two US t.b. sires recieve licensing approval

[fannie mae]

i have just gotten home from the westfalian licensing and the westfalian state stud introduced two american tb sires - they have already been shown to the public at the recent state stud stallion show and today they appeared at the verbands licensing committe to finally recieve their licensing approval.

here they are:

http://www.hengstparade.de/index.php?id=52&hengstid=194
http://www.pedigreequery.com/usurpator2

http://www.landgestuet.nrw.de/index.php?id=52&hengstid=189
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ratibor

since i know there are some very knowledgable tb people here from the states i would greatly appreciate if you could please provide some information about these two stallions with respect to pedigree and potential former influence of their damline within US sporthorse breeding as both of them are completely open books to me and apart from what is quoted about them in the thouroughbred database in know nothing about them.

one of them is said to have a race record, the other doesn't due to an accident.

if you had these stallions in the US what kind of mare would you breed to them and why?
and even more important:
what kind of mare would you NOT breed to them an why?

also, is there any evidence given with respect to both their bloodlines that they could jump or have any jumpers come from this bloodline in US sport horse breeding?
unfortunately, none of them was shown jumping at all which i consider a true lack of information, at least jumping at liberty could have given a tiny clue.
vineyridge?

thank you very much in advance - looking forward to your responses!

[Portia]

I'm not at all a TB expert, but Ratibor's dam line goes back to Hawaii, who produced Molokai, a top class international event horse.

[talloaks]

Well, they are both grey stallions with the Irish Caro in both pedigrees.

[vineyridge]

Usurpator is filled with what I'd call 'the usual suspects." The ones that we in the US have figured out are good for sport horses. Fappiano and Unbridled as tail male through Unbridled's Song. Caro as GGsire twice, top AND bottom AND sex balanced, through Trolley Song on top and Cozzene on the bottom. Caro is a notable sport horse sire, probably from his grandsire Grey Sovereign. The late TB stallion, Heroicity had multiple lines to Grey Sovereign, just as one very small example among many. Jumping talent would definitely come from Caro and Le Fabuleux on top and from pretty much all the horses on the bottom. For instance, the mare Blue Canoe, just as an example, is Jet Pilot on top and War Admiral on the bottom, and she was was bred to Sir Gaylord. All of those lines have produced multiple jumping horses, from steeplechasers to GP to eventers. Even the less well known lines like Lucky Mel are good. He traces to Hyperion's son Heliopolis on the top, and to Royal Charger as damsire. Incantation is sireline Princequillo, and the rest is almost as nice.

Unbridled's Song has a reputation for producing fragile racehorses; but since this guy will be bred to WB mares, that shouldn't be a problem. Eight Belles was an Unbridled's Song daughter and there are other track breakdowns of his get; but his reputation might just be based on a few high profile instances. I do know that I would never choose an Unbridled's Song offspring for steeplechasing just based on the reputation.

Usurpators damlines go back to the very great mother and daughter pair, Popinjay and Popingaol.

This is the sort of American pedigree that all of us would say bodes well for producing good, athletic, and talented sport horses. There isn't a line that doesn't show promise.

[camohn]

Thr first one, Usurpator (what an odd name!)
says Jumper all over it......Caro, more Caro, Prince John/Princequillo and Damascus are all TB leaper lines. Normally I am not a big fan of Mr. Prospector as he threw such a huge number of offspring with front leg correctness problems and subsequent soundness issues.....but not ALL his offspring were bad (only about 60% of them!) and Fappaino is probably the best of the lot of his sons for leg correctness and NOT throwing the soundness problems.....so if ya have to have Mr. P in there he is the best one to choose from. The saying here is that the Mr. Prospectors are great horses IF you get a sound one.
Mr. P hails from Raise A Native. Some of the other Raise a Native lines also have similar leg/soundness issues, but they also tend to be very good jumpers. Alydar
http://www.pedigreequery.com/alydar
in particular produces good jumpers and Aly Dark
http://www.pedigreequery.com/aly+dark
was on the US top Jumper sire list for a while (against WB sires). So...with Raise A Native lines my feelings about him are "once in a pedigree is good but you sure don't want to line breed it......." FWIW the Mr.P leg correctness problem seems to get better with each generation you get away from him so at least his offspring don't seem to be really prepotent for passing it on once you get to the grandkids and beyond. Still...Unbridled's Song in particular does have a rep for producing horses with fragile legs so I don't think he escaped the curse entirely. As Vineyridge posted about the same time....breeding him to WBs with more bone should help. You do have to be very careful with what legs you breed to him with TB mares though.

What I would not breed to him is a Hail To Reason line mare. The two nastiest stallions racing has seen in decades are Halo
http://www.pedigreequery.com/halo
and Silver Ghost
http://www.pedigreequery.com/silver+ghost
Halo is legendary for being purely mean. Obviously Silver Ghost got it from him but most of Halos other offspring are known for being "tough" but not being the evil SOB that Silver Ghost is.......so for whatever reason that combo did nothing to improve the disposition department!

[camohn]

The second horse, Ratibor:
Here we have the same Caro/Prince John cross that seems to be working well for the first stallion! There is Hawaii that was a good race sire, but as a sporthorse sire I don't know too much other than what an earlier poster already wrote. The good AND bad guy like RAN above is Sir Gaylord. For why go back to his grandsire Turn To. Turn To has produced some really good sporthorse lines and some that are known to be rather difficult in the tempement department.....and of course the worst Bad Boy of them all is Halo,noted above. Not all the Turn Tos are nasty or difficult though. Turn To had some very good sporthorse producing offspring in Sir Gaylord
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sir+gaylord
who is currently represented by this guy who is producing some good hunter jumpers
http://www.pedigreequery.com/i+am+the+game
so even linebreeding the Turn To there isn't hurting HIM any.........
Other successful hunter/jumper lines around today are
http://www.pedigreequery.com/roberto
http://www.pedigreequery.com/hail+the+pirates
and
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stop+the+music


I have no idea what made Halo so awful. Mahmoud/Almahmoud
are some of the best sporthorse lines out there.....it must be the damsire line
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cosmic+bomb
another line noted for being "difficult" is Nasrullah
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nasrullah
who hails from the same Phalaris line
and the Bold Ruler lines though very athletic have a deseved rep form being a "pro ride"
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bold+ruler
The Bold rulers are generally not mean......just hot, very intelligent and often quirky....it makes them "not easy".
Bold Ruler's dam side probably didn't help as Fair Play and Hastings were not exactly known for their lovely personalities.


So....in summary JUST based on pedigree....I would make sure I bred a mare with good front legs to the first stallion and good temperment to the second.

[TKR]

I can see the strong influence of Caro in the first stallion -- I think doubling up on that bloodline might negate some of the frailty assigned to Unbridled Song as well as "set the type". I saw Unbridled Song 5 years ago when my sister and I visited Lexington. He is certainly droolworthy from a sporthorse standpoint. I believe Eight Belles had more crosses to Mr. P, which made her more fragile than a horse bred like the stallion just approved.

On the second stallion, you again see the Caro as well as other good sport producers. Personally, I LOVED Lord Avie -- what a wonderful stallion. I handled a daughter of his at an Ocala Thoroughbred sale and cried when she was vanned away. She was spectacular. I really like his lines alot.

It looks like to me someone has done their homework and are looking to incorporate Caro into the warmbloods -- probably because of the success of Grey Sovereign and it is proven again through Caro. Smart move and a nice combination of bloodlines in both stallions. I would say that is a recipe for success.

[Foxtrot's]

Although they are getting to be rather far back in these pedigrees - one has Buckasser and the other has Turn-To - two who can be reliable passers on of jump. Neither one is a bad thing in a pedigree.

[Glorybee]

This is perhaps the most interesting thread I have read in a while! MY 6 year old mare has several of the above mentioned bloodlines. With that she gets many of the poor traits and many of the good traits. I'm hoping we finally have her number. She is very pretty, a great mover, nice over fences, but boy can she be a handful!

[vineyridge]

Denny Emerson's late stallion, Loyal Pal, who was used for eventing breeding was a Caro son. Sir Shostakovich is out of a Grey Sovereign mare.


Ratibor--Caro through Cozzene tail male, so everything in those lines that is good in Usurpator is equally promising in him. You also have linebreeding top and bottom to Sir Gaylord, and he is in the sire lines of such sport horse/steeplechasing progenitors as Sir Ivor (top class eventing) and Lord Gayle, sire of steeplechasing sires Strong Gale and Lord Americo. These are all low dosage horses who have excelled at what is now too long for US racing. Sir Gaylord is a son of Turn To, who was also the sire of Best Turn, a notable sport horse producer in jumpers and eventing, including Hand In Glove. Lord Avie was an excellent sire of racehorses and some have been chasers. Gallant Man was the sire of triple crown winner, Gallant Fox, who was the sire of triple crown winner, Omaha. Lord Avie has a reputation for producing soundness and late maturing race horses. He was most used on the East Coast, so maybe some of the Easterners will have more to say about him. As Portia said, Hawaii lines are sought after by eventers; he's one of Denny Emerson's favorite lines. Too Bald, who was a great broodmare, is closely linebred to Nasrullah, who was also Grey Sovereign's sire, and Nasrullah is one of the great jump producers of the twentieth century. Tom Fool was Buckpasser's sire, and Buckpasser is also one of those lines that sport horse breeders tend to seek out. Hand in Glove was damsire line to Buckpasser/Tom Fool. Diplomat Way is one of the great show hunter sires, and his lines are good for producing pretty and quiet jumpers in the hunter ring. DMK loves him.

Avie's Fancy was a very superior race mare with 21 starts and over $400,000 in earnings. She is the dam of a decent race horse named St. Averil by Saint Ballado, but her other foals have been duds on the track, including her three by Cozzene. In the damlines, there is a really good streak of broodmares for racing going from Hianne back to Astrology, or five generations.

I don't think Cozzene has made the same kind of impression as a sport horse sire that Caro did. But I could easily be wrong, as getting information in the US requires digging deep into what few sources are available.

[DMK]

in addition to all of the above, Ratibor goes back to Diplomat Way in the damline. To give you an idea of the Diplomat Way jump, the horse in my profile pic is out of a Diplomat Way mare. There are also a few Diplomat Way hunters in this country that come through it by the sire line through a nice hunter stallion that died a few years ago called Our Diplomat. Skip Away is also out of a DW mare and while he's a race horse sire, he's generally recognized as a superior athlete (it's a given that you don't win $9M with a lack of athleticism and soundness). Horses closely bred to DW that I have seen are generally very attractive "classic hunter" horses, a very trainable/ridable horse and a better than average mover (Edited to add JUMPER, I meant JUMPER, not mover!). I've seen movement from world class hunter to really bad (that would be mine ;) ). Also, I've been around more than a few and they are all like that.

Unbridled sons and Unbridled Song/his sons that are standing at stud seem to generally have a lovely topline that is maybe a bit shorter than the average american TB (American TBs generally are a bit more of a rectangle and I see more WBs as closer to a square in body frame). What I love about Unbridled/Unbridled Songs is a lot of them seem to have necks that are really well placed out of the shoulder - much higher placed than a lot of TBs who can be more level or even a bit downhill. On the negative side, I think their necks, while excellent in shape can be a bit short, but I find that happens with a lot of horses - short type toplines usually equals short typey necks, it's a rare individual who has a beautiful swan neck and a compact topline. Sort of like we can't all be 6'0 supermodels with legs up to our chins. Usurpator looks a bit like that line, but it looks like he drew the beautiful long uphill neck and longer topline card.

That said, there is a lot of downhill in the sire line going back through Mr. P. Mr. P is in everything these day so it hard to make generalizations with so many of them out there, but the downhill look is there. Still, in my mind I have the Fappiano line in general and the Unbridled Song in particular as being one of the more uphill versions of Mr. P. Another Mr. P line I like where I see more uphill buiilds is through Forty Niner.

[Regina DiNovi]

I really like the first one Usurpater. Does anyone know his jumping score or am I missing it. I would love to see video.

He is outstanding.

[grayarabpony]

As Portia said, Hawaii lines are sought after by eventers; he's one of Denny Emerson's favorite lines.


As they ought to be. ;) When he was competing Molokai looked to have almost limitless scope and was very, very smart in how he handled himself over fences.

I am thrilled to see these two American stallions approved for breeding in Westphalia. They certainly do bring a lot of good lines with them!

I really like the bottom of Usurpator's pedigree. Herbager (who had pencil legs, but the rest of him looked magnificent) with Continue, who was a Double Jay daughter.

[DMK]

I really like the bottom of Usurpator's pedigree. Herbager (who had pencil legs, but the rest of him looked magnificent) with Continue, who was a Double Jay daughter.

another Mr. P line I like where I see more uphill builds is through Forty Niner.

hah! Continue. Dam of File. File. Dam of Forty Niner!

[Tiki]

Difficult or not, Nasrullah is in the pedigree of more Olympic horses than any other stallion on the planet. My TB mares and their daughters are full of him and they are all absolute love bugs.

[TKR]

I didn't think Unbridled Song's neck was at all short. I thought he was very proportionate when I viewed him in person. He was really lovely!
PennyG

[Foxtrot's]

...but Nasrullah is in just about every non-Olympic TB horse's pedigree, too :D

[vineyridge]

Even before Eight Belles, there was a horse who broke down during the Keeneland Steeplechase meet a few years back. He was a son of Unbridled Song, and my thought at the time was "Why in the world would someone make a chaser out of an Unbridled Song?"

From the looks of Usurpator, he will definitely benefit from mares with very, very good bone in the front legs.

Trolley Song, the sire's dam, is from one of the very best FF in modern day TBs, 4-m. Zoftig (FF1-n), Usurpator's dam only went to the breeding shed about 4 years ago, but she is already the dam of the superior race filly of 2008, Zaftig (2005), who won over a million dollars but is already retired with a torn suspensory. The owners of Zoftig have bred her twice to Unbridled's Song; but Zaftig is by another Mr. P son, Gone West. If Usurpator sold at keeneland for $650,000 and never raced due to injury, that's two of 4 of Zoftig's progeny out for injury by age 3. That's a 50% rate of unsoundness at an early age. Or if we limit it to Mr. P lines, 2 of three. Perhaps if they had been allowed to mature, based on the horses in the Caro side rather than pushed because of the precociousness of Mr. P's get, they might have been more injury free and/or had longer racing careers. But who knows? I'd think with Usurpator, the key factor would definitely be adding bone and improving the front legs. He is not one who should be bred to light mares for offspring with a high probability of staying sound in hard work.

Ratibor had a very short, but unsuccessful racing career.

[3Dogs]

I am not a TB guru like some here but Viney, I am a bit suprised at your comments about Ursurpator and his "front legs" and needing mares with lots of bone? I think this is a hunka hunka stallion :D

I certainly don't know what the bloodlines are speaking, but looking at this stallion, I think he is quite fine, quite fine to look at and his front legs look like they have ample bone:

for comparison:

[camohn]

more on the Alydar line.......
for a brief time Easy Goer
http://www.pedigreequery.com/easy+goer
also topped the jumper sire list.What is amazing about that is that it is because it was based on only a few offspring so they must have done very well. First Easy Goer did not have many offspring due to his premature death, and the few he did have rarely ended up as sporthorses due to their value as racehorses....they were not affordable to sporthorse folks.
In the case of EG it also helps he had the mighty fine lines of Buckpasser and To Market on his dam side!

[vineyridge]

Of course, one can't tell from a single conformation picture, but it looks like the first stallion, who I take it is Cunningham, has much stronger looking pasterns and cannon bones up front; and he doesn't look at all tied in behind the knee. Now I know that Usurpator only turned officially five on January 1 and could easily grow more bone in the cannons and pasterns, but to my eye they look rather fragile and a hair tied in. But seeing dark gray legs against a dark background is almost more than my eyes can handle. :)

[Maren]

Sabine, thanks for posting.

Personally, I'm pretty on the fence on Ursupator for he reasons listed by vineyridge here. I find the front leg conformation more than questionable - and when I breed to a TB, I would want one with a lot of slope and depth in the hip/croup. Not here. So he is a young, unproven and unraced stallion with an injury from a line known to have issues and people will try to use him to add the plus of the TB: stamina, soundness, etc. ?? And jumping potential? How so?
I love the blood - I wonder what we'll get out of it. Too much of a gamble from my point of view - I'll stick to those TBs around already that we know more of. I do wish them luck though. Warendorf and grey TB stallions have a history ...

[EqTrainer]

Re: Ursupator

I am surprised that no one noticed - Private Account = RIDEABILITY :D

[PineTreeFarm]

more on the Alydar line.......
for a brief time Easy Goer
http://www.pedigreequery.com/easy+goer
also topped the jumper sire list.What is amazing about that is that it is because it was based on only a few offspring so they must have done very well.
The USEF leading Jumper sire list?
If so, what year please?

[DMK]

I didn't think Unbridled Song's neck was at all short. I thought he was very proportionate when I viewed him in person. He was really lovely!
PennyG

yup, long neck and long back... (I'm assuming everyone knows I'm not talking about a long back that is too long, just the sort of long that is in the range of acceptable horse conformation from square to rectangle ... but then again this is COTH so I probably shouldn't take the obvious for granted!)

But this is a fairly typical unbridled's song look if you flip through the pages of stallion porn, er, I mean the stallion register

http://www.pedigreequery.com/unbridled+time

And of course you would be wrong if you thought I didn't like that look! It's just something that is good to know if you happen to have a mare with a short neck. You can usually count on TBs to lengthen the neck, but I think it might be more hit or miss in this line than, let's say, Buckpasser lines. These are good things to know, don't you think?

[PineTreeFarm]

Re: Ursupator

I am surprised that no one noticed - Private Account = RIDEABILITY :D

I'm a fan of Private Acount.
He appears in the pedigrees of both H/J and Eventers.
He is the sire of Life Interest who also was a sire of H/J.

He is the maternal Grand Sire of Sea Accounts, an Eventing stallion.

[DMK]

...but Nasrullah is in just about every non-Olympic TB horse's pedigree, too :D

Yup, turns out you find Nasrullah almost every place you find oxygen. Other than that, it's quite uncommon. :p

[Regina DiNovi]

That is unfortunate they didn't jump.

I have a mare by Strike The Gold that is by Alydar.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/majestic+topaz

I know nothing about Tb. pedigress.

[3Dogs]

why I love this board - and as I think Cunningham "da man" I only posted an easily available grey WB stallion as comparison.

I don't see some of the issues others are pointing out - I keep looking -

but if he is approved by a registry, no matter what happened on the race course, I am assuming - am I crazy?? - that he had to undergo some sort of stallion testing?? I don't know the Westphalian system, but Fannie Mae, he did have to go through testing, yes?

[grayarabpony]

I imagine Easygoer briefly topped the eventing sire list, since he sired Cayman Went.

[camohn]

The USEF leading Jumper sire list?
If so, what year please?

I wish I could remember. It was several years back. I would check it intermittently.....he was on for a while and then dropped off. I remember because it was there about the same time Aly Dark was and the similar breeding made an impression on me.

[Vesper Sparrow]

This thread interested me because I own a young Unbridled's Song grandson (shortish neck, compact, very sweet disposition, very intelligent and trainable, can't say much about his jumping ability yet.)


I took the description of Ursurpator on the above-mentioned website and put it through Google Translator. You can kind of catch their drift:

With xx usurper has a very rahmiger thoroughbred stallion in the country a box Stud Warendorf related. Der kompakte Schimmel überzeugt mit einem korrekten Fundament und einem deutlichen Hengstausdruck. The compact mold convinced a correct foundation and a clear expression stallion. Züchter dieses außergewöhnlichen Vollblüters ist das US-amerikanische Gestüt ClassikStar in Kentucky. Thoroughbred breeders this exceptional is the American Stud ClassikStar in Kentucky. Nach einer Verletzung in der Startbox war USURPATOR xx nicht im Rennsport eingesetzt. After an injury in the starting xx usurper was not used in racing. In Warendorf wird er vorsichtig gearbeitet und kann jederzeit unter dem Sattel besichtigt werden. In Warendorf, he worked carefully and may at any time under the saddle can be viewed. Besitzerin des Hengstes ist Natalia Timoshenko (Kiew/Ukraine). Owner of the stallion is Natalia Timoshenko (Kiev / Ukraine).

Der Vater Unbridled’s Song xx brachte zahlreiche höchst erfolgreiche Rennpferde, die Gewinnsumme seiner Nachkommen liegt bei derzeit rund 530.000 US-Dollar. The father xx Unbridled's Song brought numerous highly successful racehorses, winning the sum of its descendants is currently around 530,000 U.S. dollars.

Die Mutter, Zoftig xx von Cozzene xx, gehört der weit verzweigten Vollblut-Familie 1 an, die der Warmblutzucht schon so bedeutende Vererber wie Lauries Crusador xx, Prinz Thatch xx und Sacramento Song xx beschert hat. The mother of Zoftig xx xx Cozzene, belongs to the whole extended family 1, which is so important Warmblutzucht inheritance as Laurie Crusador xx Prince Thatch xx and Sacramento Song xx beschert hat. Im weiteren mütterlichen Pedigree folgt über Nijinski xx der renommierte Northern Dancer xx. In other maternal pedigree follows Nijinski xx renowned Northern Dancer xx. Nijinsky xx sorgte über Green Dancer xx für AKITOS xx und Solo Dancer xx. Nijinsky xx cared about Green Dancer xx to xx AKITOS and Solo Dancer xx. Großvater Caro xx stellte mit NEBOS xx einen weiteren Warendorfer Landbeschäler. Grandfather Caro xx xx NEBOS noted with another Warendorfer Landbeschäler.

USURPATOR xx kommt vorbehaltlich der NRW-Nachkörung Ende Januar 2009 in der Besamungsstation Warendorf zum Einsatz. Xx usurper comes subject to the NRW-Nachkörung end of January 2009 in Warendorf Besamungsstation used.

[DMK]

I guess, as a person who dabbles in both hunter breeding classes and photography, all I can say is you couldn't pay me to lay my opinion on the line about the finer details of conformation based on a single picture. You can get some ideas about the gross (large) details, but you can be made a fool by evaluating the smaller things in a photo. They all lie, you know...

All I'll commit to is is Usurpator may have wheels and bone that is a) better; b) worse; or c) about like the picture shows.

[3Dogs]

oh DMK - so logical :lol: Where's the fun????:winkgrin:

[vineyridge]

I guess, as a person who dabbles in both hunter breeding classes and photography, all I can say is you couldn't pay me to lay my opinion on the line about the finer details of conformation based on a single picture. You can get some ideas about the gross (large) details, but you can be made a fool by evaluating the smaller things in a photo. They all lie, you know...

All I'll commit to is is Usurpator may have wheels and bone that is a) better; b) worse; or c) about like the picture shows.

ROTFL

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PineTreeFarm]

I imagine Easygoer briefly topped the eventing sire list, since he sired Cayman Went.

Yes, he has been on the Eventing list off and on for several years. He also sired Merciful Judge who I think got to Advanced.

But the Jumper list? I don't think so.

[alliekat]

I love Alydar close up. I guess I am partial as I own a grand daughter of his by Wheaton!!!
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10451108&time=1233114206

[camohn]

I'd think with Usurpator, the key factor would definitely be adding bone and improving the front legs. He is not one who should be bred to light mares for offspring with a high probability of staying sound in hard work.

.
You would want mares with good bone on the leg but I disagree that he should be bred to a heavier type (older style) mare...what happens if you get the mares heavier body type from the WB and he throws back to potentially frail Unbridled Song legs? That would be worse than a lighter body type on fine legs....
On one hand 3/4 of his pedigree is lovely. On the other hand 1/4 may be problematic in the gene swimming pool........and the early retirement due to injury WITH his pedigree is concerning. Personally I would want to see him jump before I bred to him to make SURE the jump (which has good potential from the pedigree) is really there before I risked breeding to him. I would also want to know what the nature of his injury actually is.

[Perfect Pony]

What struck me looking at the first pedigree is the 3 nicest moving and jumping TBs I have ever seen were sired by Quiet American (Fappiano), Cozzene and Unaccounted For (Private Account).

The first I was stupid not to buy, the second I did not buy because of his age (he was in his early teens), and the third I did buy and was an amazing horse, unfortunately he also ended up retired with a knee chip :(

To me, that is one hell of a sport horse pedigree for a American TB.

[vineyridge]

The explanation that is given for his retirement during training is an injury in the starting gate.

Still a big question in my mind.

[Equilibrium]

Yes, he has been on the Eventing list off and on for several years. He also sired Merciful Judge who I think got to Advanced.

But the Jumper list? I don't think so.


No way, I use to gallop Mercy when trained by Nick Zito! How come no complete pedigree on this guy in pedigree query? He might have been out of a Capote mare, but I can't be sure on that. I could have his breeding written down somewhere if I have a picture of him.

Terri

[DownYonder]

i have just gotten home from the westfalian licensing and the westfalian state stud introduced two american tb sires - they have already been shown to the public at the recent state stud stallion show and today they appeared at the verbands licensing committe to finally recieve their licensing approval....

unfortunately, none of them was shown jumping at all which i consider a true lack of information, at least jumping at liberty could have given a tiny clue.

Am I understanding this correctly? They licensed them without seeing them jump? :confused:

[camohn]

The explanation that is given for his retirement during training is an injury in the starting gate.

Still a big question in my mind.

Gate injury is still too vague for me though. Was he a bad loader or went bonkers in the start gate? (Not what I would want mentally from a sport horse), went down breaking out of the gate...or he tried breaking from the gate/the chest panels did not give properly (as happens every once in a while) in which case that would be totally not his fault....
Added: for all the potential problems I posted about the first stallion there IS a bright side: He does not actually look like Unbridled....I think he looks more like Caro and that is a good thing!

[EqTrainer]

This thread interested me because I own a young Unbridled's Song grandson (shortish neck, compact, very sweet disposition, very intelligent and trainable, can't say much about his jumping ability yet.)


I took the description of Ursurpator on the above-mentioned website and put it through Google Translator. You can kind of catch their drift:

With xx usurper has a very rahmiger thoroughbred stallion in the country a box Stud Warendorf related. Der kompakte Schimmel überzeugt mit einem korrekten Fundament und einem deutlichen Hengstausdruck. The compact mold convinced a correct foundation and a clear expression stallion. Züchter dieses außergewöhnlichen Vollblüters ist das US-amerikanische Gestüt ClassikStar in Kentucky. Thoroughbred breeders this exceptional is the American Stud ClassikStar in Kentucky. Nach einer Verletzung in der Startbox war USURPATOR xx nicht im Rennsport eingesetzt. After an injury in the starting xx usurper was not used in racing. In Warendorf wird er vorsichtig gearbeitet und kann jederzeit unter dem Sattel besichtigt werden. In Warendorf, he worked carefully and may at any time under the saddle can be viewed. Besitzerin des Hengstes ist Natalia Timoshenko (Kiew/Ukraine). Owner of the stallion is Natalia Timoshenko (Kiev / Ukraine).

Der Vater Unbridled’s Song xx brachte zahlreiche höchst erfolgreiche Rennpferde, die Gewinnsumme seiner Nachkommen liegt bei derzeit rund 530.000 US-Dollar. The father xx Unbridled's Song brought numerous highly successful racehorses, winning the sum of its descendants is currently around 530,000 U.S. dollars.

Die Mutter, Zoftig xx von Cozzene xx, gehört der weit verzweigten Vollblut-Familie 1 an, die der Warmblutzucht schon so bedeutende Vererber wie Lauries Crusador xx, Prinz Thatch xx und Sacramento Song xx beschert hat. The mother of Zoftig xx xx Cozzene, belongs to the whole extended family 1, which is so important Warmblutzucht inheritance as Laurie Crusador xx Prince Thatch xx and Sacramento Song xx beschert hat. Im weiteren mütterlichen Pedigree folgt über Nijinski xx der renommierte Northern Dancer xx. In other maternal pedigree follows Nijinski xx renowned Northern Dancer xx. Nijinsky xx sorgte über Green Dancer xx für AKITOS xx und Solo Dancer xx. Nijinsky xx cared about Green Dancer xx to xx AKITOS and Solo Dancer xx. Großvater Caro xx stellte mit NEBOS xx einen weiteren Warendorfer Landbeschäler. Grandfather Caro xx xx NEBOS noted with another Warendorfer Landbeschäler.

USURPATOR xx kommt vorbehaltlich der NRW-Nachkörung Ende Januar 2009 in der Besamungsstation Warendorf zum Einsatz. Xx usurper comes subject to the NRW-Nachkörung end of January 2009 in Warendorf Besamungsstation used.


You can also change the language to English on the website :)

[Vesper Sparrow]

You can also change the language to English on the website :)

Right you are! :lol: I'm a translator by profession, so I guess I wanted to see how the translation software would botch it up...

[Erin Pittman]

No way, I use to gallop Mercy when trained by Nick Zito! How come no complete pedigree on this guy in pedigree query? He might have been out of a Capote mare, but I can't be sure on that. I could have his breeding written down somewhere if I have a picture of him.

Terri

Better source is Equineline anyhow: http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=1353930&registry=T&horse_name=Merciful%20Judge&dam_name=Fair%20to%20All&foaling_year=1992&nicking_stats_indicator=Y

[PineTreeFarm]

Gate injury is still too vague for me though. Was he a bad loader or went bonkers in the start gate? (Not what I would want mentally from a sport horse), went down breaking out of the gate...or he tried breaking from the gate/the chest panels did not give properly (as happens every once in a while) in which case that would be totally not his fault....


How funny to worry about gate behavior.
Years ago we were able to get OTTB's for the show ring because they were bad gate loaders, or wouldn't break from the gate or did other odd things like dumping the jock. Behavior on the track or in the gate often means nothing as far as show horse potential.
I have one now that wouldn't break. I saw his third and final attempt at getting a gate card. When he finally left the gate he headed for the infield fence. Jumped it and lost the jock. Trainer begged me to take him away that day.
He also has a hind ankle injury as a result of an earlier argument with the gate. Showed for 10 years, mostly as a jumper.
Over the years I've probably known 40+ horses that either had injuries that prevented racing or failed racing 101 and still had good minds and made good performance horses.
Accidents happen. If a horse has an injury that prevents racing it may be just bad luck.

[alliekat]

A gate injury and refusal to go in at all cost is how I got my mare. Thank goodness her injury wasn't in relation to leg soundness, but rather a eye injury that cause a small scar. She still has her sight though. The only problem I have with her is not liking to load on a two horse straight load trailer.
U/S and over fences she is great!!

[Portia]

I took the description of Ursurpator on the above-mentioned website and put it through Google Translator. You can kind of catch their drift:

With xx usurper has a very rahmiger thoroughbred stallion in the country a box Stud Warendorf related. Der kompakte Schimmel überzeugt mit einem korrekten Fundament und einem deutlichen Hengstausdruck. The compact mold convinced a correct foundation and a clear expression stallion. Züchter dieses außergewöhnlichen Vollblüters ist das US-amerikanische Gestüt ClassikStar in Kentucky. ...
Ah yes, the joys of trying to translate a discussion of a horse using a universal translator. Way, way too many terms that aren't found in "normal" vocabulary. :D

[grayarabpony]

Am I understanding this correctly? They licensed them without seeing them jump? :confused:

Hmmm, I wondered about that too....

What kind of testing/ criteria have these stallions undergone?

[Portia]

The way I took it was that fannie mae was saying that they didn't do a jumping demonstration at the public licensing presentation so she couldn't give a personal assessment of them on that point, not that the inspectors haven't seen the horses jump at all. (But I could certainly be wrong on that interpretation.)

[grayarabpony]

The way I took it was that fannie mae was saying that they didn't do a jumping demonstration at the public licensing presentation so she couldn't give a personal assessment of them on that point, not that the inspectors haven't seen the horses jump at all. (But I could certainly be wrong on that interpretation.)

That's what I thought too -- I can't imagine they would have been licensed without performance criteria.

The judges' comments will be made public, won't they? I am curious to hear more about these stallions.

[EqTrainer]

Private Account horses usually have a great jump. Trainability and rideability in this line is so high, I will be really curious to see how this stallion does and who they breed him to. I would suppose you'd want to breed him to WB mares who were too clunky to jump well and had bad temperaments :lol:

[LockeMeadows]

Ratibor--Caro through Cozzene tail male, so everything in those lines that is good in Usurpator is equally promising in him. You also have linebreeding top and bottom to Sir Gaylord, and he is in the sire lines of such sport horse/steeplechasing progenitors as Sir Ivor (top class eventing) and Lord Gayle, sire of steeplechasing sires Strong Gale and Lord Americo. These are all low dosage horses who have excelled at what is now too long for US racing. Sir Gaylord is a son of Turn To, who was also the sire of Best Turn, a notable sport horse producer in jumpers and eventing, including Hand In Glove.

About ten years ago, I had a Sir Ivor daughter that was a fantastic broodmare. Her first foal for me was sired by a QH and is now doing the AQHA shows in HUS and HOF. We then bred her to Skyward (TB) and the resulting filly was one of the nicest TB's I've ever seen. She had "conformation hunter" written all over her until a pasture accident turned her into a broodmare. :(

The mare was about 16.2H and was very correct with a huge stride and a jump that would toss an ammy out of the tack. Her disposition was outstanding (I've never come across a mean Tom Fool) and she was idiot proof on the flat.

[fish]

About ten years ago, I had a Sir Ivor daughter that was a fantastic broodmare. Her first foal for me was sired by a QH and is now doing the AQHA shows in HUS and HOF. We then bred her to Skyward (TB) and the resulting filly was one of the nicest TB's I've ever seen. She had "conformation hunter" written all over her until a pasture accident turned her into a broodmare. :(

The mare was about 16.2H and was very correct with a huge stride and a jump that would toss an ammy out of the tack. Her disposition was outstanding (I've never come across a mean Tom Fool) and she was idiot proof on the flat.

The Sir Ivors I've seen (2 sons on the track in Fla., and another retired in Md), all had that "confomation hunter look." 2 of the 3 were also extremely quiet. The other was, IMO, not well broke, overfed, and spent far too much time in the stall (i.e. a coming 3 y.o. with zero turn out and not enough exercise u/s). He was drop dead gorgeous (and way overweight for a racehorse), and showed tremendous talent for airs above the ground. My impression has been that Sir Ivor and his line have very quiet basic temperaments.

[hessy35]

Usurpator is filled with what I'd call 'the usual suspects." The ones that we in the US have figured out are good for sport horses. Fappiano and Unbridled as tail male through Unbridled's Song. Caro as GGsire twice, top AND bottom AND sex balanced, through Trolley Song on top and Cozzene on the bottom. Caro is a notable sport horse sire, probably from his grandsire Grey Sovereign. The late TB stallion, Heroicity had multiple lines to Grey Sovereign, just as one very small example among many. Jumping talent would definitely come from Caro and Le Fabuleux on top and from pretty much all the horses on the bottom. For instance, the mare Blue Canoe, just as an example, is Jet Pilot on top and War Admiral on the bottom, and she was was bred to Sir Gaylord. All of those lines have produced multiple jumping horses, from steeplechasers to GP to eventers. Even the less well known lines like Lucky Mel are good. He traces to Hyperion's son Heliopolis on the top, and to Royal Charger as damsire. Incantation is sireline Princequillo, and the rest is almost as nice.

Unbridled's Song has a reputation for producing fragile racehorses; but since this guy will be bred to WB mares, that shouldn't be a problem. Eight Belles was an Unbridled's Song daughter and there are other track breakdowns of his get; but his reputation might just be based on a few high profile instances. I do know that I would never choose an Unbridled's Song offspring for steeplechasing just based on the reputation.

Usurpators damlines go back to the very great mother and daughter pair, Popinjay and Popingaol.

This is the sort of American pedigree that all of us would say bodes well for producing good, athletic, and talented sport horses. There isn't a line that doesn't show promise.

Let's be clear that Unbridles's Song produces LARGE offspring, not fragile. If you take a 17h 2 year old and ask it to be a racehorse, it is going to break down (more often than not). A horse’s legs of that size have a long way to go before they are fully formed. Eight Belles was a perfect example of racing a horse that was not able to hold up due to it's size. She needed more time to develop.

[omare]

St Averil who stands in Maryland is very closely bred on the mare side to the one stallion and (I think) is a lovely looking horse.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/sr_sire_page.asp?refno=6160819

I was told Lord Avie had a wonderful hind leg, conformationally, on him--and of interest he has a jumper son on the FEI list.

[equestrianism]

A lot of people seem to stop and look at Caro. I would you to look a little bit closer at Grey Sovereign, the grand sire of Caro.

GS is a son of Nasrullah out of a Baytown mare.The line of GS is not only known behind famous son Fortino II. His daughter Field Mouse has had good influence in producing offspring that have done well in both racing and three day eventing. GS is also to be found behind the mother of Sir Shostakovich xx. SS himself has sired quite a high number of approved stallions for being a TB.

Fortino II sired Caro but he also sired Silver Matal the sire of legendary Silbersee SF who amongst many things won in the tuffest competition in Aachen with rider Michael Rüping. Silbersee is the sire of the holsteiner stallion Spender S who just been awarded Elite in the stud book of BWP.

Fappiano who's behind the sireline of Usurpator is father of National Stud of Flyinges Eighty Eight Keys. His performance as a stallion often causes desputes in Sweden but the fact is that he has produced a number of offspring doing really well for once his son Keymaster competed in the Olympics in Athens! Another of his offspring is the pony Mustang pony-cross who came in second in the European Championsships in eventing 2005!

The stallion Wild Risk who's also to be found behind the sire line of Usurpator has two sons that has made a big difference for the international show jumping and dressage scene.

The first of them is Vimy who you'll find behind the top class sire Lauries Crusador. His success as a breeding sire in Germany in the direction of producing top class horses can not been missed by anyone!

The other top class producer by Wild Risk is Worden II. Worden sired Moderne grand sire of international show jumper Butterfly Flip SWB (by Robin Z). "Flippan" competed for 10 years at the highest international level and wasn't injured once!!! Worden II alos produced Julio Mariner a TB stallion that has been approved in many European stud books. JM is responible for many top class horses in both show jumping and dressage as well as approved stallions.

Behind the mother line of Ratibor you find the stallion Ambiorix whos also found behind Coconut Grove and international jumper and approved stallion.

[andy.smaga]

About ten years ago, I had a Sir Ivor daughter that was a fantastic broodmare. Her first foal for me was sired by a QH and is now doing the AQHA shows in HUS and HOF. We then bred her to Skyward (TB) and the resulting filly was one of the nicest TB's I've ever seen. She had "conformation hunter" written all over her until a pasture accident turned her into a broodmare. :(

In France Count Ivor (a son of Sir Ivor) had a lot of success at stud and produced many Grand Prix horses.

[vineyridge]

I cannot count the number of times I've touted Wild Risk for sport horses on these forums. In fact, I've been looking for a couple of years for an active Wild Risk tail male sire in the US and haven't been able to find one yet. :(

[Fairview Horse Center]

if you had these stallions in the US what kind of mare would you breed to them and why?
and even more important:
what kind of mare would you NOT breed to them an why?
.... unfortunately, none of them was shown jumping at all which i consider a true lack of information, at least jumping at liberty could have given a tiny clue.

None without seeing them jump!!

Very confused. How does any stallion get licensed without showing their jump? And they expect breeders to use them without seeing their jump?!?

If that is how the Europeans are choosing TB stallions, no wonder why we see articles like Tom's about TBs being jump destroyers.

[grayarabpony]

Why does tail male matter? The jumping ability appears to come down from Wild Risk, tail male or not.

[Sacha]

I spotted the first stallion on their site a few weeks ago when I was having a nose for something else, and loved the Caro stamp. I am a big fan of the Grey Soverign line and Caro espeically. Love to ehar more comments about him from Fannie Mae when she gets chance

[equestrianism]

I cannot count the number of times I've touted Wild Risk for sport horses on these forums. In fact, I've been looking for a couple of years for an active Wild Risk tail male sire in the US and haven't been able to find one yet. :(
I used to breed on a mare holding the blood lines of Viuex Manoir, Honeway, Wild Risk, Ribot and Grey Sovereign, those were happy days ;-)

[Maren]

I cannot count the number of times I've touted Wild Risk for sport horses on these forums. In fact, I've been looking for a couple of years for an active Wild Risk tail male sire in the US and haven't been able to find one yet. :(

Not tail male, but get over there to Handorf for the Trakehner approvals in 2 weeks and peek at Papellito xx. 300 day tested (Hanoverian model), steeplechased to 75kg GAG, is showing at M*-level show jumping and is inbred to Wild Risk 3 times in the first 5 generations. He's a Local Suitor xx and carries an equal amount of Nasrullah as he does Wild Risk. Extremely interesting stallion. Bound for Trakehner approval, and I bet they will jump him!!

PS: I'm working on my catalogue for Handorf, should be online tomorrow. Found some fab pix of that one. And the other two they're expecting aren't shabby either. Kiton (Lando x In the Wings xx) and Albaran xx (Sure Blade xx x Königsstuhl xx).

[Foxtrot's]

Did anybody mention that Innkeeper was Caro?

[camohn]

Did anybody mention that Innkeeper was Caro?

not if it is this Innkeeper
http://www.pedigreequery.com/innkeeper

[DMK]

I cannot count the number of times I've touted Wild Risk for sport horses on these forums. In fact, I've been looking for a couple of years for an active Wild Risk tail male sire in the US and haven't been able to find one yet. :(

Umm, Arazi? And of course The Runaway Groom line especially through Blushing Groom (Wekiva Springs is still active at stud).

Those would be more dilute, but Arazi is Wild Risk both through his sire's dam line and dam line and if you look at his son Congaree , there you go... Wild Risk on top, and a lot of Ribot below.

[vineyridge]

Umm, Arazi? And of course The Runaway Groom line especially through Blushing Groom (Wekiva Springs is still active at stud).

Those would be more dilute, but Arazi is Wild Risk both through his sire's dam line and dam line.

Not tail male either of them. I'm looking for a son of a son of a son. :)

[DMK]

duh! I was reading tail female.

eh, given the year of Wild Risk's birth I think you are bucking the odds, but it could happen. Still, I am given to understand that seagoing travel was a bit dicey about then. Not a lot of horses (or people) getting on boats and crossing the Atlantic for fun and games! ;) Not to mention the big old kick in the head that European race breeding had for that entire decade 'n then some.

ETA - HOTY Dauphin Fabuleux - now deceased. Technically not US, we will have to settle for NA since he was Canadian. Probably has a son standing out there somewhere.

[Portia]

Not tail male either of them. I'm looking for a son of a son of a son. :) of a sailor? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Out of curiosity, what is the difference if the genes come from the sire line or the dam line? Genes is genes, ain't they?

(Now if 4M Perennial Farm sees this, I'm in trouble, as he's a geneticist.)

[vineyridge]

Le Fabuleux was imported to the US, and was a fairly successful sire. I keep looking to see if possibly there is a sireline to him over here somewhere deep in the racing boonies. Dauphin Fabuleux had a son, French King, who was a very good racer in Canada. Lovely lines for sport horses, but PQ doesn't show any offspring for him.

[DMK]

darn, you are too late by a few months

http://www.pedigreequery.com/the+great+prize

He does look like a much loved old stallion in that picture.

And his 3 year old son sure looks interesting on paper

http://www.pedigreequery.com/great+truth3

[camohn]

of a sailor? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Out of curiosity, what is the difference if the genes come from the sire line or the dam line? Genes is genes, ain't they?

(Now if 4M Perennial Farm sees this, I'm in trouble, as he's a geneticist.)

Sometimes!
Sometimes it does not matter, sometimes stallions have a rep as a better broodmare sire than as a sire of sires for whatever IT factor there is goes with the girly genes.....like Secretariat and his X factor (large heart) seems to go on the female side so for racing he is much preferred on the damline. For hunter that won't matter....for a steeplechaser or eventer it will.

[vineyridge]

Sometimes!
Sometimes it does not matter, sometimes stallions have a rep as a better broodmare sire than as a sire of sires what whatever IT factor there is goes with the girly genes.....like Secretariat and his X factor (large heart) seems to go on the female side so for racing he is much preferred on the damline. For hunter that won't matter....for a steeplechaser or eventer it will.

Brian Wallis in Texas made it his business plan to find and use great old line stallions from stamina lines. He stood a couple of Shirley Heights sons, this guy, and a son (or grandson) of Val de Loire.

I am beginning to believe that it is helpful to have an infusion of the jump through both dams and sires close up. That is to say, after a few generations bringing the jump back in through tail male keeps it going more strongly in the offspring. That there may be a zigzag pattern.

I just found this article by googling steeplechase breeding.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118521942/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Now if I can just figure out how to get a copy for cheap.

Anyone here subscribe to this journal?

[grayarabpony]

of a sailor? (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Out of curiosity, what is the difference if the genes come from the sire line or the dam line? Genes is genes, ain't they?

(Now if 4M Perennial Farm sees this, I'm in trouble, as he's a geneticist.)

The large heart factor is thought to be on the X chromosome. So a dam can pass it on to sons and daughters, a sire only to his daughters.

With that and mDNA, I'd think that the damline would be the one most worth looking at. No one knows yet what's on the Y chromosome though.

[Maren]

I just found this article by googling steeplechase breeding.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118521942/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Now if I can just figure out how to get a copy for cheap.

Anyone here subscribe to this journal?

Can you send the reference (can't access the link). 99% chance I can get it for you.

[sniplover]

I bet I already have it.. check your PM's Viney!!

[vineyridge]

Here's the link that I found that linked to the article:
http://www.find-health-articles.com/rec_pub_17550353-possibility-selecting-racehorses-jumping-ability-based-steeplechase.htm

Thanks, sniplover. You have an email. :)

[alexandra]

None without seeing them jump!!

Very confused. How does any stallion get licensed without showing their jump? And they expect breeders to use them without seeing their jump?!?

If that is how the Europeans are choosing TB stallions, no wonder why we see articles like Tom's about TBs being jump destroyers.

well, I was also very astonished reading that they Westfalen (!!!!!) has approved them sort of like that. The comments / scores will not be published. I wonder if someone did his/her homework before and imported them based upon pedigree (who was that) or whether it was some sort of coincidence and to join the everyone needs a TB hype that suddenly seems to break out in Germany...

In Hannover they (the TBs) are looked at for conformation, have to have a kind of performance (either GAG from racing in Germany (or any record from elsewhere) or show records riding/under saddle). Than they want to see them freejumping and/or under saddle at the licensing/approval.

[grayarabpony]

Where is fannie mae? She could clear this up, right?

[Maren]

Not much to clear up. Different registries - different rules. As Alexandra points out, it wouldn't work that way in Hanover. It also wouldn't in Holstein or the Trakehner breed. You either have a sufficient race record (which in Germany is going by GAG in kg and was lowered from 80kg to I think 75kg last year) and it's up to the breeder to find out where the breeding value of such a race horse lies - or you have a TB stallion with 1) a 70 day test score that is acceptable or 2) any performance record from shows, and again, each registry is different. But on top of performance, they always demand to see the stallion, for conformation, and that includes a hard surface performance, at liberty, and for "untested" stallion, free jumping. Not so in Westfalia, I guess.

[Fairview Horse Center]

have to have a kind of performance (either GAG from racing in Germany

because we all know that in the European system, racing success proves the talent for dressage and jumping. :uhoh: :lol:

[grayarabpony]

Not much to clear up. Different registries - different rules. As Alexandra points out, it wouldn't work that way in Hanover. It also wouldn't in Holstein or the Trakehner breed. You either have a sufficient race record (which in Germany is going by GAG in kg and was lowered from 80kg to I think 75kg last year) and it's up to the breeder to find out where the breeding value of such a race horse lies - or you have a TB stallion with 1) a 70 day test score that is acceptable or 2) any performance record from shows, and again, each registry is different. But on top of performance, they always demand to see the stallion, for conformation, and that includes a hard surface performance, at liberty, and for "untested" stallion, free jumping. Not so in Westfalia, I guess.

Unless the testing wasn't public.

Besides, it's not as though Westphalia hasn't produced really good horses.

[vineyridge]

Or maybe somebody made a huge contribution to the Westphalian licensing organization's ongoing programs. ;)

[Maren]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Westfalia has not producen good horses. However, it's a fact that the last ANgelo xx or Blauspecht xx has been a while ....

These TBs in question were shown in public. In fact, I haven't run into any approvals in 20 years that were not public - with the few "political" approvals aside.
I'm with Alexandra on this one - a stallion, no matter which breed, with no adequate performance test in whichever way, would not be approved in most registries if he can't even do the free jumping do to injury.

[alexandra]

because we all know that in the European system, racing success proves the talent for dressage and jumping. :uhoh: :lol:

Well at least even with the european racing system one knows that a horse can stand up against some sort of work. And if the horse racedover jumps of wahtever kind it at least has some sort of idea how to get over a jump. I bet Lauries Crusador does not really have a clue on that looking at the talents of his offspring. ;-)
Someone already raised the eyebrow towards the comment unraced due to start box injury. My first thought reading that on a german Internet site was also Iiiiiiii see. As if one can not buy american TB stallions toooo slow or completely unraced that have some sort of riding record and are sound. Anyways they aren ot my cup of tea anyways even though I like the conformation shot of one of them and given that one is a grey (which makes him even less attractive in these days for a lot of people), we have to see what becomes of them. Westfalen has one thing that they are ahead of "us": the publish the numbers of breedings "their" were used for for foals within the registry, so that one gets an idea how much they are used.

(I have no idea why you stress the european in here I believe american raicings are the same. All horses lined up, start signal and the one that is first, wins. Or do you do that different in the USA ?)

[DownYonder]

Not much to clear up. Different registries - different rules. As Alexandra points out, it wouldn't work that way in Hanover. It also wouldn't in Holstein or the Trakehner breed. You either have a sufficient race record (which in Germany is going by GAG in kg and was lowered from 80kg to I think 75kg last year) and it's up to the breeder to find out where the breeding value of such a race horse lies - or you have a TB stallion with 1) a 70 day test score that is acceptable or 2) any performance record from shows, and again, each registry is different. But on top of performance, they always demand to see the stallion, for conformation, and that includes a hard surface performance, at liberty, and for "untested" stallion, free jumping. Not so in Westfalia, I guess.

It wouldn't fly in Oldenburg, either. Unless they have DRASTICALLY revised their rules in the last year, Oldenburg also requires stallions to pass inspection for conformation, trot on hard surface, free-running (at liberty), and free-jumping. The free-jumping is usually waived for stallions that have finished the performance requirements, but not for TB stallions with only a race record.

[grayarabpony]

I don't get it. From what I've read Westphalia has the same sort of licensing requirements as other registries.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center
because we all know that in the European system, racing success proves the talent for dressage and jumping. :uhoh: :lol:


(I have no idea why you stress the european in here I believe american raicings are the same. All horses lined up, start signal and the one that is first, wins. Or do you do that different in the USA ?)

The "European system" comment was not about European racing, but the "perfect" system that we all hang on their every move for their generations of vision. The fact that they have ever counted racing as qualifying performance, well, it just says to me that the system really is not a system at all. The fact that some TBs make wonderful contributions to dressage and jumping (sport and breeding) has nothing to do with racing qualities, but in spite of them. Expecting a horse to have the jump and suspension/elasticity in their gaits because it ran fast is just such a farce. The BETTER choices are the ones that were so slow because they have too much "air time" in their gaits.

It is one of those things that just blow huge holes in the system for me. They won't allow their own created stallions that they have carefully chosen both parents for many generations to breed without a real performance test. (~"We can't tell they are good unless we see them for 100 days, OOPS, our mistake, now it is 10 because it is convenient for us for MARKETING purposes") BUT they license stallions from a different breed, uninspected parents with only running fast as their performance?!?! um, yeah, THAT makes sense. Let me get right in line to make sure I cross my "t"s and dot my "i"s with that system.

[NoDQhere]

Regardless of why or how these stallions were approved, I would first ask what they would bring to the table? Well, IMO, nothing that you couldn't get by using a comparable (conformation wise) WB stallion.

Just my opinion of course, but with all the nice WB stallions out there, why would you use a TB stallion of questionable soundness, regardless of how "pretty" he is??

[grayarabpony]

It is one of those things that just blow huge holes in the system for me. They won't allow their own created stallions that they have carefully chosen both parents for many generations to breed without a real performance test. (~"We can't tell they are good unless we see them for 100 days, OOPS, our mistake, now it is 10 because it is convenient for us for MARKETING purposes") BUT they license stallions from a different breed, uninspected parents with only running fast as their performance?!?! um, yeah, THAT makes sense. Let me get right in line to make sure I cross my "t"s and dot my "i"s with that system.

Stating the obvious here -- but these stallions were not successful race horses. :) And there are lots of examples in the horse world of successful sport lines just off racing lines.

I too would like to know what qualifications these stallions have beyond pedigree.

[DMK]

Well at least even with the european racing system one knows that a horse can stand up against some sort of work.

True, but honestly there are SO many variables that lead to an injury it's hard to say it is the horse. What if he was bumped into a bad step? What if the footing sucked? What if he just took a bad step because of a shadow or something in the infield? Racing is pushing the equine body to its maximum tolerances and the margin for error is so small at that point that tiny little mistakes lead to horrible consequences.

If there was a stallion that had an injury while racing, I'd probably look at his sire and dam and see the percentage of foals who made it to race. If that number was average to better than the norm, barring some other evidence, I think it would be hard to say an injury was due to weakness. Could be, but there's not a reasonable burden of proof there. Now if the stallion is a good stalion and a lower number of his babies make it to race (regardless whether they are winner) makes me think there is some fragility there, either mental or physical.

And of course bad training happens. Bad Training + Young Horse = More Broken Down Horses Than Average. I knew a owner/trainer that could probably give my truck a bowed tendon, he had a rare gift and a bowed tendon out of his barn surely wasn't the horse's fault.

Bad gate luck and bad gate training happens too. I think it was Afleet Alex that cracked open his skull in the gate and had to be rushed in to surgery. He won two legs of the triple crown, but it could just as easily resulted in him not ever running again, but as I recall he wasn't a bad actor in the gate, it's just something happened that day.

It's a sport that involves young horses stabled 24/7 and kept about as fit as any athlete on the planet and then they are pushed to the maximum tolerances of their physical ability. It's the perfect storm of "Shit Happens".

[Maren]

The "European system" comment was not about European racing, but the "perfect" system that we all hang on their every move for their generations of vision. The fact that they have ever counted racing as qualifying performance, well, it just says to me that the system really is not a system at all. The fact that some TBs make wonderful contributions to dressage and jumping (sport and breeding) has nothing to do with racing qualities, but in spite of them. Expecting a horse to have the jump and suspension/elasticity in their gaits because it ran fast is just such a farce. The BETTER choices are the ones that were so slow because they have too much "air time" in their gaits.

You interpret the system wrong. We do not require a race record because we think it will enhance sport horse breeding. We require one so we can see that the TB actually contributes with the traits we want from a TB: stamina, soundness, longevity. A TB is not selected because he looks and moves like a WB. That's nonsense. I know people are all over that - looking for the TB that is most WB. But that's not the point. The classic TB the Europeans want and have used so very successfully is a long-distance race horse, often over hurdles, with an uphill conformation and a race record that lasts longer than 2 seasons. A GAG record can be 150kg, if it's from only a couple of years on the track, it has no meaning whatsoever for the purpose of choosing a good TB improvement sire. Don't throw all of "us" in one pot, even if it may serve your rant better ;-)

It is one of those things that just blow huge holes in the system for me. They won't allow their own created stallions that they have carefully chosen both parents for many generations to breed without a real performance test. (~"We can't tell they are good unless we see them for 100 days, OOPS, our mistake, now it is 10 because it is convenient for us for MARKETING purposes") BUT they license stallions from a different breed, uninspected parents with only running fast as their performance?!?! um, yeah, THAT makes sense. Let me get right in line to make sure I cross my "t"s and dot my "i"s with that system.

Germany has no 10 day test. It also has no 100 day test any longer. The US has both. And that is Germany's fault?
Germany has shaped its stallion performance system over time because more ways are now available to qualify your horse as a riding horse producer (e.g. via competition). It still is a test system that has its faults, but is unsurpassed anywhere in the world. Get over it. If I were to engineer space shuttles, I would not turn my nose down on US leadership and guidance - I would try to get as close as possible to that highly proven "system". You don't have to like it, but Europe has about 250 years of a head start into this game of breeding by selection. Nobody forces you to be part of it if you don't like it.

Back to topic.

True, but honestly there are SO many variables that lead to an injury it's hard to say it is the horse. What if he was bumped into a bad step? What if the footing sucked? What if he just took a bad step because of a shadow or something in the infield? Racing is pushing the equine body to its maximum tolerances and the margin for error is so small at that point that tiny little mistakes lead to horrible consequences.

As far as I know, this particular stallion in question has NOT been injured in racing or anywhere on a track. He has never seen one single race in his career. That is indeed different.

[Fairview Horse Center]

We do not require a race record because we think it will enhance sport horse breeding. We require one so we can see that the TB actually contributes with the traits we want from a TB: stamina, soundness, longevity. A TB is not selected because he looks and moves like a WB. That's nonsense. I know people are all over that - looking for the TB that is most WB.

Actually the opposite is true, as todays warmblood looks and moves like a classic TB. The real Warmblood look and movement is gone. My question is why would anyone choose a TB stallion that will contribute just stanima, soundness and longevity, when you could choose one that would also add elasticity in the gaits and a good jump? THIS selection criteria is why we see articles like Tom's that say the TB is a gait and jump destroyer. Yep! IF you pick the wrong ones.


Germany has no 10 day test.

Germany IS looking to go to that in the future.

Europe has about 250 years of a head start into this game of breeding by selection.

Actually, no they don't - not for this type. We have many breeders that have bred by selection, Morgans, Arabs, etc. LESS than 100 years ago, Germany was breeding very drafty plow horses like Gambo. Morgans are & were much closer in type, gaits, and jumping ability than Gambo (with 31 approved sons), so who has been breeding for type longer? WHICH type?

OTOH, more recently, we were the ones competing horses like Touch of Class, Idle Dice, Jet Run, etc, etc. We had an abundance of those horses, but stupidly/lazily/cheaply choose to not breed for them, but to take our luck with race rejects. We did not have the insight to see that the racing type would change to mostly sprinters, and dry up our abundant source.

WE unfortunately chose to not "purpose breed", except for a few small, mostly Hunter breeders. If we had, we would have been WAY out in front of the Sporthorse production market.

Germany turned their local drafty stock slowly into TBs, but ones bred for gaits and jumping ability. Now they are scrambling for the next improvement TB, but their "selection" has not been so good lately.

[omare]

So based on the foregoing discussion, does this mean Mr Reed has successfully swayed peoples thinking about thoroughbreds stallions-- that is, one should not use one unless proven using the same standards as a WB stallion?

I am thinking this criteria maybe missing the point of what a xx brings to the genetic make-up, which a wb stallion (even if having the same physical attributes) cannot--along with the attriibutes noted by Maren-- another factor that Maren can no doubt speak better too--the prevention of the reversion to a heavier type which I thought under the laws of genetics will (not might) occurr without infusion of xx blood periodically. I thought that might have been a flaw in Mr Reed article in that it did not address that issue. Perhaps the westfal. stud book is feeling that pressure to infusion the xx back into the book?

(I also wonder about what proportion of xx are sprinter bred-- if you look at the doseage index of many a canter horse-that just does not seem to be always true.)

I rather like Ratibor--but then I already liked the looks of his maternal brother St Averil who is standing in MD. ;-)

[grayarabpony]

So based on the foregoing discussion, does this mean Mr Reed has successfully swayed peoples thinking about thoroughbreds stallions-- that is, one should not use one unless proven using the same standards as a WB stallion?



Unless they can jump, they will probably just prove Tom's point of being jump killers. Many TBs have already proven tremendous jumping ability. Ladykiller underwent jumping testing, and Cottage Son had already sired top eventers before being imported to Germany. Not to mention all of the TB Olympic medal winners. :)

TBs can add scope and agility, as well as speed, stamina and heart, if those qualities cannot be maintained in warmblood lines.

[DownYonder]

Even if we HAD “purpose bred” for horses such as Touch of Class, Idle Dice, etc., there is no way anyone could predict whether “we would have been WAY out in front of the Sporthorse production market”. The Europeans were also vigorously “purpose breeding”, and it is entirely possible that their breeding programs would have STILL out-stripped ours, at least in the production of top international dressage and jumping horses.

I’m sorry, but I have to agree with Maren on this. The European stallion licensing/testing system that Darlyn and others are so contemptuous of is the very one that has produced the stallions that have sired the majority of our top International horses, especially over the past 20 years or so, and again, especially in dressage and show jumping. It is ludicrous for anyone to suggest that that approach has been without merit.

[fannie mae]

the licensing criteria in westfalia with respect to the recent "late" licensing (usually 2-3 months after the main licensing which is open to 2 1/2 year old stallions only) is split up:
1. stallions WHITHOUT performance test
usually those from the current season (in this case 2006, those who are turning 3 this year) who, for whatever reason could or did not show up at the main event or failed at the main event and are now introduced to be given a second chance - these are required to go throught the full process incl free jumping.
2. stallions WITH performance test - open to any other stallion from (other) warmblood registries who already have a sport record to value their (own) performance on or (if younger) have passed an official SPT of any kind (30/70 or 300dt) - these need to be shown on hard ground and walk ring only. it is up to the owners if they want to show these stallions under saddle (jumping or dressage) or jumping at liberty.

in the case of tb stallions the same rules apply - a given race record with a minimum GAG (not sure how much that is - 80 kg?) is recognized as a performance test.

with respect to the two tb stallions in question these were treated as if they had a valid performance test (race record).
the reasons for the obvious violation of rules were neither given in writing, nor publicly discussed.
it did cause, however, a lot of talk and speculation amongst the breeders and in the public (internet discusison boards and at the scene during the licensing and already at the stallion show the day before). whatever the reasons might be, it surely did not help to establish
a) credibilty of the verband and
b) credibilty of the lady who runs the warendorf state stud.
even more so since both entities are not necessarily known to be "experts" or supporters of the tb-in-wb-breeding establishment within german sport horse breeding.

as such i would consider the current "sentiment" surrounding these two stallions rather a negative - the glass is half empty, not half full - since people question the resonable arguments behind this licensing. very understandable.

will this be to the good or the bad of the breed?
i consider it a complete neutral since in the end it is always the breeder himself who really "approves" a stallion:
by making use if him.
i doubt these stallions will recieve any mares or at least mares enough to prove themselves at all - to the good OR the bad. as it owuld still be in the cards for any stallion (with no history at all) to suddenly turn out to be the super producer - as much as any super selfperformance and pedigree proven stallion can as well turn out to be a poor producer (end product).

the unlucky handling of this specific matter however did leave a bitter taste of incredibility in peoples mind and that for sure can't be to the good of the breed.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Purpose breeding DOES have merit. The reason the Europeans have had success is that they are the ones purpose breeding, not that the system is so perfect. They have repeatedly changed the "system" (breed for speciallists, then no, change that to breed your dressage mares to jumper stallions - then add Holsteiner blood to the Hanoverians, nope we don't like the result, then later, now we are forced to do that because our system lost all of our Hanoverian jumping blood. Losing much of he G-line because the system did not work for later maturing lines.)

There are so many areas that the system has proven to not work, Why follow along blindly make the same mistakes? I think we have seen that a free market system usually brings the best product to market the fastest. I don't think we need to wait for what one Geman poster said about expecting the pendulum to swing. I think we can be ahead of the curve, not always looking to Germany and scrambling behind them.

[DMK]

As far as I know, this particular stallion in question has NOT been injured in racing or anywhere on a track. He has never seen one single race in his career. That is indeed different.

Yes, I was speaking more to the general flaws of using a race record and/or excluding a horse based on the threshold.

That said, nothing in life is flawless. You go with the best you can and hope for the best. But it's always good to know what the flaws are with any system.

[DownYonder]

Purpose breeding DOES have merit. The reason the Europeans have had success is that they are the ones purpose breeding, not that the system is so perfect. They have repeatedly changed the "system" (breed for speciallists, then no, change that to breed your dressage mares to jumper stallions - then add Holsteiner blood to the Hanoverians, nope we don't like the result, then later, now we are forced to do that because our system lost all of our Hanoverian jumping blood. Losing much of he G-line because the system did not work for later maturing lines.)

There are so many areas that the system has proven to not work, Why follow along blindly make the same mistakes? I think we have seen that a free market system usually brings the best product to market the fastest. I don't think we need to wait for what one Geman poster said about expecting the pendulum to swing. I think we can be ahead of the curve, not always looking to Germany and scrambling behind them.

So you are saying that they shouldn’t be continually trying to refine the process? That they should have picked a breeding direction and stuck to it, no matter what? That way leads to stagnation and the very real risk of being out-performed by someone else who IS willing to experiment with the process.

Now, here is where I know you are going to say that YOU are willing to experiment with the process. And that is all fine and good, however one has to ask how many international caliber "big ring" horses have been produced using YOUR system?

On another note, I am also wondering who is going to use these TB stallions. I cannot imagine very many dressage breeders taking much interest in them, since there are now PLENTY of modern type WB stallions to choose from, even for heavy old-style mares. I also cannot imagine very many show jumper breeders taking interest in them, esp. without seeing them jump. So is it possible they are being aimed at eventing breeders? And if so, will those breeders use them without seeing them jump?

[Maren]

Actually the opposite is true, as todays warmblood looks and moves like a classic TB.

I'm sorry but I could not disagree more. Besides, where are these classic TBs?

The real Warmblood look and movement is gone. My question is why would anyone choose a TB stallion that will contribute just stanima, soundness and longevity, when you could choose one that would also add elasticity in the gaits and a good jump? THIS selection criteria is why we see articles like Tom's that say the TB is a gait and jump destroyer. Yep! IF you pick the wrong ones.

I did not say that the TB I chose is only chosen on these three traits. Sorry for the unclear post. My point is: IF I chose a TB, and that TB does not even have the classic traits of a TB anymore, then why chose him?? If I can get a good trot and elasticity (which btw is very low in hereditary factors anyway), of course I will chose that stallion over the pure long distance runner with no other potential. However, and that may be only true for me and some others I know - a TB stallion that has not proven himself either as a race horse with a significant record (and that does not even mean winning - he can be slower, but needs to LAST on the track), or a performance horse in Olympic disciplines (Hand in Glove xx, Heraldik xx, Beg xx, Elan xx etc), is a stallion I would not breed to.

You really misunderstood me, especially because I actually agree with a lot of the arguments Tom brought forth in his article.


Germany IS looking to go to that in the future. .

Let's meet here when that has made it into the books.




I beg to differ, especially with my background as a Trakehner breeder. HUGE difference in selective breeding programs. For exactly this type of horse. Depending on what was needed more, the type of horse switched back and forth between cavalry mount and working stock, and due to that, the "excess" product was a top sport horse. Already a very long time ago. And each breed its own "type". You mention Morgans. We're discussing TBs for WB breeding. Very different. Or when did the last Morgan head the medal ranks at the Olympics. That is not meant as a bad comment on Morgan (I like them, actually a lot). But they have their own niche, and it's not one that we're discussing here, no?

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3846782]OTOH, more recently, we were the ones competing horses like Touch of Class, Idle Dice, Jet Run, etc, etc. We had an abundance of those horses, but stupidly/lazily/cheaply choose to not breed for them, but to take our luck with race rejects. We did not have the insight to see that the racing type would change to mostly sprinters, and dry up our abundant source.

I agree, although I'm not sure this is about being lazy. Some people still hang to that. Go ask Dorothy Rowland ;-)

Thanks omare, you've made all my points for me. And that is the discussion I have had with Tom - the only point where I find a flaw in his hypothesis. The simple fact that without continued infusion of quality TB blood, the modern sport horse type will get lost - gradually, but with certainty. It's up to us to find that new "good infusion", and some of us believe in the mare side doing it - others believe in stallions or no TBs at all.

i consider it a complete neutral since in the end it is always the breeder himself who really "approves" a stallion:
by making use if him.

100% agreement.

[grayarabpony]

I'm sorry but I could not disagree more. Besides, where are these classic TBs?





Gelded because they couldn't run. Not in the right hands so they can be put to use to become famous.

Those quality TBs do exist, ones with the jump and freedom in movement. I would have thought that if you wanted to use a stallion, you'd use something that could bring what a warmblood could bring to the table and then some.

Look at Mytens, by Spectacular Bid.

The stallions that are of the quality we are talking about -- really making a mark on a registry -- don't grow on trees. Not TBs, not even WBs.

[Home Again Farm]

Though I often agree with Fairview on many things, I totally disagree with the statement below. :no: A good modern WB retains the power, suspension and expression of gaits, yet may have a prettier head, more elegant overall look. The second set of qualities do not negate the former.

Actually the opposite is true, as todays warmblood looks and moves like a classic TB.

[EqTrainer]

Re: Usurpator - I really think it is possible their focus is on his damline. Caro is there but (sorry to keep repeating myself) there is Private Account. IF they are looking for the reliable passing on of jumping talent, there it is. I have ridden quite a few PA's and they always have more in common then less.

The question about what that stallion may bring to the table that another (presumably WB) stallion might not? A predicatable jump WITH high rideability and high trainability. Private Accounts are *easy*. A refining stallion that puts a great mind on his get - that might be worth something. Goodness knows it should be! I think everyone keeps looking to the sire line on this horse and it is possible that they are missing the point altogether.

Let's also not forget that sometimes people *really are* specifically looking for a TB to breed to.

[acottongim]

in addition to all of the above, Ratibor goes back to Diplomat Way in the damline. To give you an idea of the Diplomat Way jump, the horse in my profile pic is out of a Diplomat Way mare. There are also a few Diplomat Way hunters in this country that come through it by the sire line through a nice hunter stallion that died a few years ago called Our Diplomat. Skip Away is also out of a DW mare and while he's a race horse sire, he's generally recognized as a superior athlete (it's a given that you don't win $9M with a lack of athleticism and soundness). Horses closely bred to DW that I have seen are generally very attractive "classic hunter" horses, a very trainable/ridable horse and a better than average mover (Edited to add JUMPER, I meant JUMPER, not mover!). I've seen movement from world class hunter to really bad (that would be mine ;) ). Also, I've been around more than a few and they are all like that.

.

Have not read past this post yet (late coming to the party) but wanted to comment (before I get more sidetraked) that while, it is a ways back, I second everything DMK says here. I have a DW granddaughter and she, and all of her offspring are FANTASTIC jumpers!!! Or potential to jump (for the younger of the group). They are also without exception the smartest horses on the property and the bravest. Very easy to train and while they are forward they are also very "controlable" if that makes sense. Also DW is one of the leading Broodmare sires for race horses (or was a few years ago) and it is hard to find them outside of race circles. It excites me to see him pop up overseas in a sporthorse!

[tri]

So you are saying that they shouldn’t be continually trying to refine the process? That they should have picked a breeding direction and stuck to it, no matter what? That way leads to stagnation and the very real risk of being out-performed by someone else who IS willing to experiment with the process.

Well that is exactly what YOU have been advocating that American breeders do for quite some time! Every time someone starts to talk about "refining" the system here in the U.S. for the betterment of U.S. sporthorse breeders, you have a meltdown.

[DMK]

Besides, where are these classic TBs?

The classic TB is alive and well, it's just you can't afford to breed to them. The sport horse market simply isn't suited to where the real money is. If a TB sire makes it down to that level it's kind of a given he isn't very successful as a race horse. Once in a blue moon we get a sire with a record and a type like Loyal Pal or Our Diplomat, but it's not like that "type" is rare. It's just rare at a price we can afford.

Please note that is an entirely different discussion from whether that horse would improve/not improve a WB or whether WBs come in modern type and what that means (although to every hunter trainer over 35 it means "looks kind of like the TB I showed as a kid"). But effectively judging a TB in today's market means understanding about the new market forces of racing, the increase in tracks and lower level claiming and the overal boom in breeders who have a few mares as opposed to the selectively bred large broodmare bands that were more the norm until the late 80's.

[Maren]

My question about the "where are the classical TBs" was really rethorical. You spent enough time on the right tracks and race barns and you will eventually find them. It involves more work, no question.
And as someone mentioned Mytens xx - nice example of a horse NOT known to produce movement or elasticity, but enormous stamina and endurance. The show jumpers were not too keen on his get ("chickens at a certain height" is the quote I heard more often than not), but ask the eventers and they loved him. I would have bred to him in a heartbeat if he was still around, exactly my "type" of improvement TB sire.

From the TB stallion pool available in Europe right now, you can pick several tremendously interesting and promising sires for many years of good sport horse breeding, I have no doubt. It takes a bit more than looking at glossy stallion flyers and over-edited DVDs though ;-)

[DMK]

It takes a bit more than looking at glossy stallion flyers and over-edited DVDs though ;-)

I think we can all agree that is true of all stallions. ;)

[vineyridge]

Maren, here's what I consider the North American dilemma. If one has a TB mare that one wishes to use as a sport horse broodmare, the cost of the stud fee, the availability of AI, and the numerous possibilities for registration depending on the foal and sire selected are all factors that lead to using WB sires.

If one wishes to breed to a TB for a fully registered sport horse TB foal (and despite what Fish says, papers would be important to me), the DISincentives are huge. There are few studs who are proven in sport, either by performance or through their offspring. Ones that look good on paper have stud fees that are very high compared to WB stud fees. Hickstead, for example, has an ad in the Chronicle for $5500 for a frozen semen breeding, and that is on the very low end for a TB. I would love to find a good mare to breed to Siphon ($5k stud fee) http://www.pedigreequery.com/siphon because I think he has everything to make a good sport horse sire. But the stud fee is very high for sport horse breeding; to get papers, live cover is required, and there is no data on how his get will do in sport. I loved Running Stag, who stood for the same fee, was a million dollar racehorse, stood for 5k the last couple of years, and has an excellent pedigree for sport; but since he was a dud as a race horse sire for NA, he's been shipped off to Korea of all places. Now he is a horse that the WB breeders would have drooled over. From the pedigree and his history, Running Stag would produce slow maturing, turfy horses, which is exactly the type the WB world appreciates. The racing world here spit him out precisely for those attributes.

The only way most of us would be able to get even those relatively cheap stallions in a breeding program would be through failed racehorse daughters. A couple of Running Stag geldings were in the Adena Springs Canada retirement program. But even if they turned out to be exceptional sport horses, their sire is simply not available.

I guess what I'm saying in a very long winded fashion is that, except for some few stallions at the ends of their careers, like Roanoke, the TB breeding market for the "classic" TB is out of the financial reach of most of us, even with low end stallions. Why pay 5k for Siphon, when you can get Hickstead for $500 more?

[EqTrainer]

Good TB's are big money.

Aside from that, the notes from his pedigree say Usurpator himself sold for $650,000 as a yearling at Keeneland.

[DownYonder]

Good TB's are big money.

Aside from that, the notes from his pedigree say Usurpator himself sold for $650,000 as a yearling at Keeneland.

Yes, and I wonder how many hands he passed through before ending up with his current owner.

As an aside, I also find it interesting that both these TB stallions are owned by the same person - Natalia Timoshenko, UA-Kiew (Kiev, Ukraine). I would love to hear the story of how/why she acquired these stallions and how they ended up being licensed for breeding by a major German warmblood registry. I think it would make for an interesting read.

[EqTrainer]

Yes, and I wonder how many hands he passed through before ending up with his current owner.

As an aside, I also find it interesting that both these TB stallions are owned by the same person - Natalia Timoshenko, UA-Kiew (Kiev, Ukraine). I would love to hear the story of how/why she acquired these stallions and how they ended up being licensed for breeding by a major German warmblood registry. I think it would make for an interesting read.



Now that would be fun/interesting to find out...

[grayarabpony]

Yes, and I wonder how many hands he passed through before ending up with his current owner.



You're making it sound as though he went through a lot of people who weren't happy with him. Why insinuate that?

Most TBs don't go through many hands. They wash up on the racetrack, and are sold.

[DMK]

Too true. Depending on how good they thought he might be, the same trainer may have hung on to him all the way. That happens a lot with nicer horse. My hunter happened to be out of a fairly respectable mare and a freshman sire who was second only to John Henry in the FWH rankings. They never ran him through the sale, the same trainer hung on to him for the breeder/owner to the beginning of his 4 year old year. He started 2X as a 2 year old and never again. They never moved him down to lower tracks - he was a Belmont and Gulfstream horse all the way. But if you were to judge his race record, it is the poster child for FAIL.

However given the extreme smarts and success of his trainer and breeder, I'm guessing they saw something worth hanging on to for a good long while and trying to make it work. I'm guessing they knew he was hurting somewhere but saw real talent when he was feeling good and tried to unlock the code. How many horses have you known, where you just know there is serious talent locked up in that horse if only you could figure out how to tap it? Race horses are like that as well. Not all of them go through many hands, in fact both my hunters had (including me) 3 and 2 owners respectively.

However the whole Ukraine thing? I'm sticking with the story that the Kiev guy has a secret source to the Russian natural gas pipelines and he traded it to the Germans for full approval.

I read it on the interweb tubes so it must be true. (OK, I read it her, in the parapgraph above this one, but still, I read it!)

[EqTrainer]

This colt sold as a yearling for $650,000. Likely he went to ONE BNT and that was it, as he is pretty young now? 3? Sorry I don't have time to look it up again, I gotta run!

[ahf]

Ummmm.... if sold as a yearling, he likely went to a pinhooker, not a trainer.

[not again]

I'd feel better about this whole thread if the title had "receive" spelled correctly.;) Mostly I'm interested to see what these boys produce, the real proof of the value of a stallion in my eyes.

[Iron Horse Farm]

I owned a Caro grandaughter who scored very high at the Oldenburg approvals and then has produced a young jumper champion as well. One of the ones that you just kow that you should never have sold!
http://ironhorsefrm.com/sold.htm

Scroll WAY down to Kay Lorre'.

[camohn]

I'd feel better about this whole thread if the title had "receive" spelled correctly.;) Mostly I'm interested to see what these boys produce, the real proof of the value of a stallion in my eyes.

But before I bred to them to see what they produce I would want to see them freejump!
And they way it sounds so far the didn't do it or no one can see it....

[EqTrainer]

Ummmm.... if sold as a yearling, he likely went to a pinhooker, not a trainer.

Could be. Isn't there a way to check? Maybe Jenarby can do it.

But at that price...

[PineTreeFarm]

This colt sold as a yearling for $650,000. Likely he went to ONE BNT and that was it, as he is pretty young now? 3? Sorry I don't have time to look it up again, I gotta run!

Keeneland sales results say he sold to Lane's End Bloodstock, Agent

[DownYonder]

You're making it sound as though he went through a lot of people who weren't happy with him. Why insinuate that?

Most TBs don't go through many hands. They wash up on the racetrack, and are sold.

Yearlings sold at Keeneland usually go to pinhookers, who often sell them on to other pinhookers (or so I am told by a friend who breeds for the track).

And I am not insinuating that "a lot of people weren't happy with him". I am just wondering if it was his current owner that purchased him as a yearling, or if he followed the course of most yearlings and went through several pinhookers before Timoshenko bought him. Just curious, that is all. No need to get testy about it. :D

[DownYonder]

However the whole Ukraine thing? I'm sticking with the story that the Kiev guy has a secret source to the Russian natural gas pipelines and he traded it to the Germans for full approval.

I read it on the interweb tubes so it must be true. (OK, I read it her, in the parapgraph above this one, but still, I read it!)

Uh, I hope you aren't referring to my post about his owner being from Kiev. I said nothing about "a secret source to the Russian natural gas pipelines and he traded it to the Germans for full approval". Let's please not try to make anything more out of my comment than what I actually wrote. I am only curious about how a U.S. bred TB stallion got purchased by a Ukranian and then ended up in Germany licensed for WB breeding. It just sounds like an interesting story - that is all. No need to insinuate that anything nefarious went on.

[DownYonder]

But before I bred to them to see what they produce I would want to see them freejump!
And they way it sounds so far the didn't do it or no one can see it....

Amen. And the fact that apparently the stallions haven't been asked to jump as part of their licensing requirements - or if so, it was done privately and not in front of the public - is what makes the story of their licensing in Westphalia so interesting.

I still have to wonder if they were approved primarily as eventing sires, but again - would event breeders use them without seeing them jump?

[grayarabpony]

Yearlings sold at Keeneland usually go to pinhookers, who often sell them on to other pinhookers (or so I am told by a friend who breeds for the track).

And I am not insinuating that "a lot of people weren't happy with him". I am just wondering if it was his current owner that purchased him as a yearling, or if he followed the course of most yearlings and went through several pinhookers before Timoshenko bought him. Just curious, that is all. No need to get testy about it. :D

I'm not being testy. Just doubting that he went through several pinhookers, changed hands several times, however you want to phrase it.

I thought the whole point of pinhooking was selling them to an owner to race for profit. :)

The usual TBs I think of as changing hands many times are those that start out successful, are seen as making more money at the track than at stud (or are gelded), and are raced until their legs fall off.

[grayarabpony]

Uh, I hope you aren't referring to my post about his owner being from Kiev. I said nothing about "a secret source to the Russian natural gas pipelines and he traded it to the Germans for full approval". Let's please not try to make anything more out of my comment than what I actually wrote. I am only curious about how a U.S. bred TB stallion got purchased by a Ukranian and then ended up in Germany licensed for WB breeding. It just sounds like an interesting story - that is all. No need to insinuate that anything nefarious went on.

That was a joke.

Maybe. ;)

[EqTrainer]

I'm not being testy. Just doubting that he went through several pinhookers, changed hands several times, however you want to phrase it.

I thought the whole point of pinhooking was selling them to an owner to race for profit. :)

The usual TBs I think of as changing hands many times are those that start out successful, are seen as making more money at the track than at stud (or are gelded), and are raced until their legs fall off.


I agree w/this. It is doubtful this horse changed hands time and time again. He's not in that class.

[DMK]

remember, September yearlings are ready to go into training. It's not that they don't go to pinhookers, but plenty of them do go on to owners who intend to put them into training as their future racing stock (or depending on how they feel about them after a little training, move them on to the two year olds in training sale). Fall mixed sales of soon to be yearlings, yes I would say a lot more pinhooking. But plenty of people look for racing stock at yearling sales for the exact same reason as pinhookers. Yearling are a lot cheaper than two year olds in training. There's no reason to suppose this horse went to a pinhooker or did not. Although I suspect if he went in the select sale and bought a good price for his pedigree and conformation, it's a better bet he did not go to a pinhooker. Getting caught up in a bidding war makes for a bad business plan if your job is to turn a profit on resale in 6 months...