Barn Manager Salary [Archive]

Silence

Jan. 31, 2009, 11:32 PM

I've decided that how much someone is willing to pay for good help is directly proportionate to how dedicated and long lasting said someone wants help to be.

I make $300 a week (so $1200-$1500 a month) plus one stall (I provide grain and shavings) and a small, not very well insulated apartment.

I work 7 days a week, have no vacation (paid or otherwise) or insurance. Now, I only work 5-6 hours a day (I pretty much flat out refuse to work more then 6 hours a day, once everything pressing is done, since I work 7 days a week).

I am responsible for cleaning stalls, re-sanding stalls (all horses are on sand), feeding, scheduling and being here for farrier appointments, keeping all buckets (feed or water) clean, keeping all horses groomed and manes/tails detangled, and all the millions of other things that go with running a boarding barn. I'm also expected to answer the phone whenever my boss calls no matter what time it is. (Seriously, I've been lectured for not answering the phone at 10:30 pm when I was in my bed ASLEEP.) If I'm going to be gone for more then a couple of hours I'm supposed to call boss and tell them this.

I'm burned out and ready to quit horses completly.

So, if you are the one wanting to pay someone to manage your barn, you have to decide how much it's worth to you.

silver2

Feb. 1, 2009, 01:00 AM

Assuming that they are supervising a few stall cleaners and maybe a working student or two and are not responsible for doing the financials then I'd say $35-45K to start for someone DOE and any other perks like flexible hours, vehicle or housing. I live in a fairly expensive area, I'd imagine you'd be competitive offering in the low to mid 30s in many parts of the country for a basic BM position. A higher salary would be appropriate where the manager is supervising a large staff, handling breeding stock or rehabs, has sole oversight of the property, or is doing the bookkeeping too.

I once worked at a barn where I had the opportunity to ride a horse or two and earn commission on sales or to teach lessons. Those are ways to keep someone if you can't afford a competitive salary.

Jsalem

Feb. 1, 2009, 07:51 AM

It isn't a matter of how much an employer is "willing to pay" when you're talking about a commerical barn. I guess if you work for an individual, it's a matter of how much they want to part with. It's how much money is in the budget to pay salaries. You realize, of course, that it is reflected in the boarding rate. Hay, grain, bedding, utilities, rent, repairs, insurance, staff to manage, staff to muck, staff to mow, enough staff to offer days off.

I can't imagine a BM that would work 5 days per week unless it involved simply organization, bookkeeping, ordering and some staff supervision. There would still need to be money in the budget to pay for all feeding, mucking, and eyes-on supervision of the care of the horses. Most BMs are expected to be responsible for handling emergencies and interacting with clients. Horses colic after hours and on holidays and weekends. Clients come to the barn after work and on weekends. They want to see the manager to discuss their horse's needs.

I once had my clients' horses boarded at a place that had such a BM. She had decent business experience, but really had no clue about how a barn should run. She made a nice salary and got free board on a horse. She worked M-F "normal" hours. During our stay there, hay ran out on the weekend, emergencies occurred with no one experienced to deal with them. Very expensive board, but the care was poor. She was more of a "business manager". Needless to say, this "business" went kaput, because they ran out of money.

IslandGirl

Feb. 1, 2009, 08:59 AM

...then I'd say $35-45K to start for someone DOE and any other perks like flexible hours, vehicle or housing...

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

(Sorry...I just couldn't contain myself. Oh how I WISH this was possible!!!!)

Bluey

Feb. 1, 2009, 09:34 AM

We need to remember that we are competing with other business.
You need to pay what someone else would pay them working in any one other kind of office, at least, to get them to stay.

Many stables use slave labor, people that will do anything to work there, for whatever is given to them.
That is how I started working in the horse industry, but eventually most people realize that they have to be able to have some other life, more than 24/7 the stable and horses.

As long as there are slaves around to do it for the glory of being around horses, you can name your price, if you find those people.
If we are honest employers, we will see that all are paid a decent wage and don't let them work into burnout.

Around here, salaries for agricultural labor are set by the larger cattle feedlots.
There are hundreds of them, this area and dry, moderate climate is ideal for that.
Most of those feedlots are part of some larger business and have fair salaries, good health plans, bonuses according to how the cattle under their care perform, pensions, stocks and their dividends in the company for those employees that stay there for so long.
Everyone else tries to set salaries according to those and what they can afford, although few can match the salaries and perks of the bigger business.

I wonder if you could ask some of the better barns in your area and then go by that?

As someone said, the area you are may make a big difference in what salary is fair, for someone living there.

iluvdrummers

Feb. 1, 2009, 11:48 PM

OMG 5 days a week!!! are you hiring??? I would trade good money for 5 day work weeks especially with health insurance as well!!!

Trixie

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:36 AM

It depends on what the job entails and how long and loyal you wish to keep your staff members. It's possible to have a barn manager that works 5 days a week: if said manager is both extremely well organized and has a good, responsible support staff and is available via phone.

A lot of barns seem to think that a barn manager is slave labor - $300 a WEEK? Tell me they're including housing in that, because around here, earning $15,600 per year before taxes wouldn't buy you even a room in someone's house to rent, much less food.

Any job needs to make for a decent quality of life if they want to keep a happy staff. Believe me, there are plenty of jobs out there that do this, and "the pleasure of working with horses" doesn't buy food, healthcare, or pay the bills.

Jsalem

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:14 AM

And those that board their horses need to be willing to pay for the quality of care that they desire.

Silence

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:29 AM

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 2, 2009, 11:31 AM

These threads always pi$$ me off. I am appalled at the wages that continue to be paid in the horse industry. Owning and riding horses is one of the most expensive hobbies around. People that can afford to own their own horse(s) make an average household income exceeding 110K a year I read not too long ago. Yet the people that take care of our horses, teach, etc, get paid, quite literally, food stamp wages to manage a barn!

It’s usually NOT because the barn operates on a shoestring budget but because barn owners exploit the love people have for horses. I’ve seen it too many times and a long time ago was a “victim” my self (this was 15 yrs ago and wages haven’t gone up since then!). You learn to ride at the barn, become a barn rat, ride well, maybe get your own horse, want to help out with the other horses in the barn, get to exercise other peoples horses for free (you think it’s a great deal at the time and so does the BO. He/She charges the customer for having his/her horse worked but does not pass on some of the money to pay for your time) then start to do other duties and eventually you have reached the age where you get paid for your work. But since, at one time, you were doing all this work for free in exchange for free lessons, free boarding (which your parents think is a great deal), exercising other horses, etc, the barn owner knows that any money he/she pays you is to you a bonus. That’s how wages are kept low. And when you finally burn out, there is a whole new generation of girls and guy’s ready to take your spot and also work for next to nothing.

If you think about it, these jobs are really the lowest of the lowest jobs out there on par with being an apple picker... True poverty jobs that require you to work physically hard and long hours usually 6 to 7 day’s per week. No insurance, no retirement, no sick time, no time for your self. It’s cut throat as well. When you realize that you’re being exploited and ask for raises, benefits, etc, there are a slew of other boy’s and girls ready to take over your job for nothing and the BO knows this.

I highly respect those of you that do this for a living. I understand your love for horses and working with them. I've been there (long ago) and done that.

It is a vicious cycle that can only be stopped if everyone involved refuses to work for free. If you don’t, you’ll never make dime. Form a professional association! But I know that's unfortunately never going to happen.

Evalee Hunter

Feb. 2, 2009, 04:49 PM

I don't know if things are quite as bleak as HookedonReefing pictures them, but I can't quite imagine how a barn owner would pay a "good" salary with benefits. The better (more famous) race horse trainers are able to pay a little better than the sport horse barns but the race trainers are charging $85 - $100 a day & losing money even at that (& still can't afford to offer much in the way of benefits - if any at all).

I know how much hay, grain, straw, mortgage interest, insurance & other stuff costs. By the time those are paid, there's nothing left from board income to pay staff.

IslandGirl

Feb. 2, 2009, 06:35 PM

HookedOnReefing: I am a barn owner, and I began to type a thoughtful, informative response to your VERY cynical and ignorant post. Then I decided you're just not worth the time and effort. I can only hope that someday you get to try to run a business as tough as running a barn, keeping those horses entrusted to you well-cared for, keeping the facility in excellent shape, keeping the rings groomed, the fences repaired, the hay loft full, paying the IRS on time, and keeping ALL of the employees and clients (and your spouse) happy. And doing this while still maintaining your OWN sanity and keeping your OWN love for horses alive and well...pretty much for ZERO dollars. Good luck, with your attitude.

Jsalem

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:17 PM

Island Girl, you're my hero....

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:25 PM

Islandgirl, you are VERY wrong to assume that I don't know what it takes to run a business. I still do...

While my post is cynical, it unfortunately is reality for all but the largest barns. It's by no means ignorant. Look at it from the perspective of the employee, then you might understand. You are reading my post while wearing the barn owners hat. But what about the employee who makes 18K gross or less and no benefits?

I understand your perspective, I realy do I've been on both sides of the fence. But don't tell me or say my post is ignorant, cynical yes, but not at all untrue.

onthebit

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:43 PM

And those that board their horses need to be willing to pay for the quality of care that they desire.

I'll second that. I'll also add they need to be willing to pay enough in board to allow barn owner's to pay decent wages.

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:46 PM

If you want to employ monkeys, then you pay peanuts!

If you want good staff to provide a good service and be loyal and dependable then you reward them well.

Mine has a degree in Equine Science and is a BHS AI. And she works a 5 day week but weekends included. It's a very rare treat that there's not weekends involved. She's flexible though and very reliable. If we're very busy she'll work longer and swaps days off when necessary with other staff. The way we work it is that all staff are paid Annualised Hours whereby they get the same amount of money each week no matter whether they works 60 hours or 30 hours. And the hours do vary at different times of the year and with long days in the summer and very short days during the winter months. On average though it's a 40 hour week.

I pay mine the equivalent of just over $37,000. The senior member of staff also gets a cottage and phone and broad band connection funded and then free upkeep for her 2 horses. Also gets all workwear for free and lunches are provided at work. Her competition expenses are all paid for and she gets a % of any winnings.

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 07:57 PM

Trixie

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:04 PM

I didn't think it was "ignorant." I've seen tons of posts on this board where people want to pay their barn staff practically half of what my office pays the receptionists, and they don't make much. One poster offered $20K a year, one poster said, no housing, no health insurance, no car, no riding, full time+++, in Northern Virginia at the top of the real estate market when one couldn't find a studio apartment for less than a thousand a month. When told that was not a liveable wage, they got insulted and said "Well, she could get a roommate!" :rolleyes: Also, the hours are generally deplorable, the job can be dangerous, and most horse people are crazy.

Then people come on here INCENSED because they can't find good help.

Barn owners, yes, we know it sucks. But you have to factor staff into your business plans, or realize you'll pay later compensating for an inadequate or crappy support staff and high turnover. No one wants to take a job with limited hope of advancement, a rough lifestyle, and low pay and STAY THERE.

Of course, adding perks: decent housing (not cramming 6 people into a two-bedroom), healthcare, reasonable time off, riding, or just generally being a sane boss can make up for a lot in regards to salary.

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:10 PM

HookedOnReefing - Come back and post when you spend all your hard earned money to own and operate your own place. You'll be singing a different tune, I guarantee it! I've been on both sides (a barn rat when I was young and now a barn owner) of the fence and believe you me, in this business it is way easier to earn a paycheck then to be a B/O and sign one. It is virtually impossible to pass on all the costs a B/O incurs to boarders. No one would pay what it really costs to put their horse in your barn. In that case you're a busy fool who is just subsidising folks luxury lifestyle choice.

If you are going to run a business and be professional you have to do a business plan and work out a cash flow forecast and ensure that pricing policy enables you to provide good service and pay competent staff. You have to work out your potential capital investment and calculate what the market can sustain to enable you to have a decent payback period on the capital employed.

I don't call my staff barn rats either though!

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:13 PM

[QUOTE=Trixie;3853862]I didn't think it was "ignorant." I've seen tons of posts on this board where people want to pay their barn staff practically half of what my office pays the receptionists, and they don't make much. One poster offered $20K a year, one poster said, no housing, no health insurance, no car, no riding, full time+++, in [I]Nor.......

So how much to you charge a month for Board to make all this pay for itself? I have a 30 stall, indoor, outdoor, trails, turnouts, very high end facility with heated grooming hall and wash racks, clean heated bathrooms, viewing room, etc. People love all the amenities but would never really pay what it costs to run the place let alone adding on a top salaried barn manager. Of course, having said all that, Bend, Oregon isn't quite on the beaten track. So, I am my own Barn Manager and Trainer and I have two working students.

www.europferde.com

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:19 PM

So how much to you charge a month for Board to make all this pay for itself? I know you didn't ask me but I'm expressing strong views that you don't run a business to be a busy fool and you reward well to get good staff.

I charge about $850 at current exchange rates.

Of course, having said all that, Bend, Oregon isn't quite on the beaten track. It's not but I've been there. Several times! VERY nice place!

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:25 PM

I am nobody's fool. Trust me. I do run my business very professionally and have a business plan. I provide the very best service both in care and training and am very proud of my reputation and success with my business. I have more than competent staff. Its just not as easy as one would think. Boarding horses is not that lucrative if you regard it strictly from revenues from boarding. Profit margins are very slim and its not that easy to cover a higher end salary when it comes to adding on a barn manager. Especially in the market where I live. The profits margins in a boarding operation vary widely depending on where you are located and what the market is willing to bear.

The "barn rat" reference is what I called myself as a young kid with no money trying to earn a ride on a horse - never in reference to any help that works for me.

www.europferde.com

In that case you're a busy fool who is just subsidising folks luxury lifestyle choice.

If you are going to run a business and be professional you have to do a business plan and work out a cash flow forecast and ensure that pricing policy enables you to provide good service and pay competent staff.

I don't call my staff barn rats either though!

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:30 PM

I know you didn't ask me but I'm expressing strong views that you don't run a business to be a busy fool and you reward well to get good staff.

I charge £125 per week. That's $180 at current exchange rates. Or $780 per month.

It's not but I've been there. Several times! VERY nice place!

Well, since you've been here you must know that no one in Bend charges $780.00 per month. I am at the top of the market at $650. Costs are very high here to operate with a lot of restrictions in zoning (ie housing on property, etc). Unless we are full all the time with partial or full training horses; its tough to have enough margin to cover a full fledged barn manager.

www.europferde.com

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:31 PM

I am nobody's fool. Trust me. I do run my business very professionally and have a business plan. I provide the very best service both in care and training and am very proud of my reputation and success with my business. Looks a very nice place too.

If you're doing what you say then your business plan needs reworking. You can't have large capital investment and no effective return on the capital employed. You can't charge less than it costs. You can't run with untrained staff and you can't pay staff a pittance.

If you do you run the risk of providing poor service, attracting the wrong market, losing staff and not being able to sustain your business plan.

You'll go bust.

Having had a look at your web site, I've a strong feeling I've driven by and talked to someone who was having English Riding lessons at your place.

Well, since you've been here you must know that no one in Bend charges $780.00 per month. No I wasn't there doing market research on barn prices ;). It was very enjoyable holidays with some dear friends not too far from you.

I am at the top of the market at $650. Costs are very high here to operate with a lot of restrictions in zoning (ie housing on property, etc). You can't run a business and not recover overheads and pay staff and make a profit. If you continue to do that, then it's called Bankrupt!

It may well be that this is a secondary source of income and you have something else to write it off against or even get tax benefit if it's running at a loss but you can't charge people less than it costs.

Why would anyone want to do that? You'd be better off just standing in the street and giving your money away to everyone that comes by or else going to the casino and betting all away on roulette.

Those who run such because it's their hobby or interest and want to simply recover their own overheads are not professional businesses

We also have very severe restrictions in the UK. MUCH stricter than yours in terms of things like Planning Legislation. Furthermore every riding centre here has to be inspected and licenced. A privilege that I pay for each and every year. Part of the licence ensures I don't get the chance to employ staff that are untrained. I have to evidence competence and qualification for each and every person that works here.

Unless we are full all the time with partial or full training horses; its tough to have enough margin to cover a full fledged barn manager. Running a business can indeed by tough but to be brutally honest anyone not covering overheads and making profit won't be running it long.

sketcher

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:33 PM

HookedOnReefing - Come back and post when you spend all your hard earned money to own and operate your own place. You'll be singing a different tune, I guarantee it! I've been on both sides (a barn rat when I was young and now a barn owner) of the fence and believe you me, in this business it is way easier to earn a paycheck then to be a B/O and sign one. It is virtually impossible to pass on all the costs a B/O incurs to boarders. No one would pay what it really costs to put their horse in your barn.

Wow. I know what you're like to work for. So, your barn workers should shoulder some of the expense with you? Give me a break.

I'm sure when you sell your very nice farm you will share in any increase in property value with the loyal employees who should help you shoulder your financial burdens just for the love of it.

Anyone who thinks they can make any type of profit running a boarding operation alone needs to have their head examined. So, should someone be willing to work on the cheap because that segment of your business isn't so profitable?

Trixie

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:37 PM

It'd be foolish to offer ammenities that don't bring in any sort of return. Likewise, most businesses start out pretty small and expand, it's rare for a company to begin with several thousand employees or forty horses. Horses are NOT the kind of business that is automatically profitable, therefore, the management needs to come up with an actual business plan that is viable, ie, not offering services that don't pay for themselves, or subsidizing someone else's lifestyle when hay prices go up, or walking into the business with a mortgage that won't pay for itself.

You can't have it both ways - it's the job of a business to make a profit. If it's your hobby, or your labor of love, that's nice, but if you want to actually be a professonal and run a business, you need to factor in the cost of staff, one way or another, or prepare to do the work yourself. Likewise, a great number of people in the industry have a great deal of HORSE sense but less business or people savvy.

Europferd, your farm looks lovely. What are real estate prices and salaries like in Bend, Oregon? That's certainly something to consider when you're considering where to locate your business: considering what you'll bring in v. what your mortgage is. I'd certainly be overmortgaged buying a farm in Northern Virginia, but I can afford one where my sister lives in North Carolina just fine. You have to consider your demographic, as well: that part of NC doesn't bring in the same board rates that my part of VA does. Figure it into the business plan.

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:43 PM

Wow. I know what you're like to work for. So, your barn workers should shoulder some of the expense with you? Give me a break.

I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote. My staff, are really well paid and love being here. They each have a horse in the barn; don't pay board and get as much help with their riding as I can give them. They are treated with respect and I am thankful to have them on board with me. They are great and my clients love them.

I just meant that the boarding business is not a lucrative business all over the country. Markets vary. You can only charge so much according to what the local market will bare (sp) and build upon that slowly in the meantime; costs are rising.

www.europferde.com

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:55 PM

If costs are rising and the market can't sustain the cost, then that's called going out of business...... slowly and painfully.... drifting towards bankruptcy

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 08:55 PM

Looks a very nice place too.

If you're doing what you say then your business plan needs reworking. You can't have large capital investment and no effective return on the capital employed. You can't charge less than it costs.

If you do you'll go bust.

Having had a look at your web site, I've a strong feeling I've driven by and talked to someone who was having English Riding lessons at your place.

No I wasn't there doing market research on barn prices ;). It was very enjoyable holidays with some dear friends not too far from you.

You can't run a business and not recover overheads and pay staff and make a profit. If you continue to do that, then it's called Bankrupt!

It may well be that this is a secondary source of income and you have something else to write it off against or even get tax benefit if it's running at a loss but you can't charge people less than it costs.

Why would anyone want to do that? You'd be better off just standing in the street and giving your money away to everyone that comes by or else going to the casino and betting all away on roulette.

We also have very severe restrictions in the UK. MUCH stricter than yours in terms of things like Planning Legislation. Furthermore every riding centre here has to be inspected and licenced. A privilege that I pay for each and every year. Part of the licence ensures I don't get the chance to employ staff that are untrained. I have to evidence competence and qualification for each and every person that works here.

Running a business can indeed by tough but to be brutally honest anyone not covering overheads and making profit won't be running it long.

I never said I was operating at a loss. I just said its not at easy as one would think. My first reply was to a very negative, terse post with reference to Barn Owners being cheap and taking advantage of their employees (which I supposed I took offense to). Maybe I should never have answered that one.

Next time you are in Bend, drop by and visit!

www.europferde.com

Thomas_1

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:01 PM

I never said I was operating at a loss. You didn't but you suggested that profit margins were very slim and so much so that it was not always possible to pay for good staff. You also said your costs were rising.

My first reply was to a very negative, terse post with reference to Barn Owners being cheap and taking advantage of their employees (which I supposed I took offense to). Maybe I should never have answered that one. It is indeed difficult running a business and particularly an equestrian business. I often get calls that go along the lines of "How much is ........" and when I reply get the response "oh, so and so is £ less" and I just say well go there then - if I'm in a bad mood and if I can be bothered and it sounds like ignorance that can be cured by education, then I explain why my service is different.

I also usually slip in to the conversation that perhaps they might want to check if they're licenced ;)

Next time you are in Bend, drop by and visit! Thanks and will do. I'm hoping to visit that way in September. The young lady I spoke to worked at a horse supplies and feed store. I'm sure it must have been your place she was going to because she said there weren't so many teaching English riding.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:27 PM

FWIW, I currently pay more for board than I do rent in a very nice apartment in a nice suburb of Baltimore. Not after utility bills are included of course, but I bet if I figured out the comparison between farrier bills, vet bills, insurance premiums, etc., the two would rival each other pretty damn closely.

I never thought this was a little crazy until my SO moved here from Berlin, Germany and pointed that out to me. He was shocked that for a 12x12 stall that's cleaned once per day, feed tossed twice per day, turnout (individual, but with no booting or blanketing without paying extra $$$) and use of moderately maintained facilities for the region in which we live, we pay almost as much as we do to live in our spacious apartment.

The thing that gets me is this- I recently discussed a few positions offered in the area working with the horses in some capacity. These positions ranged from mucking to, to excercising sale horses, to teaching intermediate level students. I couldn't justify accepting any of them.

If it was basic barn work, the employer was offering $7-10 per hour. And the $10 per hour was at a small barn with 10 stalls, so the amount of hours it would take to run through the routine would leave me with gas money and lunch at a mediocre sandwich shop. On the other hand, the $7/hour was 35 stalls, plus grooming of 10-15 sale horses, 6 days per week.

Then there were the riding/teaching positions. While I don't consider myself to be God's gift to horses, I am a competent rider seeking to break into the professional ranks before I decide it's too late. While I never won any national medals, I certainly enjoyed modest succcess showing a very green horse in the locally rated divisions as a junior. I have a very solid foundation, can handle a diverse pool of rides, and am capable of performing pretty much any task required of an assistant, whether it be body-clipping, braiding, administering meds, monitoring a horse on stall rest, etc. I have great references from several well-respected trainers who currently enjoy their own successes. And honestly? I was insulted by the haste with which every potential employer from god knows what background was willing to brush all of that off and tell me "well, we'll teach you, so don't worry about the riding part or the grooming parts".

Seriously? I stopped looking. It wasn't the money. It was the amount of people out there whose names I'd never even heard that assumed I was going to be some charity case that wants to spend my day with the horses. I've invested so much time and SO MUCH MONEY to bring myself to a point at which I feel I could confidently perform the duties of an entry level professional. I have a resume, references, videos. Everything in line. And every single employer with whom I spoke made me feel as if I were inquiring about walk-trot lessons.

I know this has been extremely long-winded. But there are probably a lot of people out there like me who are looking for a decent, enjoyable position. We have to start somewhere. But please *don't* belittle us and assume we've no idea what we're doing. I think most of the people with whom I spoke regarding employment would've been suprised at my ability to contribute to the overall operation.

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:29 PM

You didn't but you suggested that profit margins were very slim and so much so that it was not always possible to pay for good staff. You also said your costs were rising.

It is indeed difficult running a business and particularly an equestrian business. I often get calls that go along the lines of "How much is ........" and when I reply get the response "oh, so and so is £ less" and I just say well go there then - if I'm in a bad mood and if I can be bothered and it sounds like ignorance that can be cured by education, then I explain why my service is different.

I also usually slip in to the conversation that perhaps they might want to check if they're licenced ;)

Thanks and will do. I'm hoping to visit that way in September. The young lady I spoke to worked at a horse supplies and feed store. I'm sure it must have been your place she was going to because she said there weren't so many teaching English riding.

Yes, the profit margins are slimmer in the boarding part of the operation, but my training fees and operation are not affected. I treat that separately. Costs are rising and I've increased my board along with it. Salaries have not diminished but for the present I've chosen to manage the barn myself to avoid the extra overhead. With this recession, one needs to be careful. People are so desperate around here they are turning their horses loose out in the wild.

I too have often had to explain why I charge what I do and if they don't want to pay that then so be it. I refuse to pay for someone else's horse addiction. Most B/O/trainers here charge less for board and supplement the loss on the boarding operation with their training fees. Its been like that for years. Now that is what I call nuts. THey are really having a tough go of it.

Hope to see you in September!

www.europferde.com

sketcher

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:31 PM

I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote. My staff, are really well paid and love being here. They each have a horse in the barn; don't pay board and get as much help with their riding as I can give them. They are treated with respect and I am thankful to have them on board with me. They are great and my clients love them.

I just meant that the boarding business is not a lucrative business all over the country. Markets vary. You can only charge so much according to what the local market will bare (sp) and build upon that slowly in the meantime; costs are rising.

www.europferde.com

I'm sorry for being snarky. I'm very jaded on this subject.

I just remember the point at which I woke up - after 15 years of taking care of other people's beautiful farms while they cried poverty. And I.mean.beautiful.farms. And now as a property owner myself I understand the pressure to pay the bills and how stressful it is but I also work very hard to remember what it was like to literally not have a pot to piss in and working like a dog, always showing up, always reliable, always good in an emergency and responsible enough at a pretty young age for people to leave me with their very expensive breeding stock while they flitted around buying more breeding stock or whatever else had their fancy. And many of those people entitled, rude and demanding. Leaves a bitter taste, you know?

europferde

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:43 PM

I'm sorry for being snarky. I'm very jaded on this subject.

I just remember the point at which I woke up - after 15 years of taking care of other people's beautiful farms while they cried poverty. And I.mean.beautiful.farms. And now as a property owner myself I understand the pressure to pay the bills and how stressful it is but I also work very hard to remember what it was like to literally not have a pot to piss in and working like a dog, always showing up, always reliable, always good in an emergency and responsible enough at a pretty young age for people to leave me with their very expensive breeding stock while they flitted around buying more breeding stock or whatever else had their fancy. And many of those people entitled, rude and demanding. Leaves a bitter taste, you know?

Well I understand you all too well. I didn't always have what I have now. I worked hard as a kid just to be able to ride a school horse in a lesson. Didn't have much of a pot to piss in either. I still work hard now. I never expect anyone who works for me to do something I'm not capable of doing myself. I too have seen the entitled, rude and demanding. I just vowed never to be like that. Wasn't brought up that way.

Bluehorsesjp

Feb. 2, 2009, 09:46 PM

Silence

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:14 PM

As someone who works in a barn...I'd be pretty happy with making around $20,000 a year plus housing and a stall, only having to work 6 days a week and having certain time at which I am UNAVAILABLE to the barn owners every whim and wish (unless its an absolute emergency, horse down, etc).

That would make me pretty darn happy.

Trixie

Feb. 2, 2009, 10:56 PM

Silence, sadly, the figure I quoted of $20K per year did not include housing or a stall. $20K + housing is liveable, your take home after taxes would be around $1400 or so a month. Not extravagant, but liveable.

FrenchFry, I've seen that attitude a lot in this business: You will have the priviledge of working with horses, therefore, folks seem to believe that they have a lot more leeway in regards to how they treat their staff. Unfortunately, this works both ways: you can't have it be a business in one regard and then treat folks who work for you as if they aren't employees. They're not slaves, and they're not there because they enjoy shoveling manure. They're there to do a job, and if they're full time, they need to be paid a living wage.

You sound like an entry level employee in many businesses: reasonably educated and capable of contributing to the business, albeit not with the years of experience that makes someone "senior staff." It's inexcusable in any business to be disrespectful to a junior member of any team.

I know it's hard for a barn manager to make money in the horse world. It's not a lucrative business, but it is still a business. I'm sure that someone could argue that for some folks, my industry (defense contractor) is a, for some folks, a "labor of love." But I'm still there in the morning because I need to afford to eat.

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 2, 2009, 11:07 PM

I never posted that operating a barn is easy or lucrative. I also didn't attack anyone in particular. What I did say is that I have seen and continue to see many BO's taking advantage of the love of horses young people have and exploiting that to their own advantage under the disguise that they can't afford to pay much. The BO who doesn’t fall in that category doesn’t need to feel attacked. The BO's that do run their businesses that way know who they are.

Paying a barn employee 20K a year or less before taxes and requiring them to be at work for 8 to 10 hrs a day 6 to 7 day's per week translates to an hourly wage well below the minimum hourly wage for my state.

It's especially appalling when you consider that these employees are usually paid as an independent contractor and not as an employee. Yet many BO's control these "independent contractors" as if they were employees by controlling or having the right to control what the worker does and how he/she does his job, controlling things like how the worker is paid or expenses are reimbursed which is illegal under IRS tax laws if said worker is an independent contractor.

If you run your barn on a shoestring budget, and that's why you can't pay employees a fair wage, you need to increase rates. If you are unable to increase rates because your clients cannot afford higher rates, I'm sorry to say, you don't need to be in business. A good market analysis as part of a comprehensive business plan will tell you that.

YankeeLawyer

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:10 AM

FrenchFrytheEqHorse

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:31 AM

FrenchFry, I've seen that attitude a lot in this business: You will have the priviledge of working with horses, therefore, folks seem to believe that they have a lot more leeway in regards to how they treat their staff. Unfortunately, this works both ways: you can't have it be a business in one regard and then treat folks who work for you as if they aren't employees. They're not slaves, and they're not there because they enjoy shoveling manure. They're there to do a job, and if they're full time, they need to be paid a living wage.

You sound like an entry level employee in many businesses: reasonably educated and capable of contributing to the business, albeit not with the years of experience that makes someone "senior staff." It's inexcusable in any business to be disrespectful to a junior member of any team.

Exactly. I was just shocked at the number of "trainers" who treated me like I'd never seen a horse canter before without having ever seen me ride or interact with a horse. And sadly, it seems as if this attitude is more prevalent amongst the "local" trainers of whom I've not heard (not a dig at local trainers, just suprised they felt they could afford to act this way considering the amount of pay/compensation they were offering). At some points, discussing my background in riding was almost like being accused of lying. And I'm sorry, but if I'm going to consider taking on a working student position, it'd damn well better be in a barn where I can actually learn A LOT about horse care/riding. Not "muck my paddocks and I'll let you hop on one of the grade horses we have for sale".

Maybe I sound really negative. And perhaps it's because I realize that my family has spent more money on horses, riding and showing than twice what my college education is costing. We've spent SO MUCH, and I'd love to be given the chance to see if I could work in this industry in the long-term.

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:40 AM

Well, then take out 200K + in educational loans and get a professional degree, work 100+ hours a week (that's 7 days a week) and buy your own farm.

I did get the loan and the professional degree and I do own my own farm.

Lambie Boat

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:37 AM

Thomas_1

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:00 AM

Yes, the profit margins are slimmer in the boarding part of the operation, but my training fees and operation are not affected. I treat that separately. That's irrational! Surely if you're running an equestrian business then the business plan includes the whole of the operation and takes into consideration all the facilities required. Surely you're not running each element as a separate trading entity and concern. It would be irrational. I'm presuming the facilities and equipment you have for training horses are also used by the boarders. Likewise with things like your public liability insurance. Aside from the fact you are probably getting training work from the boarders?

With regard to my business interest, then there's a lot of elements. The Equestrian bit trades as a separate business from the agricultural farm which is pretty much distinct. But I do teach riding and driving. Train horses. Compete point to pointers. Build carriages and do carriage hire. Sell tack. I also rent holiday cottages and other property. One linked to the equestrian centre. The others totally separate geographically and so they are obviously distinct and separate. However when it comes to the equestrian bit which is very mixed/broad, each aspect has interdependency and I'm clear about what each brings to the other. If one bit was totally non-viable and lended nothing to the other part, then it would be mad to retain it. I'd argue though that the boarding business is pulling in the punters for the training operation. But a proper business plan would consider whether diversification was viable and beneficial. When talking about how well or poor things are in relation to paying staff you have to consider the sum of the parts. To do anything else is misrepresentation. For sure that would be the view of the tax man ;)

Costs are rising and I've increased my board along with it. Salaries have not diminished but for the present I've chosen to manage the barn myself to avoid the extra overhead. yes the current economic climate is making things more difficult. I also have lost some custom particularly when it comes to riding lessons. At this stage I'm not sure if it's down to that totally or because of the winter weather. I don't have an indoor arena. No cost justification in the business plan!

People are so desperate around here they are turning their horses loose out in the wild. And so??? That is what I meant by being a busy fool. If someone can't afford to pay what the cost should be and in consideration of all the overheads and the need to make a profit to have a viable and sustainable income for you and your staff, then IMO that is being a busy fool.

If I genuinely thought I had customers I might lose and might just abandon their horses out, then I'd be seeking to get rid of them now. NOT the sort I want to be associated with ..... EVER! For sure it's not my job to subsidise them because I fear what they might do with their horse.

Hope to see you in September! Yep. Me too.

Thomas_1

Feb. 3, 2009, 05:03 AM

Thomas_1 I want to come work for you:) I currently have a vacancy for a full time groom. Not the barn manager though!

Thomas_1

Feb. 3, 2009, 06:27 AM

Well, then take out 200K + in educational loans and get a professional degree, work 100+ hours a week (that's 7 days a week) and buy your own farm. I think that response is odd considering HookedOnReefing's postings in full.

She's merely arguing the case for having a robust business plan and adequately rewarding staff to motivate them and ultimately to provide good support and service.

Trixie

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:10 AM

so in Illinois there are younger kids ready to take your place if you start demanding more money? Have Latinos not gotten that far yet? See how upset white people are working for $20,000, calling it slave wages? When others are happy to get it.

p.s. in Oregon, where unemployment is at 9% and it is true, people are turning their horses out in strange pastures at night, lots of people are working jobs paying $8 to $10 an hour, before taxes, and happy to have it right now. That is the new reality.

Why are you assuming it's just "white people" complaining? I'd say anyone who can do the job and works 40, 50, more hours per week deserves an adequate living wage. Or are you suggesting we hire Latinos and pay them less than a living wage because they should be "happy to get it"?

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:38 AM

I think the term "living wage" is the kicker. What does that mean? Most Americans are no longer raised to believe that they need a roof over their head, healthy food, good working conditions. We've lost that rural, agricultural mindset that "work" means doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done. The animals need to be fed every day. They get sick. The hay has to be cut according to the weather. Americans now "require" a Monday through Friday, 8 to 5 work week with benefits. Barn owners are more likely to find foreigners that have the "rural" mindset. That's just the reality.

And I just did the math for my own farm. My board is currently 825 per month. There is no wiggle room. We struggle every month to have enough money to get to the end of the month without sacrificing our quality of care. Unexpected expenses (tractor repair, busted pipes) eat into our tight budget. I pay our help what I consider a fair wage and treat them with respect. In order to raise their pay 5 dollars an hour and offer health insurance, I would need to raise my board by 200 per month.

Oh, and I do what lots of farms do. I am my own Barn Manager. My compensation for that job is a stall that I don't pay board on. I am at the farm every day that I'm not at a show, weekends and holidays included. I sleep with the cell phone beside my bed. So basically, I'm paid 825 a month for being the Manager. But it's worth it to me because I require lessons or training to board at my farm. Pay me what it's really worth and go ahead and add that to the board rate.

I think that's the deal with any BM position. There's not enough money in the budget to pay what that job is worth. So you need to be able to teach or ride. That's where you make your living. These folks that think you can get paid a "living wage" to manage a barn 40 hours per week with benefits are dreaming.

Trixie

Feb. 3, 2009, 09:56 AM

Most Americans are no longer raised to believe that they need a roof over their head, healthy food, good working conditions.

When I refer to a "living wage" I mean a wage that provides just those very things: covers the COST OF LIVING. I'm not saying you need to provide your farm manager a wage that provides them every luxury, but it does need to be enough to afford reasonable housing in your area, food, car/gasoline, doctor visits (especially if you aren't providing healthcare), and maybe a small amount in savings every month. The barn owner needs to be realistic about what these things cost. I live in area where a "rustic" studio apartment above a storage shed runs you $800 a month, utilities not included.

You need to provide a situation that is sustainably liveable, or accept the fact that you will have high turnover and an inability to maintain a reliable staff.

Lets look over some ads:

Barn in MD, housing provided (one bedroom in shared house), 6 days/week work week, 9 hours a day. For this, you’re paid, $13,520 per year, or, $260/week, or $4.81 per hour. Health care allowance after a year, it features board for your horse at $175 a month. It features CASH PAY so you don’t have to pay taxes (stated in the ad), the position is fairly general: farm work, mucking, and caring for the owner’s dog, fully manage the barn, single person only. You can be an "assistant barn manager" for $200 a week, or $3.70 an hour.

Live in barn manager/instructor, making minimum wage, plus a “percentage of lessons” - it’s unclear as to what percent. It’s expected that you are responsible for daily chores, including all feeding and grooming, exercising horses, daily upkeep, and teaching.

$250 a week to be a full time, full care groom. Live in. $13,000 per year, around $11,700 after taxes.

A non-live in position doing “barn manager work” 5-6 days a week, for 3-4 hours a day. They do not plan to pay you, but you can board one horse.

Another non paying position where you’re expected to “cover for their employees” and turn out and do barn work. It’s suggested that most people don’t take this type of opportunity because they’re worth paying. You, however, are not.

Please, tell me why employees should stay in the horse business.

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:12 AM

And I just did the math for my own farm. My board is currently 825 per month. There is no wiggle room. We struggle every month to have enough money to get to the end of the month without sacrificing our quality of care. Unexpected expenses (tractor repair, busted pipes) eat into our tight budget.

That means the business is over-extended and/or overhead is too high. In your case I'd guess that the cost of the realestate is too high to sustain the barn business. What made you decide to go in to business when your business plan indicated that no profit could be made?

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:23 AM

Oh, I make a fine living- just not from boarding.

Jealoushe

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:44 AM

IslandGirl

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:31 AM

No, HookedOnReefing, you didn't attack anyone in particular. You attacked ALL barn owners except (and I quote you) "all but the largest barns," and accused them (us) of "exploiting [the love of horses young people have] to their own advantage under the disguise that they can't afford to pay much."

My barn is by no means "large;" I have 15 stalls. I have a full-time barn manager (who, by the way, is NOT paid as an independent contractor—add several thousand MORE dollars a year in payroll and worker's compensation expenses). I have her here so that someone competent, reliable, and trustworthy is here to take care of the horses when I'm on the road at horse shows. She receives a fair compensation package, including among other things a luxury two-bedroom apartment, broadband access, and satellite TV which, when added up, is substantially more than "poverty" level. Her salary, though, by your standards, would probably be considered "slave wages" yet she doesn't feel "exploited." She does this by choice, and because she loves the horses. She made a conscious decision several years ago to make a career change in this direction.

And while I did read your post as a barn owner, I also make a concerted effort to look at my barn manager's job from HER point of view. In fact, I just spent several thousand dollars on equipment to make her job easier, and often ask her if she's overloaded. I try to anticipate changes in her workload, and make appropriate adjustments by bringing in additional help when necessary.

I also have several young ladies that function as pseudo-working students. I don't pay them, but in exchange for helping me, they get the opportunity to ride nice horses that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. And my horses get exercised. Is that taking advantage of them, or providing them an opportunity?

"Shoestring budgets" are the reality in the horse world for most people, barn owners and horse owners alike. Just look at all of the people giving away their horse(s) because they no longer can afford them. I, for one, don't do this for the money, 'cause there isn't any in it. I do it because I love the horses, I love being able to provide a great facility for my boarders, I love having people to ride with, I love helping the kids experience something they otherwise wouldn't, and I love to compete. I'm happy if I break even every month, and try to sock away any extra dollars to cover those inevitable months where break even just doesn't happen.

I do have a business plan and I could turn a profit every month if I didn't have a barn manager. But then my level of service and care wouldn't be what it is now, and I wouldn't have the time to tend to the facility the way I want it to be tended. There are trade offs, and I've consciously made the necessary decisions.

I stand by my position that your post was ignorant. I didn't assume that you don't know how to run a business, but you'd have a very hard time convincing me that you know how to run a boarding/training/show barn. It's apparent that you've never been in the trenches, so to speak, particularly if you believe that "people that can afford to own their own horse(s) make an average household income exceeding 110K a year." While I agree that many do (and perhaps in your neck of the woods that's the case), MOST definitely do not. Statistics can be slanted in any direction, and you shouldn't believe everything the media writes. You should know that after your $200K education.

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:34 AM

Trixie,

You are absolutely right. I'm glad you pulled up some of these ads (and there are MANY), I should've done that in the first place... It illustrates exactly what's wrong in this business, not all the time everytime. Not all barns are created equal.

What I don't understand is that there are BO's replying to this thread, fuming, and saying in many words that this is perfectly acceptable/justified. I also don't understand that they justify these wages with stating that the boarding part of the operation is not very profitable and in the same sentence say they're making a fine living just not from boarding... That means other parts of the business are profitable so why not increase the wages?

IslandGirl, good for you. I'm glad to hear that you do provide you BM with a living wage in your opinion. In the case of your BM, and I know that you can not look in her wallet, will she be able to save for retirement and cover the cost of medical care she may need in the future? Or does she in essence have to work for the rest of her life? In other words, will she be able to live out her golden years in dignity?

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 11:54 AM

Hooked on Reefing: I too am offended by your posts. Why do you assume to judge that my business is "overextended" and that I am basically a poor businesswoman? I think I'm a very good business woman to make a living in this tough business. I provide a wonderful service to my clients and wonderful working conditions for the folks that CHOOSE to be in this industry. I do not pay slave wages. I am one of many farm business owners that do not have money in the budget to pay a 40 hour/5 day per week "Barn Manager". It sure would make my life easier, but I don't think my "market" would support the increased board price.

Like most, my boarding operation is a break-even venture. At that, it's very expensive for my clients to keep a horse here. That's the price for having wonderful amenities and care in this area. As far as what board costs, I have the attitude that "it is what it is." I've even published a P & L for the boarding operation for my clients to see where the costs are. I split out my clients' bills between Boarding and Training. I have no intention of diverting ANY of my training/teaching income into the boarding operation to pay for feed/hay/wages. That is what I live on.

Do you read any of the threads from horse owners complaining about the costs of boarding? It isn't so simple as "charge what you need to charge!" You have to strike a balance between what you need to charge and what folks are willing to pay. There IS NOT enough money to pay for quality feed and hay, upkeep to the property, professional, experienced care ( with benefits! and retirement!) and labor- feeding, turnout, mucking (with benefits! and retirement!). Get Real!

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:10 PM

Jsalem sorry to have offended you or others. This is obviously a charged subject with emotions involved. You and some others may very well take care of your employees. But you can not deny that this industry has it's reputation...

I just looked at a few more jobs in the equine industry. A FT farm hand job in NY paying $250/wk no housing, a FT assistant manager in Randallstown MD pay's $200/wk before taxes, a FT farm manager job in Barboursville VA $350/wk + housing, a FT ranch-hand job in West Baden Springs IN $100/wk + housing and I can go on and on and on. This is not the exception rather the rule although there are cetrainly exception such as a a Head Trainer job in Ballston Lake NY that pay's a salary between $45K-$65K/yr and a Groom position in Zionsville Pa $25K-$30K + housing.

Let me give you an exemple. Our business as a whole is profitable but there some parts of the business that are not, such as in house transportation. Does that mean we pay our professional truckdrivers next to nothing because that part is not paying for it self well? Off-course not. You see my point?

IslandGirl

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:16 PM

With due respect, ensuring that my BM can "live out her golden years in dignity" is not my responsibility. While I've looked into providing a retirement plan, it's just not feasible at this time. Regardless, what she does with the money I pay her is her business, not mine.

When I was working in the "real world," my employers didn't ensure that I would live out my golden years in dignity, and I'm not aware of many, if any, companies that make that their concern. In fact, I've had companies for which I worked completely dissolve their retirement plan because of the associated administration costs.

[And, BTW, "BOs" as you've used it is not possessive and should not have an apostrophe. ;) Just a pet peeve of mine.]

Jsalem, I think I love you. :)

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:44 PM

Minimum Wage in Ga is $5.15 an hour. I pay double that to my muckers. How does that make me the bad guy?

And I agree with IslandGirl. Their retirement is not my responsibility.

A "living wage" is a wage that someone can "live" on. Not retire on. Not move to the Bahamas on. Many barn workers are unskilled, uneducated or part-time workers. There's nothing wrong with that. Back when American kids had part-time, afterschool jobs, they worked in barns. Do you think barn workers need to form a union?

YankeeLawyer

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:50 PM

IslandGirl, good for you. I'm glad to hear that you do provide you BM with a living wage in your opinion. In the case of your BM, and I know that you can not look in her wallet, will she be able to save for retirement and cover the cost of medical care she may need in the future? Or does she in essence have to work for the rest of her life? In other words, will she be able to live out her golden years in dignity?

Most of the people who work for me are in their early twenties, just starting out; they stay a few years with me and then go on to something much better which is consistent with their personal career goals. I think the compensation structure on my farm is similar to Islandgirl's, and the BM position is P/T and only involves the care of 6 horses, no boarders. I tend to be a generous person and reward people who do a good job. I think it is a very good deal, and clearly other people do as well as I recently had an opening and received over 100 applications (most from very strong candidates) in response to a single ad on an equestrian website.

Everyone makes choices. I doubt I will ever retire for various reasons. I do not think it is my responsibility to finance the retirement and cost of medical care for the "golden years" of every person who graces my farm. If benefits and a retirement package are priorities among 20 year olds, perhaps choosing a position other than groom or barn manager would be more prudent.

HookedOnReefing

Feb. 3, 2009, 12:58 PM

Jsalem, I’d have to reread my posts to see if I called you the bad guy, I don’t think I did. If you pay your employees fairly like you say you do, then don’t feel offended. You know as well as I do that there are plenty BO that don’t. The job adds that Trixie as well as I quoted show that there are quite a few BO that do pay horrible wages.

I also agree with your definition of a living wage. That it is a wage that someone can “live” on, not necessarily retire on. I was just curious if you could.

Thomas_1

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:04 PM

What I don't understand is that there are BO's replying to this thread, fuming, and saying in many words that this is perfectly acceptable/justified. Don't go lumping them all together.

I'm posting STRONGLY and FREQUENTLY exactly the opposite!

Trixie

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:08 PM

Are we talking about barn workers or barn managers here?

For someone to muck, Jsalem, your $10.30 an hour or so is a decent wage for labor in that skill set: i.e., it isn't skilled labor. If we're talking about someone who does the all the books, handles appointments/overseeing veterinary care/scheduling + deliveries/other management issues, that does involve some level of skill.

I don't think it's the job of the barn owner to subsidize the retirement of their employees, but I do think it's something they need to consider if the industry wants to retain long term employees. If those who employ within the industry are fine with replacing their employees every few years as they move on, fine. It is what it is. I do think healthcare and worker’s comp are an issue, though, because if you get hurt working with horses – which is not a matter of IF, it’s a matter of WHEN – you can be SOL right quick. If you don’t pay healthcare for your employees and you don’t pay them enough to see a doctor when they break an arm on your farm, they’re in big trouble.

My only real problem is those barn managers that wind up working 70 hours a week for what amounts to $4 an hour, and then get treated as though they're lucky to have it: "but you get to work with HORSES."

Thomas_1

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:20 PM

Got to say that I was quite shocked at the following posting. IMO it sounded like some old fashioned feudal landowner or industrial revolution exploiter that had the mentality that workers should be grateful for subsistence wage that put a roof over their heads and provided food!

I say thank goodness those days have largely gone and it's recognised that to secure true employee engagement and service excellence and high standards and not have constant turnover and such as poor morale and motivation that you need to reward well. Not just in financial terms either but in developing staff and providing for needs other than the basic of putting a roof over their heads.
I think the term "living wage" is the kicker. What does that mean? Most Americans are no longer raised to believe that they need a roof over their head, healthy food, good working conditions. We've lost that rural, agricultural mindset that "work" means doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done. The animals need to be fed every day. They get sick. The hay has to be cut according to the weather. Americans now "require" a Monday through Friday, 8 to 5 work week with benefits. Barn owners are more likely to find foreigners that have the "rural" mindset. That's just the reality.

And I just did the math for my own farm. My board is currently 825 per month. There is no wiggle room. We struggle every month to have enough money to get to the end of the month without sacrificing our quality of care. Unexpected expenses (tractor repair, busted pipes) eat into our tight budget. I pay our help what I consider a fair wage and treat them with respect. In order to raise their pay 5 dollars an hour and offer health insurance, I would need to raise my board by 200 per month.

Oh, and I do what lots of farms do. I am my own Barn Manager. My compensation for that job is a stall that I don't pay board on. I am at the farm every day that I'm not at a show, weekends and holidays included. I sleep with the cell phone beside my bed. So basically, I'm paid 825 a month for being the Manager. But it's worth it to me because I require lessons or training to board at my farm. Pay me what it's really worth and go ahead and add that to the board rate.

I think that's the deal with any BM position. There's not enough money in the budget to pay what that job is worth. So you need to be able to teach or ride. That's where you make your living. These folks that think you can get paid a "living wage" to manage a barn 40 hours per week with benefits are dreaming.

Furthermore it sounds to me like you are over extended in that your operating costs are too close to (or exceed) your income. It also sounds to me like you've made a choice to favour your customers over your employees and to let them have the advantage of you not charging to adequately cover your overheads. Furthermore if you're only getting a free board for your own horse or $825 for a months full time work then it sounds like you are just a busy fool or being taken advantage of.

Then we need to be clear about what the accountabilities and responsibilities of a Barn Manager is. If it is just shovelling sh** then I'd say the market rate should be less. If it genuinely being totally accountable for managing other staff, dealing with clients and managing all day to day matters to do with horses then it's worth more. The market rate is for sure not $825 a month! it is entirely possible to get paid a market rate which is a real living wage and not to be on call 24/7 but you might need to better manage your career.

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:23 PM

The issue has been lumped together from an earlier poster who had a bad experience as a barn worker. And from so many who insist on their idea of a "living wage" for all workers. I've seen many threads on COTH re: illegal immigrants where we have this same "living wage" discussion.

I think it's a good distinction you make. Barn workers vs skilled Barn Managers. All things considered, I think that working in a barn beats laying bricks or working at McD's. I still say that those Barn Manager-only positions with 5 days a week plus benefits are unrealistic in most cases (like 95% of the cases). The wage just isn't there in the budget. Wasn't that the original question?

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 01:35 PM

Thomas1, the trade-off I've made is that I prefer to manage my own horses. While what I do is probably "worth" more, I prefer to be really creative so that I can have a happy clientele that takes lessons and goes to shows. My boarders help out when we have clinics or shows here to bring in extra income. They know that if everyone doesn't give a little, board would be sky high.

I pay my workers a really good salary and provide a nice place to live. I'm better to them than many and I don't have a lot of turnover. All three of the trainers here (myself mainly, and my 2 assistants) help with the management. Between us, the horses here have experienced, caring eyes on them all the time. While I don't get paid much for the management, I do really well with the training. I get to work in a fabulous ring, at a beautiful farm. My clients are able to show, where I make good money, as do my grooms. It's a great system and I love my job. I couldn't afford a 5 day per week BM with benefits.

kimball1

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:04 PM

Wow, did this stir up a firestorm! Yikes. In any case, thanks Thomas1 for your posting. I am thinking our package will be along the lines of what you offer. Bottom line is we are putting a million dollars on the line building a brand new facility, and that does not include the price of the land, and I cannot afford to have it not run properly. Our area of the country can support this kind of investment. Full board with an indoor typically runs between $850-1100 a month not including training and with a brand new facility we will be at the top of that range. Also, in addition to the 36 stall training barn, we'll have a 3 stall barn with runouts for babies, broodmares etc, plus a 4 stall area for horses needing lay-up, rehab, etc. where the board will be priced less than the training barn. So, in total we will have 43 horses, and most of these horses will be in the mid-five figure range and up, so the nature of the business requires a top, professional barn manager with plenty of experience. Luckily we have a couple of people in mind who have have expressed interest, so I should be able to hire someone we know. Of course the expectation is that this is a salaried job, so if a horse is coming in and the truck gets there at 2AM, the BM will be there to unload. (they will have on-site housing) If a horse colics they need to be there-when we run clinics it will be an 18 hour day, etc. I am definitely not thinking this is 9-5, and there will most certainly be weeks they work 6 days. Also, my husband will be working at the facility FT. He is the business manager, but doesn't have the horse experience to be the farm manager.

Dinah-do

Feb. 3, 2009, 02:51 PM

For many years I subsidised other owners's horses with the idea that they would spell me off at say Xmas or Mother's day and perhaps do evening feed so I had a few hours out. What a funny story! Now I have no boarders, less maintenance and pay staff well. I know one person in my area that does a fantastic job of boarding but she charges what it costs and her rates are at least 50% more than the average. She is always full. At the end of the day if you bust your butt looking after outside horses you will do nothing but burn out.

YankeeLawyer

Feb. 3, 2009, 03:17 PM

MistyBlue

Feb. 3, 2009, 03:19 PM

There's a world of difference between a large multi-million dollar facility and your average everyday boarding barns.
A lot will depend on area...in many areas a BO just cannot ask $850 for board. They'll never get it. But not all horse owners in that area have their own land and need to board. So what's a BO to do? Not board because their area doesn't support $850 monthly board fees? And those owners who can't afford need to sell their horses? All because the BO cannot afford to charge enough board to cover the retirement of any hired help?
Ridiculous.
Not every BO runs the same type of business...and not every horse wants to/can afford to board somewhere that has large costs. There needs to be a niche for each type of horse owner and BO. Some of these niches will *not* support any hired help to receive free housing, free board, a living wage, benefits and retirement. And that's okay, because nobody is forcing barn help or BMs to take the jobs. If they cannot fund their retirements from a job, they find a new one. If they're young, they don't care about their retirement so much.
It seems silly to me that any and every boarding business needs to be high end expensive places so that the BO can afford to fully support it's staff for the rest of their natural born lives. :confused: Not every job is something people retire from. It's rare to find working barns that have retirement aged BMs or staff...this job isn't easy on the body and not many can work full time barn work from the age of 20 to retirement age.
For any place that's hiring and BM and has the funds to pay that BM...the BM is most likely doing office work as well as physical labor...and possibly not even physical labor. Around here it's going to be a large facility with a known trainer and high end boarding/training fees in order to pay those salaries. Which is great. But what about the 20 stall places with a lesson program to offset the little-to-no-profit from boarding? Around me they're charging anywhere from $400-$600 per month. On 20 stalls that's not leaving enough for the BO to pay a full benefit, full living wage and retirement package for their type of BM...who will be doing some ordering and paperwork but also teaching lessons and doing horse care. They *may* be able to afford to give them free board for one horse and an apartment...which adds greatly to the payment package seeing as how finding a 1 bedroom to rent in CT for less than $800-$1000 is next to impossible. That would add around $17k per year in salary if they had to rent for $900 and board for $500. So if they're paid $15k per year...that's a combined package of $32k for a job that doesn't require extended education.

Jsalem

Feb. 3, 2009, 03:22 PM

Excellent post, MistyBlue. It's definitely a "numbers game."

silver2

Feb. 3, 2009, 10:21 PM

Hooked on Reefing: I too am offended by your posts. Why do you assume to judge that my business is "overextended" and that I am basically a poor businesswoman?

I assume it because you've stated you don't make any money at it ;) But the reality is that your boarding and training operations are one and the same business and you make a profit at it, albeit with huge overhead, so you're an OK businesswoman. If they were really two separate businesses you'd be able to dump the non-profitable one (boarding) and just keep the profitable one (training). I don't know why you are insisting they are separate?

Besides the OP asked for numbers regarding salary and I think I'm the only one to give her some. They are out of date but ARE realistic and in line with what I've personally been offered in the past.

Misty- a 20 stall barn does not need a full time skilled BM, unless those are Olympic horses. You have to have enough income to cover your overhead, 40 horses is probably a more general minimum.

Thomas_1

Feb. 4, 2009, 05:08 AM

Silver,

I gave numbers though..... albeit UK numbers. I do however know that the market is pretty comparable in the USA.

I'd also make some other comments:

But the reality is that your boarding and training operations are one and the same business and you make a profit at it, albeit with huge overhead, Sounds like that to me too.

If they were really two separate businesses you'd be able to dump the non-profitable one (boarding) and just keep the profitable one (training). I don't know why you are insisting they are separate? Seems totally logical to me.

Misty- a 20 stall barn does not need a full time skilled BM, unless those are Olympic horses. You have to have enough income to cover your overhead, 40 horses is probably a more general minimum. I disagree here. Of course there's some presumptions to be made and I start with the premise that each horse has an owner who wants to ride it when they've time and inclination. So the horses are going to be fully managed and so ensuring they're not just fed and mucked out but kept appropriately fit in case the owner turns up at the weekend to ride each day and say maybe a 2 hour ride out or else if it's raining to use an arena.

So I'm thinking 2 to 3 staff will be required - one of who could well be the owner. I'm thinking though that for 20 horses and potentially 20 owners that someone is going to have to manage stuff like feeding, worming, exercise programmes, veterinary treatments, routine farrier regimes and call outs. Take decisions relating to turn out and paddock management and what horse goes where. Generally ensure that everything is well run and managed. Ensure insurance is appropriate and valid. Keep accounts, invoice customers. Maintain such as Arena Booking record. Liaise with customers. Generally offer them support, advice handle their queries etc.

Hence I'm also thinking that 1 of those staff - maybe the owner - is going to have to be accountable and take responsibility. Now if that's not a Barn Manager I don't know what is. IMO to do anything else would be falling short on what 20 horses and their owners would require and expect and would run the risk of things not getting systematically and properly done.

Thomas_1

Feb. 4, 2009, 06:01 AM

Wow, did this stir up a firestorm! Yikes. In any case, thanks Thomas1 for your posting. I am thinking our package will be along the lines of what you offer. You're very welcome. I'm thinking your facility sounds a heck of a lot posher than mine. You've got the benefit of purpose built.

I go through phases where I think an indoor arena would be a good idea. Especially in winter! But because a driving arena needs to be 100m x 40m and even then that can be a struggle for a novice, it means it would be a heck of a single span building and expensive! (£140,000 last estimate!) So whilst it might be a good idea, it isn't a good business plan. I'd be dead and buried before I recouped the capital cost! My preference is for a 2 or 3 year payback on most things and absolutely never more than a 10 year on major single investment.

I had a couple of vacancies from last November. I filled one pretty quickly (training role so less experience required) but struggled to fill the 2nd for a qualified and experienced groom. I could get a sh** shoveller whenever I like but that isn't what I want or need. So I've temporarily covered the vacant post with casual work from someone who used to work for me but now has a young family and have decided now to recruit in the Spring.

It also sounds to me like your husband with his "business experience" will be a valuable asset. IME there's a heck of a lot of self-employed folks, many of whom are proprietors in things equestrian and farming who haven't got a clue about "business". It's why so many go out of business within a relatively short time or else worry themselves sick about making ends meet. There's a heck of a lot who are what I call "busy fools". They're flogging their pan out and working themselves to an early grave and getting little or no return for their effort and investment. Often the best they're doing is subsidising their lifestyle and the nice roof they have over their heads. Now personally speaking I don't call that living, its existing. Neither do I call it a real business: unless it's a deliberate strategy for such as a tax write off against other genuinely separate business or other income and as I mentioned earlier.

I'm of the strong view that if you're working 24/7 for little return that there's better ways to live and balance your life. Personally speaking I'd prefer to do a basic job for a reasonable income and spend more time doing what I like and want to do and hang the worry and responsibility!

Sounds like you're clear about the market.

You know that truth is the words "equestrian market" covers from those with cheap or "free" pasture ornament that they know nothing about and do nothing with ever, through enthusiastic knowledgeable owner/riders and to high end wealthy enthusiasts and sponsors of competition and well bred performance proven horses.

So truth is there's a fundamental decision to be made when you go into the business about "what bit of the market do you want to serve". That decision then drives what resources you will need (facility/equipment/staff) and that in turn leads to what investment you will have to make.

You then have to factor in all the operating costs. So everything you need to spend to run that operation and including: employee costs, premises costs, repairs, motoring costs, insurance, electricity, advertising & promotion, legal and professional fees e.g. accountant, interest charges, your own labour and tax and all other expenses such as tack and equipment and horse feed etc etc etc etc.

THAT then determines the price you charge. You then again revisit the market and if the price you need to charge isn't sustainable, then you don't do it and you have to revisit your business plan and adjust things accordingly if you can.

It always seems to me that too many providing equestrian services are business inept. They start arse about face. They start by having buildings or they start with the cost to the customer. They then seem to get caught up in never being able to pass on changes to costs in overheads and often don't even know what they are actually spending for the corresponding return in income.

Makes no difference whether you have a £10million huge high end establishment with every creature comfort for 100 horses and their owners or else 4 stables and a 6 acre paddock that you are going to totally manage and run all by yourself. The fundamental principles are the same unless you don't mind being a busy fool or placing your faith in " good luck" rather than "good business management"

I always find it wryly amusing when someone starts to complain vehemently about the standard of care, support or facilities they're getting and then says they pay less than £200 per month.

I always want to say "Do the maths! What do you expect!!!

I for one won't and don't subsidise other folks life choices though by carrying cost of ownership and overheads myself.

Neither do I see it as my responsibility to financially susidise those who can't afford the true cost for fear the horse they own and are responsible for ends up sold, abandoned or in a dog food tin.

Bluey

Feb. 4, 2009, 07:23 AM

---"I for one won't and don't subsidise other folks life choices though by carrying cost of ownership and overheads myself."---

Lucky you that can do that.
Many people in agriculture in the USA are there because of the lifestyle and barely make a living, much less enough to expand, for the last 30 or so years.

Until the last few years, when I diversified, I was the last one left of the working ranches in our area still making it, of those that were started some 100 years ago.
Those today have most of them sold to investors, that don't use them for profit centers.;)
One of my neighbor sold five times in a few years, one thru bankrupcy court.:(

The government tries to control the prices for commodities, as that is a bright star in our international trade, then gives some subsidies back to the producers, some in the way of crop insurance and makes following the markets a bigger gamble than putting the money on the tables in a casino.
We protect ourselves best we can with another big gamble, the commodities market.
The public benefits by having some of the cheapest, safest, varied and more aboundant food in the more advanced countries, but it is done on the backs of many farmers.

The horse industry here is in it's major part the same, reflects how much of agriculture is faring, living off the equity of the ones that try to make a business out of it, because too many out there don't and can provide those goods and services cheaper and few consumers want to pay more for a little better quality.
Much of the available services in our horse industry are driven by the hobby horsemen and, although many of those try to make it a paying business, for many, as you see reflected here, it is not that necessary that it be one, they have other income they gladly use to subsidize their horses and equestrian lifestyles.

As long as some will provide the same at a lesser cost, the consumers wonder why they should pay more for similar?

Around here there have been some build a nice barn with indoors and many amenities and they have to sell out at a considerable loss, because someone down the road has some sheds and pens and charges 10 times less and, honestly, at least here, in our climate, the horses in the rows of pens are happier than in a box stall.;)

As I say, lucky you that can set the price for what you sell, goods and services and have some that can pay it, when others around you will under cut you.

You really can't make general declarations and expect them to work the same for others and moreso in another continent (and yes, I am aware that you have visited here) any more than I could tell you what will work where you are.

kookicat

Feb. 4, 2009, 07:32 AM

Trixie

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:55 AM

You really can't make general declarations and expect them to work the same for others and moreso in another continent (and yes, I am aware that you have visited here) any more than I could tell you what will work where you are.

A lot of Thomas's points are just plain good business sense, regardless of the continent.

Bluey

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:10 AM

A lot of Thomas's points are just plain good business sense, regardless of the continent.

Sure, but my point was that the horse industry, sadly, as much of agriculture is, is not run ONLY by "just plain good business sense".

That happens when someone's livelihood is someone else's hobby or tax break.:(

Mav226

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:23 AM

These 20k salaries are ridiculous. That is not a living wage. That is a wage that is designed to make the person dependent on food stamps and Medicaid.

There was a book called Nickel and Dimed, written by a well known sociologist in the late 90's that chronicled her experiments in attempting to live on minimum wage. At the time, she concluded that an actual living wage was upwards of $8.00/hour. This book was written over 10 years ago. Think to yourselves how much your own costs have increased since then!

I think the hang-up is in the job title/description. I view a barn MANAGER, as someone who manages muckers, orders supplies, conducts inventory, deals with PR/marketing, customer relations, is responsible for instructing those hired to maintain the property, etc.

The MOST important job of a barn manager, IMO, is to find and maintain contacts so that he/she can actually help make the barn run more efficiently. Having a good barn manager can make the difference between paying a fortune for a farrier vs. getting a 'group discount'. Having a BM find discounts on everything from wormer to chiropractic services and making contacts in the industry is really the reason why they should be paid like any other manager in a business.

IMO, 35k plus housing and affordable insurance is fair (to start out). Also, they should be paid like any other employee and eligible for worker's comp/unemployment, etc. Cost of living raises should be included in the contract with additional bonuses based on performance given at your discretion.

If you intend to keep this BM long term, pay a wage that is not only liveable, but moderately comfortable.

Paying someone McDonalds wages for manager level work is not going to find you qualified or dedicated applicants.

On the flip side, don't turn your BM into a glorified mucker or dog-sitter. Those are entry level jobs and should be paid accordingly.

Trixie

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:27 AM

It also sounds to me like your husband with his "business experience" will be a valuable asset. IME there's a heck of a lot of self-employed folks, many of whom are proprietors in things equestrian and farming who haven't got a clue about "business". It's why so many go out of business within a relatively short time or else worry themselves sick about making ends meet. There's a heck of a lot who are what I call "busy fools". They're flogging their pan out and working themselves to an early grave and getting little or no return for their effort and investment. Often the best they're doing is subsidising their lifestyle and the nice roof they have over their heads. Now personally speaking I don't call that living, its existing. Neither do I call it a real business: unless it's a deliberate strategy for such as a tax write off against other genuinely separate business or other income and as I mentioned earlier.

Bluey, it would seem he pointed out the difference between subsidizing your own lifestyle and hobby and a profitable business.

Whether or not one chooses to run their boarding business as a profit-making entity or not is their decision. You are correct that in the US, a lot of folks run their boarding business as a lifestyle choice, to subsidize their own lifestyles and offset their own costs. It is not frequently a huge profit turner.

However, some people are still capable of running their businesses as businesses, because they didn’t overextend themselves starting out, built slowly, and built up.

That is not exclusive to either continent.

Thomas_1

Feb. 4, 2009, 09:39 AM

Originally by Thomas_1---"I for one won't and don't subsidise other folks life choices though by carrying cost of ownership and overheads myself."--- Lucky you that can do that.

Weird response...... As in totally irrational! All you have to do is STOP. You have a choice. You either pay out for someone else or you DON'T. Last I figured no matter where in the world you are, NO-ONE said you had to subsidise someone else's horse ownership.

Even if you are just doing a hobby you don't have to do it!

Until the last few years, when I diversified, I was the last one left of the working ranches in our area still making it, of those that were started some 100 years ago.
Those today have most of them sold to investors, that don't use them for profit centers.;)
One of my neighbor sold five times in a few years, one thru bankrupcy court.:( All good case examples of why it's important to know the market and have a business plan and ensure you are maximising your investment and recovering your overheads.

The public benefits by having some of the cheapest, safest, varied and more aboundant food in the more advanced countries, but it is done on the backs of many farmers. yes it sure is. There's a huge difference though. Everyone needs food and its not a luxury lifestyle choice.

The horse industry here is in it's major part the same, reflects how much of agriculture is faring, living off the equity of the ones that try to make a business out of it, because too many out there don't and can provide those goods and services cheaper and few consumers want to pay more for a little better quality. Disagree totally.

The horse industry is an elite market and a luxury lifestyle choice. The food market is entirely different. Though again I would contend that in agriculture there are business choices to be made to ensure there's sustainability and to be clear about which area of the market you're going to be in.

Much of the available services in our horse industry are driven by the hobby horsemen and, although many of those try to make it a paying business, for many, as you see reflected here, it is not that necessary that it be one, they have other income they gladly use to subsidize their horses and equestrian lifestyles. IMO they drive the market down and give a false illusion of the true price of ownership. I'm anticipating that will set the cat among the pigeons! ;)

As long as some will provide the same at a lesser cost, the consumers wonder why they should pay more for similar? Because educated customers recognise there's a diference with what can be provided and recognise that if a business isn't sustainable they're not going to enjoy cheap price for ever.

As I say, lucky you that can set the price for what you sell, goods and services and have some that can pay it, when others around you will under cut you. Trust me it's got NOTHING to do with luck! I'm not one of those that subscribe to the "things just happen theory"

You really can't make general declarations and expect them to work the same for others and moreso in another continent (and yes, I am aware that you have visited here) any more than I could tell you what will work where you are.
I can and I did and I'm right! ;)

Business sense is business sense no matter where in the world you are.

I've not told anyone here at all what they must do in relation to managing a specific equestrian business or even which bit of the market they should personally be in.

It's just simple business principles. You tell me which one of the following basic principles I've emphasised througout is different in the USA than the UK

1) Have too much expenditure and cost and too little income - you're going bankrupt.

2) Pay staff subsistence rates or rates than the equitable market rate - you get them for a short while until they find something different. You'll not have the best trained and most highly competent. You'll likely have high turnover and high absence.

3) Pay staff in the upper quartile - you're likely to get the best and retain them and engage them.

4) Engage staff - Business and human resources principles say that up to 50% of effort is voluntary. Engaged staff give voluntary effort. They do more than a basic job description. They use their initiative. They stay on if there's a crisis. They continually learn and develop and take on more.

5) Have untrained and inept staff - you'll be flogging your guts out compensating for it

6) Have a mass of capital tied up that you'll never recover - you might as well sell and keep it safe and put it in a box under the bed or just stick it in a nice safe bank (is there such a thing right now?!) to make a little interest.

7) Charge customers less than it costs - you're subsidising them

8) Compete on cost alone - you attract the low end of the market

9) Provide a service that is purely chosen because of cost - it's price sensitive

10) Provide in a price sensitive market - when things get tough that's the market that collapses first.

11) Continue to run a business that isn't sustainable - you go bankrupt

12) Set up somewhere where there's no market - you go out of business

13) Invest a mass of money you'll never recover - send it to me!

14) Flog your guts out working or even just managing staff - whether they're low or high paid and harge customers less than you spend or draw out a tiny profit that's less than minimum wage - then your a busy fool!

kdriding

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:00 AM

Hey Kimball.

I was a barn manager for an 80 stall H/J facility in PA and I was paid 600/week (worked 5 days/wk but was there 7 days/wk) and I did a TON of stalls. I also had a stall included for my horse and all my lessons and coaching at shows. No health care, but I did get paid vaca.

Another farm I managed was 25 stall multi-discipline barn. I has a salary of $700/week (sched 5 days but was there at least 6). I has 2 stalls included, but no lessons or coaching. My trainer was off site at the time. I could have had health care but my husband carries all of that stuff. I also had paid vaca.

Both these farms were in PA. I had to do stalls at both. I was also in charge of all farrier/vet sched, turnout sched, ordering all feeds, hay, supplies, etc., and I did some payroll stuff. That scratches the surface of my responsibilites. :winkgrin:

I may have only been sched. to be there 5 days but I was always at the barn. Both barns were a 1.5 hour drive from my house one way! That was the only thing I didn't like about the job, but I never missed a day of work!:D

Jsalem

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:15 AM

For myself (and many others I'm sure) the Boarding operations at the farm are a Loss Leader. Get them in the door and make money off of other things. That's not bad business. And in this business, it's about the only thing that works for most areas of the country.

kdriding points out what is typical for many in the business. She made a decent wage (not great) for her Management responsibilities. She had the opportunity at one job to make over and above by training or going to shows. Sometimes creativity and flexibility are needed to adequately compensate your employees. Sounds like she was a hard worker who was willing to do what was needed (including mucking) and could use her initiative if she wanted more compensation.

Again, it's a numbers game.

tkhawk

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:18 AM

Horse boarding and training is very different from agriculture.

Agriculture in today's world is no different than any other business-mining, banking or even an auto manufacturer. Just like any other industry, it has consolidated. Like in the old days when Wal-Mart came to town, drove all the small retailers out of business. It is tough to compete against that much resources . You could have a ten year drought in your area-it may barely make a dent to their operations, if they have land in different areas or even different countries. Add commodities markets. I have friends who trade commodoties-everything from milk to oil to gold to soy to God knows what. To most of them, milk is no different than oil-profit is what counts. That is not going away. heck some of them are so in the city-they wouldn't know the front-end of a cow from the back end. Yet these folks may trade more milk contracts in a year than a small dairy producer does in a lifetime.To adapt, small farmers have to turn creative and maybe sell organic, whatever-whatever floats the boat in that local region. Otherwise you can't compete on price with a conglomerate. Bigger corporate farms will have all kinds of strategies-hedging etc.. They also have access to immense resources. There are just too many layers in between for a small farmer to make it year after year and compete succesfully-unless you specilize, think up something new, that is not dependendant on providing the lowest cost product.

Horse boarding is very different. It is not a commodity-generally, the layers are limited. At most, you may have owners, trainers, BOs, BM and such. But not like a big industry. There are much more things in your control. If you have a facility in Australia, that someone can offer cheaper boarding in India at a 10th of the price is irrelevant. That China can manipulate its currency and run cheaper boarding barns-doesn't affect you. You do have general stuff-the economy, if your location looses jobs and becomes less desirable, three new barns opening up close to you etc. but that is similar to the other smaller business. Quality is also easy to measure-unlike stuff you buy in the market. You don't have hedge funds buying and selling empty spaces in boarding barns(Thank God for that!:yes:).

But yes as Thomas said, running a business is the same anywhere. You have to know the market, what you are up against, what you have to offer, your drawbacks, a good marketing strategy and a plan to achieve your goals. Of course be ready if stuff gets blown off course as it always ends up doing-if we could predict the future very accurately-we would be retired, or if you enjoy your job/business, working because you want to, not because we are paying the bills ..:winkgrin:

willowoodstables

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:53 AM

FWIW, in Calgary Alberta the kids working at MacDonalds are making $18/hr. I am a barn slave, by choice. I am dedicated, hard working and care about the horses. I make crap money, but I can afford it. My biggest fear is burnout. The hours can be long and longer, and if the BO is a tool, there is only so many times you can bite your tongue. Fortunately, my BO is super, struggling to be profitable and sincerely would give me the moon to keep me. If I needed the money, I'd be at Mickey D's right now!

Kim

kdriding

Feb. 4, 2009, 10:54 AM

Just to clarify, I had my personal coaching/lessons included. Also for my daughter. I didn't teach or coach. :D

I thought what I made was fair. Granted, I put is very long hours, but I loved every minute of it. And when I wasn't at the barn, I was monitoring things by phone and net cam. I also have my degree in Equine Studies and what not, and I paid for my own education. There were some sale horses I was in charge of and got a portion of the profit from thier sales.

sketcher

Feb. 4, 2009, 08:43 PM

I assume it because you've stated you don't make any money at it ;) But the reality is that your boarding and training operations are one and the same business and you make a profit at it, albeit with huge overhead, so you're an OK businesswoman. If they were really two separate businesses you'd be able to dump the non-profitable one (boarding) and just keep the profitable one (training). I don't know why you are insisting they are separate?

Because then you can justify that you can't afford to pay a decent wage to the employees working for the portion of the business that is not profitable. Duh!

I worked and lived on an arabian breeding farm my last year of high school. I was determined to work with horses for a living - I worked more than full time while finishing school and I was paid in room and board, always with the promise that it would lead to more as soon as she was able to sell some horses. I had to walk a mile to the main road and thumb a ride to school (after getting up to do the morning feeding and turnout) the next town over because she couldn't bother to get out of bed to drive me but you bet she was able to drive every single day to pick me up so I could come home and do every bit of barnwork - by myself, including 'midnight snacks' which of course had to be at midnight. The farm owner had a nice source of inherited income and had money to continually buy 20-50k horses and two expensive stallions which she did not stand to the outside but she could never afford to pay me even spending money because the she wasn't selling anything. She never had any intention of having a profitable business but it took me about 4 years to smarten up as I was young and naive (and homeless) when I went to live with her at 17.

Some of you will say that most people aren't like that because you may not have experienced that part of the horse world but there are many people like that. There is a reason that there are posters who seem cynical and that is because many of us have been burned when we were young by farm owners so willing to take advantage.

The argument will also be that most farm owners aren't in the type of financial position listed above but I would argue that there are an awful lot of fairly wealthy people with farms, doing it because they 'love it', not necessarily dependent on it for income to feed their families and who feel entitled enough to take advantage of people - thinking that they should be grateful for the opportunity.