Getting an TB mare approved with no papers, but tatooed?

[chestnutmarebeware]

I'm sure this has been answered before, but I can't find any references. I have two OTTB mares that have nearly perfect TB confirmation, great breeding, movement and personalities, and very good race records. However, both previous owners/trainers retained the JC papers to protect their horses and make sure they were not raced again.

Is a tatoo number with pedigree info. sufficient to try for approval with one of the warnblood societies? And does a race record count as proof of performance, or do I need to put a couple of years into actual showing first?

Within a couple of years I would like to breed at least one of the girls to nice WB stallion (breed TBD) in order to produce a nice amateur horse for myself with a bit more substance than my super-refined girls. However, if the time came when I needed to sell the baby, I know being registered goes a long way toward attracting buyers.

Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

Both these mares were acquired through third parties—in one case the wonderful track vet at Bowie, and in the other case, a joint effort between Kim at Leighton Farm and the mare's trainer at Laurel, so I don't even know who the original owners were to ask them about papers!

[mistyjewell]

If their tattoos are legible, you can get a report done through either the jockey club or the trpb http://www.trpb.com/ to prove the mares are who they say they are. They also should have some DNA on file. So registries will accept just a print out of the horses pedigree's from pedigree query, other's need the full report included. Some will not accept them at all without offical papers, so it all depends on which breed you want to go with. I'd check that breed out, see what's needed, and get it taken care of before breeding just to make sure there are no problems with it.

[jherold]

I believe most of the "good" registries require the original papers. You can get the original papers reissued if the were in your possession and were subsequently "lost" or "destroyed". As I remember, I had to fill out a form, notarize a statement stating how I "lost" the papers and send in a slew of photos of the mare from all angles, tatoo, and a diagram of all her whorls and markings. That plus $100 and my mare was able to produce Appendix Quarter Horses!

[chestnutmarebeware]

Can I tell the JC the papers were "lost" if, in reality, I never received them from the original owner in the first place? And If they sold me dulicate copies of the papers, would I need the owner's signature on them to officially transfer ownership to me?

I do have complete tatoo numbers, as well as pedigree query pedigrees, but there's basically no chance of me tracking down the original owners.

Thanks for the advice so far!

[ahf]

Can't you contact the mare's trainer? THe racing secreatry at Laurel ought to be able to help you find the trainer.

THe trainer would know who the owner was. You could also run a "last five starts" report at Jockey Club Information Systems. That should give you the owner as well.

WIthout the original papers you are going to limited as to the registries, (and the marebooks) the mare could be presented to (and eligible for)

[TwoMares]

I have a OTTB that is registered in the main mare book of Oldenburg NA.
All I showed them was my printout from her tattoo research report, i think that cost me $50 and I also had her print out of her pedigree. Then i had to pay $25 for OLD/NA to call Jockey Club and get a fax stating that my mare was indeed a registered TB with them. Depending on who you get at the jockey club depends on how nice they are about providing that information. It takes a bit more work but I found that oldenburg was the easiest to go with. I think you can also do this in AWS. The stallion I was breeding to is approved OLD/NA so that is the registry I preferred.

Feel free to PM me and I can give you more details of the process and who I talked to.

[sixpoundfarm]

You can get the original papers reissued if the were in your possession and were subsequently "lost" or "destroyed". As I remember, I had to fill out a form, notarize a statement stating how I "lost" the papers and send in a slew of photos of the mare from all angles, tatoo, and a diagram of all her whorls and markings. That plus $100 and my mare was able to produce Appendix Quarter Horses!

This is correct, I just went through the process. You need the Duplicate Cert. form from the JC, a notarized statement of what happened to the papers,copy of your bill of sale, $150.00, 4 photos of the horse and tatoo info if available.

[Foxtrot's]

My mare is a TB but was sporthorse bred and never had JC papers. But she is a Canadian Sport Horse and in the Main Mare Book of Oldenberg N/A as well as Performance Horse Registry (for whatever that is worth). I consider Oldenburg N/A a "good" registry.

[sixpoundfarm]

Can I tell the JC the papers were "lost" if, in reality, I never received them from the original owner in the first place? And If they sold me dulicate copies of the papers, would I need the owner's signature on them to officially transfer ownership to me?

I do have complete tatoo numbers, as well as pedigree query pedigrees, but there's basically no chance of me tracking down the original owners.

Thanks for the advice so far!

The JC does not maintain an ownership database, they will record transfers, etc.. but the woman I dealt with said that was not necessary.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Unless Old NA has changed their rules, they will accept your mare if you can provide proof of pedigree that matches her tattoo. This means doing the tatoo research, bringing the paperwork with you to an inspection and then they will make sure the tattoo matches the paperwork. I did this with a mare about 4 years ago and she was a MMB mare.

[mistyjewell]

I have always been under the impression (from talking to the JC) that you have to have a notarized bill of sale showing transfer of ownership from the last recorded owner of the mare (which, I believe they do have) This prevents someone from stealing a tattooed mare, sending in $150 and saying woops! lost the papers!

I got my mare through a 3rd party as well, the previous owners did not want to release her papers with her to prevent her from racing again.

And many "good" registries do accept the reports from the trpb, along with copy of pedigree. As I mentioned, sometimes they require DNA on record as well.

With these information my mare is approved both RPSI and ISR OLD/NA (both MMB) and I have been told that I would also still be able to get register A for KWPN foals if I ever desired to. I can also breed her to a TB stallion (LC) and get a JC registered foal without her papers... so not sure what "good" means, just that some have different rules. I believe GOV and AQHA (or whatever appendix horses would be registered under) have to have the orginals, but I haven't looked into more then those registries.

[Summit Springs Farm]

Also if you are not the owner of record with the JC they will not release the DNA to the registries. No biggie, though, it costs $60 to get new DNA.;)

[CowgirlDressage]

Also if you are not the owner of record with the JC they will not release the DNA to the registries. No biggie, though, it costs $60 to get new DNA.;)

So, even though they tell you that you don't need to send in the papers when you get a TB mare, you really should to get it on record if you want to breed her and need the DNA record for the resulting foal?

Great. Sigh. I asked a million questions, and everyone kept telling me that I did NOT need to send her papers in, just keep them safe, etc. SIGH!

[DownYonder]

To the OP - if interested in getting them approved by Oldenburg (GOV), you might want to contact Holly Simensen in the FL office and ask her about the possibilities. I was told at one time that the reason Oldenburg insisted on official registration papers was to ensure proper chain of ownership, but they may have a work-around for situations such as yours. You can find contact info at http://www.oldenburghorse.com .