Does one laminitic attack 9 years ago mean ... Update, post 39

[ljc]

My semi-retired TB had a single attack of laminitis nine years ago. We figured it was caused by our mis-guided efforts to keep him in "hunter" weight for shows. He's always been a hard keeper so we were giving him lots of Purina Equine Senior plus All-in-One (lots of molasses). He made a full recovery (thankfully there was no rotation), continued showing for seven more years and all has been fine. I switched him to Strategy back then and have happily fed it until now. No "sweet" feeds, per se. His hay diet has always been a combination of alfalfa/orchard/oat hay.

Fast forward to now. He's having major dental problems and will be having some decaying teeth removed (he's 21). He's having a very hard time eating hay so I'm "upping" his supplemental feed to help make up the difference. Since he's always been on the lean side, it won't take much for him to go from lean to down-right skinny. Plus, he's about the pickiest eater you've ever seen. Once the teeth are out, I'm assuming he'll continue to have some difficulty with hay, but maybe I'm wrong.

My question is - for all my other older horses, I give them Triple Crown Senior to help keep weight on. They love it. But I would consider this to be a sweet feed, right? Therefore, I shouldn't give it to Benjamin, right? Or can I?

Should I up the Strategy (he's already getting 5-8 pounds a day)? I'm also giving him some alfalfa/orchard grass pellets and some oat hay pellets, as well as steam-rolled flat oats. I've switched all my other horses to Triple Crown products -- would Triple Crown Complete be comparable to Strategy?

I've thought about adding beet pulp but even after reading the gazillion threads here about it, I'm still not sure if I can make that work. I don't go out the same time every day and sometimes I stop by on way other places, making it impossible to soak it overnight. If I started soaking it as soon as I arrived, what would be the minimum time needed to be "safe"? And given a shorter soak time, would shredded BP be better than pellets?

The barn manager is willing to switch Benjamin from hay to pellets, as well, but they won't soak the pellets and I'm hesitant to feed any pellets dry. I always make a "mash" of whatever I feed my horses.

I'm making myself crazy over this. It's so hard when the horse is boarded elsewhere and so easy with all the critters here at home.

Any suggestions would be MOST appreciated. This horse is the love of my life and I hate seeing him not happy.

[mandalea]

This is a very interesting topic.

My gelding had laminitis. Not sure when, but he did, and I never thought of it coming back.

But I'll have to keep an eye on him, since the grass is coming in really green this year.

I would think maybe trying some feed that has little to no gluten, because I thought this was one of the contributing factors..?:confused:

[BornToRide]

I don't think we have enough info you to say for sure. It could be simply because you have a sugar/starch sensitive horse, but it could also be that one attack made him perhaps slightly more sensitive to have another.

However, I do believe that if you have his diet tightly controlled (low NSCs with magnesium and other vitamins and minerals as needed), he should not experience another one.

Because there's seems to be an increased risk with soy for such horses (see soy threads here), even though it is touted as safe for EMS horses in some cases, I would not chance it and also avoid feeding soy of any kind.'

My mini had several laminitis flare up as the old place where he was staying because the owners kept ignoring my feeding guidelines and fed him too much of the wrong stuff, including after dinner mints in possibly larger quantities. He has not had another episode since he was moved last March and is doing very well.

[Simkie]

Triple Crown Senior is absolutely NOT a sweet feed. It is very low in NSC. If you've got to feed a lot of concentrates, it's probably one of the BEST things you can give. It's definitely safer than Strategy OR oats.

I'd look into a low NSC hay cube (like the Ontario Dehy cubes) and ditch the Strategy and oats and switch to TC Senior. Soak the cubes and soak the Senior and you should have a palatable, easy to consume diet that should not set off laminitis.

[BornToRide]

Simkie,
you won't believe how little it can take for sugar sensitive horses to react to any starch/sugar they may be geeting in a feed. The highlighted items in TC Senior below I would not want to see in a processed feed for a EMS horse, especially if the horse's hooves also show me warning signs that they are affected:


Alfalfa Meal, Shredded Beet Pulp, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Hulls, Cane Molasses, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Distillers Dried Grains, Salt, Flaxseed, Ground Limestone, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Defluorinated Phosphate, Rice Bran, Sodium Bicarbonate, Dried Yeast Fermentation Soluble

[Simkie]

Triple Crown Senior is 11.7 % NSC, which is one of the lowest you'll be able to find, period. It's even lower than their Low Starch.

http://triplecrownfeed.com/news-soluble-carbohydrate-levels.php

It is CERTAINLY less than oats and Strategy. If the horse isn't foundering on his current diet, he sure won't founder on TC Senior.

[BornToRide]

That's fine - I still would not feed it because I have seen it cause trouble in sugar sensitive horses.

[ljc]

This is why I go nuts!!!! Person A says X, Person B says Y. And both sound equally logical. I know, when in doubt, ask vet but I use two different vets for Benjamin and Vet A says X, Vet B says Y.

Complicating the situation even further, I had blood work run last month, which showed horse's BUN level to be a tad high (only one number "higher" than normal) and so Vet A (who ran the blood) said I should lower Benjamin's protein level to keep his supplemental feed under 10% protein. (Because Benjamin hates all hay, including alfalfa, vet felt the one feeding of alfalfa hay in am wasn't a problem; other hay fed is orchard at lunch, oat at pm).). So, I temporarily stopped the Strategy (he was getting the 14% protein) and switched to lower protein pellets. The oats are also low in protein.

So, how to keep Vet A happy with low protein feed, and Vet B happy with low sugar feed? And I'm not even mentioning Vet C (the equine dentist) who now gets a vote based on current state of teeth!!!!

Not to mention the Barn Manager who, like all BM's, has her own set of opinions on how to feed horses and who loves to disagree with everything I've done (but since I've owned this horse for nearly 16 years, I'm standing pretty firm. Except in reality, she's the one overseeing his three meals and I'm only responsible for his one "supplemental" feeding.

[Simkie]

I encourage you to go look up BTR's posts before taking her word as gospel. She's a zealot who doesn't let "facts" or "science" stand in the way of what she holds to be true :rolleyes:

I'd also look at the amount of protein you're feeding in the WHOLE diet, rather than just a piece of it, and consider how MUCH you're feeding as well. For example, I can feed one pound of a 30% protein product or 3 pounds of a 10% protein product--total protein is the same.

Perhaps a call with a nutritionist is in order. The feed companies usually have someone you can speak with (but they will, of course, recommend their own products) or perhaps you cold find an independent equine nutritionist at one of the university vet hospitals.

[Coreene]

Or you could ask your vet.

[jaimebaker]

Or you could ask your vet.

Did you not read her posts about her vets???

[Dalemma]

I have always been told that a horse that has foundered is always more at risk to founder than a horse that has never foundered. So I would be cautious about what and how much you feed him and I would not let him get overweight.

But what ever you are doing is working as you have gone 9 years with out a repeat......so I am not sure I would make any changes at this point in time.

I would try to keep his diet low in both ESC's and WSC's and starch .......do not use NSC/s as a guide as it is not as accurate at determining sugars.......that means no oats, corn, barley.....basically no grain....it is about 20 to 30% in sugars.......no carrots, no apples....same thing high in sugars.

I would consider getting your horse tested for IR.......possibly test for cushings.

Dalemma

[Coreene]

Did you not read her posts about her vets???

Yup. And therein is another part of her issue, dontcha think?

[BornToRide]

I encourage you to go look up BTR's posts before taking her word as gospel. She's a zealot who doesn't let "facts" or "science" stand in the way of what she holds to be true :rolleyes:
Yes, silly me, I actually listen to what the horses tell me and what works for them. :rolleyes:

And one of my friends almost lost her two Arabs to severe founder because neither vet nor farrier gave her any diet advise.

Fact is that you lower the risk of developing laminitis (and other health issues) by feeding a more species specific low NSC diet. Horses in the wild thrive on a High fiber, low sugar diet and easily move over 20 miles per day. Horses were not designed to eat cereal grains.

Unfortunately vets often ar also not very well versed when it comes to nutrition because it is not a subject they spend a lot of time on in vet school.

Is your horse resisting eating hay because he is having trouble chewing now? If so, use soaked hay pellets instead and supplement as needed.

[jaimebaker]

Yup. And therein is another part of her issue, dontcha think?

Then why even pose the question???? It took me 4 vets to diagnose a founder on a horse and even the one that figured it out wasn't very well versed in it. I'll ask a farrier before I ask a vet when it comes to hooves, thanks.


My mare foundered 11 years ago. Nobody ever brought up diet outside of grass. She was miserable until it got diagnosed properly (because I didn't know what to do without a diagnosis) and then we had to deal with abscesses. Got her through it. The next spring, she was dead lame again (at this point she was not on a lot of pasture at all and a minimal diet). Got her through that. The next spring she was dead lame again. So after 3 years and completely moving her to a different pasture she has not had any more episodes (so 8 years clear, KNOCK ON WOOD!). The pasture she is on now is slightly smaller than what she was on then but the grass is not nearly as abundant. I too have always been told that once they founder they are more likely to have it re-occur. Just like colic. Don't know if that's an old wives tale or not. Just like all the vets and farriers tell me absolutely no alfalfa on her either. I've had xrays pulled on her and rotation was tiny but my god, the mare couldn't move when she was in the middle of the episodes. Back then I didn't know nearly as much about diet and causes. Now I try to educate myself as best as possible because unfortunately, my vets aren't as knowledgeable as I'd like.


I'm in with the 'if it's not broke, don't fix it' crew. If the horse is fine on the food he is/was on, I wouldn't go screwing around with it unless something was really wrong with the diet.

[dwblover]

Triple Crown Senior is MUCH lower in NSC% than Strategy. Strategy is 28% NSC, while Triple Crown Senior is only 11.7% NSC. You would be doing your horse a large favor by switching.

[FindersKeepers]

I wouldn't hesitate to add a little senior feed for your guy. It may really help him keep the weight on. He is at higher risk than a horse that has never foundered, but that doesn't mean any minimal change will cause it... In his case, I wouldn't switch him to just the sweet feed, as what you've been doing has worked all these years, but adding a little to his regular meals may help keep the weight on. This is what I did with my girl this spring. She was thriving on her regular feed, but had an infection that was taking its toll on her calorie usage. We added half a pound of senior feed to her breakfast and dinner, and she blossomed.

I think your best bet, is to contact an equine nutritionist. Explain all the circumstances in black and white, and ask for some help in coming up with the best plan for your guy and his changing needs.

[quicksilverponies]

Horses and ponies that have foundered or had a laminitic episode in the past are definitely at a higher risk to have a repeat episode. Grass can be a very quick trigger and early spring grass is risky. I would definitely limit turnout on grass. I feed Purina's Safe N Easy and supplement with Buckeye Ultimate Finish (fat mostly) if they need more weight for those at high risk. I also supplement with a Magnesium product like Remission.

[BornToRide]

If you do add something I'd be hypervigilant of signs that may indicate developing IR.

I have a client with two older horses - a Cushings mare and a TB. Both had recurrent minor flare ups and the Cushings mare also had goopy eyes, which can be a sign of existing IR. My mini had this too, so did several other IR horses I know and it cleared up once the IR was stabilized.

The diet of the two older horses consisted of straight alfalfa and hay pellets mixed with Equine Senior. I advised the owner to take out the Equine Senior and add a magnesium supplement.

And wouldn't you know it - last visit the horse were much perkier, the hooves looked better and the Cushings mare no longer had goopy eyes. :yes:

I am not making this up. I try to be as objective and honest as I can in what I do, otherwise I am not good to anyone, least of all the horses. If I have a IR horse, I do not care what the feed company states on their feed bags- I will stay away from any starch, have the hay tested and only supplement as needed. And if my IR horse needed more calories, I'd first up the hay, add some BP or alfalfa, but never any grains.

[Thomas_1]

Does one laminitic attack 9 years ago mean the horse will ALWAYS be prone to another? It depends. But if you know your horse was laminitic because he was overweight and had a high protein diet or too much food for the exercise he had and have adjusted that then there's no reason why he should have similar problems in future..

My question is - for all my other older horses, I give them Triple Crown Senior to help keep weight on. They love it. But I would consider this to be a sweet feed, right? That feed is specifically manufactured as a convenience feed for elderly horses that have dental problems and hence struggle with conventional forage. Its main ingredient is beet pulp.... unless they've changed the formula recently.

Therefore, I shouldn't give it to Benjamin, right? Or can I?

From what you said and described the incident he had was because he was overweight. It was a one off and you've sorted the root cause and you say he's now quite lean.

Or in other words, nothing you've said indicates he won't be o.k. with it.

Should I up the Strategy (he's already getting 5-8 pounds a day)? I'm also giving him some alfalfa/orchard grass pellets and some oat hay pellets, as well as steam-rolled flat oats. I've switched all my other horses to Triple Crown products -- would Triple Crown Complete be comparable to Strategy? Now I'm thinking he's getting a heck of a lot of stuff already and would be inclined to suggest you don't need additional such as the Senior Mix or Complete mix on top of everything else.

I've thought about adding beet pulp but even after reading the gazillion threads here about it, I'm still not sure if I can make that work. I don't go out the same time every day and sometimes I stop by on way other places, making it impossible to soak it overnight. If I started soaking it as soon as I arrived, what would be the minimum time needed to be "safe"? Some folks don't soak beet pulp at all but personally speaking I don't like that. Being "old fashioned" I'd prefer to soak it and for say an hour or so. A lot of horses find beet pulp pretty unpalatable as well and soaking does make it juicier and tends to get them to eat it and makes it easier too for one that's got teeth problems.

The barn manager is willing to switch Benjamin from hay to pellets, as well, but they won't soak the pellets and I'm hesitant to feed any pellets dry. I always make a "mash" of whatever I feed my horses. I'd be a bit like that when it comes to oldies or ones with teething problems.

Because of your circumstances I'd be inclined to advise you to compare the senior feeds (rather than beet pulp)which have more easily digestible fibre and protein and to soak it if he's struggling to chew it. Often a good idea to move to "little and often" when a horse is as you describe. So lots of smaller feeds. Also don't forget the salt lick or else salt in the water to encourage drinking which you'll need to ensure.

[Simkie]

The diet of the two older horses consisted of straight alfalfa and hay pellets mixed with Equine Senior. I advised the owner to take out the Equine Senior and add a magnesium supplement.


Are you kidding me?

Purina Equine Senior does NOT equal Triple Crown Senior. They are two totally different products with two totally different ingredient lists and two totally different starch/sugar levels.

Condemning all senior feed because you saw problems in horses fed alfalfa and Purina Equine Senior is idiotic.

[BornToRide]

My point is that they also claim it is safe for laminitic horses. Bottom line, I do not feed anything to an IR horse that contains molasses or starches in any form , no matter what the feed company claims the NSC is. I know of a couple of horses that are chronically laminitic on a feed that also claims to be safe for laminitis horses -0 it is based primarily on soy.

Hey, if it works for your horse, great, I just would not want to take any potential risks in this respect because of the potential consequences.

[Simkie]

My point is that they also claim it is safe for laminitic horses. Bottom line, I do not feed anything to an IR horse that contains ... starches in any form

Please explain to me how you eliminate ALL starches. I can't WAIT to hear this :rolleyes:

[ljc]

Should I up the Strategy (he's already getting 5-8 pounds a day)? I'm also giving him some alfalfa/orchard grass pellets and some oat hay pellets, as well as steam-rolled flat oats. I've switched all my other horses to Triple Crown products -- would Triple Crown Complete be comparable to Strategy?

I was way too confusing here. I actually stopped feeding Strategy and switched to the other feeds (alfalfa/orchard pellets, oat hay pellets, and steam-rolled flat oats) when vet was concerned about Benjamin's protein level and suggested I keep supplemental feeds below 10% protein. I added the oats because he was less-than-thrilled with plain ol' pellets. Apparently they were far less tasty than Strategy.

Unrelated to any of that, the whole bad teeth issue developed, leading to my present situation of how to keep weight on him when he's having a hard time (either temporarily or, after teeth are pulled, permanently) while being concerned about protein levels and anything that might trigger a laminitic attack.

So the so-called supplemental feed is now becoming more important since he's having a hard time with hay. I gave him a scoop of TC Senior (14% protein) this am and he loved it. Mixed it with oat hay pellets (low in protein) and some water - he gobbled it right down.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone. I'm still confused, but thanks!

[Auventera Two]

Fact is that you lower the risk of developing laminitis (and other health issues) by feeding a more species specific low NSC diet.

Yes because Gerbil Food does tend to be too high in sugar.

[Thomas_1]

My point is that they also claim it is safe for laminitic horses. Bottom line, I do not feed anything to an IR horse that contains molasses or starches in any form , no matter what the feed company claims the NSC is. You're making things very difficult for me! I'm so trying not to make personal comments about what you post but this about takes the prize for offering advice that is full of false information. (phew I didn't say the word "Stupid") :winkgrin:

Do you have imaginary horses? Do they have imaginary food?

Hint: Starch is in grass, hay, maize, beet pulp, oats, barley, wheat etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

I know you don't believe in reading and learning or posting anything useful but it really and truly might help with your image.

Hey, if it works for your horse, great, I just would not want to take any potential risks in this respect because of the potential consequences. In the meantime I'll continue to feed my horses starch because....... its what horses eat DUHHHHHH

[Auventera Two]

Please explain to me how you eliminate ALL starches. I can't WAIT to hear this :rolleyes:

It's part of a 10 Step Process that can be yours for the low low price of $35 (plus trip fee) per month for the rest of your life.

Take off the shoes. **This is the MOST IMPORTANT! The remaining 9 steps will be ineffective if Step 1 is not carried out!**
Eliminate all soy and alfalfa from the diet.
Send water to a professional laboratory to neutralize iron.
Throw away all your dewormers, you won't be needing them after pulling the shoes.
Call vet and cancel any vet appointments since vets are idiots anyway (and after shoes are pulled, you'll never need the vet again!)
Schedule a Specialized Equine Massage with Born To Ride.
Sprinkle 1 ounce of Holy Water on each nail hole.
Drag all horse blankets into the back yard and burn them. Douse in gasoline first, just to be sure they burn real good, because they are EEEE---VILLLL.
Call your feed man and cancel ALL upcoming feed shipments.
Finally - Born To Ride will call you within 24 hours from a secure connection, where a Special Recipe will given to you. Write this Special Recipe in disappearing ink on the special paper that will have been mailed to you. Don't let anyone see the paper before the ink disapears.**Note** It may be necessary to repeat Step 7, as sometimes The Devil is stubborn and won't come out of the holes. :(

[Doodlebug1]

Before making the switch (yes, I would switch) make sure you know what your horse's normal digital pulse is and the normal temperature for your horse's hooves at different times of day.

Introduce the new food and gradually increase to recommended amount. All the while make sure you keep a disciplined eye on digital pulse and heat in feet. The first symptom of any discomfort in the feet will be an increased digital pulse vs the jugular pulse. ANY change in this - cut back the feed briefly and see if this reverses the higher pulse. If it does DO NOT ignore - cut out the feed that seems to be causing the problem. this way you will catch the symptoms before they become critical.

From what you have described it sounds that your horse is at relatively low risk - though certainly a higher risk than a horse that had never had a problem before.

With regard to the starch 'discussion' there has been some work recently that suggests that the reason horses don't suffer these ailments in the wild is a combination of factors - horses are more able to cope with the spring surge of rich grass if they have been very short of food over the winter months. Because we break this cycle by feeding in the winter the richness of the grass causes problems. But also, it seems to be that grass that is intensively grazed, structurally changes so that the collagen fibres are altered, which changes the profile and digestibility of the starch which is why there is some confusion in this area.

'good starch' though is the basis of equine diet. It is vital that your horse has small amounts of food passing through his digestive tract frequently. Try getting a low energy type of hay and use a haynet in a haynet, in a haynet (so the holes are tiny), that way your horse will be getting constant but small amounts of feed regularly. 'Starving' your horse (not saying you would, but some people still advise it) will just create digestive problems and behavioural problems instead of foot problems...

[jaimebaker]

It's part of a 10 Step Process that can be yours for the low low price of $35 (plus trip fee) per month for the rest of your life.

Take off the shoes. **This is the MOST IMPORTANT! The remaining 9 steps will be ineffective if Step 1 is not carried out!**
Eliminate all soy and alfalfa from the diet.
Send water to a professional laboratory to neutralize iron.
Throw away all your dewormers, you won't be needing them after pulling the shoes.
Call vet and cancel any vet appointments since vets are idiots anyway (and after shoes are pulled, you'll never need the vet again!)
Schedule a Specialized Equine Massage with Born To Ride.
Sprinkle 1 ounce of Holy Water on each nail hole.
Drag all horse blankets into the back yard and burn them. Douse in gasoline first, just to be sure they burn real good, because they are EEEE---VILLLL.
Call your feed man and cancel ALL upcoming feed shipments.
Finally - Born To Ride will call you within 24 hours from a secure connection, where a Special Recipe will given to you. Write this Special Recipe in disappearing ink on the special paper that will have been mailed to you. Don't let anyone see the paper before the ink disapears.**Note** It may be necessary to repeat Step 7, as sometimes The Devil is stubborn and won't come out of the holes. :(

OMFG. You rule! That was awesome:lol:

[ptownevt]

In actuality if there wasn't any rotation, this horse didn't even actually founder. He apparently had one episode of laminitis, which could have been caused by a whole host of factors that we don't know anything about since it was 9 years ago. There is no evidence this horse is Insulin Resistant nor is there any reason to suspect Cushings and have testing done. In fact if he was Insulin Resistant, he would be on the heavy side as I understand it. So why, oh why, the posts warning of the supreme dangers of feeding horses starch (carbohydrates). As others have pointed out, impossible to avoid as that is what horses eat. If you could convince him to eat steak, you could get him off all starch. Then he would be on Atkins. Now, would that make any sense????

I feed Triple Crown Senior to my horses. My vet thinks it is a fine feed. My horses are doing very well on it. It is the non structural carbohydrates (NSC) that can cause problems, although they do not cause problems for ALL horses. The low NSC of Triple Crown Senior is a good choice for your guy, especially if he is on the thin side, a picky eater and he likes the TSC Senior. Zealots of all persuasions make me crazy!

[ljc]

In actuality if there wasn't any rotation, this horse didn't even actually founder. He apparently had one episode of laminitis, which could have been caused by a whole host of factors that we don't know anything about since it was 9 years ago. There is no evidence this horse is Insulin Resistant nor is there any reason to suspect Cushings and have testing done. In fact if he was Insulin Resistant, he would be on the heavy side as I understand it. So why, oh why, the posts warning of the supreme dangers of feeding horses starch (carbohydrates). As others have pointed out, impossible to avoid as that is what horses eat. If you could convince him to eat steak, you could get him off all starch. Then he would be on Atkins. Now, would that make any sense????

I feed Triple Crown Senior to my horses. My vet thinks it is a fine feed. My horses are doing very well on it. It is the non structural carbohydrates (NSC) that can cause problems, although they do not cause problems for ALL horses. The low NSC of Triple Crown Senior is a good choice for your guy, especially if he is on the thin side, a picky eater and he likes the TSC Senior. Zealots of all persuasions make me crazy!

THANK YOU!!!! No, he never foundered - no rotation. He's not IR or Cushing's. He's a very lean and athletic older TB who simply is indifferent to hay of all kinds and is now going through old-age dental problems that I'm trying to solve to the best of my abilities, given that he's boarded at a public barn where I cannot personally feed him three times a day.

[luvmywalkers]

THANK YOU!!!! No, he never foundered - no rotation. He's not IR or Cushing's. He's a very lean and athletic older TB who simply is indifferent to hay of all kinds and is now going through old-age dental problems that I'm trying to solve to the best of my abilities, given that he's boarded at a public barn where I cannot personally feed him three times a day.

All senior feeds are "complete" feeds, meaning they can serve as a hay replacer. Most will love beetpulp, but having to soak it may not be an option where you board. Have you tried the chopped hay? There are many varieties.

[Simkie]

It's part of a 10 Step Process that can be yours for the low low price of $35 (plus trip fee) per month for the rest of your life.

Take off the shoes. **This is the MOST IMPORTANT! The remaining 9 steps will be ineffective if Step 1 is not carried out!**
Eliminate all soy and alfalfa from the diet.
Send water to a professional laboratory to neutralize iron.
Throw away all your dewormers, you won't be needing them after pulling the shoes.
Call vet and cancel any vet appointments since vets are idiots anyway (and after shoes are pulled, you'll never need the vet again!)
Schedule a Specialized Equine Massage with Born To Ride.
Sprinkle 1 ounce of Holy Water on each nail hole.
Drag all horse blankets into the back yard and burn them. Douse in gasoline first, just to be sure they burn real good, because they are EEEE---VILLLL.
Call your feed man and cancel ALL upcoming feed shipments.
Finally - Born To Ride will call you within 24 hours from a secure connection, where a Special Recipe will given to you. Write this Special Recipe in disappearing ink on the special paper that will have been mailed to you. Don't let anyone see the paper before the ink disapears.**Note** It may be necessary to repeat Step 7, as sometimes The Devil is stubborn and won't come out of the holes. :(

This is so fantastic, I'm quoting it all just so I can read it again :lol: :D

[Tom Bloomer]

**Note** It may be necessary to repeat Step 7, as sometimes The Devil is stubborn and won't come out of the holes. :(I use Durasole for that. I has the homeopathic power of Texas in it.

[Thomas_1]

It's part of a 10 Step Process that can be yours for the low low price of $35 (plus trip fee) per month for the rest of your life.

Take off the shoes. **This is the MOST IMPORTANT! The remaining 9 steps will be ineffective if Step 1 is not carried out!**
Eliminate all soy and alfalfa from the diet.
Send water to a professional laboratory to neutralize iron.
Throw away all your dewormers, you won't be needing them after pulling the shoes.
Call vet and cancel any vet appointments since vets are idiots anyway (and after shoes are pulled, you'll never need the vet again!)
Schedule a Specialized Equine Massage with Born To Ride.
Sprinkle 1 ounce of Holy Water on each nail hole.
Drag all horse blankets into the back yard and burn them. Douse in gasoline first, just to be sure they burn real good, because they are EEEE---VILLLL.
Call your feed man and cancel ALL upcoming feed shipments.
Finally - Born To Ride will call you within 24 hours from a secure connection, where a Special Recipe will given to you. Write this Special Recipe in disappearing ink on the special paper that will have been mailed to you. Don't let anyone see the paper before the ink disapears.**Note** It may be necessary to repeat Step 7, as sometimes The Devil is stubborn and won't come out of the holes. :(

Did you forget to mention the bit about making a wax model of a farrier and sticking needles in its eyes?? Or does that come as step 11?? Which presumably is immediately before Step 12 which is "Post on COTH to let everyone know how stupid you are" - darn it..... I used the stupid word!

[c5rose]

Simkie,
you won't believe how little it can take for sugar sensitive horses to react to any starch/sugar they may be geeting in a feed. The highlighted items in TC Senior below I would not want to see in a processed feed for a EMS horse, especially if the horse's hooves also show me warning signs that they are affected:



I don't have a Strategy tag in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet molasses is an ingredient. Just because a feed is a pelleted form, does not mean molasses isn't somehow added in one form or another.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

Someone recommended this on another thread. If the barn has a freezer prepare soaked beet pulp in advance, put in plastic bags and freeze. All the person who feeds needs to do is take it out of the freezer earlier in the day so it can thaw and then give at feeding time.

[yellow-horse]

I have a horse who had foundered 9 years ago as well, the previous owenr immediately eliminated all feed and the horse was on alfalfa pellets and hay with no supplements for all those years, when I took her she was kinda thinish.
Anyway to make a long story short, the founder episode happned when the horse was on a 15 mile ride, was shod and they got lost, they wound up in s swamp, the shoes and quite a bit of hoof got sucked off and the horse dontinued on this hellish ride for a number of miles, foundered the next day.
I assumed it was a concusiion type founder, the only way to tell if there was any metabolic issues was to get a full work up and xrays. After review of her symptoms, lab work and xrays which showed no rotation, vet determined horse was not prone to founder due to metabolic issues.
I've had the horse 3 years now, she is on tc low starch, hay and aflafa, she has not foundered again. She does not go out on grass however since i purposely don't have grass since I have a true ir cushings horse. I would feed her tc senior if she required it but she is doing well with this.
I'm just saying, I think you have to know why the horse foundered, what his labs look like and monitor any changes carefully.

[ljc]

Update.

OK, I started Benjamin on TC Senior and he broke out in hives. The Senior was the only new factor introduced to his environment so I can't see any other cause. I'm giving him benadryl (no dex since he had the one laminitis attack years ago) and continuing the search for what to feed him until equine dentist can pull the friggin' tooth (or teeth, if it comes to that). I've tried the TC safe starch forage (bagged hay, basically), thinking he'd like that but no. he doesn't.

When in doubt, go back to what he ate before, which was Strategy. And I'm going to try beet pulp, as well. I now have approximately six garbage cans filled with feed I've tried tempting him with the last week!!!!