First thing to add for a Hard Keeper?

[TeamBrickman]

Hi all,

I've just added a sweet coming 4-year-old 16.1 TB gelding to our small backyard crew. He's a total doll, and we're all completely in love with him.

Our guys are blanketed, out 24/7 (everyone has stalls, but only come in during severe weather). They get free-choice grass hay, and come in for breakfast and dinner, mixed according to what works for them.

Our new boy has been getting 4 quarts of Triple Crown Senior and a cup of oil per day, split between two feeds. He's in very light work-- weather's gross, he's easy going, and we're perfectly happy to wait until Spring to see what he wants to be.

He came to us thin and kind of rough looking, but I figured after good dental care, a PowerPac, some good feed, and turnout with free choice hay, he'd come around.

But he's been with us six weeks now, and although I'm ashamed to admit it, he still looks pretty awful! He's still thin, and his coat's still dry and rough.

I have alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, rice bran and vegetable/canola oil readily available. My local feed store stocks all the Triple Crown feeds.

What do you all recommend to start adding some weight to this horse?

Thanks in advance-- he's a gorgeous boy, and we really want to do right by him.

[Simkie]

First thing I do for a hard keeper is a panacur power pac followed by a praziquantel wormer. You mention a power pac, but have you wormed him for tapes?

Six weeks is really not much time. Have you seen any gain at all? If he is off the track, he almost certainly has ulcers. You may want to scope him, or just treat him with Gastrogard or ranitadine.

My hard keeping horse eats 9 quarts of TC Senior/day plus 1 c cocosoya oil and free choice hay. Your guy may just need more calories.

[A Horse of Course]

I would add in some of those alfalfa pellets and some rice bran. Not all of them seem to like rice bran, I do think there is a difference in quality among the different brands, I prefer ADM Alliance Natural Glo, but it's a huge calorie and nutrient boost for those that will eat it.
If he likes it I would gradually bring him up to 1-2lbs a day on top of the feed he is already getting.

My hard keeper TB mare in the winter would get 15-18lbs of alfalfa cubes, 1lb of rice bran 2x a day and free choice grass hay in the winter, she stayed nicely filled out on that. At one point I got her too plump, that wasn't in the winter though.

[Rescue Pony]

My throughbred is on round bales with alf. And he gets 1/2 scoop 12% sweet feed and 1/2 scoop beet pulp. Also gets hoof suppliment and 4 ounces on flax seed. He has always been skinny being a rescue but this winter he is fat!

[dwblover]

I would actually say you may just need a little more time. I bought my 5 year old OTTB three months ago. He was horribly thin and rough-looking. I immediately had his teeth done, panacur powerpaced him, and also tape wormed him. I thought he would start to put on weight right away and was disappointed when he had only gained a tiny bit at the month and a half mark. It really is just recently, as in the last two weeks that he has started to look healthy and I can really notice the weight gain. So you may still have another six weeks or so to really see the difference in your guy. Another thing that I believe really helped him recently was putting him on Smartpak's Smartdigest Ultra. Great stuff, especially when they have probably not had the best care in the past. I also add one cup of aloe vera juice to his grain per day to help soothe his stomach. My guy eats Triple Crown Senior as well. And I second worming your guy for tapeworms if you haven't already. Tapes are just about the only thing a Powerpac won't kill.

[Lady Counselor]

Ditto on the re-worming.
I had very good luck with either Rice Bran or Omegatin. (a flax seed based, nutrient dense pelleted top dressing)
I also feed alfalfa cubes (not too much) to the horses. I have one TB who is a wicked hard keper. Right now (knock on wood) he looks really good.

[HalfArabian]

ditto on the time. I have seen some TB's do well with some soaked beet pulp added to their rations. What kind of oil are you giving? My friend give Cocosoya(sp) to her TB. Sounds like you are on the right track though.

Karen

[tpup]

4 quarts of TC sounds like a meager amount for a hard keeper. Mine is on 7-8 pounds and that's to maintain - he is no longer thin. Read the bag and feed him the amount appropriate for his work. TC is a complete feed and is meant to be fed in higher quantities. You can also call TC and speak to a rep - they are excellent and give great advice.

As for worming, instead of worming him blindly, get a fecal done first. Get an accurate egg count and worm him appropriately for what he needs. I was about to worm my guy - did a fecal and he had ZERO eggs or problems in his fecal. Ruled that out with a cheap fecal test.

My hard keeper got all in your list - TC, beet pulp, rice bran and corn oil. When spring arrived he bloomed on grass and I really feel the rice bran made the biggest difference for him. We also fed him 3 times a day vs. 2 and I think that helped too.

Good luck!

[sid]

The first thing I'd do is increase the oil to 2 cups/day. I'd also gradually up his feed to four lbs. 3 times per day. I'd also consider changing to a beet pulp-based Sr. feed, like Pennfield. TC's is rice-hull based (at least when I used it years ago).

Free choice hay.

It can take a horse that is very thin more than 6 weeks to start putting on weight.

[merrygoround]

I would give some thought to the fact that he is 4 and still growing. His haircoat will take more than 6weeks to show a change.

[magnolia73]

Niki dropped weight when she went from having grass to none. I tried oil and it was useless, just a mess and put zero weight on her. Plus the barn is skimpy with hay.

I ended up with her getting 4-6 flakes a day of ok hay a day, 9lbs of legends 11 a day,. Then I feed her a lunch of a scoop of dry beetpulp soaked, 2lbs of rice bran and when she was still thin, a scoop of weightbuilder by Farnam. It took her about 6-8 weeks on that program to put the lost weight back on. Now that she looks good, I dropped the weightbuilder. Her coat is super shiny and healthy.

[c5rose]

Two of my horses were hardkeepers (5 yo OTTB and 19 yo QH). I put them on Source about 4 months ago, and haven't had to up their feed or add bp to their meals so far yet this year, and we've had near-record cold up north.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I've played around with a few different things for my hard keeper TB.

The diet he is on now has given me the most success. He actually lost weight on Triple Crown Complete even though he was getting the correct amount. I have never fed the senior though.

Currently he is on Vintage Performance Low Starch by Blue Seal. A 12% protien 12% fat and higher fiber.

4 cups of an alfalfa pellet.

A cup of vegetable oil.

About the same amount of Cider Vinegar.

A cup of flax.

And Ultra-Elite Digest.

That diet has worked well with him. He gets calories and protein without a lot of sugar.

I feel that the Low Starch feed and digestive supplement made a bit difference with him.

I would give your guy more time though because my TB was in very rough shape when I got him and it did take a few months to notice a drastic change. Originally when I got him he gained weight off of a basic pellet and corn oil with free choice hay...but he wasn't in much work then either. I do recommend a digestive supplement or ulcer treatment since he is a TB and they are prone to ulcers. Digestive supplements I like are Smart Digest Ultra, Ultra-Elite Digest and TractGuard.

[Cherry]

I also agree the horse needs more time to put on weight and shed that coat. ;) When he sheds it's likely you'll see a new horse underneath all that hair! :yes:

Has this horse come off the track recently? The reason I ask, track horses tend to look worse before they look better due to all the changes they go through coming off the track--they're not being pumped full of various drugs and their metabolism slows down, etc. This is known in some TB circles as "let down syndrome"--it's not fatal, although it seems like it might be at the time.... :winkgrin:

You can add more hay in the form of alfalfa pellets or hay stretcher pellets. The Blue Seal Hay Stretcher pellets have calcium carbonate in them that will help keep the horse quiet while the Nutrena hay stretcher pellets (or the Agway hay stretcher pellets--both are made by Cargill) have added probiotics to aid in digestion.

You also have wiggle room to add more of the TC Senior, if you so desire.

I would add probiotics if neither of the above seem to look like they're working after a month or so though. With Spring coming on I would tend to suggest adding an ounce (or two) of Diamond V yeast every day.... You can find Diamond V at most feed stores.

Source would not be a bad thing to add to your horse's diet though--it would give him mocronutrients, which is never a bad thing. Although I used to think Source was a waste of money, over the years I have completely changed my mind about it. It occurs to me that one of the things it does is to support the thyroid--when I hear of a rough, dull coat that makes me think that the thyroid may need to be supported (as well as deworming)....

Good luck!

[yellowbritches]

Is it my imagination, or did no one say give more hay? This is always where I start if I have a hard keeper or someone drops a few pounds when their work increases, I throw them more hay.

Maybe throw him some more hay in his stall when he comes into eat and let him hang inside a little longer, if he's happy with that (this has always worked well when I've had a skinny one kept outside). He may not be eating as much hay as he could out in the group.

After that, I think I'd be wary of throwing more TC at him, since his work load is light. You want him to come down from being racehorse fit, so don't keep feeding him like a racehorse, especially when he's not working hard. I agree with others who say more alfalfa pellets and either more oil or rice bran.

I also agree with giving him more time. It may take awhile, especially since you are working in the worst part of the year to get some weight on him. Getting fat in the winter is easy for humans, hard for horses. ;) Keep him warm, make sure he eats LOTS of hay, even if it means more time in a stall, and just hang in there. I'll bet spring will roll around and he'll blossom like crazy.

[in_the_zone]

Grain: Max 5lbs per feeding. Feed at least 2x a day. If you can split it into 3, even better. TC Complete (rice bran based) or Senior (beet pulp based) seem to work well and you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Oil: Love Cocasoya, but it's a bit on the spendy side. It does come with a snazzy pump though that seems to fit on most container. I like the Costo brand Canola oil for best price. Up to 2 cups a day.

Supplements: Fat Cat! It's cheap and it works! Here's 4 pages of testimonials from people who agree. http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=65#reviews I haven't tried anything else because I just haven't needed to.

Hay: Keep it in front of them as much as possible. If ulcers are a concern, consider alfalfa since the calcium in it works as a buffer.

[joiedevie99]

If you are feeding senior, which is a complete feed, 2 quarts twice a day isn't a whole lot. I'd up the feed before I added anything else.

[gabz]

Since he's most likely low man on the totem pole - I'm sure he's not getting as much hay as he could be using. And being outside 24/7 rather than a stall environment he may have come from, he's using more calories with moving around.

While doing a fecal is often recommended - it doesn't reveal several different parasites that the horse could have. I too, advocate, at this point, a dose of ivermectin, followed in 3-4 weeks, with Equimax - for tapes and any left over/newly emerged from the ivermectin.

It's always recommended to go slowly with increasing feed and increasing weight. Leaving him in longer - with another horse in a stall near him - and giving him some hay before turning him out would be one way. Adding hay cubes - soaked - to his feed will help. Getting him the right ratio of minerals and probiotics so that he can really use what he's eating is another requirement, until he balances out. Which could take up to 6 months.

Lastly - add some loose salt to his feed. This will make him drink more, which will increase the digestion of what he is eating. Adding water weight is very helpful for horses that need to gain weight.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

Grain: Max 5lbs per feeding. Feed at least 2x a day. If you can split it into 3, even better. TC Complete (rice bran based) or Senior (beet pulp based) seem to work well and you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Oil: Love Cocasoya, but it's a bit on the spendy side. It does come with a snazzy pump though that seems to fit on most container. I like the Costo brand Canola oil for best price. Up to 2 cups a day.

Supplements: Fat Cat! It's cheap and it works! Here's 4 pages of testimonials from people who agree. http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=65#reviews I haven't tried anything else because I just haven't needed to.

Hay: Keep it in front of them as much as possible. If ulcers are a concern, consider alfalfa since the calcium in it works as a buffer.


I was just looking at FatCat http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=65&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true#fulldescription

and saw it seemed similar to what I recalled being in SmartHoof and actually when you compare ingredients there is a great deal of overlap, although FatCat has salt and smart hoof has more fat http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=65&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true#fulldescription

Am I missing something?

[TeamBrickman]

Wow-- what an incredible amount of information in a short time. Thank you all so much!

My first order of business, after reading all your suggestions, is worming for tapes. I Powerpac'ed him (do everyone in midDecember as a matter of routine) and just completely missed the tapeworm issue. Thanks for the reminder!

He IS right off the track, so it's entirely possible I'm expecting results too soon. Our guys live in our backyard, so I might be a bit overzealous in expecting positive changes every time I look out my kitchen window. But he's definitely still thin and rough and, for lack of a better way to describe it, he just seems a bit bummed out and even after six weeks, he just doesn't seem like he feels at home, you know?

I'll try a combination of things you all suggested, to see if I can't get him on the right track slowly. He's definitely bottom of the totem pole in the field even with all the hay they can possibly stuff in their faces, so I'll keep him stalled a bit longer during meal times so he can have hay on his own.

I can easily add more oil, and can add alfalfa pellets and up the TC Senior-- he's not a great eater, so I'll have to do these things one at a time, gradually.

A quick follow up question, though-- a few of you have had success with rice bran. My feed store carries the TC Rice Bran, and it's in powder form. How much are you routinely adding to your horse's meal, for those of you who are using powder?

[Simkie]

If he's not a great eater and is right off the track, then it's nearly for sure that he has ulcers. Treating him with Gastrogard or Ranitadine should help him improve.

I've never really had much luck with rice bran. I prefer using oil as a fat source.

[iluvdrummers]

Triple crown grass forage is good for adding weight with no extra energy

[Rescue Pony]

A person at the barn did rice bran....she did 1 cup twice a day for her arabians/saddlebreds who would just not keep weight on.....

One thing I will caution you about is trying everything listed at once. Remember colic! Try adding one thing at a time and do it gradually. I know it is hard to do but Time is all we can give these guys! Especially thoroughbreds....goodness knows that it has taken me 2 years to get my TB who was a 2 when I got him to a 5 now. and there were a lot of set backs too......he had a tendency to get hurt and then make himself so nervous in his stall that he would actually loose weight with no work!

Also I would recommend instead of pumping things into your TB to look at your enviroment.....is he pacing/wood chewing/ or cribbing? Horse can and will loose weight that way. Also if it is cold at all..think about blankets. This is the first winter in 3 winters that I didn't start blanketing in October like normal cause Beau was finally at a good weight. Shivering and trying to maintain body weight will make them loose weight. First winter with Beau I actually had 3 blankets on him at one point and when it got down to -50 with windchill last year everyone had 1-2 blankets on and Beau had 4 layers!:yes:

[cebesue]

I also have a Thin hard keeper OTTB. He is 19. We have had him for 2 months and i am just starting to see a difference in him. He gets 6 pounds of Pennfield Fibergized, 1 pound Ultimate Finish by Buckeye, 1 pound Alfalfa pellets, Flax seed, BOSS, Beet Plup(which he is not fond of) ,4 tb MAG-Ox. I have decided to just be patient, which is hard!!LOL!! Now for my Question. For those of you that feed Apple Cider Vinegar, is this the liquid, powder or pills?

[quicksilverponies]

I would add a probiotic to his feed as well - like FastTrack. That will enable him to better utilize his feed. I also feed Buckeye Ultimate Finish instead of oil as a supplement - a cup in the morning with feed (I use Ultium) and another in the evening with feed for my hard keepers - it works great and makes them very shiny too. Good luck.

[DLee]

I hear you about the "bummed out" part, it sometimes does take some time for them to adjust to a totally different life. Mine always seem very happy (sometimes even relieved) to come into a stall at night, roll in straw, and have a semblence of what they just came from. But pretty soon they relax, learn how to eat horse cookies, and love turnout. Good luck!

[mybelle]

My newly (October) purchased horse turned out to be a hard keeper, so I've been going through the unpleasantness of trying to be patient while he puts on weight. My vet and a trainer friend of mine liked rice bran as an option to put weight on. 1-2 cups a day is what my vet said, but she did say to look at the bag for advice on the correct amount to feed. I do also soak 2 cups of beet pulp and mix it with the rice bran. And I agree about keeping it simple - its so easy to go overboard because we love these guys so much!

[summersjewel]

If you have access to Pennfield feed I would recommend Fibrigized...It is beet pulp based. If he is that awful it may take a whole year. Strongid c will help to make all the difference in the world as well...And you could add Biotin...Do not over do it on additives...It is a money maker. Worm him with Quest Plus or have a fecal count done. Quest plus is the one wormer that will do the most and then Equimax twice a year, especially in Sept....The oil is fine.....to add..This is what I would do....Rice bran is good to... Your diet is fine....It is just going to take time...I have a SSh that took a whole year and this is year 2 and he is just blooming.......

[goeslikestink]

up your hay quota to ab -lib abig horse can eat a bale a day
4flakes for exsample is not enough

good quality ab-lib hay will add weight and worm to a worming programme
dont dialy worm him

hes 4 and still growing and hes got to learn anew disipline dont expect him to know
and also remeber your weight and the weight of your saddle is very different from a jockey and a racing saddle
so you want to work him on long reining so he can get comfy and used to the different weight on his back ie the tack
then bring him into the school and trian as if new to everything becuase it is

race horses are taught to run-- not to school or dressage so be compassionate to his needs