Using stallions you haven't seen?

[stolensilver]

I'm posting this to generate discussion. Please feel free to post your opinions and stallion-choosing methods, especially if you disagree. I think this could be very interesting and informative.


I have always felt deep stirrings of misgivings when breeders have used a stallion they have not seen in the flesh. The reasons behind this reaction isn't something that is easy to articulate but I've just read an interview by one of Germany's most successful breeders, Dr Max Schulz of Stellenfleth and he has the same view. He is the breeder of Garibaldi I and II, Brentano I and II and Wolkenstein I and II.


"I prefer to use stallions in my neighbourhood. If we use stallions further away we have to take the mare and foal, and that's too far. You can use chilled semen, but you can't get any on Sunday or Monday, then if you miss, you might have to wait two or three weeks before you can breed the mare."
"In former times when you went to a mare show, all the mares were from the local stallions - Grande, Bolero, Wendekreis. Now they are from all over the Hanoverian region, and the breeders often don't know the stallions - they look at the fine photos, then the 'numbers' (the breeding rankings) and notes."
"In former times, there were no statistics. Breeders looked at the horses in question. How good do they look? Now there is a flood of numbers, part of that is good - but for the individual horse it is dangerous. When breeders only look at numbers and believe they have a real picture of the horse, it is very dangerous. The breeder must look for himself, and the breeder starts looking at the birth of the foal."


How do you choose which stallions you use? Does knowing the stallion personally matter to you?

One of my biggest concerns about the current "stallion du jour" philosophy is that it inevitably leads to a small number of stallions getting massive numbers of mares and therefore over-representation of those genes within the pool and inevitably reducing the available gene pool at a much faster rate than ever occurred in the past.

I don't believe that the most popular stallions are necessarily the best ones. Marketing has a lot to do with popularity if your clientelle are not in a position to be able to view the stallion and his offspring. Because it takes so long for a stallion to prove his worth as a sire many top producers have been dead and gone or at least very old before their value is recognised. Stallions that fall into this category are Lungau, Silvermoon, Van Deyk and Beltain. There are many more. An interesting fact to think about is that despite Paul Schockemohle breeding almost 1000 foals a year his studfarm has not bred many outstanding sportshorses or stallions.

I think that if you go with the "stallion du jour" because there are going to be so many of that stallion's offspring to choose from the following year if you happen to get an average offspring rather than a much rarer outstanding offspring (by definition there are far more foals that will be average than outstanding. Less than 1% will fall into the outstanding category) the value of the average offspring will be depressed because of the easily available direct comparison to the shining star. This was borne out last year in the prices of Quaterback babies. One or two went for megabucks in the German auctions. The rest went for slightly below average prices. If you chose a much less popular stallion you may only get an average offspring but because there will not be a shining star standing 10 feet away the quality of your foal will be assessed on their own merits giving you a better chance of selling the foal for their actual worth. When your foal is one of 500 even an good foal will fade in comparison with the megastar and the buyer has got far more foals to choose from so has more leverage to negotiate on price.

In the UK for a few years we had the British Horse Database (BHD) which not only showed stallions' offspring it also gave statistics on how many of that stallion's offspring were competing and at which level. It then gave awards to stallions based on their offsprings' achievements and which stallions were most likely to produce a successful sportshorse. The stallion who came top in eventing was one that no one had ever heard of yet he had a 50% foals to advanced eventer rate. Since training is such a big part of competition success for an unknown stallion to be in this position was astonishing. Big name breeders weren't using him because he was unknown, big name riders were not searching out his offspring because he was unknown. This is the data I want to know! Sadly the BHD went out of business and there isn't access to this data any more. What a tragic shame!

Most professional riders, when asked about bloodlines, will tell you that they don't care what the breeding of the horse is. They judge the horse in front of them (which is probably how the unknown eventing stallion came to be top of the rankings). I have a strong suspicion that the riders pay little attention to the bloodlines because of the arguments outlined above. Good horses and often the best horses can come from little known bloodlines. Famous sires may have a lower chance (statistically) of siring a competition horse than a lesser known sire.

So, what are your opinions on choosing a stallion?

[Altamont Sport Horses]

While I have bred to stallions I have never seen in person I do the best I can to evaluate them from a distance using conformation photos and video footage under saddle and at liberty. I look at their dam and sire to see what went into that stallion so to speak. And I also look at the stallion's offspring to see if they pass on their characteristics. Of course their success under saddle at a level appropriate for their age and training is very important as well. I do appreciate the opportunity to meet the stallions in person and certainly meeting them in person increases the likelihood that I will seriously considering a breeding to them in the future. There are some stallions that I have not considered but after seeing them in person thought "I really should keep this guy in mind for mare X."

I do not breed to the du jour stallions because each stallion must be chosen for each mare individually. I am much less impressed with the number of foals a stallion has on the ground than I am in what he has actually produced in his foals going so far as to look at the foal's dam and her parents whenever possible. And if the offspring are going under saddle I look to see how they are doing in competition. I also look at how they are scoring in their inspections and in-hand classes.

There aren't any local stallions for me to choose from. With good stallions being located all over the U.S. it is hard and expensive to see all those that seem to have potential. Limiting myself to only those that are nearby enough for viewing in person would certainly concentrate my bloodlines more than I like.

I will say though that you can sometimes learn quite a bit about a stallion from other breeders you respect who have seen him and/or his offspring in person. For this reason my fellow breeders are a valuable resource when considering a stallion that I have not had the opportunity to see in person.

[camohn]

Probably half the time I have used local stallions/half not. For not: factors that go into consideration are if the SO has a rep for being good to deal with, how many days a week they ship (I don't care how good the stallion is I will NOT bred to a stallion that only ships M/W/F), if the stallion has foals on the ground to see what he does throw, and asking other folks that know either him or his immediate family.

[Dalriada]

We've used 3 stallions that we have not seen in person and have not been disappointed in the results, in fact we have been very pleased.

The first stallion, while he normally stood in Ontario at the time we were breeding he was in Florida competing. Since he has returned home we haven't ever made the 2 hour haul to see him. His performance record and inspection scores told us what we needed to know to match him with the right mare. However due to a semen fertility issue his offspring and few and far between, so seeing others was a bit impossible. Our green-broke youngster by this stallion is very promising.

The other 2 stallions were in California at the time we were breeding (one now resides in WA-state). One had an inspection score that assisted us in making the decision - we have 2 foals on the ground by this stallion and a third due in May.

The other CA stallion was selected mainly on bloodlines for a "rare" breed cross. We got a matched pair of fillies that certainly were an excellent result. Yep, I bred back after seeing foal #1, actually I took a chance and purchased the stud service in an auction prior to my mare foaling.

In all cases the stallion owners and the collection stations have been excellent to work with. But then we've always had our ducks in a row on this end as well - unbred mare cycled, kept stallion owner in loop from the moment pregnant mare foals, to ultra-sounds, to preg checks and foaling. Follow ups with registrations, forms, payments, fast return of equitaners, etc.

[pinecone]

I will use a stallion I have not seen in person.

I look at the performance record (show results are beneficial in three ways, they establish trainability (is he at a reasonable level for his age), they establish that he's sane enough to go out in public, and they give a judge's unbiased assessment.)

I also look that he's Approved (that tells me that he has been deemed worthy of breeding by people who should know as much or more than I do, so if I can't see him in person, some other expert has...)

And I look at bloodlines, photos, video, offspring (if available, although I'm one who will gamble a bit with a younger stallion), and I'll sometimes discuss the stallion with friends who are also breeders.

The beauty of AI is that we are not limited to local stallions, but it would be quite an expensive undertaking to fly around looking at each stallion personally. I'll also add, every stallion I've seen in person I liked better than I'd liked him from photos and video. In my experience, photos and video don't do horses justice.

[Donella]

Well, it would be lovely if we could see all of the stallions that we wanted to use, but that is pretty difficult. My mom and I went on a stallion viewing trip to Germany this year to do just that and saw ALOT of stallions. Weirdly enough, the three we are using this year are ones that I never saw.

On the other hand, we bred to Sir Donnerhall last year, one you might call "du jour" but you know, he was nothing short of spectacular in person. I am so glad we used him and now that his offspring are of liscencing age, he is again proving himself well.

I do not breed to the du jour stallions because each stallion must be chosen for each mare individually.

How does this have anything to do with choosing a stallion for each mare individually?. This goes regardless of if the stallion is popular or not. Even if using a popular stallion, most breeders still make sure that they have a mare that appears to be a suitable match, though I realize this is judged more on phenotype/genotype and young horse performance scores vs offspring results at this point.

I don't know. I think there is a happy medium. If you feel you have the right mare for a popular stallion and you like him, then go for it. Believe it or not, they are usually popular for a reason, ie they are the liscencing champion or bundachampion and appear far above average and do represent the breeds improvement! But yeah, there are so many awesome boys out there who are far undervalued and used and thats too bad, but for those of us on this side of the pond, it is pretty hard to know who those stallions are because often their owners do nothing to promote them and you have nothing to judge them by. When using frozen, we need to see something, a video, #'s ect. If we can't get to see that, what ARE we supposed to use?

Also, there are stallions I believe fall in both catagories. Not under appreciated, but those that are very popular AND proven...ie Don Frederico, Londonderry, Belissimo. What do we say of using these kinda guys?

[FriesianX]

An article like that might have made sense 15 years ago, but now? Most (not all, but a large majority) of breeders use shipped semen, even shipped from overseas! With the advent of chilled and frozen semen, better knowledge about extenders, increased ultrasound technology, increased understanding about reproductive hormones and timing, there is NO reason to limit yourself to a stallion you can actually go visit. And there is no reason to stress your mare by hauling her around to stallion facilities!

That is one wonder of the internet - you can ask OTHERS who live in other countries or across the country what they think of a stallion since you'll never see that horse in person.

Many people live in areas where there are FEW or NO quality stallions - should they then NOT breed? Or breed to a stallion that isn't as good quality?

As for the comment about no semen on Sunday - even if you take your mare to the stallion's facility, MOST breeding sheds close at least one day/week for live cover and AI. Many operate on a MWF schedule - whether shipping or covering! Most semen will live in a mare long enough so if you inseminate on Saturday, you are fine. And most ship 2 doses, so you have a dose for Sunday too. Many of the larger stallion owners ship 3 days/week, and the mares have great conception rates. I've had the vet look at my boy's semen 3 and 4 days out (then inseminated a mare with it with resulting pregnancy), and it is still happily progressively motile - so I don't buy the argument that you can't order semen for Sunday so you lose that time window.

Yes, I have bred to stallions on the other side of the U.S. - all I've seen is video clips and photos. While it would be great to breed locally, before I had my own stallion, there was no one locally that had what I wanted! Now, I ended up buying a stallion I knew and had known for years - it totally influenced my decision to own a stallion, but... I still use an ocassional outside stallion who I've never met.

I fully agree with some of your comments about the "stallion flavor of the day", and even more, your comments about most RIDERS and trainers don't pay a lot of attention to bloodlines! Most competitors know the sire of their horse, and not much more. Some don't even know that much.

And breeding to the new, fancy flavor of the day skews the numbers, for sure! So HotBoyI turned out 20 top premium foals after his first year breeding - what we ignore is HotBoyI had 1000 breedings, so that is actually only a 2% premium rate. Tried&True had 20 breedings, only 4 premium foals, but is actually at a 20% premium rate with those numbers. Who are we more impressed with?

Generally, if I try a stallion I've never met, and I'm happy with the results, I repeat the breeding. And, even though I don't know the stallion, I know their bloodlines. In many cases, I've at least seen video of the offspring too - or seen their actual offspring at inspections.

[not again]

Since we ride our homebreds I go to great lengths to see any potential stallions we might use in our breeding program. Feet are all important to us so that is where I start in my evaluation, not the head. Feet are very hard to study long distance, as are straight limbs and actual size. A plane ticket to anywhere is cheaper than a year of food for a foal: if the foal is faulty, it could be on the feed bill for a lot longer than a year.

[siegi b.]

As a breeder in the US I could not afford to only breed to stallions I can see in person. Since I pretty much stick to Dutch stallions with the occasional "stallion du jour" thrown in, I can study foal reports for horses located in Europe and get a good idea of what they produce. I also know what my mares produce and so it becomes less and less of a gamble.

As Donella said, "stallions du jour" typically have a reason to be so popular, and while I don't go out of my way to always breed to them, the market place in the US dictates that some offspring of those popular boys be available for purchase. I think it would be downright silly to just avoid these stallions because they are popular, when in fact, their babies are going to sell better than the ones from not so well-known studs.

The stallions I pick for my girls have to bring something to the table and sometimes that's one of the older boys or one of the younger ones. I only look at stallions as the icing on the cake because I will always be happy if I just get a copy of my mare.

If I had to limit my breedings to stallions that I can see and touch, I would have probably left the breeding business a long time ago due to lack of choice and extreme boredom.

Just my opinion....

[bloomingtonfarm]

Most professional riders, when asked about bloodlines, will tell you that they don't care what the breeding of the horse is. They judge the horse in front of them (which is probably how the unknown eventing stallion came to be top of the rankings). I have a strong suspicion that the riders pay little attention to the bloodlines because of the arguments outlined above. Good horses and often the best horses can come from little known bloodlines. Famous sires may have a lower chance (statistically) of siring a competition horse than a lesser known sire.




Normal, this is how the market goes. Let’s say you have a shop which produces T-shirts.; you start by selecting the basic material for you specific market.

If you want to reach the Youth market, choose a brand and material that is cool, a brand that youth will be proud to wear. The look and the prestige is what matters.

If you want to sell to the professional, your goal will be to select material that will enable the athlete to be more comfortable and that will give an edge on performance. The look does not matter, only the end result: winning.

An amateur is proud to say that his horse is from such and such registry, is branded, or he is from this famous stallion. He has to have the right color, a cute face, and be friendly.



The breeder has no choice, he has to find the best ‘material or brand’ to sell to his target market. And the materials are: the bloodline, the performance of the dam and the sire, their look, their strength and weakness, and the most important, the achievement of their offspring if old enough.

As a breeder of Dutch Sport Horse living in Canada, it is not easy to see the stallions and their offspring on a regular basis as Dutch people have the chance to, so I have to rely on the expertise and knowledge of the one who have this opportunity. There are professional out there in Holland who see and judge hundreds and hundreds of offspring all year long. They give us their opinion on the stallion’s offspring with the help of the linear scoring and index. I found the use of these data crucial BUT this is just like buying the thread for my T-Shirt. You let some expert explain you why the quality of this fiber is the best you can buy, you shop around and you compare.

This is only the first step… quite a long road before your t-shirt ended up on the shoulders of the Olympics athletes or on the cool kid on the block!

[Daventry]

An article like that might have made sense 15 years ago, but now?

Agreed! :lol:

Seems like it was almost done to promote breeding locally. Not all of us can do that...maybe we have no stallions in our area, maybe all of the stallions in our area blow goats, maybe the stallion owners are difficult to work with, or don't suit our mares, maybe they are not being promoted as we'd like them to be, or maybe their offspring are terrible or they are throwing some weird or undesirable trait.

When we were breeding warmbloods, only twice was I able to view the stallion in person. Once because we happen to have bred locally to a wonderful stallion that was then quickly sold to the US. The second time was when we bred to Rio Grande. Eric Lamaze happened to have him at Spruce Meadows, which is just a short drive for us. He graciously took his time to show him to us on competition day, went into his stall, watched him trot out, etc. But, if I had to do this for each stallion, I'd go broke!! Or as a breeder, should I say, err, even more broke! :lol:

Over the years, we bred to wonderful stallions like Riverman from Hilltop, stallions from Marefield Meadows, W. Charlot, etc., etc. Way back then, I got lambasted by the local Stallion Owners that I wasn't supporting them. If they had "the stallion" I wanted to breed to, I would have bred locally. They didn't, so I had to look elsewhere.

In the end, a foal costs the same to raise, feed, train, etc. as the next one - doesn't matter if it's a crappy foal or a stellar foal. So, for that reason, why wouldn't I want to breed to the absolute best stallion for my mare?

Like others have said, the internet has made it easy to "view" a stallion without actually having to see them in person. Online videos, conformation shots, talking to other breeders, viewing foals across the country. And what about those Mare Owners that just don't have the knowledge to evaluate a nice horse? You're expecting them to travel and assess a stallions conformation, movement and type when they don't have the knowledge of what any of those things are or can't even seem to do it with their own mares. So, what then is the point of traveling?

In a perfect world, we'd all live in Germany and could breed locally. Do I even have to explain why? :yes:

[VirginiaBred]

I am one that doesn't have to see the stallion in person. A picture is fine and obviously knowing the breeder and their knowledge makes it even easier.

I always go by pedigree, period. Going by the pedigree ensures performance, way of moving, disposition and conformation. It's a no brainer. Sure you'll get the occasional quirk, but it's rare, and a chance I'll gladly take.

[Amoroso]

With the availability of video and photos over the net, I've found it quite easy to select from suitable stallions that I've not seen in person. In order for me to match my mare with the best possible stallion, I need to shop outside my viable go to see in person range. For 2010, I've decided to breed to one stallion that lives oddly about 20 minutes from our farm. However, this breeding had nothing to do with his locality. He is simply the right stallion for our mare, and it is a bonus that I was able to see him in person.

Interesting observation about the Schockemohle program, although I do believe that it just reaffirms what a small percentage of even top quality foals make it to the international level.

[EquusMagnificus]

I used photos and videos. I am just a small breeder and it would make sense economically to visit the thousdands of stallions I am considering, even the dozens that make it to my video collection (which equates to my short list)!

Photos (especially a good conformation shot), videos (even a free jumping one for dressage horses), inspection scores, show records, offspring, references from the community and of course, my gut feeling are my tools.

I do go to all the inspections I can to see young horses in the flesh and I am lucky to have access to inspections from practically all the major registries within a reasonnable driving distance.

[Dressage_Diva333]

I have no problem using a stallion that I havn't seen in person. Like others that have posted above, I evaluate the stallion in a video, conformation shots, pedigree, and offspring. I will not breed a "tricky" mare to a M/W/F collection schedule stallion, but havn't had an issue with mares that are "easy", because it's pretty easy to make them ovulate earlier if need be.

Now it just so happens that I've met all but one of the stallions I've bred to, and my friends had seen that one stallion and said he was quite nice (basically out of coincidence more than anything else, I didn't just choose those stallions because I had somebody that I trust see the one, and I've met the others). It would really be impossible to travel to see all the stallions I hope to use in the future. I just met one of the stallions I bred to last year, a couple weeks ago, he is everything portrayed in his pictures/video, and more. I was very impressed!

I do see in my area a large use of local stallions, granted, we have some very nice stallions in this area, but going to an inspection you can almost count on there being 2 or more foals by a couple stallions that are very popular. Yes, we're lucky to have some exceptional stallions in the area, but sometimes I wish there was more of a variety of bloodlines, rather than those seen over and over again. I don't really understand the reasoning of people that only breed to horses within a certain area of them, unless, say, they have a difficult mare to breed, and need very quick access to the semen. Shipping does get a little pricey, but thats one of the lowest costs associated with breeding!

I try to make the effort to see as many stallions as I can, not only to see the stallions, but to talk to the breeders/owners as well.

And to a point made in the OP, about breeding to a popular stallion then maybe not getting the shining star foal. I agree, and disagree. Yes, if there is a large selection of foals by the stallion your foal is by, and maybe yours is just average, your probably going to have a bit of a harder time selling it. At the other end of the spectrum though, is breeding to a rather unknown stallion. If you are planning to sell the foal, how marketable would the foal be if it's by a stallion that very few people had heard of? I would like to think that most people make bloodlines a high priority when purchasing youngsters that havn't finished growing to show what their truely going to be yet.

[Farrier's Daughter]

There are some obvious advantages to seeing the stallion in person. I have seen stallions who are lovely in a video, but in person I was not impressed. Also, temperament isn't revealed in photos. On the other hand, I have seen stallions who were not presented well in their videos who are impressive in person.

Whether you see a stallion in the flesh, seeing his get is also very helpful. That being said, we have bred to stallions very early in their breeding careers before they had an established foal crop, and we've been pleased with the results.

One of the things I appreciate most about warmblood breeding versus breeding thoroughbreds is that I can now breed to any stallion worldwide. Why limit myself? I am very pleased with the foals I had this past year when I used frozen semen from a stallion from Europe. I have not seen him in person; however, his get and track record are well established, and I already have other horses with the same bloodlines, so I wanted a similar temperament and conformation. My foals are everything I expected them to be, so I am not disappointed.

[goodmorning]

I appreciate the aspect of the WOW-factor that you can not get through a video or photo. There is something to special about that perfect stallion. Not that this is needed, but it sure is nice. Some are really disappointing in person.

[stolensilver]

Having read the replies on this thread I think a lot of you have more faith in the absolute integrity of stallion owners than I do! I'm not saying that stallion owners are dishonest but if you have a stallion with (for example) a slightly twisted right front leg you are not going to take a photograph that shows this and post it on your website for potential clients to see too, are you? If your stallion has had a lot of offspring go lame with suspensory damage at an early age are you going to put that on your website? Standing a stallion costs money and stallion owners love their stallions. They are going to make their boy look as good as they possibly can. The two theoretical examples given are extreme but it IS close on impossible to accurately assess conformation from photographs and videos. And no photos ever show feet! It is very difficult to truly assess a horse from their photo. The sheer size of the horse doesn't come across or the personality.

I also think the inspectors are only human. There are many times when they have slated a new stallion and written off his foals as being sub-standard only for that stallion to come roaring back when those sub-standard foals have grown up, showed their trainability and soundness and gone to the top of their sport. The classic example of this is Doruto, now long deceased and still the most important dam-sire blood in the KWPN. If you look at the list of their top 100 broodmares the overwhelming majority of them carry Doruto blood.

I also think there is an undercurrent belief in some of these posts that the popular stallions are better than the less popular ones. I don't think this is necessarily true. A stallion who has won the Bundeschampionat has shown that he has significant talent at a particular discipline but he has not proved at all that he will pass on those attributes or that he has the mental toughness and soundness to go the rest of the way up the ladder to GP. A good showing at the B'Champs is not necessarily saying that the stallion has the sort of temperament that most riders can cope with. It does mean his professional rider with as much time as it takes to calm him down before getting on has done a very good job of producing him. One of my biggest concerns about using a young stallion I haven't seen is how do you assess temperament and how do you assess soundness?

In all the replies it appears that only one breeder who also rides the horses they breed has posted. It is interesting that they insist on seeing a stallion before using it because of their interest in the quality of the stallion's feet.

Another example of being careful about just looking at statistics is the stallion Jazz. He is the number one most successful producer of dressage horses in the WBFSH rankings. The new superstar Parzival is a Jazz baby as is Equis Nadine. He's produced many, many Olympic horses. And he has a deserved reputation for tending to throw very hot, spooky, difficult horses. Most riders who are not professionals cannot cope with a young Jazz horse. He is one of the few stallions that most riders have heard of, and warn their pupils away from!

Out of interest how many people have bred a horse that got to FEI levels in dressage/eventing/showjumping? How was that horse bred? Did outstanding athleticism get them to the upper levels or was it their trainability and soundness that took them through the levels? Or something else altogether?

[siegi b.]

stolensilver - I read your arguments FOR seeing the stallion before you breed to him and I think that you should do so since that is what you believe in.

I have a different opinion, one that says I don't need to see the stallion up close and personal, and so far I've done well with that.

You mention Jazz as a stallion that one shouldn't breed to because he produces super hot, spooky, etc. etc. Now, Jazz happens to be a stallion that I've met in person and when I did he was as well behaved as anybody, so I wouldn't have had a clue that he will pass on all those crazy traits you mention. By the way, I have bred to Jazz and will do so again this year because I happen to believe that he produces incredible talent. So what if there's an occasional spook? How can anybody discount the many, many successful offspring he has that are doing extremely well in the sport? He truly is the stallion of the century!

Doruto was a Trakehner stallion that went to Holland after he was approved in Germany. And yes, his first foal crop was not impressive, but it didn't take the Dutch very long to figure out that he gave his kids the rideability and desire to do well, hence those many mares in the top 100 in Holland that have Doruto in their lines. I have one, too..... :-)

Just my opinion.....

[not again]

Since riding is the goal of our breeding program I will mention a few successful homebreds. Please keep in mind that after 40 plus years we are looking at both predictability and long term upper level rideability. Heart, for us, is more important than Wow. Courage and sense top the list along with trainability and athleticism.
Okay: Able Spirit spent ten years at FEI dressage, young riders through grand prix. She retired sound at 17 then produced two premium daughters and a licensed son. He is showing on the "A" circuit very successfully. Volante evented through preliminary three day and has a daughter competing in eventing in Aiken right now. Full siblings Apparition and Altair were top FEI dressage and event horses, and their full sibling Hurry Home Jupe was a top hunter.
The best advice I received as a young breeder was to start with older sound successful horses, upping the odds of producing sound successful horses. A famous vet also noted that long term soundness is in direct correlation to the quality of the cartilage. Now with all the fuss about OCD his words are even more important.
Back to feet. underslung heels, weak bars, mule feet, crooked pasterns are easy to hide in long grass and on video, but they are hard to deal with when the foal starts under saddle.

[Sacha]

I dont know where my reply just vanished too but I'll try again

I try and see every stallion I breed to in the flesh. Havig had to strike a few well known stallions of my list due to limb conformation issues or 'quirky' temperaments , I know how important it is. Lukcily I am in England so can get to Germany twice a year.

I like to watch the licensing, the stallion shows and visit them at home if possible. All helps to build up a detailed picture of different stallions and different bloodlines. I also try and watch sites like clipmyhorse to stallions in competition.
I have to ride anything we dont sell any weaning, and any fillies that I retina, I have to know I am totally happy with the bloodline

[Daventry]

In all the replies it appears that only one breeder who also rides the horses they breed has posted. It is interesting that they insist on seeing a stallion before using it because of their interest in the quality of the stallion's feet.


How can you just assume that? I've started all of my babies under saddle myself! I also have a HUGE foot fetish. I don't think it is too much to ask a Stallion Owner to email a few photos of their stallions' feet, if that is something that is really important to a Mare Owner.

[stolensilver]

Daventry I haven't assumed that. I've said that from what people have posted it appears that only one rides their homebreds. If you re-read the posts I think you'll find the same thing.

It is true that breeders in general are not competitive riders. People like Emma Hindle are very rare. And it seems to me that the things that breeders look for are not the same things that riders look for. But that is just my opinion. This whole thread is to try to find out what other people's opinions are.

[FriesianX]

How can you just assume that? I've started all of my babies under saddle myself! I also have a HUGE foot fetish. I don't think it is too much to ask a Stallion Owner to email a few photos of their stallions' feet, if that is something that is really important to a Mare Owner.


OK, that is WAY too personal, we don't need to know about your fetishes:D

In all seriousness, I also ride my own horses, I'm an adult ammie, and I also show my own stallion (although my trainer also shows him, and I'll even admit she makes him look a heck of a lot better than I can :lol:). I think several breeders here ride and show as well as breed, so not sure where that comment came from! If I had to guess (hmmm, this could be an interesting poll), I'd guess at least a third of the breeders also show - and I'm talking about under saddle, not halter/in hand/sport horse stuff.