What Do you Tirmmers think? [Archive]

Auventera Two

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:53 AM

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan040.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan043.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan048.jpg

here is a foot we ran across a week ago. have at it; PLEASE!:D

Jay, buddy. I love ya but white tennis shoes went out a lonnnnnnnnnng time ago! :lol: :winkgrin: :cool: :)

Oh, we were looking at the hoof! You said foot, so you know....naturally I assumed.....the one in the white tennis shoes.

Ok, moving along - the frog looks like it got on an airplaine and went - somewhere.... The foot is very deep with retained sole. Quarter looks jammed up. Toe looks long, but its kind of hard to tell in that shot. It looks very much like a horse I saw that had about 10 degrees rotation. The foot did not have the typical founder look with rings, dipped coronary band, and no depth at the apex, but there was rotation. The only clue was the very deep foot with tons of sole, no frog, and the REALLY tall or "stretched" looking heel bulbs. (When the dorsal tip of the bone rotates down, the soft tissue at the back of the foot that's attached to the distal portion of P3 is sucked up into the foot along with the bone, giving those deep collateral grooves, crappy frog, and elongated heel bulbs.)

And so given the fact that the other foot looks like its in an epona shoe or something with glue (wrapped in celophane), that's another clue that something is brewing here.

Ok, so my guess is founder.

So having no other photos, and zero information, how far off the mark am I???? :lol:

Auventera Two

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:56 AM

Ok, so now go ahead and say the horse is perfectly sound, some world champion barrel horse or something...............:lol:

Daydream Believer

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:23 AM

What jumps out at me at first is the medial heel is more forward...possibly sheared but I can't tell from these pics for certain...than the other heel. I see contracted heels with a painful looking crack in the frog sulcus and heel bulbs. I'd strongly suspect a toe first landing just looking at that as well as the longish toe and hoof conformation as well as the WL separation at the toe.

I would not rule out some mild laminitis either from the rings on the hoof and the WL separation. I suspect more than one thing is going on. Would love to see rads.

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:01 AM

Auventera Two......

So having no other photos, and zero information, how far off the mark am I???? :lol:

I'll post some more photos and the horse has/had "not" any issues per history. Keep it folks good stuff!

We have some good info to go along with youse' guys/gals thoughts!:cool:

grayarabpony

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:16 AM

Those are some damned tall contracted heels...

Bluey

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:23 AM

Those are some damned tall contracted heels...

And so uneven I am surprised there are no compensating flares.
Wonder what the other foot looks like and how the horse moves?

Someone roundpenned him too much on hard ground, all in one direction?;)

Auventera Two

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:23 AM

Those are some damned tall contracted heels...

:lol: Yup, I'd say!

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:59 AM

Work in progress - heels and toes still too long, heel contraction (and possible infection) and elongated hoof form [edit].

There's also been some excessive dorsal hoof wall rasping - how much toe flare did this horse have before and was thereany excessive rippling in the hoofwall that was also rasped off?

Bluey

Feb. 1, 2009, 11:46 AM

Work in progress - heels and toes still too long, heel contraction (and possible infection) and elongated hoof form from having worn shoes.

There's also been some excessive dorsal hoof wall rasping - how much toe flare did this horse have before and was thereany excessive rippling in the hoofwall that was also rasped off?

Did you really meant that to sound as silly as it does?:lol:

Stating that a horse with elongated hooves is like that because he wore shoes is like saying a horse with lordosis is like that because he is being ridden.:eek:
Does sound perfectly sensible, to someone that doesn't know anything about horses.:)

Seems that you may have a problem with cause and effect.;)

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 11:52 AM

Did you really meant that to sound as silly as it does?:lol:

That is like saying a horse with lordosis is like that because he is being ridden.:eek:
Does sound perfectly sensible, to someone that doesn't know anything about horses.:)

Seems that you may have a problem with cause and effect.;)

Yeah I have such a problem that I can actually confirm this trend with tons of before and after photos.

Seems like you have not had enough experience in this are to have noticed such a trend.

Here are just a few examples - all before shots show a hoof recently taken out of shoes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/RipleyRFSoleOct06-Jan09.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/DudeNov08-Jan09.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/MarshallBFATPhotosofLF.jpg

The last case showed the most tramatic transformation between May and Sep 2008. The hoof has already a much more normal, rounder shape by September.

BumbleBee

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:06 PM

Wow those heels sure look long and unbalanced from here. How long ago was the last trim? I'm hopeful those are not fresh rasp marks on the hoof wall.

I can't see what is up with the frog with all those shavings in the way.

Bluey

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:08 PM

Yeah I have such a problem that I can actually confirm this trend with tons of before and after photos.

Seems like you have not had enough experience in this are to have noticed such a trend.

Here are just a few examples - all before shots show a hoof recently taken out of shoes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/RipleyRFSoleOct06-Jan09.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/DudeNov08-Jan09.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/MarshallBFATPhotosofLF.jpg

The last case showed the most tramatic transformation between May and Sep 2008. The hoof has already a much more normal, rounder shape by September.

I can also tell you of the two year old backyard horse that had lordosis as a direct result from his 250+ rider, but those cases are exceptions to the millions of horses under saddle without becoming swaybacked.:yes:
We really should not try to make a case for a GENERAL cause and effect from exceptions.

Misuse, I assume in your "documented cases" bad shoeing, will cause all kinds of deformities, but it is not because the horses were shod, as those may also happen with bad trimming.:yes:
THAT was my point.:)

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:21 PM

Misuse, I assume in your "documented cases" bad shoeing, will cause all kinds of deformities, but it is not because the horses were shod, as those may also happen with bad trimming.:yes:
THAT was my point.:)
Perhaps in some cases, but not all. The first case had an excellent farrier. This horse was hot shod too. It still caused the hoof to run forward a bit. He could never get the toe to come back more and the heels more under no matter how well he addressed the breakover and supported the heels with the shoes. Plus a farrier turned barefoot trimmer also confirmed this observation for me some time ago.

tkhawk

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:29 PM

Hmm, horseshoes are pretty powerful I guess. Not only can they make the legs cold, they also cause a whole host of problems?:winkgrin:

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:32 PM

Hmm, horseshoes are pretty powerful I guess. Not only can they make the legs cold, they also cause a whole host of problems?:winkgrin: I know, resisting change is THE safe way to go.........:rolleyes::sleepy:

decorum

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:38 PM

First thing I saw was excessive rasping and wondered how much flare was there before that, I'm guessing it wasn't that much. Next I noticed the foot wasn't picked out but I could still see the horrible pencil frog and contracted bulbs. Probably infection in there. And the heels are quite uneven, the medial heel is farther forward and rolled inwards. Would love to see a heelshot to see if they are balanced, it looks like that heel bulb is shoved up.

I suppose you are going to tell us some trimmer got this horse in this shape and you are saving the day?;)

Ann Szolas

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:57 PM

You can also see that this horse tends to slightly load the medial edge of this front hoof more. The hoofwall on the inside is thicker :)

Daydream Believer

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:01 PM

I suppose you are going to tell us some trimmer got this horse in this shape and you are saving the day?;)

Ann Szolas

Actually it looked to me like he'd been in shoes from the nail holes in his hoof wall. :)

decorum

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:24 PM

I saw those nail holes too but wasn't sure if this was the first time JD had worked on it. Just speculating. :)

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:34 PM

decorum....
I suppose you are going to tell us some trimmer got this horse in this shape and you are saving the day?;)

Ann Szolas
Not this one; the horse pictured is/was apart of a study in a clinical setting.:yes:

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:40 PM

As stated before; more Pics of the foot::D

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan059.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan056.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan054.jpg

Thanks for the comments, Great Stuff!:yes:

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:52 PM

I see several regular growth lines that are usually a sign of possible metabolic issues here. Was that addressed at all aside from being rasped down?

LarkspurCO

Feb. 1, 2009, 02:05 PM

I'm not a trimmer, but judging from those photos I'd say this was definitely a chestnut horse with hoof problems.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 1, 2009, 02:22 PM

Yeah I have such a problem that I can actually confirm this trend with tons of before and after photos.

That's three photos you have there, and not one of them substantiates anything.

Seems like you have not had enough experience in this are to have noticed such a trend.

There is no such trend. If there were, mine would all have "elongated" feet.

Here are just a few examples - all before shots show a hoof recently taken out of shoes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/RipleyRFSoleOct06-Jan09.jpg
Shoes just pulled? [Bull]. Looks like horse was standing in mud and neglected for nine months. Not unlike like this one of mine after he was rescued (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/LF-soleB4trim.jpg). Clearly shoes have ruined his feet (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/Des-fronts.jpg)!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/DudeNov08-Jan09.jpg
I don't know what that gawdawful mess is, but it all looks like hell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/Popelina/MarshallBFATPhotosofLF.jpg
Far from a typical shoeing job.

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 02:34 PM

That's three photos you have there, and not one of them substantiates anything.

There is no such trend. If there were, mine would all have "elongated" feet.

Shoes just pulled? Bullshit. Looks like horse was standing in mud and neglected for nine months. Not unlike like this one of mine after he was rescued (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/LF-soleB4trim.jpg). Clearly shoes have ruined his feet (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/Des-fronts.jpg)!

I don't know what that gawdawful mess is, but it all looks like hell.

Far from a typical shoeing job. Thank you fro emphaszing how much experience you have in hoofcare - very little obviously. Believe what you like if that makes you happy.

The first set shows a horse whose shoes were removed the the hooves left alone for about 2 weeks. This is generally done to allow the hooves some adjustment period before giving them the first set-up trim. This horse had also experienced thin hoofwalls thanks to shoes and excessive nailholes because of it, as the farrier kept struggling with getting the nails into the thin walls.

I am not going to now put all my photos together just to satisfy your disbelief. I see this trend commonly and horses taken out of shoes, have lots of photos that show this AND it has been confirmed to me by a farrier who used to trim.

Perhaps your horses are rare exception - certainly possible.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 1, 2009, 02:40 PM

I am not going to now put all my photos together just to satisfy your disbelief. I see this trend commonly and horses taken out of shoes, have lots of photos that show this AND it has been confirmed to me by a farrier who used to trim.

Perhaps your horses are rare exception - certainly possible.

You are so full of it! I'm so tired of this worn-out, anti-shoeing propaganda. Yes, my horses ARE rare and VERY exceptional. I do believe that. So are the countless others I see on a regular basis, shod and sound with healthy hoof form, performing and/or competing.

Heck I must live in some freaking Rare and Exceptional Hoof Utopia!

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 02:43 PM

Thank you fro emphaszing how much experience you have in hoofcare - very little obviously. Believe what you like if that makes you happy.

The first set shows a horse whose shoes were removed the the hooves left alone for about 2 weeks. This is generally done to allow the hooves some adjustment period before giving them the first set-up trim. This horse had also experienced thin hoofwalls thanks to shoes and excessive nailholes because of it, as the farrier kept struggling with getting the nails into the thin walls.

I am not going to now put all my photos together just to satisfy your disbelief. I see this trend commonly and horses taken out of shoes, have lots of photos that show this AND it has been confirmed to me by a farrier who used to trim.

Perhaps your horses are rare exception - certainly possible.

Ule or Ulla,

Please refrain from debates with others about your work. if you want to show pics of your experiences start a new thread Please. The thread i started has a great ending that will not hurt any feelings but will cause a "Good Disturbance" of intellectual thinking.

Thanks!:)

BornToRide

Feb. 1, 2009, 03:01 PM

Ule or Ulla,

Please refrain from debates with others about your work. if you want to show pics of your experiences start a new thread Please. The thread i started has a great ending that will not hurt any feelings but will cause a "Good Disturbance" of intellectual thinking.

Thanks!:) I did not start this and really have no interest in debating my work. However, I think less educated horses owners might find it helpful to learn more about what to look for in a healthy hoof. Would you not agree?

I pointed out some things totally sticking to this thread, only to get attacked again by some folks who just can't handle different opinions.

You should talk to the the posters who do not believe that this horse's hoof is elongated from wearing shoes and incorect trimming.

And who's Ulla??!

Posting Trot

Feb. 1, 2009, 03:49 PM

I'm not a trimmer and make no claims to any great store of knowledge. The hooves do look a bit upright to me, and the heels look contracted. The horse may or may not be sound in work right now, but I'd think that over the long term (if the hooves remain the way they are) the horse might develop some soundness problems.

grayarabs

Feb. 1, 2009, 03:50 PM

JD - the first set and second set of photos were taken with no work on the hooves in between? FWIW I prefer the first set over the second. If no work done in between - well then photos can be deceiving. If work done - and second set the results - I would wish for a do-over and start out with the first set and re-think things - not resulting in the second set.

Auventera Two

Feb. 1, 2009, 03:51 PM

Peter026

Feb. 1, 2009, 03:52 PM

Hu? :confused: I didn't get any of that :o

Ditto :no:

grayarabs

Feb. 1, 2009, 03:58 PM

Let's see what JD reveals - he must be up to something - and this is educational and I think the intent is in good spirit.

grayarabs

Feb. 1, 2009, 04:00 PM

Just a thought - does anyone have the computer capability to put the photos in a sequence - side by side - whatever - for better comparison/study?

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 04:08 PM

Let's see what JD reveals - he must be up to something - and this is educational and I think the intent is in good spirit.

Yes in very good spirit! It's quite a few pics and a couple of vids. It's taking me some time in between my "Honey Do's"!!:D:lol:

grayarabs

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:54 PM

JD posted photos in his posts 1 and 25.
Unless it is camera angle - the photos in post 25 - the hoof looks "stubbier" and more upright. Are these "before' and "after" photos?

Pippigirl

Feb. 1, 2009, 06:33 PM

Did you really meant that to sound as silly as it does?:lol:

Stating that a horse with elongated hooves is like that because he wore shoes is like saying a horse with lordosis is like that because he is being ridden.:eek:
Does sound perfectly sensible, to someone that doesn't know anything about horses.:)

Seems that you may have a problem with cause and effect.;)

I second BTR's observation. If there was no flaring on the hoof, why all the wall rasping.

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 06:50 PM

I second BTR's observation. If there was no flaring on the hoof, why all the wall rasping.

Same foot, no additional trimming to shorten toe or heels, just some dorsal superficial rasping for a reason. i am still organizing the Stuff. :D:yes:

Bluey

Feb. 1, 2009, 06:57 PM

---"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluey
Did you really meant that to sound as silly as it does?

Stating that a horse with elongated hooves is like that because he wore shoes is like saying a horse with lordosis is like that because he is being ridden.
Does sound perfectly sensible, to someone that doesn't know anything about horses.

Seems that you may have a problem with cause and effect. "---

I second BTR's observation. If there was no flaring on the hoof, why all the wall rasping.

Did you mean to quote me as you did?
If so, your answer doesn't make sense to me there, so don't know how to respond.

I already mentioned before that, with such uneven heels, I would have expected to see some flare, if not trimmed very often.

grayarabs

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:20 PM

So I am intrigued. Something does not add up.....The second set appears to show a toe lacking height. Horse appears to be weighting the heels. I would be thinking about further lowering and backing up the heels. Much to say - but will limit it to that for now.

J.D.

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:05 PM

I do and will apologize!
Have spent hours(surmized) on the phone with "Trimmers" and "Farriers" this evening.

That has put me behind in my responses. Please bare(bear) with me.

Thanks!:sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile:

Moderator 1

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:34 AM

A reminder to stick to the main topic--the OP will likely have more info on this horse forthcoming for your discussion.

We've addressed some of the generalizations made earlier privately, in an effort to keep things productive.

Thanks!
Mod 1

Auventera Two

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:37 AM

LMH

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:50 AM

irishcas

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:53 AM

Whoa AT breathe...the phone calls had nothing to do with the photos. JD lives near me-we talk sometimes. He sharpens my knives I give him wine.:lol:

He and I were talking about a TOTALLY different topic!

As far as the mods getting involved-kind of odd considering JD took it off topic with me:lol:

Less caffeine dear.;)

Yeah and I teased him George Meyer came on this AM and said Good Grief due to our exchanges, Leah with JD and poof those messages are gone.

Are we not all adults here, nothing sexual was said? Sheeeeesh.

Leah, I will call you later today are you around?

Kim

LMH

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:11 AM

Yes I am-rainy day so no horse fun.:cry:

irishcas

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:15 AM

Well Paige, Ruth and I are here at the farm together, going down to the barn to trim and film so will be back later. Can you PM me your phone number.

Thanks

Auventera Two

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:50 AM

I don't understand the Mod's warning of keeping it on topic? What was said that was so bad? I just don't get all the drama about these feet. So they're unhealthy. Big whoopty.

BornToRide

Feb. 2, 2009, 11:18 AM

I agree - sounds really more like a baiting thread than someone really interested in discussing the problems of those hooves in detail.

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 12:53 PM

Kaeler,

Close your eyes and read no further!

I did not start this and really have no interest in debating my work. Frankly my dear you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag when it comes to discussing equine hoofcare and equine anatomy.

However, I think less educated horses owners might find it helpful to learn more about what to look for in a healthy hoof. Would you not agree? yes.

I for one am very eagre to ensure these "less educated owners" know that you fall in that category and to be VERY aware they'll not be wise considering you have anything of worth to learn from.

I pointed out some things totally sticking to this thread, only to get attacked again by some folks who just can't handle different opinions. Its called Challenge. You post rubbish. Others challenge it.

It's what people do when something wrong is posted.

In the meantime I'll wait with baited breath to hear the OP's account of case history and informed opinion.

ThoroughbredFancy

Feb. 2, 2009, 01:18 PM

Ok, I don't even UNDERSTAND this thread???? What is so top secret and dramatic about these danged feet? Hours on the phone with trimmers and farriers? Moderator getting involved? Am I in the twilight zone or what? Just tell us what the deal is with the feet and be done with it. Way too much drama for a stupid foot picture. Good grief.

I believe I am in the same boat as you. I've been following the thread but still haven't a clue as to what is going on. :lol:

Although I am curious as to what the big deal is in regards to those feet.

Moderator 1

Feb. 2, 2009, 03:24 PM

Sorry for being unclear--the reference to OT posting was the tangent re: BTR, brought on by a generalization on her part in an earlier post. So, I repeat on that note, stay on topic.

And yes, we also removed some somewhat saucy banter that yes, was innocent and not a big deal, but was pushing the envelope a bit, and we couldn't help but see it while we were looking over the rest. ;)

Sooo...everyone hang tight and wait for more info on the hooves/horse in question.

Thanks!
Mod 1

grayarabs

Feb. 2, 2009, 05:00 PM

JD - what is on the other hoof? Shoe, boot, saran wrap?

George Myers

Feb. 2, 2009, 05:27 PM

greysandbays

Feb. 2, 2009, 06:09 PM

That foot "elongated from being shod" notion is pure moon cheese.

I know one horse with feet at least as "elongated" as that Dude horse picture. I've known that horse since he was born (he's six or seven now) That horse has never, ever in his life been shod. He just has really, really crappy conformation that is never in this lifetime going to be conducive to decent feet. (The foot is NEVER, EVER going to be better than the leg above it, no matter what miracle workers BFT's consider themselves to be.) The sire to this horse had the same crappy legs and "elongated" foot (he was never shod either). When it's "like father, like son", it's pretty safe to say the problem is genetics.

LMH

Feb. 2, 2009, 06:21 PM

J.D.

Feb. 2, 2009, 06:45 PM

Good grief again.

I wasn't commenting on any 'saucy banter' hadn't even registered it truth be told - my comment was in relation to the fact that JD is taking so long to tell us what the big deal is with those feet.

Some of us have to work, do chores and have a family life!:rolleyes:

I will upload the pics, vids and information in a couple hours. Promise:D

greysandbays

Feb. 2, 2009, 06:47 PM

Genetically elongated hooves?

Is this common?

Was the same person trimming both father and son?

When not-very-bright breeders get enthralled with a "color", it's not all that "uncommon" for whacky legs/feet to result. If there was ever a list of Stallions Who Should Not Be Stallions, this guy would have been right close to the top of the list.

He came from previous owner with narrow heels and a disproportionately elongated foot. His son that I knew had exactly the same feet from the time he was little. At least one other offspring of this stallion was born with legs so bad it had to be put down when it couldn't stand properly. (I think that one was a full sibling to the one I know.)

Owner I knew him (ther sire) with did have the same trimmer doing him and his son -- and their dozen or so other horses over the years. Only these two had really freaky feet. The rest had pretty good looking feet -- even the two ponies who had foundered and the TB who had really horrid feet when they got her was looking pretty good after they'd had her a couple of years. (After they sold her, her feet went to crap again with new owner and different trimmer.)

George Myers

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:33 PM

Genetically elongated hooves?

Is this common?

Was the same person trimming both father and son?

Or even mother and daughter? :)

Certainly seen a load of environmentally elongated hooves; have seen a pony mare with U shaped front feet with stilt-like heels and larva flow toes at age 9 who had perfect round feet when aged 4. Seen others who never had a chance from not having sufficient movement on firm terrain as foals.

But haven't heard about genetically U shaped feet.

George Myers

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:35 PM

"Political Correctness: A doctrine which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

A disturbing image - and one I'd rather not have had just after eating my lunch.

LMH

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:51 PM

Or even mother and daughter? :)

Certainly seen a load of environmentally elongated hooves; have seen a pony mare with U shaped front feet with stilt-like heels and larva flow toes at age 9 who had perfect round feet when aged 4. Seen others who never had a chance from not having sufficient movement on firm terrain as foals.

But haven't heard about genetically U shaped feet.

nooooooo a mother daughter team would NEVER let hooves get oblong.

Silly boy!

On a serious note, I agree with you. Environment, lack of correct movement, bad trim-not heard so much about these genetic oblong hooves.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:00 AM

Some of us have to work, do chores and have a family life!:rolleyes:

I will upload the pics, vids and information in a couple hours. Promise:D

Promises, promises. :sigh:

I am ^^^trembbbbling^^^ with anticipation.

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:48 AM

Sorry for the delays~~~

To get started we have to back up a bit. Here is the foot I asked about

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan040.jpg

A couple of weekends ago there was a 2 day conference at a Veterinarian teaching hospital. For this conference a horse was needed that was barefoot. The pictured horse was used due to he's nature and lack of issues.
Oneof the demonstration/hands on portions of the 2-day conference was to signify whether a shod foot is any different than a barefoot. The difference being Impact and Load characteristics. To do this, the Force Measuring membrane was applied between the ground and foot and the foot and shoe. The Membrane had attachment to a data collection module and module downloaded to a computer for data analysis...

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan032.jpg

To collect the data from the membrane the membrane and module had to be attached to thee foot and leg, thus via glues. Glue was used because nails would impede electro conductivity...

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan063.jpg

The module had to attached lightly to the leg and foot..

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan075.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan085.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan091.jpg

to be continued...............................:D

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:06 AM

People had inquired about rasping on the wall. the rasping was light and non- constructive or destructive. The scoring was to have a good clean surface for the glue to adhere properly......

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan056.jpg

The horse was supposedly trimmed by a prominent Hoof Care professional using barefoot techniques a month or so before this conference.....

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan040.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan043.jpg

The operator of the hands on clinical is also a prominent Hoof Care Professional at a leading teaching facility in which his techniques are alll forms of Farriery.

So, the experiment begins.

Here is the horse barefooted and walked for a "Benchmark" to make sure there were no gait abnormalities; no membrane or module attached to the leg......

http://s150.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan132.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Here is the horse walking with data collection attached....

http://s150.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan136.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

When data was collected at a walk on a flat hard surface the shoes were removed to collect data on the same surface barefooted...

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan121.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan119.jpg

Again continued..........:D

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:19 AM

With data collected in both modes; barefoot and shod here is what was seen when the data was downloaded to the computer....

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan096.jpg

When looking at the next 4 pictures the lateral side of the foot is at top portion and the medial is at the bottom portion; RED indicates the most pressures at impact and load with degradations as other colors and intensities....... Black and White "Dot" is the center of pressure for that foot.....

Here is Barefoot at Stance:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/BarefootStance.png

Here is Shod Foot at stance:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/FlatShodStance.png

Here is Barefoot at a walk on hard surface:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/BarefootWalk.png

Here is the shod foot at a walk on hard surface:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/FlatShodWalk.png

So they you have it! Essentially there was no "SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE" in a barefoot horse and a shod horse in their Impact and Load Characteristics.

Some insights.... to be continued again.......:D

irishcas

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:24 AM

Was the horse more sound or the same between shod/barefoot?

Kim

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:28 AM

Some Insights~~~

1- Barefoot shows a more sole impact with inconsistent patterns of loading
2- Shod shows a more uniform Impact/ Loading
3- No matter shod/barefoot the horse loaded laterad with little medial side of the foot impact/load~~~Thicker Hoof Wall medially?
4- Horse noticibly more comfortable in shoes versus barefoot.

Granted this is one horse and one foot; the technology used in a controlled/clinical setting showed and will show in the future there is No Significant difference in Impact/Load characteristics.

So people start using your brains and educate yourselves beyond one's convictions. Use logic, conformation and usage of the horse(s) in your Charge!

Thanks!:cool::cool:

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:35 AM

There is data showing Impact and load with equipak placed in the solar portions of both the barefoot and shod foot. Will upload when i recieve pics:D

Both data collections were at a walk on Soft footing!

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:39 AM

Was the horse more sound or the same between shod/barefoot?

Kim

I will let the group make their own decisions:confused::confused::confused::

Here is the horse without shoes ~~

http://s150.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan132.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

Here is the horse with shoes~~

http://s150.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan136.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

hurleycane

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:52 AM

Way cool thread! Love the science.

He looks sound in shoes - a little dipping with the head when bare.

My bet is the thread is going to turn into he is "in transition" and not truly bare - specially with the nail holes...

But the science is great! And your set up was even better!
Thanks!

Kolsch

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:52 AM

Question about the results of the force measuring- l might be wrong, but I thought the little triangle/square in the middle was the measure of center of weightbearing??

Why does that point markedly change between the unshod foot at walk and the shod foot at walk?

My hypothesis would be that the comfort the horse shows shod allows for the horse to have a more normal carriage of the mass passing above the hoof.

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:16 AM

I have one problem with comparing these two videos that just hit me.

The trim on that horse is NOT what I would call excellent-or stated more properly that foot is NOT in good form.

His toe is long, there is virtually no mustang roll, pitiful heel surface area, etc

he also does not have freedom of movement like I like to see-he does not have a 'slinky cat like' walk that is what you want in an athletic horse. There is little freedom in his shoulder and when he steps it is not with the 'confidence' that you see in a horse with healthy structures.

I would think this trim with this hoof would be 'peripherally loading' just like a shoe so am not surprised there were no differences in the imaging. I am also not surprised at the increased sole load-especially considered his other structures are not a peak health to help carry the load.

What would be more interesting is to keep this information and THEN have someone come in and put a trim on the horse that would create the stimulus to increase the health of the structures and THEN do the testing again when this same foot is in what I could consider healthy form.

Is that possible?

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:19 AM

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:31 AM

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:33 AM

Kolsch-Question about the results of the force measuring- l might be wrong, but I thought the little triangle/square in the middle was the measure of center of weightbearing??

Center of pressure area on the botom of the foot from conformation and body mass.

Why does that point markedly change between the unshod foot at walk and the shod foot at walk?

What do you think?

My hypothesis would be that the comfort the horse shows shod allows for the horse to have a more normal carriage of the mass passing above the hoof.

A possibly good theory:)

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:37 AM

LMH-I have one problem with comparing these two videos that just hit me.

The trim on that horse is NOT what I would call excellent-or stated more properly that foot is NOT in good form.

His toe is long, there is virtually no mustang roll, pitiful heel surface area, etc

he also does not have freedom of movement like I like to see-he does not have a 'slinky cat like' walk that is what you want in an athletic horse. There is little freedom in his shoulder and when he steps it is not with the 'confidence' that you see in a horse with healthy structures.

The form is what we had to work with and the horse's nature was quiet. perfect form and sensibility in a conference can be a challenge:yes:

I would think this trim with this hoof would be 'peripherally loading' just like a shoe so am not surprised there were no differences in the imaging. I am also not surprised at the increased sole load-especially considered his other structures are not a peak health to help carry the load.

What would be more interesting is to keep this information and THEN have someone come in and put a trim on the horse that would create the stimulus to increase the health of the structures and THEN do the testing again when this same foot is in what I could consider healthy form.

Is that possible?

The pictured horse i also in a study of barefoot in a clinical settings. he/horses was picked for his nature and "decent feet".

Maybe at the end of the clinical trial the horse is in; it would be interesting:confused::winkgrin:

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:39 AM

I have to side with Leah. I predicted a toe first landing based on those unhealthy frogs and contracted weak heels and I'm pretty sure that is what I saw in that video of him bare...but admittedly both videos were full of glare and hard to see. I am not sure you are comparing apples to apples either.

I agree that his trim could have been much better and it's clear he's not been bare for long with those nail holes in his walls. I could send you a really sound and rock crushing bare hooved horse whose never worn shoes to use in your experiments next time if you'd like instead of one that looks marginally sound. It might make the results more clear.

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:42 AM

Reader's Digest version-I don't care for the trim, don't consider the hoof in prime healthy form and would not be surprised if he was more comfy shod.

However I don't think the results would be the trim if he had a trim better suited for performing without hoof protection.

That is ok. It's what was presented with the parameters of sensibility~~ some horses would have 'lost their minds' with all the vets/vet students, farriers and onlookers. Add a data collection module to the leg/foot and cellophane wrap and the such.........:eek::eek::eek::D

grayarabpony

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:47 AM

Let me get this right -- they used a recently shod horse with contracted heels as their "barefoot" guinea pig? I'm putting this kindly when I say, What Clowns!

This kind of ridiculous pseudo-science does nothing to promote any understanding of a horse's hoof and how a shoe affects it. :rolleyes:

ChocoMare

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:51 AM

Reader's Digest version-I don't care for the trim, don't consider the hoof in prime healthy form and would not be surprised if he was more comfy shod.

However I don't think the results would be the [same]if he had a trim better suited for performing without hoof protection.

Amen and big ditto.

That hoof was clearly trimmed in preparation for another shoe....it's flat, no rolling of beveling of the toe and the heels are very contracted. Would love to see the same horse re-tested after 90 days with correct trimming done every 3 weeks.

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:53 AM

Here is the problem though JD-he was chosen for having 'decent feet'-but in *my world* I would see these hooves, cringe and think-crap another weekend warrior not getting it right.

Of course he IS recently out of shoes so the trimmer would get some slack there.

Sadly the only thing this study proves is a bare horse with weak hoof form does not show different pressure points than a shod horse.

Until farriers, vets AND trimmers can learn to recognize what GOOD bare form looks like, these kinds of studies will not be helpful and will only promote-what is it farrier's call it? Junk science?
;)

I also understand the trouble in finding well natured horses-but they are out there.

If anyone is interested in repeating the study with a healthy hooved horse, I bet you could find volunteers right on this forum!

hurleycane

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:54 AM

Just curious - what sort of pressure pattern do you expect will be seen in a properly trimmed and conditioned bare foot???

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:01 AM

If anyone is interested in repeating the study with a healthy hooved horse, I bet you could find volunteers right on this forum!

I'd let you all use my stallion. He's a seasoned expo horse and not at all flustered in crowds. He also has very healthy sound bare feet. I will however pull the shoes when you are done with putting them on. ;)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/KHP08-9.jpg

I agree that those feet were far from "decent" in my world also. I'd probably be doing a case study on him!

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:04 AM

Just curious - what sort of pressure pattern do you expect will be seen in a properly trimmed and conditioned bare foot???

I'd expect to see less loading at the toe and the walls and more evenly spaced around the hoof...not concentrated on the toe as you see. That horse was landing on his toes versus a healthy heel first landing. We'd see the bars, heels, and sole engage more in dissipating the force. The frog of course plays a role when it's healthy and normal which this horse's was not.

Kolsch

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:04 AM

What do you think?

After seeing the barefoot at walk with the COP not moving, I'd make sure my settings were right, check my leads, smack the machine a few times and mostly likely start to swear.

All systems functioning, my other hypothesis would then apply.

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:07 AM

FWIW I just looked at the videos again and am not impressed with his movement shod either.:confused:

He still looks like a horse moves when the toes are too long. There is no freedom and forward SWING-LAND in his shoulder to a solid heel first landing.

The funny part? I can "see" the pretty swing that this horse WANTS to have-it is not HE is a poor mover-I think with a different trim (then bare or shod, I don't care) you would see a TOTALLY differently moving horse-even shod.

tkhawk

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:55 AM

Hmm-I wouldn't go into the condition of the feet-not my area of expertise. That does have a huge bearing-so if not right, may skew the only one test conducted.

But the results seem somewhat similar to the results Larkspur CO posted about a study done in a Canadian vet school?

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:09 AM

But the results seem somewhat similar to the results Larkspur CO posted about a study done in a Canadian vet school?

What were those results? That unhealthy bare hooves show the same impact and poorly balanced shod feet?:confused:

webmistress32

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:12 AM

The feet shown in NO WAY represent a good, healthy bare horse.

I concur.

the study was front loaded for the desired outcome.

there are only three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. :D

rmh

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:15 AM

There may be some deficiencies in the horse's feet so no absolute conclusions can be formulated. However this study is a start in the right direction. A better and bigger sample will be needed to extrapolate this to anything significant. But the idea is intriguing.:yes:

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:18 AM

Or yet another attempt to perpetuate the common belief that horses need shoes to be sound, when in fact horses should be sound with, or without shoes. The shoes should merely be a tool to achieve perhaps more traction or more slide.

decorum

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:22 AM

OK, unhealthy foot, just out of shoes and not a proper trim. He was a poor choice for the study but I sincerely appreciate that someone at least attempted this study, it's a good thing.

But am I the only one here that noticed that there was a bunch more red on the shod foot walking on a hard suface? I don't know how touchy that machine is but you said red means more impact but then you said there was no difference. What gives?

Ann Szolas

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:22 AM

Auventera Two

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:24 AM

The more I think on this, the more it bugs me that Jay says the horse is sound in shoes, but lame barefoot, so therefore, shoes are the answer, blah blah blah.

Yeah, I'd agree this horse would be sounder in shoes. That's obvious. So then look at WHY. It's because the feet are so poorly developed, and weak. So is the answer to correctly trim and develop the feet so they CAN be healthy, sound bare feet, or is the answer to put shoes on and delcare the horse "sound?" ;)

tkhawk

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:26 AM

What were those results? That unhealthy bare hooves show the same impact and poorly balanced shod feet?:confused:

As I mentioned-this was one single test with obviously many of you interpreting the feet in different ways. But the other study was almost counterintuitive-in that it showed shod horses had less concussion I believe?
I was bit surprised too.
Here is that thread.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=179185

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:28 AM

The point being those results could also be pointless unless we know the condition and health of the hooves.

tkhawk

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:47 AM

If you look at it that way, no test will meausre up. In the Canada case, they measured race horses a wide variety of them -standardbred and TBs and were even interested in types of shoes. They just documented their results.

In this case you had the same horse-barefoot-as many of you say not good feet. I am no expert-I don't wan't to venture there and offer my opinion-at least the exact reasons of why it was bad or how bad it is. Also with just a single horse, difficult to say. But the test was as close to science as possible. In the real world, you do come across horses with crappy feet-trimmed or shod. My friend has icelandics and trims them herself-same knowledge as me. You do have people of all stripes. So you had the same horse, not the world's greatest feet-put shoes on and then had results documented. Now if they included hoof boots, that would have made it even more interesting..

JHUshoer20

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:53 AM

Condition of hooves was just fine. [edit]
Excellent thread Jaye.
George

Auventera Two

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:57 AM

Condition of hooves was just fine. I've never yet seen any trimmer EVER see a hoof they've ever liked.

Wanna bet???? ;) I've posted lots of photos of hooves that I trim that I like just fine.

If you want to argue that the hooves shown here are healthy and "fine" then you're better off going on ignore because you've just proven you don't have a clue what you're doing.

hurleycane

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:12 PM

I gotta say - from all the offerings on line - I really think you are gonna get the same results - specially if you have that good "CONCAVITY" of sole. I do not think the frog will take up much weight because of the difference in density of it and the sole/wall. The frog will give sooo much it will not register much at all on the pressure plate thingy.

And when I look at the barefoot one - there is a broader area of contact than the shoe. Based on that - I think it would be interesting to see how all the various shoe/pad combos test up as well as different trim styles. Specially if they can keep redoing some of these on the same horse.

Just my backyard opinion based on your many fine posts and dissertations.

Great Science!

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:12 PM

If you want to argue that the hooves shown here are healthy and "fine" then you're better off going on ignore because you've just proven you don't have a clue what you're doing.I think he does, at least from his point of view and what he learned to become a farrier.

The problem is to allow for new ideas and developments to come in that would change how he would approach his work.

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:14 PM

Since when is a toe first landing fine? My vet was here a little bit ago and we were discussing this thread and he said that toe first landing is a lameness on a PPE. The horse used was lame for Pete's sake! How can the test results be valid under those circumstances?

I can also find lots of bare feet I like. I have posted pics of some also on here of good healthy feet (see the TB hoof thread from not long ago).

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:36 PM

Condition of hooves was just fine. I've never yet seen any trimmer EVER see a hoof they've ever liked. Gives them a good out. To those with a properly functioning BS detector it just doesn't work.

Excellent thread Jaye.
George

That is BS...I have seen plenty of hooves I like-but not those.

Your ignorance is showing.

Feb. 3, 2009, 04:04 PM

OMG, that horse was chosen because he had "decent feet"?

No freakin' wonder so many horses are in trouble.

Bad choice of feet for an experiment of this nature. Really bad.

grayarabs

Feb. 3, 2009, 04:23 PM

Ditto - Did I read correctly that a "barefooter" pulled the shoes and trimmed the horse approx a month prior to the study? Would love for that person to come here and give some info. In the photos I saw evidence of a "barefooters" work - in progress - not a finished product for sure - IMHO - looking at the first set of photos - with better camera angles.

matryoshka

Feb. 3, 2009, 04:47 PM

I'm not a fan of the trim either. Those feet aren't what most of us trimmers would call healthy.

So maybe the results show that there isn't much difference between bare feet that are not in good condition and shod feet. :lol::lol:

Having said that, one of the horses I've trimmed for 3 years has contracted heels like this, and nothing I do trimming-wise gets them to open up. He's in a wet environment. When I leased him to compete at distance, he moved to a drier environment. The heels started to open up, and he got sore on rocks. Had been a rock cruncher despite contracted heels. He was getting more comfortable on rocks again (wanting to trot and canter) at the point where he got kicked and required surgery. Now he's back in the wet environment while he gets time off per vet's instructions.

BornToRide

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:02 PM

OMG, that horse was chosen because he had "decent feet"?

No freakin' wonder so many horses are in trouble.

Bad choice of feet for an experiment of this nature. Really bad.Exactly! Too many people are used to looking at pathological hooves and think they are normal. They no longer know what healthy actually looks like, if they ever did.

And, if someone tries to point this out who happens to be a barefoot trimmer, they get instead bashed for pointing out the obvious faults of a bad trim and/or shoeing job. Kinda like what happened when someone dared to say that the earth wasn't really flat.....:(

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:30 PM

Condition of hooves was just fine. [edit]
Excellent thread Jaye.
George

Even edited, you are showing your total lack of understanding and recognition of healthy hooves. You can really look in the mirror and say this is so? How sad.:no:

I am actually quite disappointed that farriers would consider that hoof healthy.

Perhaps this explains why those same farriers can't believe horses can perform barefoot.

*I* wouldn't bet on that hoof to perform well-no one with any sense would.

I will agree it is an interesting thread.

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:36 PM

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:39 PM

WOW!!!:eek::eek:

Guess we need to get perfect/speciem hooves/feet to look at/study:confused:

Let me ask a question~~~ What are the percentage of so-called "un-healthy feet" across this country in the horse population?

I would like an honest assessment please from each person who has opined.:)

VERY HIGH for heaven's sake-that is the POINT most of us are ALWAYS making!:eek:

People take an unhealthy hoof then piss and moan that it can't go bare-well duh.

There ARE healthy feet-they just seem to be so few and far between that professional farriers can't even recognize them.

The horse in those photos had unhealthy looking feet combined with an uncomfortable way of going.

SO, yes if you are going to make a point that bare abd shod hooves have the same concussion, impact or whatever, it is POINTLESS if the darn hoof is not one any trimmer would consider healthy enough to be in work barefoot.

Why does this not make sense?

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:44 PM

LMH;-VERY HIGH for heaven's sake-that is the POINT most of us are ALWAYS making!:eek:

.....

I asked for a percentage in your opinion( % ), not a diatribe. Please state your opinion in a percentage(%):yes::D

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:46 PM

WOW!!!:eek::eek:

Guess we need to get perfect/speciem hooves/feet to look at/study:confused:
It WOULD help to have a horse who is obviously comfortable moving in his own body. This horse *obviously* wasn't, and it was painfully obvious in the barefoot video. It was only a little better in the shod video.

Let me ask a question~~~ What are the percentage of so-called "un-healthy feet" across this country in the horse population?

I would like an honest assessment please from each person who has opined.:)
It's not an assessment, it's a guess. Wild one at that. But if I HAD to guess, I'd say way more than 50%. I think of allllll the people I have talked to over the years on various boards who cannot find someone to trim their horse's feet who are either 1) reliable or 2) any good. THAT is the common theme among ALL these hoof threads - the quality of hoofcare, in general, in this country, SUCKS.

If you, and George, and whomever else thought these feet were "decent enough", and you guys claim to know good hoof form, then that is part of the problem.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:49 PM

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:49 PM

JB.... But if I HAD to guess, I'd say way more than 50%. .

Thanks!....

I would like everyone to give an enumerated percentage like JB. Thanks Again!:)

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:51 PM

I don't have a percentage to give you and it won't serve any point-you will disagree, 3 others will give other numbers and it will be a hoof fight.

The more interesting question to you is (since you posted the photos and videos) do YOU find this hoof to be in healthy form? Is this acceptable in your professional opinion?

Does this horse look comfortable in either video?

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:53 PM

But in the study horse here, do you really know whether those feet are healthy or not? That short little bit of video didn't really show me much. I do agree that valid points were raised and it would have been nice to have study horse with more "textbook" perfect looking feet.

By looking at the photos that show a hoof that is forward in the toe, a puny very unhealthy frog and lack of heel purchase (surface area).

NO one could say that frog is healthy. NO one.

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:55 PM

I've noticed some of the people here are saying the study horse's hooves are unhealthy, based on photos.

I find it interesting that some of the same people are on the other endurance race thread defending the horse's feet, yet the photos look like crap and showed obvious recent pathology. Yes, it apparently finished a race, but none of us really knows how it fared or whether it really even did the whole thing barefoot.

But in the study horse here, do you really know whether those feet are healthy or not? That short little bit of video didn't really show me much. I do agree that valid points were raised and it would have been nice to have study horse with more "textbook" perfect looking feet.

I think part of the feet is that the JD said (and apparently agreed with) that the folks who picked this horse picked him in part because of "decent feet". Maybe we have vastly disparate definitions of "decent".

I don't think the endurance horse has "decent" feet either. But obviously they were good enough to not get pulled at a vet check, AND good enough to finish that race. The horse in these pictures is not a happy camper. Whether it's solely because of the feet, or something in his body is causing his feet to not be better and causing a catch-22, I couldn't begin to tell you.

I think it IS safe to say, based on the many pictures of this horse's feet, that they are not healthy. Could they be worse? Absolutely! But they also could be a LOT better. That is not the same, though, as saying that they ever CAN be better. Some horses are just too screwed up in the body to ever have the best feet they were genetically born with.

Hony

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:59 PM

J.D.
Next time just make sure you use a horse that qualifies (make sure it has a mustang roll) so that the test is more scientific. :rolleyes:

Interesting study. Thanks for posting.

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:01 PM

Hony......

And your thoughts on the percentage of horses that have "un-healthy" hooves/feet in the U.S?:)
i asked first:D

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:05 PM

J.D.
Next time just make sure you use a horse that qualifies (make sure it has a mustang roll) so that the test is more scientific. :rolleyes:

Interesting study. Thanks for posting.

You really think that is the issue? The lack of a mustang roll?

Oh I get it-you are just trying to dumb down what trimmers have to say!:lol:

Good one!

So, what do YOU think of the health of the frogs?

And how is the study interesting when the comparison shows a hoof unhealthy?

Interesting IDEA for sure-showing bad hooves doesn't give very fascinating results though.

Hony

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:14 PM

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:15 PM

I'd say about 80% of the hooves I trim now in about 80-100 horses currently started out with something unhealthy about them..either underrun heels, flared walls, flat soles, contracted thrushy heels, sheared heels, imbalances, toe first landings, chips, and cracks. Most were trim related problems but some are conformational or a result of a pathology like club feet, etc...

The best feet I usually see are on babies or young stock that have been well trimmed since birth. That can't be a coincidence.

greysandbays

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:18 PM

From somebody:
But haven't heard about genetically U shaped feet.

and somebody else:
On a serious note, I agree with you. Environment, lack of correct movement, bad trim-not heard so much about these genetic oblong hooves.

I believe it's called "mule footed".

It's listed as being part of the breed standard on the Kiger page: http://www.kigersdeloscalifornios.com/kiger_breed_standard.htm
HOOVES: Dense, compact, recessed sole and frog, tending to be oblong or mule footed.

From some horse conformation site that considers mule feet to be a conformation flaw:

Mule Feet - Horse has a narrow, oval foot with steep walls

Mule feet are fairly common, usually seen in American Quarter Horses, Arabians, Saddlebreds, Tennessee Walkers, Foxtrotters, and Mules
A mule foot provides little shock absorption for foot & limb, creating issues like sole bruising, corns, laminitis, navicular, sidebone, and ringbone. Not all horses have soundness issues, especially if they are light on the front end & have very tough horn.
Because the hind end provides propulsion, it is normal to see more narrower hooves on the back feet compared to front. Soft-terrain sports like polo, dressage, arena work (equitation, reining, cutting), and pleasure riding are most suitable.

From some site that was supposed to be PDF but "read as HTML" messes up formatting and loses the graphics:
Other Colonial Spanish Horse traits were roughly the same in both island groups. For example, the hooves of these island horses, like other CS Horses, were large for the body size, impressively thick walled, and of several shapes from round to “mule-footed.” This writer was surprised to see that they were not “sand-footed”. This type hoof tends to spread or “pancake” for a broader, flatter walking surface such as we have seen in some
desert horses, but it was not present in any of the examples we saw on both islands. Their
hooves were more similar in type to Barb type strains than flatter footed Southwesterns. A good heel height was seen on all, but not as high as is seen in most Northern Plains
types..

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:19 PM

What I learned from the study was that THAT horse showed no change whether barefoot or not. THAT HORSE. It did not show that either barefoot or shod is better. It demonstrated that in THAT horse there was no change.
I'm just not sure why you can't see that.
If you would like to do somethink like that with a different horse then go ahead. No one's stopping you.

I am very clear that THAT horse showed no change-what *I*don't understand is why you think it is interesting.

Actually there is something interesting-a shod hoof shows the same impression as an unhealthy bare hoof.

So the shod hoof has the same impact (and possibly damage?) as that of an unhealthy foot.

So I guess there is something interesting. Shoes are not changing things enough to truly protect unhealthy feet?

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:19 PM

Daydream Believer-I'd say about 80% of the hooves I trim now in about 80-100 horses currently started out with something unhealthy about them....

Thanks, a few more opines would make a great average; Come On People!.:D:D:D

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:21 PM

OK fine, you win...my first thought was 80%.

Since I now have DB standing with me to dodge bullets, I will stick with that.:lol:

JHUshoer20

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:22 PM

That is BS...I have seen plenty of hooves I like-but not those.

Your ignorance is showing.
Then I'm in fine company. Obviously the vets in this clinic thought they were ok too. Is only trimmers specifically on this board who see all these problems.

As Mr Stovall would say: "Let the excuses begin"
George

Hony

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:22 PM

Actually there is something interesting-a shod hoof shows the same impression as an unhealthy bare hoof.

So the shod hoof has the same impact (and possibly damage?) as that of an unhealthy foot.

I guess that's one way of looking at it. Again :rolleyes:

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:24 PM

Then I'm in fine company. Obviously the vets in this clinic thought they were ok too. Is only trimmers specifically on this board who see all these problems.

As Mr Stovall would say: "Let the excuses begin"
George

And you and those vets thought this horse looked comfy in his movement?:eek:

wow... no wonder owners turn to chiros, massage and then to woo woo to help horses.

THIS is what is said-unhealthy is now so common it is considered good.

Kind of like accepted obesity in our country.

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:24 PM

Me? Dodge bullets? I thought I left that behind in the Army? ;-)

Seriously...I'd say 80% of the horses I first take on as a trimmer are messed up. Most respond pretty well to good trimming and I'd say that maybe 40-50% persist with some abnormality or continuing issue....whatever the cause is hard to say...nutrition, genetics, metabolic's etc...

It might be that I just get messed up feet to fix because I get called in after people get ticked off at a farrier and decide to call me...hard to say.

grayarabpony

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:29 PM

What I learned from the study was that THAT horse showed no change whether barefoot or not. THAT HORSE. It did not show that either barefoot or shod is better. It demonstrated that in THAT horse there was no change.
I'm just not sure why you can't see that.
If you would like to do somethink like that with a different horse then go ahead. No one's stopping you.

This "study" showed that sticking a shoe on a bad trim isn't going to help anything. Truly earth-shattering.:rolleyes:

The horse needs to be trimmed differently, and probably allowed to go barefoot for a while so that his heel can expand.

Now, I'm not sure why you can't see that.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:30 PM

Seriously...I'd say 80% of the horses I first take on as a trimmer are messed up. I doubt that, but it would depend on how you define messed up.

It might be that I just get messed up feet to fix because I get called in after people get ticked off at a farrier and decide to call me...hard to say.
I know that was meant as a shot toward shoers but I'll help you out by saying most of ALL of our business comes from them getting mad at their guy. This is how everybody gains new work so don't let your head swell too much:rolleyes:
George

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:35 PM

Actually the same CAN be said of trimmers-there are some really bad trimmers out there as well!

The weekend warriors are dropping the quality of work out there without a doubt.

tkhawk

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:36 PM

This "study" showed that sticking a shoe on a bad trim isn't going to help anything. Truly earth-shattering.:rolleyes:

The horse needs to be trimmed differently, and probably allowed to go barefoot for a while so that his heel can expand.

Now, I'm not sure why you can't see that.

Ok showing my ignorance here. But I keep hearing on this site that shoeing causes contracted heels. Why so? Does it constrain hoof growth in a certain way?

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:38 PM

LMH-OK fine, you win...my first thought was 80%.

Thanks Pard! :D

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:40 PM

Ok showing my ignorance here. But I keep hearing on this site that shoeing causes contracted heels. Why so? Does it constrain hoof growth in a certain way?

Start another thread for your question please.:)

BTW, what percentage of "un-healthy" feet are in the U.S.?

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:41 PM

JHUshoer20....see all these problems

What would be your percentage George, of "un-healthy" feet across the U.S.?:).

JHUshoer20

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:49 PM

Ok showing my ignorance here. But I keep hearing on this site that shoeing causes contracted heels. Why so? Does it constrain hoof growth in a certain way?
No,
There is absolutely no deliterious effect from proper shoeing of a hoof. Not ever.

Having said that, I'll say that the Strasserites started the lie of everything they see being contracted. They have attempted to change the definition of what contraction truly is. Many new owners and especially trimmers see contraction from the Strasser model (which covers almost all hooves) and not from truth.

So no. You're not hearing truth you're hearing BUA propaganda.
George

Daydream Believer

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:52 PM

I doubt that, but it would depend on how you define messed up.

If you go back and read what I wrote, you will see what I defined as messed up. :)

I know that was meant as a shot toward shoers but I'll help you out by saying most of ALL of our business comes from them getting mad at their guy. This is how everybody gains new work so don't let your head swell too much:rolleyes:
George

Nope...not a shot at farriers at all but you have to realize that I am the ONLY trimmer in this area. If they call me, they usually have been through several other farriers and have not had results that made them happy. People also call me because they want to try a different style of hoof care provider and know that I specialize in keeping horses sound and comfortable without shoes. Just facts...not bragging or trying to make shoers sound incompetent however many in our area seem to be very marginal on trimming skills.

tkhawk

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:56 PM

Start another thread for your question please.:)

BTW, what percentage of "un-healthy" feet are in the U.S.?

Well I am not a trimmer or a farrier. So I can't go by that. But as a horseperson-I trail ride/camp etc. I ride with folks of all stripes. Some barefoot, some with boots, some shod in front and some shod all the way. Now except my close friends I ride a lot with, I haven't really looked at their feet. But the ones I did, some of them look like crap-but hold up fine for years-completely barefoot. others look great and they go ouchy at rocks and gravel. Percentage wise-I don't know-again not my proffesion-but I would say the opposite-close to 90% or more of the horses I know hold up just fine for their use(in my case trail riding). The owners fiddle around for a while and find what works and then just go out and enjoy their horses. of course it is a very limited and skewed sample and does not include the fiddling around to find what suits the horse part-just holding up long term...

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:02 PM

No,
There is absolutely no deliterious effect from proper shoeing of a hoof. Not ever.

Having said that, I'll say that the Strasserites started the lie of everything they see being contracted. They have attempted to change the definition of what contraction truly is. Many new owners and especially trimmers see contraction from the Strasser model (which covers almost all hooves) and not from truth.

So no. You're not hearing truth you're hearing BUA propaganda.
George

Nonsense...most trimmers I know have nothing to do with the "strasser model" or anything to do with the methods.

JEEZ George, I am all for honest griping but get your facts straight.

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:19 PM

Well I am not a trimmer or a farrier. So I can't go by that. But as a horseperson-I trail ride/camp etc. I ride with folks of all stripes. Some barefoot, some with boots, some shod in front and some shod all the way. Now except my close friends I ride a lot with, I haven't really looked at their feet. But the ones I did, some of them look like crap-but hold up fine for years-completely barefoot. others look great and they go ouchy at rocks and gravel. Percentage wise-I don't know-again not my proffesion-but I would say the opposite-close to 90% or more of the horses I know hold up just fine for their use(in my case trail riding). The owners fiddle around for a while and find what works and then just go out and enjoy their horses. of course it is a very limited and skewed sample and does not include the fiddling around to find what suits the horse part-just holding up long term...

Thanks; good post:cool:

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:23 PM

I doubt that, but it would depend on how you define messed up.
I believe she already did

I know that was meant as a shot toward shoers but I'll help you out by saying most of ALL of our business comes from them getting mad at their guy. This is how everybody gains new work so don't let your head swell too much:rolleyes:
George
DDB's comment was not on her ego. It was the same point that you just made yourself - crappy work sending people running in search of someone better. I doubt most of your new business comes from just 1 farrier or trimmer.

Ok showing my ignorance here. But I keep hearing on this site that shoeing causes contracted heels. Why so? Does it constrain hoof growth in a certain way?
ONE person on this board thinks that. It is not true, never has been true, has been proven to be false, and no amount of 1 person's personal experiences will prove otherwise ;) :)

No,
There is absolutely no deliterious effect from proper shoeing of a hoof. Not ever.
Has that been proven? ;)

Having said that, I'll say that the Strasserites started the lie of everything they see being contracted. They have attempted to change the definition of what contraction truly is. Many new owners and especially trimmers see contraction from the Strasser model (which covers almost all hooves) and not from truth.
Whoa now. There are PLENTY of trimmers who don't have anything to do with Strasser, want nothing to do with Strasser, have never had anything to do with Strasser.

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:31 PM

(actually there are more than one guru that talks about distortion of the hoof being created by shoes...now that said I have seen shod horses without contraction. The problem is I don't know how long shod and if it has time off, etc. In one of Jaime's book (or some writings outside of his book) he has quite a little study on hoof contraction, percentage of contraction, etc-but that IS another topic and one surely to cause a wreck here---just thought I would mention it JB ;))

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 07:55 PM

Ok, I waited a couple hours for a percentile ( % ) to average. As of now I have 3; 50%, 80% and 80%.

We have a 70% average in the U.S., per opinions here, that horses have "un-healthy feet!!!!!!!

According to Bill Moyer, Texas A & M, "70% of horses will have conformational issues that will effect foot health"(paraphrased).:eek:

Also, Moyer-Spenser and Sigafoos( paraphrased) "horses examined to meet 3 parameters of balance~~perpendicular cannon bone/hoof, wall lenghts(medially and laterally) and coronet parallel to the ground'---- "Only 30% percent can be trimmed to meet "ALL Parameters"!!!!!!!!!!!

So for the horse presented to the case study; it was assigned to the portion of the hands on demostrations for analysis. The same happens to trimmers and Farriers on a daily basis.:rolleyes:

The "system" used does not prove right or wrong, it just says "What is presented"!

As stated, leave your 'convictions" at the door and observe objectivtly, use common sense and realism.

If one uses a "70%" horse, in which has been shown in academia to NOT have speciem feet; is it wrong to study "THE NORMAL HORSE"?:confused:

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:05 PM

decorum

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:13 PM

Ok, nobody answered the first time I asked this so here goes again. I certainly noticed a lot more red on the shod hoof on a hard surface vs the bare hoof on a hard surface but everyone says they are both the same. Am I stupid? Does that not mean there is more peripheral loading? More pressure?

And I need to go back to the pics, I know that was a glued on shoe, it was aluminum though, right? I'm assuming it was the steel nails that were the problem and this wasn't a flexible shoe? A flexible shoe would really not be cool in this study.

And all of the feet that I have cared for since birth are beautiful but I have a hell of a lot of craptastic feet I care for that came into my care after many years of not so great trimming or shoeing. I won't say they were shod because I can't verify that, certainly many barefoot horses are neglected too.

I also won't say that the beautiful feet I care for are rock crunchers, they aren't. They live on soft, mushy pastures so aren't conditioned to rocks. The downfall of a soggy climate.

Ann Szolas

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:23 PM

I don't understand your conclusions JD-if you are justifying the hooves you posted it makes no sense.

Those hooves can improve-what people have commented as unhealthy is NOT because of conformation.

Hoof health goes beyond vertical to this and horizontal to that.

I have horses that are on conformation champs-they toe in or out or have limb deviations...but they have healthy structures at the hoof.

A limb deviation does not mean a skinny frog and long toe.;)

I guess we are thinking on different levels. i read science and have empirical experiences. An accumulation and collaboration of both trying to find answers.
Just putting food for thought out; no pissing contests:yes::cool:

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:26 PM

Per academia and thoughts from the opines~~70% is normal and 30% is abnormal? There in lays an epiphany and a conundrum?:eek::eek::eek::eek::confused:

George Myers

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:31 PM

Nonsense...most trimmers I know have nothing to do with the "strasser model" or anything to do with the methods.

Not quite true LMH - alot of what I hear avowedly anti-Strasser trimmers say in respect of the need for holistic care, hoof form and function, the nature of the horse as a herd dwelling prey animal, the importance of as natural a lifestyle as possible etc always has been and still is advocated by Strasser. I could go back through the posts on any number of threads and pull out quotes to illustrate that for you - some even from the most vehemently anti-Strasser people.

You aren't alone in not acknowledging your debt to Strasser - Jaimie Jackson's first edition of his book on founder borrowed liberally from Strasser's academic and clinical work on the subject which she had had translated and shared with him but which he did not reference in anyway. Apparently when challenged he pulled that edition and replaced it - didn't call it a second edition just amended it. Before someone asks 'and you know this how?' - I have seen - indeed own - both versions of the book.

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:33 PM

Not quite true LMH - alot of what I hear avowedly anti-Strasser trimmers say in respect of the need for holistic care, hoof form and function, the nature of the horse as a herd dwelling prey animal, the importance of as natural a lifestyle as possible etc always has been and still is advocated by Strasser. I could go back through the posts on any number of threads and pull out quotes to illustrate that for you - some even from the most vehemently anti-Strasser people.

You aren't alone in not acknowledging your debt to Strasser - Jaimie Jackson's first edition of his book on founder borrowed liberally from Strasser's academic and clinical work on the subject which she had had translated and shared with him but which he did not reference in anyway. Apparently when challenged he pulled that edition and replaced it - didn't call it a second edition just amended it. Before someone asks 'and you know this how?' - I have seen - indeed own - both versions of the book.

Agreed George M.

I have read the translated material and Jackson's old stuff also.

People you have to read the "Old" and the "New" to have a Well Rounded perspective IMO.:cool:

George Myers

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:37 PM

Jaye - when I first read your opening posts I wondered if this had been one of the horses used in the Guelph study.

Can you tell me how the pressure pad was kept on the bare hoof? It looks like casting material.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:40 PM

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:42 PM

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:45 PM

People were advocates of a "natural lifestyle" for horses long before Strasser was born.

People are alive today who advocate a natural lifestyle who have never heard of Strasser.

A high-profile person advocating X does *not* mean that all people who believe in X are followers of said person, or have even necessarily heard of said person.

Thanks for your percentile J.B.; you were apart of making my points that most horses presented to any of us are statistically compromised(70%). Thanks Again!:)

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:47 PM

Not quite true LMH - alot of what I hear avowedly anti-Strasser trimmers say in respect of the need for holistic care, hoof form and function, the nature of the horse as a herd dwelling prey animal, the importance of as natural a lifestyle as possible etc always has been and still is advocated by Strasser. I could go back through the posts on any number of threads and pull out quotes to illustrate that for you - some even from the most vehemently anti-Strasser people.

You aren't alone in not acknowledging your debt to Strasser - Jaimie Jackson's first edition of his book on founder borrowed liberally from Strasser's academic and clinical work on the subject which she had had translated and shared with him but which he did not reference in anyway. Apparently when challenged he pulled that edition and replaced it - didn't call it a second edition just amended it. Before someone asks 'and you know this how?' - I have seen - indeed own - both versions of the book.

I am aware that Jaime and Strasser did start out on the same page-but certainly are not anymore.:eek: I had also heard there were 2 versions of the book-but have never seen the first. It would be interesting though I am sure!

But as JB said, a natural lifestyle is NOT exclusive to Strasser-many classical riding masters spoke of such things long before strasser was in the picture.

Same goes for prey/predator-not a concept that is exclusively Strasser by any means.

George Myers

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:47 PM

Can you describe or do you have a photo - as you do with the shod hoof - to show how the kevlar etc sat on the underside of the hoof?

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:49 PM

What in the world do you mean statistically compromised. I mean, good job using big words and sounding official and all;)

BUT presenting an animal that has elements that are unhealthy today does not mean unhealthy forever.

We could ask how many obese horses there are-that does not mean they are set in being that way forever.

This makes no sense at all and makes this discussion lack a little sense.:confused:

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:50 PM

Can you describe or do you have a photo - as you do with the shod hoof - to show how the kevlar etc sat on the underside of the hoof?

Sure!:D

Barefoot~~
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan121.jpg

With shoe and a medial wedge~~
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan111.jpg

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:52 PM

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:55 PM

Why the medial wedge?

I still don't understand and especially don't understand why the talk has to be in riddles. :confused:

I do need to get your book back to you though!!

J.D.

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:59 PM

Why the medial wedge?

I still don't understand and especially don't understand why the talk has to be in riddles. :confused:

I do need to get your book back to you though!!

the case study was/is an accumulation of techniques stated a while back. :cool:

George Myers

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:13 PM

But as JB said, a natural lifestyle is NOT exclusive to Strasser-many classical riding masters spoke of such things long before strasser was in the picture.

Same goes for prey/predator-not a concept that is exclusively Strasser by any means.

Which classical riding masters?

A lot of what Strasser advocates is not new - surprisingly little in the horse world actually is.

One of the things I find interesting about Strasser is that she looks at the horse in the round. What she did that was unique (as far as I am aware) was to develop the idea of viewing and treating the horse holistically - in respect of how to ride it, train it, its lifestyle etc - and to argue that good hoofcare has to be seen in the context of all the aspects of the animal's being and its environment - including its social context.

That's the debt we owe her - and nothing to be ashamed of in acknowledging it.

I've been around the horse world long enough to know that she has had a big impact on the current interest in 'alternative' approaches to training, management, hoofcare, diet etc - and bizarrely she has become more famous in no small measure because of the vocal antipathy towards her.

But this thread is not about Strasser. Sorry for the diversion Jaye.

decorum

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:13 PM

Sure!:D

Barefoot~~
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan121.jpg

With shoe and a medial wedge~~
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan111.jpg

But that's not the underside of the hoof like GM asked. What did the bottom look like? What is the shoe made of? What about the obvious abundance of red on the shod hoof on a hard surface vs the bare hoof. (for the 3rd time) Thank you,

Ann Szolas

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:20 PM

Which classical riding masters?
Xenophon for starters :D

LMH

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:22 PM

OK I see what you are saying George M-yes I agree. She certainly made the hoof connection that you do not hear about very often.

As as as respecting the nature of the horse-speaking of what is natural to him etc etc-almost every book I have read speaks of it. If you are really interested I can dig up some quotes and we can discuss it off this thread.(Quite overstayed the hijacking welcome here).

I know Alois Podhajskoy (sp?) speaks of it, so does Zettl-I actually just finished a book by Dr Gerd Heuschmann and he evern quotes the German something or other of 1994 and it speaks of these things (ok 1994 is not classical:lol: but just saying it is outside Strasser!;)) I am almost certain that Baucher spoke of respecting the nature of the horse.

Granted none of them took it to the level of what we would call holistic in today's world BUT it has always my understanding that one of the debates of classical vs competitive (for example) speaks of 'natural' gaits.

BUT my point was really that all trimmers are not out there tainted by some wacky perception of contraction, all lowering heels to blood and removing bars. That was where I was going.

Sorry JD...though this even relates-it goes back to the free and natural movement of the horse-how they are meant to move biomechanically...and how improper hoof form will impact how a horse does move.

So...with that carry on!

George Myers

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:33 PM

Sure!:D

Barefoot~~
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan121.jpg

With shoe and a medial wedge~~
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/CoferenceJan111.jpg

Sorry to be a pain Jaye but I am interested in how the fixing material sat in relation to the underside of the wall and the sole. Anything solid enough to hold the pad in place could be said to have altered the way a bare hoof functioned.

Was the medial wedge added to the shod hoof so the pressure pad could function correctly? Presumably there was no similar adjustment in the bare hoof?

Seems to me that people often throw the term 'junk science' around to discredit research they disagree with - and you can pick holes in any research frankly. There will always be data that wasn't collected and correlations that cannot be made, assumptions that skew results etc which is why we need a body of scientific research.

That being said I am disappointed in this study - I don't think it proves anything very much. The most interesting thing conformationally speaking was that one of the men in one of the photos was standing toed in. :)

Any results in this study are in relation to one previously shod and way less than optimal hoof allegedly trimmed using unspecified barefoot methods for a month. The horse, to my hypercritical eye, was not a perfect athletic specimen - albeit a very obliging chap - or chappess.

What would make more sense to me would be to take a perfectly sound, previously unshod horse and test both front feet with the pressure pads glued into well fitting boots with a rubber sole and test the horse at walk and trot on a level concrete surface - straight line and circle; then to shoe said horse and retest immediately on a rubber surface (on concrete) of the same density / thickness as the rubber soled boot.

And then immediately remove shoes and apologise to the horse. :)

decorum

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:44 PM

And then immediately remove shoes and apologise to the horse. :)

LMAO, very good.

Ann Szolas

George Myers

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:04 PM

Xenophon for starters :D

Who of course Strasser quotes in relation to the importance of conditioning the hooves.

I did some research into Xenophon -went back to the book and reread it in relation to longevity- which he makes no mention of or at least not in the translation I read. BUT Bracey Clark did refer to longevity and cited an older text but I can't find out what that was.

That's apropos of nothing very much - what is pertinent to this topic is the fact that Xenophon thought hooves should 'ring' like a bell, the frog should not sit on the ground (ie hoof shouldn't be underslung which reflected the demands of the terrain the horses worked on - but, to prevent these hard upright feet from contracting - he advocated working them hard and conditioning the feet by standing the horse on fist sized stones.

And he did refer to the need to work with the horse's nature - as all good horse people do - often intuitively.

Hony

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:02 PM

What would make more sense to me would be to take a perfectly sound, previously unshod horse and test both front feet with the pressure pads glued into well fitting boots with a rubber sole and test the horse at walk and trot on a level concrete surface - straight line and circle; then to shoe said horse and retest immediately on a rubber surface (on concrete) of the same density / thickness as the rubber soled boot.

And then immediately remove shoes and apologise to the horse. :)

If you were doing this in Guelph I would offer my horse who has been barefoot since Oct. 1, has very nice feet (other than the damn growth rings we talked about on another thread) is sound, and is reasonable.

LMH

Feb. 4, 2009, 06:27 AM

Sorry to be a pain Jaye but I am interested in how the fixing material sat in relation to the underside of the wall and the sole. Anything solid enough to hold the pad in place could be said to have altered the way a bare hoof functioned.

Was the medial wedge added to the shod hoof so the pressure pad could function correctly? Presumably there was no similar adjustment in the bare hoof?

Seems to me that people often throw the term 'junk science' around to discredit research they disagree with - and you can pick holes in any research frankly. There will always be data that wasn't collected and correlations that cannot be made, assumptions that skew results etc which is why we need a body of scientific research.

That being said I am disappointed in this study - I don't think it proves anything very much. The most interesting thing conformationally speaking was that one of the men in one of the photos was standing toed in. :)

Any results in this study are in relation to one previously shod and way less than optimal hoof allegedly trimmed using unspecified barefoot methods for a month. The horse, to my hypercritical eye, was not a perfect athletic specimen - albeit a very obliging chap - or chappess.

What would make more sense to me would be to take a perfectly sound, previously unshod horse and test both front feet with the pressure pads glued into well fitting boots with a rubber sole and test the horse at walk and trot on a level concrete surface - straight line and circle; then to shoe said horse and retest immediately on a rubber surface (on concrete) of the same density / thickness as the rubber soled boot.

And then immediately remove shoes and apologise to the horse. :)

Yes. 100%

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 07:22 AM

Want to Thank Everyone for their comments and opinions. It's very interesting to see/read insights!
Food for thought~~~
#71-"So people start using your brains and educate yourselves beyond one's convictions."

Thanks Again!:):D

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:18 AM

..
And then immediately remove shoes and apologise to the horse. :)

This sentiment is becoming a bit of a tiresome knock-knock joke. Especially for the many who are helped by shoes. Don't forget - the boot that often has to go with the bare foot is also wrought with many problems: sizing, rubbing, falling off... throwing gait off... affecting traction...

In the end - it will come out as a style (as in life style) choice, like English verses western, dressage verses hunt. No real harm to the horse.

Like the other guy looking for a better explanation of the pressure data captured - I am looking for the experts to explain how the desired concavity of the bare foot is expected to picture up differently on the pressure testing - specially on a solid surface.

Both our questions are just hanging out there in our effort to be educated.

LMH

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:28 AM

Food for thought~~~
#71-"So people start using your brains and educate yourselves beyond one's convictions."

Thanks Again!:):D

This conclusion still makes no sense as related to what this study provided.:confused:

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:40 AM

The same foot with and without a shoe tested the same or nearly>

Knock Knock...

LMH

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:43 AM

The same for with and without a shoe tested the same or nearly>

Knock Knock...

ummm did you READ the read? Did you READ why it is NOT a credible study?

Duh. knock knock.

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:48 AM

... Mary Ann...

... Mary Ann who???

The foot with and without a shoe tested nearly the same....

We get that some did not like the shoe or the foot.

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:51 AM

The same foot with and without a shoe tested the same or nearly>

Knock Knock...

correction.

matryoshka

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:58 AM

A percentage is tough, given that we see our own client base so much. Among the horses I trim? I'd say 90% have healthy feet. Now. Before? Can't remember how many of them were presented. The ones who don't have healthy feet have either conformational issues that make them difficult or are recovering from founder.

Of new clients who call? That's a tough one, too, because often the horse hasn't seen a farrier in a long time, so of course the feet aren't looking very good.

I've taken on maybe seven new horses since January 1. None of those had seen a farrier in months, two are foundered. Only one had what I'd call healthy feet--an Arab. Will they get better with regular trimming? Yep. Do I blame the farrier or the trim for the current poor hoof condition? Nope.

Of the horses I take on that have had regular farrier care, I'd say 25% are downright unhealthy (run forward, cracks, WLD, thrush, center sulcus infection). 25% are decent, and 50% need to be tweaked for better balance and wearing. Not all farriers or trimmers to a good job. Not all do a bad job, either.

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:11 AM

hurleycane...

The foot with and without a shoe tested nearly the same....

We get that some did not like the shoe or the foot.

Ah HA!

Someone gets it!

The "Case Study"- one horse ,one foot. Vet/farriers/trimmers are presented "a" case on a one to one basis.

The data presented was what is was. 'What was presented for this case, one horse's foot, presented that day at that time. Who in the business is presented speciem or perfect feet to work with?

The foot on this horse, this case, way of going was on the laterad; with and without shoes. It loaded laterad with appliances(wedges and the such- not shown except with one pic). On hard ground.

With the information presented, there was one piece that is significant; the horse's impact and Load characteristics were on the laterad side of the foot with , without shoes and appliances. nothing more nothing less.

There is data showing both shod , unshod and appliances added on Soft footing. Can we guess what happens? Not much different than the other data presented.

This is not a right versus wrong, shod versus barefoot or speciem feet versus un-healthy feet. It's what was presented for one horse's foot on one day on hard and soft footing. One "case" in a study of many cases.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

LMH

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:43 AM

JD you said the lateral loading was significant.

Was this information that was new to those involved in the study? I actually thought that was already accepted?

I think was has me confused is the presentation...had you said something like

There is an ongoing study that will eventually assess over 700 horses nation wide. This particular horse had what many consider unhealthy structures, specifically a forward running toe, weak heel purchase and a deteriorated frog.

The study showed lateral loading blahblahblah and that the application of a shoe, wedges etc did not significantly change the impact pressure as compared to a bare hoof.

The same study will be conducted comparing healthy bare horses and healthy shod horses.

See-this was original presented to somehow 'prove' that shoes don't change pressure and impact. It was only when several people started commenting on the health of the hoof that the purpose of presentation here changed.

This horse was chosen for having a 'decent' foot-it was only when people questioned that assessment that the purpose of the post changed.

That is the confusion from my end.

I personally think you posted this to try to prove to trimmers that shoes don't change anything and it backfired. ;)

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:57 AM

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:59 AM

LMH....
I personally think you posted this to try to prove to trimmers that shoes don't change anything and it backfired. ;)

I tried to "prove" nothing. Just to show differences. it's not my intention to sway "convictions".
I shoe and trim. Best of both worlds:yes::cool:

One thing I try do is gain more information about feet/legs than I had yesterday. For some, information and knowledge is "yesterday's" news:eek::cool:

matryoshka

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:06 AM

Jaye, I think a few of us "got it." What we'd love to see is a similar test done with a horse who's been barefoot for a while and has a better foot. That's all. I'm not sure anybody would expect a shod hoof to show much different results than a bare foot with long walls.

For example, I can guess that a similar test with the horse I trimmed too short (the one you have pictures of) would show more of a difference between shod and bare. I'm thinking there would be pressure across the sole for that horse. And, there would have been a marked difference in comfort level between bare and shod as well, expecially since he was post-laminitis.

Perhaps the next time you run such a test, you can ask LMH to bring a horse she's been trimming for at least six months for the shod/unshod comparison. So while I find the test interesting, I can't help but wish for slightly different parameters to test. That's what many of us are expressing.

It would be really cool to do a similar test with horses KC, Ramey, Ovnicek, and Chapman have been trimming for a year (and a couple trimmed by you big-name farriers). I'd love to see if these have similar results between shod and unshod and whether there is any significant difference between the trims. The problem would be that different trims can't be judged against each other because the horses' conformations will be different. It would be of limited real usefulness. Still, it would be interesting. Oooh, or have the same horse trimmed by one of the gurus and tested. Then the next month, have a different guru trim the same horse, test, and so forth. That would be really interesting. It would be too funny if the results were the exact same for all of the trimmers, given the differences of opinions about them.

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:11 AM

Jaye, I think a few of us "got it." What we'd love to see is a similar test done with a horse who's been barefoot for a while and has a better foot. That's all. I'm not sure anybody would expect a shod hoof to show much different results than a bare foot with long walls.

For example, I can guess that a similar test with the horse I trimmed too short (the one you have pictures of) would show more of a difference between shod and bare. I'm thinking there would be pressure across the sole for that horse. And, there would have been a marked difference in comfort level between bare and shod as well, expecially since he was post-laminitis.

Perhaps the next time you run such a test, you can ask LMH to bring a horse she's been trimming for at least six months for the shod/unshod comparison. So while I find the test interesting, I can't help but wish for slightly different parameters to test. That's what many of us are expressing.

It would be really cool to do a similar test with horses KC, Ramey, Ovnicek, and Chapman have been trimming for a year (and a couple trimmed by you big-name farriers). I'd love to see if these have similar results between shod and unshod and whether there is any significant difference between the trims. The problem would be that different horses can't be judged the same, so it would be of limited real usefulness. Still, it would be interesting. Oooh, or have the same horse trimmed by one of the gurus and tested. Then the next month, have a different guru trim the same horse, test, and so forth. That would be really interesting. It would be too funny if the results were the exact same for all of the trimmers, given the differences of opinions about them.

Yeah another!

Your post seems to be a valuable theory;someone needs to work on that.:yes::cool:

Hony

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:12 AM

It would be really cool to do a similar test with horses KC, Ramey, Ovnicek, and Chapman have been trimming for a year (and a couple trimmed by you big-name farriers). I'd love to see if these have similar results between shod and unshod and whether there is any significant difference between the trims. The problem would be that different horses can't be judged the same, so it would be of limited real usefulness. Still, it would be interesting. Oooh, or have the same horse trimmed by one of the gurus and tested. Then the next month, have a different guru trim the same horse, test, and so forth. That would be really interesting. It would be too funny if the results were the exact same for all of the trimmers, given the differences of opinions about them.

I would be interested to know if you will have to prepare the hooves for the shoes after they have been barefoot trimmed and how will this affect the outcome of the study.

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:16 AM

Auventera Two

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:21 AM

We have a 70% average in the U.S., per opinions here, that horses have "un-healthy feet!!!!!!!

Some years ago one of the big horse publications ran an article called "Conformation That Works." It was about horses with conformational faults - some of them very serious - that have been sound and functional for many years in high performance disciplines. So the point was - is it fair to say that ONLY perfectly conformed horses, gleaming of text book perfection will be useful and successful year after year? i.e., "hold up for the long haul."

I think there are MANY degrees of "what is correct" when it comes to any animal. We can have goals to try to achieve with hoof health, but the fact is, exceedingly few hooves will ever be picture perfect without a single solitary thing that could be improved or changed to make the hoof better.

But the bigger question - do they HAVE to be? :confused: I'd say no. When people post hoof pictures we all nit pick and point out what could be improved. And that's good. But what really matters at the end of the day is - is that hoof working for that horse, and does the hoof have significant faults that will prevent the hoof for working for the horse well into the future? Can you make changes to improve these significant faults? If yes, then do. If not, then manage as best as possible.

I trimmed a colt the other day that had the crookedst legs I've seen. Extremely sickle hocked on the hinds and toed out on the fronts, but very sweet boy. His feet were nearly perfect though so I'd say that even with the major deviation from "good conformation", the feet are growing properly, they are well balanced, the structures are all strong and healthy. So.......you don't breed the horse (obviously), and you maintain the best you can.

We all work with what the horse was given, keeping tabs on what can be improved versus what cannot. Always work to improve what can be improved, and never accept unhealthy structure when steps can be taken to make it healthier.

webmistress32

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:32 AM

THAT is the common theme among ALL these hoof threads - the quality of hoofcare, in general, in this country, SUCKS.

yes. yes. and ... yes!

... to the point that UnHealthy is "Normal"

sad.

decorum

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:53 AM

I'm going to try one more time. What kind of shoe was used? Was it a flexible glue on or a rigid shoe?

Ann Szolas

BornToRide

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:
THAT is the common theme among ALL these hoof threads - the quality of hoofcare, in general, in this country, SUCKS.
yes. yes. and ... yes!

... to the point that UnHealthy is "Normal"

sad.

Not just here, in other countries as well. Experienced it with my sisters horse in Germany - horse was not shod until he was about 6 and was diagnosed with navicular about 2 years later at only 8 years old. Neither farrier, nor vet saw anything wrong with the obviously unhealthy hoof form that caused the navicular problems.

It really sounds like most people, even many professionals, do not know what a healthy hoof really looks like and it is also being perpetuate by what one sees in countless horse publication

Bottom line - there seems to be a general lack of understanding of what healthy hoof form looks like and how to create this from unhealthy hoof form.

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:10 AM

I'm going to try one more time. What kind of shoe was used? Was it a flexible glue on or a rigid shoe?

Ann Szolas

Aluminum shoe with rim pad built in and a cuff . Sigafoos.

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:23 AM

decorum

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:26 AM

Aluminum shoe with rim pad built in and a cuff . Sigafoos.

Thank you! :)

decorum

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:29 AM

Barefoot in soft footing and the medial heel doesn't register:eek:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/Barefootwalksoftfooting.png

It doesn't register much but the little bit of pressure that is there is right where that rolled inward, forward heel is. At least it does have a little sole pressure. ;)

Ann Szolas

J.D.

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:32 AM

decorum... At least it does have a little sole pressure. ;)

..

Is sole pressure good for gait analysis of sound versus un-sound?:confused:

hard and or soft footings?:confused:

BornToRide

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:34 AM

That and it could also be that the horse is uncomfortable loading that heel, because the heel is weaker due to lack of stimulation thanks to shoes and/or nearby possible frog infection.

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:37 AM

Is sole pressure good for gait analysis of sound versus un-sound?:confused:

hard and or soft footings?:confused:

A big thick honking concave sole might delight in some sole pressure, No??? At least that is what I surmise from many many opinions....

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:38 AM

A big thick honking concave sole might delight in some sole pressure, No??? At least that is what I surmise from many many opinions....

Just to add to this - big thick honking & concave sole or get the boots and or pad/shoe!!!!!:)

I say, Can I get a witness!?!?!?!

hurleycane

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:49 AM

Here is another "For what it is Worth"~~~

Shod at a walk in Soft Footing

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/flatshodsoftfooting.png

Barefoot in soft footing and the medial heel doesn't register:eek:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/conference/Barefootwalksoftfooting.png

Verrrrry INteresting that there appears to be pressure in the frog area but not under the tip of the coffin bone in the shod and soft footing... Might account for the ease of movement in this a now foundered/laminitic horse????

Am I close to understanding this??????

rmh

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:50 AM

No matter how this type of test is done the results will be skewed by placing something between the foot and the ground. However I am glad to see people thinking and looking for ways to measure stuff we argue about. I believe the Univ. of Texas has a ramp with pressures sensors built in. It would measure the force applied to the ground not the forces applied to the hoof and leg.

rmh

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:52 AM

It still will come down to doing what you think is best for your horse in what ever endeavor you choose.

Larbear

Feb. 4, 2009, 12:34 PM

Condition of hooves was just fine. [edit]
Excellent thread Jaye.
George

Can you explain what is so "fine" about the feet? Are you talking about the condition of the hoof wall?

decorum

Feb. 4, 2009, 03:43 PM

Is sole pressure good for gait analysis of sound versus un-sound?:confused:

hard and or soft footings?:confused:

I meant that sole pressure is good for the horse and should not appear on hard footing, obviously. Frog pressure, yes, sole no. You know us wacky barefooters, anti-peripheral loading and all that. ;)

Ann Szolas

Catersun

Feb. 4, 2009, 11:18 PM

I am never going to have time to read this whole thread (baby and toodler and all), bu I wanna know what the deal is cause I tried to follow it and now I have 11 pages to read.. so... someone please give me a quicksummary of what the pics were about??? pretty please?

LarkspurCO

Feb. 5, 2009, 01:53 AM

Well since you asked so nicely and said "pretty please" I'll give it a whack. See page four if you want to get more details (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=188330&page=4).

Essentially, a horse was picked for a study on load balance:

"A couple of weekends ago there was a 2 day conference at a Veterinarian teaching hospital. For this conference a horse was needed that was barefoot. The pictured horse was used due to he's nature and lack of issues. Oneof the demonstration/hands on portions of the 2-day conference was to signify whether a shod foot is any different than a barefoot. The difference being Impact and Load characteristics. To do this, the Force Measuring membrane was applied between the ground and foot and the foot and shoe. The Membrane had attachment to a data collection module and module downloaded to a computer for data analysis..."

Pretty colored pictures illustrated the load balance measured in the horse's left front walking on a hard surface. The analysis showed no "SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE" in a barefoot horse and a shod horse in their Impact and Load Characteristics.

The photos presented on p. 1 generated a lot of discussion and questions about the validity of the conclusions, because many felt the hoof was contracted and unhealthy and therefore not representative of a healthy barefoot horse.

However, the goal of the study wasn't to prove or disprove anything about the good or bad of barefoot or shoes. It was just to address the change in load bearing with and without shoes on one horse in a controlled environment.

I think there was also discussion about borrowed books and shared libations in there somewhere as well.

Hope this helps.

J.D.

Feb. 5, 2009, 06:57 AM

Wanted to Thank All for their discussions!

It has been fun. Also disturbing.

Fun~~ to see and read trains of thought

Disturbing~~ to see and read trains of thought

We are all working to find solutions to the "enigmas" of foot and leg health. Thoughts from empirical and academic experiences should be combined to find solutions to problems/issues. Neither can or should be discounted.

When things are presented "Outside" the "comfort zones" of preconceived notions it creates chaos; "On the kusp of chaos, change is created":eek::winkgrin::cool:

Thanks Again!

The End.

Tom Bloomer

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:09 AM

However, the goal of the study wasn't to prove or disprove anything about the good or bad of barefoot or shoes. It was just to address the change in load bearing with and without shoes on one horse in a controlled environment.Measure all the ground forces you want. That will give you information about "ground forces." What they are not measuring is the forces inside the hoof; weight and leverage. Barefoot or shod the opposing ground forces are always the same. Weight is multiplied or divided by leverage. You cannot directly measure these forces because in order to do so you have to get inside the hoof itself to take the measurements.

However, it is possible using simple physics to indirectly quantify what is happening with weight and leverage forces. This is the science of biomechanics. Until we can implant sensors to DIRECTLY measure the weight and leverage forces inside the horse while it is moving, biomechanics is the ONLY science we have that can give us consistent results.

An alternative would be taking very precise before and after radiographs and using this information for measurement, then adjusting trim and shoe placement accordingly. Good luck getting that to happen for every horse in your hoof care practice. :yes:

matryoshka

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:29 AM

Jaye, was the horse given a 4 point trim the last time he was trimmed? It's bugging me that the highest loads are at the toe pillars and heels. I've been wracking my brain to think of what "natural trimming protocol" would do this. Came up with the 4 point trim.

If he wasn't trimmed according to the 4-point trim, I find it interesting that in the 4 weeks since his last trim, he's worn his feet in a way to experience the greatest pressure at toe and heel pillars.

Catersun

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:39 AM

Thanks larkspur... maybe just maybe I'll get a chance to wallow through some of this later. Most intrigueing... I'll be curious to follow this discussion if they do it with a "healthy" barefoot horse.

LMH

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:46 AM

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:49 AM

But the photos look nothing like a 4-point trim.:confused:

If the horse was poorly balanced to begin with, and 4pt trim put on 4 weeks ago, then especially given the way the horse moves (and presumably wears feet much more unevenly), it wouldn't surprise me if he wore off the tell-tale signs of a 4pt trim :(

rmh

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:52 AM

Possibly those areas are the most dense therefore deform the least and would be where the forces are concentrated.:confused::yes:

matryoshka

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:58 AM

Four weeks out it is tough to see what the trim might have been, other than that the wall does not appear to have been rolled. A farrier who used to be in my area does the 4-point trim and taught me. Four weeks after a trim the feet didn't look that different from this horse's feet, except that he would have lowered the heels.

He would rocker the toe a bit, but that would grow down to the ground surface by the next trim. The horses he trimmed this way did pretty well under heavy work loads, and he didn't leave long toes the way some people do. However, a few horses would be sore for days after a trim. Those became some of my early clients. ;) Farrier was a nice guy and didn't mind me trimming some of the horses in this large account. He moved out of the area shortly thereafter, and I think he wanted me to take on the whole barn. I didn't choose to do so.

The thing is, a month or two after shoes are pulled isn't a great deal of time to see many changes in growth based on a change in the trim. And if it was the same farrier who shod him, then he'd have kept the balance the same. So new growth would follow old growth.

matryoshka

Feb. 5, 2009, 09:00 AM

Possibly those areas are the most dense therefore deform the least and would be where the forces are concentrated.:confused::yes:I think this is the principle the 4-point trim is based upon. That in certain environments, the rest of the hoof wears down leaving these pillars of support. That's why I find the force-fabric results interesting. It would make sense if the horse was trimmed that way. If the horse wasn't trimmed that way, then I'd like to hear farriers' thoughts as to why the "pillars" appear to have experienced the greatest pressures.

rmh

Feb. 5, 2009, 10:24 AM

This was mentioned before, way back I believe, it would be interesting to see a shod horse and horses trimmed by the differnt methods just after a trim and then again four weeks later and see if or where the force dispersion changes.

matryoshka

Feb. 5, 2009, 10:48 AM

This interests me as well. If they do such tests at New Bolton, I'd be happy to bring a horse I've been trimming for a while to see how he stacks up. I've got the perfect candidate, once he's done his "transition" from shoes. He's a calm OTTB. He's high/low, so that might be of added interest or it might make him a poor candidate for such testing. If that were the case, I'd bring another horse.

BTW, his "transition" is more because the farrier left his toes too long and I want to grow out all the dished walls and cracks. Otherwise, "transition" in my book lasts about as long as it takes to grow the nails holes out. If there are flares or the feet are badly run forward, then "transition" means the length of time it takes to grow out the flares. It can take as long as growing in an entirely new hoof capsule. With luck the horse is comfortable throughout the process, at the latest as soon as the nail holes have grown out. JMHO. I'm not a big name trimmer and don't have pixie dust on my tools. :D

hurleycane

Feb. 5, 2009, 11:35 AM

Just my guess... but if the walls of the foot are planed off level, you will always get higher pressures at the "4 pillars" when the horse is moving [on a hard surface that is - on a soft surface the surface will give to the pressure.]. If you want the pressures to be even across the "entire" plane of the contact wall surface - you are gonna have to rocker the entire bottom of the foot.

hurleycane

Feb. 5, 2009, 12:03 PM

Speaking of flat planes...Check this out:

Take your coffee mug and try to walk it on the desk, back to front.

Now do it with a little lateral pressure...

Pretty interesting.

Do it again with a cloth between the cup and the desk.

You will replicate the pattern in the test.

Cool.

Have no idea what it means for soundness...

Pippigirl

Feb. 5, 2009, 12:58 PM

Can you (JHUshoer20)explain what is so "fine" about the feet? Are you talking about the condition of the hoof wall?

Not sure if this post got missed, but I would be interested to hear from either JHUshoer or J.D. as well.

BornToRide

Feb. 5, 2009, 01:19 PM

I think what gets totally missed here is the fact that many horses naturally load their hooves unevenly thanks to how the musculo-skeletal system influences how they step.

That's the reason most hinds tend to flare laterally - the hind legs tend to be more turned out, which makes the horse step first on the medial edge befaore the lateral edge makes contact with the ground. Hence the medial edge gets more pressure, grows thicker and wears more compared to the lateral edge. The degree of flaring of course varies greatly among horses, but it is a general trend.

In the fronts, the legs are generally pulled together more by the tighter chest muscles, which causes the lateral edges to be loaded more, creating a tendency for more medial hoofwall flaring. If you see lateral flaring, the horse is usually slightly more toed out.

All you have to do is watch all sorts of horses move for a while at liberty or someone leading the horse and that's exactly what you will see. It is very predictable. Of course all this assumes the the trim is balanced to internal hoofstructures, since mediolateral imbalances from trims can also create excessive flaring.

LMH

Feb. 5, 2009, 01:38 PM

Not sure if this post got missed, but I would be interested to hear from either JHUshoer or J.D. as well.

Yes, what does make these feet decent?

reillyshoe

Feb. 5, 2009, 05:53 PM

The force measuring membrane, as well as the shoeing of this foot represents my work. The force system project is funded by the University of Pennsylvania's Veterinary School and the Laminitis Institute. I would make a couple of comments about the discussion here. Nobody knows what constitutes an optimal loading pattern for a foot. Furthermore, the true effect of various horseshoe types and trimming patterns is not fully understood. The purpose of this project is to start providing objective evidenced based data towards answering these questions.
The horse in question here was provided for this demonstration, it was not selected for any criteria other than availability. This horse happened to be barefoot, the shoes having been removed about a month prior to the conference. The purpose of this demonstration was not to determine what is correct for this horse, merely to assess the response to various ideas of "balance". This horse landed heel first on presentation, impacting the ground with the outside heel first. I trimmed the foot as conservatively as possible (to limit changing the wearing patterns) and applied a glue on shoe with the sensor. The horse continued to land on the outside heel, and these pressures (along with recordings of the intensity and location of the center of pressure and location of breakover) were recorded.
There are many theories about how to balance a foot in a medial-lateral plane. One theory is to use the solar margin of the coffin bone (this was our starting point). Another is to trim the foot until it impacts the ground in a flat manner (in the medial-lateral plane). I added a medial wedge to examine the differences these two theories might yield, and there were differences in the location of pressures at impact, loading, and in the location of the breakover point.
We also examined these shoeing protocols on differing footings, and these footings also changed the impact pressures, the loading pressures, and (in some instances) the breakover location. These were repeated after the addition of uniform solar support (an injection mold urethane; Equipak) on both footings, again yielding differing results.
After the shod trials were finished, the shoe was removed. As the sensor was still glued to the sole by the urethane, we evaluated the horse barefoot at the stance and at the walk.

The conclusion that was obvious to those in attendance is that there are several variables influencing the pressures exerted on the foot. Some of these were obvious, and some were a bit surprising. I was surprised to see that a barefoot horse would load peripherally on hard footing, even with the concavity of the sole filled with urethane. I was surprised that the shod foot with full sole support landed laterally on hard footing, but landed evenly on soft footing. As I have used this system more frequently, I am learning that many of my preconcieved notions about foot loading were not correct.
There have been a few observations by posters here that are incorrect with regard to this horse. For one, this horse landed heel first in all trials, not toe first as one observed. Another poster commented that the medial toe was loaded, and this has led to a thickening of the hoofwall. This original observation is also not correct, as there was not (in any trial) more force on the medial toe than on the lateral toe. The secondary conclusion (this leads to a thickened hoofwall) must therefore be explained (if it indeed true) by another theory.

Everyone in hoofcare has a theory, and that's absolutely fine. The trouble is that I have yet to see anyone who has an answer for every horse. I have no idea what constitutes a "correct" trim for this horse, much less what constitutes a correct shoe. What I find even more interesting is that there are 12 pages of theories about what should be done, and nobody has even asked if the horse is sound, or WHY this horse is lame. It seems everyone has more interest in theories for creating a perfect "specimen" foot (Jaye's term, and a good one).

Patrick Reilly
Chief of Farrier Services
New Bolton Center

LMH

Feb. 5, 2009, 05:58 PM

Well now THAT was an interesting read reillyshoe.

Thank you for taking the time to share the details of THIS horse and why you chose to do what you did.

Feb. 5, 2009, 06:04 PM

The horse in question here was provided for this demonstration, it was not selected for any criteria other than availability.
Thank you. Having had that info earlier would have prevented a lot of the "arguing" that ensued from the comment that the horse was chosen because he had a "decent foot" :)

What I find even more interesting is that there are 12 pages of theories about what should be done, and nobody has even asked if the horse is sound, or why this horse is lame. On the contrary - several of us commented that the horse looked unsound when barefoot, and a bit less unsound shod. I know I for one commented on how his whole body seemed to be involved in protecting something - feet, bother body parts, I couldn't tell you, nor could I tell you whether sore feet were causing body issues, or whether body issues were part of the "undecent" presentation of his feet :)

It seems everyone has more interest in theories for creating a perfect "specimen" foot (Jaye's term, and a good one).Sure, several folks gave opinions on why these feet were not "ideal", but unfortunately we never got an answer from JD on why he (apparently) thinks these feet were "decent", and what "decent" means to him.

All that aside, thank you VERY much for providing this information! It certainly clears up a lot of misconceptions (without corrections) on what this test was intended to do.

BornToRide

Feb. 5, 2009, 07:34 PM

Another poster commented that the medial toe was loaded, and this has led to a thickening of the hoofwall. This original observation is also not correct, as there was not (in any trial) more force on the medial toe than on the lateral toe. The secondary conclusion (this leads to a thickened hoofwall) must therefore be explained (if it indeed true) by another theory.
Not the medial toe, unless this is what you mean by medial hoofwall - I was talking about the medial hoof wall. I would like to see a good video of this horse moving straight towards the video camera that would show how this horse loads his hooves - then we'll talk some more ;)
Everyone in hoofcare has a theory, and that's absolutely fine. The trouble is that I have yet to see anyone who has an answer for every horse. I have no idea what constitutes a "correct" trim for this horse, much less what constitutes a correct shoe. What I find even more interesting is that there are 12 pages of theories about what should be done, and nobody has even asked if the horse is sound, or WHY this horse is lame. It seems everyone has more interest in theories for creating a perfect "specimen" foot (Jaye's term, and a good one).
My hunch would be that the horse is unsound primarily for the following reasons, any or all:

This horse has considerable heel contraction on the left front with a possible deep seated frog infection which can be easily determined by exploring the crack in the sulcus of the frog with a hoof pick. If the horse flinches, there's an infection present. Was this done?
Thanks to a rather deformed hoof (heel contraction), this horse may also suffer from navicular syndrome.
In addition it looks like the sole has very little concavity, along with a possibly thin sole, which would also contribute to soreness!

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:08 PM

One cannot judge a horse's *actual* soundness, or lack thereof, simply by looking at what is or is not correct looking in the feet.

It's painfully obvious to me though that in the video of this horse just walking that he is not sound. Maybe not head- or hip-bobbing "lame", but he's for sure not sound.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:17 PM

Not the medial toe, unless this is what you mean by medial hoofwall - I was talking about the medial hoof wall. I would like to see a good video of this horse moving straight towards the video camera that would show how this horse loads his hooves - then we'll talk some more ;)

The purpose of the study and the force measuring membrane WAS to record how the horse loaded the hoof!

I presume this is vastly more accurate than anyone's naked-eye assessment of a video.

BornToRide

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:30 PM

The purpose of the study and the force measuring membrane WAS to record how the horse loaded the hoof!

I presume this is vastly more accurate than anyone's naked-eye assessment of a video.From the photos shared here it is not clear to me whether or not this experiment recorded which side was loaded first. It appears to only show the overall load not a progression of load as it spreads over the whole hoof.

J.D.

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:35 PM

From the photos shared here it is not clear to me whether or not this experiment recorded which side was loaded first. It appears to only show the overall load not a progression of load as it spreads over the whole hoof.

It takes a vid to show that. The stand alone pics were confusing enough for some!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

J.D.

Feb. 5, 2009, 08:44 PM

JB....
Sure, several folks gave opinions on why these feet were not "ideal", but unfortunately we never got an answer from JD on why he (apparently) thinks these feet were "decent", and what "decent" means to him.

"Decent" is relative. I have seen worse and I have seen better.

My daily practice is horses with issues in the field. Mr. Reilly's practice is horses with issues in a clinical setting. Relative of what has been seen over the years

All that aside, thank you VERY much for providing this information! It certainly clears up a lot of misconceptions (without corrections) on what this test was intended to do.

Mr. Reilly is more eloquent than I. :yes::D:cool:

reillyshoe

Feb. 5, 2009, 09:10 PM

Here is a time force graph from seven strides at the walk on hard footing. The red line is the force on the outside of the hoof, and the green line is the force on the inside of the hoof:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s224/reillyshoe/Picture1-5.png

Note that the red line spikes earlier in the stride, as that side of the hoof impacts earlier. Aslo note that the red line (lateral) is greater than the green line (medial) in virtually every portion of every stride.

J.D.

Feb. 5, 2009, 09:43 PM

Here is a time force graph from seven strides at the walk on hard footing. The red line is the force on the outside of the hoof, and the green line is the force on the inside of the hoof:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s224/reillyshoe/Picture1-5.png

Note that the red line spikes earlier in the stride, as that side of the hoof impacts earlier. Aslo note that the red line (lateral) is greater than the green line (lateral) in virtually every portion of every stride.

Was that barefoot or shod?

An honest question, because I have not seen the "Force" graphed before

reillyshoe

Feb. 5, 2009, 09:50 PM

shod, flat on hard footing. T

grayarabs

Feb. 5, 2009, 10:11 PM

RS - thanks for the info. Much to think about. Curious about the horse - what is his history - ie months/years prior to the experiment. Was someone else shoeing the horse for years - or were you - hard to understand. What kind of shoes had he been wearing?
Pads? Discipline? Age? Breed? Any particular reason he was shod?
Any issues at all health/lame-wise?

J.D.

Feb. 5, 2009, 10:11 PM

shod, flat on hard footing. T

An interpretation of the graph from my point of view_-_

red line shows one spike at the begging but gains a double spike at the end; also the spikes tend to even out and start to reduce.....

green line shows one spike at the begging and takes a suptle decline in the intensity and then starts to show a double spike........

Thus within 8 seconds the priopreceptors started kicking in and the foot/horse became more comfortable. JMO.

LarkspurCO

Feb. 6, 2009, 12:39 AM

You can also see that this horse tends to slightly load the medial edge of this front hoof more. The hoofwall on the inside is thicker :)

So much for your theory. :p The graph clearly shows the opposite.

JHUshoer20

Feb. 6, 2009, 06:38 AM

Can you explain what is so "fine" about the feet? Are you talking about the condition of the hoof wall?

Not sure if this post got missed, but I would be interested to hear from either JHUshoer or J.D. as well.

I think we can all agree that I've probably said some much worse things around here.

However, since in the opinion of the moderators that post was too inflammatory:eek: you people can have this discussion to yourselves:sigh:
George

LMH

Feb. 6, 2009, 06:41 AM

reillyshoe

Feb. 6, 2009, 07:34 AM

The graph patterns are exactly the same, although the sampling is shorter (fewer strides). Forgive me for not posting it, but it is a lot of work.
Someone noted earlier that there appears to be more red (high pressures) in the shod foot than in the barefoot. This system was not calibrated for velocity in this trial. It was obvious (at least in person) that this horse was moving faster when shod than barefoot. A thousand pound horse moving faster creates more pressure (and force), and that is one possible explanation that makes a direct side by side comparison suspect.

hurleycane

Feb. 6, 2009, 07:41 AM

Incredible stuff! ANd thanks for all taking the time to put it here. We (owners) really do need the info.

matryoshka

Feb. 6, 2009, 08:08 AM

Pat, if you happen to do this test in our area again, I'd be happy to provide a well behaved, barefoot horse. These tests interest me greatly, and there is so much potential for what you can measure with that force fabric! I can bring you some run forward feet for comparison, too.

I know your objections to the term "balancing feet." ;) I don't know how to talk about how to trim feet for an individual without using the word "balance".

Jumpin_Horses

Feb. 6, 2009, 08:19 AM

Everyone in hoofcare has a theory, and that's absolutely fine. The trouble is that I have yet to see anyone who has an answer for every horse.

:yes::yes:;):winkgrin::yes::yes:

matryoshka

Feb. 6, 2009, 08:31 AM

Now I want to see more tests on more horses!! Too bad I'm not wealthy. :no: Then again, if I were rich, I wouldn't be out there trimming in 15 deg weather. ;)

One of my biggest questions is whether to trim the hoof to land flat or to follow the plane of the coffin bone (medial/laterally). I've seen numerous arguments and different theories, but nobody seems to know definitively what is best for the horse. I end up using trial and error to see what works for the individual, but that is not optimal.

I do think that we try to find out what is "correct" for the individual horse over time. We have to start with some sort of theory of what will work, and then adjust from there based on how the horse responds. I use growth and wear patterns between trims for feedback, in addition to how the horse goes.

More test data would be awesome. Especially on hind feet. I'd love to bring that club-footed yearling in (the one with 4 clubs). She's now putting weight on her heels in the back and has gotten more comfortable. She didn't grow nearly as much heel between trims last time was actually able to bring the hinds forward for me to finish them. Woohoo!