does one equate copper napthate (kills bacteria externally) to ionic copper ingested and modified via biologic porcesses? This sounds like unfocused boss rambling to me.

Reed

I didn't get it either. How would pouring something that contains copper +2 ions on a horse's feet fix an internal deficiency? That would be like rubbing aspirin on your forehead to cure a headache.

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:30 PM

Please BTR, you're not doing anyone a favor - least of all Pete.

As per the section you bolded "and thrush was common" - there are quite a few other problems listed as well, in front of "and...".

.:lol::lol::lol:Why would I want to do Pete Ramey a favor?? :confused: See this is where people like you and I fundamentally differ - when someone posts something like this I think "Hmmm, interesting. Something to keep an eye on".

Not sure if you have noticed but, although hoof tissues differ in design, they are essentially all made up of the same material, so of course it would not "just " affect the frogs. And in reality, thrushy frogs are generally most obvious to horse owners, whereas other signs, the ones also pointed out by Pete Ramey , are often overlooked, because the person is not trained to see them.

It's pretty simple: IF the horse has a good, healthy coat, strong hoof walls, good hoof growth, there is obviously no copper/zinc deficiency, even if that same horse has thrush. If that same horse has chronic thrush, and is managed well, it is time to look at how the horse is trimmed. You can throw all the supplements and koppertox at a horse with chronic thrush, and you can pick its feet every hour of every day, if it's caused by improper trimming it won't do you any good
So, essentially you are implying that Pete Ramey did not trim the horses with the chronic hoof problems in his care correctly?

grayarabpony

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:03 PM

I am curious -- has anyone here had blood tests run that indicates that their horse has toxic levels of iron?

There's a lot of iron in the soil and water on my farm, as in a lot of places in this part of the country, but I don't know how much of it is in a form that the horse can use. Judging from my horses' appearance, not that much. The quality of their feet is good.

Next time the vet comes out I think I'll ask her to run tests on iron, selenium and copper, since she'll be pulling Coggins anyway.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:07 PM

Kaeleer

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:20 PM

Warning : potentially stupid question to follow:

I have a young WB gelding, who has battled with intermittent unsoundness issues for some time. Initial costly consultation with vet included four nerve blocks and a series of x-rays with no clinical finding. Further consult four months later disclosed suspensory injury, which has been treated and is now healed.

He has now sprained his fetlock, following a dressage lesson in a boggy arena.

He always gets a skin irritation in summer. It does not appear to be related to insect bites as he is in a fly sheet most of the day (and all night), and the irritation occurs even when there is no evidence of fly bites. It does not respond to any tropical treatment. I have not yet tried cortizone.

I have not tested him for mineral deficiency as I had not considered it. Reading this thread, I'm wondering if I should - his predisposition to ligament / tendon damage, and the skin irritation makes me wonder.

My other horses don't have these problems, and they are all fed the same forage, hay and grain.

All of my horses get mineral licks in their stables, rather than vitamins in their feed.

Thoughts? Is this just whack-a-doodle stuff, or worth following up?

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:25 PM

IMHO, worth looking into.

Horses are individuals. Some are very efficient at using what they ingest, others are extremely inefficient and need more just to be at the same place.

BTW - Cu and Zn are easy to get - Poly Copper and Poly Zinc from Uckele.

Kaeleer

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:27 PM

I'm in South Africa. I think Uckele is a musical instrument :D

I can ask my local veterinary pharmacy to make it up for me, though.

What are the potential dangers of adding it to his diet (sorry, I'm being lazy about googling info tonight, sleep deprived)

grayarabpony

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:41 PM

JB you ran blood tests right? What did you find?

cosmos mom

Feb. 3, 2009, 03:05 PM

A man sat down on the stoop outside of his house every day after work in the hot summer to enjoy a nice cold Budweiser. After a week, he noticed that he had a nasty sunburn on his face. The logical conclusion is that Budweiser causes sunburn, right? :lol:

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 03:05 PM

:lol::lol::lol:Why would I want to do Pete Ramey a favor?? :confused: See this is where people like you and I fundamentally differ - when someone posts something like this I think "Hmmm, interesting. Something to keep an eye on".

Not sure if you have noticed but, although hoof tissues differ in design, they are essentially all made up of the same material, so of course it would not "just " affect the frogs. And in reality, thrushy frogs are generally most obvious to horse owners, whereas other signs, the ones also pointed out by Pete Ramey , are often overlooked, because the person is not trained to see them.

So, essentially you are implying that Pete Ramey did not trim the horses with the chronic hoof problems in his care correctly?

No BTR: where people like you and I fundamentally differ is in the fact that you take parts of 2 quotes, rip them out of context, and draw a fundamentally wrong conclusion, topping it off with "crediting" the author. Whereas I just never developed that "skill".

Of course it is entirely possible that you just have a reading comprehension problem, looking at the last paragraph of your post. Allow me to - again - quote Pete Ramey:

"The hoof walls were weak and peeling apart in layers. There was no white line integrity and I could not grow well connected walls. The soles were thin and thrush was common." Now, try to ignore the part in italics, but do read all in front of it. Could it possibly be that the combination of all the problems he is listing resulted in a compromised self-cleaning mechanism?

Now, looking at your thread's title: Are you implying that we can let our horses lick a board treated with a preservative in order to avoid thrush? It's easier than I thought...taking things out of context.

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 03:19 PM

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:05 PM

That is a question only BTR can answer.
You guys really cannot come up with your own answers? :lol::lol:

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:15 PM

No BTR: where people like you and I fundamentally differ is in the fact that you take parts of 2 quotes, rip them out of context, and draw a fundamentally wrong conclusion, topping it off with "crediting" the author. Whereas I just never developed that "skill".

Of course it is entirely possible that you just have a reading comprehension problem, looking at the last paragraph of your post. Allow me to - again - quote Pete Ramey:

"The hoof walls were weak and peeling apart in layers. There was no white line integrity and I could not grow well connected walls. The soles were thin and thrush was common." Now, try to ignore the part in italics, but do read all in front of it. Could it possibly be that the combination of all the problems he is listing resulted in a compromised self-cleaning mechanism?

Now, looking at your thread's title: Are you implying that we can let our horses lick a board treated with a preservative in order to avoid thrush? It's easier than I thought...taking things out of context.
Your are simply being rude and ignorant. Perhaps, just perhaps a lack of copper (and zinc) as a trace mineral internally makes the tissues weaker and more susceptible to developing thrush, srcatches, rainrot, as many others here have stated - has nothing to do with a "self cleaning mechanism" and more with weakness of the cells, perhaps making them more prone to infection. Not to mention the hooves with poor self cleaning mechanisms that have none of the above, even though they live in a wet environment.

Where's your reading comprehension?? Why would you even reach the conclusion that letting a horse lick some copper would solve a possible internal copper deficiency they might have?? :confused: Wasn't my wink smiley obvious enough to see I wasn't literal about what I wrote and that it is just and interesting coincidence??

goeslikestink

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:16 PM

luvmywalkers

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:41 PM

Your are simply being rude and ignorant. Perhaps, just perhaps a lack of copper (and zinc) as a trace mineral internally makes the tissues weaker and more susceptible to developing thrush, srcatches, rainrot, as many others here have stated - has nothing to do with a "self cleaning mechanism" and more with weakness of the cells, perhaps making them more prone to infection. Not to mention the hooves with poor self cleaning mechanisms that have none of the above, even though they live in a wet environment.

Where's your reading comprehension?? Why would you even reach the conclusion that letting a horse lick some copper would solve a possible internal copper deficiency they might have?? :confused: Wasn't my wink smiley obvious enough to see I wasn't literal about what I wrote and that it is just and interesting coincidence??

I'll ignore the first sentence of the first paragraph. The remainder of the first paragraph makes it very obvious that you do not have a clue as to what this self-cleaning mechanism is.

As for my reading comprehension: I even stated - without smileys - that I took your words out of context, and yet, you still didn't get that. Nuff said.

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:49 PM

Oh for heaven's sake, even *I* could tell that BTR was having fun about the "irony" part.

I don't always agree with what BTR says, or how she says it, but I think in much of this thread some of you are just jumping on her because she's BTR.

It's a VALID POINT that nutrition plays a vital role in hoof health. Cu and Zn are KNOWN components of that.

RAyers

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:56 PM

...
Wasn't my wink smiley obvious enough to see I wasn't literal about what I wrote and that it is just and interesting coincidence??

In that case almost everything is a coincidence.

Cases in point:

I saw a horse come into the hospital with a severe GI torsion just a few days after getting shoes. That was the only thing different the owner said.

I have seen 100s of horses get colic and the one thing in common was they all ingested dihydrogen oxides.

My car did not start quickly but the radiator cap was loose.

In my opinion, the fact it is BTR has little to do with anything. The function of copper and zinc go way beyond hood, hair and horn, so it still makes no sense in the comparison, nor in Pete Ramey's analysis. What does Koopertox have to do with anything?

Reed

Thomas_1

Feb. 4, 2009, 05:01 AM

I am so proud to have the same first name as Thomas_1.

From the eloquence of his posting, it should be easy to see that those with the first name "Thomas" are indeed blessed as he is to have such a wonderful first name. :yes:

I'm sure that Mr. Stovall agrees.

That we share the same name is not just coincidence, but a fact that can be proven with science.

I didn't see your post till after I'd done mine. You said it so much more succinctly. TomS would have done it with his own brand of smack between the eyes humourous put down and incisive wit.

BornToRide would however be further espousing the Doubting Thomas Theory and laying claim that the name Thomas is just evidence of having a closed mind and a failure to understand modern and alternative methods. Obviously everyone called Thomas is destined to disagree with her no matter what.

Because of course it couldn't possibly for any other reason other than what she has predetermined. ;):winkgrin::yes:;):winkgrin::)

(How many winks do I have to put so it's not personal?)