Someone is interested in buying your youngster ... [Archive]

TrueColours

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:35 AM

Its January. You live in the "Great White North". The last "presentable" pictures were taken last September-ish when the youngsters still looked decent and reasonably slick, but here it is 5 months later, they have changed a lot - maturity wise - but they also look like the offspring of water buffalo's right now and that beautiful chiseled head is hidden under copious amounts of hair ...

A client of mine is ready to pull her hair out. We have some really cute pictures of the youngsters she is selling, when they were 2-4 months of age but we now have potential purchasers asking for updated pictures and she sent some to me last week and I said "Forget it! They look woolly as mammoth's, you cant even see their heads, you have NO idea of the conformation or bone structure or anything. Forget it totally - you will do more harm than good by sending those pictures out"

Reality also dictates that no potential client is going to sit around waiting until April to see new pictures of them either and there isnt a hope in Hell of selling them from these pictures

So - for those of you in the same position, how the heck do you handle these enquiries asking for updated pictures at this time of year when your youngsters look like crap, but you really would love the opportunity to sell them??? And clipping them and having them live under blankets for the rest of the winter would be a totally crazy thing to do as well ...

Pippin

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:42 AM

I would guess that a potential client would understand that this time of year will not be putting the best looking horse in a photo shoot.. Maybe they just want an idea at this stage of growth what the horse looks like?
Its a hard time of year for anything horse..

P~

railmom

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:45 AM

I had the same problem a few years ago and got some great advice here from a fellow COTHer...... Don't take ANY pictures you wouldn't want spashed all over the internet. 'Cause it will happen! Up north we all know the most beautiful foals look like Yaks right now, and if you don't want everyone to see photographic evidence of the water buffalo you are breeding don't send photos out. Send the beautiful foal pictures, and have them come in person if they are interested.

Iron Horse Farm

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:48 AM

I could have written this question! I am currently having the exact same problem. I have beautiful inspection photos taken by a professional in the fall - why do you want to see the yak stage? REALLY - I'm not hiding anything by not sending you photos of them now - you are welcome to come see them in person!

Hillside H Ranch

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:54 AM

Well, in these cases I explain to the client what the issue is. But, I do go ahead and send pictures out after that explanation. However, I do go to quite a bit of effort to get them cleaned up before the photos. I vaccum them, so that they are super clean (even though they may be quite hairy). I go to the effort to either pull or otherwise shorten the mane. I will clip super long hair off the fetlocks if needed and I will trim the "goat" hairs off the chin/jowls which will allow you to see the head a *bit* better. By removing that small amount of hair you aren't compromising their cold weather protection, either. Then I polish the hooves and trim the end of the tail. You'd be suprised at how much these little changes can make a huge change.

Dalemma

Jan. 24, 2009, 11:58 AM

Well I would send the summer/fall pictures that show off the horse and then send along the current pictures that the interested buyer wants........I figure that if they are looking in the winter and want current pictures they shouldn't be shocked and should be able too see past the winter woolies.

Dalemma

Sugarbrook

Jan. 24, 2009, 12:30 PM

The majority of mine WOULD NOT have their pictures taken right now and sent ANYWHERE!! The look like buffalos.

TrueColours

Jan. 24, 2009, 12:34 PM

The majority of mine WOULD NOT have their pictures taken right now and sent ANYWHERE!! The look like buffalos.

Sugarbrook - REALLY??? And you live in FL???

Man - I thought they'd all be sleek as seals coming from your place! :lol:

ThreeDays

Jan. 24, 2009, 12:41 PM

Can any of your youngsters spend the night in a blanket? I good 1/2 day or more with a blanket on and the coat mats down pretty good! LOL!

Another good trick for getting winter photo sessions in is to get some digital video footage and steal snap shots from the action footage. At least then you can maybe sse the athleticism.

Just an idea. But I would think most horse people would know what fuzzy winter coats look like and be able to assess beyond the current coat as to whether or not it would be worth a trip to come and see in person.

sniplover

Jan. 24, 2009, 12:47 PM

My friend has a lovely filly here in FL as well, and she honestly looks like a water buffalo x grizzly bear with her winter coat. It's the thickest I've ever seen and literally an 1.25-1.5" long to boot! Her coming 2yo full brother is slick as a seal though (and was a woolly ox himself his first winter).

She's a lost cause as far as sales pictures are concerned and has been since mid-November. :sigh: All you can see are her tiny little ears :lol:

Equilibrium

Jan. 24, 2009, 12:55 PM

I agree with the poster who says clean them up as well as you can. You know, not standing in mud or covered in muck. My just turned yearlings are very woolly, but have really shiny healthy coats. So if brought and cleaned up, they wouldn't look too bad. But also include the fall glamour shots!

Terri

Dressage_Diva333

Jan. 24, 2009, 01:07 PM

If a prospective buyer asks for UTD pix/video, I get it. I appologize for the extreme amount of fur. I try to bathe them, pull manes, sometimes even braid. I just have to work with what I've got. I also sometimes pull them out in the morning, bathe them, let them dry then put a blanket on to lay the fur down :yes:

Most people looking this time of year can't honestly expect the quality photos of sleek youngsters, can they? I agree with sending the older pix when the baby was sleek, then sending some water buffalo current pix :lol:

Rhyadawn

Jan. 24, 2009, 01:46 PM

If they are horsepeople that live in the great white north they probably have a reasonable idea that they will not be seeing sleek coats. But I still wouldn't want photographic evidence around. Explain the situation, invite them to visit, see how serious they are about making the drive and have the youngsters as cleaned up as can be (manes pulled, and mud off legs)

earlybird

Jan. 24, 2009, 01:47 PM

TrueColours -I feel your pain! And today is freezing!(Our farm is located just outside of Guelph)

erinwillow

Jan. 24, 2009, 01:49 PM

I"m not sure about this one. . .sticky topic. . that being said I believe that as breeders or sellers we should really be honest about our stock, if they're hairy, they're hairy. . so what?? Honestly, if hair is a deciding factor on whether or not a purchase comes or goes I rather pass--any potential owner for one of our ponies should be able to deal with hair, especially when temps have hit BELOW zero here. I know what you're saying about them looking horrible, but hey, that is what happens to horses in the winter. . you know what i'm saying?? It's kind of like, C'est la vie . . .

not again

Jan. 24, 2009, 01:58 PM

You could charge extra for the fur coat. Even PETA shouldn't complain about natural live fur! :lol:

TrueColours

Jan. 24, 2009, 01:59 PM

erinwillow - I agree 100% with what you are saying, but what if this comes down to a choice between a comparable youngster in AZ or CA or some warmer state wth a nice slick shiny coat, and your hairy beast up here where you are fighting a losing battle with the hair length and presentability issues? Who would YOU pick if you were the buyer?!

Its a really really tough call to know what to do, if you are trying to compete on equal footing with other breeders with their equally nice (but less hairy) youngsters for sale as well

And I will also agree 100% with Rhyadawn as well - never in a million years would I want photographic evidence floating around of anything in a less than presentable condition because it could very well come back to bite you in the ass down the road ...

earlybird - man today *IS* damned cold and blowy out there, isnt it?! :eek: And thankfully these arent my youngsters for sale - I am just trying to help a client out with hers ... :)

Anyone REALLY good at photoshopping mounds and mounds of hair off them, and photoshopping a sleek shiny body back ONTO them?! You'd make a killing out there if you could ... ;)

erinwillow

Jan. 24, 2009, 02:07 PM

Truecolors,

Believe me, I feel ya. . I've got pastures filled with buffalos at the moment, :lol::lol: Honestly, the best thing I can think to do is to offer the gorgeous foal shots and then offer the best, cleanest hairy shots. . .if the buyer chooses another foal based on the coat then somehow it just might be for the better. . it sucks, I know. . .the market is rough and we need to sell but for me I just try to be accurate hairy or otherwise. I donno, it might also be a personal preference issue. . as you've mentioned, some simply aren't comfortable with sharing "beastie" photos, if that is so then share the gorgeous foal ones and simply say to the buyer that he/she will have to wait until Spring for further, equally gorgeous (and maybe improved ;)) new photos. I think it's okay to do that too. For me? I just let it all hang out , lol!! Hair and fluff and snow. . . I'll probably get bitten in the A$$. . but. .c'est la vie. . .(can you tell I like that expression :winkgrin:) Good Luck!

City Ponies

Jan. 24, 2009, 02:42 PM

I actually found a great way to do this... or I got really really lucky!

I bought a long yearling in Dec, we didn't click for what I was looking for, ended up putting her back on the market in Feb as a 2 yr old.

I found that pulling the man, trimming the jowl & legs, clipping the bridle path about 1" - 1 1/2" longer than normal, we also clipped the excess under her belly, elbows, and knees (to define them - just a long cut not a body clip length) wrapping the dock of the tail, and a lot of elbow grease and show sheen will make them shine.. well the fuzzy's will shine in NJ winter!

The key was to shoot all the photos on the sunniest winter day possible. You know those days that are so clear they just refresh everything! She was a plain bay, so nothing to really stick out, but we put her against the backdrop on top of a hill with that perfectly clear blue sky behind her, the sun (and show sheen) dazzled her coat up nicely. And we shot the photos about a 1/8th shot (as opposed to a 1/4 angle shot), just enough that you could see where the shoulder angle was, how her neck tied into her chest. We also took some pictures of her side view, the light clippings of her belly/elbows really made her look more refine despite the fuzzyness. I think the real key was shooting a 30 second video of her free longing. Movement trumps fuzzys!!! A very controlled extended walk and trot attatched in the email will make buyers take a little more interest, a pleasant surprise when they think they are just getting woolie pics. - The filly ended up selling 2 weeks later to someone who saw the pics/video from 300 miles away.

It can happen! Worse comes to worse you will end up with some pictures on your computer that you can delete off the hard drive before anyone sees!!

Esprit

Jan. 24, 2009, 02:45 PM

I have a young colt for sale who is honestly absolutely LOVELY. But right now, even I have to hold the hair down on his face and under his jowels to reassure myself that his chiseled head is still there :eek: thankfully it is - waaaay under there... :D

But I have had inquiries for updated photos and I have told them flat out that I just can't. Looking at him head on, he's fine, but from the side to show his conformation, his hair is 1.5"!!! on his face and his body coat is even longer!

He is blanketed and I took it off the other day to let him romp around "naked" in the snow for a while and his hair is going in every direction possible. So...have I thought about clipping him, taking pictures and then outfitting him in a full hood, neck and winter blanket for the remainder of the season? Yep I sure have. Serious consideration, but I just can't. It's been brutally cold here.

I'm not in a panic to sell him and in another three months he will have started to shed out naturally and then perhaps I'll give him a body clip to speed it along...

Until then, no pictures... He'd never live it down, well I wouldn't anyway :rolleyes: :D

foxhavenfarm

Jan. 24, 2009, 03:20 PM

Sugarbrook - REALLY??? And you live in FL???

Man - I thought they'd all be sleek as seals coming from your place! :lol:

Believe me, even we Floridians have babies that look like wooly mammoth/yak crosses! :lol:

NoDQhere

Jan. 24, 2009, 03:50 PM

This is why we seldom try to sell babies/rising yearlings. Our foals are born in June and July so they never really get a chance to shed their baby hair before their first winter coat comes in. Right now they look so bad, I would like to hide them until May :lol:.

rideagoldenpony

Jan. 24, 2009, 04:03 PM

I just dealt with a similar scenario. Except here in the PNW, we have an over abundance of mud and yuck at this time of year.

I had someone inquire about a LOVELY colt -- one of the nicest ponies I've EVER bred, and will rival his sire (who for me is the greatest thing since sliced bread) in quality, movement, etc. They wanted updated pictures. I had fantastic foal photos and videos.

So.... We brought him in, rinsed off his legs, and stalled him overnight. The next day, when he was all dry and fluffy we pulled his blanket , gave him a thorough grooming and clipped his beard shorter (not completely OFF -- he does live outdoors!). I ended up getting some VERY nice photos of him! Yes, he IS furry (he's a baby PONY!!!). I was actually quite thrilled with how good he looked in the photos.

I then sent them off in an e-mail and pointed out the wonderful parts of his conformation, addressed his gawky growth stage and elaborated on what would change about him as he matures.

Never heard another word. :lol:

Am I sorry I sent them out? Absolutely not! This is a colt that I will happily keep and add to my show string, so no worries there. But the bottom line is that while many people will *say* they can look past winter hair -- many people are also not quite telling the truth!! :winkgrin:

Lesley Feakins

Jan. 24, 2009, 04:07 PM

I can so relate...all mine are like yaks...so so hairy.

I was thrilled to see the other day, when one of the hairy WB colts from 08 ran around and got a little warm. Consequently his hair got damp and flattened down and I was pleasantly suprised to see a pretty nice youngster under there!

Pulling manes, trimming the long hairs and if possible blanketing even for a couple of hours is all I can suggest. Good luck.

Sugarbrook

Jan. 24, 2009, 04:11 PM

To be TOTALLY honest here, I DID send a video out of one of the larges (2 yr old) that is for sale. Since he is 1/2 thoroughbred he didnt get the type coat that our small and medium little beasts get. I was ok with the way he looked. We trimmed his throat latch area, the big furry hairs on his legs, did his mane, and thats it. Prospective client loved the video so I am glad I did it. Now, the small who is starting under saddle is another story..........!!!!

And, yes, we have had cold weather. COLD. For us. We had nice green pastures and flowers blooming, and then 8 days of below freezing weather. Unheard of for us. Usually we get 2 (at the most) cold days and it warms up again. BURRRRRRR............But its warm here again.

tri

Jan. 24, 2009, 04:46 PM

imajacres

Jan. 24, 2009, 04:53 PM

ok here's one for you tc-. I have a mare left to sell from the estate, and I had someone interested, and they saw a picture of her and really liked her, then, knowing I own a 3 yr old out of her, they asked me to take a picture of that 3 yr old so they could get an idea of what she produces. Whatever, the estate needs to sell that mare, so off I trudge, two days ago, my filly in the field, hairy like an elk, try to take pictures, but realise soon enough not even I would buy a horse based on what I am getting, so I opt for little videos. Big movement in the snow, big strong canter, and a freeze frame of her trotting (dont know how I manage that).
The person declines to buy the original mare, because the filly is thick looking. ( she isnt, but yes she is equipped for Quebec winter)
( this is after they had seen photos of the mare who is anything but thick)
SO my feeling is, if you are so dumb, you dont even deserve the mare.
Oops, maybe I am cranky today?

Tiki

Jan. 24, 2009, 05:09 PM

I would think most horse people would know what fuzzy winter coats look like Ummmmm, no! Last spring my H/J trainer wanted me to bring down my rising 4yo filly whose pics she had seen on my website. She said she was beautiful and I had told her she was a nice hunter type, so she wanted me to bring her in for training. I told her she was in her full winter coat and I didn't want to bring her in until May. Oh no, she said, bring her down.

Well, her idea of a winter coat and mine differ quite a bit. She was shocked at how hairy she was. I reminded her that I had told her she was in her winter coat. No no no no no she said and pointed to several other horses in her barn. This horse has a winter coat, that horse has a winter coat, the horse over there has a winter coat. That's a horrible, shaggy coat, she said. Yuh, but my horses live out I said, your horses live in a barn with double coats and are worked every day and groomed to death.

She is a very, very good, professional horse person, a respected trainer, but she had NEVER seen the winter coats that we breeders deal with on our horses that live out in winter conditions.

If SHE couldn't understand or know about real winter coats, how do you expect buyers to see, or feel about, these yaksters???

TrueColours

Jan. 24, 2009, 05:39 PM

imajacres - EXACTLY!!!

Since these clients foals that are for sale are by my stallion, you betcha I dont want these horrid shaggy looking pictures being seen by ANYONE! :no:

And *I've* seen these youngsters in person last fall and loved them, and heck - I wouldnt have one iota of interest in them based on the pictures taken now either ...

Tiki - I hear ya ... There are definately *degrees* of winter coats ;) and if someone is dealing with a "1" out of 10 coat, they cannot even remotely envision what a "9" or "10" out of 10 coat look like ... :lol:

Curley07

Jan. 24, 2009, 07:11 PM

I agree with the tips already posted: blanket the day of the shoot, specialized trimming to leave the coat protection but defining the horse, extra bright sunny day, lots of snow in the picture (explains the coat, and looks nice). One of my barns lights are under timer (for open mares, stud and sale horses). I start sale horses under the lights in December... they look better than the unlighted horses, yet still have enough protection.

We are in Ontario too... so yes in the deep freeze. Our horses all come in at night (I think this helps somewhat). I have the nice show pics from last season, but when I'm marketing a horse to the US, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to want updated pics to show size and especially for my breed, cleaness of joints etc. They aren't going to fly up here based on just a summer pic and a refusal to send updated ones. Many are also sold sight unseen in this breed. You're either trying to sell the horse, or you're not.

People are looking for young halter prospects now and within the next few months in my breed... not in the summer. There is a huge change from foals to yearlings... I can't count on all my appendages the amount of stellar winning foals that went on to do nothing else past that year. I cater to the buyer, and would want the same in their situation (pictures).

If you don't want to put the extra effort in to at least see if you can get a decent pic, then perhaps one should reconsider and list them in the spring. It would personally make me very leery to have a seller refuse to send recent pictures... especially if there's distance involved in the transaction.

Thomas_1

Jan. 24, 2009, 07:19 PM

When I had the stud farm, if I was selling a youngster and I had a serious prospective buyer then I just sent updated photos.

The clients I dealt with all have enough common sense to know that horses have coats in the winter and can see through a bit of long hair.

tri

Jan. 24, 2009, 09:18 PM

If you don't want to put the extra effort in to at least see if you can get a decent pic, then perhaps one should reconsider and list them in the spring. It would personally make me very leery to have a seller refuse to send recent pictures... especially if there's distance involved in the transaction.

Exactly. There have been lots of posts about buying the the U.S. versus elsewhere, and the distance to travel and how hard it is to go all these distances to look at one or two horses and then THIS thread. And the breeders wonder....

RiddleMeThis

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:20 PM

You could always just do this lmaorofl

http://www.jaydeeminiaturehorses.com/Friday.jpg

Sugarbrook

Jan. 24, 2009, 10:31 PM

Or how about just hosing them off so the fur is all wet and sticks to their body. LOL.

selah

Jan. 25, 2009, 12:29 AM

You could always just do this lmaorofl

http://www.jaydeeminiaturehorses.com/Friday.jpg

:lol::lol::lol:That picture sums it up totally!!! It's like looking at two different animals. Reminds me of those candid pics in the tabloids of supermodels with no make-up, and cellulite thighs!

I am wondering if a yak pic has ever enticed anyone to come look in person, much less buy.

rideagoldenpony

Jan. 25, 2009, 12:37 AM

I am wondering if a yak pic has ever enticed anyone to come look in person, much less buy.

I've actually sold many baby yaks over the years, complete with photographic yak evidence. :lol:

Donella

Jan. 25, 2009, 01:11 AM

I am dealing with this now with a yearling friesian filly. She is major bum high, MAJOR hairy, looks nothing like the first premie site champion foal that she was. Nothing. But I sucked it up and sent photos to an interested buyer and we are now working out the details. Another lady stopped by to see her a few days ago and was wanting to purchase if this current sale doesn't work out.

I dunno. Sometimes its hard to look past everything that is going on with youngster in minus 25 degree celcius weather, but shouldn;t someone with a good eye be able to do that?

Rhyadawn

Jan. 25, 2009, 01:58 AM

If you are going to let someone come to see them, then you should be able to take a picture. I don't understand the idea that you wont take a picture and if they want to see them, they have to come in person. Does the hair not show up in person but does in a photo????

Trust me, its different. When you see them in person you can touch them to feel the conformation underneath. When you look at a picture of a fuzzy yak... yea.

Its not only that. Its winter, cold, snow, freezing rain, its awful out (currently -32 here, just checked). If someone is willing to make the couple hour drive (through the tundra - can you tell I hate winter) to come out to see your youngsters or program its a better chance that they are serious.

Thomas_1

Jan. 25, 2009, 04:11 AM

Trust me, its different. When you see them in person you can touch them to feel the conformation underneath. When you look at a picture of a fuzzy yak... yea. Of course it is and any serious buyer knows that. They also know that a youngster is going to change. I'd also say that no serious buyer of young stock makes their decision based on a photo. If they are, then they want their heads feeling!

TrueColours

Jan. 25, 2009, 07:54 AM

camohn

Jan. 25, 2009, 08:00 AM

I would worry about a buyer that cannot tell confo from a pre weaner pic (which is when they probably look better than they will until they are 3!) and understand that a foal IS going to look like a Wolly Mammoth in the winter way up North.

Thomas_1

Jan. 25, 2009, 08:47 AM

Thomas - sorry - but I disagree. Every one of my youngsters have been sold off pictures only with the exception of one from last year where the buyer was close enough to come and see him in person. The first time any of my clients actually get to see them and touch them is when they step off the van or the plane

It may be that I'm not explaining myself well and so you totally and utterly misunderstand the point I'm trying to make.

When I had my stud farm and sold youngsters I dealt with customers who made decisions based on:

- my reputation and word
- the reputation of my mare (this would include her performance record, pedigree and conformation etc)
- the reputation of my stallion or the stallion used if it wasn't mine

A photo might be used as a factor (singular) to aid a decision but it would never be the deciding factor and for certain it would NEVER be the ONLY deciding factor.

I've personally never sold a horse yet and never will do to someone I've not personally met or know well and at least seen on my premises with the horse I'm going to sell them or else known for years and been on their premises and know what they're ability and capability is when it comes to handling and managing horses.

Likewise personally I'd never buy a horse from just a photo. There's a heck of a lot I'd rank as important over and above a pretty photo of a clean horse with a shiny short coat. I'd also be VERY worried about a prospective owner of a youngster that didn't know that a photo at a point in time doesn't always reflect them at their best or indicate what they will be like in the future. I'd be pretty much heading for the hills if it came as a surprise to a prospective owner that a horse in winter had a hairy coat!

But I know it takes all sorts. Its not my world though and not a world I'd ever want to inhabit where people buy a horse from just a photo and a breeder sends it off to who knows where on the basis that the buyer liked the picture!

hansiska

Jan. 25, 2009, 09:01 AM

I agree with much of what's been said here. If they know what they're looking at, they can make a decision regardless of the length of coat. The first filly I ever sold was sold in January. My sister brought a friend over when she came to see my new horse a few years back and the friend bought the filly standing next to her on the spot. I hadn't so much as brushed that filly that day! Selling the filly wasn't even the purpose of the visit.

One thing I wanted to add: keep your distance! When photographing a woolly one, stay at a medium distance from the horse. This way, the horse's overall outline is easier to see and there's less emphasis on the coat. The day I took the photo of my filly (the large one on the link below) it was snowing, the filly's coat was easily 2" long or better, and I hadn't even groomed her:
http://www.runningwaterwarmbloods.com/index_files/Page663.htm

Good luck and keep us posted!

pinecone

Jan. 25, 2009, 09:04 AM

The clients I dealt with all have enough common sense to know that horses have coats in the winter and can see through a bit of long hair.

I agree. There may be some people who can't see past the long hair, but shouldn't anyone experienced with youngsters have a better eye and be able to see beyond yak hair? It's the same with the awkward growth phases. If someone isn't experienced enough with evaluating foals, shouldn't they have someone helping them who could see past the hair? Otherwise, I'm not sure a person with no foal experience and nobody to advise them would be the person I'd want to sell my foal to.

I'd send the pics. Besides, with no pics, won't it probably be no sale? With pics, at least there's some chance of a sale. At worst, you can weed out the buyers who don't know anything about youngsters and probably shouldn't be buying one anyhow, if they expect them to be slick and shiny in the middle of winter, or perfectly proportioned before they're at least 3. ;)

Tiki

Jan. 25, 2009, 09:08 AM

Thomas, it's a whole different world over here. You are in a very small country where distances are not so great and it's easy to meet clients or potential clients at shows and events because they're all relatively close by. For here, is someone is Massachusetts gets an inquiry from someone in Arizona it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that they would ever know each other or have come across each other anywhere anytime.

Now, once that first horse is sold, and turns out to be a gem and hopefully the person has come in person so you can get a feel for them, you have a contact in that state and maybe their friends will call you and tell you that they saw 'Sue's' new horse and do you have any more like that and then you've got a link.

BTW, Boston, MA to Tempe, AZ, for example:
Total Estimated Time: 40 hours 48 minutes
Total Estimated Distance: 2647.00 miles

And, many buyers in this country have ridden before, maybe owned horses or had neighbors with horses when they were kids and now ride rentals with an instructor or lease a horse with an instructor, but are 1st or 2nd time buyers, usually board their horses and don't know a lot about horse care and leave it to the barn owner. NO, they DON'T know about winter coats - in fact, there are indeed many, many people who have never, ever seen a horse in a true winter coat - the ones in public stables don't get to grow real winter coats, just a little thicker - and conformation and all that, but they still do OK at shows, try to find a good barn for their new horse and will hopefully do their best to take care of him.

The US and Canada don't have the history of riding schools and Pony Club that Europe and GB do. We don't have the history of keeping horses at home in many cases. It's a whole different world over here. The distances are extreme.

Look at the problems the US riders had qualifying for the Olympics. Look at the problems the Canadians had qualifying for the Olympics. Some of the Canadian and American riders had to travel 3000 miles to qualify. Some of the American riders who were training in Europe were required to fly back to California to qualify, then fly back to The Netherlands for quarantine, then on to Hong Kong. It's not the same for us.

This is actually a great way to weed out tirekickers. If they don't know that horses really have winter coats when they live out and are growing youngsters, if they can't tell conformation and gaits, they're not knowledgeable enough to buy a youngster and I don't want them to have one of mine on the 'cuteness factor'. That's one of the best ways to ruin a youngster there is. Playful foal and inexperienced, doting owner. A set up for injury and a rogue youngster like someone posted about on another thread. Not a good match.

enjoytheride

Jan. 25, 2009, 09:27 AM

So you'd rather not sell a horse then send out a picture of him in his winter coat? If someone refused to send me a picture of the horse in his winter coat I wouldn't waste my time coming out to see him even if he was 20 minutes away and I'd assume the seller wasn't serious about selling. You can clip his head, his lower legs, wash his legs and tail, blanket him the night before, hit him with some show sheen, and stand him up nice. I figure anyone who wants to come look at a horse when it's -20 outside is at least partially serious! I don't not understand horse people that have never seen a winter coat and are planning on buying a baby horse. Even if you board at a barn where the horses are clipped and kept in heat stables you have got to at some point in your life seen a hairy horse.

tri

Jan. 25, 2009, 10:33 AM

Well, I don't live in the cold cold north but we still get freezing temperatures and I WONT clip a baby's entire head and the lower legs and then have them stand in freezing cold temperatures. I just wouldn't market them in the winter, I guess.

Tom, you say you have buyers who buy off the performance record of your mares, your stallions and your reputation. That is great and the way it should be.

Unfortunately, many U.S. breeders don't have performance mares, don't breed to stallions with much performance/offspring performance records and don't have a reputation with people in sport that they even have a clue what they are talking about. All they can say is that their mare was premium at an inspection, the stallion sired so many premium foals and that "someone" told them that the horse should be able to jump.

Makes for failure all the way around regardless of a hairy photo or not.

enjoytheride

Jan. 25, 2009, 10:49 AM

You don't have to clip the entire head. I'd like to see the ears trimmed up but not naked, a bridle path, the extra long hairs on the bottom of the jaw trimmed, and the nose trimmed. Just clip up the furry ankles and trim the long hairs around the hooves. I keep that trimmed anyway so they don't get ice balls. If it's above 28 you can wash the tail and lower legs. If not you can brush really well, detangle the tail, pull the mane, and maybe use some yellow spot remover.

TrueColours

Jan. 25, 2009, 12:27 PM

It may be that I'm not explaining myself well and so you totally and utterly misunderstand the point I'm trying to make.

When I had my stud farm and sold youngsters I dealt with customers who made decisions based on:

- my reputation and word
- the reputation of my mare (this would include her performance record, pedigree and conformation etc)
- the reputation of my stallion or the stallion used if it wasn't mine

A photo might be used as a factor (singular) to aid a decision but it would never be the deciding factor and for certain it would NEVER be the ONLY deciding factor.

Thats exactly how I have sold my youngsters as well - both as babies, and on an in utero basis, where NO ONE has the luxury of getting to see any more than a big black dot and thats it ... ;) ... but in the majority of cases, the deal is already done before the foal arrives, based on prior full siblings and the reputation of all involved - sire, dam and breeder ...

I've personally never sold a horse yet and never will do to someone I've not personally met or know well and at least seen on my premises with the horse I'm going to sell them or else known for years and been on their premises and know what they're ability and capability is when it comes to handling and managing horses.

Likewise personally I'd never buy a horse from just a photo.

And I guess on these points we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" then ... ;)

I havent met, in person, my clients from Australia and Scotland, nor the ones from the West Coast of the USA and Canada, nor the ones I am currently conversing with in South Africa either and never in a million years would I say to any of them "Sorry, but I cannot sell this youngster to you as we have never met in person, nor have I seen your facilities"

Perhaps that angle works for you being in a more condensed and smaller geographical region, but I know the majority of sellers in North America would never adopt the same method of doing business over here or they would find their sales plummeting which is the very last thing they could afford to have happen, especially now ...

poneez

Jan. 25, 2009, 12:45 PM

Try taking videos of in foal broodmares in a couple of feet of snow!

To be honest, aside from the inconvenient hairiness of it all, it's also just downright dangerous. We end up shipping out to our neighbour's arena.

Luckily our kiddos are selling based on their parents bloodlines and performance careers. I'm certainly looking forward to spring, and taking photos that don't depict what looks like a character out of Star Wars. It's a particular laugh taking shots of the ponies....

Thomas_1

Jan. 26, 2009, 08:04 AM

I havent met, in person, my clients from Australia and Scotland, nor the ones from the West Coast of the USA and Canada, nor the ones I am currently conversing with in South Africa either and never in a million years would I say to any of them "Sorry, but I cannot sell this youngster to you as we have never met in person, nor have I seen your facilities"

Perhaps that angle works for you being in a more condensed and smaller geographical region, but I know the majority of sellers in North America would never adopt the same method of doing business over here or they would find their sales plummeting which is the very last thing they could afford to have happen, especially now ...

I suspect you are making some huge presumptions.

Whilst I might well live in a piddling little island that is nowhere near as important, large or grand as the USA my experience selling horses is not as narrow as you presume.

I've sold to America, Australia, Holland, Germany, France, Austria, Belgium to name but a few. So we've exported horses (and dogs!)

I am very aware that different folks have different ways of going about things. If that weren't the case then this thread wouldn't have started with a breeder having a dilemma and a question about whether or not to send a photo of a young hairy horse that isn't looking it's best.

The thread asked for opinion and I wasn't aware that there needed to be agreement at all. Likewise I'm not personally convinced that there is actually an "American way". In fact other posters who are in the USA also seem to think it's a bit of a bizarre thing to be in a quandry over. Truth is perhaps if your experience is different you might want to reflect on why that is.

As I said it always worked for me to send photos of a scruffy gangly looking foal that was at the stage it looked like it was designed by a committee. Likewise it worked for me and the stock I sold to ensure that I never sold a horse and never will do to someone I've not personally met or know well and at least seen on my premises with the horse I'm going to sell them or else known for years and been on their premises and know what they're ability and capability is when it comes to handling and managing horses.

Be clear though I don't adopt that strategy because I live on a piddling island and it's always a doddle getting to meet people because I always sell to my neighbours.

The strategy I adopted because I feel that to do anything less might increase the risk of my stock ending up in inappropriate homes with inappropriate owners. That, at the end of the day, is and always was my priority consideration. If it means I limited the market and meant I lost some sales, then tough! I never had a stud farm and bred horses because I felt I needed to just secure sales and money. It was always about trying my very best to breed quality animals that would end up wanted and put into totally suitable homes to realise their best potential.

Thomas_1

Jan. 26, 2009, 08:25 AM

Tiki,

I don't know where you've been in the UK or what you did but I felt a response might address some of the perceptions, and myths contained here and bring some reality to the perspective

Thomas, it's a whole different world over here. You are in a very small country where distances are not so great and it's easy to meet clients or potential clients at shows and events because they're all relatively close by. My previous post explains. But appreciate that it's not unusual for stud farms here to export. There's a heck of a lot of UK horses gone off to pastures new.

BTW, Boston, MA to Tempe, AZ, for example:
Total Estimated Time: 40 hours 48 minutes
Total Estimated Distance: 2647.00 miles
Scottish borders to Devon - 450 on piddling little windy congested roads = 9 hours!

Fortunately though we have planes and internal flights and nowadays things like video and conference phone calls can broker initial conversations and help to ascertain if the journey and planning to make it is worth it ;)

And, many buyers in this country have ridden before, maybe owned horses or had neighbors with horses when they were kids and now ride rentals with an instructor or lease a horse with an instructor, but are 1st or 2nd time buyers, usually board their horses and don't know a lot about horse care and leave it to the barn owner. We have all that in the UK too.

NO, they DON'T know about winter coats - in fact, there are indeed many, many people who have never, ever seen a horse in a true winter coat - the ones in public stables don't get to grow real winter coats, just a little thicker - and conformation and all that, but they still do OK at shows, try to find a good barn for their new horse and will hopefully do their best to take care of him. We've some here too have never seen a horse in a full coat. Though personally I've never yet met an equestrian centre proprietor that doesn't let their client know when they're going to clip an owner's horse and charge them for that service. Likewise I've never yet met an actual owner that didn't know they grew coats coming up to winter and got shut of them in the spring..... even it was just someone complaining about excess hair sticking to the lip gloss ;)

Got to say that I'm of the view that if someone is really so ignorant that they didn't know the basics then I wouldn't personally want to be letting a horse of mine go there. And I'd decide in a heartbeat a youngster isn't going there!

But same here as there, some breeders don't give a damn and so long as they're getting paid, the horse will be sent on it's merry way.

The US and Canada don't have the history of riding schools and Pony Club that Europe and GB do. You may be surprised. The UK pony club is a meagre 80 years old. So the experience there is within a couple of generations of young riders. I believe yours is about 25 years old, so the experience is within the generation of existing riders.

We don't have the history of keeping horses at home in many cases. Far and away the majority of owners here keep their horses at livery yards.

It's a whole different world over here. The distances are extreme. Yep I know

This is actually a great way to weed out tirekickers. If they don't know that horses really have winter coats when they live out and are growing youngsters, if they can't tell conformation and gaits, they're not knowledgeable enough to buy a youngster and I don't want them to have one of mine on the 'cuteness factor'. That's one of the best ways to ruin a youngster there is. Playful foal and inexperienced, doting owner. A set up for injury and a rogue youngster like someone posted about on another thread. Not a good match. I agree. There's plenty of folks here also sell foals to the first person that phones up and gets a cheque cleared. But it's not for me and it never will be.

horsepix76

Jan. 26, 2009, 08:39 AM

So - for those of you in the same position, how the heck do you handle these enquiries asking for updated pictures at this time of year when your youngsters look like crap, but you really would love the opportunity to sell them??? And clipping them and having them live under blankets for the rest of the winter would be a totally crazy thing to do as well ...

The barn I work with took all their foals to a friend's indoor arena and made videos. Yes, they look like woolly mammoths, but you can see the quality of the movement. This is the first year they've done this and the first year they've had serious shoppers in the winter time.

Best of luck to you!

Spike

Jan. 26, 2009, 08:44 AM

yes! Videos are better than pictures when they are in their winter coat. Interestingly, I've sold 2 fillies right in their fugly phases. I.E. december, in Quebec.. I was thinking in my head "they will come, see, and ran back home completely afraid" lol.. Wrong... A good foal is a good foal, and sometime you even get people who think they are sooooo lovely with all that woolyhairs!! :eek:

murph

Jan. 26, 2009, 11:01 AM

A timely thread for me as I'm going through the exact same thing. Lots of buyer inquiries despite the bad economy and everyone wants current photos rather than those taken last summer on the youngsters. Ours live out and some are hairy in the extreme. I have a cremello weanling that honestly looks like a mountain goat! I understand the dilemna. It's not that a lot of buyers don't realize they get winter coats it's just that so many of them think "gorgeous" when they see the photos of the sleek summer-coated youngsters and "ugly" when they see them in winter woolies. They just can't see past it and really a lot of one-horse warm-barn boarding-out type of ammy owners don't have the experience to see past it.

I bit the bullet and braved a snowstorm and -15 temps yesterday to get a few of them done. I didn't do any clipping or trimming at all as it's been -30 or more at night lately and I couldn't bear to take any hair off them at all, just wouldn't be fair. Also with some of the mega beards some of them are sporting it would leave their heads looking like a sheared sheep at the bottom to even get close to the bone structure.

Here's one of my results and actually I don't think it looks too bad [edit] http://www.missionridgefarm.net/simbalarge.html Whaddya think?! Our riding ring was actually almost 3' deep in snow, my husband went out with the plow and plowed the whole thing so I could even get a horse in there, worked pretty good! The colt's hairy and his coat is way darker than summer but stood up right for a conformation shot and some fun action shots and personally I think the shots don't show him off too badly. Besides when the buyer takes him home like this and likes him now, boy will they get a happy surprise in the spring when they see the even nicer horse underneath the yakskin :D

erinwillow

Jan. 27, 2009, 10:19 AM

Hi All,

I had another "aha" moment with this thread last night. . .ahem. . I will share it with you :winkgrin:

A few years ago a fellow Connemara breeder was selling a gorgeous filly by an imported stallion and a very very nice mare. The filly hadn't sold as a weanling so let's call her Breeder X kept very nice up to date photos of the filly on her website. Another breeder, let's call her Breeder Y also had a similarly aged filly though not as nice and a 1/2bred. However, I remember seeing some of the YAK photos from Breeder A's website and I will admit I said to myself "ugh, those photos are horrible". Meanwhile Breeder Y's photos were always shiny and glistening. . the pony always seemed to be posing for Pony Vogue magazine or something :yes: At any rate, not to get too bogged down with details, I remember the next Spring Breeder A again posted updated photos of her filly sans YAK fur and I was swept away!!! She was gorgeous and I kept saying WOW she has really turned into quite a Beauty. In a sense I think that having those YAK photos to compare to the lovely swan she became actually worked in the fillies favor--needless to say she sold about three weeks after the new Spring photos came out. My point?? Sometimes those YAK photos are helpful :winkgrin: Besides, the shiny pony didn't sell for another year :cool: