Facebook Group on Dishonest Horse Trainers

[Smoochy]

Interesting - there's now a facebook group about getting rid of dishonest horse trainers. Guess USEF not getting rules passed to help protect against fraud lit a fire?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=45772239233

[RNB]

Ok....I'll admit it.....I joined last week! :D

[horse-loverz]

Oh I have one I would LOOOVE to put on there. :yes:

[Woodland]

Oh yes, lets have yet ANOTHER place to trash people online where they can not defend themselves - Gad the Jerry Springer lifestyle of the horsey set :rolleyes:

[RNB]

Oh I have one I would LOOOVE to put on there. :yes:

Go ahead HL...join and post!!! ;) I've posted, but not about my felons....figured everyone was tired of hearing about them!! :lol:

[Smoochy]

I guess I don't look at this as intending to trash people. Seems to me that if we did something like eBay where people were willing to post feedback about trainers, then we could protect each other. I appreciate what this person is trying to do and I would hope that our community is mature enough to use it wisely. Hopefully the group admin will manage the group appropriately.

[Auventera Two]

I steer WAAAAAAAAY clear of garbage sites like this, and fugly.

The problem is you're getting ONE SIDE OF A STORY. Lets face it, alot of horse people are insane. That's all there is to it.

I trim a horse for a lady who is quite "colorful." Drama queen extraordinairre doesn't even scratch the surface. She's been through more farriers and trimmers than socks in recent years. To hear her tell it, they're all horse abusers who hack and lame up her horse, they can't be trusted, they're evil, they're stupid, they should be put out of business. My time's coming, I can feel it. :lol: The problem is that the woman is totally eccentric - ok, borderline insane. Her Poopsie Doodle is 200 pounds overweight and spoiled as a 3 year old child. All the stories she tells me about these horrible farriers and trimmers - I just nod my head and smile. Garbage in, garbage out.

Half the horses featured on fugly look like perfectly fine animals but they're just bad pictures. And she goes and steals photos off websites without knowing the WHOLE STORY. The horse could be recently rescued, or very ill, who knows. If that woman stole photos from my site of my 3 girls when I first got them - well, there'd be 100 comments on how dirty and skinny and wormy they are. Yeah, well, that's why they're called rescues. You can't exactly be considered a rescue if you're not in NEED of being rescued! ;) But you never get the rest of the story with her.

Whoever said Jerry Springer hit it right on the nuts. This lynch mob mentality of some of you horse people is repulsive.

[WorthTheWait95]

While I also steer clear of the fugly blogs and facebook groups like that at least the facebook group ties a name and face to the comment. It's nastiest when people start posting under ambiguous screen names and alters. Hopefully people will be more willing to think twice/not exaggerate the truth so much when their REAL name is out there for all to see.

[equinelaw]

That's so weird. Nobody ever seems to wonder what the other side of the story is in horse abuse cases. . . . . .I guess theft and fraud and lying and stealing deserve open minds, but if someone says "abuse!" then its OK to think they are guilty?

There is no shame in being ripped off. There should be consequences for ripping people off and law enforcement rarely gets involved. Most people cannot afford to sue. So silence lets crooks keep on stealing, lying and hurting horses and people.

This facebook site if not like Fuglys site. It has nothing to do with Fugly, but it should be pointed out that Fugly does post people's "explanations" and "their side of the story" They rarely make themselves look less stupid after telling their side.

I do have a personal interest. I would very much prefer that all people screwed in a horse deal hire me. I would love it if they had no outlet to try non-litigation methods of getting a warning out and trying to clean up the industry without paying me.

Too bad most people cannot afford that and the money they would give me could buy 2 horses and 4 years worth of board at an honest professionals establishment. I agree we shouldn't talk about such matters or try to change things for. They can all buy bikes!

Get rid of all the horse trainers instead of trying to identify the bad ones. That will solve all our problems:)

[tkhawk]

Oh yes, lets have yet ANOTHER place to trash people online where they can not defend themselves - Gad the Jerry Springer lifestyle of the horsey set :rolleyes:

If it is a bunch of anonymous people posting-that may not be very helpful. You can get a feel, but still you do not know who is posting and what their agendas and/or motivations are. But it can still lead to some good info.

Fugly is different. She is open and not anonymous. It is a blog and her opinion on things. Anyone can post a reply, including the affected party .It is just a blog.

Now jerry Springer-they choose to come on there. If someone chooses to reveal on national televesion all that stuff-can't blame the rest of us for laughing. They get paid air tickets and probably hotel accomodations and maybe meals too, to come to the studio and air their dirty laundry in public. That is not anonymous-they choose to do it-very different and so nothing wrong with the rest of the audience laughing and poking fun-they know what it is coming in-it is not a surprise....

[Smoochy]

The facebook group is an open page, so there's no reason that someone couldn't tell their side of the story there. Zagat posts restaurant reviews, and a restaurant doesn't seem to be able to respond if something bad is said about them. At least anyone can join this group and post. All of the other stuff that has been done to try to clean up the industry hasn't worked. Certainly, buyer beware holds true, but at least having some sort of feedback system might be a good start being that regulation is slow. I know that this is probably a topic that everyone will end up having to agree to disagree on, but I just thought it was interesting that it's becoming enough of an issue that someone is willing to put their name and face out there to more openly combat it.

[cwu2402]

OK, I'm outing myself here, but I'm the one that started the facebook site. My intent was certainly not to stir the pot and create drama, but to provide a forum for people to share their experiences so that we can educate each other to prevent things from happening to others. I actually looked at launching a business aimed at preventing fraud, and we did extensive market research with consumers, trainers and insurance companies to help understand the issues and potential solutions. Part of what amazed me the most was that many people I talked to knew that they either had been or were being ripped, off but because the relationship to the trainer is so strong and fraud is so prevalent in the industry, that they were unwilling to do something about it. It seemed like the attitude was, "we know this is how the business works, we just have to deal with it."

My perspective is that we are losing people who love horses and the sport becuase these activities are not being curbed. The state by state legislation is slow to pass, and the USEF is dragging it's feet, mainly b/c those voting for these types of regulation are those that would be harmed by it. I would actually love not to have to have regulation for those. But the only way that would work is if people are willing to challenge those that are participating in fraudulent activities and educate others out there to follow standard business practices. Otherwise, we'll continue to hear horror stories.

The reason I chose facebook as a forum rather than other places was precisely because there are names and faces attached, and so people have to be careful and truthful when posting, because everyone else knows who you are. There is no protection of anonymity.

Catherine Winter

[msrobin]

While I think it is a good idea, I also think it may get out of hand. One sided stories can be totally honest while some may not be. That can hurt others.
I hope the group does well and I may just join to see what is going on. I haven't been screwed by anyone in the horse industry so I wont be posting but, it is interesting stuff I have to say.

[Sonesta]

For years I've wanted to start some sort of Better Business Bureau for the horse industry. A place where people can become members who will agree to follow rules of ethics and agree to allow the bbb to arbitrate dispute. A place where people can file complaints against someone in the horse industry and have that complaint investigated. A place where people can go and search a name to find out if (and how many) complaints have been made against that person/business and whether it was resolved.

We need such a thing.

[greysandbays]

If trashed trainers are not notified that they are being trashed so that they can respond (and perhaps file lawsuits of their own in cases of clear defamation), then this is nothing more than a witch hunt.

The Zagat comparasion is not valid. Everybody in the restaurant business knows who they are (hell, even I know that, and I've never even been IN any restaurant fancy enough to be listed!) and what they do. Thus, business can keep tabs on what's said about them in it and launch their own defense if they must.

But how is a trainer to know which nobody-ever-heard-of-her crazy lady with a website to keep tabs on should somebody start trashing their reputation?

[cloudyandcallie]

OK, I'm outing myself here, but I'm the one that started the facebook site. My intent was certainly not to stir the pot and create drama, but to provide a forum for people to share their experiences so that we can educate each other to prevent things from happening to others. I actually looked at launching a business aimed at preventing fraud, and we did extensive market research with consumers, trainers and insurance companies to help understand the issues and potential solutions. Part of what amazed me the most was that many people I talked to knew that they either had been or were being ripped, off but because the relationship to the trainer is so strong and fraud is so prevalent in the industry, that they were unwilling to do something about it. It seemed like the attitude was, "we know this is how the business works, we just have to deal with it."

My perspective is that we are losing people who love horses and the sport becuase these activities are not being curbed. The state by state legislation is slow to pass, and the USEF is dragging it's feet, mainly b/c those voting for these types of regulation are those that would be harmed by it. I would actually love not to have to have regulation for those. But the only way that would work is if people are willing to challenge those that are participating in fraudulent activities and educate others out there to follow standard business practices. Otherwise, we'll continue to hear horror stories.

The reason I chose facebook as a forum rather than other places was precisely because there are names and faces attached, and so people have to be careful and truthful when posting, because everyone else knows who you are. There is no protection of anonymity.

Catherine Winter

I think it's a great idea, and you are very brave to start it. And I love fugly, I mean, everyone thinks his/her horse is so great that he/she should be making more horses just like that?????
As soon as I get back from superbowl oyster roast, Ill be checking out the website.

[Calhoun]

I also agree this is a good idea and you are brave to start the site. As someone who has purchased a horse which was misrepresented not only by an agent but also by the PPE vet, something should be done to stop fraud. My only concern would be an individual who is thrown under the bus by a ill-meaning person. Their reputation could be severely damaged. If someone were to post negatively about a trainer, is there a way to check the story? This way both people could post their side. I am thinking along the same line as a newspaper story - each person is interviewed and the reader is left to make up their own mind.

Although you may not like Fugly's style, you have to admire her passion in trying to stop bad breeding, animal hoarders who call themselves rescues and horse abuse.

[HydroPHILE]

Interesting - there's now a facebook group about getting rid of dishonest horse trainers.

I hope someone is giving the "dishonest horse trainers" the facebook link as well to be able to attempt to defend themselves - even with just a single posting. Sad that if one customer isn't happy (or embellishes their story greatly) that it could ruin someone's career.

[cwu2402]

OK, it may be silly to ask, but who's "Fugly?"

As for the group, I would love to have trainers join as well - this would only benefit them, as if we get rid of the dishonest trainers, it's more business for the honest one. Being that it's an open group, anyone and everyone is invited to post. So, if someone is accused of something, they are more than welcome to defend themselves. I would hope that exposure would encourage people to work harder to stay "clean." I know that no system is perfect, and certainly this one has its flaws. But from what I've seen testifying in front of the Florida legislature, what's going on elsewhere like VA and the USEF, the cards are stacked in favor of trainers and against consumers. The comment I hear a lot from trainers is that they believe we don't need regulation because there is NO issue in the horse industry. If that were true, there would be no reason to fight so hard against regulation. So while my approach may be slightly unbalanced, it's a step...

[equinelaw]

If it were that easy to ruin reputations or warn people off bad trainers none of this would be needed. Its almost impossible to do that. Even convicted horse killers get a break form loyal followers.

There are already many places on-line to complain. At least having one place by horsemen for horsemen gives people a chance to defend themselves and those they know or at least know where to look. A BBB for horses is a great way to put it.

I have yet to actually see anyone run out of the horse business. Even those with threads 40 pages long here on COTH. I just do not see that as a big danger. I think its worse when they have done something wrong and we have to wait for a court judgment to hear about it. Most people cannot afford to go to court. Someone is no more or less guilty after being judged by their peers on-line as they are in a court of law with 12 non-horse people deciding?

That's not how things work IRL. Its not how things work at social gatherings, the newspapers, the tack shop gossip or at shows. At least a site like this is open and not just gossip behind people's backs as is the usual way of spreading the word.

[kcmel]

Catherine, good luck with this. I think it is a great idea.

Here is the "fugly" blog.

http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/

[Guilherme]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilance_Committee

G.

[msrobin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilance_Committee

G.

True true :)

[cloudyandcallie]

I think fugly is wonderful and a necessary tool to expose lousy breeders.

And I don't think anyone who looks at the pictures that fugly posts of fugly horses can say with a straight face that those are just bad pictures taken at the wrong angles, etc. A bad picture is one where the frontal view shows a huge head and tiny body, not those pictures of giraffes and rhinos and hippos and wildebeest that fugly posts and those people are breeding those horses. They aren't fuglies gelded and purchased and loved, they are fuglies offered at stud and in foal and products of awful breeding practices which result in more abused and neglected and slaughterbound horses.

If only one person will stop breeding because of fugly, she will have done a great service to everyone. Look in the mirror if you are breeding these horses. We need more fuglyhorseoftheday blogs and more spaying/altering/gelding of dogs/cats/horses/humanbreeders.:yes:

[SuperSTB]

If only one person will stop breeding because of fugly, she will have done a great service to everyone. Look in the mirror if you are breeding these horses. We need more fuglyhorseoftheday blogs and more spaying/altering/gelding of dogs/cats/horses/humanbreeders.:yes:

Oh Amen! I read Fugly all the time. You don't have to agree with everything she believes but you have to admit 99% of what she posts has some serious truths to it. If you find yourself highlighted in some Fugly blog- it's time to take a real good look at yourself and what you've been doing.

We all make mistakes- trainers, vets, farriers, owners, riders- but we do need to hold ourselves and our industry to *improving* standards. We need to learn from our mistakes. Sometimes it takes a little 'internet buzz' to wake us from our blissfull unawareness.

Op's facebook could be beneficial but she needs to be solid on the intent. Is it objective or just another blog. Many people aren't on facebook either (like myself) so the audience is limited.

[simon63]

- Gad the Jerry Springer lifestyle of the horsey set :rolleyes:
I want to close my barn to get away from it- lately (but with rare exception), everyone I know seems like they should be in Jerry's audience- from the trainer who stole my friend's lesson clients, to the boarder I have who yelps because there's grain gooped up in her horse's water and won't get his teeth done so he doesn't keep losing feed all over. I give up- do people have rational priorities anymore??:mad:

[Melyni]

I think fugly is wonderful and a necessary tool to expose lousy breeders.

And I don't think anyone who looks at the pictures that fugly posts of fugly horses can say with a straight face that those are just bad pictures taken at the wrong angles, etc. A bad picture is one where the frontal view shows a huge head and tiny body, not those pictures of giraffes and rhinos and hippos and wildebeest that fugly posts and those people are breeding those horses. They aren't fuglies gelded and purchased and loved, they are fuglies offered at stud and in foal and products of awful breeding practices which result in more abused and neglected and slaughterbound horses.

If only one person will stop breeding because of fugly, she will have done a great service to everyone. Look in the mirror if you are breeding these horses. We need more fuglyhorseoftheday blogs and more spaying/altering/gelding of dogs/cats/horses/humanbreeders.:yes:

Speaking as someone who did have a horse lambasted on fuglys site, she picked a bad shot of a horse, (It wasn't put up by me, I am not sure how she got it), but it was a very poor picture of a nice horse and she ranted on and on about how it was just awful and should never be bred from etc etc.

Well that horse has been our local short stirrup champion a number of times and regularly wins classes ridden by a variety of kids.
(In fact if I recall it right I think it was one of her riders who put the picture up).

The one foal she had is also doing just fine as a young horse, is sound, and is nice tempered just like her mother.

So I just decided that fugly was another wacko and never bothered to correct all the misapprehensions she had and all the ugly things she wrote since A) it was just her opinion and B) the horse didn't care, she just kept on winning her classes and toting her kids safely around.

If the facebook site is another of the same as fugly then I won't bother.

Yours
MW

[Guilherme]

No single still photo of a horse can ever be definiative about the entire horse. Every horse has a "good side" and a "bad side." Anyone who uses a single still photo to make judgements about what the horse is or isn't is likely engaging in some sort of "agenda promotion."

I had a website once upon a time that had four photos of my main mare on it. In one of those photos she was shifting her weight just slightly and appeared to have a "bucked knee." Of course the other photos showed her as absolutely normal, but lots of folks wanted to talk about her "bucked knee."

A series of well taken photos can be very valuable in evaluating the conformation of a horse. Add a well done video clip and you can get some real value. Poor quality photos and video likely tell you just nothing. Those who use poor quality media to declare a poor quality horse are either ignorant or intentionally misleading.

G.

[equinelaw]

This thread is not about Fugly. Its about dishonest horse trainers and a website to talk about them.

Talking about Fugly and making accusations about her ethics, intelligence and agenda's is a very handy example about how little people care about about making accusations as long as they feel they are in the right, but oddly some of these people same think the concept of a BBB type website for dishonest horse trading is wrong. If you feel free to bash fugly why are we not free to bash crooks?

So its not about rights or principals or being very very careful about saying bad things about people you may or may not know, its just whether you agree with what is said that matters?

We all bash abusers, some of us bash Fugly and some of us like her bashing others, anything PETA or politicians do is up for bashing. . . .but stealing, lying or cheating is not OK to talk about? Huh.

[cloudyandcallie]

This thread is not about Fugly. Its about dishonest horse trainers and a website to talk about them.

Talking about Fugly and making accusations about her ethics, intelligence and agenda's is a very handy example about how little people care about about making accusations as long as they feel they are in the right, but oddly some of these people same think the concept of a BBB type website for dishonest horse trading is wrong. If you feel free to bash fugly why are we not free to bash crooks?

So its not about rights or principals or being very very careful about saying bad things about people you may or may not know, its just whether you agree with what is said that matters?

We all bash abusers, some of us bash Fugly and some of us like her bashing others, anything PETA or politicians do is up for bashing. . . .but stealing, lying or cheating is not OK to talk about? Huh.

Right Sara: now people have a facebook site to complain and post and name names. I've not bought from anyone who was bad, just have good things to say about mine, but others have had bad experiences and I'd like to avoid those people, breeders/trainers/sellers/agents, in the future.

[mew]

While this may not be an idea solution. . . I don't think anyone disagrees that the horse world has plenty of nutso and bad trainers, and there is not a good way of getting feed back about trainers, sale barns ect all in one place. What would be lovely is if some one made a rate my horse person site the same they have for teachers or doctors. . . then all of their students can write rave reviews or the ugly truth or what ever. . . But there needs to be a better method
for example I personally have had five figures "missing" the owners paid it we have never seen it and they gave another horse as partial payment which I was never informed of or have seen. . . this barn is still in business and most likely still ripping people off but there is no good way of getting what happened to me and I have found out other people as well. . .something has to be done and something is better than nothing IMOH

[Susan P]

I just joined your group. I recently had a very bad experience with someone I started out really liking but had some reservations about. I had more than enough reason to be concerned when they skipped town. There is no question about whether these people are crooks, it's just a matter of when they go to jail and which criminal behavior gets them there.

[Guilherme]

We all bash abusers, some of us bash Fugly and some of us like her bashing others, anything PETA or politicians do is up for bashing. . . .but stealing, lying or cheating is not OK to talk about? Huh.

There's nothing wrong with identifying liars, cheats, and thieves. When you "name names" you take a risk. If you're accurate you take very little risk; if you're wrong you might find out you took a big one.

It's also good to keep in mind that every nickle has two sides; if you only hear one then reserving judgement is not at all a Bad Thing.

I know a lady who recently pled guilty to defrauding equine investors out of more than $500,000. So far she's not spent a day in jail. She's suing one of her victims for defamation. I've not seen the papers so I don't know how she's basing her claim. It's been my experience with her that she's as crooked as a dog's hind leg. She's as slick as they come and could sell refrigerators to the Eskimos. I've had three transactions with her; got "singed" on one (she pulled a "bait and switch on a breeding agreement) and avoided getting badly "nicked" on the others by dealing in cash up front. But I'll not publish her name as I don't need the hassle. If someone askes me about her I'll just refer them to the criminal case file. They can read the facts and make up their own mind.

The horse world draws nut cases by the bushel basket full. Often these folks have way more money than sense. In such an environment the charletains, mountbanks, cutpurses, and ne'redowells will flourish. Of course, if folks keep in mind the title of an old W.C. Fields movies they greatly reduce their chances of becoming a victim. That title? "You Can't Cheat An Honest Man."

G.

[cloudyandcallie]

No single still photo of a horse can ever be definiative about the entire horse. Every horse has a "good side" and a "bad side." Anyone who uses a single still photo to make judgements about what the horse is or isn't is likely engaging in some sort of "agenda promotion."

I had a website once upon a time that had four photos of my main mare on it. In one of those photos she was shifting her weight just slightly and appeared to have a "bucked knee." Of course the other photos showed her as absolutely normal, but lots of folks wanted to talk about her "bucked knee."

A series of well taken photos can be very valuable in evaluating the conformation of a horse. Add a well done video clip and you can get some real value. Poor quality photos and video likely tell you just nothing. Those who use poor quality media to declare a poor quality horse are either ignorant or intentionally misleading.

G.

If you think no single photo can be definitive go check out the pic of the paint mare, who is being breed, on the February 9th fugly post. Then tell me that poor mare's spine is a figment of the camera or of my imagination.:eek: