Road Founder . . . Tell Me All About It

[NCSue]

I always thought road founder's contributing cause was hard work on hard surfaces but vet is telling me it's possible for some horses to road founder if just walked on pavement for long periods.

[BornToRide]

No - real road founder is rare and means you 'd really have to work the horse poundingly hard on a road surface, like at the trot for several hours. Most founder cases these days are caused because the horse has equine metabolic syndrome and/or Cushings disease.

Warning signs can alerady be seen way before a horse starts to develop laminitis or worse founder, but generally are missed because owners and even farriers and vets do not know what they are or in some cases literally ignore them. If a horse has any of the following signs, it is most likely metabolically affected:


Tender feet (mostly noticed when bare)
Thin soles & hoof walls
White line separation or disease
Ripples and/or red lines growing down the hoofwall (sign of consistent compromise of hoofwall to laminae connection)
Frequent thrush problems
Ratty looking frogs and/or with deep central frog clefts
Dropped soles (loss of sole concavity)
Excessive toe growth (toe flare) with underslung heels
Softer hoofwall and sole
General excessive chipping, cracking and flaring (not trim related)
Easy bruising and abscessing
Poor wound healing
Fat pockets over shoulder/rump and cresty neck, filled in pockets above eyes

[aiken4horses]

As a kid I rode on the roads a lot, hacking to neighbor farms, or horse shows. Never had a problem. We walked and trotted, never cantered.

If you are not used to running on the road, you're probably more prone to getting shin splints. IMO, horses these days that have only ever been ridden in soft arena footing are going to be in the same boat. Their bones wont be as "tough" or accustomed to the concussion so more likely to sustain injury.

[Ritazza]

Tell me more about working horses on hard surfaces. During the wintertime, since I have NO other place to go out and hack, I've been hacking around the local quiet neighborhoods (with their permission, of course!) for between 1-2 hours on pavement once a week, sometimes with a few minutes of trotting in order to keep warm! Does anyone know the risks of just walking with occasional trotting?

[Castlegate]

Im no expert but I did have a founder in my barn several years ago...I was told by our vet that "road founder" was nothing more than founder caused my concussion...and that it does not have to be from hard ground...could be from a trim too short and just regulary turn out...foot not balanced and hoof not supporting the weight properly....

FWIW

[HoustonFarrier]

I always thought road founder's contributing cause was hard work on hard surfaces but vet is telling me it's possible for some horses to road founder if just walked on pavement for long periods.

You're vet is absolutly correct....it IS possible for some horse to road founder with relativly little hard surface work. The operative word is some. I will add that this can indeed happen and the horse has NO metabloic issues whatsoever. Each horse is different, and must be judged on it's own individual merits, and not on any specific set of determinations.

If you are wondering about YOUR particular horse, you have to be the judge. It has been my experience both as a farrier and an owner, who, works his horses primarily on roads(Clydesdales), that if you are seeing your horse's legs 'stock up' allot afterwards, that is ONE (not the only, but a very good) indication that you may be exceeding your horses capabilities, and need to modify something.


Steve

[George Myers]

My definition of 'road founder' is severe inflammation of the laminar corium and structural damage to the laminae attributed to excessive concussive, lever or shearing forces from working on too hard a surface for too long. Sometimes people will use it in relation to a horse with bad solar bruising.

Any horse - even one with perfect feet for hard terrain - could be at risk from road founder if the work is too great / surface too hard.

A horse with a pre-existing weakness in the laminae may be more prone to mechanically induced laminitis than one with healthy laminae. A horse that lands off balance medially or laterally or toe first may stress / irritate the laminae in that region.

As most of the conditions for the onset of founder are multi-factoral it's hard to make a clear cut division between types of founder. The important thing is that once the irritation has occurred, the pathophysiological response of wound secretion causes extreme pain and can have devastating consequences. The best cure for founder is always prevention.

[Tom Stovall]

George Myers in gray, stuff deleted

My definition of 'road founder' is severe inflammation of the laminar corium and structural damage to the laminae attributed to excessive concussive, lever or shearing forces from working on too hard a surface for too long. Sometimes people will use it in relation to a horse with bad solar bruising.

Your personal definition is in error: mechanical founder (aka, "road founder") is not preceded by laminitis, although laminitis usually follows the initial insult.

Any horse - even one with perfect feet for hard terrain - could be at risk from road founder if the work is too great / surface too hard.

True mechanical founder is caused by leverage and can occur when the wall has a mechanical advantage over the attachment of dermal to epidermal laminae: you've described the etiology of work-induced laminitis, not road founder.

As most of the conditions for the onset of founder are multi-factoral it's hard to make a clear cut division between types of founder.

The etiology of mechanical founder differs from systemic founder in that it it not preceded by laminitis and is often unilateral. Systemic founder is always preceded by laminitis and is seldom unilateral.

[Thomas_1]

Here it tends to be called mechanical founder but it's basically the same thing. Likewise here we also talk about mechanical laminitis which as has been explained by Tom S.

Your vet is quite right it's not always the result of pounding away on hard road surfaces at all. Likewise its absolute nonsense (false) to suggest as BorntoRide did that it's ordinarily resultant from Cushings or a metabolic disorder.

Then again her list of "any of these signs" is also false and misleading information.

[JB]

Here it tends to be called mechanical founder but it's basically the same thing.
I actually consider road founder to be a subset of mechanical founder. One can easily mechanically founder a horse through poor trimming, without the horse ever setting foot on anything even remotely firm.

[twofatponies]

Haven't heard of road founder, so I won't comment on that part, but as the other poster asked about working on roads, I have the following info which has worked for me:

My old trainer from germany said they often worked the horses on the roads (gradually, increasing time) to "harden up" their legs. I would guess this is similar to what other poster said about not shocking a horse that is only used to soft surfaces - you want to build up them getting used to going on the hard surface gradually.

My Amish mare was driven hard for six years on the roads. I got full xrays when I bought her and she had no signs of any damage from that, but that might just be her genetic predisposition to have tough legs.

I ride on the roads when it is muddy and the trails are slick, or when on the way to a connecting trail area. We usually do about three miles altogether on pavement, and combine walking and trotting. If they haven't been on the roads for a while (say after a winter), we do mostly just walking until they've had a week or two to get used to it again. If your horse is not shod you need to be aware the road surface wears the feet much faster than dirt or grass, so not to do so much that they wear down their feet too fast, or use boots if you are going to ride roads constantly. That said, shoes can be slippery on roads - Amish horses and driving horse that go on roads regularly usually have borium and/or road caulks on their shoes to give traction.

[Melyni]

It's one of those old timer terminologies that are confusing because it covers a founder from more than one cause.

It can be mechanical founder where the coffin bone separates from the hoof wall due to mechanical pressure from a bad trim, over long toes etc.

AND it can mean a founder due to exhaustion and the subsequent shock causing a failure of peripheral circulation. Sometimes seen in horses than have stood on the truck too long in cross-country shipping, not seen in the UK where the longest journey is 600 miles but has been seen in horses in the USA where they can go 2,000miles plus.

The exhaustion can also be due to overwork, it used to be seen in driving horses after a marathon work out, and is sometimes seen in poorly prepared endurance horses.

It isn't a common founder, but it is a serious one. It in not the same as the metabolic founder such as IR & Cushings horses get, but it is similar to the founder due to toxemia, either from pregnancy toxemia or due to a bacterial toxemia in the GI tract.

Hope that helps
Yours
MW

[Mary in Area 1]

I once had a horse get loose (rider dismounted and horse spooked) and gallop on pavement for several miles back to the barn. Prior to this episode, horse was sound, had good shoeing and trim, but slight navicular changes.

As soon as horse appeared at the barn, we hosed her down, walked her around til cool and put her in her stall. After a bit she started to park out like a laminitic horse. Her hooves were very warm and she had a pronounced digital pulse. I called the vet, have her IV banamine and started icing her hooves. The vet told me that she was experiencing early "road founder" and that if I was diligent, we could prevent it from progressing.

I followed the vet's instructions to the letter for the next several days, inc. banamine and icing regularly, even during the night. By the end of the week, the horse was sound and back in regular work. Ten years later, there has not been another problem.

[George Myers]

The lack of consensus about the causes and effects of different forms of founder is salutary.

The term founder is often used interchangeably with laminitis but is mostly used to describe varying degrees of separation of P3 and the hoof capsule.

Laminitis is inflammation of the lamallae corium which may or may not result in founder, but founder doesn't occur without laminitis.

Laminitis may be triggered by mechanical irritation / tearing of the laminar attachment, by unnatural weight bearing and/or the presence of a toxin, change in blood chemistry etc.

It is accompanied by a build up of wound secretion which causes extreme pain and may also 'float' the bone away from the capsule.

A horse that has pre-existing structural alterations / damage to its laminae is more at risk of a catastrophic founder from any of those triggers than one with healthy normal laminae.

A catastrophic tearing of the laminar attachment can occur for example when a horse pulls its whole hoof capsule off when it catches a shoe. Long toes can physically lever the capsule away from the pedal bone. Long walls can cause damage through shearing forces - but, for this to result in the wall having a 'mechanical advantage' over the laminar bond sufficient for the capsule to tear away from the bone, strongly suggests pre-existing damage eg. structurally altered/weakened laminae, stretched white line, poor quality sole etc.

Damage to, and/or structural alterations of the laminae may be caused by chronic systemic laminitis and/or by persistent mechanical damage from exposure to excessive (for that horse) concussive, torque, shearing, lever (CTSL) forces.

These forces are exacerbated by and contribute to poor hoof form - eg long toes, long walls, long heels, inadequate toe height, reduced concavity etc.

Excessive CTSL forces may occur as a result of 'work' , or when horses are turned out after long periods of confinement, or are forced into unnatural patterns / degrees of movement, or lack of movement - as in supporting limb founder.

Some questions:

Does the 'lever' action of wall against bone imply there would be more damage at the distal margins?

Would there be more of a 'shearing' force on a steep narrow hoof form with long walls?

Wouldn't a shod hoof be more prone to both lever and shearing forces - given a long wall / toe on a bare foot would be more likely to split or break and therefore reduce those forces? Ie wouldn't shoes amplify the peripheral loading? :)

Why is it more common for one hoof to be affected in mechanical founder unless there are pre-existing issues?

Why is it in systemic founder that the toes of the front feet are more often affected than the whole foot, or the hind feet?

Why don't cushingoid / IR horses (with so-called metabolic founder) typically founder in all four feet?

Aren't diagnoses of the type of founder most often informed by what the horse is known to have recently done - ie horse gallops home on road, pounds around a hard hunt field, horse trials course etc - ergo road founder; horse just turned out onto spring grass - ergo grass founder; horse with cushings - ergo metabolic founder?

A horse galloping home in a panic on its own will have stress hormones coursing through its body - who's to say that isn't a factor in a subsequent founder? A horse turned out after a winter in a stable goes nuts and blats around like a fool - who's to say a subsequent founder isn't a combination of mechanical irritation and dietary / metabolic factors?

Who's to say whether a horse that has foundered has been suffering from low grade laminitis that was attributed to all sorts of other things - the ubiquitous 'jarring up' for example?

Can we ignore the implications of pre-existing heel pain in a subsequent road founder - given the fact that such a horse may have persistently overloaded and stressed the laminar attachment and solar corium at its toes?

Chronic mechanical irritation to the lamellae corium from CTSL forces results in structural alterations to the laminae in the areas of the hoof most affected by those forces - and these alterations may make a horse more prone to damage from the effects of acute laminitis and more likely to suffer greater degrees of separation as a result.

A previously healthy, structurally normal laminar bond doesn't just give way unless there has been either a massive tearing force such as results in full capsule loss or, if it was a partial tear, would result in immediate obvious lameness; and / or there is severe inflammation with a massive build up of wound serum which results in the capsule being 'floated' off the bone.

A pedal bone in a healthy normal hoof cannot suddenly detach and rotate - or sink - given the fact that within a healthy hoof there isn't a 'space' in the hoof capsule for it to rotate / sink into.

Seems to me that founder is usually a long term, multifactoral process and our understanding of it is best served by keeping an open mind.

[luvmywalkers]

No - real road founder is rare and means you 'd really have to work the horse poundingly hard on a road surface, like at the trot for several hours. Most founder cases these days are caused because the horse has equine metabolic syndrome and/or Cushings disease.

Warning signs can alerady be seen way before a horse starts to develop laminitis or worse founder, but generally are missed because owners and even farriers and vets do not know what they are or in some cases literally ignore them. If a horse has any of the following signs, it is most likely metabolically affected:


Tender feet (mostly noticed when bare)
Thin soles & hoof walls
White line separation or disease
Ripples and/or red lines growing down the hoofwall (sign of consistent compromise of hoofwall to laminae connection)
Frequent thrush problems
Ratty looking frogs and/or with deep central frog clefts
Dropped soles (loss of sole concavity)
Excessive toe growth (toe flare) with underslung heels
Softer hoofwall and sole
General excessive chipping, cracking and flaring (not trim related)
Easy bruising and abscessing
Poor wound healing
Fat pockets over shoulder/rump and cresty neck, filled in pockets above eyes

You are so wrong! Two of my horses suffered from a mechanical founder, and they hadn't been worked at all for years.

As for your list: Perhaps a combination of these could indicate a metabolic issue, but quite a few of them can - and often do - have other causes.

[BornToRide]

[QUOTE]You are so wrong! Two of my horses suffered from a mechanical founder, and they hadn't been worked at all for years.
I am not wrong on this. Several others here have also confirmed that road founder is very rare these days. Is this what your vet or farrier told you? If so, then what caused the mechanical and traumatic tearing of the laminae in your horses?


As for your list: Perhaps a combination of these could indicate a metabolic issue, but quite a few of them can - and often do - have other causes.Look, we (barefoot trimmers) deal with this all the time. Absolutely there can be other laminitis causes, but a VERY high percentage are caused by diet, which can easily be confirmed by testing the blood's insulin and glucose levels. That's how we know. That's what we (trimmers) experience on a regular basis. Still in doubt? Read Pete Ramey's article on laminitis.

[ThirdCharm]

Road founder is due to concussion and damage to the blood flow in the foot. Founder is the result of the laminae dying.

Mechanical founder is due to the mechanical "leverage" of an overlong toe/unbalanced foot pulling otherwise healthy laminae apart. In this case damage to the laminae is the RESULT, not the CAUSE; the opposite of road founder.

Jennifer

[Tom Stovall]

George Myers in gray, stuff deleted

The term founder is often used interchangeably with laminitis but is mostly used to describe varying degrees of separation of P3 and the hoof capsule.

The term "founder" is often used incorrectly and synonymously with "laminitis." With reference to the pathology affecting equids, the term "founder" refers to any change in the relationship of distal phalanx to the stratum internum; a linear change in that relationship is called a "sinker."

Laminitis is inflammation of the lamallae corium which may or may not result in founder,

Laminitis is an inflammation of the laminae, not the lammalle corium. Epidermal laminae arise from the coronary corium, dermal laminae arise from the dermal corium, located on the dorsum of the distal phalanx.

but founder doesn't occur without laminitis.

Mechanical founder is not preceded by laminitis.

Some questions:

Does the 'lever' action of wall against bone imply there would be more damage at the distal margins?

In mechanical founder, the lever formed by the phalangeal integument pulls the wall away from (not against) the distal phalanx, using the ground as a fulcrum. Separation begins at the most distal portion of P3.

In systemic founder, depending on the extent of laminar dysfunction, the DDFT and hydraulic pressure move the distal phalanx away from the wall, using the distal portion of the DIJ as a fulcrum.

Would there be more of a 'shearing' force on a steep narrow hoof form with long walls?

Not necessarily.

Wouldn't a shod hoof be more prone to both lever and shearing forces -

All else being equal, a shod horse is LESS prone to mechanical founder because the shoe will not allow forces arising from leverage to be concentrated on a single aspect of the hoof capsule.

given a long wall / toe on a bare foot would be more likely to split or break and therefore reduce those forces? Ie wouldn't shoes amplify the peripheral loading? :)

No, you have it backwards: A bare foot allows stress to be concentrated on the dorsal/solar portion of the hoof capsule; when integument has a mechanical advantage over bone, the laminar attachment is the weak link.

Why is it more common for one hoof to be affected in mechanical founder unless there are pre-existing issues?

Unilateral presentation in mechanical founder is NOT more common, but it happens. IME, most often when a horse with a long lever paws or when one hoof breaks off while the other remains intact.

Why is it in systemic founder that the toes of the front feet are more often affected

Because the dermal laminae arise from the dorsum, not the heels, of P3.

than the whole foot,

Total laminar dysfunction results in sinker.

or the hind feet?

Because hind feet don't bear as much weight and gravity is a player.

Why don't cushingoid / IR horses (with so-called metabolic founder) typically founder in all four feet?

Some do. I lost a metabolic founder last year that was symptomatic in all four, worst in the right hind (!). I have no idea why, metabolics make me crazy.

Aren't diagnoses of the type of founder most often informed by what the horse is known to have recently done - ie horse gallops home on road, pounds around a hard hunt field, horse trials course etc - ergo road founder; horse just turned out onto spring grass - ergo grass founder; horse with cushings - ergo metabolic founder?

The equine vets I know routinely diagnose founders/sinkers primarily on the basis of presentation and radiographs, not history.

A previously healthy, structurally normal laminar bond doesn't just give way unless there has been either a massive tearing force such as results in full capsule loss or, if it was a partial tear, would result in immediate obvious lameness;

You know this because? IME, a little bit of leverage and an unyielding fulcrum can result in laminar insult, resulting in laminar bleeding, followed by hydraulic pressure, laminar dysfunction, and destabilization of P3 - followed by P3 rotation due primarily to the pull of the DDFT when the horse attempts to turn his foot over.

A pedal bone in a healthy normal hoof cannot suddenly detach and rotate - or sink - given the fact that within a healthy hoof there isn't a 'space' in the hoof capsule for it to rotate / sink into.

A healthy distal phalanx can, and often does, change it's relationship with the wall (rotate and/or sink) whenever laminar dysfunction occurs, whatever the cause of that dysfunction.

Seems to me that founder is usually a long term, multifactoral process and our understanding of it is best served by keeping an open mind.

Chronic founder is long term; acute is right now: neither improves until the relationship between the distal phalanx and the hoof wall is stabilized by some means.

[Rienzi]

Well, OP, if you weren't confused before, I bet you are now!

I guess the main thing to take away from this is that people can mean many different things when they say "road founder". I think the safest course in this case is for you to ask the vet who did the diagnosing exactly what he/she meant by "road founder" and what does he recommend for management practices.

[luvmywalkers]

[QUOTE]I am not wrong on this. Several others here have also confirmed that road founder is very rare these days. Is this what your vet or farrier told you? If so, then what caused the mechanical and traumatic tearing of the laminae in your horses?

Look, we (barefoot trimmers) deal with this all the time. Absolutely there can be other laminitis causes, but a VERY high percentage are caused by diet, which can easily be confirmed by testing the blood's insulin and glucose levels. That's how we know. That's what we (trimmers) experience on a regular basis. Still in doubt? Read Pete Ramey's article on laminitis.

Elsewhere on this forum you mentioned something else you, barefoot trimmer, deal with all the time: excessive sole trimming. Guess you never dealt with the after effects of this? Or maybe my definition of "excessive" differs from yours.

With both horses, who went through this at the same time but one more severe than the other, it was first diagnosed by a farrier, confirmed by my vet, and again by her substitute.

Those horses are old, retired, not fat, beetpulp with molasses has always been part of their diet, as is some sweet feed, senior feed that is not the lowest in NSC, and alfalfa.

They recovered remarkably well without making any changes to their diet. With some luck we'll celebrate in 4 months the 32nd birthday of the oldest one.

As for the cause: Lets keep it at improper trimming, combined with a late diagnosis. All of my horses are barefoot, and no, none ever had long/overgrown toes; all of mine are on a 6 week schedule.

Pete Ramey: I read his articles and have his book, and learned a lot from it. But that doesn't mean I agree with every word he wrote. Furthermore: He is a farrier, not a scientist (as he himself states).

OP asked to be informed about road founder, and you simply dismiss it, failing to understand that the term "road founder" should read "mechanical founder", and there's no diet in the world that's going to prevent that. Horse owners education on proper hoof form can - which should be your specialty.