Stallion size considerations when breeding pony mares

[myhorsehannah]

I have an 11.2 pony mare that I would like to breed to get a foal that will mature around 13 -13.2h. She is a maiden 6 yr old. I would like to breed her to a Welsh B but most are not over 13 h. There are many nice GRPs between 14-15 h, but I don't want to put the mare at risk. Does anyone know where I can find the famous draft stallion to pony mare study in print? It is often quoted as a reason not to be concerned with size but I would like to see the data for myself.

Breeders, what is your actual experience with foaling complications in small mares bred to larger stallions? What is the upper limit I should consider?

[Sugarbrook]

What is the breeding on your pony mare?

IMHO I do not think you will get a medium, even if you breed to a top of the line medium. Nor do i think you will get a medium if bred to a large.

[Dressage_Diva333]

I've had one experiance of breeding a larger stallion to a smaller mare. Stallion was 16.3 hands, and a big boy. Very big bones, and just an overall large horse. Mare was a 15.1 hand maiden, very narrow.

Foal was born at 320 days (and honestly, if it would have been any later, I don't think we could have gotten the foal out), very difficult/vet assisted delivery using chains. First the presented with only one foot, so that was corrected, then there was the task of getting her out. After much effort, and an extremly exhausted mare, we succeeded. Mare didn't pass the placenta for about 6 hours, even with Oxytocin treatment, then she ended up retaining a piece.

I don't think we would have either the mare or foal if we were not there. Ended up flushing the mare several times, and putting her on anti-biotics, and it worked out okay. She caught the next year on the first insemination, and is due to foal any day. This time she's bred to an 11.3 hand stallion.

I would never breed such a size difference again, I know that many times people breed large stallions to mares and it ends up okay, but I just will not risk it again.

[myhorsehannah]

She is a Welsh Section A type but unregistered so I do not have her pedigree. There is a 15.1 h stallion that looks nice, Champion's Devito, but there's the question of safety.

Anyone out there have experience breeding tall stallions to small pony mares?

[myhorsehannah]

I've had one experiance of breeding a larger stallion to a smaller mare. Stallion was 16.3 hands, and a big boy. Very big bones, and just an overall large horse. Mare was a 15.1 hand maiden, very narrow.

Foal was born at 320 days (and honestly, if it would have been any later, I don't think we could have gotten the foal out), very difficult/vet assisted delivery using chains. First the presented with only one foot, so that was corrected, then there was the task of getting her out. After much effort, and an extremly exhausted mare, we succeeded. Mare didn't pass the placenta for about 6 hours, even with Oxytocin treatment, then she ended up retaining a piece.

I don't think we would have either the mare or foal if we were not there. Ended up flushing the mare several times, and putting her on anti-biotics, and it worked out okay. She caught the next year on the first insemination, and is due to foal any day. This time she's bred to an 11.3 hand stallion.

I would never breed such a size difference again, I know that many times people breed large stallions to mares and it ends up okay, but I just will not risk it again.

Thank you for that input, it does give me pause for thought

[ise@ssl]

The only Welsh B mare we bred to a GRP was a mare who is about 12.3 and she had already had about 8 foals. Given the size of your mare I wouldn't breed her to any larger than 13H (and a pedigree of nothing over that). A very nice Welsh B you could consider is Wynnbrook Starburst. He's a medium and I believe is pedigree is all mediums.

[VirginiaBred]

She is a Welsh Section A type but unregistered so I do not have her pedigree. There is a 15.1 h stallion that looks nice, Champion's Devito, but there's the question of safety.

Anyone out there have experience breeding tall stallions to small pony mares?


No one does it because is extremely dangerous. You never want to put your mare in jeopardy, and that sure will. If you have your heart set on having a foal from your mare, you need to stick to a small pony or a section A welsh. Your mare is very tiny and you may want to consider another, larger mare as a broodmare.

[quicksilverponies]

Since your mare is a maiden, chances are her first foal will not be as big as later foals might be. I would probably try for a top of the line small for her first foal and then breed her to something larger later on. To get a top of the line small with an 11.2hh mare, you would probably need to breed her to a Sec. B of at least 13.1hh if possible. A larger Sec. B you might consider at some point is Maranatha Tapestry by GlanNant Mariner. He has been standing at Helicon Sport Ponies this year on a lease - not sure where he will be next year. He tends to throw big babies with really nice hunter movement. He is 13.3hh. I have a coming 3 yr old Sec. B gelding by him that is 14.1 and his dam was just 13hh. Both sire and dam have some larger genetics in their pedigrees. Good luck with your choice!

[Dunamis]

You could always do an embryo transfer if you were set on breeding to a bit larger stallion:)

[VirginiaBred]

You could always do an embryo transfer if you were set on breeding to a bit larger stallion:)

Agreed.

[myhorsehannah]

Well, it seems the best I can hope for is to get top-of-the-line small. How is the market for quality half-welsh small ponies? Sounds like I need to pick around a 13h Sec B.

Thanks so much for the valuable input

[rideagoldenpony]

Welcome to COTH, Diane!!! :)

[4M Perennial Farm]

I don't have the pony embyro into draft mare, draft embryo into pony mare experiment, but there is a three part series on an experiment using thoroughbred embryos into pony mares and pony embryos into thoroughbred mares. They are:

Influence of maternal size on placental, fetal and postnatal growth in the horse. I. Development in utero (http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/reprint/123/3/445?ijkey=8cc6181f48c49a3baa9c00121bb1d38da82afad9 )

The influence of maternal size on placental, fetal and postnatal growth in the horse. II. Endocrinology of pregnancy (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/172/2/237?ijkey=946d69a61c70dbfed244acb81a81350218d58d72 )

The influence of maternal size on pre- and postnatal growth in the horse: III Postnatal growth (http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/reprint/127/1/67)

[myhorsehannah]

I don't have the pony embyro into draft mare, draft embryo into pony mare experiment, but there is a three part series on an experiment using thoroughbred embryos into pony mares and pony embryos into thoroughbred mares. They are:

Influence of maternal size on placental, fetal and postnatal growth in the horse. I. Development in utero (http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/reprint/123/3/445?ijkey=8cc6181f48c49a3baa9c00121bb1d38da82afad9 )

The influence of maternal size on placental, fetal and postnatal growth in the horse. II. Endocrinology of pregnancy (http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/172/2/237?ijkey=946d69a61c70dbfed244acb81a81350218d58d72 )

The influence of maternal size on pre- and postnatal growth in the horse: III Postnatal growth (http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/reprint/127/1/67)


Thanks so much for the links to these papers...just what I was looking for.

[Windswept Stable]

I would never breed such a tiny mare to a big horse --regardless of what any old study says. Listen to the folks here that have been breeding and have witnessed and seen disaster. Things can go wrong even when sizes are similiar--why take an extra chance.

However, I would disagree with using a small size pony if you want something to sell. I would stick to a large size pony, but avoid anything with 50% horse genetics. The other part of the equation in small ponies is a quiet personality. Small ponies can be the hardest to sell because every mother wants one for their kid that has been there/done that already. I I also had a tiny mare 11.3 -- her third pregnancy -- I used a small pony (Blue Rain) crossbred and ended up with a pony that we call Itty Bitty because she was born 30 pounds and 6 hands high. She is now approaching 2 years old and is all of 10.2. What am I going to do with it? She's adorable and I love her..but not very marketable.My daughter rolled her eyes at me when I told her she could break her this summer. I breed hunters and anything much under 12.2 is not of much value as a show pony. Here's the dam -
Scroll down to Little Bo Peep
http://www.empirespower.com/sold.htm
Here's the baby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6Zzb17pTA

However, her first & second pregnancy-- I bred her to my stallion -Empire's Power(Before I owned him) -- First pregnancy was lost at term with a red bag birth And the 2nd pregnancy resulted in an adorable small pony which should finish as a top of stick small ---
Here she is with her new owners in training:


http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2358441770084673271mwbooK

[myhorsehannah]

I would never breed such a tiny mare to a big horse --regardless of what any old study says. Listen to the folks here that have been breeding and have witnessed and seen disaster. Things can go wrong even when sizes are similiar--why take an extra chance.

However, I would disagree with using a small size pony if you want something to sell. I would stick to a large size pony, but avoid anything with 50% horse genetics. The other part of the equation in small ponies is a quiet personality. Small ponies can be the hardest to sell because every mother wants one for their kid that has been there/done that already. I I also had a tiny mare 11.3 -- her third pregnancy -- I used a small pony (Blue Rain) crossbred and ended up with a pony that we call Itty Bitty because she was born 30 pounds and 6 hands high. She is now approaching 2 years old and is all of 10.2. What am I going to do with it? She's adorable and I love her..but not very marketable.My daughter rolled her eyes at me when I told her she could break her this summer. I breed hunters and anything much under 12.2 is not of much value as a show pony. Here's the dam -
Scroll down to Little Bo Peep
http://www.empirespower.com/sold.htm
Here's the baby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ6Zzb17pTA

However, her first & second pregnancy-- I bred her to my stallion -Empire's Power(Before I owned him) -- First pregnancy was lost at term with a red bag birth And the 2nd pregnancy resulted in an adorable small pony which should finish as a top of stick small ---
Here she is with her new owners in training:


http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2358441770084673271mwbooK

The study linked is recent (2002-2004) and very informative. I had not considered the risk beyond increased incidence of dystocia, there are negative implications for the foal as well due to the deprived uterine environment. I will stick to about 13 h for the stallion, or may not breed her at all based on what you say about small pony marketability. The mare has a stellar temperament, gentle, sweet, bombproof, really loves children.

Thanks for your advice and the photos.