For you hoof nuts/ 2 55 mi. races barefoot, pics

[AZ Native]

Here are pictures of a mare's feet taken after 110 mi. endurance ride. 55 the first day and 55 the next in Southern New Mexico, 2 weekends ago. The mare vetted with all A's. The terrain was sand, caliche, gravel and lava rock. Many shod horses were pulled due to stone bruises.She did the ride competely barefoot. This horse still needs to be trimmed every 2 weeks as she puts down so much hoof inspite of the miles our client puts on her. She intends to compete this mare in the 100's this year and the WEG in 2010, iron free ! This horse has only been iron free since last spring.:D And no, she did not top 10, nor was that the goal as it was the first ride of the season and her new 100 mi. prospect.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/PearlAndHerFeetAfter110MiJan09#5297174560128129122

Hopefully the link works!

[LMH]

Link works fine!

Those were quite fun to pour over!

[webmistress32]

I love "horse porn" ! (hoof pics)

nice feet. :D

[decorum]

That's awesome! I would love to have a horse that can always go bare on any surface. No endurance, just 20 miles or less. Maybe someday, not with the horse I have since he has an old hoof injury with nerve damage.

I bet someone is wondering why they ever put shoes on this horse to start with. lol

Ann Szolas

[ChocoMare]

Gawjus feets!!!! :yes:

[matryoshka]

Here are some pics taken right after the ride. (AZ Native sent them to me.)

[AZ Native]

Thanks! Here is a link to those, hope it works ! It does and better quality , taken immediately after the ride !
http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/Pearl?authkey=bRpk95Mjh2o#

[HoustonFarrier]

Here are some pics taken right after the ride. (AZ Native sent them to me.)

Those cannot be the same....the horse in the orginal post has 4 white feet.....those pics are black feet...or am I missing something?

Steve

[jaimebaker]

Those cannot be the same....the horse in the orginal post has 4 white feet.....those pics are black feet...or am I missing something?

Steve

From the first photo I saw it looks like the horse has two dark hooves and two shell.

[AZ Native]

I bet someone is wondering why they ever put shoes on this horse to start with. lol

Ann Szolas

She was doing what everyone does, in shoes and doing very well racing. She started rethinking the whole shoe thing while laid up with an injury last year. Things she was seeing with the shod feet she didn't like.The research she did made sense to her and she decided to go for it and found my DH, who could fit her horses with Renagades and rehab her horses.She still takes heat from her peers, but she has a national BC win for 08 and a regional 1st BC. She is beating the folks that say it cannot be done sans iron.:cool: She is a tough competitor and a really nice person. A great horse owner,really.

[matryoshka]

Sorry about that. There were quite a few pics, and I don't know the horse. I just grabbed a few, reduced in size (necessary for COTH), and put them up. They weren't labeled by which foot is which, so I didn't match them up. My fault entirely.

[AZ Native]

Those cannot be the same....the horse in the orginal post has 4 white feet.....those pics are black feet...or am I missing something?

Steve

The pictures are the same horse, 2 different days, 2 different cameras.The first set are DH's , the second the owner's. I put the link up to the second set so they could be more easily seen.The horse is a grey with all white ( or shell ) feet. Use the link in post # 7.Hope that clarifies !

[AZ Native]

Sorry about that. There were quite a few pics, and I don't know the horse. I just grabbed a few, reduced in size (necessary for COTH), and put them up. They weren't labeled by which foot is which, so I didn't match them up. My fault entirely.

No worries, i did not label them either. I appreciate your putting them up 'til I could figure it out myself. I love Picassa, it's idiot proof !:lol:

[LarkspurCO]

I have no comment on the feet, except to say they look like nice feet and obviously are working well for the horse.

This isn't meant as a dig, but more of a curiosity. I can't help but notice the conformation and conditioning of the horse -- upside-down neck, weird hocks/hind end. It does not look like a horse would hold up in the long run, feet notwithstanding. How old is the horse and how long has it been competing?

[George Myers]

This isn't meant as a dig, but more of a curiosity. I can't help but notice the conformation and conditioning of the horse -- upside-down neck, weird hocks/hind end. It does not look like a horse would hold up in the long run, feet notwithstanding. How old is the horse and how long has it been competing?

My thoughts also - plus quite hollow behind the withers and a look of tension - in fact the body pic came as a surprise in light of the performance.

I noticed what looks like a large abscess exit at the coronet in one pic (in the second set) - they certainly aren't text book perfect feet - I'd be interested to see how they stand up over time.

[JB]

My thoughts also - plus quite hollow behind the withers and a look of tension - in fact the body pic came as a surprise in light of the performance.


I noticed it too.

While I am by no means an expert at what endurance horses tend to look like, I will say that most of the ones I have seen (and I've seen more than 2 ;)) have a similar look. All the ones I've seen have all been ridden "upside down", either actively ( as in, riders looking like they are hand-riding the horses to keep the speed down) or passively (allowing the horse to assume whatever posture he likes, and face it, what horse will engage and lift without being asked, especially if never taught ;)).

I would absolutely love to see pictures of endurance horses who are not upside down. I KNOW there have to be some, and they surely belong to people who spend a couple of days a week "dressage-ing" their horses.

[LMH]

I noticed what looks like a large abscess exit at the coronet in one pic (in the second set) - they certainly aren't text book perfect feet - I'd be interested to see how they stand up over time.

I was just having this conversation with someone...and this is NOT directed at the OP just general comments on a conversation:)

It seems many people get caught up in the moment of the 'win' or activity-this horse performed today or this week or this year well therefore he is fine...the when ugly things work well argument.

The problem is-what about longterm?

If an exercise is done properly (by horse, human, whatever) the correct muscles will develop-if not, then they don't

Same with hooves-ugly today can very well mean broken down tomorrow.

It seems to be quite popular arguments justifying less than precise hoof care-he is fine! He can jump high, run fast, etc.

When in fact poor form (in hoof or body) can't help but have a negative impact over time.

The ugly is fine argument used to be a criticism to farriers-lately I have noticed more and more 'barefooters' clapping and applauding poor hoof form just because a horse is 'sound' bare.

The slippery slope is hard to reverse when it comes to accepting mediocre hoof form, body conditioning, whatever.

AGAIN-to the op-NOT a shot at you-this is just a topic I think needs a little more volume in horse/hoof conditioning discussions.

[rainechyldes]

Feet look like they held up pretty well. I run a few of my endurance horses barefoot. some are shod.

May I ask what the terrain was like on that ride?

As to the comment about what endurance horses look like.

They come in all shapes, sizes and conformation really, and are very dependant on their owners riding style obviously as to how they are muscled. (which I know is a no brainer sentence!:)

I see the entire gamut at rides. Upside down necks, etc right over to toplines I would die for on a horse. I find it also depends a bit on the terrain. I live in a fairly mountainous region and I note when the US riders come up their horses are a bit different build (development wise) - (usually WA, OR & ID horses are what I see for the most part.)

Our horses here tend to have a bulkier topline then theirs due to all the up and down work. At the same note, sometimes my horses have trouble on the flatlander rides as I call them, where speed can be much quicker and it's miles and miles of straight flat.


Also if you search endurance net, or results- you'll find quite a number of riders worldwide do ride endurance barefoot (sans boots!) It's actually very common. In our club I know hmm.. offhand I can think of probably 10 riders easy who compete barefoot every year, 50s up to 100s. (successfully I might add:))

Her's a link that might interest you if you feel like reading about top level barefoot endurance horses and their races/completions/placings from Down Under.

http://www.endurancehorse.co.za/Default.aspx?tabid=33

[rainechyldes]

I was just having this conversation with someone...and this is NOT directed at the OP just general comments on a conversation:)

It seems many people get caught up in the moment of the 'win' or activity-this horse performed today or this week or this year well therefore he is fine...the when ugly things work well argument.

The problem is-what about longterm?

If an exercise is done properly (by horse, human, whatever) the correct muscles will develop-if not, then they don't

Same with hooves-ugly today can very well mean broken down tomorrow.

It seems to be quite popular arguments justifying less than precise hoof care-he is fine! He can jump high, run fast, etc.

When in fact poor form (in hoof or body) can't help but have a negative impact over time.

The ugly is fine argument used to be a criticism to farriers-lately I have noticed more and more 'barefooters' clapping and applauding poor hoof form just because a horse is 'sound' bare.

The slippery slope is hard to reverse when it comes to accepting mediocre hoof form, body conditioning, whatever.

AGAIN-to the op-NOT a shot at you-this is just a topic I think needs a little more volume in horse/hoof conditioning discussions.

Actually you are presenting a case thats a bit warm and dear to my heart. Not totally related to barefoot'ing in endurance, but overall management and long term careers of the horses in question. In my idle time, I'll often sit down and trace out horses records through Aerc of horses/riders I know, in some vain attempt to figure out the 'lifetime' of an endurance horse.

In the endurance world there are a lot of variables that affect a long term career. My main 'hate' is I do see riders who have a new horse every year, - the goal is to run them fast and hard to win - then the following year I wonder where that horse now 'is'???? And that's aside from conformation and feet.


You would get no argument from me that solid conformation, hoofcare , nutrition, and general horsemanship can maintain your horse in a many year career much better then not.

I am generally (maybe arrogantly so) proud of the fact that my horses usually begin their endurance career and end it only when they are of an ripe old age. I like to have the same horses to ride year in and year out. For me - that's what it's all about.

Looking outside, this year we have.. upcoming for this season:

an 18 year old who will be racing - he's been racing since he was 10 (when I bought him) (shod )
a 12 yr old racing, who began at 4. (bare)
a 6 year old starting her first season (shod)
a 7 yr old racing who began at 5. (bare)

Last year I retired:
A 26 yr old- whose been racing since she was 5. (shod/fronts only usually)


some are shod, some aren't. It depends on the horse. All run free of any type of maintenance drug/injections etc. Also can say, maybe I've just been really lucky. I dunno:)

[FatPalomino]

:cool: She is a tough competitor and a really nice person. A great horse owner,really. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=179486&page=2 Do These pics (again) feature someone who sold her horse to slaughter??? I actually happened to find the horse and was able to bail her out. The horse was a little rough around the edges with some pretty long feet when I saw her at the sale. The mare's name is DWA Medina. Here is her story:
http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp/archives/past/07/11/msg00086.html

When Tennesse was initially questioned about how the horse wound up at the sale, her first instinct was to lie and say she gave the horse to a neighbor, who (unbenouth to her) had sold the horse for pennies on the pound.. and that she never intended for her horse to have wound up in a bad place and that she was doing everything to be helpful. That directly conflicted with the story we had explained, and I literally had hundreds of phone calls about concerned Arab-lovers wanting to help Medina. We had Medina's papers which showed Tennesse pulled a recent coggins on her and signed the transfer of ownership.

We made sure the horse was safe. Medina was adopted and put in professional training (she needed a lot of work). Tennesse's story eventually changed to reflect a more accurate version. I was even able to meet her in person on the trail and say hi.

Anyway, not a really nice person or great horse owner ...really ...

[AZ Native]

I've deleted the full body pic so as not to turn the thread into a body conditon analysis. Time will tell as to wether or not she will do well long term.Besides, keep in mind the mare lost weight during the ride.

[Tom Stovall]

FatPalomino in gray, stuff deleted

Do These pics (again) feature someone who sold her horse to slaughter???

What the hell business is it of yours - or anyone else's - how folks legally dispose of their chattels?

[AZ Native]

These pictures feature hooves, after a race.

[rainechyldes]

Hey Az Native
sorry maye you missed my question on the first page.

I was wondering what the terrain was like that the horse ran on in those races?

[AZ Native]

It was addressed in my original post. Caliche , gravel , sand and lava rock.:)

[rainechyldes]

me and my reading too fast-- busted again!! (thanks:))

[FatPalomino]

What the hell business is it of yours - or anyone else's - how folks legally dispose of their chattels?
overall, not a really nice person or great horse owner, someone who sold her horse to slaughter

[rainechyldes]

overall, not a really nice person or great horse owner, someone who sold her horse to slaughter

And you are the self appointed tar and feather gang I'm guessing?

Small fly in your ointment.
Selling horses at auction isn't illegal.

[FatPalomino]

I've deleted the full body pic so as not to turn the thread into a body conditon analysis. Time will tell as to wether or not she will do well long term. NO hoof NO horse... now NO horse NO hoof ??? You actively and proudly support horse slaughter?

[rainechyldes]

NO hoof NO horse... now NO horse NO hoof ??? You actively and proudly support horse slaughter?

Pay attention - this is a thread about a horse doing distance s barefoot, not a slaughter thread. Frankly you are the one who sounds maniacal at the moment.

[FatPalomino]

Selling horses at auction isn't illegal.

it is ethical, then, to have a new horse every year and the out of shape,
hairy, and long feet horse slaughtered and in the freezer in Europe somewhere???

[rainechyldes]

it is ethical, then, to have a new horse every year and the out of shape,
hairy, and long feet horse slaughtered and in the freezer in Europe somewhere???

Omg - hello. knock knock.
This isn't a slaughter thread. D

Is there something lacking in your reading skills?

I run barefoot endurance horses, therefore seeing other horses who do the same interests me. And that was what the OP was about.

Go play on a slaughter thread, I'll happily post on it for you to bark at anytime:)

[FatPalomino]

Pay attention - this is a thread about a horse doing distance s barefoot with or without a rider, or owner?

[rainechyldes]

with or without a rider, or owner?

? ok I give up. - talk about slaughter- have fun with that!
I have no idea wtf that question even means, and I'm done talking to someone who appears to be a few crayons short today :)

[jaimebaker]

I for one enjoyed looking through the photos. And I saw them before the body shot got removed. Some people really lack some tact. The thread was about hooves and was blown sideways and upside down to get off track. And the slaughter thing??? What the hell? Go start your own thread.

[JB]

I actually think it's a valid point to discuss body muscling when discussing the health of feet. If feet hurt, the horse cannot use his body properly. If his body isn't working properly, it eventually shows up on the feet. Imagine how well both entities can look, and work, when both are in good shape :)

[rainechyldes]

I actually think it's a valid point to discuss body muscling when discussing the health of feet. If feet hurt, the horse cannot use his body properly. If his body isn't working properly, it eventually shows up on the feet. Imagine how well both entities can look, and work, when both are in good shape :)

I agree - however unless you are used to seeing endurance horses post race - it can be a bit misleading when examining a post race picture. For comparison, most times it's better to also view the pre race body pictures. Some horses do have very different looks pre/post race. Some don't. It depends on the ride/terrain/speed/weather/riding style and the individual horse also.. well variables are endless I suppose.

I usually take a pic of my horse pre and post race, though its more usually for my album (I have a competition album/record) for each horse then for heavy duty analysis.

My pc died last fall, so this picture kinda sucks. This is one of our appyXarabs post ride - hes a barefoot horse. And yes he has a crap neckk -, it's improving through flat work slowly but surely.

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2196837430051065942yocDCS

but he doesn't tend to drop much weight. Our crabbet Arab omg - I feed him more then 3 horses put together to keep his wieght up during a season.

[matryoshka]

I think most people see endurance horses and think they are too thin. One lady around here likes to keep her 100 milers a bit fat so they have the energy to do the distance. However, her idea of "a bit fat" and the average horse owner's ideas are vastly different. ;)

I think part of the neck and topline thing have to do with how the horses move down the trail. For covering distance efficiently, you want to keep out of the horse's way. If you spend his energy keeping him round (which doesn't help him move forward), you are going to burn calories and fatigue muscles. So, you let him boogie down the trail with his head at a comforatable height. I'm not sure what we call a "good topline" does much for a horse covering distance.

Not saying that we shouldn't have our horses go round and keep them off their forehands. It is better for them physically. But I'm also thinking that people competing at 100 mile distances are likely not spending lots of time doing arena work keeping their horse round, or bothering with it when they are on conditioning rides. Having them at peak fitness on competition day seems to be a bit of an art form. Peak fitness for a distance horse doesn't look like peak fitness for a jumper or dressage horse.

ps. Love love love the AppyxArab cross. We had one when I was a kid, and that horse could do anything. He would try to jump the moon if asked. He wasn't easy to ride, but he was a cool horse. Unfortunately, he died of a brain tumor in his teens.

[JB]

I think most people see endurance horses and think they are too thin. One lady around here likes to keep her 100 milers a bit fat so they have the energy to do the distance. However, her idea of "a bit fat" and the average horse owner's ideas are vastly different. ;)
I have no problem seeing the lean endurance horse :)

I think part of the neck and topline thing have to do with how the horses move down the trail. For covering distance efficiently, you want to keep out of the horse's way. If you spend his energy keeping him round (which doesn't help him move forward), you are going to burn calories and fatigue muscles. So, you let him boogie down the trail with his head at a comforatable height. I'm not sure what we call a "good topline" does much for a horse covering distance.

Not saying that we shouldn't have our horses go round and keep them off their forehands. It is better for them physically. But I'm also thinking that people competing at 100 mile distances are likely not spending lots of time doing arena work keeping their horse round, or bothering with it when they are on conditioning rides. Having them at peak fitness on competition day seems to be a bit of an art form. Peak fitness for a distance horse doesn't look like peak fitness for a jumper or dressage horse.
I agree, they can't do mile after mile after mile in a "frame". I'm not sure I agree though that they can't spend 2 days doing some serious dressage work. I fully understand the efficiency of the horse carrying himself like he prefers. But I also can't imagine that if that's ALL he does, that he can stay truly sound for very many years. Their back is a fairly poorly designed suspension bridge, not adapted well to carrying weight. The more hours they spend with their head up and back dropped, however "easy" it might be for the horse, the more damage just has to be occurring. Now, maybe by virture of the type of horses who excel at ER, that damage is slower to occur, or doesn't occur to a greater degree, so they can do that for years and years. Shorter backs maybe, shorter necks, not sure.

[AZ Native]

I actually think it's a valid point to discuss body muscling when discussing the health of feet. If feet hurt, the horse cannot use his body properly. If his body isn't working properly, it eventually shows up on the feet. Imagine how well both entities can look, and work, when both are in good shape :)

It is a valid point,but the topic is hoof pics after a race . And the mare vetted all A's during the ride.I do agree with what you wrote above. But a horse immediately after 110 mi. is not going to look the way he did before or even a few days later.This horse has very good self carriage and is a VERY efficient mover.Rainy said it very well.

[matryoshka]

I agree, they can't do mile after mile after mile in a "frame". I'm not sure I agree though that they can't spend 2 days doing some serious dressage work. I fully understand the efficiency of the horse carrying himself like he prefers. But I also can't imagine that if that's ALL he does, that he can stay truly sound for very many years. Their back is a fairly poorly designed suspension bridge, not adapted well to carrying weight. The more hours they spend with their head up and back dropped, however "easy" it might be for the horse, the more damage just has to be occurring. Now, maybe by virture of the type of horses who excel at ER, that damage is slower to occur, or doesn't occur to a greater degree, so they can do that for years and years. Shorter backs maybe, shorter necks, not sure.Didn't say "can't". Sure they can, if the rider wants to take the time and use the miles doing something other than conditioning. And if the rider knows how to ride them round. The reality is that if a rider doesn't see it as a problem for his horse, he isn't going to put the effort into correcting it. I have no idea what the average longevity is for a 100 mile horse. I'm guessing that other types of unsoundnesses shorten their careers long before back issues come to the fore.

When my OTTB (in my profile) recovered from his leg abscess, I had to get an osteopath to help him with the resulting body soreness. She told me I was hurting him by not making him go round. My goal had been for efficiency in covering miles, not working on getting him off his forehand. Besides, he hated going round. That visit woke me up, and then I worked on getting him round and putting him onto his hindquarters.

The pic in my profile was taken after the leg abcess, coming off of 5 weeks of lay-up, and before the osteopath helped him. After that discussion with the osteopath, I made sure to get him off his forehand under saddle, but his attitude deteriorated. Badly. He's now in another home where he can get some variation in his workload.

You can bet that my horses are going to have time every week going in a frame. Because I now know it is important for them. But I will never be a "serious" distance competitor. I'm a "To finish is to win" kind of rider.

[rcloisonne]

I don't mean to be snarky but from what I've seen there are far too many "endurance riders" who are complete hacks. They have no formal training, equitation skills or horsemanship at all. Just get a cheap horse and hit the trails using cheapest saddles and other tack they can find on ebay.

Some of the "ride" pics I've seen are appalling. Sorry, but I'm not at all surprised at the number of "ewe" necks and other examples of "poor conformation" seen on the horses these hacks ride.

[LMH]

It is a valid point,but the topic is hoof pics after a race . And the mare vetted all A's during the ride.I do agree with what you wrote above. But a horse immediately after 110 mi. is not going to look the way he did before or even a few days later.This horse has very good self carriage and is a VERY efficient mover.Rainy said it very well.

Unfortunately you put a topic out there and the winds will change the direction every time. For many hooves and body can not be seen separately...myself included.

Of course the body won't look the same-the horse is going to be leaned down HOWEVER his overall muscle condition is going to be apparent. A correctly muscled neck just can't go to an upside down neck because of a long ride.

I don't honestly see how any horse with an upside down neck can be considered having good self carriage. The muscles reflect how a horse carries himself. If his lower neck is developed and topline is not, he can not have good self carriage.

When an exercise is done properly, the correct muscles develop. When done improperly, wrong muscles develop.

The muscling of anything-horse or human reflects how the body is being used-whether properly or not.

Maybe horses are moving faster and longer, but at WHAT cost? It is biomechanically impossible for a horse to carry a rider with an incorrect posture, for miles on end and NOT have some impact that is negative.

Something will give-it may be the back, the hocks, stifles, hooves...but something WILL give.

Think about it in human terms-you don't see poorly muscled gymnasts do well, or flabby marathon runners. They may not be BULKY like football players but the muscles will be in the correct place.

AND almost ALL successful human athletes cross train...using weights or different activities to help develop all kinds of muscles and cardio and flexibility.

The same should be done with equine athlete's.

I just can't imagine if more time was spent helping a horse to develop correct posture would not benefit these horses in marathon runs.

[BornToRide]

So much for bloody nubbins, eh - needing to be trimmed every 2 weeks ;)

[LMH]

OH I forgot to mention AND ALL of this can be seen in the hooves.

A horse traveling on his forehand can develop run forward toes and heels. Teach him to carry himself better and the hooves look better.

In the photos, the hooves do look like they can handle a shorter toe-my first question is did they 'forge' themselves like this because the times spent traveling down the 100 miles was time spent on the forehand, with hollow back or high head?

I am not saying yes or no-but these are the questions *I* ask when I see pictures of body and hooves.

It is all connected.

[BornToRide]

Some horses have a tendency to be upside down, like many Arabs for example. Riding such a horse without developing better self carriage can lead to premature back problems and the energy will not be transfered as efficiently from the back to the front, plus it gets them stuck in shoulders and makes it more difficult to lighten the forehand.

If you have a horse who objects to belly lifts - you have a horse disliking using his abs properly and that is generally a sign of wnating to be upside down.

[saratoga]

I do mainly endurance these days although I also enjoy eventing, dressage and jumpers. I agree there are a number of endurance riders who are pretty terrible riders- have never had lessons, are unbalanced, just jump on and go. Especially among some of the people who race because they literally only want to go as fast as possible and I think that lends itself to the horses pulling and bracing on them in the beginning and then later on when the horse gets fatigured, they just travel along strung out.

I missed the pictures, but my endurance horse doesnt look like what you are describing. I dont race and my horse is in something of a frame the whole time. Not like a 9 hour dressage test, but I always keep in mind how I am riding and he doesnt get strung out or inverted or anything like that. I always get compliments on what a nice mover he is :) I will try to find some pics :)

In defense of endurance riders though, I think that even though quite of few of them arent the best riders, I think that most do take good care of their horses. they are seldom kept in stalls and most endurance riders that I know have good knowledge of nutrition and are very interested in the subject.

BTW, I've done the ride in question in NM but not this time. Usually those trails have a lot of sand which is good for barefoot.

[LarkspurCO]

It is a valid point,but the topic is hoof pics after a race . And the mare vetted all A's during the ride.I do agree with what you wrote above. But a horse immediately after 110 mi. is not going to look the way he did before or even a few days later.This horse has very good self carriage and is a VERY efficient mover.Rainy said it very well.

A horse is not going to show muscle wastage after a 110 mile ride. I'd expect him to look tired and perhaps a bit thinner, but his conformation and overall body condition is not going to change.

"Moving efficiently" and "self-carriage" are two different things. Self-carriage is most often used to describe a horse carrying himself correctly in collection, without being held up by the rider. It's clear that the horse pictured would not be capable of that.

[LarkspurCO]

Something will give-it may be the back, the hocks, stifles, hooves...but something WILL give.


I don't know if you saw the body shot before she removed it, but there was indication of sacroiliac damage, aka hunter's bump. I suspect something already "gave."

[LarkspurCO]

Many shod horses were pulled due to stone bruises.

How many? Do you have names and photos of them as well, or is this hyperbole?

[FatPalomino]

Hey OP, on http://www.remuda-run.com/News/News.htm (the website belonging to the horse's feet and Tennesse Lane, owner of the horse's feet) it said all her horses transitioned to barefoot in the Spring of 2008.

Congrads.

It then goes on to say :
"While Pearl ended up taking 3 BC’s home from the Santa Fe Trail ride, the summer ended tragically for Sabella. On Day 2 of that ride, we stumbled, along side our teammate Josh Urschel, on a pile of volcanic rocks that were literally on the finish line. It was a terrible, never-ending fall, and when she recovered her footing, her front left suspensory ligament was torn. We were finishing in 1st place, and we were not given a completion. We will do everything in our power to rehabilitate her and bring her back to the endurance scene, but only time will tell."

Now, accidents happen all the time, but this is a strange coincidence, eh? What a shame that this girl's most accomplished horse (before going barefoot) is now only a broodmare at 11 years old.

[LarkspurCO]

Well that explains a lot -- she rides with a tie-down.

http://www.remuda-run.com/News/Spring08Photo-Large.jpg

[Auventera Two]

Hey OP, on http://www.remuda-run.com/News/News.htm (the website belonging to the horse's feet and Tennesse Lane, owner of the horse's feet) it said all her horses transitioned to barefoot in the Spring of 2008.

Congrads.

It then goes on to say :
"While Pearl ended up taking 3 BC’s home from the Santa Fe Trail ride, the summer ended tragically for Sabella. On Day 2 of that ride, we stumbled, along side our teammate Josh Urschel, on a pile of volcanic rocks that were literally on the finish line. It was a terrible, never-ending fall, and when she recovered her footing, her front left suspensory ligament was torn. We were finishing in 1st place, and we were not given a completion. We will do everything in our power to rehabilitate her and bring her back to the endurance scene, but only time will tell."

Now, accidents happen all the time. But a shame that this girl's most accomplished horse (before going barefoot) is now only a broodmare at 11 years old.

Crap happens all the time. :no: I've seen SHOD horses pulled at rides for one lameness or another. One horse was hopping on 3 legs after stepping in a hole. Horses colic and die. Horses dump their riders and run off through the woods and get injured. Any accident can happen at any time. The fact her horse stumbled and tore a suspensory doesn't necessarily have a THING to do with being barefoot.

[FatPalomino]

Conditioning at home:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/PADRONA8.jpg

Right after a 25:
http://www.hphoofcare.com/Sweetsnumber.jpg


I get tons of compliments on her.

And you should. I bet she'd be George Morris's pick for best conditioning. The care you give her is easy to see in her glistening coat and kind, happy expression.

[FatPalomino]

The fact her horse stumbled and tore a suspensory doesn't necessarily have a THING to do with being barefoot.

Really? Long toes and improper conditioning don't cause stumbling? Well, call me a cow and tip me right over then.

You better pull your pants back up because your ass is showing.

Why were you looking?

[Auventera Two]

Why were you looking?

I apologize, that comment was not nice and I deleted it. It's been a rough day - and it's only noon! :sadsmile:

Ok, I see your point about long toes and improper conditioning. I thought you meant ONLY because the horse was barefoot, she stumbled. Yes, you're right, long toes and bad conditioning are asking for serious trouble. I misunderstund your post. Sorry again.

Sheesh, I need to just have a beer and go to bed! LOL

[LarkspurCO]

A2, I was about to ask you to post pictures of your horse. I've noticed her before and knew you did endurance riding and remembered how nice and well-conditioned she looks in your photos.

You don't ride her in a "round" dressage "frame" for miles on end, do you? I didn't think so.;)

[rainechyldes]

I agree that I've seen some less then stellar riders in endurance. There is in any sport that 'component' of riders who don't care about their skill levels, or their horse, they might as well be riding a moto cross race for all the thought they put into it.

Same can be said for ANY equine discipline no? (Not that I'm proud that that segment of population exists in any equine sport)

When it comes to the majority of endurance riders, yes they do tend to be interested in things like nutrition and gasp - training.:)

My own family has an example of a self taught rider (sorry dad!) chair seat - but he does know how to post!
He's never had a lesson in his life, and has ridden endurance for 20 odd years, and been quite sucessful. On the other hand, he also has a daughter (me) who gets on his horse quite regularly and schools him - otherwise yep - he's like riding a motobike, stiff and leans arounds dem corners!

We specifically buy him a short backed horse, because his riding style is not complimentary to a long backed/loined animal Dad is 64 this year, I doubt I'll ever get him to a lesson, so I concentrate on his horse.

However all that said - my dad is also exceptional at horsemanship. His horses always finish with As as a rule and look good throughout the ride weekend even on multi days - so go figure. This self taught rider had one horse who lasted him almost 16 years in competition before we retired him - so another- go figure. In 20 years of comptetition - with less then stellar skills - he's only on his second horse.

Do you want to ride a horse in frame for 100 miles - You could. But.. would I want to.
No- definitely not.
It wastes way way to much energy on the horses part.

The goal is to develop a good /habitual self carriage, so the horse isn't hollow- but you aren't spending 9 hours working on your dressage as opposed to running the race (does that make sense? )

I prefer a slightly strung out profile when doing distance. Remember also MOST endurance horses work in a very big extended trot for mile and miles - rather then collection types works. So I find even horse I've had for years, who do arena work develop a 'rangy ' look muscle wise.

when I'm considering an endurance horse - I do tend to look at horses with a strong natural topline as a consdieration. The appy I posted last page in fact isn't the 'best' of my bunch. His loin is a bit weaker then I like - so he is subjected to much flat work. However he's extremely fast , very intelligent,has an amazing extended trot, and holds up very well metabolically - so he made 'my' endurance cut.

and most endurance horse are lean during competition season, but you should still be able to see correct muscling, if you look closely enough for the most part.

[decorum]

A2, your horse is gorgeous! Your excellent care is obvious.

Ann Szolas

[rainechyldes]

I do wish more endurance riders would care about their public image. BUT - let's be fair here. The most miles I've ridden on my horse was 40. At the end of 50 miles of sweating and hard work, she will look tired and dirty, and thinner than at the start line. That's just part of the sport. So you have to keep in mind the footing, the temperature, the mileage, etc. before you criticize too harshly.

heh - You don't want to know what I look like after 50 + miles. My horse is the least scary part of the package coming in to final vet check:)!! All I can say is thank god they don't vet out the riders - my trot would cause hysterical laughter:)

[George Myers]

Interesting discussion.

All horse training is about pushing the horse's natural abilities to the limit - and often beyond. 'Self carriage' is not an absolute - it's the ability of the horse to happily maintain its balance at whatever pace / outline is being asked of it.

In dressage, at the foundation levels, self carriage in 'working' paces - is not very different from a natural frame - where the 'suspension bridge' is in perfect balance ie the nuchal ligament system is able to carry the bulk of the horse's (and rider's) weight - allowing the skeletal muscle to do its job - which is not to carry static load.

Through progressively developing certain aspects of the horse's musculature, self carriage in what are essentially elements of display posture, can be maintained for unnatural periods of time.

At its highest levels, dressage involves a grossly unnatural flexion of the neck (other than in the extended walk) to the extent that, unless the muscles are highly conditioned, the resulting loss of freedom to breathe results very quickly in oxygen debt and musle pain - why many poorly conditioned dressage horses panic.

To try to impose this on a horse for hours would be, as has been said, an act of stupidity and cruelty - and is why tie downs should be banned - along with a whole lot of other gadgets :)

It's stating the obvious that the muscular 'top line' and rounded outline so beloved of dressage riders and show jumpers is wholly inappropriate in an endurance horse, eventer or race horse - although elements of dressage training can be helpful in building up desirable muscle.

It it seems to me that the most important things in building and maintaining muscle for the endurance horse are: diet, healthy feet, tack that doesn't cause pain and which allows the rider to stay in balance and not interfere with the horse's breathing. The longer the distance the horse has to cover and / or the greater the speed the more vital the free flow of air is.

Efficient breathing requires the horse to be able to close its mouth and stretch its neck out. Being held in an outline, having the rider hauling on the bit so the horse opens the mouth to try to escape the pressure / pain - invariably causes oxygen deprivation - and it doesn't need spelling out what the consequences of that are to all aspects of health - and the first tissues to be damaged are the muscles.

An upside down neck, weak back and quarter muscles are all signs that the horse is working consistently in a hollow frame - ie one that is completely different from the natural frame

As has been already been said, an unbalanced frame invariably affects the feet - and it doesn't take long for a series of intersecting vicious circles to develop - all of which reduce performance and longevity.

[LarkspurCO]

No, but I don't ride her upside down either. I don't use a martingale, I don't pull on her face, and I try not to let her hind end run out behind her. Endurance horses are not dressage horses, and they shouldn't have to look like it.

Yes, well, I was being facetious about riding for hours in a round frame, but I think you knew that. If an endurance horse looked like a dressage horse I'd think something were seriously amiss.

The proper conditioning of your mare for her job really shows.

[LMH]

AT your horse GLEAMS...

So now I must ask

what is the diet on that lovely one?

pasture? hay?

deworming program?

I know the hoof program ;)

Just curious. I like to build a little data base in my head of these things :)

[AZ Native]

Really? Long toes and improper conditioning don't cause stumbling?

You are surely right . The photos really show a horse with long toes. The all A's from the vets were a sign as well of the improper conditioning.
The horse that stumbled is a national top 10 BC, obviously the result of long toes and poor conditioning.:lol:I've no doubt that if she'd only stayed in iron that she would have not stumbled and would still be competing today.
And for those saying the toes are long, look where the white line is,please.

[Auventera Two]

<<<snip>>>

Just curious. I like to build a little data base in my head of these things :)

:lol: Well thank you kindly but I do think a lot of it is genetics. She's dewormed every 3 months with rotated drugs. Vaccinated for everything imaginable because I haul her so much. I wish I didn't have to do that because I don't like so many vaccines but I don't think it's safe to NOT do it. :(

Her hay during the day (when she's out with the other mares) is a mixed grass type, then at night in her stall she eats about 6 big heavy flakes of 3rd crop alfalfa. This comes out to around 20 pounds or so. In the summer it's just run of the mill pasture grass all day - 10 acres, no watering or fertilizing, very sandy soil that not much grows on it but there is a considerable amount of wild alfalfa and clover that grows in it. I still bring her into the barn for a few hours to eat a couple flakes of alfalfa and her beet pulp mix.

So the beet pulp mix is soaked beet pulp and alfalfa cubes, plus 2 pounds of a grain mix I make myself - it's a 1/1/1 ration of Wellsolve L/S, BOSS, and whole Oats. When it's all mixed together, it fills a 5 gallon feed bucket about 3/4 of the way full.

In the winter I put 1/2 oz. of loose salt in the mix, and she drinks a full 5 gallon bucket of water every night.

Supplements: 4 oz Equishine winter, and 8 oz Equishine summer (when she's working. (I just switched it out for Accel though because it has a complete amino acid profile, as well as probiotics.) She gets 1/4 cup raspberry leaves, 1 ounce of Pro-CMC for the ulcer prevention business, and 15 grams ProBios. 10,000 mg MSM. Ocassionally Ulcergard.

Then when she's doing a long conditioning ride, or competing in an LD, she gets Nutrena XTN mixed with soaked beet pulp - as much as she'll eat. This horse is a very hard keeper and burns off everything she eats. She gets chopped carrots (won't eat apples) - as many as she'll eat.

Her hoof program was - are you ready for this - I trimmed her a whopping TWICE last year. :eek: I rode her so much and she moves so much in the pasture that I didn't have to trim. And the last time I trimmed her I did not touch frogs or bars at all. So it's been a whole year since I touched those. Obviously haven't touched sole. Her "trim" took about 10 minutes and it consisted of bringing heels back a bit and shortening the toe some. :lol:

And with that I better go because she's standing in her stall waiting for her dinner and she won't be happy if it's late!

P.S. - I forgot - she wears a Rambo fly sheet with neck cover all summer that helps keep her coat dark.

[rcloisonne]

I get tons of compliments on her. At the vet's office they said she was the nicest put together Arab they'd seen in a long time. And her personality is every bit as beautiful and her body.
Your mare is gorgeous! I don't think anyone would argue that. You've done a very nice job with her. She's a lucky horse. :yes:

[J.D.]

Thanks! Here is a link to those, hope it works ! It does and better quality , taken immediately after the ride !
http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/Pearl?authkey=bRpk95Mjh2o#

I have a problem with the LF lateral shot. Blow out at hairline. Hemmorage and black.

I would consider the horse "Off" in that particular time, per the pic. It would not pass F.E.I. exit exam if that is a goal.:)

[JB]

I don't know if you saw the body shot before she removed it, but there was indication of sacroiliac damage, aka hunter's bump. I suspect something already "gave."
That was exactly my point. I really am not slamming the horse of this thread, but it just happens to have the look that I find terrible, no matter the discipline, so is the topic starter of this offshoot. I'd find it hard to believe if someone told me the horse had no skeletal or muscular issues. People call a horse who doesn't head- or hip bob "sound", but there is SO much more to soundness than that.

Here's pictures of my endurance horse:

Absolutely beautiful! THIS is what I'm talking about - someone who conditions for endurance, but also who *obviously* spends some time doing " proper" riding to build the proper supporting muscles the horse needs to stay sound for a long, long time. This is my point exactly :yes:

Really? Long toes and improper conditioning don't cause stumbling? Well, call me a cow and tip me right over then.

Uhhh, this was in response to AT saying
The fact her horse stumbled and tore a suspensory doesn't necessarily have a THING to do with being barefoot.
Your comment makes NO sense :confused: The point was about *barefoot* having nothing to do with stumbling and tearing things. Guess what, a horse can be SHOD and have long toes and improper conditioning ;)

No, but I don't ride her upside down either. I don't use a martingale, I don't pull on her face, and I try not to let her hind end run out behind her. Endurance horses are not dressage horses, and they shouldn't have to look like it. But I do longe her in side reins, and do long lining. I also take dressage lessons. I want her to last for many years so I want to develop the correct muscling throughout her body.
Exactly. Even long distance human runners work on core muscles and some weight lifting in order to maximize their OVERALL fitness without sacrificing a lean body. The 2 should not be inherently separate issues.

But trying to ride a horse from haunch to bit for 50 or 100 miles would be such a waste of energy, not to mention it would be extremely frustrating to the horse. Dressage horses are ridden roughly 45 minutes to 1 hour "in a frame." To do that to an endurance horse for 8 to 24 hours would be cruel. Even the 3 1/2 hours it takes to do a short distance ride would be cruel.
Agree, and I did make the point to say that I wouldn't expect a distance horse to be ridden "in a frame" for an entire 10 hour ride. But the more a horse is taught (hopefully as a SOLID foundation before distance work is started) to properly carry himself, build a solid foundation of muscular strength, then he is more likely to not totally invert on his less strict distance training rides, and when he DOES get tired, he'll have a base of fitness to help him not injure himself.

[Auventera Two]

I really didn't want to turn this into a "me me me" thread so I am really sorry for that. :o I just wanted to show that a lot of endurance horses are very pretty animals that are well cared for. There are a large number of horses and riders that I really admire.

As for the feet in the original post, honestly, if those feet were on my horse, I wouldn't attempt a 50 mile ride without boots. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk. :( Just serious. The old abscess, the rings, long toes. I would be VERY concerned if that were my horse's feet. It's wonderful that the horse did it but honestly I'd have never guessed it from looking at the pics.

My horse goes barefoot a lot too, and some in boots: http://www.hphoofcare.com/rf.jpg
http://www.hphoofcare.com/sconcavity.jpg
http://www.hphoofcare.com/sweetshinds.jpg
http://www.hphoofcare.com/hindafter35.jpg (its not laid over bar, it's hard packed mud.)

[LMH]

Well AT you just blew the doors off everything I would have thought on nutrition.

I think your horse just proved actually working for a living does more than anything in a feed container could ever do.

[Auventera Two]

LOL :lol: Yeah she's pretty active http://www.hphoofcare.com/athletic.jpg

[JB]

LOL :lol: Yeah she's pretty active http://www.hphoofcare.com/athletic.jpg

I have loved that picture since I first saw it however long ago it's been!

[Auventera Two]

I think it was from June, 2007. I honestly thought I was going DOWN but I had to snap that picture first. :lol: That is NOT zoomed in. That was up close and personal. :lol: She makes you think she's mowing you over, then spares you at the last possible nanosecond. It's like a hobby of hers. When I'm putting out hay she'll canter "right" past me, close enough to make 12 straws go flying.

[grayarabpony]

Well AT you just blew the doors off everything I would have thought on nutrition.



Why, exactly? :)

[LarkspurCO]

Thanks! Here is a link to those, hope it works ! It does and better quality , taken immediately after the ride !
http://picasaweb.google.com/lynn.stpeter/Pearl?authkey=bRpk95Mjh2o#


I have a problem with the LF lateral shot. Blow out at hairline. Hemmorage and black.

I would consider the horse "Off" in that particular time, per the pic. It would not pass F.E.I. exit exam if that is a goal.:)

Oh boy. I missed this second set of photos (me and my ADHD disorder). How long ago did the horse blow this abscess? Six or eight weeks?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6p-_XM3Iw3E/SYNnsqctw7I/AAAAAAAAAfg/YgqCTS0lwVc/s640/hooves%20018.jpg

Is this bruising around the edge of the sole?
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6p-_XM3Iw3E/SYNnlq4czwI/AAAAAAAAAgE/4A0tVtFQZEc/s512/pearl%201.jpg

And what about the deep cleft between the heel bulbs and more sole bruising here?
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6p-_XM3Iw3E/SYNnmB1E67I/AAAAAAAAAfA/fGpBDv5RdTQ/tn.jpg

[BornToRide]

Well that explains a lot -- she rides with a tie-down.

http://www.remuda-run.com/News/Spring08Photo-Large.jpg
Not in all cases it seems though!

http://www.remuda-run.com/Gallery/Trail.htm

[Dune]

I didn't think those barefoot feet looked so great at all. :confused: Maybe I need to read the whole thread, but I'm very disappointed.

[LMH]

Why, exactly? :)

Because she gets a LOT of alfalfa and the Equishine mix is nothing over the top super exciting and hyper balanced....it actually has a good bit of iron (and there is currently iron phobia in horse nutrition).

NOT being critical at ALL AT because your mare looks amazing!!

I guess alfalfa and oats and iron are not the devil after all;)

[grayarabpony]

It *is* a lot of alfalfa, but the mare has a history of ulcers and as long as the Ca/ Phosphorus ration is OK.... And it is forage. I've known so many people who've tried to fatten their TBs with 2/3rds to 3/4s of a bucket of sweet feed. No wonder TBs have a rep for being crazy.

It's true, I wouldn't feed that much alfalfa either, but my horse is just in light/ medium work right now.

[LMH]

And see even Accel freaks me out!:lol:

It is so...common! Not custom balanced and shipped in from a far away place!!

Heck I would not suggest anything to you for to help the gleam on that horse!

She is just...McGleamy!:D

[BornToRide]

I would not either - my WB could not even tolerate 1 flake alfalfa with one flake grass hay AM/PM. But some horses seem to tolerate some alfalfa just fine.

However, I would also never feed just straight alfalfa because of the potential risks associated with it.

[marta]

didn't think the feet looked all that great either.
i wish the discussion would return to the feet.
and what is all that pinkish stuff in one of the first photos? was i the only one that thought bruising?

[LarkspurCO]

didn't think the feet looked all that great either.
i wish the discussion would return to the feet.
and what is all that pinkish stuff in one of the first photos? was i the only one that thought bruising?

I asked about that out a few posts back. If the left front hoof abscessed that badly then I'd presume that's probably some sole bruising in the photos.

For comparison, here's a healthy bare white hoof with no bruising:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Shelby/shelbyLH-Feb1-09.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Shelby/shelbyLH2-Feb1-09.jpg

And here's a bruised up bare white hoof:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/hfournier/Desert%20Spark/DesiLH-Feb1-09.jpg

[rainechyldes]

I have a problem with the LF lateral shot. Blow out at hairline. Hemmorage and black.

I would consider the horse "Off" in that particular time, per the pic. It would not pass F.E.I. exit exam if that is a goal.:)


Concerning this, I have a question..sortof.. (posing in in the context of what the endurance vet looks at)

The premise is that the horse must be presented as fit to continue. Showing no lameness (for a best condition as an example) So from an endurance vet standpoint - if the horse trotted out sound during checks and is not footsore - then it's considered 'fine' and gets a completion and whatever

FEI regulations states: During this period, the horse may be inspected more than once if the
Veterinary Commission so decides. However, before the scheduled
presentation time has elapsed, the horse must demonstrate its fitness to
continue which is assessed upon three criteria: pulse recovery, metabolic
stability and gait. - It does note the hoof testers (may be used) but it is optional. etc. etc.

To be honest in my experience - I tend to be quite surprised when a vet does pick up a horse's feet. Quite normally they won't do so(unless there's an obvious reason, or I ask them to look at something. ) - especially the more experienced vets who run horses through quite quickly. My quick guess - is because the hair covers it slightly, the vet possibly didn't even see the blowout?

So farrier opinion?

A/ How old do you think the abcess blowout looks to be?
B/ If the horse is obviously sound - would you still 'lay it off work' in the condition it's showing atm? ( I'm not getting the definition of OFF in the context that you are using it here--- I've been snowboarding all day - so it's also possible my brain is frozen!)


I assumed perhaps incorrectly, that it was a a blowout that obviously occurred quite a time point before the ride.

Also - as a side note. I've never dealt personally with an abcess. I've been pretty lucky - but I've had friends who've had a horse both shod and unshod develop them. Never seems to make a difference really in shoes or not. I've formed the opinion, perhaps incorrectly that a horse can be prone to developing them either with/without being shod.. yes> no?

[J.D.]

Concerning this, I have a question..sortof.. (posing in in the context of what the endurance vet looks at)

The premise is that the horse must be presented as fit to continue. Showing no lameness (for a best condition as an example) So from an endurance vet standpoint - if the horse trotted out sound during checks and is not footsore - then it's considered 'fine' and gets a completion and whatever

FEI regulations states: During this period, the horse may be inspected more than once if the
Veterinary Commission so decides. However, before the scheduled
presentation time has elapsed, the horse must demonstrate its fitness to
continue which is assessed upon three criteria: pulse recovery, metabolic
stability and gait. - It does note the hoof testers (may be used) but it is optional. etc. etc.

To be honest in my experience - I tend to be quite surprised when a vet does pick up a horse's feet. Quite normally they won't do so(unless there's an obvious reason, or I ask them to look at something. ) - especially the more experienced vets who run horses through quite quickly. My quick guess - is because the hair covers it slightly, the vet possibly didn't even see the blowout?

So farrier opinion?

A/ How old do you think the abcess blowout looks to be?
B/ If the horse is obviously sound - would you still 'lay it off work' in the condition it's showing atm? ( I'm not getting the definition of OFF in the context that you are using it here--- I've been snowboarding all day - so it's also possible my brain is frozen!)


I assumed perhaps incorrectly, that it was a a blowout that obviously occurred quite a time point before the ride.

Been to many International F.E. I. events?

Horse wouldn't Pass. Stated goal is/was 2010 Lexington:confused:

[rainechyldes]

Been to many International F.E. I. events?

Horse wouldn't Pass. Stated goal is/was 2010 Lexington:confused:

sigh - I was asking so I could learn.. jesus murphy on a crutch.

I've been to 3 events as a competitor (in canada only - FEI ) , and going by the rules I knew & what I've experienced- that's all. Don't think I stated ANYWHERE that I was an expert on vetting.. - haven't looked to much yet at the changes for 2010 and/if there are any. - mainly because I won't be doing anything for a few year in that regard. I have the kidlets riding with me starting this season.

I was asking your opinion because I like to learn more (did you even read the part were I was asking your opinion and such or was it just more fun to jump on me as if I'm a moron? - and I don't think I was being rude about it at all. Never mind, I'll ask my farrier when he comes next week. Thanks anyway :/

[J.D.]

sigh - I was asking so I could learn.. jesus murphy on a crutch.

I've been to 3 events as a competitor (in canada only - FEI ) , and going by the rules I knew - haven't looked to much yet at the changes for 2010 and/if there are any. - mainly because I won't be doing anything for a few year in that regard. I have the kidlets riding with me starting this season.

I was asking your opinion because I like to learn more (did you even read the part were I was asking your opinion and such or was it just more fun to jump on me as if I'm a moron? - and I don't think I was being rude about it at all. Never mind, I'll ask my farrier when he comes next week. Thanks anyway :/

Never said ya was rude; 3 events? Great!

Stated goals were Lexington from the OP.


Get a beer and relax~~~ F.E.I. is tough as far as vetting through!

Have ya ducks in order!:yes::cool:

[rainechyldes]

raine - an abscess doesn't appear to care whether a hoof is shod and unshod -- it can develop in either from a mirade of causes.

thanks - that what I've always thought myself - but was suddenly wondering -since I've never dealt with one personally. :)

[Auventera Two]

To be honest in my experience - I tend to be quite surprised when a vet does pick up a horse's feet. Quite normally they won't do so(unless there's an obvious reason, or I ask them to look at something. ) -

I have had endurance vets pick up my mare's feet twice (two different vets.) I assumed it was because we were barefoot, and both times was for BC judging.

[Auventera Two]

But this horse wasn't in an FEI event. It competed in an AERC sanctioned ride. It was sound, and remained sound through the final vet check. So any concern over a healed abscess that isn't affecting soundness is moot -- to this ride and this discussion.

My mare did a 35 with an active abscess at the hairline, and she vetted through fine. She got stepped on, which caused some swelling and bruising to the coronary band, which then grew down into a big bump on the hoof wall. At home, I thought the horse was fine. 100% sound. It never blew out or anything, it was just a bump that grew down.

After 3 hours on the trailer, she came off a "tad stiff" but wasn't lame. Two vets thoroughly inspected the injury, used hoof testers on the sole, and said she was just "barely" a Grade 1. With her hoof boots and pads on, they could detect no lameness. (And boot didn't touch the coronary band) They told me it was fine to ride, but that they would check her thoroughly at the next check. If she was showing Grade 1 with the boots on, then I'd have to pull. But she never showed anything with the boots on.

So if this horse was sound on the foot, I can't see a reason why the horse would be pulled. If it had been noticed, it might have been noted on the vet card. My mare sustained a cut about 2" long to her left hip in the trailer enroute to a ride, and the vet noted that on the card.

So personally I didn't find the old abscess in the hoof wall to be a red flag. What I did not like was the growth rings and toes that look too long. And what looks like bruising also.

[saratoga]

I know the vet who always vets this ride- he is a "veteran" and just does a really quick exam. I'm sure he wouldnt pick up feet or do an inspection like that, and endurance rides really are "fit to continue"- a horse just can't be very obviously lame and a vet will point out a issue, but the horse pretty much has to be lame-lame to be pulled. I dont know about FEI, never did that.

My endurance horse is barefoot but I boot him for rides. This past year, I presented him to this vet for the pre-ride check, without the boots- the ground was super hard and a little rocky and my horse was sound but the vet pointed out that he was a little foot-sore and told me, "You aren't riding him barefoot, are you??" I said no and felt sheepish- I could tell that the vet wasnt necessarily impressed with the whole barefoot thing. We did the 50 the next day and my horse was awesome during the vetting and the whole ride, with the boots on of course. So that vet is looking out for barefoot people for sure, I bet if that horse was foot sore, he would have pointed it out.

[FatPalomino]

The all A's from the vets were a sign as well of the improper conditioning.


Oh, wait, so *NOW* vets are qualified to speak of lameness and feet????

ROTFLMAO. :lol:

You have about 10 valid questions asked about the bruising and general condition of the horse's feet.
Not to mention the other very valid questions about the horse to which those feet belong.

Maybe it'd be better to just delete the pictures of the horse's feet you don't want people to see, either?? :rolleyes:

Larkspur, still interested in a race of the fat shod horses?

[LarkspurCO]

Larkspur, still interested in a race of the fat shod horses?

I'm in!!!

[rainechyldes]

I have had endurance vets pick up my mare's feet twice (two different vets.) I assumed it was because we were barefoot, and both times was for BC judging.

Really? huh - I rarely see it up here and we use American vets quite a bit at rides, since we are so close to the border. The main one I ever remember I have at rides is with J. Bryant Jr. (whom I've known for years) he never picks up my horses feet, but never fails to make a barefoot comment and then is amused by my horses 'rock skipping' habits in trot out.
I'm trying to remember if I've experienced it more south of the border when I've gone down to ride - but I really don't recall :/ ( my memory is awesome but really short!:)

Most the other vets we use never even say anything to me about it. - but as I said, we also have a fair number of barefoot horses in our club, - so maybe that's more 'it' then anything else, I dunno. I do remember having a conversation mm last year with on of our 'original' barefoot riders, his horses have been unshod for a long time - he was talking about the struggle he had to prove way back to the vets that an unshod horse could compete (he does 50s mainly) so I also have it much easier, the path was already made, so to speak I guess.

[marta]

both CTR and endurance rides.
it's unfortunate that they think that having a horse shod is better and/or safer than booted. it's also unfortunate that they think that a poorly balanced shod foot requires less scrutiny than a well balanced bare foot.

[marta]

that's a good point.
i guess i was a bit defensive about the whole thing;)

[saratoga]

Also, I think that the vets are truly looking at the horse's best interest....I think they have seen a number of sore footed barefoot horses after rides and its different than when a horse is just simply lame. It can be harder to convince a rider that a horse is sore when you cant see the head bobbing. Also, frankly some barefoot people are pretty hard headed and get all worked up about the horrors of shoes so they are hard to deal with and have gotten a bad reputation.

[FatPalomino]

Also, I think that the vets are truly looking at the horse's best interest....I think they have seen a number of sore footed barefoot horses after rides and its different than when a horse is just simply lame. It can be harder to convince a rider that a horse is sore when you cant see the head bobbing.

Also, I have seen many novices venture head first into the barefoot endeavors. Novices, which aren't experts, may have a really tricky time noticing that subtle lameness, which can quickly turn into a big deal. A vet taking an extra minute to look at the feet is, probably, only looking out for the horse and rider's best interest... trying to avoid one of those nasty, career ending falls which is really dangerous to both horse and rider.

Also, frankly some barefoot people are pretty hard headed and get all worked up about the horrors of shoes so they are hard to deal with and have gotten a bad reputation.

Perfect wording.

Don't get me wrong. My horse's that don't need shoes don't wear them. But the "one 'magical' way is the answer to everything" is not the motto I use... in vet medicine, in horses, or in life!

[matryoshka]

We are now assertively diagnosing lameness from pictures in contradiction to vets on the scene? Wow.

Let's get this straight, in addition to trimming feet and being nutrition experts, we now have to become riding instructors to make sure the horses we trim are being ridden correctly?

Sorry, I thought this thread was to show how bare feet looked after 110 miles in a specific terrain. That terrain is very different than what we have in my area, and I kind of thought that perhaps the trim is appropriate for the area in which the horse lives and works. Sheesh. I don't have that terrain here, so I don't trim like that. Doesn't make the trim shown here wrong just because it is different.

If the toes were too long, there would be dishing. I didn't notice any dishing in the toes.

The point I'm making--and feeling frustrated about--is that these feet are working for this horse at his current job. Worked fine, or it would not have been considered "fit to continue." None of us were there, so comments based on pictures that were not taken at cardinal angles are all speculation. Can't argue about the hoof rings, but sheesh, that is the owner's responsibility. How the horse is ridden is also the owner's responsibility.

Are any of you planning on going into business as a "full care facility" where you invite a horse to stay (at the owner's expense), oversee his diet, his workout, how the owner rides him, and also trimming him. Perhaps you can plan out his competition schedule too. Let me know how that works for you and what your rate of turnover is. Maybe some people enjoy having their trimmer or farrier express his opinions on every aspect of their horse's life, but I sure wouldn't.

Better yet, perhaps we should only agree to trim horses who are fed, turned out, and ridden to our approval. That way we can be sure our trims will succeed. Oh, and we should only trim horses for people who agree with us on horse slaughter, on way or the other.

Rant over.

[Auventera Two]

I don't consider multiple growth rings to be representative of a healthy hoof.

Also, I think the point people were tyring to make is that it was a little stunning to see feet that looked like this doing 50s without protection. I was a bit surprised myself. Feet healthy enough to do 50s barefoot on rock would look considerably different than this, based on my knowledge base. I don't deny the horse did it, and was sound! I'm sure he WAS! But my point was - how long can the horse maintain this? Can he do years and years of 50s shoeless/bootless with these feet? Maybe he can! And if he does, then we've all learned something.

I just have never considered deep frog sulcus and growth rings to signify healthy feet. But maybe this shows that feet don't NEED to be text book healthy in order to be able to function in high performance events???? I don't know. Just discussing. :)

[LMH]

Actually toes can be too long and forward without significant dishing. The entire hoof will capsule look shifted forward with no dish.;)

[JB]

Also, I think the point people were tyring to make is that it was a little stunning to see feet that looked like this doing 50s without protection. I was a bit surprised myself. Feet healthy enough to do 50s barefoot on rock would look considerably different than this, based on my knowledge base.
Agree. I have seen some "perfect" feet that were not sound on gravel, and I have seen feet worse than this that could trot right down a gravel road like it was memory foam. But I KNOW that the feet in the latter case ended up deteriorating in comfort until the owner was finally able to get someone to trim worth a darn.

I don't deny the horse did it, and was sound! I'm sure he WAS! But my point was - how long can the horse maintain this? Can he do years and years of 50s shoeless/bootless with these feet? Maybe he can! And if he does, then we've all learned something.
That was exactly my point a while back. There are LOTS of things that can be wrong with a horse, from feet to hocks to stifles to withers, etc, and the horse can (seemingly) be just fine for a while - a good long while sometimes. But usually, odds are, that Thing will catch up, and "suddenly" you have a lame horse.

I just have never considered deep frog sulcus and growth rings to signify healthy feet. But maybe this shows that feet don't NEED to be text book healthy in order to be able to function in high performance events???? I don't know. Just discussing. :)
It IS interesting and it's a question I ask myself a lot :confused:

[matryoshka]

The toes are longer than I'd leave them. So are the heels. But I'm near the east coast where we have clay soil with deep, sucking mud one week and dried to the hardness of concrete the next, complete with protruding rocks. My trim differs from the feet pictured. In fact, my trim varies through the season based on the ground conditions. It works for the horses in my care. Hell, my trim varies from horse to horse, depending on his conformation.

To my eye, these feet look a lot like the wild-hoof models we see. You know, from horses who are living and moving on similar terrain to the horse pictured.

I do not see dishing below the coronet. When the hoof capsule is run forward, the growth at the coronet will still follow the angle of the coffin bone, and the dish will be just below it. AZ Native did not give us a level lateral view to judge such things accurately or to evaluate the HPA. If dishing below the coronet is present, it is slight. Perhaps this hoof form works well in the environment because the horse is moving at an extended trot, and the heel works well to stop the forward motion of the foot, and the toe length works for pushing off in a deeper soil than we have in my area. I don't know if this is the case, but I'm willing to consider the possibility.

I can't even tell you how many horses I trim who are rock crunchers but don't look like they should be. Flat feet, deep center sulci (sometimes it is hard to clear up those infections, especially when it is wet), hoof rings, and all. Then there are horses with beautiful concavity and a perfect-looking hoof form who ooch and ouch over every rock. This is more information to store in my head for when a person asks, "Do you think my horse can make it barefoot?" I worry more about a horse whose feet are too small for his body mass than just about any other conformation fault. I've modified Rick's statement "It Depends" to "We'll See."

We have an opportunity here to observe an unshod foot that is working hard and doing okay for the horse. We can learn from this, ask questions, and adjust our opinions, or we can decide that because it is outside our expectations or personal experience it is going to fail. Eventually.

Because of the negativity with which these feet and this horse (and to at least one person, the owner) has been viewed here, we are not likely to get more pictures of him in a few months, or a year. Bummer. I'd love to see the progression of the horse and his feet over time. Maybe AZ Native will be willing to shoot more pics in a few months and share them with me privately.