ok- so exactly what are wheat middlings?

[mammadoc]

and distiller's dried grains?:confused:

[kelser01]

Arent they just by products?

[Jaegermonster]

Wheat middlings are the left over crap after the wheat is processed to be bread or cereal or whatever else it is going to be.

Distillers grains are the left over stuff in the bottom of the barrel after they make whiskey or whatever booze they make, then they dry it and use it in feed.

[Simkie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_middlings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillers_grains

[mammadoc]

thinking about tc lite. first item is wheat middlings. dried grains are right up there. anyone using tc lite and what do you like/dislike about it? thanks.

[mammadoc]

oh- btw- simkie- thanks for the links. i could have wiki-ed it myself, but thanks for doing it for me!:D man, both of those things don't sound too good- i thought tc was considered a quality feed. all of my dog food research tells me that "by-products", as a rule, are generally ca-ca. hmmm.

[buck22]

there are lots of by products that are useful and not ka-ka :) beet pulp and molasses for instance, they're both by-products of other industries... (beet pulp for the ponies and molasses for my pancakes and cookies :winkgrin: no molasses for my ponies):)

[monstrpony]

Oh, for heaven's sake.

THINK about the production of, say, wheat flour. You know what a head of wheat looks like, right? Know how it looks when it's growing? So, they harvest the wheat, run it through rollers or something to loosen the seed kernels, and separate the kernels from the "chaff". The kernels get ground into flour, the chaff--which is *nothing more* than dried grass, essentially, same stuff as the rest of the plant, just the part that surrounds the kernel--is collected to be sold to horse feed producers. What's so bloody awful about that?

Distiller's dried grains? So, they make a big soup out of grains, let it ferment, pour off the liquid to be distilled into hooch, and dry the grain soup that's left over. Same idea as making oatmeal, essentially, except that it's allowed to ferment (in a very controlled, biologically clean way).

Yes, they are "by-products" of another commercial process, but it's not like chicken guts or something like that. Think efficient use of resources instead of thinking "crap".

I have fed TC lite, very satisfied with it.

[Simkie]

oh- btw- simkie- thanks for the links. i could have wiki-ed it myself, but thanks for doing it for me!:D man, both of those things don't sound too good- i thought tc was considered a quality feed. all of my dog food research tells me that "by-products", as a rule, are generally ca-ca. hmmm.

Dogs and horses are very different animals and what is bad for one is not bad for the other. Horses NEED a lot of fiber, which various by-products can provide--especially with feeds like TC Lite and Low Starch. You need *something* to act as a carrier and a binder. Using wheat or grain ups your NSC and calories...

[gabz]

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush...SI-3919web.pdf (http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2069/ANSI-3919web.pdf)

This is from Oklahoma State - description of horse feeds:

Quote:
Grain products are grains which have received some type of chemical or physical processing (e.g. ground, cracked, flaked) before formulation.
Plant protein products are used to increase the concentration of protein.
Processed grain by-products are secondary products produced by processing grain that provide a variety of nutrients, and include ingredients such as wheat middlings and bran. Similarly, roughage
products are produced from processing roughage and can
supply a variety of ingredients. Roughage products include
ingredients such as soybean hulls and beet pulp.

[Jaegermonster]

the wiki link said it best:

wheat middlings are an inexpensive filler, commonly referred to as floor sweepings, with no real nutritional value. Just like I said, crap.

[Jaegermonster]

thinking about tc lite. first item is wheat middlings. dried grains are right up there. anyone using tc lite and what do you like/dislike about it? thanks.

i want to see a grain etc as the first ingredient, if not the first few ingredients. Any grain that starts out with wheat middlings, peanut hulls or anything like that first or real high up is not something I will be feeding my horses.

[Daydream Believer]

I'd much rather pay good money for whole grains like oats and barley than by products. Horses do need roughage and fillers and fiber but in their concentrate ration? Then to make it palatable they add molasses more often than not.

[mammadoc]

um, well, yeah- of course i am aware of the differences between horses and dogs.

having said that- thanks for the info.

tc's site lists lite as 9.3% nsc, sounds pretty good.

again, would love to hear feedback on the lite. pros/cons- why did you like it or why not.

[monstrpony]

It's going to be difficult to have a feed with a NSC below 10% that has whole grains as a main ingredient. A feed designed to be very low NSC but provide a *carrier* for vitamins, minerals, probiotics, will have to be forage-based and have fillers, so it should be things like soy hulls, beet pulp and wheat mids. You aren't feeding those things for nutrients, you're feeding them to be a forage-based carrier for the fortifications.

If you can get your horse to eat a vit/min/probiotic supp without any carrier, that would be "best" for a horse that needs a low-cal, low-NSC feed--just feed good hay and the supp. The problem is getting the horse to eat the supp without any carrier. Or, in the extreme cases of horses for whom even hay is too high in starches/carbs, well, what the heck ARE you going to feed???

I liked the Lite because it did what it was supposed to, and was palatable and consistent good quality. My vet really likes the vit/min/probiotic pacakage used in TC feeds. I had an IR/Cushings horse who needed very low NSC. At that time, we were also having a critical hay shortage so it was difficult to feed a 1700 lb horse on just hay. The TC lite filled the bill marvelously.

[mammadoc]

thank you, mp, for a very comprehensive answer the pros and/or cons of ts lite. good info!

[SLW]

Wheat midlings in large amounts are crap for horses but a common filler in cattle feeds.

The distillers grains out there now are from the ethanol plants who process corn. Set aside funds to treat your horse for a profound colic or burial if you feed it.

We treat horses for colic (death) owned by cattle producers who feed old dobbin the cattle grain thinking he can eat the same thing.

[mammadoc]

wow- profound colic? are you serious or being sorta sarc?

[LMH]

The distillers grains out there now are from the ethanol plants who process corn. Set aside funds to treat your horse for a profound colic or burial if you feed it.



That is a fairly bold and untrue statement.

[mammadoc]

geez, the second sentence seems fairly, if not highly,bold as well. (imho)

[BornToRide]

I'd much rather pay good money for whole grains like oats and barley than by products. Horses do need roughage and fillers and fiber but in their concentrate ration? Then to make it palatable they add molasses more often than not. Totally agree. Some labels are so non-specific, I do not even understand why people buy this stuff. I wonder if they would eat something like this. If I ever felt like I had to add starch to my horses diet it would be plain, preferably organic oats and nothing processed!

[jn4jenny]

Until recently, I thought by-products were cheap useless filler. Then I started to do a little more research.

Although I do not find this article 100% convincing since its primary sources are nutritionists working for Purina and Progressive (who, of course, would be prone to defend their own products), what the article says about indigestible fiber sources as a crucial component of complete feeds makes sense to me:

"What types of fiber are commonly used in complete feeds? "A lot of complete feeds have a high percentage of alfalfa or grass-type forage," says Raub. "You need to look at other types of fiber to provide a more indigestible type of fiber residue that's important to complete feeds, such as rice hulls, oat hulls, or peanut hulls. Beet pulp and soy hulls are much more digestible. Rice bran runs 20% fiber, but is also 20% fat. Wheat bran is also used, but there is no inherent value to it versus other fiber sources. The type and the mix of fibers determine the caloric value a complete feed may have."

Some horse owners might balk at the term "lesser digestible fibers," but Raub makes the purpose clear: "The lesser digestible fiber sources reflect a more natural composition, as if the horses were out grazing mixed forage; in theory it helps maintain gastrointestinal health and function. When you reduce that, you may very well have an impact on gastrointestinal health. If you have an excessive amount of indigestible residue, then feed at a lower total rate, it's a good recipe for colic. This was a consideration in the development of Equine Senior and reconfirmed by research we have completed in developing our new line of WellSolve feeds (Purina diets for horses that are obese or sensitive to starch or sugar.)."

Full article:
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10262

[Jaegermonster]

I'm in agreement with that information. However, and I don't care what kind of feed it is, I do not want to see wheat middlings, peanut hulls or any other crap filler within the first 5 or so ingredients. The only fillers acceptable to me within the first 5 are rice bran and beet pulp. Period. The other stuff can be in there depending on what kind of feed it is ("complete" etc), but some type of decent grain needs to be among the first ingredients.

[rcloisonne]

I'm in agreement with that information. However, and I don't care what kind of feed it is, I do not want to see wheat middlings, peanut hulls or any other crap filler within the first 5 or so ingredients. The only fillers acceptable to me within the first 5 are rice bran and beet pulp. Period. The other stuff can be in there depending on what kind of feed it is ("complete" etc), but some type of decent grain needs to be among the first ingredients.
Not if you're looking to feed the horse a diet low in NSCs. "Fillers", as you call them, are MUCH lower in sugar and starches than whole grains. And low sugar/starch is the whole point of feeds such as TC Lite and others of that type.

[monstrpony]

Some labels are so non-specific, I do not even understand why people buy this stuff.

Another reason I prefer TC and dislike Purina. Purina claims to be simply guarding their recipes with their vague descriptions of ingredients ("forage products" etc.) but I don't see why that is an issue for other companies. At least TC is very clear about what they are using.

[JB]

The only fillers acceptable to me within the first 5 are rice bran and beet pulp.
I'm not sure why you consider those fillers :confused: They are the bulk of the "bulk" of the product. Vitamins and minerals need something to be mixed in ;)

but some type of decent grain needs to be among the first ingredients.
May I ask why you feel that way? One cannot have a low/er sugar feed if "decent grains" are among the first few ingredients, and that is incredibly important for some horses. What do you feel grains bring to the table that nothing else does?

[BornToRide]

I would much rather use simple hay or alfala pallets as a carrier for supplements than buy a processed product.

[jn4jenny]

I'm in agreement with that information. However, and I don't care what kind of feed it is, I do not want to see wheat middlings, peanut hulls or any other crap filler within the first 5 or so ingredients. The only fillers acceptable to me within the first 5 are rice bran and beet pulp. Period. The other stuff can be in there depending on what kind of feed it is ("complete" etc), but some type of decent grain needs to be among the first ingredients.

Like JB, I'd like to hear more about this Jaegermonster. My feeling is that if it is truly a COMPLETE feed, which are incredibly popular with COTH'ers, it would make perfect sense for one of the top 5 ingredients to be a relatively indigestible form of fiber--and even more sense for there to be several such forms, like beet pulp + soy hulls + wheat middlings. If it were so damn awful, why are there so many healthy horses on feeds like Triple Crown Complete?

OTOH, I do think this reveals something important for those who are NOT using Complete feeds as true "complete" feeds (meaning replacement for all grain AND all hay). If the horse is already getting ample long-stem hay, maybe a high quantity of indigestible fiber sources in the grain is just a lame substitute for having more hay or a grass-based pellet. This would explain volumes about why the same horse can subsist on 6 pounds of complete feed OR 1.5 lbs of ration balancer + more hay.

[BEARCAT]

That's also one of the top ingredients in Farrier's Formula, as pointed out by my farrier who recommended something else...

[BornToRide]

If it were so damn awful, why are there so many healthy horses on feeds like Triple Crown Complete?

Yes, but do we really know this? I know of several horses with hoof problems for example that were exacerbated by feeding TC.

[jn4jenny]

Yes, but do we really know this? I know of several horses with hoof problems for example that were exacerbated by feeding TC.

Do we really know that that was caused by the "indigestible fiber" issue? There's an awful lot of stuff in TC feeds, and the reaction could have been caused by all sorts of stuff.

FWIW, my horse is not on one of these high-indigestible-fiber complete feeds. He was on TC Complete for a year (barn's feed of choice) and was just okay on it--not unhealthy but not blooming like a flower. He's now on a grass-hay-based pellet with an ingredients label that's not worth writing home about, and he seems to be doing very well.

[SLW]

wow- profound colic? are you serious or being sorta sarc?

I'm being sincere and honest. Feed any horse straight distillers corn a.m. & p.m. for a few days and see what happens. As a filler in grain the risk goes down but it still exist because the plant's which produce ethanol are producing a product for fuel as their primary interest- livestock food/filler is a by-product.

Don't take my word for it, ring Kansas State University or any of the state schools who have done the research.

[BornToRide]

Do we really know that that was caused by the "indigestible fiber" issue? There's an awful lot of stuff in TC feeds, and the reaction could have been caused by all sorts of stuff.

FWIW, my horse is not on one of these high-indigestible-fiber complete feeds. He was on TC Complete for a year (barn's feed of choice) and was just okay on it--not unhealthy but not blooming like a flower. He's now on a grass-hay-based pellet with an ingredients label that's not worth writing home about, and he seems to be doing very well.
Yes, but if the horse improves when it is taken away, I really do not care exactly what may have caused it, as we already know that most horses hooves react to excessive carbs/sugars in feeds and when you have time, check the thread here on problems with soy in feeds - also an eye opener.

[monstrpony]

If the horse is already getting ample long-stem hay, maybe a high quantity of indigestible fiber sources in the grain is just a lame substitute for having more hay or a grass-based pellet. This would explain volumes about why the same horse can subsist on 6 pounds of complete feed OR 1.5 lbs of ration balancer + more hay.

And in the midst of a drought-induced hay shortage, maybe the substitution isn't quite so "lame". In a time where commercial complete feeds are available and hay is very difficult to obtain consistently, the 6 lbs of complete feed may be a very viable alternative. Perhaps not ideal, but viable.

[mammadoc]

so are you saying that it is very likely that my horse will suffer with a profound colic and/or death if i feed him 2# per day of tc lite?

i really do appreciate all input- so thanks- truly. (no sarc)

clearly i would not feed a horse *just* dis. dried grain.......

i am beginning to think that this might be a real "hot" issue, semi-similar to the bare/shod debate.................

[mammadoc]

i just talked to a tc rep and she told me that their distiller's dried grains are by-products of alcohol producer's industry.

[monstrpony]

so are you saying that it is very likely that my horse will suffer with a profound colic and/or death if i feed him 2# per day of tc lite?

For what it is worth, mine did not.

i am beginning to think that this might be a real "hot" issue, semi-similar to the bare/shod debate.................

So it would appear!!

[BornToRide]

so are you saying that it is very likely that my horse will suffer with a profound colic and/or death if i feed him 2# per day of tc lite?

That's not what she's saying at all. All this means is that you are potentially increasing the risk of your horse having a colic by feeding something like this!

It is already a known fact and supported by research that simply feeding grains increases colic risk by FOUR times!

[Jaegermonster]

Ok I'm going to try to address everybodys questions.
I don't eat a lot of processed foods myself and neither do my animals. I don't feed pellets, nor do I feed "complete" feeds. I feed Nutrena XTN and free choice hay, and during the right times of year I have nice grass.
A couple reasons why I don't feed pellets: we have a mill here in my area that makes the feed. I went there once in response to an alarm going off (which ended up being accidental) and saw with my own eyes the employees sweeping the floor and dumping the floor sweep into the pellet machine, that was in operation at the time. I want to see what my horses are eating.
I also went to a nutrition clinic at a vet hospital and they did a demonstration where they took a small mason jar with a cup of pellets and a small mason jar with a cup of sweet feed.
Then they filled both jars up with water. The pellets ended up the consistency of peanut butter and nasty.

As far as the rice bran/beet pulp filler issue, I think both of those are quality ingredients. I much prefer them to be used as a "filler", although I'm well aware they can both be fed alone or also as a supplement, as opposed to peanut hulls or wheat middlings, which to me is floor sweepings. I also think that beet pulp and rice bran are also more able to be utilized by the horse, as opposed to floor sweepings.

I have also found that the feeds with wheat middling, peanut hulls etc as fillers are also often less expensive than the feeds that use more quality ingredients as fillers.

I guess the bottom line is everyone needs to evalute their situation, their budget, their animals and the feeds they are interested in to find what is best for their situation.

[LarkspurCO]

I heard an interview on NPR recently where they discussed distiller's dried grains.

Yes, it's a byproduct of the ethanol industry. However, this byproduct is a superior feed in many ways to the original grains, because the starch has been cooked out (read: LOW NSC). They're extracting sugar to make the ethanol. This byproduct is easier for cattle and horses to digest, and it's safer than whole grains.

They also say cattle fed distillers dried grains have more and better quality meat, with less waste and fewer problems than grain-fed cattle.

I've been feeding a pelleted Progressive product called Premium Peformance (Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers) to my hard-keeper TB and he does very well on it. He can't handle oats.

[Simkie]

Ok I'm going to try to address everybodys questions.
I don't eat a lot of processed foods myself and neither do my animals. I don't feed pellets, nor do I feed "complete" feeds. I feed Nutrena XTN and free choice hay, and during the right times of year I have nice grass.

Care to share the XTN ingredients off of your tag? I wasn't able to find a list online.

[grayarabpony]

I heard an interview on NPR recently where they discussed distiller's dried grains.

Yes, it's a byproduct of the ethanol industry. However, this byproduct is a superior feed in many ways to the original grains, because the starch has been cooked out (read: LOW NSC). They're extracting sugar to make the ethanol. This byproduct is easier for cattle and horses to digest, and it's safer than whole grains.

They also say cattle fed distillers dried grains have more and better quality meat, with less waste and fewer problems than grain-fed cattle.

I've been feeding a pelleted Progressive product called Premium Peformance (Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers) to my hard-keeper TB and he does very well on it. He can't handle oats.

That's interesting.

[Jaegermonster]

Care to share the XTN ingredients off of your tag? I wasn't able to find a list online.

I'm at work and don't have it but I can post it tomorrow. IIRC I think the first couple of ingredients are beet pulp, oats, barley (not necessarily in that order, but it is a beet pulp based feed) and the rest escapes me. It's been awhile since I really looked around at different feeds.

[jn4jenny]

And in the midst of a drought-induced hay shortage, maybe the substitution isn't quite so "lame". In a time where commercial complete feeds are available and hay is very difficult to obtain consistently, the 6 lbs of complete feed may be a very viable alternative. Perhaps not ideal, but viable.

I hear you on the issue of regional availability, but even in the context of a hay shortage--which is happening all over the country, including here in Michigan--it is foolish to feed a complete feed JUST to get indigestible fiber. Let's not pretend that one's fiber choices are only long-stem hay or complete feed. If the horse only needs more indigestible fiber, then give it more indigestible fiber, say in the form of beet pulp or rice hulls or alf cubes whatever else is more cheaply available in the area. The exceptions, of course, would be situations where convenience matters more than cost or where the horse genuinely needs everything on the ingredient list.

[SLW]

so are you saying that it is very likely that my horse will suffer with a profound colic and/or death if i feed him 2# per day of tc lite?

i really do appreciate all input- so thanks- truly. (no sarc)

clearly i would not feed a horse *just* dis. dried grain.......

i am beginning to think that this might be a real "hot" issue, semi-similar to the bare/shod debate.................


I don't know what TC Lite is or what the ingrediants are, sorry. One huge concern w/ using distillers grain is moldy corn poisoning because the mold is not destroyed during processing. MCP is a miserable, painful death for a horse.

Now, in a formulated horse grain perhaps the amount of distillers grain is tiny and not an issue. When I think "distillers grain" I"m thinking the 50# brown bag of very powdery corn, the real deal with no additives, that is tossed in a feed bunk for cattle. That stuff should never be near a horse.

Hope this helps and clears up my comments.

[Jaegermonster]

Care to share the XTN ingredients off of your tag? I wasn't able to find a list online.

It's a low starch, hi fat feed, here it is:

Nutrena XTN Ingredients:
Flaked Oats, Brewers Rice, Flaked Barley, Dehulled soybean meal, rice bran, Distillers grains with solubles, soybean hulls, beet pulp, dehydrated alfalfa meal, cane molasses, active dry yeast, whole flax, vegetable oil, Vit A Supplement, Vit D3 supplement, Vit E Supplement, Vit B12 supplement, Riboflavin supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Methlonine Supplement, Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Salt, Natural and artificial flavors added, Lecithin, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus Acidophillus, Lactobacillius Casel, Bifldobacterium Bifidum, Enterococcus Faecium, Zinc Methionine Complex, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Phosphoric acid, propionic acid (a preservative), linseed oil.

[gabz]

Ok I'm going to try to address everybodys questions.
I don't eat a lot of processed foods myself and neither do my animals. I don't feed pellets, nor do I feed "complete" feeds. I feed Nutrena XTN and free choice hay, and during the right times of year I have nice grass.
A couple reasons why I don't feed pellets: we have a mill here in my area that makes the feed. I went there once in response to an alarm going off (which ended up being accidental) and saw with my own eyes the employees sweeping the floor and dumping the floor sweep into the pellet machine, that was in operation at the time. I want to see what my horses are eating.
I also went to a nutrition clinic at a vet hospital and they did a demonstration where they took a small mason jar with a cup of pellets and a small mason jar with a cup of sweet feed.
Then they filled both jars up with water. The pellets ended up the consistency of peanut butter and nasty.

As far as the rice bran/beet pulp filler issue, I think both of those are quality ingredients. I much prefer them to be used as a "filler", although I'm well aware they can both be fed alone or also as a supplement, as opposed to peanut hulls or wheat middlings, which to me is floor sweepings. I also think that beet pulp and rice bran are also more able to be utilized by the horse, as opposed to floor sweepings.

I have also found that the feeds with wheat middling, peanut hulls etc as fillers are also often less expensive than the feeds that use more quality ingredients as fillers.

I guess the bottom line is everyone needs to evalute their situation, their budget, their animals and the feeds they are interested in to find what is best for their situation.

Well - you have your reasons. But to witness 1 mfg plant and what IT does, and then project that to everything, is a little narrow. The same for the pellets in the mason jar. ??? What were they trying to demonstrate? Ick factor? What kind of pellets? again, you are taking 1 thing and projecting to apply to many without all the facts.

Personally? I'd prefer my horse to have something that is easily digestible in his stomach. There's a strong reason that whole corn is not a preferred food product for horses - whereas crushed corn (whatever it's called) is better digested.

If you don't care for "floor sweepings"... you better quite feeding beet pulp :yes: That's one of the dirtest products out there. Beets grow in the ground - when they come out, they're covered in DIRT - big honking clods of it sometimes. They are dumped into dump trucks and then dumped on the ground at a sugar beet plant. Sometimes they sit there for many days before heading into the "plant" ...

Here's an interesting blog ... as you can see, the beets are DRIVEN OVER by farm equipment.. not once, but twice in the harvest. That doesn't count the number of times they are driven over when being fertilized.
http://www.coloradoguy.com/sugar-beet-harvesting/photos.htm

So... floor sweepings (which would most likely be all the chaff and "stuff" from the grains, vitamines, minerals and salts of the product), dirt.., oil/grease dripping off of farm equipment ... samo samo. about the same as harvested hay.

[Jaegermonster]

Well, Gabz, you sure are making a lot of generalizations about me without getting all your facts.
Sorry I didn't post a whole lifetime of horse experience that went into the decision to feed what I do on this thread.
FWIW, it was Seminole feed they used for the water demonstration. They were illustrating what can happen with pellets when mixed with water, and backing it up by showing the number of impaction colics they were seeing that they believed were related to pellets and not drinking enough water.
I'm not a big fan of beet pulp generally, which is why I don't feed just beet pulp. At least it's natural and not overly processed, which is the main thing I don't like about pellets. I just plain don't like pellets, period. Some folks do, and that's fine for them.
Overall beet pulp is in the feed and I am very happy with the XTN overall. I don't feed beet pulp alone.
There isn't any corn in XTN, so crushed or not it's not an issue.
Some people asked me some questions, I tried to answer them, that is all.

Like I said, people know their own situation and their horses, and they can do what they think is best.

[Melyni]

Wheat midlings in large amounts are crap for horses but a common filler in cattle feeds.

The distillers grains out there now are from the ethanol plants who process corn. Set aside funds to treat your horse for a profound colic or burial if you feed it.

We treat horses for colic (death) owned by cattle producers who feed old dobbin the cattle grain thinking he can eat the same thing.

Er not quite, Wheat middlings have quite a bit of flour left in them which has gluten in it. It is often used as a binder in pellet making when you cook the mix the gluten solidifies the pellets, as it does when you cook bread or cakes.

A lot of pellet mixes have wheat mids in as a binder.

Dried Distillers grains are the by-product of the fermentation of corn or barley from either the ethanol or the alcohol industry. They are high in protein, B vits and low in starch and sugar (it all got fermented out) so they are very useful in feeds aimed at IR horses all those low starch feeds and low glycemic feeds.

I've fed dried distillers grains in some form or other for 30 years and never had a colic as a result.
There are far worse things in cattle feed than DDS, so don't give feeds made for cattle to horses, but don't worry about the DDS in horse feeds.

YOurs
MW

[gabz]

FWIW, it was Seminole feed they used for the water demonstration. They were illustrating what can happen with pellets when mixed with water, and backing it up by showing the number of impaction colics they were seeing that they believed were related to pellets and not drinking enough water.


Impaction colic can occur from not drinking enough water period. Whether the horse eats grain, pellets, or hay.

Soaking oats / crushed corn aka sweet feed in water and then soaking pellets in water doesn't, to me, demonstrate much of anything. Impaction colic is farther along in the intestine than the stomach or small intestine - sweet feed would be digested into the same kind of mush that pellets would be, by the time it reaches the large intestine. They all need water / moisture to be processed. If you're trying to say that pellets require more water than say oats - you may be correct. However, hay requires more water than grass to digest - because grass has more water IN it. one is not inherently bad over another because it requires more water than another.

We all have our opinions and we make choices. Implying that something is BAD for horses because it's not "your" choice, is what I feel strongly against.

[Jaegermonster]

Look, Gabz, some people asked me questions earlier in the thread about my earlier post. I tried to answer their questions. I'm sorry that you didn't like the answer.
As far as the water/pellet/sweet feed demonstration and the seminar, you weren't there so you really can't comment on it. I felt that the entire presentation was very informative and helpful, at least to me. Again, someone asked me a question and I was trying to answer it.
However, thanks for explaining impaction colic, although I already knew that.
I'm not implying anything is "bad" just because I don't do it. It doesn't work for me and it doesn't fit in my program. It might work for someone else and that's fine.

As I said before, people need to evaluate their horses, their situation, and their budget and do what they think is best for their animals.

Lots of people have horses, and lots of people do lots of different things. Obviously we each think the way we are doing things is good or we wouldn't be doing it that way.

Everyone has to do what they think is best for their own situation.

[SLW]

I've fed dried distillers grains in some form or other for 30 years and never had a colic as a result.
There are far worse things in cattle feed than DDS, so don't give feeds made for cattle to horses, but don't worry about the DDS in horse feeds.

YOurs
MW

Appreciate your expertise & just above I clarified that feeding straight distillers grain is the main problem. Thanks.

K-State news release:

"Distiller’s grains have become a staple in some bovine diets, but a Kansas State University researcher is not recommending that they be used in horse rations.

“People have asked ‘can I feed dried or wet distiller’s grains with soluble (DDGS) to my horses',” said Teresa Slough, equine nutrition specialist with K-State Research and Extension.

Given the information researchers have so far, Slough said she would not recommend feeding DDGS to horses.

There has been little research done in feeding DDGS, a byproduct of the ethanol production process, to horses, she said. So far, the studies that have been done examined feeding DDGS for only a short period of time.

“There is no information available so far on the long-term effects of feeding DDGS to working horses, mares or foals,” she said.

The upside of feeding DDGS to horses is that they will eat it and, in fact, they like it, said Slough, who is an assistant professor in K-State’s Department of Animal Sciences and Industry. In addition, it is sometimes a less expensive source of protein.

But Slough warns that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

“Horses are very susceptible to fumonisin poisoning from moldy corn. Fermentation during ethanol production doesn’t destroy the mold, rather it is concentrated.

“Feeding DDGS contaminated with fumonisin just once could cause death,” she said.

Another disadvantage, the researcher said, is that DDGS has a high phosphorous content.

“Unless the other feedstuffs in the horse’s diet are very high in calcium, the potential exists to create a diet inversed in its Ca:P ratio and negatively affect bone development,” Slough added. “This is of particular concern with broodmares and foals.”

DDGS has a high sulfur content, which also makes it problematic for horses.

“Sulfur toxicity in horses, although rare, can result in colic, jaundiced mucous membranes, labored breathing, cyanosis and convulsions, followed by death,” she said.

“The bottom line is, feeding DDGS to horses is not recommended unless it’s been tested for fumonisin and contains less than 5 parts per million, and then it should only comprise a small percentage of the total diet" she concluded." > end quote

[rcloisonne]

It's a low starch, hi fat feed, here it is:
Nutrena XTN Ingredients:
Flaked Oats, Brewers Rice, Flaked Barley, Dehulled soybean meal, rice bran, Distillers grains with solubles, soybean hulls, beet pulp, dehydrated alfalfa meal, cane molasses, active dry yeast, whole flax, vegetable oil,...
With the first few ingredients being oats (~55% starch*) and barley (~44% starch*), no way in hell this is a "low starch" feed. Did you ever have a sample analyzed? And then there are those pesky "floor sweep" by-product ingredients: brewers rice, soy hulls, distillers grains, dehydrated alfalfa meal. I can't believe your're feeding this stuff! :winkgrin:

I'm at work and don't have it but I can post it tomorrow. IIRC I think the first couple of ingredients are beet pulp, oats, barley (not necessarily in that order, but it is a beet pulp based feed) and the rest escapes me.
As BP is 8th on the list of ingredients, it's absurd to call this feed "beet pulp based".


* averages from Equi Analytical taken from hundreds of samples tested between 2000-2008.

http://www.equi-analytical.com/CommonFeedProfiles/default.asp

[Auventera Two]

I'm in agreement with that information. However, and I don't care what kind of feed it is, I do not want to see wheat middlings, peanut hulls or any other crap filler within the first 5 or so ingredients. The only fillers acceptable to me within the first 5 are rice bran and beet pulp. Period. The other stuff can be in there depending on what kind of feed it is ("complete" etc), but some type of decent grain needs to be among the first ingredients.

Well you'd be damned glad to see "crap fillers" in the first 5 ingredients if you were trying to keep a foundered horse alive. ;)

The whole POINT of feeding a lite, or low starch feed it to get away from the grains and molasses.

And - you think that XTN is a low starch feed? :eek: :lol: I have read it's around 25%, though I haven't called Nutrena to ask. Even SafeChoice, which is full of "crap fillers" and marketed as a low NSC feed is around 22-26%. (depending on your source of info.) I feed Wellsolve L/S which is around 10-11%. (Can't remember right now what the company told me.)

Go join the equinecushings group and tell them you're going to feed foundered horses XTN and see what they say. If you gave my foundered horse a single pound of XTN, she'd be lame for the next 3 days. She could not eat SafeChoice without getting lame either. Wellsolve L/S is the ONLY one that she can have a whole pound of at dinner time with the other horses and have no adverse reaction.

I feed XTN to my endurance horse when she's in full work. I'd never consider giving it to my foundered horse. The acronym stands for (extreme nutrition - per my Nutrena rep), so why should something that's "extreme nutrition" be low in sugar? The Nutrena Rep said they sell it to a lot of Arab halter barns to really put the shine on coats, and also to endurance riders whose horses are harder keepers and need more fat. No, it's not loaded with molasses like other sweet feeds are, but it's still definitely not low NSC. I mix it with soaked beet pulp and alfalfa cubes because it is SO high in fat.

But I still find it funny that you feed XTN considering distillers grains are in the top 5, which after all is cheap crap! LMAO

[Auventera Two]

Well, Gabz, you sure are making a lot of generalizations about me without getting all your facts.
Sorry I didn't post a whole lifetime of horse experience that went into the decision to feed what I do on this thread.
FWIW, it was Seminole feed they used for the water demonstration. They were illustrating what can happen with pellets when mixed with water, and backing it up by showing the number of impaction colics they were seeing that they believed were related to pellets and not drinking enough water.
I'm not a big fan of beet pulp generally, which is why I don't feed just beet pulp. At least it's natural and not overly processed, which is the main thing I don't like about pellets. I just plain don't like pellets, period. Some folks do, and that's fine for them.
Overall beet pulp is in the feed and I am very happy with the XTN overall. I don't feed beet pulp alone.
There isn't any corn in XTN, so crushed or not it's not an issue.
Some people asked me some questions, I tried to answer them, that is all.

Like I said, people know their own situation and their horses, and they can do what they think is best.

First - I soak EVERYTHING. Horses never get any feed dry - EVER.

Next - I love XTN. It's a great feed. But it's suitable for my endurance horse during heavy work - NOT for my foundered lawn ornament. Different feeds suit different needs. The "cheap crap filler" to which you refer, assists some of us in keeping our horses alive. Just think about that. ;)

[monstrpony]

“The bottom line is, feeding DDGS to horses is not recommended unless it’s been tested for fumonisin and contains less than 5 parts per million, and then it should only comprise a small percentage of the total diet" she concluded." > end quote

Somehow, I have this sneaking suspicion that feed companies, who are NOT interested in killing our horses, have covered this base when they use DDG in horse feeds. That is, quite literally, what we pay them for. At some point, you have to decide whether or not you trust the feed companies to have our interests somewhat at heart, at least to the extent of not killing our animals outright, and then decide which ones you trust the most, and go from there. Or, you can buy plain ingredients and mix your own feed. Me, I don't have an analytical chemistry lab in my basement, so I'd just as soon pay TC, Purina, Blue Seal, Nutrena, whoever to do the analysis, make sure the fumonisin level is tolerable and that the sulfur and phosphorus is balanced, etc., and trust their results. Just sayin'.

Purina fumbled the ball pretty badly not too long ago, so I'm feeding TC right now. Blue Seal has done some good development on their feeds of late, according to my vet, so I'm considering looking at them again, as there is a much closer dealer than for TC. Our local Nutrena source is new, so I'm waiting to see if they will survive long term, but my general impression is that Nutrena is still a bit behind the eightball on the NSC issue. So, I'm feeding TC for the time being.

[okggo]

You know, one thing the RB's have done that I love, is raise peoples awareness about feeds and nutrition.

I remember 20 odd years ago I boarded at a large barn that feed a misc pelleted all-stock (maybe horse) feed. We are talking 50+ horses on this, hay and pasture. Nobody questioned it. We have come a long way since then, and whether the feed industry chooses to add by-products to add palatability or not, the quality of feeds we have available today are so much better and more thought out.

I've ended up switching to whole grains (I do a BP, alfalfa pellet, barley combo) and a vit/mineral supplement. It's a PITA to feed it (mixing everything, soaking, etc) but I'm happy with how my horses are looking. For people that don't have the ability to do this day in and day out, the complete feeds and RBs provide an alternative that is specifically designed to keep horses healthy. Whether or not they use the purest and bestest (yeah I know) ingredients, it is still light years beyond where we were even 10 years ago, so we are going in the right direction! I bet another 5 or more years there will even more feeds designed specifically for horses with allergies/food sensitivities (i.e soy) that stem beyond corn, alfalfa, etc. It's a slow process but I think the horse feed industry has come a long way, and yes still have a way to go.

[SLW]

Montsrpony- I agree w/ you and have no idea what that researcher has seen to make her come out w/ the warning....unless it is what we have seen which is straight distillers corn being fed to a horse.

It is all about trust isn't it??

[Melyni]

Appreciate your expertise & just above I clarified that feeding straight distillers grain is the main problem. Thanks.

K-State news release:

snip

“The bottom line is, feeding DDGS to horses is not recommended unless it’s been tested for fumonisin and contains less than 5 parts per million, and then it should only comprise a small percentage of the total diet" she concluded." > end quote

The DDS is tested at the facility it comes from, and is then cooked again at our end. Plus in the Quiessence it should only comprise a very small percentage of the diet. You feed 2-4 oz and that only has 22% DDS, so the horse gets less than an ounce!

In 12 years of making Quiessence I have never had any kind of problem with high fumensin and only ever had 6-7 adverse events reported. Those were mostly allergy to one of the proteins, that gave the horses hives, and I suspect that was DDS made from barley as there are horses out there allergic to barley.

As a member of NASC we have to report an adverse events on the National Adverse Event Reporting System, which tracks all adverse events no matter how insignificant.

Quiessence is very very safe.

YOurs
MW

[BornToRide]

Look, Gabz, some people asked me questions earlier in the thread about my earlier post. I tried to answer their questions. I'm sorry that you didn't like the answer.
. Yeah, really what's up with that Gabz? I also dislike feeding processed feeds because I have no idea where the ingredients were sourced and I do not want to feed my horses crap either, that includes potential GMO food crops, like corn and soy and never mind other ingredients that may have been sourced in China!

Unless the label specifically states where the ingredients came from I will be suspicious of any feed and feed as organic as I possibly can, as in pesticide free and as little as processed as possible!

You are what you eat and you are what you breathe. Garbage in, garbage out. Your horse may do seemingly fine on his feed for a while, only for health issues to catch up later. By then it has become very hard to make a possible connection, unless there's research to support that.

And I most certainly would stay away from wheat middlings if I had an IR sensitive horse.

I do not want to take that potential risk. If you and others do, fine - totally your choice, just like Jaegermonster said! :yes:

[mammadoc]

i have to say- this has been a very interesting and informative post and lots of food for thought.(or should i say "feed" for thought, hardy har:lol:)

additionally, next time i sip on a nice dry bombay sapphire martini-
i can tell myself that i might just be contributing to the horse feed industry!:D

thanks for all of the responses, and even though not everyone sees eye to eye on subject-it's all interesting. gotta love the coth forum- good stuff!

[LarkspurCO]

Somehow, I have this sneaking suspicion that feed companies, who are NOT interested in killing our horses, have covered this base when they use DDG in horse feeds. That is, quite literally, what we pay them for.

Agree.

I still like some of the Purina products, but large-scape manufacturers do seem more prone to quality control problems. I don't know whether there's any proof that the risk of fumonisin/mycotoxin contamination is any greater in horse feeds with DDGs versus a COB or sweet feed or pellet containing corn. It's all about handling, testing and quality control.

One of my horses did well on Ultium but I switched to Progressive. My goats get Enrich 32. The tags on both of the Progressive products I feed list wheat middlings and distillers dried grains. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

[SLW]

Melyni- thank you for providing the info on Quiessence! I have had excellent results using it with my favorite little mare and it is good to read that it has safety nets built in the production line.

[monstrpony]

additionally, next time i sip on a nice dry bombay sapphire martini- i can tell myself that i might just be contributing to the horse feed industry!:D

Hey, wait a minute--isn't gin made from fermenting juniper berries? I hope my DDG isn't coming from THAT source. Better switch to good ol' Kentucky bourbon whiskey if you want to help the horse feed industry.;)

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3848095]Well you'd be damned glad to see "crap fillers" in the first 5 ingredients if you were trying to keep a foundered horse alive. ;)

Go join the equinecushings group and tell them you're going to feed foundered horses XTN and see what they say. /QUOTE]


And again, for at least the third time, everyone has to evaluate their animals and their situation and do what they think is best, which is what i have done. Someone else posted that they don't have a lab and have to let the feed companies do the research and make the feed. ditto here. I didn't say XTN was the perfect feed, but it fits the best into what I need and what I want for my horses. Is it perfect? No. I would be happier without the distillers grains but oh well.

And I am a member of the equine cushings group, if you're referring to the one on yahoo, have been for about 5 years. But thanks for suggesting it. My vet is very involved in what my 31 yo Cushings TWH here is eating.

again, everyone has to decide what is best for their situation. If you guys want to gang up on me for what I'm feeding for whatever reason,go start your own thread. don't hijack, it's rude.

[rcloisonne]

again, everyone has to decide what is best for their situation. If you guys want to gang up on me for what I'm feeding for whatever reason,go start your own thread. don't hijack, it's rude.
The problem is YOU are the one who stated anything other whole grains and maybe beet pulp are junk and implied anyone using feeds containing stuff other than these things are short changing their horses. You also made several errors including the statements your feed was beet pulp based and low in starch. It is neither. You obviously buy into feed company propaganda without checking the facts for yourself. Nutrena's "Safe" Choice anyone? :dead:

If what you're feeding works for you and yours, great! It wouldn't work for a lot of horses though and your misguided, holier than thou attitude regarding suitable feed ingredients are what triggered the posts you are referring to as "rude". Get over yourself.

[Jaegermonster]

I'm not the only one who stated the opinion that middlings etc were less than ideal. But if I"m the easiest one for you to vent your spleen on then fine. I don't imply things, if I have something to say I say it out right. If people inferred things that is their problem. I wrote what i wrote. And in my other posts I also stated "IIRC" and that it has been awhile since I looked at all the feeds and that I may be mistaken as to the order of the ingredients.
XTN is a beet pulp based feed, open a bag and look at it for yourself.
None of which was the OP's question, I only posted it in response to a question another poster asked me. I would not have posted it otherwise since it isn't relevant to the OP's question.
People sure do like to read between the lines of other peoples posts and find things that aren't there.
And hijacking another person's thread, esp for a personal attack, is rude. So you get over yourself.

[BornToRide]

If what you're feeding works for you and yours, great! It wouldn't work for a lot of horses though and your misguided, holier than thou attitude regarding suitable feed ingredients are what triggered the posts you are referring to as "rude". Get over yourself.

Oh my, look who's talking ..... Takes one to know one, eh? :rolleyes:

The problem is YOU are the one who stated anything other whole grains and maybe beet pulp are junk and implied anyone using feeds containing stuff other than these things are short changing their horses. You also made several errors including the statements your feed was beet pulp based and low in starch. It is neither. You obviously buy into feed company propaganda without checking the facts for yourself. Nutrena's "Safe" Choice anyone? :dead:
That's not the problem - the problem is you, picking on her for what she dared to say. How about simply ignoring her if you do not agree?? Or simply state WHY you disagree without attack. No reason to become personal each time with people you disagree with!

So she said there's a lot of junk in horse feeds. And there is, no doubt about it. It is a VERY unregulated industry.

[Jaegermonster]

Thank you BTR. I never said I was perfect. I tried only to answer questions that were asked of me to the best of my abilities and to make it clear in my postings that I do what I do because I feel it is appropriate for my own situation and why I feel that way (since I was asked) and that everyone needs to do what they think is best for them and their situation.

[mammadoc]

ok monster- make that martini a nice manhattan instead!:D works for me!

[JB]

Like JB, I'd like to hear more about this Jaegermonster. My feeling is that if it is truly a COMPLETE feed, which are incredibly popular with COTH'ers, it would make perfect sense for one of the top 5 ingredients to be a relatively indigestible form of fiber
Did you really mean to say "indigestible"? One of the important things about complete feeds is to have *digestible* fiber, since presumably the horse is eating it largely because of a lack of sufficient hay or grass. Obviously it's not long-stem fiber, but even the short-stem fiber is important, just doesn't do the same beneficial things the l-s does.

OTOH, I do think this reveals something important for those who are NOT using Complete feeds as true "complete" feeds (meaning replacement for all grain AND all hay). If the horse is already getting ample long-stem hay, maybe a high quantity of indigestible fiber sources in the grain is just a lame substitute for having more hay or a grass-based pellet. This would explain volumes about why the same horse can subsist on 6 pounds of complete feed OR 1.5 lbs of ration balancer + more hay.
Not sure I follow :confuse: Indigestible fiber is indigestible - can help some with gut mobility (motility?) but provides nothing in the way of nutrition or calories.

i just talked to a tc rep and she told me that their distiller's dried grains are by-products of alcohol producer's industry.
Exactly :) The sugars have been (mostly) extracted (like beet pulp) and are therefore a nice LOW NSC feed to add for some calories, which is VERY important to metabolic horses. That doesn't mean more is better though ;) But some can be great for a lot of horses.

Ok I'm going to try to address everybodys questions.
I don't eat a lot of processed foods myself and neither do my animals. I don't feed pellets, nor do I feed "complete" feeds. I feed Nutrena XTN and free choice hay, and during the right times of year I have nice grass.
Right there, XTN is a processed feed. I thought you were opposed to things like that, especially given the ingredient list? I'm not saying the XTN is bad or wrong, lots like it. But you've contradicted yourself a bit in all this.

A couple reasons why I don't feed pellets: we have a mill here in my area that makes the feed. I went there once in response to an alarm going off (which ended up being accidental) and saw with my own eyes the employees sweeping the floor and dumping the floor sweep into the pellet machine, that was in operation at the time. I want to see what my horses are eating.
So I agree, don't feed THOSE pellets. But you seem to imply that because of this, all pelleted feeds are bad, which is a really bad leap. There are many pelleted feeds that are made under very strict guidelines.

I also went to a nutrition clinic at a vet hospital and they did a demonstration where they took a small mason jar with a cup of pellets and a small mason jar with a cup of sweet feed.
Then they filled both jars up with water. The pellets ended up the consistency of peanut butter and nasty.
Another bad leap to conclusions here. I can make any pelleted feed look like peanut butter with too little water. But add MORE water ;) and you get "soup". Guess what - add just a little water to rice bran (part of the XTN you feed) and you can get "peanut butter" too ;)

As far as the rice bran/beet pulp filler issue, I think both of those are quality ingredients. I much prefer them to be used as a "filler", although I'm well aware they can both be fed alone or also as a supplement, as opposed to peanut hulls or wheat middlings, which to me is floor sweepings.
Peanut hulls and wheat middlings are NOT floor sweepings!!! They don't magically appear on the floor due to processing, say, corn! They are by-products that get sent into their own little chutes as a result of processing peanuts and wheat. I agree I wouldn't want to feed those things unless I had a really compelling reason, but the reason for not feeding them is the lack of real nutritional value.

I also think that beet pulp and rice bran are also more able to be utilized by the horse, as opposed to floor sweepings.
Floor sweepings is a very broad label. Dust bunnies aren't very nutritious ;) NOTHING swept off the floor *in general* is suitable to feed. But if there are places in a mill where there is overspill from conveyer belts or bins where the real ingredients fall out, it's perfectly acceptable to sweep those up and put then back in.

I have also found that the feeds with wheat middling, peanut hulls etc as fillers are also often less expensive than the feeds that use more quality ingredients as fillers.
Well yeah, because they are cheap ingredients. That does not mean the feed product itself is poor quality - there is more to the ingredient list than these 2 things.

I guess the bottom line is everyone needs to evalute their situation, their budget, their animals and the feeds they are interested in to find what is best for their situation.
Absolutely. Just dont't go making generalized statements based on a few individual experiences ;)

[quote=Jaegermonster;3847177]It's a low starch, hi fat feed, here it is:

Nutrena XTN Ingredients:
Flaked Oats, Brewers Rice, Flaked Barley,
With oats (50% nsc) and barley (66% nsc) as 2 of the first 3 ingredients, while it may be lower than 30% nsc, I would not believe it is low nsc at all.

[gabz]

Thanks JB. You have more patience than I. You expressed it very well.

[Auventera Two]

I'm not the only one who stated the opinion that middlings etc were less than ideal. But if I"m the easiest one for you to vent your spleen on then fine. I don't imply things, if I have something to say I say it out right. If people inferred things that is their problem. I wrote what i wrote. And in my other posts I also stated "IIRC" and that it has been awhile since I looked at all the feeds and that I may be mistaken as to the order of the ingredients.
XTN is a beet pulp based feed, open a bag and look at it for yourself.
None of which was the OP's question, I only posted it in response to a question another poster asked me. I would not have posted it otherwise since it isn't relevant to the OP's question.
People sure do like to read between the lines of other peoples posts and find things that aren't there.
And hijacking another person's thread, esp for a personal attack, is rude. So you get over yourself.

In case you didn't notice - SOYBEAN HULLS are before beet pulp on the XTN ingredient list. You're feeding your horses this cheap crap filler that you hate so much.

And XTN is not beet pulp based, and nor is it low NSC. Beet pulp is the 8th ingredient on the list.

[gabz]

Wheat middlings are the left over crap after the wheat is processed to be bread or cereal or whatever else it is going to be.


I'm not the only one who stated the opinion that middlings etc were less than ideal.

But you did say that WM are "less than ideal". You said they are left over crap.

You didn't say - they are the leftover by-product, or a filler, or a low-nsc feed product, yada yada. You called them crap when someone asked what they were.

[BornToRide]

But you did say that WM are "less than ideal". You said they are left over crap.

You didn't say - they are the leftover by-product, or a filler, or a low-nsc feed product, yada yada. You called them crap when someone asked what they were.Yeah, yada, yada, yada over semantics. :sleepy: :lol:

[Jaegermonster]

I had a great day riding here in Sunny FL while you guys were overanalyzing my posts. But glad y'all care so much about what I think and what I say. You must be snowed in or something.

Ok, the word "processed" as I used it in the context of this thread means pellets, like a hot dog, you can't see whats in them.
Of course all feeds are "processed" to an extent, even whole grains or they wouldn't be in the bag if we are going to play semantics.
Never said there weren't some pellets that were good blah blah blah,just said I don't like them and they won't work for me, and offered a few examples.

I didn't "imply" anything about anything, I can't help the way others choose to read things into what I say. If people are sensitive about what they feed that's not my problem.
read what I wrote and take it at face value.

And all of this is a great example of why folks should take info they get from strangers on a bb for what's it's worth. Do your own research and get your own facts and decide what's best for you and your animals.

Hey Mammadoc, that manhattan was mighty good, think there's a couple others here that could use one or two? ;)

[JB]

Ok, the word "processed" as I used it in the context of this thread means pellets, like a hot dog, you can't see whats in them.
Can you SEE what's in your XTN? ;)

Of course all feeds are "processed" to an extent, even whole grains or they wouldn't be in the bag if we are going to play semantics.
No, not really. Whole grains are handled, they are not "processed" like is the implication of this thread, nor the general implication when talking about horse feed.

Never said there weren't some pellets that were good blah blah blah,just said I don't like them and they won't work for me, and offered a few examples.
You offered 2 REALLY poor situations as the reasoning behind you not using pellets - saw literal floor sweepings at one mill, and saw pellets turned to "peanut butter" because of too little water. Those are simply reasons not to use feed from mills like that, and a good reason why the amount of water (in anything!) is important.

[Jaegermonster]

Can you SEE what's in your XTN? ;)


You offered 2 REALLY poor situations as the reasoning behind you not using pellets - saw literal floor sweepings at one mill, and saw pellets turned to "peanut butter" because of too little water. Those are simply reasons not to use feed from mills like that, and a good reason why the amount of water (in anything!) is important.

Yes actually I can. Not the vitamins and stuff, of course, but I can see the grains.


And so I guess besides the two examples I offered, (and in the water one there was much more to it that helped to reinforce the fact that I don't like pellets, it wasn't a deal breaker) the fact that I just don't like pellets isn't good enough? You'll just have to accept that and move on from it.

[JB]

Yes actually I can. Not the vitamins and stuff, of course, but I can see the grains.
You can see the grains, great. Can you see the rice bran? The beet pulp? The soybean hulls? That's what I'm saying. You have a strong preference to have, and apparently see, grains in your feed. Fine. No problem. But to say "I want to SEE what's in the food" and then really mean "I just want to see the grains"...


And so I guess besides the two examples I offered, the fact that I just don't like pellets isn't good enough? You'll just have to accept that and move on from it.Who said I had a problem with you having a problem with pellets? I'm saying that you offered up 2 very specific examples of poorly handled pellets and declared that's why you won't use pellets. I'm not here to change your mind. I am merely saying that your 2 examples are of bad management, and do not inherently make pellets bad.

[Auventera Two]

Yes actually I can. Not the vitamins and stuff, of course, but I can see the grains.

No you can't because XTN is a "processed" feed with "nuggets". The feed looks nothing like a traditional sweet feed at all.

[Jaegermonster]

Who said I had a problem with you having a problem with pellets? I'm saying that you offered up 2 very specific examples of poorly handled pellets and declared that's why you won't use pellets. I'm not here to change your mind. I am merely saying that your 2 examples are of bad management, and do not inherently make pellets bad.

I never said that those two examples were the sole and only reasons why I don't like pellets. You ASSumed and inferred. That is your problem not mine.
Those examples were just that, examples, and offered in answer to a question posed by another poster who asked me "why".
And I never said that those two examples, or my personal opinion, "make pellets bad".
Again, you ASSumed and inferred something that wasn't there.

[Jaegermonster]

No you can't because XTN is a "processed" feed with "nuggets". The feed looks nothing like a traditional sweet feed at all.

You don't know what I can see unless you can look out of my eyes. Yes there is a nugget, but there is also grain. It's not traditional sweet feed, so of course it doesn't look like it.
You can see the grains in it in the bag I just opened this morning.

[Jaegermonster]

I'm sure there are just many people who can jump in and say that sweet feed is bad and they refuse to feed it for any variety of reasons, or they only feed oats or they only feed senior feed to everything for any reason under the season. That doesn't make their preference bad, or wrong, or their opinion invalid.

We all have a preference and we all have an opinion on what we think is best for our horses and why we do things the way we do them. Hopefully people have looked into things before getting to that point, and there are any variety of factors that influence people's choices and opinions.

[gabz]

I'm sure there are just many people who can jump in and say that sweet feed is bad and they refuse to feed it for any variety of reasons, or they only feed oats or they only feed senior feed to everything for any reason under the season. That doesn't make their preference bad, or wrong, or their opinion invalid.

We all have a preference and we all have an opinion on what we think is best for our horses and why we do things the way we do them. Hopefully people have looked into things before getting to that point, and there are any variety of factors that influence people's choices and opinions.

And that's exactly it. A person asked what is this ingredient. That person was asking in order to help him/her determine if a particular feed was what they wanted/needed. It's VERY hard to make a choice if someone says - "that's crap" without being given factual information.

JM you have contradicted yourself all over the place in order to rationalize your choice. No one disagrees with your choice. I am disagreeing with how you chose to describe something when someone was - in your words - "looking into things".

If a child asks "Why is grass green" and is given the answer - "Because I really like the color green. Those other colors are crap." ... well - that certainly doesn't answer the child's question, does it?

[JB]

And that's exactly it. A person asked what is this ingredient. That person was asking in order to help him/her determine if a particular feed was what they wanted/needed. It's VERY hard to make a choice if someone says - "that's crap" without being given factual information.
Well said.

JM you have contradicted yourself all over the place in order to rationalize your choice. No one disagrees with your choice. I am disagreeing with how you chose to describe something when someone was - in your words - "looking into things".

If a child asks "Why is grass green" and is given the answer - "Because I really like the color green. Those other colors are crap." ... well - that certainly doesn't answer the child's question, does it?

Exactly.

[Jaegermonster]

I'm not the only one who referred to the stuff as crap so I guess I just wonder why it's such a big deal that i said it, as opposed to the others.

Anyway, it is what it is, the question has been asked and answered. This pedantic drivel over semantics is really starting to bore me, plus it's hijacking and still as rude as it was the first time. So if you want to keep it going start your own thread.

[ILoveJamie]

Wheat middlings may not be the worst of the ingredients, but anything hydrolyzed or autolyzed as well as things like "soy isolates" are members of the glutamaic acid family (the same as MSG - monosodium glutamate) and are destructive to the nervous system and are best avoided. We had been using TC Lite on our Welsh/Arab pony for five years and he has slowly been developing copious amounts of sarcomas including many in the genitalia region. The vets have not been hopeful nor helpful with this and we are now left with ways to "clean him up from the inside out" as our only remaining VIABLE recourse. Surgery is out as it will be ineffective and cause the tumors to return with a vengeance. One of the first things I am doing is removing processed grains from his diet (in my pony's case--TC Lite) and put him on just pasture and some high quality supplements to try to help him heal. I no longer have faith in this product, unfortunately, so horseowner beware. Please let me know if anyone else is experiencing similar problems. These tumors did not show up until we had been feeding him for at least a year and a half on this product.:(