Barn managers, workers...what would you do?

[pattir7]

Ok... so I work at my boarding barn and do a lot of the feeding/care of the horses there. There is one horse there who is a walking description of a cushings horse.. thick cresty neck, insanely thick hair coat, very dropped back, huge hay belly... just looks awful. He is older too...but not sure how old. Completely retired... and does nothing other than be a pasture pet. The owner has feed directions on her card.. 1 scoop grain AM/PM and a total of 9 flakes hay/day. He is gaining weight at an alarming rate....he was already overweight. She has 5 other horses who are also insanely overweight and don't work at all.. I just work there.. I try to keep my mouth shut over such things.. another boarder excitadly asked when her mare's baby was due... :eek: She took offense to it...

On one hand I want to tell her to get some chasteberry for her cushings horse (or at least get him tested) and cut back at least on the grain... on the other, I don't want her to take offense. Yet it is really hard for me to keep feeding him like that and watching him get fatter and fatter. My own horse in full work does not get near as much... and he is in great weight...

What do other barn managers do? Do you bring it up? Or do you keep your mouth shut and just do as the owner has on their card?

[coloredhorse]

If you are the BO/BM, you are certainly within your rights to ask -- even insist -- that the owner get a vet's diagnosis and treatment plan for the possible Cushings case. You can even suggest feeding changes to the other horses (or even just implement them based on your best judgement and have info on the current feed program available to the owner, depending on the precise type of operation and degree of control the BM has versus the owner).

The BO/BM, if s/he has serious concerns about a horse's care can even insist that continued boarding at this particular farm will be contingent upon the boarder falling in line with what the BO/BM feels is a more reasonable program.

If your are merely a worker, the appropriate action is to express your concerns to your boss, then muzzle it. If the owner asks you directly or engages you in conversation about the health of her horses, you may offer friendly opinions or suggestions.

But end of the day, the horses' owner is the one with final responsibility for their care and must make her/his own call on what s/he thinks is the best route to take.

[M. O'Connor]

I would be advising the owner that it's time to call in a vet, and suggest a drastically scaled back feed ration.

BM's and BO's have a responsibility to the owner to keep horses as healthy and fit as they possibly can, which includes pointing out to an owner that an animal can literally be killed with kindness.

[iluvdrummers]

Maybe the owner is not aware of cushings. My least favorite trend on the A circuit(and life) is fat=happy. Not true. I am forever battling the trainer at the facility i manage.

[silver2]

iluvdrummers is right- a lot of people think obese is a good shape for a horse these days.

I would probably just feed the horse half of what she says and tell her he's just getting too much. And to get a vet out.

[Sansena]

I agree with others, except at the time of the conversation telling her to get the vet, I'd hand her a printout of a description of Cushing's, which outlines symptoms and diseases it can contribute to (ie: laminitis). I'm sure Horse.com or a similar website would have one.

I'd also highlight the areas especially of concern.

If she gets offended by that, she's an idiot. If she neglects to get her horse proper care, as BO/ BM, I'd seriously consider having her leave. If things are bad as you say, it's tantamount to neglect and I wouldn't want my facility affiliated with an owner such as that.

[Nibs]

If it were me I would just feed the horse less. If she complains when he gets to a resonable weight, either send her to speak with a vet who may talk some sense into her, or ask her to leave.

I know a lot of people will say it is wrong to go against an owners orders, but in this case it is our responsibility to do something for this horse who can not help himself. If the owner was asking you to starve the horse and you had to watch it eat shavings all day while slowly dying of starvation, what would you do? If I am the one dishing out the food, I would feed it more. It is my responsibility as the human taking care of these domesticated horses.

[Bayou Roux]

The barn owner is the one who has the contract with the boarder; it is his/her responsibility to discuss feeding and care of the boarder's horses.

If you have concerns, your recourse is to talk with the BO about them, and, await the result of those conversations, and follow orders. If the BO and boarder do not change the plan, and you truly believe the horses are in danger, you should explain that you cannot in good conscience provide the care the boarder is requesting for those horses and ask that someone else be responsible for them.

As a worker in the barn, hard as it is, you have no right to change the horses' feeding plan, or to "just feed less." And as a fellow boarder, you run the risk of being the pain-in-the-neck-know-it-all boarder who offers unsolicited advice if you go directly to the boarder about her horses' feed regimen. The BO has the responsibility to provide proper care and, if it requires it, education for the owner about what that means. The BO needs to talk to the boarder and get it vetted out.

That said about your situation, if these horses are in a barn I own, I've long ago had this conversation with the boarder, and pestered and pestered until she either gives in and vets these horses out and feeds them appropriately or is so badgered she leaves. Why hasn't your Barn Owner done this?

ETA: I absolutely commend you for being so concerned and conscientious about these horses-- that's the kind of care we all hope for in our barns. It's just absolutely the barn owner's responsibility to educate and legislate the behavior of her boarders.

[Houdini1220]

I must say that I am shocked at how many people would suggest changing the horse's diet and not telling to owner. The owner is paying for a service, if a barn wants the right to regulate diet without owner's approval that should be stipulated in writing in a boarding agreement. Things like that should be decided BEFORE any money is exchanged. If I was under the impression that I was in charge of deciding my horse's diet and then found out that the horse wasn't getting what I asked, I would be livid.

However, I also feel that any BO has the right to ask someone to leave if they do not feel that they are doing right by their horse. If the BO feels this is a real problem, and the health of the horse is an issue, TALKS TO THE WOMAN, and she still will not change anything then I would give her 30 days to find a new place to keep her horses.

I would also contact my vet or local animal protection agency and see if there are any laws that protect the horse in a case like this.

[chai]

If you are the BM or BO, you are well within your rights to speak up. I have a 34 year old gelding with Cushing's, and you are right to be concerned.

Have you taken her aside to point out the physical characteristics in her horse that are the clinical signs of Cushings? Does she know anything about Cushings? Perhaps if you can describe the danger and possible finality of a Cushing's related Laminitis, she will understand the damage she is doing to her horse by not testing for and treating this.

Do you have a working relationship with a veterinarian who might be able to give you information on Cushing's or back you when you speak to the horse's owner? It sounds like she loves her horses, but maybe she just needs to learn more about this disease. Your responsibility as the BM is the health and well being of the horses in your care, so by all means speak up. Good luck.

[BoysNightOut]

I have worked in several barns, was a BM at one of them. Anytime I had concern for a horse, I would always speak to the BO first. I'd never think of changing a horse's diet without speaking to the BO first....it's not your place, since you are a worker there.

That said, if it was a severe enough issue for the horse where I'd find myself having a hard time following orders without feeling like I was harming the horse, I'd say time to find another barn to work at....

[Valentina_32926]

I would probably just feed the horse half of what she says and tell her he's just getting too much.

Yup - and if she ignores you continue feeding 1/2 of what she tells you to. If she starts complaining he's dropping weight tell her it may be his teeth, old age or she should get the vet out.

Then when the vet arrives tell them you believe he has Cushings. I did (i.e. told Vet I believed my pony had Cushings), vet tested and my pony DID have Cushings.

[IronwoodFarm]

I had this exact situation a couple of years ago. We had an older part Arabian mare who was presenting as a classic Cushings case. The owner was on a trip down De Nile. Eventually, she did get tested for Cushings (positive) and was put on Pergolide. She has responded well to medication.

It took TIME to get the owner to the point she would test. As the BO, I spent time educating her on Cushings. COTH has a nice issue on the topic in the last year or so. I gave her literature and talked about it periodically. Not pushy, but just suggesting that her hairiness may indicate something. I also has support from the vet, who worked on educating this owner. We just kept talking about it, but not every moment.

It is important to understand that for some owners, Cushings, is a really scary thing. For my boarder, she considered it a death sentence and was very concerned that medication would be too expensive. She needed education and time to assimulate that knowledge. Finally she saw it. It took about a year.

Things I did not do: change the horse's feed without consulting the owner. I did make some change suggestions but never instituted them without her prior agreement. I didn't insist on the vet being called out immediately. While Cushings will eventually kill a horse, a lot of other things will kill the horse first. I also didn't take an "I told you so" attitude after the diagnosis. I worked with her to be sure her mare got medication.

[pattir7]

Thanks for the advice everyone!! For the record, I would never change a horse's feed without the owner's consent... I would be PISSED if someone did that to me (treat others as you want to be treated).

Unfortunately, though I am not the barn manager or owner, the owner is new to horses and looks to me and a co-worker to advise him. So I guess I consider myself 'barn advisor'.. for whatever that implies.

So.. as it turns out, another horse she has... my favorite of the bunch... has foundered. She is an elderly Morgan....beautiful girl... and she repeatadly founders. The owner claims she tested negative for Cushings... but she clearly has some sort of metabolic condition that she keeps foundering... Well... the mare is in a lot of pain.. classic foundering stance.. and the owner isn't having the vet out until NEXT WEEK!!!! OMG!:confused: I can't stand it. And... she doesn't even have any bute for her... just Yucca powder.

Has a pony too that founders repeatadly... and the one I started this thread with is next.

What pains me most is knowing that it doesn't have to be this way. I believe all of them could be helped if the owner would get serious about getting proper medical care for them. I've known cushings horses that are 34 years old and quite comfortable... even working a little... and at 34 years old, you wouldn't even know he *had* cushings. It doesn't have to be so scary...

So... what I have done is printed some information for her. I spoke to her on the phone just to express sympathy that one of her horses has foundered again...and tell her I printed something that may be helpful. As the saying goes...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink... you can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make them think! :no:

Please keep this little mare in your thoughts... I sure do...

[silver2]

I'm not suggesting you cut the feed without telling the owner. Tell the owner, then cut the feed. It's not up for arguement if the horse is obese.

[appaloosalady]

I have a new boarder who also thinks that fat horse = beautiful, healthy horse. I am feeding what she wants her horse to have, but will also be talking to her about my concerns about feeding a fat horse as much feed as he is getting. If that horse founders, etc., I want to make sure that I made my concerns clear and concise way ahead of time. I am hoping, of course, that she will make some changes to his feed and exercise regime, but the bottom line remains the same - he is her horse, not mine.

[SonnysMom]

I was at one barn where the owner wanted OTTB to have no grain. She felt that when horse was getting grain she was getting too hot. More like horse was gaining weight and feeling better so now had energy. Horse was getting all the good quality hay it could eat but wasn't going to gain on just that.
Barn owner told horse owner if you want to board here the horse get fed what it needs to maintain a decent weight. Either the horse gets grain or horse leaves. BO did not want an underweight horse to be associated with her barn. Horse owner took horsey somewhere else.
Horse was new to this owner who had only been riding a few years and this was her first horse. But the rescue she got the horse from overhorsed her and told her don't feed the horse any grain or it will get hot.

If I were a BO/BM I would have in my contract that the horse will be fed and amount of food appropriate to maintain a health weight as determined by either me or the vet. If you want the horse excessively fat or thin then do it somewhere else.

appaloosalady- I don't mean to pick on you but what happens when horse founders and owner runs around saying you overfed her horse and made it founder? Do you worry about how this might impact your reputation?

[LDavis104]

Here's what I would do - tell the horse owner, hey I noticed your horses seem to be gaining a lot of weight, especially the pony. I think we should probably cut back their feed. The pony actually looks like he could have cushings disease, have you heard of it? No? It's xyz and etc. etc. I'm really concerned about the horses and would like to bring their food down to xyz amount.

If she agrees to cut back on feed, good. If not, I think you should continue to feed how the owner wants her horses to be fed. If they're way fat, you've brought it to her attention and nothing more you should do. Do NOT cut back on food and tell her you're still feeding same amount (although it sounds like you aren't planning to do that). If the agreement is that the barn will feed what the owner wants fed, then do that. If the agreement is that the barn manager determines how much each horse is fed then do that. If neither was actually agreed to, I would default to what the owner wants.

[pattir7]

This saga continues...

Well, the mare was foundered for a week before this boarder had the vet out.. during this week the mare was so sore, she layed down most of the time. Vet finally came.. and boarder tried to blame it on our 'green' hay because horses don't founder in the winter. Vet took one look at her mare, the hay.. and said it is metabolic and if you don't treat it, she will never get better. So vet prescribes special feed for her, laminex supplement, and leaves a 3 day supply of the paste banamine...while she takes blood, xrays and runs tests (I have no idea what the vet said the results were). All of this just layed out on the floor in front of her stall. Our barn doesn't nickel and dime people to death...charging for every single thing.. in fact, we don't charge for any extras... just ask people to be reasonable.. i.e. premix your supplements. If it is one supplement, we'll open the container and scoop the daily dose.. but more than one (including things like bute or banamine), we ask people to premix. If it is JUST bute or banamine, we just ask people either provide the paste or powder. Everyone does.. no issue.. except this one. Well the banamine ran out and once again, poor mare is so sore she can hardly stand.. owner brings bute tablets the next day.. umm... just what am I supposed to do with tablets? :confused:

So... I finally call her.. and tell her... her mare is not going to eat the tablets.. to which she says.. she will if you crush them... ummm... with what?? Then she says dissolve them in water.. to which I say.. "we simply don't have the time to be doing that... can you please premix it with your supplements? I asked you to do it this fall when she foundered before"... to which she says, very snottily... 'ok, I get the message' and hangs up on me. Ugh. We truly want to help her get her mare better.. is it SO much to ask that she takes 15 minutes a week to grind some pills and mix her supplements? I do it for my own horse cause I don't have the time to screw with it at feeding time... every single other boarder happily does this for us.. I care... why can't she?? :confused::( It is frustrating...

[BoysNightOut]

Bute tablets are pretty easy to crush up. I used to do it with the lid of the bottle they came in.

I'd rather just take the extra 15 seconds to crush up the tablet then bother with the owner. Some people you just can't rationalize with, and it's not even worth it over something that takes 15 seconds of time.

But that's just me. In any case, Im sorry you have to deal with this! Good luck!

[SunshineAcres]

As the BO/BM, I make all decisions on the feed instructions. I'm the one with the horses every day. I have it written in my contract that the horses must be a 4/5 on the Henneke Body Condition Scoring Chart and that I have carte blanche when it comes to the feeding routine. I refuse to leave these choices up to the owners. I require all horses to be fed properly, including supplements they need. I won't allow the compromise of the horse's health for any reason.