Daily Dewormer and Panacur Power packs??

[ladipus]

I give my horses Strongid C2X Daily Dewormer and i paste deworm w/ Equimax(Ivermectin/Praziquantel) every 6 months....do daily dewormer users still do panacur power packs? is it necessary?

[snopbobil]

Why would you give daily wormer and still think you needed other wormers?

[EqTrainer]

Daily dewormer does not protect against encysted strongyles. The OP is correct; 2x a year w/Equimax is what is *recommended* but for some strange reason the mfg. forgot to mention either Quest or a Powerpack would be needed for encysted strongyles.

OP: Yes, you do need to do a PP. Good for you for thinking for yourself! While you are at it, you might want to check out all the other worms daily dewormer does not deal with.

[JB]

Why would you give daily wormer and still think you needed other wormers?

Because at the very least, the DWs to not address bots ;) Need ivermectin for that.

And, as ET said, if there were encysted larva when the DW was started, the DW doesn't get them either.

[ladipus]

Daily dewormer does not protect against encysted strongyles. The OP is correct; 2x a year w/Equimax is what is *recommended* but for some strange reason the mfg. forgot to mention either Quest or a Powerpack would be needed for encysted strongyles.

OP: Yes, you do need to do a PP. Good for you for thinking for yourself! While you are at it, you might want to check out all the other worms daily dewormer does not deal with.

I've given daily dewormer b/c my horses are on small acrerage,and i've felt that they generally look better too when on dd-and i also like the fact that it supposedly lessens the chances of colic...i do the recommended equimax twice/year,and i'll do an extra ivermectin if i notice bot eggs...all my horses are healthy and look great and are in good weight but i just wondered if i still needed to give a panacur power pack as its highly recommended as a part of rotational deworming,and knowing that it targets certain worms that everything else doesn't cover

[lemonpoppy]

I'm trying to figure out a worming schedule for my horse that is similar to EqTrainers but uses a daily dewormer (he's on the preventicare program).

This is what I'm thinking:

Strongid daily wormer
Panacur Powerpack now
Anthelicide EQ two weeks from now
Equimax (but when? In six to eight weeks? Does being on the daily change this? I'm having so much trouble figuring out the timing!)

Then I'd repeat this for the rest of the year, but again I really can't figure out how to space the drugs out.

Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

If anyone has any good rescources (book, articles, etc) for information about worming / parasites in general I'd love to hear those too!

ETA: To throw a wrench into the situation, I also think my horse might have some mild GI / ulcer issues. He recently started trying to nip when I groom his belly. The vet is coming to check it out later this week, but I'd still love to get info about the worming, and how worming might help or hurt.

[jaimebaker]

Why would you give daily wormer and still think you needed other wormers?

All daily dewormers will actually say on the label that you still need to use ivermectin twice a year. For tapes you would switch one of those ivermectin doses to praziquantel/ivermectin combo (Equimax).

So even if you aren't targeting encysted strongyles (which can only be dealt with by Powerpak or Quest) you still have to use ivermectin twice a year with a daily.

[Gry2Yng]

I use a DW, twice a year with ivermec, (spring and fall) once a year with a powerpac (usually December). Also always a good idea to do a fecal count. They are cheep and easy.

[luvmywalkers]

I give my horses Strongid C2X Daily Dewormer and i paste deworm w/ Equimax(Ivermectin/Praziquantel) every 6 months....do daily dewormer users still do panacur power packs? is it necessary?

I've used the daily for years, with 2x year Equimax. Never had a need for PP. If you're not sure, talk to your vet.

[BornToRide]

I would not use daily wormer. I think this is part of the reason why we are seeing more and more parasite resistance! Same principle as antibiotic overuse and misuse.

[luvmywalkers]

I would not use daily wormer. I think this is part of the reason why we are seeing more and more parasite resistance! Same principle as antibiotic overuse and misuse.

None of my horses show any resistance. The DW is and has been doing what it is supposed to do: Keep the parasite burden at a manageable level, and with twice a year Ivermectrin (Equimax) my horses fecals tell me that none of them have developed a resistance to Ivermectrin.

[Fairview Horse Center]

None of my horses show any resistance. The DW is and has been doing what it is supposed to do: Keep the parasite burden at a manageable level, and with twice a year Ivermectrin (Equimax) my horses fecals tell me that none of them have developed a resistance to Ivermectrin.

We did Strongid c 2x and Ivermectin 2x yearly. We were suspicious of a feew horses, so did a fecal. High egg counts. Pfiser then PAID for our barn fecals to be overnighted to Tech, and quantitive tests done. 1/3 of our horses ranged from 800 to 2900 eggs per gram! 1/3 were between 200 and 800. The final 1/3 was below 200.

After that, we had several vets including ones from the Equine Hospital say that it should not be used long term, but maybe only for 3 months for a specific problem.

This was about 10 years ago.

Recent studies show over 90 of the small strongyles in the US are resistant to Panacur, and over 50% of them are resistant to Strongid.

PLEASE sign up for a free membership on thehorse.com Make sure you are logged in, then click on this link. It is a webinar on deworming entitled A Mandate for Change. We are deworming too much in this country, and causing resistance. http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=183

You need to see how resistant your worms are to the drugs by running fecals, then deworming. Wait 2 weeks, and redo the fecals (quantitive). See what numbers have been lowered to figure the percentage of resistance on your farm to that product. You also need to know what horses you have that are naturally, genetically resistant to worms.

[luvmywalkers]

We did Strongid c 2x and Ivermectin 2x yearly. We were suspicious of a feew horses, so did a fecal. High egg counts. Pfiser then PAID for our barn fecals to be overnighted to Tech, and quantitive tests done. 1/3 of our horses ranged from 800 to 2900 eggs per gram! 1/3 were between 200 and 800. The final 1/3 was below 200.

After that, we had several vets including ones from the Equine Hospital say that it should not be used long term, but maybe only for 3 months for a specific problem.

This was about 10 years ago.

Recent studies show over 90 of the small strongyles in the US are resistant to Panacur, and over 50% of them are resistant to Strongid.

PLEASE sign up for a free membership on thehorse.com Make sure you are logged in, then click on this link. It is a webinar on deworming entitled A Mandate for Change. We are deworming too much in this country, and causing resistance. http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=183

You need to see how resistant your worms are to the drugs by running fecals, then deworming. Wait 2 weeks, and redo the fecals (quantitive). See what numbers have been lowered to figure the percentage of resistance on your farm to that product. You also need to know what horses you have that are naturally, genetically resistant to worms.

Part of my answer in another topic on the subject of DW:

I have a fecal done on 1/2 of my horses every year - so, in a 2-year cycle all are covered.

In February I had fecals done on a 31-year old who's been on the DW the longest, EC 0. 13-year old mare (6 yrs on DW) EC 1, her 1-year old filly EC 6, 2-year old colt EC 12.

14 days after administering Equimax all 4 had EC 0.

For as long as I've been using DW, these results have been typical for all my horses.

I have NEVER used a powerpack. I only use Panacur on a 30-day old foal. Obviously, considering the ECs, my horses' parasites don't have a resistance to Strongid, nor do they have a resistance to Ivermectrin.

[JB]

None of my horses show any resistance. The DW is and has been doing what it is supposed to do: Keep the parasite burden at a manageable level, and with twice a year Ivermectrin (Equimax) my horses fecals tell me that none of them have developed a resistance to Ivermectrin.

That does not mean there isn't resistance elsewhere. There is. It's been proven. It's also strongly intimated that the prevalent use of the DW - pyrantel tartrate - was part of the problem of the resistance we now have to pyrantel pamoate.

[Claudius]

On the tube it showed a 1000 (etc.) mark for a larvicidal dose....I gave this five times for a yearling. Was that right? or should I have given the entire syringe, each of the five days???

[luvmywalkers]

That does not mean there isn't resistance elsewhere. There is. It's been proven. It's also strongly intimated that the prevalent use of the DW - pyrantel tartrate - was part of the problem of the resistance we now have to pyrantel pamoate.

In an older topic on this same subject, JB linked a study - intention was to show that DW was ineffective. Unfortunately, it showed that abuse of pamoate (double dose for tapeworms) rendered the DW ineffective. Second part of the study showed also that when the pyrantel cycle was broken, the DW worked fine.

As for resistance: The biggest scare nowadays is the development of resistance to ivermectrin. Fortunately for my horses, ivermectrin still works just fine here.

[JB]

On the tube it showed a 1000 (etc.) mark for a larvicidal dose....I gave this five times for a yearling. Was that right? or should I have given the entire syringe, each of the five days???

For foals/yearlings, you want to give a double dose (assuming you're talking about fenbendazole?) for one day in order to target ascarids.

If you were aiming for a "power pack", that is a double dose of fenbendazole each day for 5 days in a row.

[Fairview Horse Center]

14 days after administering Equimax all 4 had EC 0.
...Obviously, considering the ECs, my horses' parasites don't have a resistance to Strongid, nor do they have a resistance to Ivermectrin.

You did fecals 14 days after the Equimax. There is not a known strongyle resistance to that, and that is what you have proven. They may be 100% resistant to the Strongid. Do your fecals when they have only been on the Strongid for months, not after you just cleaned them out with ivermectin.

Again, please watch the video.

[JB]

You did fecals 14 days after the Equimax. There is not a known strongyle resistance to that, and that is what you have proven. They may be 100% resistant to the Strongid. Do your fecals when they have only been on the Strongid for months, not after you just cleaned them out with ivermectin.

Again, please watch the video.
Oh yeah, man, I missed that, good catch!

luvmywalkers, honest question here - why did you think that a clean count 14 days after an ivermectin/praziquantel dosing had *any* bearing on the effectiveness of pyrantel tartrate? :confused::confused:

I'm not at all surprised you had a clean count in that situation. You used a still-effective (for things in adult horses) broad-spectrum chemical, and a tapeworm chemical. The horse SHOULD be clean at that point, at least for anything you can reliably test for.

[lstevenson]

Every horse I've ever known that was on the daily wormer for a long time tested full of worms from resistance. I personally would never use a daily wormer.

[JB]

In an older topic on this same subject, JB linked a study - intention was to show that DW was ineffective. Unfortunately, it showed that abuse of pamoate (double dose for tapeworms) rendered the DW ineffective. Second part of the study showed also that when the pyrantel cycle was broken, the DW worked fine.
That would be the same JB here ;) Yes, I had it backwards as to which was causing which problem.

As for resistance: The biggest scare nowadays is the development of resistance to ivermectrin. Fortunately for my horses, ivermectrin still works just fine here.
Ivermectin still works just fine for all horses with the following exceptions:
- not-new resistance of ascarids, which is why foals should be double dosed with fenbendazole to target those and NOT rely on ivermectin to get them
- a more recent issue of a 4 week ERP of strongyles, as opposed to 8 weeks. Still 100% effective when dosed, but the ERP has shortened on some farms. That's a Big Fat Hairy Deal and means, more now than ever, that ivermectin shouldn't just be used willy nilly.

[Gry2Yng]

Every horse I've ever known that was on the daily wormer for a long time tested full of worms from resistance. I personally would never use a daily wormer.

Well, you don't know mine, but I do a fecal every winter and mine test clean. The oldest has been on a daily wormer for over 9 years. He has had a clean fecal even when other horses in the barn have not. He gets Equimax (reaction to Zimect Gold) spring and fall and a pp once a year, right after the fecal.

Can someone translate the JB study or provide me with a link. My horses are doing great, but I like to be informed and I have no interest in creating resistant strains. Sorry for being a bit thick, could be the hour.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Your horse may very well be one of those 1/3 that are genetically resistant to worms. Their counts stay very low even with NO deworming. Was your fecal a quantitive or qualitive fecal? You need to be doing quantitive fecals, not the "high", "moderate", "low", or "none seen" kind of fecals.

The recomendation to find out whether a horse is naturally resistant is done when the horse is due, or over due for deworming. 30 + days after strongid, or panacur, 60+ days after ivermectin, 90+ days after quest.

Here is the video link. Log into thehorse.com (free account) then click on the link
http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=183

It is just a bit over an hour of clear information about deworming. Less time than most spend on the internet posting. The message is clear that we need to change the way we deworm, and the way we think about worms.

[lstevenson]

Well, you don't know mine, but I do a fecal every winter and mine test clean. The oldest has been on a daily wormer for over 9 years. He has had a clean fecal even when other horses in the barn have not. He gets Equimax (reaction to Zimect Gold) spring and fall and a pp once a year, right after the fecal.


That's great, but don't forget you can have a clean fecal and have the horse still be full of worms. Not saying that yours are.... but that fecals can be misleading. A positive is definitely positive, but a negative can be that the horse has no worms, or that the horse has worms but there weren't any in that particular sample.

[luvmywalkers]

Oh yeah, man, I missed that, good catch!

luvmywalkers, honest question here - why did you think that a clean count 14 days after an ivermectin/praziquantel dosing had *any* bearing on the effectiveness of pyrantel tartrate? :confused::confused:

I'm not at all surprised you had a clean count in that situation. You used a still-effective (for things in adult horses) broad-spectrum chemical, and a tapeworm chemical. The horse SHOULD be clean at that point, at least for anything you can reliably test for.

Err...you seem to misunderstand. The consistent low egg count before the bi-yearly ivermectrin shows that the DW is still doing what it is supposed to do: keep parasite burden at a manageable level. The consistent 0 egg count 14 days after the Equimax shows that there is not yet a resistance to ivermectin. This according to my vet.

There have been various reports from all over the world, suggesting that resistance to ivermectrin may be developing - hence me mentioning it.

My herd consists of 9 horses, usually split into 3 groups, with one of them roaming amongst all 3 groups. Ages vary from 1 year to 31 year old. Foals were given Panacur at 30 days, and put on the DW as soon as they started eating some grain which has been (with my foals) within the following month. From there on they are on the same schedule as the rest of the herd. My oldest foal is now 3 years old, and you'd be hard pressed to find a healthier horse - outside of my herd, that is.

[luvmywalkers]

You did fecals 14 days after the Equimax. There is not a known strongyle resistance to that, and that is what you have proven. They may be 100% resistant to the Strongid. Do your fecals when they have only been on the Strongid for months, not after you just cleaned them out with ivermectin.

Again, please watch the video.

For your convenience, here's the rest of my post...the part you didn't quote:
In February I had fecals done on a 31-year old who's been on the DW the longest, EC 0. 13-year old mare (6 yrs on DW) EC 1, her 1-year old filly EC 6, 2-year old colt EC 12.
14 days after administering Equimax all 4 had EC 0.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have a fecal done on 1/2 of my horses every year - so, in a 2-year cycle all are covered.

In February I had fecals done on a 31-year old who's been on the DW the longest, EC 0. 13-year old mare (6 yrs on DW) EC 1, her 1-year old filly EC 6, 2-year old colt EC 12.

14 days after administering Equimax all 4 had EC 0.

For as long as I've been using DW, these results have been typical for all my horses.

Again, you are doing fecals 14 days AFTER ivermectin. That tells you NOTHING about the DW. Only that the ivermectin cleans them out.

[luvmywalkers]

Again, you are doing fecals 14 days AFTER ivermectin. That tells you NOTHING about the DW. Only that the ivermectin cleans them out.

Correct, that part doesn't. The low egg count in the fecals taken just before the administration of ivermectrin does-as explained in that part of my post that was in bold type.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Sorry, your post indicated you did them on each horse, once every 2 years, 14 days after ivermectin.

[grayarabpony]

Her post didn't indicate that at all.

[Fairview Horse Center]

um, are we reading the same post?

I have a fecal done on 1/2 of my horses every year - so, in a 2-year cycle all are covered.

[JB]

Fairview, I think I can decipher the post correctly now:

In February I had fecals done on a 31-year old who's been on the DW the longest, EC 0. 13-year old mare (6 yrs on DW) EC 1, her 1-year old filly EC 6, 2-year old colt EC 12.Means this was done before the equimax - note that some horses had a non-0 count

14 days after administering Equimax all 4 had EC 0.All horses were down to 0 after Equimax (as is expected, it should not have been expected any other way)

[Fairview Horse Center]

So she actually has 2 fecals done on the same half of her horses each year?

[JB]

That's how I read it. I think :lol: So not "a fecal", but "a fecal to check the efficacy of the DW" and "a fecal to check the efficacy of the ivermectin"

[grayarabpony]

um, are we reading the same post?

Yes, I read the whole post. It's in English and decipherable to me.

[luvmywalkers]

So she actually has 2 fecals done on the same half of her horses each year?

No dear, next spring the horses that didn't get a fecal this spring will be done.

Just for the record: "A" fecal - when correctly done - should always be "before and after". How else would you know what is working or not?

[JB]

No dear, next spring the horses that didn't get a fecal this spring will be done.
Right, so 1/2 your horses got 2 fecals this year. The other half will get 2 fecals next year.

Just for the record: "A" fecal - when correctly done - should always be "before and after". How else would you know what is working or not?
"A" fecal is one fecal. You're right, you do need to do one before and after, and that's 2 fecals ;)

[Fairview Horse Center]

:lol: :lol: I guess fecals just became like pants. Maybe I can convince the Ag Dept that I already paid for "a fecal", and the 2nd one is included. :cool:

[luvmywalkers]

You're out of luck there...I paid for 8 fecals this spring. In order to not confuse anyone: 4 horses x 2 fecals. Which should have been obvious when reading the whole post, as opposed to ripping it apart.

Now I'm waiting to see who comes up with: "Whoa! She has 9 horses, does 1/2 of them, ended up with fecals on 4..."

[grayarabpony]

ANYWAY, the egg counts do show that Strongid C is effective on luvmywalkers' farm....

[luvmywalkers]

ANYWAY, the egg counts do show that Strongid C is effective on luvmywalkers' farm....

Thank you! :winkgrin:

[lstevenson]

ANYWAY, the egg counts do show that Strongid C is effective on luvmywalkers' farm....


Oy vey, the same arguement on two consecutive threads. No, negative fecals are NOT absolute proof that the horses do not have worms. A negative fecal means there was nothing in that sample, not that there are no worms in the horse.

See the other thread for my story, I'm not going to re-type it.

[Gry2Yng]

Oy vey, the same arguement on two consecutive threads. No, negative fecals are NOT absolute proof that the horses do not have worms. A negative fecal means there was nothing in that sample, not that there are no worms in the horse.

See the other thread for my story, I'm not going to re-type it.

Other than necropsy, what other method than a fecal count do we have?

[grayarabpony]

Oy vey, the same arguement on two consecutive threads. No, negative fecals are NOT absolute proof that the horses do not have worms. A negative fecal means there was nothing in that sample, not that there are no worms in the horse.

See the other thread for my story, I'm not going to re-type it.

Yes, I saw that story. The horse probably had tapes, which rarely show on fecals, and which a normal daily dose of Strongid C is not effective against.

It's unlikely that a horse carrying a high load of parasites other than tapes is going to actually have several negative fecals.

[JB]

Other than necropsy, what other method than a fecal count do we have?

Very very little. I think there are some parasites that will cause "something" to appear in the blood, but if that's the case, the parasites are few, and the test(s) are expensive.

So, realistically, a FEC is all you have. The point is that a 0/low count is only saying that's what you got in that sample from that horse that day.

And, FYI, it's been stated many times by various professionals, easy to find in the article that I posted a new thread about yesterday, that you really *do not* want to aim for a zero count. Why? Because having a low count actually stimulates the immune system and you have a healthier horse, not only overall, but one who's better able to deal with a larger load if the time comes.

I feel very, very sorry for horses who have been on a DW for so long, assuming it's working correctly for them to begin with, if they every come off and are exposed to what we consider a normal encounter with parasites.

[lstevenson]

Yes, I saw that story. The horse probably had tapes, which rarely show on fecals, and which a normal daily dose of Strongid C is not effective against.

It's unlikely that a horse carrying a high load of parasites other than tapes is going to actually have several negative fecals.


No it was strongyles.

[grayarabpony]

I think Power Pack is a good idea, and do that with my horses, using the liquid dewormer in the feed.

No method will cover your horse completely. As soon as the dewormer is cleared out of the system, the horse can pick up more parasites, which can cause damage.

You have vets and scientists saying on one hand, be conservative with using wormers. On the other hand you don't want to let parasites damage your horses, which is a very real possibility if you travel with your horse or don't have a closed herd.

So I bought a microscope and have started doing egg counts. I wouldn't be surprised if I still end up with an aggressive deworming program, but I feel like I don't have enough information otherwise. It's heaven on the farm for parasites, as moisture levels are relatively high here, even during the summer.

So, while I do agree with doing Power Packs (especially in early spring), if someone is doing egg checks and getting consistent results, they are probably on the right track. Especially with a closed herd.

[luvmywalkers]

I feel very, very sorry for horses who have been on a DW for so long, assuming it's working correctly for them to begin with, if they every come off and are exposed to what we consider a normal encounter with parasites.

My horses are still exposed to parasites. After all, the goal of DW is to keep the parasite burden at a low, manageable level. Having a low level allows their immune system to fully develop.

Horses coming off the DW shouldn't have a problem adapting to any worming program, as long as pyrantel pamoate is NOT the start of this new program.

[luvmywalkers]

Oy vey, the same arguement on two consecutive threads. No, negative fecals are NOT absolute proof that the horses do not have worms. A negative fecal means there was nothing in that sample, not that there are no worms in the horse.

See the other thread for my story, I'm not going to re-type it.

Since you cannot go less then 0 when it comes to egg count, an egg count of 0 would be negative - which could be accurate, as in 2 weeks after ivermectrin.

Having an egg count of 12 is not negative, and indicates that the horse has a low parasite burden (before administering a wormer).

[luvmywalkers]

Other than necropsy, what other method than a fecal count do we have?

Nothing really, other than observation. Meaning, if a horse is colicky and you can't pinpoint causes such as stress, injuries, feed. Chronic diarrhea, lethargy, cruddy coat. Additionally, in foals you could see stunted growth, not developing well.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The expert researchers are telling us we have to CHANGE the way we think about worms, and deworming. PLEASE spend the time to view the webinar I previously posted.

[Gry2Yng]

Wanted to post an update on my horses, just to keep the discussion going. After reading this and a few other threads, I decided to rework my worming program. In the past my horses got daily wormer, ivermectin (Zimect Gold) in spring and fall. (And YES, last spring I ran into the infamous swollen lip with the gold). Horses got a power pack in the winter.

I did FEC every fall, but I can't say I did them correctly based on the information from this thread. So...

I decided to take the horses off the daily. I took one sample for each horse for three days and put them in the car for the vet. Emergency occurs, samples sit in the hot car for WAY too long. No good. Horses have already been off wormer for 3-5 days now. So, I took clean samples for one day, refrigerated. Dropped off at vet.

Counts came back. Older horse who has been on daily for almost 10 years came back negative. (Since 2004, his sample has ALWAYS come back negative, but like I said, my methods may not have been correct.) 4 yo, I have owned for 10 months came back with heavy load of strongyles. Gave double dose of ivermect. Will sample again in two weeks.

I also gave the older guy a double dose as he has had some minor skin issues and I thought I might get the NTW which wouldn't be in the FEC.

Thoughts from the worming experts are appreciated.

[JB]

Thanks for the update!

Remember that your older horse may also have a high immunity to parasites, and he might have come back clean even on no dewormer at all, or just once yearly ivermectin or something. Some horses really are like that. Others just have so little immune response to them that they need very regular chemical assistance.

You're right that NTWs wouldn't have shown up in any FECs. The DW also would not have taken care of them. If you get any reaction from that dd'ing of the ivermectin, be sure to post that on the NTW thread :D

[EqTrainer]

Something that I would feel remiss if I did not point out is that parasites are in horses in *other places then the digestive tract* and all the new research (and most of the old) focuses only on parasites inside the digestive tract.

Parasites inside of eyeballs? Yes. Parasites inside of spinal columns? Yes. Parasites in the nuchal ligament? Yes. Really, we cannot just think about their guts.

[onthebit]

I have to say I spend way too much time thinking about worms. I was having a long discussion with my livestock vet (not my horse vet) about de-worming my two pet fainting goats. She was talking about the incredible problem in goats with resistance to wormer. I am not going to get this 100% right but apparently it somehow became the fad about 20 years ago to double dose your goats with ivermectin to de-worm them. I don't remember how/why this started even though she explained it to me.

Fast forward to today and there is a significant problem in managing parasites in goats. Because everyone decided that DD the ivermectin was the way to go there is now a big resistance problem in goats to even DD ivermectin, which is by far the most effective wormer for goats. She said that goats now must be managed through rotational grazing and other practices to try and manage parasite loads. She said that it is now accepted to a point that people are going to lose goats (as in they will die) because of the resistance problem and there is nothing new to combat it with. She also said that she has never seen a clean fecal in a goat, and that you should not worm your goats by fecals. That if the goat's fecal is loaded with parasites but the goat meets certain critera in regards to weight, coat, tissue around the eyes, etc. that they recommend not de-worming them. On the other hand she might see a really low fecal count on a goat that does not meet the guidelines of these criteria and she would recommend de-worming them.

So I guess my long, rambling point is that we've already caused lots of resistance in horses with daily wormers. I am not a fan of daily worming simply because of the resistance issues it has created. Are we next going to do it if double dosing of certain classes of wormers becomes commonplace? It is a bit of a catch-22. If your horse has parasites, NTW or whatever you need to get rid of them. But maybe it isn't something we should be doing as just part of a routine? Do we want to head down the path that the goats went on with DD ivermectin?

These are some thoughts to ponder. I have thought about it a lot and don't know what my 'final answer' is. Curious as to the thoughs of others.

[JB]

I hope nobody has taken it on themselves to just start dd'ing with ivermectin "just because" :eek:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Does anyone have information on the chemical make-up, or who manufactured Direx TF Suspension? This was a common dewormer used in the 70's for tubing, but I guess no longer available since pastes became the wormer of choice. If a different classification, that may be something to go back to with a resistance problem.

Direx was a dewormer that some vets used very successfully, and safely. Other vets seemed to always have issues. Piperazine is another old type dewormer.

[stoicfish]

Question …I live in Alberta, and I cannot find Strongid locally. Is there a reason for this? Is it because of the 5 months of below 0C (32 F) temps therefore not needing to alternate? Have Panacur and the Ivermectin, so what would be a program for my area? (don’t stress, have one, just comparing)

[onthebit]

I hope nobody has taken it on themselves to just start dd'ing with ivermectin "just because" :eek:

I haven't done a search but don't several people on this board say that they DD almost every de-wormer administered as a matter of routine?

[Gry2Yng]

This is the first time I have done a double, and I certainly don't intend to do it every time, but I don't understand why DD would create resistance. Wouldn't it be more likely the lack of rotation that created the resistance in the goats. I was actually thinking about this as I fell asleep, so someone wiser please help.

[FatPalomino]

So I guess my long, rambling point is that we've already caused lots of resistance in horses with daily wormers.
Change Daily to ALL.

Goats have historically been wormed inappropriately (overdose/underdose/not when needed) and without rotation.

I've read studies showing if you take one drug (I think they used ivermectrin), in which parasites are resistant to, out of the mix, the parasites will eventually become susceptible to it again. I'd have to dig that one up on the journal base if anyone is interested.

FWIW, I spoke with 2 of the leading researchers on goat resistance (including the fellow who created the FAMACHA test) on daily dosing wormer on horses.
They both agreed it would be a good thing to do on our farm, with a closed herd.
Strongyles are one of the most dangerous parasites for horses. Using Strongid C should eliminate or greatly decrease our strongyle burden. Yes, Strongid C isn't a magic wormer and doesn't affect all parasites. Here's the ones we hope it's effective for:
http://www.strongidc2x.com/default.aspx?sec=Parasite%20Threat

Hence the need to deworm 2x a year with paste. In the expert's opinion, it's better than worming 6 times a year with paste rather blindly.

The problem with fecals is we don't find everything (tapes are the first to come to mind). A CBC is cheap and can help (a high eosinophil count is suggestive of parasites).

For fun, I'll try to get fecals from all my horses today and see how they come back. They've been on Strongid C daily for over a year, and honestly, they look and feel wonderful.

[JB]

Does anyone have information on the chemical make-up, or who manufactured Direx TF Suspension? This was a common dewormer used in the 70's for tubing, but I guess no longer available since pastes became the wormer of choice. If a different classification, that may be something to go back to with a resistance problem.

Direx was a dewormer that some vets used very successfully, and safely. Other vets seemed to always have issues. Piperazine is another old type dewormer.
I haven't heard of Direx, but do know that piperazine did fall out of favor years ago. I think it was never (re)formulated to be used with pastes, but could be mis-remembering

Question …I live in Alberta, and I cannot find Strongid locally. Is there a reason for this? Is it because of the 5 months of below 0C (32 F) temps therefore not needing to alternate? Have Panacur and the Ivermectin, so what would be a program for my area? (don’t stress, have one, just comparing)
It's possible, I guess there is some regulation there about the sale of pyrantel pamoate, but can't say for sure. I can't imagine your weather makes it not worth having, but still worth having the fenbendazole, since they both have the same resistance issues.

I haven't done a search but don't several people on this board say that they DD almost every de-wormer administered as a matter of routine?
I dunno, are there? :confused: I know some will just use 2 full tubes to dose the 1400lb+ horse, where 1 tube isn't enough, and keeping 1/3-1/2 of a partial tube isn't worth it. That leaves room for error in weight calculations, allows for some dribble, etc.

I've read studies showing if you take one drug (I think they used ivermectrin), in which parasites are resistant to, out of the mix, the parasites will eventually become susceptible to it again. I'd have to dig that one up on the journal base if anyone is interested.
I've read it too, and of course it makes sense. Whether reality matches theory is the next question - is assumes that the parasites would genetically mutate to become susceptible again to the chemical, and I don't know that you can guarantee that. It sure would be nice to try though!

FWIW, I spoke with 2 of the leading researchers on goat resistance (including the fellow who created the FAMACHA test) on daily dosing wormer on horses.
They both agreed it would be a good thing to do on our farm, with a closed herd.
Strongyles are one of the most dangerous parasites for horses. Using Strongid C should eliminate or greatly decrease our strongyle burden. Yes, Strongid C isn't a magic wormer and doesn't affect all parasites.
Do the goat experts know anything about horse parasites? :confused:

You're right that the DW (pyrantel tartrate) doesn't address all parasites, but why potentially add to the resistance issue? I hear more and more, here and there, horses who've been on the DW for several years "suddenly" testing as heavily infested with strongyles.

Here's the ones we hope it's effective for:
http://www.strongidc2x.com/default.aspx?sec=Parasite%20Threat

Remember, that's a marketing ploy, and the effects of the before/after can easily be had with "normal" deworming ;)

Hence the need to deworm 2x a year with paste. In the expert's opinion, it's better than worming 6 times a year with paste rather blindly.
In who's "expert" opinion? Why is one potentially incorrect deworming program better than another potentially incorrect program? Maybe a DW IS better than blindly paste deworming, but the real issue is that nobody should be blindly paste deworming in the first place - that's why we're in the trouble we're in now ;)


For fun, I'll try to get fecals from all my horses today and see how they come back. They've been on Strongid C daily for over a year, and honestly, they look and feel wonderful.
That will be interesting - will you share the results? :)

[Jaegermonster]

I took mine off the daily dewormer several months ago for about 6 months, for a couple of reasons but also to compare results. I noticed they didn't seem look as nice overall. I did put them onto a paste program during that time as instructed by my vet.

Here is what they are on now, back on the daily:

Daily dewormer
Quest Plus in March
double dose of Strongid mid summer (recommended by vet due to climate)
Equimax in October

everybody looks great, has shiny coats, good feet etc, fecal all come back clean.

[Gry2Yng]

Wanted to post an update on my horses, just to keep the discussion going. After reading this and a few other threads, I decided to rework my worming program. In the past my horses got daily wormer, ivermectin (Zimect Gold) in spring and fall. (And YES, last spring I ran into the infamous swollen lip with the gold). Horses got a power pack in the winter.

I did FEC every fall, but I can't say I did them correctly based on the information from this thread. So...

I decided to take the horses off the daily. I took one sample for each horse for three days and put them in the car for the vet. Emergency occurs, samples sit in the hot car for WAY too long. No good. Horses have already been off wormer for 3-5 days now. So, I took clean samples for one day, refrigerated. Dropped off at vet.

Counts came back. Older horse who has been on daily for almost 10 years came back negative. (Since 2004, his sample has ALWAYS come back negative, but like I said, my methods may not have been correct.) 4 yo, I have owned for 10 months came back with heavy load of strongyles. Gave double dose of ivermect. Will sample again in two weeks.

I also gave the older guy a double dose as he has had some minor skin issues and I thought I might get the NTW which wouldn't be in the FEC.

Thoughts from the worming experts are appreciated.

So two weeks came and went. Pulled the sample, test results came back today. Both horses clear of strongyles and all other worms that can be detected in FEC.

Thanks to all for this thread and the information in it. I now feel I have a protocol for those worms that can be caught in the FEC. While BM may not go for skipping a worming if there are no eggs, at least I now know how to detect when I am dealing with a resistance.

My suspicion is the old guy (I really hate that that is who he is now) is resistant to worms and that they probably both missed a daily wormer but the baby suffered for it. So both are off the DW for now.