Cribbing... and obligation to tell

[Spike]

At a dinner with friends the other day, we were having a discussion about a 2yo filly we know who started to crib one day, out of no where, her owner was feeling very sad as she did everything to give the filly the best life possible. I mean, no other horses with that behavior in the barn, she is living out 24/7 with buddies of her age, plenty of forage, no stress episodes, nothing. So where the heck she took that habit??

We ended to the point that we were wondering: When you sell a horse, you must tell people that the horse is a cribber. But when someone breed/buy a foal, does stallion owner has any obligation to reveal to mare owner that their stallion cribs... Or, does mare owner has the obligation to reveal that the dam of the selling foal is a cribber??

Is any genetic part into this behavior? I can understand if a foal take example on his dam and do the same (this is also controversial all the see-and-reproduce-habits, but it's a whole other discussion), but if the sire cribs, does baby can have a predisposition?

[equinelaw]

Yes. You have discovered he perfect example of how a recessive gene is expressed with spontaneous cribbing. No bad mommy needed. Just the potential and the opportunity and one day they just crib.

As far as obligation, in places where disclosure of vices or lameness are required, cribbing is on the list. So, for example auctions or states where disclosure is required would void the sale if the cribbing was discovered. If there is no requirement, its still a useful guideline to decide if telling about the cribbing is on the same level as telling about founder or heaves.

All that said, many threads on COTH have shown less then half of buyers care about cribbing if everything else is great.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . Is any genetic part into this behavior? I can understand if a foal take example on his dam and do the same (this is also controversial all the see-and-reproduce-habits, but it's a whole other discussion), but if the sire cribs, does baby can have a predisposition?

Based on what I've read, research shows the predisposition to crib IS GENETIC. U of PA (New Bolton) has kept cribbers & non-cribbers together 24/7/365 & never has a non-cribber started to crib. We have that same experience. We bought a cribbing mare in 2001 - she has been out with our mares since & none of our mares has started to crib.

Yes, cribbing can come from the sire as well as the dam. A number of years ago, when Rotspon was early in his popularity, there were several discussions on this board because he sired so many cribbers & mare owners had not been warned.

To me, it doesn't matter whether a horse is a cribber.

[talloaks]

It matters to me a great deal if the horse is a cribber!! I didn't know that it is a genetic predisposition and since it is all stallion owners should reveal is their stallions crib, and mares owners likewise.

[not again]

As a trainer we have found that increased demands in training raise stress levels enough that some cribbers want to crib on the bit, during a line of two tempis, for instance. This makes it very hard to be accurate with the aids and have the right result.

[okggo]

You know some times I wonder....nature vs nurture on this...

I was at a boarding stable that had no cribbers. They purchased an OTTB with a 24/7 wood sucking frenzy. Within 3 months or so of that horse coming, the 3 year old filly he was out with started it. Soon after a WEANLING on the property started it.

Now...old day thinking would say, they copied him, learned it from him.

But, it also happens that this farm fed limited hay, had no grass/forage and very limited turnout, and heavy sweet feed diets. So perhaps even if that horse hadn't come, the other 2 would have started b/c of the constant stomach aches.

I think it is completely dishonest NOT to disclose cribbing. Some people (myself included) absolutely WOULD NOT want one. I don't care if they prove for 200% they don't learn it and guarantee none of the other horses would pick it up, I can't stand the noise, the destructiveness, and the increased chance of health problems (teeth is the first thing that comes to mind).

Edited to add, that weanling is now a chain cribber, a WB by a well known stallion and I don't know of any other of his offspring OR the mares that crib. I'm pretty much 100% sure it was environment.

[europa]

I really can't believe that this is even up for discussion....all vices should be foreclosed beforehand and the extent to which they occur.

HELLO........it isn't like the horse will stop cribbing. They ARE going to find out and then your credibility as the seller goes down the toilet.

[Spike]

I think some people didnt read my question...

It is OBVIOUS that when selling a horse it is an obligation to reveal if he cribs, etc.

My question was... does a stallion owner, or a mare owner has to disclose it to potential breeding clients (for the SO) or when selling a foal that is a NON cribber but has a dam that IS a cribber...

EVERY breeding stallions around the world are ALL non-cribbers?? They are refused at their inspection or people gueld them? If it's genetics... So the whole problem is because of mares?? Never from stallions?? We, as mare owners, knows if a mare crib or not and some people decides to breed even if the mare is a cribber... Enlighted decision... But when breeding to stallions that you cannot see in person (and even if) nothing says that he cribs, weaves, etc... Would people continue to breed to a stallion if it was revealed that he cribs?

[ahf]

I think the question was....if the PARENTS are cribbers...are you required to disclose. I think everyone agrees that if the horse that is being purchased is a cribber you have an obligation to disclose it.

And if that was the question, it's an interesting one.

(sorry Spike. was posting the same time as you. thanks for clarifying)

[Texarkana]

My filly sounds a lot like the filly in the original post. I have raised her since birth, neither parent cribbed, and I gave her the best, low-stress lifestyle I could provide. Then she started cribbing out of the blue as a 2 y/o. Let me tell you, it makes you feel like a failure of a horse parent when that happens...

Anyways...

I agree if the parents crib, the breeder should disclose. But cribbing parents does not guarantee a cribber. The trait definitely seems to have some sort of recessive link. Also, cribbing often doesn't start until later in life. So the breeder may SELL a non-cribbing youngster, only to have said horse become a cribber later down the line. Which can make for a real gray area.

In this day and age of so much breeding being done via cooled/frozen semen, I often wonder how many popular stallions crib. It's becoming increasingly rare to see the stallion in person, let alone observe any vices he may have. It's all on the stallion owner to disclose that information.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here stand a cribbing stallion/know someone who stands a cribbing stallion? How is it handled from an advertising standpoint? I've always wondered that...

[ise@ssl]

Additional research is showing a relationship between cribbing and ULCERS. The horses crib to create saliva which is an alkaline - they do this to neutralize acid in the stomach.

With respect to genetic links - and following the studies in Europe on the ulcer connection - it may well be that horses are really no predisposed to CRIBBING but they may be predisposed to ULCERS. In other words there may be an imbalance in their gutt which required attention to diet and stress levels. Specificially any sugars in the feed because sugar turns to acid in the stomach. Horses that crib will usually increase their cribbing when they anticipate being fed and when eating their grain. Again - the relates to increasing the saliva to self medicate themselves.

Disclosing cribbing is abolutely required. It is considered a vice.

Also, horses that crib do NOT colic more than horses that don't - there has been research proving this.

[fordtraktor]

If the buyer asks if the baby's parents crib, they should be answered honestly. I don't think that a seller has the obligation to affirmatively offer that information if the buyer doesn't inquire. If the buyer is interested in that information, they can ask -- and as a buyer, this is what I expect.

[KnKShowmom]

Additional research is showing a relationship between cribbing and ULCERS. The horses crib to create saliva which is an alkaline - they do this to neutralize acid in the stomach.

With respect to genetic links - and following the studies in Europe on the ulcer connection - it may well be that horses are really no predisposed to CRIBBING but they may be predisposed to ULCERS. In other words there may be an imbalance in their gutt which required attention to diet and stress levels. Specificially any sugars in the feed because sugar turns to acid in the stomach. Horses that crib will usually increase their cribbing when they anticipate being fed and when eating their grain. Again - the relates to increasing the saliva to self medicate themselves.

As I am reading this, I am thinking of all of the successful show horses I know who are cribbers and I guess the common thought is that the stress of that life creates the cribber when this research would show that the stress of their career predisposes them to ulcers, which if not caught in a timely manner will then lead to cribbing as a form of relief???

[Texarkana]

Additional research is showing a relationship between cribbing and ULCERS. The horses crib to create saliva which is an alkaline - they do this to neutralize acid in the stomach.

With respect to genetic links - and following the studies in Europe on the ulcer connection - it may well be that horses are really no predisposed to CRIBBING but they may be predisposed to ULCERS. In other words there may be an imbalance in their gutt which required attention to diet and stress levels. Specificially any sugars in the feed because sugar turns to acid in the stomach. Horses that crib will usually increase their cribbing when they anticipate being fed and when eating their grain. Again - the relates to increasing the saliva to self medicate themselves.



It was my understanding that current research was migrating away from this theory. Mainly because not all horses with ulcers crib, and not all horses that crib have ulcers. For example, my own personal horse's stomach scoped clean as a whistle.

I do think there was recent research indicating that cribbers may have different gastric pH readings than non-cribbers. I believe the results indicated that cribbers' gastric pH was actually MORE acidic when cribbing than not. That data conflicts with the self-medicating theory.

Abstract:
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/ansc/ResPrograms/gastric_ph1.html

[peskee]

I have a 23 YO gelding who cribbed so bad he has no top teeth, a 20 YO WB gelding who also was a severe cribber, and a 19 YO WB gelding also a cribber. They no longer crib. They do not wear straps. They all go out half a day and in half a day and do have access to areas that they could crib. It is possible given the right environment to stop the cribbing. I have never seen a horse start cribbing because another horse cribbed. With the exception of mares and their foals. I have seen foals start cribbing if the dam has been let crib while nursing. I personally feel it is a boredom issue. With proper fencing, diet and plenty area to graze and browse they have no need to crib. I would not hesitate to own a cribber. I do feel it is something that needs to be disclosed.

[DMK]

I think a seller can safely pass on telling the purchaser if the dam/sire cribs. First of all, it is very likely they may not know. In this day and age of AI stallions not being local to the breeder it is very likely that they may not have seen the stallion in person. And if you buy a weanling and then sell it as a 3 year old under saddle, it's very likely you won't have a clue about the cribbing status of its parents.

There's just too many loopholes in this particular situation that well meaning honest people could get screwed over by, not to mention the fact that although I do believe there is a genetic element to cribbing, it is by no means a certain one. We can't even quantify the genetics + circumstances and what those circumstances and genes are, so it seems a bit over the top to try and bind a sale to so many unknowns. That's just not fair to good sellers and buyers anywhere.

[Evalee Hunter]

If the buyer asks if the baby's parents crib, they should be answered honestly. I don't think that a seller has the obligation to affirmatively offer that information if the buyer doesn't inquire. If the buyer is interested in that information, they can ask -- and as a buyer, this is what I expect.

Depends on the breed & situation. If you are selling a TB at a TB auction, you are required (by the rules governing that situation) to reveal cribbing as well as certain other situations, such as surgery the animal may have had, etc. So, in some situations you have to tell, whether the buyer asks or not.

[Sonesta]

DMK, I'm with you on this one. Too many unknowns out there surrounding this vice. Why "brand" a young horse with "potential cribber" label just because one of it's parents cribbed? And how far back do you go if it's a recessive gene? And how far back do you hold people responsible for disclosing it after a horse passes through several owners?

[fordtraktor]

Depends on the breed & situation. If you are selling a TB at a TB auction, you are required (by the rules governing that situation) to reveal cribbing as well as certain other situations, such as surgery the animal may have had, etc. So, in some situations you have to tell, whether the buyer asks or not.

Obviously this is true if the horse cribs, but you don't have to tell whether its parents crib for a TB auction, do you? That's the question here.

[Texarkana]

DMK, I'm with you on this one. Too many unknowns out there surrounding this vice. Why "brand" a young horse with "potential cribber" label just because one of it's parents cribbed? And how far back do you go if it's a recessive gene? And how far back do you hold people responsible for disclosing it after a horse passes through several owners?

I don't think a breeder has to "brand" a horse a potential cribber. Nor do I think a breeder should necessarily be held accountable if a horse becomes a cribber. But I do think it's courteous to give buyers a heads up that momma/daddy cribbed if they have the information. Especially since some folks are vehemently opposed to owning cribbers.

[hessy35]

I think some people didnt read my question...

It is OBVIOUS that when selling a horse it is an obligation to reveal if he cribs, etc.

My question was... does a stallion owner, or a mare owner has to disclose it to potential breeding clients (for the SO) or when selling a foal that is a NON cribber but has a dam that IS a cribber...

EVERY breeding stallions around the world are ALL non-cribbers?? They are refused at their inspection or people gueld them? If it's genetics... So the whole problem is because of mares?? Never from stallions?? We, as mare owners, knows if a mare crib or not and some people decides to breed even if the mare is a cribber... Enlighted decision... But when breeding to stallions that you cannot see in person (and even if) nothing says that he cribs, weaves, etc... Would people continue to breed to a stallion if it was revealed that he cribs?

A horses great grand sire could have been a cribber and thats why she cribs. You just never know with genetics. It's a crap shoot.

[pintopiaffe]

This is, I think, one of the pitfalls of the wonder of modern breeding--AI & Frozen.

For *me*, it has always been important to physically meet the stallion. I KNOW my mares, inside & out... I want to get to know the Daddy as much as possible. With AI I have to become as educated as possible, hopefully find *someone* who knows the stallion personally whom I trust, communicate with the SO probably more than *they* wish... etc. etc.

Cribbing is the kind of thing I'd notice if I got to know him more... saw him in turnout, casually, not just at shows and being presented. (well aware it can be tactfully hidden.)

I love the choices I have AI, but to me this is one of the nuances that I miss.

Perhaps many folks here have far more 'connections' and HAVE this information about stallions on other continents... obviously some stallion owners I get to know a little better and develop a level of trust... but if they're one of the large group of 'dosen't matter' folks, would they even consider it something NEEDING to be disclosed? IOW, there's not a deliberate thing about it, they're not telling because they don't think it's a problem... ???

[Equilibrium]

I actually didn't know there was a genetic link. I thought basically if they saw other horses cribbing or if they had bad stomachs they might pick up the habit. So this is quite interesting to me.

On the flip side of that, a horse that we bought was a cribber. None of his brothers or sisters cribbed nor did his mother, don't know about daddy. Actually his gelding buddy when with us was by the same stallion and he doesn't crib so that's interesting. But he didn't pick the habit up til he was 7. I was around the horse from the time he was 4. Anyway, there was one horse in the barn that cribbed. I assumed he picked it up from him and he was also stalled quite a lot. He lived out most of the time with us as he would crib while in if a grid wasn't up on the door. I also have a mare that cribs now and again. It's not something she does all the time. She's raised a couple of foals and none of them has picked up the habit. More importantly, out of 33 horses on the place, she's the only one who has this tendency.

If someone were to ask me if one of my mares cribs, then I will be honest and tell them. I will always disclose any vices or issues if someone is buying a horse from us. It's hard to sell horses, but if your not up front you only end up with headaches later.

Terri

[equinelaw]

It was my understanding that current research was migrating away from this theory. Mainly because not all horses with ulcers crib, and not all horses that crib have ulcers. For example, my own personal horse's stomach scoped clean as a whistle.

I do think there was recent research indicating that cribbers may have different gastric pH readings than non-cribbers. I believe the results indicated that cribbers' gastric pH was actually MORE acidic when cribbing than not. That data conflicts with the self-medicating theory.

Abstract:
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/ansc/ResPrograms/gastric_ph1.html

Which would be me. I proposed the buffer idea. I was wrong. No ulcer or acid or stress connection at all. There are 4 more studies form Auburn that go with this one and a few that never got published.

I moved on and realized the genetic link after seeing horses start to crib. Only difference was the parents--not the environment. In fact, same father but some of the mothers made cribbers with him while some did not.

[DMK]

But I do think it's courteous to give buyers a heads up that momma/daddy cribbed if they have the information. Especially since some folks are vehemently opposed to owning cribbers.

Courtesy is all well and fine, but that is a far different standard than "obligation" especially in a contract!

Now if I ASKED if the sire or dam is a cribber and asked a person who should reasonably have this knowledge, that's a different story. I think if you care enough about this problem you would do that. I think you would be silly since I have seen full siblings by a sire who cribbed, and oops, some cribbed, some did not. I've seen cribbers from sires and dams who did not crib. Who can say why?

[Paula]

I have a now coming four year old filly who started cribbing during a severe bout with ulcers (see http://www.pbase.com/finnskeeper/galiannas_ulcers for the horrible scoping pictures) at about 9 months old. The interesting thing is she cribbed heavily for about six months when the ulcers were a problem but stopped cribbing when we cleared up the ulcers. I have met the sire and dam and numerous half sibblings from both the sire and dam and none crib. She was pastured next to a field with two horses that cribbed so she did have cribbing "examples". She hasn't cribbed now for several years. We never used any kind of a cribbing collar or any anticribbing device on her. Only treated with ulcer meds and antibiotics.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I used to believe there was both a genetic connection and an environmental issue, but I am no longer convinced of that. We had a yearling here that was out of a mom that did crib, She was a nervous type. The owner took her home as a companion to her other mare that was a cribber, and did not wear a strap. They were stabled next to each other, 4' wall between them, and only the 2 of them turned out together. I really thought the yearling would start cribbing, but no, she never did, and I believe she is in her late teens now.

We had a mare come in for breeding several years ago during that horrible muddy VA spring (year - remember the mud thread?). The mare's sire and dam did not crib, and she was about 8 years old, also had never been a cribber, or around any cribbers for her whole life. She was in my barn for about a month, turned out in a small paddock, and it was SO muddy. She was bred, but her owner had some delays coming to pick her up, and she started to crib. I was shocked. We didn't have any other cribbers on the property. I called her owner, and she came up that next weekend. At home, she never cribbed again. I think she was just miserable living with the mud.

[DMK]

That's just it. There are genetic indicators, environmental indicators, stress indicators, "example" indicators, and every last person on this thread can tell you with great certainty about a case where that did/did not result in a cribber.

How the hell do you quantify THAT for the offspring when it comes to a contract?

[equinelaw]

At this time there is no proof that its is genetic. But all the varying stories are still explained by a recessive gene. You get about a 25% chance on average that the offspring will crib if one or neither parent cribs but they carry the gene. And when and if they start or how much they do it is a crap shoot.

I do wonder how many you get when you cross cribber x cribber, but I am still waiting to hear about a bunch of those.

I do not think there is any obligation to disclose unless you are asked. Its an untested theory. If it were tested and shown to be true then I guess it would be like that QH thing where the papers say what genes are carried and let the buyers decide?

My personal experience with cribbers (including the research herd of them I worked with) is that they colic. Between the prejudice of BOs and BMs, the potential for colic, the fact that being a cribber can be a hard life and those that hate them make then out to be the devil's horses, I would not breed cribbers.

Which is one reason there is no proof its genetic. I would not breed a few dozen cribbers to prove it one way or the other. Nobody else has done the research either.

In reality, since I did my grad work on cribbing and therefore read all cribbing threads, this is the first time I have ever seen this questions asked. I think most people do not even think its genetic and will not care if you disclose or not. In fact, even if you disclose most people will not care.

If a client came to me and asked me to sue because the horse started cribbing and they had not been informed the parents cribbed, could I argue the case??? No chance in hell and I am am the one who first proposed the genetic link in modern literature. My grad adviser starting quoting me and some others picked up on it, but that's not proof-its just a theory I think could be proved. I can't even prove my own theory in court.

Is it ethical to not disclose? I think its better to say something and I am sure in most cases nobody will care anyway. As you can see, many still think its the environment that causes cribbing. Disclose away.:)

[shawneeAcres]

I had the exact same thing happen years ago with a colt that was owned by a friend of mine. She owned the dam and sire, and also had owned the dam of both of those. No cribbing at all in the pedigree, the colt was on 24/7 turnout, fed twice daily, out with other younsters the same age, plenty of grass etc. One day we noticed him cribbing on his feed bucket. Why, who knows, but I don't feel that it is genetic or learned behavoir, just soemthing that some figure out

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't feel that it is genetic or learned behavoir, just soemthing that some figure out

That is what I tend to think, after 30+ years of boarding, and seeing all kinds of examples. I think to prove a genetic thing, you would have to be able to trace every cribber to a cribber in their pedigree, and I just don't believe that is true. I have seen nervous horses crib, calm horses crib, horses with ulcers that did not crib, nervous horses that did not crib, etc, etc.

We just don't know why some horses crib, and others don't.

[Peg]

A friend in Germany said it's the smart ones that crib!:lol:Peg

[equinelaw]

That is what I tend to think, after 30+ years of boarding, and seeing all kinds of examples. I think to prove a genetic thing, you would have to be able to trace every cribber to a cribber in their pedigree, and I just don't believe that is true. I have seen nervous horses crib, calm horses crib, horses with ulcers that did not crib, nervous horses that did not crib, etc, etc.

We just don't know why some horses crib, and others don't.

Naw, you just have to breed cribber x cribber about 20 times and see how many of the offspring crib. If its more than 1 you got something. If its more then 5 you got something that makes you famous. But you also have 20 babies who might crib.

If you really want to get fancy you would do embryo transfer to non-cribbers.

[eventrider]

There was a study published in Equus that said that if the mare cribs the foals has a 90% chance of cribbing and if the sire cribs the foals has an 85% chance of cribbing. I personally believe that horses crib due to ulcers and/or stomach upset. It would make sense that the nervousness that leads to ulcers could be genetic....and that causes the cribbing.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Naw, you just have to breed cribber x cribber about 20 times and see how many of the offspring crib. If its more than 1 you got something. If its more then 5 you got something that makes you famous. But you also have 20 babies who might crib.

If you really want to get fancy you would do embryo transfer to non-cribbers.

I disagree. I don't think you could rule out an environmental factor - especially if the mom cribbed.

I also think you may find some managment styles are more likely to produce cribbers, so you would have to have a control group.

If it was easy to prove, it would have been done by now.

(If that is how you researched for your thesis, you are lucky I was not your professor :lol: )

[grayarabpony]

A friend in Germany said it's the smart ones that crib!:lol:Peg

I believe it. The smart ones are the ones that get bored more quickly.

[equinelaw]

I disagree. I don't think you could rule out an environmental factor - especially if the mom cribbed.

I also think you may find some managment styles are more likely to produce cribbers, so you would have to have a control group.

Not really, they would all have moms who cribbed and you control for diet and environment.

The world is the control group since cribbing rates are pretty stable. About 5%. Up to 90% of race horses have ulcers. 90% do not crib.

You would treat it the same way you would discover genes for color. Because you are not trying to test for environmental factors. . .and we have no known environmental factors to control for. Just guesses and correlation. Just make sure all the babies are in the same environment--whatever that may be.

But all this doubt that its genetic proves the point that disclosure is unnecessary.

I already explained why I didn't test it. I will not breed lots of cribbers. Since my Grad adviser got so many papers out of my ideas they are still being cited here 10 years later, I guess she felt lucky to have me. Which academic papers that you published are being cited here? I guess I was lucky to have her too!

[DownYonder]

We almost bought a stallion in Germany a few years back, but the deal was killed when we found him cribbing in his stall. He was 12 y/o and they swore he had never cribbed before - the manager was actually in disbelief when we reported it to him at dinner that night. He called his head rider right then and there and she said she had never seen the horse crib before, either. In all honesty, the horse rather acted like he wasn't sure what he was doing - he didn't go right at it like a confirmed cribber does, but rather seemed to experiment a bit before latching on and sucking. When we went back the next day, he had a cribbing strap on. My business partner backed out, though - it was her barn and she said there was no way she was bringing in a cribbing stallion. FWIW, he was from a line mentioned on this thread for producing cribbers. I am convinced that some horses are genetically predisposed to it, but that there are other triggers involved, such as environment, type of feed, amount of turn-out, stress from training, traveling, competing, etc.

[Donella]

I bought a fabulous OO Seven colt as a two year old. He was out on a quarter section with one other colt, fed round bales and basically not touched. He cribbed since he was weaned. I was told of his cribbing prior to buying him (had no idea how bad it was though). I changed his diet and treated him for ulcers, but nothing changed except for when I electrified his pen...though he then decided that cribbing on his pasturemates withers was a good idea!

Last year I read the offspring report of OO Seven and there is direct reference to the fact that many of his offspring crib. I know there likely isnt a gene that causes cribbing, but perhaps a certain termperament (mine is SUPER senstive and extremely intelligent) that predisposes them to expressing such a behavior.

[imapepper]

As a trainer we have found that increased demands in training raise stress levels enough that some cribbers want to crib on the bit, during a line of two tempis, for instance. This makes it very hard to be accurate with the aids and have the right result.

That is really interesting. I would have never thought of that. I have had several cribbers and only have issues in the barn. The one we have now is such a mild cribber (ulcers) that he doesn't even need a strap in the paddock.

And I have also observed that cribbing is not contagious. I worked at a breeding farm that had several youngsters in the pasture together 24/7. One was a horrible cribber and the other 7 never picked it up. That colt's dam didn't crib either. I would be interested (after reading this thread) to know whether his sire cribbed or passed the trait on consistantly to his other offspring.

[Spike]

So en résumé...

In general, people would say that if not asked specifically, stallion owners would not be faulty if they do not reveal spontaneously to mare owners (Clients) that the stallion they stand is a cribber, and that there is couple of very renown sires that people use worldwide that if they are not themselves cribbers, some of them have a tendency to give that habit to offspring

On the mare side, again, if not asked, people would not spontaneously scream loud and happily that the dam of said foal (for sale and with potential buyers around) is a cribber as it might be genetics, but it is likely still on the fence just like ocd (genetics?? nutritionnal?? environemental??, savant mélange of those 3 elements??)

So, as foals buyers, if the cutie doesnt cribs himself, it's a crapshot unless you ask about the parents (and often, sellers knows only about momma) AND get honest answer ... do I get it correct?

[GrandPrixNYFL1]

EquineLaw wrote: "Since my Grad adviser got so many papers out of my ideas they are still being cited here 10 years later, I guess she felt lucky to have me. Which academic papers that you published are being cited here? I guess I was lucky to have her too!"

When you refer to 'you' in your second to last sentence, who are you referring to? What is the point in continuously referencing that you have written an article about cribbing etc. in the past? Your Grad adviser, article, published, etc. stop blowing your own horn... Its worse than cribbing.

[Kyzteke]

At a dinner with friends the other day, we were having a discussion about a 2yo filly we know who started to crib one day, out of no where, her owner was feeling very sad as she did everything to give the filly the best life possible. I mean, no other horses with that behavior in the barn, she is living out 24/7 with buddies of her age, plenty of forage, no stress episodes, nothing. So where the heck she took that habit??


I bred one like this as well. They say cribbing has a genetic component, but in this case I know for a fact that neither the sire nor the dam were cribbers. No other horse in the herd was a cribber. The filly was a "wood chewer" almost from Day One and LOVED to chew on the pine tree bark. Again, like your friend's filly, my gal was turned out 24/7 her whole life, etc.

And the weirdest thing was that this filly was actually a rather mellow gal -- NOT high strung at all.

I never did figure out WHY she started cribbing, but she did -- when she went to be started u/s she was 3 (and not around any other cribbers) and she came back cribbing -- and has never stopped to this day...she's 11 now, I think.

Luckily she sold to a gal who wasn't bothered by it, because the mare was/is so wonderful in so many other ways -- took extra special care of this rather green rider out alone on miles & miles of trails and really has no other vices. Sweet, sweet mare. The owner said (rather realistically, I think) "well, I've been known to crib alittle myself when it comes to Haagen-Daaz."

Seriously, we certainly aren't perfect -- not sure why we expect horses to be....

I'm not sure owners of sires/ & dams need to bring up the fact that the horse is a cribber, but if asked they should always tell the truth.

Again, cribbing does tend to drive me nuts, but there are lots worse habits a horse can have.

[ilikridn]

I have a filly who is turning two this year who has been very, very oral from day one. Early on, would hang her tongue out the side of her mouth constantly, and also in this way would "lick" the pipe rail fence. When I halter her, it usually takes a few tries as she takes the halter in her mouth (she will be EASY to bridle) several times, then she grabs the lead rope in her mouth and chews on it. She no longer hangs her tongue out the side of her mouth, thank goodness! If I ride a horse in her pasture, she comes up and grabs the reins, bridle, etc. and I have to keep her away. Always wants to "taste" everything.

She is not a nervous type, is very, very friendly, loves people and follows us around like a puppy in the pasture. Likes to play. Her dam is not a cribber.

I'm wondering... for those of you who said you had young ones that started cribbing, were they oral as babies, always mouthing everything?