Minis - Horses or Ponies?

[Murphy's Mom]

Last fall I got myself a miniature horse. She's cute and fuzzy and I love her. I refer to her as "my pony" (of course, I often refer to my big horses as ponies too) and this seems to really irritate those who are "in" to miniature horses. They insist that they are small horses. What exactly is the difference between a horse and a pony (besides height and attitude)? Many of the sales ads I see for minis proudly claim "Arenosa" bloodlines. From what I googled, that is a shetland pony bloodline so even if the mini was a horse, it's now mixed with pony. As an aside, my mini is out of the "Just" lines. Any mini people know what that means. Supposedly it's a good line but I can't find much info on it.

Just end of the work week wondering. My neighbor brought home a very large mini last night and I called it a "cute pony". That got the lecture going. :)

[Woodland]

I noticed it to. But I was told they have different genetics than Shetlands - but I do not see how that is possible:confused: I do not breed them or show them. They are pet therapy animals and companions here. But a but of truth would be refreshing!

[littleum]

They're ponies. Ponies, ponies, ponies. ;) Most of us will agree they're ponies.

There was a time about 20 years ago where many people considered it insulting to refer to a Miniature as a "pony" (implying they were short, dumpy, hairy Thewell beasts, which many were at that time) There was also a HUGE insult to say a Miniature had pony breeding. Oh gosh, that was BAD. My mentor got a stallion in a trade who was gorgeous and turned out 1/4 Shetland (dam was 1/2 Shetland Gold Melody Boy daughter) and they never mentioned that side of the pedigree. It wasn't until a few years later that interest in the GMB bloodline started to perk up as people suddenly realized Rowdy had been at least 1/2 Shetland, Roan Ranger was a GMB son (and had just been credited with DNA testing to siring NFC's SugarBoy), Buckeroo was a GMB grandson as was Sid's Rebel and wasn't that Flaby's Supreme horse somewhat Shetland bred too? It was kind of an interesting thing to watch, given I had always secretly wanted to blend small Shetlands with Miniatures.

Wasn't long after people started to wake up to the influence of GMB that Michigan's Silver Penny got hardshipped into AMHR and people REALLY got interested in Sheltands crawling around the Minature gene pool. Now it's the "Cool" thing. LOL.

They do not have "different" genetics then Shetlands. I don't know if that means pedigrees or DNA, but either way, total crap. Miniatures are just short ponies. Some might actually be ASPC registered shetlands too. ;)

My personal opinion is Miniatures were bred down from Shetland stock but no records were actually kept on the "midget ponies novelty"

Miniatures do have some pecularities all their own- bute toxicity can be a real problem, Quest is very dangerous, hyperlimia ("fatty liver" disease) is common and some other things. Our most serious and sadly least understood problem is dwarfism.

The "Just" lines were an old, old bloodlines from back in the day (going back 30 years now) The Just program produced a couple of winners back then (I think...I can't remember any names) and I can't think of any Just bloodlines that have been of any real concerntrated interest in the past 20 years (maybe I'm drawing a blank) Just one of those "names from the past" sort of things, like Stouts, Ayers, Ohio and Sligo.

[BuddyRoo]

Okay, now I'm super confused because I was told (though I have zero research to back this up and really don't even care THAT much lol) that true minis are miniature HORSES and are genetically (and somewhat structurally) different from ponies. Hence the reason that even if they're the size of a small shetland (which would be bigger than "breed standard") they shouldn't be ridden because they're not designed to carry weight like the true ponies are.

But then....there's also the thing about shetlands having been intermixed and blah blah so you've got some of these minis running around that are bigger and really are technically "ponies".

Un-confuse me. :)

[Murphy's Mom]

Thanks for all the great info littleum! When I call Mocha a pony, it's a compliment. I love ponies!

[li'l bit]

I love ponies too. When I brought my Hackney pony home I frequented a certain bulletin board just to learn more about caring for the smaller equine.
I always got a Hoot out of how so many mini breeders/owners took offense to their "horses" being called ponies by regular, everyday people. ;)

The one thing I have always wondered about is that I have been told by an equine dental technician and also have read it here and there, that even though they have those tiny heads, they have a full set of teeth that are the same size as an average horse. I guess this can cause a myriad of dental problems for them. When I look at my 15.2 hh Saddlebred's teeth, I wonder how that can be. ??!!??

What do your mini's teeth look like? Just curious. :) Are some worse than others, or do they all have these full sized teeth?

[Murphy's Mom]

Mocha's teeth are definitely smaller than Murphy's teeth (he's 15.3+ hands) but I wouldn't call them tiny. Of course, Murphy's teeth are much smaller than my warmblood's teeth and she is "tiny" at only 16.0+ hands. I've got caps from both Murphy and the warmblood and there is a big difference in size.

[Woodland]

What about Falabella blood?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falabella_(horse)

Teeth? I never asked! I just haul them to the Equine surgical clinic to get them done as my horthadontist does not do minis and small ponies.

[equineartworks]

Personally I would rather call Dumplin' a pony than a miniature horse. Why? Because the ponies are just beyond cute! Those show miniatures...have you seen some of those pics? They have these demonic looking eyes and deformed looking heads...shudder....

Give me my rumply dumply bumply Dumplin'. I call him my tiny pony man and he loves it so that is all I need :D

[li'l bit]

Personally I would rather call Dumplin' a pony than a miniature horse. Why? Because the ponies are just beyond cute! Those show miniatures...have you seen some of those pics? They have these demonic looking eyes and deformed looking heads...shudder....

Give me my rumply dumply bumply Dumplin'. I call him my tiny pony man and he loves it so that is all I need :D

DITTO!!:)

[equineartworks]

Aren't some of them freaky? lol!

[littleum]

Miniature teeth are smaller then full sized horse teeth, but are still too proportinaly (sp?) big for their jaws. Lots of problems with hooks in the back, caps, crowding ect. Add into this that an offset bite is considered a disqualifying flaw, so breeders/owners go to great lengths to care for teeth! These two things really combine so that the general knowledge level of equine dentistry is quite high with the community.

Falabellas are a seperate breed entirely. Generally when you say "Miniature Horse" you are talking about the American Miniature Horse, which most folks believe were bred down from Shetlands as kind of a novelty midget pony concept (this is disputed though) Falabella origins are well documented and they keep an entirely seperate studbook.

Back in the very early 1990s there was a brief "fad" to cross Falabellas with Miniatures. At the time appaloosa coat patterns were hot hot hot (did I say HOT?) and rare within Miniatures, especially with size control (many Appy lines grew oversized) Falabellas came in small spotted sizes. Some were imported up from Argentina for big $$$$ and interbred with Miniatures. AMHA at the time would accept Falabella book papers and issue AMHA papers.

It wasn't a terribly long lived experiment and there is very little Falabella blood within our breed today, and no current importing activity. This is just my opinion, but most of the Falabellas I've seen are pretty damn dumpy and I think that's what killed off the experiment pretty quick- spots or not.

Not that there weren't a few nice Falabellas (Chianti in the 1980s was stunning, but he was 34" if he was an inch) and I have seen a couple of really nice Falabella-blood Miniatures. But by and large most Miniature programs don't use Falabella blood, I haven't heard of any new imports for at least 10 years and I think it's fair to say that the goals of the Falabella program are different from the goals of most Miniature breeders.

There are also 2 other strains of "Miniature" horse found in UK (Bred down from Shetlands) and Aussie/NZ (called "native") These are different strains, the vast majority are very "Thewell" in their look (more traditional pony) Many Aussie/NZ breeders have been importing American stock for the past 25 years or so, an increasing # of UK/European breeders have starting bringing over American stock.

I am not aware of any stock coming across the ponds to us here (there have been a few cases of horses being exported then brought back), but I've seen a couple of just really stunning "native breds" from down under that I wouldn't mind having.

[Woodland]

One of my mini's is a 27" coming 3 yr old black leopard appy. His conformation is really pretty good - UNTIL you get to his rather odd head. His head has a bizarrely prominent forehead extreme dish and tiny muzzle. Dwarfism or bad head? or Both? His ability to contribute to the gene pool is going to end on February 19th when he heads to U of I for denutting ;) He has never been bred and is not studdy at all. I was just hoping both testes would descend so the vet would not have to go up after it! Because he is so very small my vet and I decided he should go to U of I for his own protection from complications.

[littleum]

One of my mini's is a 27" coming 3 yr old black leopard appy. His conformation is really pretty good - UNTIL you get to his rather odd head. His head has a bizarrely prominent forehead extreme dish and tiny muzzle. Dwarfism or bad head? or Both? His ability to contribute to the gene pool is going to end on February 19th when he heads to U of I for denutting ;) He has never been bred and is not studdy at all. I was just hoping both testes would descend so the vet would not have to go up after it! Because he is so very small my vet and I decided he should go to U of I for his own protection from complications.

Can you post a picture?

[Woodland]

Can you post a picture?

OK - I will try to link one up within 24 hrs. I have to figure out how - I am NOT very good at pictures/posting/scanning/working a digital camera - it's pretty sad! He is soooo cute!!!! Even with the homely head - :lol:

[tangledweb]

I've seen a couple of just really stunning "native breds" from down under that I wouldn't mind having.

If somebody is trying to sell you a "native" horse from Australia or New Zealand, it had better have a pouch.

[lcw579]

Okay, now I'm super confused because I was told (though I have zero research to back this up and really don't even care THAT much lol) that true minis are miniature HORSES and are genetically (and somewhat structurally) different from ponies. Hence the reason that even if they're the size of a small shetland (which would be bigger than "breed standard") they shouldn't be ridden because they're not designed to carry weight like the true ponies are.

<snip>

Un-confuse me. :)

BuddyRoo - that is the same thing I remember hearing ages ago when minis first became popular that they were most definitely not ponies.

So is there a genetic difference or is it size only that makes a mini?

[greysandbays]

According to a mini breeder I was acquainted with, the big selling point of miniatures was that they "had no 'pony' blood", that they were bred down from full-size horses. Which was nothing but pure marketing propaganda, and this breeder even said so (at least to people who weren't prospective customers). Since lack of size was the main breed characteristic, people were most definitely going to take shortcuts. And the shortest shortcut of all would be to breed from something already small to begin with.

PS why is Firefox being such a ass today? It won't let me go back in insert anything anywhere except when I edit.

[willowoodstables]

Ok, someone way back when struck gold with the marketing of miniature HORSE. They are ALL pony bred somewhere. The rage now of course is a leggier horse (much nicer to drive than a short legged one), neckier, all round better conformation type horses. I have them, and Hackneys and they are both ponies in my book. The mini is my mini..the hackney is the pony but both are ponies. Here is a picture of my mini, which of course the first show he went to folks told me he was too big (OMG puleese, he's under the limit and he drives gorgeous, not a short bobbing step thank you). But really he is a pony IMHO
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/willowoodstables/100_6297.jpg
Kim

[littleum]

Here is a picture of my mini, which of course the first show he went to folks told me he was too big (OMG puleese, he's under the limit and he drives gorgeous, not a short bobbing step thank you). But really he is a pony IMHO
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/willowoodstables/100_6297.jpg
Kim

Oh so handsome and what a pretty face. I wouldn't mind having him. If you get tired of him.... ;)

[Jetiki]

There still are people that get twitchy over pony/horse thing. I don't really care I call them all ponies. The idea is for the "perfect" horse in miniature however what horse is perfect. By any other standards other that within the miniature horse section of the horse world they are by definition under 14.2h so therefore a pony. They do have their quirks and issues, but all breeds have some issue. Dwarfism is one that was perpetuated for a long time by breeding the super tiny ones. A lot of minis go back to Bond Tiny Tim and he was confirmed a dwarf. I see a lot of the "puppy' mill type breeders think small and not see the faults within the horse and some don't know what a minimal dwarf is.

I have a 34" 1/2 fallabella, with falebella blend papers and AMHR papers, he's cute, He's not keeping his action as he matures so I will probably have him gelded. He's nice enough but doesn't really have the it factor, if that makes sense.

I have an AMHR mare that is a driving fool, that is what she does best, she's a little long in the back but in harness she thinks she's 16h and can do anything. There isnt't any super popular bloodlines in her name except about 3 generations back is Stouts.

I've got a Buckaroo/rowdy bred gelding, in for driving training, nice horse but didn't need his equipment. Very high headed and can be a bit nervous at times but getting over that.

Willowwood, if you ever get tired of that cute little black and white one, let me know.

Karen

[BestHorses]

My mom gets seriously peeved when I call her minis ponies. haha They are such cute fuzzballs. Funny thing is one is over 34 inches so I love to point out that it's a pony!

I was wondering how they can say there isn't pony blood in miniature horses. How could they have bred such a small animal from a "horse" over 14.2? Even if the founding stock was not a pony breed like a Shetland, wouldn't any small "horse" under 14.2 still be considered a pony? Semantics is fun! hee hee

[Whisper]

I consider any member of Equus caballus who is 14.2 hands or less to be a pony, regardless of bloodlines. Purebred Morgans, QHs, Arabs, Andalusians, Lippizans, etc. can all be ponies, even if they don't have any traditional pony breed bloodlines. The only way a Miniature Horse can not be a pony is if its parents are both registered AMHA, but it grew to be over 14.2 hands. :lol:

[littleum]

Dwarfism is one that was perpetuated for a long time by breeding the super tiny ones. A lot of minis go back to Bond Tiny Tim and he was confirmed a dwarf.

Don't lay the blame for dwarfism only at the feet of CM Bond. While he did use Bond Tiny Tim, and a couple of other very small and very questionable stallions, he also gave us horses like Bond Crusader, Bond Snippet, Bond Peppy Power, Bond Chauncy, Bond Cracker Crumble C, Bond A Toy 4 U C, Martin's Buster Bond, Bond Boozer and Bond Little Lucy B.

Other breeders of yore also used dwarfs. At the time I really don't think they understood what they were dealing with- a true defect and not just poor conformation. The Komokos breeding program was very focused on size and there were some really bad questionable ones that came out of there, but also horses like Komokos Domino Amegio, Komokos Golden Dove, Komkos Little Hussler, Komkos Dark Destroyer, and Komkos Little Bimbo. Dell Teras Lord of the Isles was very, very questionable but again, you cannot discount the massive contribution JC Williams made to the breed.

It was a different time in Miniature-dom, so I don't believe it's fair to hold breeders who made an unquestionable positive mark on our breed for mistakes we only now are beginning to understand.

[Trotsky]

So, how often does dwarfism raise its ugly head among these revered lines?

The only mini show I ever went to (Florida), the champion stallion was a dwarf. I sought out the manager and asked about this. She shrugged and said "some judges just want small." I was appalled.

Some of these modern CDE minis are just astonishing! Covering ground at a clip and never breaking a sweat.

[littleum]

So, how often does dwarfism raise its ugly head among these revered lines?

The only mini show I ever went to (Florida), the champion stallion was a dwarf. I sought out the manager and asked about this. She shrugged and said "some judges just want small." I was appalled.


No one knows. Dwarfism has been an issue with Miniatures for as long as anyone can recall. But it's a very, very badly understood issue. We have at least 2 types of dwarfism and no clear pattern of inheritance. Add into that you can have very, very subtle types of dwarfism (where a horse is just a wee bit "iffy"), and dwarfism that isn't really obvious in foals and takes maturity to reveal itself... we have no tests yet.

There are cases of foals being born from many generations of totally normal parents on both sides and... dwarf. There are cases of 2 dwarf parents (irresponsibly bred, obviously) producing a totally normal foal. There is no obvious smoking gun. Yet.

Up until the last 10 years or so dwarfism was NOT discussed. Breeders did NOT discuss dwarf foals they had. Dwarf foals were often disposed of quietly and you NEVER heard about stock that produced a dwarf. Information was NOT shared. It's only been through an intense grassroots movement to finally get a hold of this problem that people are coming forward with their dwarfs, their pedigrees and sharing information. If you want the most up to date info, the person to talk to is John Eberth.

It's not like dwarfism is this rampant issue and a huge majority of our foals are born this way, but it's obviously also not a rare blue moon occurance. And as an interesting note, dwarfism exists in other breeds- there have been dwarf TBs and Arabians, and even one line of Freisians known to produce dwarfs.


As for the show, I've heard about garbage like that at unrecognized "back water" shows or "back in the day" sort of things. Was it a recognized show? (AMHA/AMHR?) How long ago was it? Reason I ask is because AMHA and AMHR revoke the papers on dwarfs, so I would be very surprised if you did indeed see a true dwarf at a recognized show in the past 15 or so years.

[Jetiki]

[QUOTE=littleum;3848868]Don't lay the blame for dwarfism only at the feet of CM Bond. While he did use Bond Tiny Tim, and a couple of other very small and very questionable stallions, he also gave us horses like Bond Crusader, Bond Snippet, Bond Peppy Power, Bond Chauncy, Bond Cracker Crumble C, Bond A Toy 4 U C, Martin's Buster Bond, Bond Boozer and Bond Little Lucy B.

I was only using that one horse as an example I was NOT saying he was the only breeder to do so, excuse me for not stating "For example" in my post. going back to lurkdom.


Karen

[Thomas_1]

The definition of pony and horse being defined not just by the height criteria. Its defined also by its breed and conformation type. At birth a pony has the same proportions as an adult. It is not a long legged animal with higher hindquarters than forehand, as are the foals of horses relative to their size. And particularly ponies have short cannon bones. So whilst the height criteria for a pony is under 14.2 hands, a connemara or norwegian fjord that is over 14.2 is still ALWAYS a pony. Likewise a shetland is always a shetland no matter how large or small it is - though the conformation height standard is just not greater than 42". Shetland have therefore always come from VERY small and up to (and sometimes over) 42"

And if a very small shetland is crossed with a welsh section A to produce a VERY small childrens pony that resembles the look of a horse that stands at 34" then its still a pony.

In the UK you would never call a pony a miniature horse.

Here a miniature horse is such as a falabella or a caspian - with proof of traceable origin, on both sides of Dam and Sire being vital to ensure they are eligible for registration

If a pony is small because there's been introduction of such as equine achondroplastic dwarfism or diastrophic dysplasia dwarfism then its a deformed, substandard pony.

I have shetland ponies and welsh section A's and some cross breeds that may fall into the category of being miniature horses in America but here they're ponies.

[Drive NJ]

Want to see REALLY scary... Some Mini drivers decided that not only were their Mini's HORSES, but they should press the issue by insisting on competing in the horse driving classes, not pony. Worse yet it was in an area of the country with a lot of warmbloods and Friesians driving so you have the teeny tinies driving around with the big guys, many times just barely up to the axle of the bigger wheeled vehicles. From the drivers I heard talk of it it was rather difficult to see them

I always found it 'interesting' that minis measure height at the last hair of the mane, not the top spot on the wither. Frequently it shaves an inch or so off the height.

That said, a lot of the CDE VSEs (minis) are very cool ponies and do their job very well. More power to them.

[poltroon]

I just think it's insecurity - people who think that ponies are somehow inferior. Or, perhaps only for children. I don't get that, because IMHO ponies are clearly superior. :D

I've been known to call my TB mare a pony.

I guess it's my inner child talking.

[goeslikestink]

i call my lot ponies becuase thats what they are
they range from 11.2 to 14.2hh at home and one of 15hhs which is classed as a horse
debs has the biger ones in her yard from 16 to 17.3hh
and a shetland is a shetland pony and can be 10.2hhs but still be a shetland
we dont call ponies mini's as i uk we have a variety of pony breeds
new forest
welsh sections b c
dales
fell
shetland
dartmoor
exmoor
welsh mountian sec A
hackney
uk and ireland
britsh spotted pony
connimara
highlands
common irish cob vareity of sizes colours and not a recognised breed type - to you a drafty

horses
are hunters
tb
hackney
shires
cleveland bays
clydesdale
suffolk punch
welsh d
british spotted horse
ireland
the irish draft

note welsh ponies and horses are shown in there natural state ie no mane to be plaited or tail

[Thomas_1]

horses are ......
hackney.......
british spotted ......

There's hackney and British Spotted ponies too

Welsh D are the largest of the native welsh native equids and categorised as a horse "type". Testament to its origins though is it's small neat pony head.

[TikiSoo]

OK, maybe technically and genetically a miniature horse is exactly that, a miniature HORSE. But if it's under 14 hands, it can be called a pony as well.
"Pony" is just a blanket term for any equine under 14 hands. I never understood why mini people made such a big stink over it.

[allpurpose]

Personally I would rather call Dumplin' a pony than a miniature horse. Why? Because the ponies are just beyond cute! Those show miniatures...have you seen some of those pics? They have these demonic looking eyes and deformed looking heads...shudder....

Give me my rumply dumply bumply Dumplin'. I call him my tiny pony man and he loves it so that is all I need :D

...and I still think he is the cutest mini that ever lived! He's my screen saver, just so you know (the pic with the marshmallow whiskers - love it)!

[greysandbays]

I never understood why mini people made such a big stink over it.

Oh, the answer is real simple: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

At one time, there was a great difference between the monetary worth. Poopsie The Pony On Every Street Corner would sell for only a tiny fraction of what Bigshot Farms Wonder Creature Of Great Rarity would have buyers lined up around the corner for. Mostly, the only difference was that the latter had an advertising campaign and "investors" -- and the former did not.

But like most fads, the "new" has worn off the mini, and now most of them are just Poopsie The Pony On Every Street Corner.

[equineartworks]

...and I still think he is the cutest mini that ever lived! He's my screen saver, just so you know (the pic with the marshmallow whiskers - love it)!

Ok...you made my day with that. I honest to God just said to my DH "I really should make some Dumplin' Screensavers for people to download". I kid you not.

I have a huge widescreen slideshow of him on my desktop :lol:

[allpurpose]

Ok...you made my day with that. I honest to God just said to my DH "I really should make some Dumplin' Screensavers for people to download". I kid you not.

I have a huge widescreen slideshow of him on my desktop :lol:

:winkgrin: