OMG - Banning Carrages in NYC!!! [Archive]

bort84

Jan. 31, 2009, 01:20 PM

Ugh. That's so annoying. Why not just pass legislation that maybe would penalize people that don't treat their carriage horses well? A lot of drivers do! I mean, I've seen some lame ones that look a little skinny, but I don't think it's the majority by any means. It's always people that know nothing about horses that think they are going to do something to help. What would really happen if the legislation passed is that a lot of these horses would no longer have a purpose and potentially not have a home and might be sold into conditions that actually ARE bad. So silly. Why not just monitor their conditions more closely? No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, haha.

Paragon

Jan. 31, 2009, 05:20 PM

A random situation, but Liam Neeson was talking with Jon Stewart on The Daily Show this week about the carriage horses in NYC. Stewart adopted the typical position of "Shouldn't horses be in fields and stuff?" while Neeson argued that these horses essentially grow up working and are happiest doing so. It's just how their lives are.

Was an interesting chat between two unlikely individuals.

silver2

Jan. 31, 2009, 06:34 PM

Liam Neeson is Irish where horses are not regarded as magickal pets. he is also of an age where he probably saw many horses pulling carts and working when he was younger.

Beverley

Jan. 31, 2009, 06:49 PM

The same thing was tried in D.C. eons ago, I want to say 20 years or more, by PETA types. Several petite female carriage drivers got some tv coverage of themselves pulling their carriages, demonstrating that it is hardly onerous work. The move to ban dissolved quickly. I hope New Yorkers come to their senses, too.

Thomas_1

Jan. 31, 2009, 06:59 PM

Pat

Jan. 31, 2009, 07:17 PM

How absolutely stupid.

Why doesn't he just ban horse ownership totally on the basis that there's a minority that treat them badly and cruelly!

I'm thinking that sort of daft politics saves the mindless moron from doing something of substance like working on matters relating to the colapse of the financial sector and the crash in the economy!

I'm *not* going to bash heads on this one, and I'm directing my response to the comment, not the commentator. (just to be clear, Thomas)

I didn't read the link yet, so I'm just coming from a place of general experience on the subject.

Thomas, I'll warrant that not every person who drives a carriage on a city street is not a bad person... Moreover, I'm sure that not every body who works for the NYC carriage people is a bad person... But I've worked in that part of the City. It is NOT a place for horses. They are stabled inches from the West Side Highway. Thier "barn" is just dreadful, and I wouldn't stash a rank and dangerous animal there, much less a hard working one the earns his keep everyday!

I also 100% believe that NYC in general is NO PLACE for a working animal. It is noisy, dirty and just not a place for a horse. 100 years ago, sure. Maybe even 50 years ago. No longer. I didn't shed a tear when Chelsea Eq and later Claremont were closed. And Chelsea wasn't too bad, relative to other 'barns'. I'm glad it's gotten some use as the stables for the Mounted Police horses. I understand why the NYPD continues to utilize them, but I don't think it's good for the animals. But atleast they have moved into a better building than the old on 42nd street.

I've also been witness to the corruption of the people directly overseeing the horses living in NYC. I've been literally chased by a man seeking a bribe. My barn wasn't doing anything wrong, nothing to bribe you over, asshat! I'm absolutely certain that he gets plenty of reasons to over look many things that involve the carriages.

All romanticsm aside, it's about TIME.

Pat

Jan. 31, 2009, 07:18 PM

Hey, lookie there, that was my 2500th post. teehee.

Thomas_1

Jan. 31, 2009, 07:31 PM

Thomas, I'll warrant that not every person who drives a carriage on a city street is not a bad person... Moreover, I'm sure that not every body who works for the NYC carriage people is a bad person... But I've worked in that part of the City. It is NOT a place for horses. I've posted the very same thing myself previously.

I well know that carriage horses and nut cases in fast cars with no respect for anything else on the road don't mix!

But I still think his argument and rationale is totally illogical and it's a total waste of a politicians time to be fannying about with something as trite as that when there's a global economic crisis!

lolalola

Jan. 31, 2009, 08:28 PM

What would happen to most of these horses if the ban goes through? Probably a one-way ticket to Canada.

Pat

Jan. 31, 2009, 08:34 PM

But I still think his argument and rationale is totally illogical and it's a total waste of a politicians time to be fannying about with something as trite as that when there's a global economic crisis!

AH!! I see you are uninitiated. Welcome to working with NYC politians. Stop expecting logic from them, your sanity is *just* not worth it.

CiegoStar

Jan. 31, 2009, 08:35 PM

All romanticsm aside, it's about TIME.

Agreed. And I'm willing to bet the life for horses in the city actually has improved a LOT over the last 100 years. Still, the time for horse-drawn carriages has passed. It really isn't the difficulty of pulling the carriage itself that's the issue. It's the overall quality of life for the animals, and NYC just is no place for them.

Pat

Jan. 31, 2009, 08:36 PM

What would happen to most of these horses if the ban goes through? Probably a one-way ticket to Canada.

The web musta ate my post on this!!

This is where the vast majority of these horses go any way when they are no longer useful. It would change nothing.

CiegoStar

Jan. 31, 2009, 08:37 PM

What would happen to most of these horses if the ban goes through? Probably a one-way ticket to Canada.

Where do you think they were going once they were too lame, tired or old to work? Not to the farm upstate, I don't think.

It will be unfortunate if some horses can't find homes, but I would be surprised. There can't be that many, and remember how people snatched up Claremont horses when the stable closed.

What this would do is end the tide of used-up carriage horses being produced every year.

Nezzy

Jan. 31, 2009, 08:43 PM

Agreed. And I'm willing to bet the life for horses in the city actually has improved a LOT over the last 100 years. Still, the time for horse-drawn carriages has passed. It really isn't the difficulty of pulling the carriage itself that's the issue. It's the overall quality of life for the animals, and NYC just is no place for them.

DITTO!!

twobays

Jan. 31, 2009, 09:04 PM

It really doesn't bother me. I see carriage horses up here in Boston (which is much less congested than NY) and it kind of makes me cringe.

Drive NJ

Jan. 31, 2009, 09:21 PM

Couple of thoughts on this

1 - Thomas, some prefer elected officials to work on this sort of legislation rather than messing things up worse by trying to work on real issues. Personally, I think this IS messing things up and we should either elect better people OR let them work on even more ridiculous stuff - like a city song or animal or vegetable or the like

2 - I know there are some bad apples, but there are some terrific people doing this work. Back in the "bad 1980s" when people thought these horses lives were just rotten, we were at a nice driving show. A truck and trailer pulled in with a lovely antique vehicle on board. Then out came 'Duke'. Seems the carriage business owner's daughter wanted to drive in an ADS show and Dad told her the pony she was training wasn't ready. Her choice was to bring Duke - right off the street - he got a 'day off' or not go. She brought Duke and did VERY well. Lovely cobby horse, in good flesh, beautifully turned out and did a good job on everything he tried.

3 - We've stayed off and on friends with these folks over the years. Let me tell you just a little about them. The have a big collection of vehicles they rent out to theaters, movies and we rented some for a display at the 1993 World Pairs Championships at Gladstone. They have provided horses for Aida at the Metropolitan Opera and the Stockman Steakhouse. They work in the Central Park area with rather odd turnouts for carriage driving, but that's what sells to the public (plumes on the horses colorful driver outfits). They host a therapeutic riding program - as they tell me the ONLY therapeutic riding program - in Manhattan. They also are affiliated with Another Chance 4 Horses, some they have taken and rehabbed work in their program. All horses work a few months then go to the farm for a few months. They DO retire their horses as do several other companies.

Me? I'm all for carriages in NY... lets ban the lousy car drivers. We need to connect those living in cities to animals and nature in any way we can. Losing the connection through urbanization and suburbanization (other than on computer and TV) is part of a major problem we have in our world now

By the way. If you DO support horses. Please take a moment to write to NYC Council and let them know

www.council.nyc.gov/html/home/home.shtml (http://www.council.nyc.gov/html/home/home.shtml)

Pat

Jan. 31, 2009, 09:30 PM

It will be unfortunate if some horses can't find homes, but I would be surprised. There can't be that many, and remember how people snatched up Claremont horses when the stable closed.

<smiles> I can go visit Hob(r)oken any time I want!!

lcw579

Jan. 31, 2009, 09:37 PM

tkhawk

Jan. 31, 2009, 09:37 PM

If the traffic conditions do not permit safe operation of carraiges, that is another issue. Nobody is saying horses should be allowed on the interstate. But at least from the video-they appear to be claiming it as abuse. Now if a certain operator is abusive-fine decertify or something-but why stop the whole thing. It is a lovely experience for people-especially for those who stay primarily in the cities.

BestHorses

Jan. 31, 2009, 11:34 PM

This issue seems to come and go every few years. I have to agree the time for carriages in NYC has past. I'm sure there are some drivers who love their animals, but it is a pretty miserable existence for those horses.

I used to live and work in NYC and those barns are scary. The horses must be saints to put up with the conditions and daily grind of traffic, pavement, pollution, etc. I always laughed on the hot days when it hit 90 degrees (I think that's the cutoff) and the horses had to stop working. The drivers would run them down the streets back to the stables. It didn't make a lot of sense to me that when you have to stop working because of the heat you'd run home!:o

I saw the Liam Neeson interview and I couldn't believe he was supporting them staying. I think he said something like "That's their job they don't know any different and they're happy to be there." I feel like the same could be said of those dancing bears. Still doesn't make it right. :no:

Old Equine Lady

Jan. 31, 2009, 11:43 PM

So if they ban horses in NYC from pulling carriages, then are they going to go after the people who still use horses to pull carriages, wagons and farm equipment too?

Woodland

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:17 AM

If I am not mistaken aren't most of the Handsome Cabs in Central Park? If I recall correctly there was lovely old barns there for the horses.

What is not to love? A job, good care, a comfy place to sleep, interesting things to see, usefulness, adoring crowds - horses love that stuff! So much better than being locked in a stall 24/7 because you might lose a bell boot or soil your blanket in turn out :rolleyes:

And after the carriage horses get the boot, police horses are sure to be next - BEWARE!!!!

silver2

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:36 AM

So if they ban horses in NYC from pulling carriages, then are they going to go after the people who still use horses to pull carriages, wagons and farm equipment too?
Probably eventers and race stables first. After all those farm horses must have lovely lives, living in a rural area where everything is sunshine and roses and all the animals run free together all the time.

City people drive me nuts sometimes.

Thomas_1

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:01 AM

AH!! I see you are uninitiated. Welcome to working with NYC politians. Stop expecting logic from them, your sanity is *just* not worth it. :lol:

Trust me I'm not so naive. Indeed we have exactly the same sort of breed of politician over here.

Currently putting through law to stop a 60 watt incandescent light bulb!!! whilst all around there's a collapse of the banking system and last week alone there were over 40,000 redundancies announced!

Great ! So we can sit in the dark out of work eating bread and dripping or gruel assured that our politicians have done all within their wit and wherewithall to save the environment and world economy!!! Yeh right :winkgrin:

I'd like to lead a lobbying group and get the New York legilsation changed:

BAN CARS - I SAY

They're polluting, noisy, fume producing and dangerous. They kill people frequently. Some of them are dirty and mechanically unsound and shouldn't be on the road. They consume the earth's resources and are environmentally unfriendly. They're often driven by idiots.

BAN CARS AND FORCE THE WHOLE OF NEW YORK BACK TO THE HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE :yes::winkgrin:

p.s. Of course all the old cars could be humanely destroyed and the younger ones put out to grass to rust and end their days. No cars would suffer as a result of my radical new legislation.

Frank B

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:36 AM

Cidiots!

Drive NJ

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:45 AM

If you wonder where this can lead, I just read an article in the paper about tea houses in Tokyo where you can go and visit with the 14 resident cats at $7 an hour. Seems this city has made it so difficult to own a cat, you have to rent time and order tea etc to spend some time with a real, live critter.

Meanwhile (says the same article) there are hundreds of thousands of strays put down annually in Japan

As Frank said CITIOTS.

People not really connected to animals make dumb laws, banning pets from housing etc.

For those who question the places the horses live... remember there are many ways to keep a horse. If the housing is safe, the food is there and they have good care and a job to do, they probably don't care much if the stalls are tongue in groove paneling, the grillwork is iron and the aisle floor is patterned brick

Remember the tale of the old delivery horse who didn't know what to do with himself when put 'out to pasture' until he created his own job of walking in circles around a tree.

By all means lets enforce the regulations already on the books to weed out the bad companies (much of which has already happened). But lets not put the good companies out of business in the process.

By the way... do all of you stop riding your horses when the temps hit 90? Typically around here, the show goes on.

twofatponies

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:50 AM

If I am not mistaken aren't most of the Handsome Cabs in Central Park? If I recall correctly there was lovely old barns there for the horses.

No. There are some lovely old barns which are now used as offices of some sort for Parks employees. The horses are housed in old multi-storey buildings (1800s style urban stables) many blocks away from the park.

For that matter the famous riding stable near central park that closed a few years ago was the same - the ground floor of the building was the "arena" (not anywhere near standard arena size, and full of support columns you had to dodge while riding) and the horses walked up steep ramps to the upper floors to their stalls. You could ride over to the park by going several blocks through city traffic, which many people did.

It's not necessarily good or bad, to my mind, I'm just clarifying that it is old-fashioned urban horse keeping, not acres of grass in the park like some imagine.

BestHorses

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:50 AM

If I am not mistaken aren't most of the Handsome Cabs in Central Park? If I recall correctly there was lovely old barns there for the horses.

The carriages work at Central Park. The horses are "stabled" in buildings (some look like regular apartments/offices on the outside) along the west side up to 1-1.5 miles away. Not far in distance for a horse, but a totally different experience for a horse in traffic on pavement when the cabs are whizzing by inches away. I wonder if the tourists could see the "stables" how many would still think the carriage rides are romantic?

Claremont (the stable that housed the riding horses) was frightening. It was a 3-4 story building that had standing stalls and some box stalls. The horses would travel between floors on plywood ramps that were about 45 degrees - no one was allowed to walk on the ramps - so you'd just catch the horse as it ran down from above. The police horse barn I saw was nice (this was before they were at Chelsea Piers.) It was equal to many public boarding barns with nice stalls and it was clean!

Unless they have tourists to cart around, the carriages wait along the entrance to the park on city streets with their front legs up on the curb and their hind legs in the gutter (uneven about 4-6 inches I'd say.) The Pony Clubber in me says :eek:

Are Amish horses subjected to worse? Probably. Are they vital to that way of life? YES! Carriage horses in NYC are vital only to amuse tourists. Not really a necessity in my book. Where do you draw the line with racing, eventing or riding an animal at all? I don't know. I do know I wouldn't want my horses living that life in the city.

Thomas1 I agree with you - there are WAY more important things for politicians to be discussing right now.

Silver2 - you say "City people drive you nuts." as if we have no clue about animals or farm life. I grew up on a farm with beef cattle and horses and chickens - the whole nine yards. Most of the people I knew in the city had moved there from rural parts of the country. It's not as black and white/us and them as certain media outlets want you to believe. :) Edited to say this applies to all you clever folks saying cidiots as well!

erinwillow

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:54 AM

Wow.

Well, I guess I need to say it. . .in a perfect world. . .they would have insisted on "horse paths" (hey, they did it for bicycles in some cities) and would have legislated SAFE areas for those good ol' pulling horses... .however, in todays rush rush ME first culture, especially in big cities I think that unless they enforce accomodations like mentioned above, the horses are really NOT in a good situation. That is to say, drivers in cars don't care that there is a lovely working animal in front of them. I'm sure numbers of them have been side swiped and/or hit. It's a mess really. The problem is no one wants to take a thoughtful approach to anything. It's always so black and white: either this or that never any good rulings in between. I was just in Cincinnati, Ohio for the annual USEF / Connemara meeting and there were some lovely carriage horses around. I thought they were beautiful but I couldn't help but notice how maybe I was the only one?? :eek: Cars paid them no mind and I truly truly felt very badly.

tkhawk

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:39 AM

The carriages work at Central Park. The horses are "stabled" in buildings (some look like regular apartments/offices on the outside) along the west side up to 1-1.5 miles away. Not far in distance for a horse, but a totally different experience for a horse in traffic on pavement when the cabs are whizzing by inches away. I wonder if the tourists could see the "stables" how many would still think the carriage rides are romantic?

Claremont (the stable that housed the riding horses) was frightening. It was a 3-4 story building that had standing stalls and some box stalls. The horses would travel between floors on plywood ramps that were about 45 degrees - no one was allowed to walk on the ramps - so you'd just catch the horse as it ran down from above. The police horse barn I saw was nice (this was before they were at Chelsea Piers.) It was equal to many public boarding barns with nice stalls and it was clean!

Unless they have tourists to cart around, the carriages wait along the entrance to the park on city streets with their front legs up on the curb and their hind legs in the gutter (uneven about 4-6 inches I'd say.) The Pony Clubber in me says :eek:

Why would you think that makes the horses unhappy? Animals adjust-so do humans. I moved and now live in a studio downtown. I can watch the planes going in to land from my studio. There is a ton of noise. Before this, I was north of LA, beautiful apt, lots of space, remote, beautiful landscaping, lots of open space. it took me one month to adjust and I am now ok. Now if I am locked in in my studio 24/7, I would go crazy. But this is great- a lovely experience. I used to work downtown and commute from the burbs and so this is a new and lovely experience for me.

Horses love a job. As long as they are not stuck in there 24/7-who is to say that they are not happy? They adjust-yes a pasture may be ideal-I have seen so many depressed horses in pasture -all by themselves just standing and staring out, with no one to handle them at all. As long as it not abusive-most horses I know love to work and have a job and adjust remarkably well. A lot of horses do enjoy the company and interaction with humans-as long as it is not abusive.
Why take that away because you are interpreting with your own views.

There is an old saying"One man's meat is another man's poison". It is true. Even with humans, what is a thriving , stimulating experience for one, can drive another insane. So is it with horses-some just may thrive there..

Sail Away

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:56 AM

Cidiots!

Why are they cidiots? Now city people can't make rules in the city where they live?

Pat

Feb. 1, 2009, 11:20 AM

By the way... do all of you stop riding your horses when the temps hit 90? Typically around here, the show goes on.

You do understand that if the city DIDN'T put some kind of cap on this, then people would carry on, regardless of the temperature/humidity/air quality?

You do understand that we are talking about NYC, not a show up state? You do understand that if it's 90 degrees in the City, it is also likely to be 95% (or worse) humidity? That the air quality is pretty gross at this point? If some ding dong wants to go jogging in that, it's his problem. The horses don't get a voice in that decision.

Not to mention that when showing you 'work' in rather brief spurts and often have the time to take the horse back to the tent/your trailer in between classes. An average show horse, while actually showing, works for an hour to 90 minutes in a day (interupted by periods of waiting), is then fluffed and folded and tucked in with a big pile of hay, then later he gets a leisurely stroll to eat grass. Heck, some people even bring a generator and run fans in the tents! Apples and oranges.

At Chelsea, I caught my grooms breathing on the thermometer, 'trying to make it 90 so thier horses could stop'. I thought about it for a minute and started to help.

CEC was no prize, but atleast we had some elbow room with the two arenas and a decent breeze off the river when we opened the roll up doors.

Paragon

Feb. 1, 2009, 12:46 PM

Are Amish horses subjected to worse? Probably. Are they vital to that way of life? YES! Carriage horses in NYC are vital only to amuse tourists. Not really a necessity in my book.

Hmm. I think this is a bit of an excuse. The beliefs of the Amish are still just beliefs, and if we're to believe that certain conditions are unacceptable for horses, it should be across the board. Either it's okay or it isn't. None of this "Well, they really believe it" business.

I know that rural Pennsylvania is different from NYC. ;) I'm merely commenting on the comparison as stated above.

twofatponies

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:16 PM

Hmm. I think this is a bit of an excuse. The beliefs of the Amish are still just beliefs, and if we're to believe that certain conditions are unacceptable for horses, it should be across the board. Either it's okay or it isn't. None of this "Well, they really believe it" business....

And then we just go down the rabbit hole! Who's to say the Amish aren't right, and God is making a special place in hell for all of us who drive cars & wear the wrong kind of hat? You really can't prove it either way... :D

Jealoushe

Feb. 1, 2009, 04:17 PM

Horses love a job. As long as they are not stuck in there 24/7-who is to say that they are not happy? They adjust-yes a pasture may be ideal-I have seen so many depressed horses in pasture -all by themselves just standing and staring out, with no one to handle them at all. As long as it not abusive-most horses I know love to work and have a job and adjust remarkably well. A lot of horses do enjoy the company and interaction with humans-as long as it is not abusive.
Why take that away because you are interpreting with your own views.

I'm sure the horses will be so depressed having to move out to the country to graze all day...

Beverley

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:29 PM

You'll never convince me that a horse working in a dense city environment has it any worse than the average overfed, overstabled hunter or dressage horse.

I have two points: One is, beware of the unqualified defining what is acceptable or unacceptable use of the horse, because where PETA and HSUS are headed is exactly toward 'you', the horse owner, and they want to define out of existence your right to own and enjoy horses.

The second, related to the first is, once you have laws inappopriately defining 'where' horses are allowed (which is pretty much everywhere except the interstate), then it isn't long before local, then state, governments start saying 'no horses on ANY roads, it's dangerous to people driving cars, pedestrians, hikers, bikers, yada yada yada...' and before you know it, all horses are stuck in arenas.

I will make the same argument for carriage horses in NYC that I will make for ANY use of horses: The particular use is not inherently cruel. Establish REAL humane treatment standards, and ENFORCE them.

silver2

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:30 PM

I think people being appalled by horses being kept in the city are being totally hypocritical. None of you have dogs in an urban setting? Or indoor cats? That's a completely unnatural life too and often not a lot of fun for the animal. None of you keep your dogs in crates for hours at a time? (which I personally think IS abusive).

These horses get to spend all day outside with people, they probably have a much more enjoyable and interesting life than your average boarded horse that gets ridden 4 times a week and spends most of it's time in a small area. I'm sure they are in much better health and much fitter too. And more importantly, this is their job- expecting working animals to work is NOT abusive in and of itself and it scares me to see people starting to think this way. Will we ban quide dogs next? Talk about an unnatural life!

ETA, yes banning horses from roads is something I can see happening. Right before they ban riding them altogether.

Paragon

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:37 PM

I will make the same argument for carriage horses in NYC that I will make for ANY use of horses: The particular use is not inherently cruel. Establish REAL humane treatment standards, and ENFORCE them.

VERY well said. I agree entirely.

tkhawk

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:55 PM

I'm sure the horses will be so depressed having to move out to the country to graze all day...

Yes some will-especially working horses. Before I moved, my mare was in pasture-the moment she heard my truck, she would be at the gate waiting for me. I do trail , often by myself and she loved it more than just being stuck in the pasture. When we are heading back , she often wanted to add another loop, before heading back to the trailer.

A lot of horses I know love to go out and do their thing. If you are abusive and/or there are physical/pain issues, that is different. Some times, the horse may not like/is not suitable for the job at hand, which is different. But otherwise, just throwing them in pasture and not doing anything with them, when they are well trained,used to work and in their prime is certainly not utopia.

vacation1

Feb. 1, 2009, 05:56 PM

I like seeing horses in the city, but I think I could live with the carriage trade being banned. What people from more rural areas don't seem to be 'getting' here is that everything does have to be legislated in a densely inhabited environment because there is always someone who will do just say "What? Show me where it says I can't do this!" as they butcher a steer in their apartment hallway - and in a highly populated area, their insane actions impact a lot of people, not just one hapless neighbor a couple acres over. The reason I'd be okay with a ban isn't a cruelty issue - I'm not sure I think it's unacceptably cruel to have carriage horses in the city - but because I think that the government agencies that are tasked with enforcing the animal humane laws are already strained and , and having them monitor stable owners is a waste of public resources.

lcw579

Feb. 1, 2009, 06:03 PM

You do understand that if the city DIDN'T put some kind of cap on this, then people would carry on, regardless of the temperature/humidity/air quality?

You do understand that we are talking about NYC, not a show up state? You do understand that if it's 90 degrees in the City, it is also likely to be 95% (or worse) humidity? That the air quality is pretty gross at this point? If some ding dong wants to go jogging in that, it's his problem. The horses don't get a voice in that decision.

Not to mention that when showing you 'work' in rather brief spurts and often have the time to take the horse back to the tent/your trailer in between classes. An average show horse, while actually showing, works for an hour to 90 minutes in a day (interupted by periods of waiting), is then fluffed and folded and tucked in with a big pile of hay, then later he gets a leisurely stroll to eat grass. Heck, some people even bring a generator and run fans in the tents! Apples and oranges.

Have you never been to a local show where the overworked school pony is forced to tote kid after kid around in the heat and humidity? Those horses don't get a "vote" and don't get a lot of rest or water either. I've seen this happen time and again with more than one offender over the years. No fans for them just a hot trailer ride home. Somehow I think they might want to trade with the carriage horses for a week or two. A walk through traffic and the park would be better than a day at the show I would think.

You'll never convince me that a horse working in a dense city environment has it any worse than the average overfed, overstabled hunter or dressage horse.

I have two points: One is, beware of the unqualified defining what is acceptable or unacceptable use of the horse, because where PETA and HSUS are headed is exactly toward 'you', the horse owner, and they want to define out of existence your right to own and enjoy horses.

The second, related to the first is, once you have laws inappopriately defining 'where' horses are allowed (which is pretty much everywhere except the interstate), then it isn't long before local, then state, governments start saying 'no horses on ANY roads, it's dangerous to people driving cars, pedestrians, hikers, bikers, yada yada yada...' and before you know it, all horses are stuck in arenas.

I will make the same argument for carriage horses in NYC that I will make for ANY use of horses: The particular use is not inherently cruel. Establish REAL humane treatment standards, and ENFORCE them.

Beverly, I agree with you completely.

FWIW the carriage horses I have "met" in Philly have been friendly and happy looking beasties on the lookout for treats. They seem quite unconcerned by traffic and enjoy the attention they get from anyone who stops to say hello.

silver2

Feb. 1, 2009, 07:29 PM

I'm sure the horses will be so depressed having to move out to the country to graze all day...
I'm pretty sure most of the horses will go to slaughter, which I imagine will ruin their day.

And, btw, as far as a pampered show horse only working for an hour a day then being "tucked in" to a stall? That's not nearly enough time spent physically active to keep them fit and healthy. Horses can easily and should imho, work at a slow pace or be outisde moving around for at least several hours per day. Ideally the majority of the day several days per week. It's much better for them in the long run.

Woodland

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:10 PM

I just love the "Set them free" comments :rolleyes: They would die if they had to survive on pasture alone with no shoer or wormer in sight. I mean what the heck they are DOMESTICATED animals! not "wild" horses. My exceedingly under worked overly pampered horse would be taken down in a heart beat by a pack of errant Pomeranian's if he were "set free" :lol: For Pete's sake!!!

Larksmom

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:21 PM

I have ridden at claremont when I was in New York, and I hated to see it close. As I recall, the horses walked down a side street that had almost NO traffic on it. I believe there was an understanding with the locals...The horses were very calm and it was a very enjoyable ride. I have mixed emotions about whether or not it should have been closed but that is for another discussion. We have carriage horses in Kansas City on the Plaza and I am not particularly fond of this. Unlike New York, they are CONSTANTLY in heavy traffic. In fact, there weren't even stop sign there till about ten years ago. They are stabled a mile away and lumber down 47th street. I personally do not think they look happy, but I do not know much about driving.
I do not think these people would intensionaly do harm to their horses, but in Central Park, I do not think they have to deal with as much traffic. Do they?

lolalola

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:27 PM

How many posters have horses at a boarding barn where they may get a couple of hours of turnout a day, and are ridden for an hour or so a few times a week? The rest of the time they are stuck in a stall - I think that is more cruel than a well-cared for carriage horse in NYC. The woman DriveNJ mentioned takes excellent care of her horses, and her stables are regularly inspected by the city.

UFTemptation

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:30 PM

Check out this website: http://www.blindersthemovie.com/ I saw this movie at a local movie festival and got to talk to the guy that made it. There are some really graphic images in the movie. It was really interesting to see and to talk to the guy. While I always smile when I go into NYC and see the horses (ok, so I smile whenever I see a horse, and if I drive by horses while in my truck, I still go LOOK AT THE PONIES!!), I do think it can be a fairly dangerous environment if they are not kept to Central Park and areas where there is not a lot of car traffic. There were some pretty horrible images of horses and carts that were hit by cars. There are other cities that have already banned horses and carriages for that reason.

Also, for those of you talking about horses having to work in 90+ heat and comparing it to NYC... Remember, when the horses are working in 90+ heat in the city, they are working on asphalt which reflects the heat and makes it hotter. And the people who are showing and working their horses in 90+ degree heat outside the city should know when it is and when it is not appropriate to work their horses and how hard. Shame on them for working a horse hard in excessive heat. I am happy that they have a set temperature for what is too hot to work the horses in and enforce it.

Another thing that scares me is the multilevel barns the horses are kept in. If there was a fire (Heaven forbid) how on earth would they get the horses out? This is a scary enough risk at any regular boarding barn outside a city, but when you have to take horses up and down ramps to get them in and out of their stalls, that just increases the chances of being unable to get horses out in the event of an emergency.

MistyBlue

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:54 PM

No horses in cities? Or ridden/at work all day? Y'all gonna have a helluva time getting those horses out from under the mounted policemen. :winkgrin:

grandprixjump

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:19 PM

And the 3 companies there take very good care of their horses, one place had no turn out at their in town barn, but traded horses out of town a couple times a week, the place I worked for was at what USED to be a slaughter house, and they had about 4 acres of turnout, but also had places out of downtown where they took horses too for vacation.

In all the years carriages have been in Indy, there have been about 5 serious accidents, in about 25+ years that's not too bad. After the last one, a drunk driver hitting a carriage, and knocking the driver off the carriage. PETA tried to get the city to remove the carriage horses, they didn't get very far.

Woodland

Feb. 1, 2009, 10:19 PM

UFTemptation What a sensationalistic post and total propaganda movie :no: Shame on you!

Horses and carriages get hit by cars - nearly every time it is the CAR that is the perpetrator. Ask anyone who lives in Amish country.

You PETA people are a PITA

Do you think horses are not able to deal with rain sleet and snow? Heat and cold? God made them amazingly adaptable and purposeful and useful. They are not hot house flowers.

And stable fires are your primary concern? Because they are multi storied :rolleyes: My neighbor had an adorable 2 stall barn - ONE level! While she was at work one snowy day her cute little place burned to the ground and both horses - who were snuggled in deep bedding and high end blankies to protect them from a gentle snow fall perished in the blaze. So it happens and there is little a multi storied stable has to do with stable fires - that is just SILLY talk!

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:45 AM

I'm thinking that the way this thread has disolved is just evidence of why politicians shouldn't mess with trivia and why the logic was flawed in the first instance.

Banning horse drawn carriages in a city because SOME horses might be in the hands of inappropriate owners and inappropriate conditions is just stark staring bonkers. That's the reason to go after THOSE specific owners and take action against them specifically.

Likewise banning them because SOME horses might be badly and inappropriately stabled with no turn out at all..... ever then this is again NOT the reason to ban them all. IF it's accepted that this is wrong..... and I for one actually think it is..... then there needs to be a radical rethink of animal welfare legislation generally. There's a heck of a lot of horses kept with no turn out at all. And not just in cities!

Banning them because the city traffic is appalling and impossible to make safe is a logical reason though it begs lots of questions such as:

Why can't safer areas be found? What if anything can be done about traffic calming measures?

And the 3 companies there take very good care of their horses, one place had no turn out at their in town barn, but traded horses out of town a couple times a week, the place I worked for was at what USED to be a slaughter house, and they had about 4 acres of turnout, but also had places out of downtown where they took horses too for vacation. That's how a lot of companies operate in Europe. The horses are trucked into the city for a week or two then back to pasture land and turn out for a few days. IMO that seems like a solution and certainly seems a lot better than the likes of having leisure horses all by themselves in little pipe corals.

After the last one, a drunk driver hitting a carriage, and knocking the driver off the carriage. PETA tried to get the city to remove the carriage horses, Seems like a logic..... ;) And a heck of a lot simpler than litigating and imprisoning the drunken prat who thought it was o.k. to drive.

Perhaps the PETA representative is a politician in the making. :)

UFTemptation

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:53 AM

UFTemptation What a sensationalistic post and total propaganda movie :no: Shame on you!

I'm sorry, I thought the movie was interesting to watch and it was interesting to talk to the guy. I didn't make it, just thought it was an interesting film.

Horses and carriages get hit by cars - nearly every time it is the CAR that is the perpetrator. Ask anyone who lives in Amish country.

I didn't say it was the horses or carriage drivers fault. I just think that if they kept the horses in Central Park to areas where there is less car traffic, they are putting the horses at less risk of being injured, as we all know horses are unpredictable animals, even the best carriage horses can spook and if they spook and dart in front of a car it can be devestating.

You PETA people are a PITA

Thanks for implying that I am a PETA person. which I am not at all. Way to jump to conclusions.

Do you think horses are not able to deal with rain sleet and snow? Heat and cold? God made them amazingly adaptable and purposeful and useful. They are not hot house flowers.

No kidding. I've ridden for a very long time, in rain cold, sleet snow, heat, etc. I just think there is a point where it is too hot and humid to work a horse, as well as too cold. My personal feelings. I don't like to work a horse if it is much below 20 degrees, and if it is way above 90 with a high humidity level I'm not going to ride either. My thoughts.

And stable fires are your primary concern? Because they are multi storied :rolleyes: My neighbor had an adorable 2 stall barn - ONE level! While she was at work one snowy day her cute little place burned to the ground and both horses - who were snuggled in deep bedding and high end blankies to protect them from a gentle snow fall perished in the blaze. So it happens and there is little a multi storied stable has to do with stable fires - that is just SILLY talk!

As I said, stable fires are a scary thing even for regular boarding barns (single level facilities). It can be hard enough to get horses out of a one level facility, but how would YOU get horses out in an emergency from a multiple level facility? I am very sorry about your neighbors horses, and I have known people who have lost barns and horses to fires as well. It is a concern!

I don't think banning horses from the city is necessarily necessary. I just would like to see them kept to areas where there is less traffic. Excuse me for having an opinion. There have been other cities around the country that have banned carriage horses. While it may be the CAR's fault (try the driver of the car) some horses get hit, why put the horses at that risk?

Jealoushe

Feb. 2, 2009, 11:15 AM

I'm pretty sure most of the horses will go to slaughter, which I imagine will ruin their day.

And, btw, as far as a pampered show horse only working for an hour a day then being "tucked in" to a stall? That's not nearly enough time spent physically active to keep them fit and healthy. Horses can easily and should imho, work at a slow pace or be outisde moving around for at least several hours per day. Ideally the majority of the day several days per week. It's much better for them in the long run.

Why would they automatically go to slaughter, or just thrown in a field? I was commenting as if they would still be in use in some way. Just because they aren't working doesn't mean they won't get attention.

BabyGreen

Feb. 2, 2009, 11:32 AM

Last summer, after a concert here in Memphis, I came upon the aftermath of an accident where a car rear-ended a horse-drawn carriage--nobody's fault, it was dark, the street was busy, alchohol was not a factor. It must have happened just 10 minutes before I got there. Thank goodness the horse was ok, but the carriage was demolished and the carriage driver injured and sent to the hospital.

The carriage horses here (mostly drafts or draft-crosses) seem to be fairly well-kept in general, but I know the drivers are hired without horse-handling qualifications.

Although "picturesque" and fun for tourists, I always am uneasy (for both horses and people) about the potential for accidents.

But in no way do I believe that using horses for driving is inherently cruel.

spaghetti legs

Feb. 2, 2009, 12:42 PM

Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.

Beverley

Feb. 2, 2009, 03:31 PM

Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.

Well, so, please provide info to support your thoughts. When you say underweight- what was their body score? Ill kept how? Lack of grooming or something else? How, to you, does a horse look miserable? For example- the uninformed might take a horse with its head down and a foot cocked, taking a snooze, as 'looking' miserable. To me, it would look like it was taking a nap. Misery might be more evident in body language when the horse is at work- look in the eyes, position of ears, tail carriage, among other indicators- so do share with us what you saw.

Woodland

Feb. 2, 2009, 06:43 PM

Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.

Certainly not the ones I have seen, or the ones pictured in the news clip.

Can you support this statement with pictures at least?

Raquel

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:06 PM

Well I think the carriage horses in NYC look miserable, Most looked illkept and were underweight.

I have to agree. I've seen many skinny, unkempt horses pulling carriages through the crazy streets of Manhattan.
I think a ban would be a good thing.:yes:

equinelaw

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:07 PM

Certainly not the ones I have seen, or the ones pictured in the news clip.

Can you support this statement with pictures at least?

Someone linked to an entire film and lots of pictures. You said it was propaganda and lies.

Raquel

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:11 PM

Certainly not the ones I have seen, or the ones pictured in the news clip.

Can you support this statement with pictures at least?

I've witnessed it and if I had pics, I would share them.
It's funny when I tried to take a pic of one of the skinny horses, I was cursed out by the carriage driver!:eek:

Twomanydawgs

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:13 PM

I'm *not* going to bash heads on this one, and I'm directing my response to the comment, not the commentator. (just to be clear, Thomas)

I didn't read the link yet, so I'm just coming from a place of general experience on the subject.

Thomas, I'll warrant that not every person who drives a carriage on a city street is not a bad person... Moreover, I'm sure that not every body who works for the NYC carriage people is a bad person... But I've worked in that part of the City. It is NOT a place for horses. They are stabled inches from the West Side Highway. Thier "barn" is just dreadful, and I wouldn't stash a rank and dangerous animal there, much less a hard working one the earns his keep everyday!

I also 100% believe that NYC in general is NO PLACE for a working animal. It is noisy, dirty and just not a place for a horse. 100 years ago, sure. Maybe even 50 years ago. No longer. I didn't shed a tear when Chelsea Eq and later Claremont were closed. And Chelsea wasn't too bad, relative to other 'barns'. I'm glad it's gotten some use as the stables for the Mounted Police horses. I understand why the NYPD continues to utilize them, but I don't think it's good for the animals. But atleast they have moved into a better building than the old on 42nd street.

I've also been witness to the corruption of the people directly overseeing the horses living in NYC. I've been literally chased by a man seeking a bribe. My barn wasn't doing anything wrong, nothing to bribe you over, asshat! I'm absolutely certain that he gets plenty of reasons to over look many things that involve the carriages.

All romanticsm aside, it's about TIME.

FYI from a very, reliable source...NYPD still keeps horses on 42nd st:yes:.

UFTemptation

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:16 PM

Someone linked to an entire film and lots of pictures. You said it was propaganda and lies.

Don't forget, I'm a PETA person too (insert gag icon here). I have seen some questionably sound horses in central park. I have also seen some very nicely turned out and cared for horses. I still don't think that NYC is the place for horses.

tkhawk

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:08 PM

I have seen some questionably sound horses in central park. I have also seen some very nicely turned out and cared for horses. I still don't think that NYC is the place for horses.

That is the thing-that is the same everywhere. There are enough starving horses in people's backyards and even some high end trainers. Then there are heavily overweight horses. Stop the individual, not the whole .
pedestrians get run over by cars too-city life. I would be curious to know the stats for collisions . If there is real danger, due to traffic conditions, that is a totally different issue. You are not allowed to walk or ride or use bicycles on the interstate-that is toally different issue due to safety and not abuse allegations.

Some people claim eventing, rodeo, racing is abuse and want to stop that too. Stop the abuses in each sport, not the entire sport..

Beverley

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:49 PM

I have to agree. I've seen many skinny, unkempt horses pulling carriages through the crazy streets of Manhattan.
I think a ban would be a good thing.:yes:

Well, Raquel, maybe since you couldn't quite manage to get pics, you could answer the same questions that Spaghetti Legs hasn't yet responded to:

"When you say underweight- what was their body score? Ill kept how? Lack of grooming or something else? How, to you, does a horse look miserable? For example- the uninformed might take a horse with its head down and a foot cocked, taking a snooze, as 'looking' miserable. To me, it would look like it was taking a nap. Misery might be more evident in body language when the horse is at work- look in the eyes, position of ears, tail carriage, among other indicators- so do share with us what you saw."

In periodic visits to NYC dating back to 1972, can't say I've ever seen one carriage horse that looked skinny or unkempt, so I await your enlightenment.

Paragon

Feb. 3, 2009, 08:48 AM

The naysayers keep avoiding the real issue here.

If the issue truly is just about banning carriages in NYC, the proponents are short-sighted fools who know not what havoc they'll ultimately be wreaking.

There are countless questions associated with such a ban, and they're questions that should be answered.

Are we deciding that the conditions are too hot? If so, how and when will we address the matter of horses working in too-hot conditions at shows and races, in Amish country, and the like?

Are we deciding that the job is too strenuous? If so, how and when will we address the matter of working horses everywhere, many of whom concentrate their efforts in a much more focused manner, lathering themselves for the entertainment and enjoyment of people?

Are we deciding that the conditions are too dangerous? If so, how and when will we address the Amish horses who are killed on the roads, or the sporting horses who suffer sometimes-catastrophic injuries in the process of simply doing their jobs?

Are we deciding that the horses are poorly-cared for, living in unsuitable conditions? If so, how and when will we address the varied (and noisy) opinions about work vs. pasture life, stalls vs. living outdoors, barefoot vs. shod, bitless vs. bitted, and the whole range of other anecdotal solutions pertaining to horsekeeping? And how will we measure the contentedness of not only carriage animals, but all working and pleasure animals?

Simply banning carriages in NYC does nothing to address the real problem and does everything to push further problems and scrutiny on the rest of the horse world - much of which, like city carriage companies themselves, have no reason to be assaulted. Let's get down to the real problems.